What Chris Hitchens and Jonah Goldberg both got wrong
Christopher Hitchens
In his atheistic diatribe “God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything,” the late Christopher Hitchens revisited the various evils and excesses committed in the name of religion over the centuries. And they are many.
Yet what about the brutal excesses of secular, atheistic regimes, such as Stalin’s USSR, Hitler’s Third Reich, Mao’s China and Pol Pot’s Khmer Rouge? Doesn’t their existence challenge the claim that it is somehow religion that is at fault, rather than something still deeper in the human psyche?
In response, Hitchens offered what I consider to be an intellectually lazy answer, an answer designed to try to win a debate rather than get at the truth:
The regimes of Stalin, Mao, Hitler and Pol Pot were also religious in nature, Hitchens argued, because they substituted the worship of an individual or ideology for the worship of a god. Therefore, all evil that those regimes did must be totted up on religion’s side of the ledger, leaving the secular world unstained.
With that contention — voila! — Hitchen’s problem was solved, or so he claimed.
In a 2007 tour to promote “God Is Not Great”, Hitchens traveled the country debating religious experts about its theme. Here in Atlanta, he crossed rhetorical swords with Tim Jackson, a professor of Christian ethics at Emory’s Candler School of Theology. And Jackson, to his credit, refused to condone Hitchen’s cheap debating tactic:
Timothy Jackson
“If we can embrace such doublespeak that North Korea is a religious institution, a religious regime, and understand Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot as fundamentally religious, then religion has become an ugly meaningless term,” Jackson pointed out.
“We’re all sinful and we can all contribute to horrific injustice, whether we’re believers or not,” the professor reminded the crowd. “….the worm at the heart of human nature is deeper than that.”
(An audio of the Hitchens/Jackson debate is available here.).
In that regard at least, Hitchens shared a lot with his one-time neighbor in New York, conservative writer Jonah Goldberg. In his 2008 book “Liberal Fascism,” Goldberg echoed Hitchens by alleging that all totalitarianism, including fascism, is by nature liberal in its origins.
Clearly, communist regimes in the USSR and China were brutal and tyrannical. But what of, say, Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, which are historically treated as examples of right-wing dictatorships? Do they not demonstrate that totalitarianism is a temptation to which both the right and left might succumb?
To Goldberg, the answer is no. He argues that Nazi Germany was actually a left-wing manifestation that drew its poison from the wells of liberalism and socialism. In fact, in his view of the world the phrase “right-wing dictatorship” is an impossible contradiction and a null set. Conservatives by definition could never be tempted to seek absolute power; thus, those who seek absolute power could never be conservative.
In a new posting at National Review, where he works as a columnist, Goldberg claims to have found further evidence of his thesis in a two-part series on Nazi Germany that was originally published in 1932 in The Atlantic and has now been republished on the Internet.
(The articles by Nicolas Fairweather are astonishing in their own right, demonstrating just how predictable the coming nightmare really was. Everything — the attempted genocide of the Jews, the invasion first of France and then of the Soviet Union — was all well-known and understood by those who cared to do so long before Hitler even gained power.)
Jonah Goldberg
However, when you read the articles cited, you realize once again how thin and downright silly Goldberg’s argument really is. For example, the 1932 Atlantic article lists “the principal articles of Hitler’s political faith,” which included:
“(Hitler’s) violent animosity to Marxian Socialism as in essence opposed to his ideal of a nationally minded people and a racial state. He condemns the Socialism of Marx as a poisonous teaching which by its humanitarianism, its internationalism, and its pacifism — all legacies of the unnatural and unwholesome democracy of the French Revolution — operates to undermine the clean ideal of Aryan (that is, German) overlordship.”
Hitler saw “Marxian Socialism” as a Jewish invention, “the principal tool by which they insinuate themselves into healthy, pure blooded, racial states.” He despised labor unions and expressed contempt for the common man. As the Atlantic piece reported:
“Class warfare, it appeared (to Hitler), was necessarily a destroyer of nationalism. In reacting against the internationalism and class-consciousness of the orthodox Socialists (’Marxists’ is the term Hitler always uses), he has made himself the outstanding opponent of all Communistic tendencies.”
Remember, this is all in an article cited as evidence in favor of Goldberg’s thesis.
In one sense, I am admittedly rehashing old ground — both the Goldberg book and the Hitchens book were published years ago. However, as the 1932 Atlantic pieces demonstrate, bad ideas and bad history can have profound consequences if left unchallenged.
It is dangerous for any group of people to wrap themselves in a belief that they are immune to the temptations of power, because once you make that mistake, those temptations become all the harder to resist. As George Orwell documented so well, for example, a similar arrogance on the left during the ’20s, ’30s and ’40s led many liberals to dismiss evidence of just how brutal the Soviet Union had become.
There will always be those who are eager to take as much power as possible; likewise, there will always be those who are willing to surrender that power to others. Political philosophy and religious faith make no one exempt to either temptation.
Because, as the good professor noted:
“The worm at the heart of human nature is deeper than that.”
– Jay Bookman
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903 comments Add your comment
USMC
April 23rd, 2012
3:13 pm
“USMC’s having a slow news day so I thought I would give him something more interesting to talk about than Edwards.”–(non)Taxpayer
Yeah, I guess non-Taxpayer is still regretting her vote for John Edwards… Stings, doesn’t it???
Jay
April 23rd, 2012
3:14 pm
“However, you can’t ignore the fact that Hitler came to power on the backs of labor unions, just like Lenin (and then Stalin) did.”
Hitler despised labor unions, Jimmy. Immediately upon taking power, he crushed them as a favor to the German industrialists, throwing their leaders in concentration camps and denying them the right to strike or bargain collectively. As William Shirer wrote in his classic “Rise and Fall of the Third Reich”:
“Deprived of his trade unions, collective bargaining and the right to strike, the German worker in the Third Reich became an industrial serf, bound to his master, the employer, much as medieval peasants had been bound to the lord of the manor.”
In other words, Jimmy, you could not be more wrong.
USMC
April 23rd, 2012
3:16 pm
“Sorry, you need another card…trying to put someone a heatbeat away from the president versus a lowly representive?…..”–Mick
Cynthia McKinney On Her Run For President
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=96134188
in other words
April 23rd, 2012
3:16 pm
“Hitler despised labor unions, Jimmy.”
As well as Jews, Christians, artists, NY Yankees and black people.
Paul
April 23rd, 2012
3:18 pm
carlosgvv
“So, you think you know more than Nobel prize winning Ph.D mathematicians and physicists. ”
I’m butting in only because when I see this kind of an appeal to authority, I have to ask: do ALL Nobel prize-winning Ph.D mathematicians and physicists agree with each other on this topic?
If not, you’re simply siding with the camp you favor and are summarily discounting the other Nobel prize-winning PhD’s as wrong.
Bruno
April 23rd, 2012
3:19 pm
So, you think you know more than Nobel prize winning Ph.D mathematicians and physicists. And this is because, in your little mind, scripture tops science.
Not sure how you took this message away from my above post, but I’ll have to refer you to Moderate Line’s quote about Socrates: “when informed he was the wisest man in Greece responded I am not wise because I know nothing but changed his mind when he realized he was the only who realized he did not know anything.”
From my perspective, carols, you are attempting to replace religious “certainty” with scientific “certainty”. A fool’s errand in either case. That’s all I’m saying. I don’t know anything, but neither does anyone else, which I can easily prove to you.
You are right about one thing. When I see how prevalant this sort of profound ignorance is, I do tend to get a little depressed.
Again, I can’t know your mindset, but your existentialist depression reminds me of how I felt after reading Jean Paul Sartre for the first time.
stands for decibels
April 23rd, 2012
3:19 pm
Hitler despised labor unions, Jimmy
Jimmy and several others here must’ve put their fingers in their ears and gone “la la la can’t HEAR you…” upon hearing Pastor Niemoller’s bit about the Nazis coming for the trade unionists.
TaxPayer
April 23rd, 2012
3:20 pm
USMC,
I don’t recall ever seeing Edwards on the ticket here in Georgia. And as for the (non) attribute, allow me to take this opportunity to thank Republicans and Bush for those Bush tax cuts again. Did you know that a married couple can “earn” over $85,000 on investments and take a standard deduction and pay zero fed or payroll taxes. You rock, dude. Vote Republican and give me another tax cut.
Jimmy62
April 23rd, 2012
3:22 pm
Jay, I said he used them to get to power. I didn’t say he was buddies with them after he came to power. I even mention how he considered them useful idiots, much like Lenin and the Bolsheviks. Does useful idiots sound like something you would call people you respect?
In other words, your reading comprehension skills need some work. I used to earn a little extra money tutoring the SAT, maybe I could help you out.
JOE COOL~DoWnToWn THUG
April 23rd, 2012
3:22 pm
ANOTHER Mitt Flip Flop……….
Mitt Romney NOW Backs Student Loan Proposal From Barack Obama
THEN:
“It would be popular for me to stand up and say, ‘I’m going to give you government money to pay for your college,’ but I’m not going to promise that,” he said in March. “And don’t expect the government to forgive the debt that you take on.”
NOW:
The former Massachusetts governor made his remarks during his first press availability in well over a month. He returned to the podium to offer his support for the idea, after the event ended without a reporter having asked him about it.
“Particularly with the number of college graduates that can’t find work and can only find work well beneath their skill level, I fully support the effort to extend the low interest rate on student loans,” Romney said. “There was some concern that that would expire halfway through the year and I support extending the temporary relief on interest rates on students as a result of student loans obviously, in part because of the extraordinarily poor conditions in the job market.”
stands for decibels
April 23rd, 2012
3:23 pm
I don’t recall ever seeing Edwards on the ticket here in Georgia
Actually, he was on the Dem. 2008 presidential primary ballot in GA; however, he had officially suspended his operations shortly before the Super Tuesday primary.
Jimmy62
April 23rd, 2012
3:23 pm
Jay, are you denying that Hitler used unions to get to power?
Stands for decibels: I guess you just take what Jay said at face value. Too bad it does not represent my statements. Nice strawman arguments you guys got going.
Fred ™
April 23rd, 2012
3:24 pm
What an odd topic for this place. I liked the one right below but alas I missed it.
Bruno
April 23rd, 2012
3:25 pm
I’m butting in only because when I see this kind of an appeal to authority, I have to ask: do ALL Nobel prize-winning Ph.D mathematicians and physicists agree with each other on this topic?
Paul–Perhaps you can appreciate my frustration when Jay or JamVet make a similar Appeal to Authority when it comes to AGW. In the end, Truth is not something that can be voted on. It matters not the least to me what % of scientists agree to a particular theory. If it can’t be backed up with reproducible experiments, then it’s conjecture. The History of Science is filled with consensus opinions which later changed with new information. The Ptolemaic model of Planetary Motion immediately comes to mind.
Mitt Romney vs Reality
April 23rd, 2012
3:27 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=858vyozbpWc&feature=relmfu
Mr_B
April 23rd, 2012
3:27 pm
“I even mention how he considered them useful idiots, much like Lenin and the Bolsheviks.”
I’m sure you’re prepared to provide a relevant citation for that statement.
stands for decibels
April 23rd, 2012
3:28 pm
Jimmy, the “they” in your post didn’t exactly make it clear you meant to include Hitler in with Lenin and Stalin, particularly since the term “useful idiots” isn’t generally associated with Hitler.
Anyway, I’m sorry if your tender feefees were hurted.
Bruno
April 23rd, 2012
3:28 pm
One last Feynman quote, and have to take a break:
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.”
I’m thinking the same can be said for blogging…….
Fred ™
April 23rd, 2012
3:28 pm
Paul–Perhaps you can appreciate my frustration when Jay or JamVet make a similar Appeal to Authority when it comes to AGW. In the end, Truth is not something that can be voted on. It matters not the least to me what % of scientists agree to a particular theory. If it can’t be backed up with reproducible experiments, then it’s conjecture. The History of Science is filled with consensus opinions which later changed with new information. The Ptolemaic model of Planetary Motion immediately comes to mind.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Amen. And lets never forget the flat earth society or the sun revolves around the earth society…………
Science isn’t a democracy and virtually every major breakthrough has been AGAINST the “common wisdom of the day.”
Jay
April 23rd, 2012
3:30 pm
Jimmy, you’re compounding your embarrassment.
Jimmy62
April 23rd, 2012
3:30 pm
I don’t know that he used the phrase “useful idiots” but that he used unions as one of many tools in his rise to power is pretty undeniable, and it doesn’t take a great leap of logic to realize he thought they were fools he could use and then discard once he got what he wanted. I’m not going to waste my time finding citations, read any book on Hitler’s rise to power.
Jimmy62
April 23rd, 2012
3:31 pm
Jay: You are compounding your lack of reading comprehension skills.
Are you people denying that Hitler used unions to help him get to power? I never talked about what he did once he was in power. But that he used the unions to get to power is pretty well known history.
Paul
April 23rd, 2012
3:31 pm
Joe Cool
“ANOTHER Mitt Flip Flop……….
Mitt Romney NOW Backs Student Loan Proposal From Barack Obama ”
So you disagree with Mitt and Pres Obama on the proposal?
GT
April 23rd, 2012
3:32 pm
Read James Henley Thornwell or Robert Lewis Dabney and you will find theologians redefining the word of God, to a tune of slavery was sanctioned by God. “The world is a battlefield–Christians and atheism the combatants: and the progress of humanity the stakes” It is very difficult to follow how the right and their hatreds have become the lambs of God until you study the history of southern politics and see how far off the word they have come and still call themselves religious. One selfish voice invents and thousands repeat until language mean nothing, lies become truth, documented by uneducated thugs reading red as blue, large as small. No real religious man would misinterpret the Bible in this manner, so how can religion be blamed for an impostor?
Bruno
April 23rd, 2012
3:32 pm
Special for carlos:
“What I am going to tell you about is what we teach our physics students in the third or fourth year of graduate school… It is my task to convince you not to turn away because you don’t understand it. You see my physics students don’t understand it… That is because I don’t understand it. Nobody does.”
― Richard P. Feynman, QED: The Strange Theory of Light and Matter
TaxPayer
April 23rd, 2012
3:33 pm
Jimmy, you’re compounding your embarrassment.
A trait that many a Republican share.
ragnar danneskjold
April 23rd, 2012
3:33 pm
I disagee with the thesis, and believe Goldberg has the better argument. All leftism is founded on the belief that people are too stupid to manage their affairs, requiring the intervention of overlord/saviors to take care of them. The theory goes back to Plato’s republic, and has always failed in practice, for reasons discovered in 1776 by Adam Smith.
There is no leftism without a cult figure leading the masses. That profile fits the allegedly “right-wing” totalitarian governments such as Nazi Germany and Mussolini’s Italy. How different from Mussolini’s Italy – “he made the railroads run on time” – is the current US government effort to tell private entities, such as churches, what they will and will not cover in health insurance?
Brosephus™
April 23rd, 2012
3:34 pm
In my own case, it came down to bread-based “stuffing” cooked inside the turkey vs. cornbread-based “dressing” cooked in a pan. Hard to keep the “dressing” from drying out.
Somebody doesn’t know how to cook. I don’t have a problem with cornbread dressing being dry. That sounds like a recipe that’s out of whack somewhere.
————————-
Doom
Left you a response downstairs…
Misty Fyed
April 23rd, 2012
3:34 pm
Any time government is over centralized it is far too easy for one person to become the embodiment of a particular movement. Democrats need centralization because they need access to everyone’s wealth for some type of redistribution or wealth equity program. Republicans need centralization to ensure unfettered access to wealth at whatever cost. Both need centralization to control what our kids are being taught.
This sure makes me thankful for our Bill of Rights and the separation of powers that was established here. It’s not perfect but nothing that relies on the integrity of the individual ever will be.
UNCLE SAMANTHA
April 23rd, 2012
3:35 pm
Reviewing a transcript of the opening statement of the chief U.S. counsel in the Nuremberg Trials, we found the Nazis:
Seized all funds of labor unions and arrested union leaders, sending them to concentration camps.
Ordered that no workers organizations, except ones created by Hitler, would exist.
Replaced collective bargaining with Hitler-appointed “trustees” to regulate the conditions of all labor contracts.
So, Hitler abolished all unions and collective bargaining by decree, not with legislation. And he used force to liquidate the unions that did exist.
now thats power
Jimmy62
April 23rd, 2012
3:36 pm
This is hilarious. It’s a basic fact of history that no historians even argue about that Hitler used unions to help him get to power. And you guys are all ganging up and calling me a fool for asserting such. Have any of you read a book? Say Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich? From your comments, it’s pretty obvious many of you are ignorant of basic facts about the interwar period.
Jay
April 23rd, 2012
3:36 pm
Most of the trade unions in pre-Hitler Germany were part of the Social Democratic Party, which was Hitler’s most powerful opponent.
That’s why he moved so quickly to crush them.
TaxPayer
April 23rd, 2012
3:38 pm
Are you people denying that Hitler used unions to help him get to power?
Did they have locals such as the United Fascists Local 138 and did they have regular meetings where they voted on things using secret ballots and did they pay union dues… so many questions…
JOE COOL~DoWnToWn THUG
April 23rd, 2012
3:38 pm
Paul
April 23rd, 2012
3:31 pm
Nope, just pointing out Mittens ability to flip like a cirque du soleil performer. He has such a gift.
Jimmy62
April 23rd, 2012
3:38 pm
Uncle Samantha: All of that happened AFTER Hitler rose to power. That in no way contradicts my point. He used left wing labor union and party fools to help him to get to power. What happened after he got power is a different story, and not what I was talking about.
I’m done. You guys go read a history book and come back and talk.
Jay
April 23rd, 2012
3:38 pm
Ragnar, the nonsense-to-word ratio in that post approaches infinity.
Bruno
April 23rd, 2012
3:40 pm
Amen. And lets never forget the flat earth society or the sun revolves around the earth society…………
Fred–In my brief time rubbing elbows with some of the top Scientists/Mathematicians around, I discovered two distinct personality types. The most brilliant folks, to a person , were all extremely humble people who always made no pretense about how little they (we) really knew. Then there was a second group, composed of people like our own Taxpayer, who crowed on with great certainty about how smart they were, always wanting to trump up how many degrees or awards they won.
GT
April 23rd, 2012
3:42 pm
What does God say of wealth? The very perception of wealth being your own is counter to Jesus’ teaching. Or as the old country song goes, “I’ve never seen a Uhaul hooked up behind a hearse.”
ragnar danneskjold
April 23rd, 2012
3:42 pm
Dear Jay @ 3:38, your rejoinder is a mark of failure, as usual.
Paul
April 23rd, 2012
3:43 pm
“people are too stupid to manage their affairs, requiring the intervention of overlord/saviors to take care of them. ”
I thought that was Newt’s line about himself?
TaxPayer
April 23rd, 2012
3:43 pm
Perhaps Bruno would be so kind as to provide us with one of his famous ratios of posts by myself touting my accomplishments versus his own. Just for kicks.
Jay
April 23rd, 2012
3:43 pm
Jimmy cites Shirer. Very well, let’s see what Shirer has to report about circumstances in 1930, three years before Hitler took over:
“The month of September 1930 marked a turning point in the road that was leading the Germans inexorably toward the Third Reich. The surprising success of the Nazi Party in the national elections convinced not only millions of ordinary people but many leaders in business and in the Army that perhaps here was an upsurge that could not be stopped. They might not like the party’s demagoguery and its vulgarity, but on the other hand it was arousing the old
feelings of German patriotism and nationalism which had been so muted during the first ten years of the Republic. It promised to lead the German people away from communism, socialism, trade-unionism and the futilities of democracy. Above all, it had caught fire throughout the Reich. It was a success.”
In 1930, it promised to lead the German people away from communism, socialism, trade-unionism and the futilities of democracy.
Paul
April 23rd, 2012
3:45 pm
Joe Cool
Look on the bright side. Better to get it done early so no surprises after the election like the Left had with Pres Obama…..
Fred ™
April 23rd, 2012
3:46 pm
Misty Fyed: Democrats need centralization because they need access to everyone’s wealth for some type of redistribution or wealth equity program. Republicans need centralization to ensure unfettered access to wealth at whatever cost. Both need centralization to control what our kids are being taught.
That was brilliant. Did you come up with that or get it elsewhere. If it’s original, good damn analysis. If you paraphrased someone else, thanks, I’ve never heard that before. Either way, nice summation.
And off topic, for some reason I want some Yankee cornbread (sweet) with a little jalapeno in it. Maybe even some corn kernels………. and then some of USinUK’s curried tomato soup to dunk it in. yummy.
But I have to go fix a drier so I get NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5QGkOGZubQ&list=PL7B626D544F671E2C&index=12&feature=plpp_video
Religion vs Man
April 23rd, 2012
3:47 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFP6VUGwmAg
UNCLE SAMANTHA
April 23rd, 2012
3:47 pm
Jimmy
yes he used the labor unions
you are correct…………..
just like all politicians and parties use workers
i am just observing his absolute power once he did win………….
a great example is the democratic party has been championing the rise of the occupy wall street crowd and the evil of the 1%,,,,,,,,,,,, but after “work” and at night at the campaign fund raisers, Obama and his party are collecting $10k-$50k per plate dinners from that 1%
Whatever
April 23rd, 2012
3:49 pm
Jay,
I didn’t say no one can be moral. I said there is no authority for absolute morality. Two different things. If you and I disagree on what is moral then who is correct?
Fred ™
April 23rd, 2012
3:49 pm
The most brilliant folks, to a person , were all extremely humble people who always made no pretense about how little they (we) really knew. Then there was a second group, composed of people like our own Taxpayer, who crowed on with great certainty about how smart they were, always wanting to trump up how many degrees or awards they won.
LOL I’m married. I am told several times a day how stupid I am so I don;t have to worry about getting a big head. My concern is I wonder if I have enough brains to come in out of the rain………. or to even know that it really IS raining……..
jconservative
April 23rd, 2012
3:49 pm
“There are three words that can always perplex a Christian, “Prove it objectively.””
There are three words that can always perplex an atheist, “Prove it objectively.”
UNCLE SAMANTHA
April 23rd, 2012
3:50 pm
an no i am not compairing the democratic party to the nazi party
just observing the irony of the use of different groups
just like the republicans use the right to life mantra but in conjunction with the belief in the death penalty……….
USMC
April 23rd, 2012
3:50 pm
“All leftism is founded on the belief that people are too stupid to manage their affairs, requiring the intervention of overlord/saviors to take care of them….”–Ragnar
This is proven over and over again on a daily basis by Jay’s Loyal cadre of barking seals.
Jay
April 23rd, 2012
3:52 pm
“I didn’t say no one can be moral. I said there is no authority for absolute morality. Two different things. If you and I disagree on what is moral then who is correct?”
We are each correct for ourself.
Even if you claim the existence of an authority for absolute morality, how and through whom is that morality communicated? Do all Catholics think alike — all Baptists, all Hindus or Muslims? No. In the end, it is a personal decision because we all have free will.
Paul
April 23rd, 2012
3:55 pm
jconservative
Atheist to believer: “You can’t describe God so He can’t exist.”
Believer to atheist: “Tell me what this stuff you call salt tastes like.”
USMC
April 23rd, 2012
3:56 pm
Rush Limbaugh (LOL!) told us today that Obama is waging a “War on Success”
They BOTH suck
April 23rd, 2012
3:57 pm
“There are three words that can always perplex an atheist, ‘Prove it objectively’.”
The atheist doesn’t have to prove the existence or non-existence of a God.
Without putting words into that blogger’s mouth, I believe he was saying that outside of someone’s “faith”, you can prove it objectively…….
Doesn’t mean that a God or Gods does not exists, but it isn’t on the atheist to objectively prove someone’s God is anything more than the manifestation of their “faith and belief” in that God
I noticed you didn’t take anytime to prove the blogger as being incorrect
Bruno
April 23rd, 2012
3:58 pm
Ragnar, the nonsense-to-word ratio in that post approaches infinity.
I think ragnar makes a few good points there. Though you Lefties are loathe to admit it, Obama was elevated to rock star status by his followers and the media leading up to the 2008 election. Several posters here referenced being in downtown Atlanta following the election and described a scene of mass jubilation, with strangers hugging strangers.
As for the dangers of over-centralizing power, I think History has a lot to say about that………
GT
April 23rd, 2012
3:59 pm
Fred ™ why is brilliant what you want to hear? And what is good for the country? Plantations, picking cotton, cheap labor, is that where we want to go? That is brilliant too? For the plantation owner, is that where you come from looking at this? Hitler killing Jews, must of been someone who agreed with that too, though I’ll be damn if you can find them now. I bet someone called Hitler brilliant back in the 1940s. Not a Jewish person, probably a white guy, same one who calls Rush billiant today, and if you can redefine billiant, there are no limits where it can take you.
TaxPayer
April 23rd, 2012
4:00 pm
Rush Limbaugh spoke to USMC. I’m shocked!
barking frog
April 23rd, 2012
4:00 pm
Reality is that no one knows
what reality is.
Jay
April 23rd, 2012
4:00 pm
And Ragnar, if you argue that “everybody who seeks centralized power is liberal,” then yes, of course, only liberals seek centralized power. You’ve won the debate simply in how you define the terms. It’s like saying “all criminals are conservatives,” which of course would mean that only conservatives are criminal.
But as history clearly demonstrates, “everybody who seeks centralized power” is NOT liberal, which is why your post is, well, total nonsense.
Bruno
April 23rd, 2012
4:03 pm
Perhaps Bruno would be so kind as to provide us with one of his famous ratios of posts by myself touting my accomplishments versus his own. Just for kicks.
TP–When I came to this blog, I came with an open mind. And as my current blog “friendships” demonstrate, political affiliation has nothing to do with who I enjoy chatting with. If you can’t see how and why you come across as an arrogant jerk here, then obviously I can’t help you.
GT
April 23rd, 2012
4:04 pm
Blue laws are created by a centralized power.
Matti
April 23rd, 2012
4:06 pm
My fave of the day:
….the nonsense-to-word ratio in that post approaches infinity.
SO stealing that!
They BOTH suck
April 23rd, 2012
4:07 pm
Man
How quickly some on the right forget how the right leaning talk show host, writers and commentators as well as many who voted for him ( I know several personally ) who just praised and praised ole W……. at least for 6 yrs……..
Some still love him, but many started in 06 seeing what others had been seeing for 6 yrs
Yes all sides to do it and many people praise Obama beyond his accomplishments. With that said, many on the right need not think back to far to notices some of the praise they were heaping on Bush as if he were a what? ROCK STAR
Heck.. every single one of the Republican candidates want some of Reagan’s ROCK STAR status…. they trip over each other to show how Reagan they are
But have your fun and keep those blinders on
That stuff only goes on with the “left”…………………
hahahahahahhaa
I love the “open mindless” and “objectivity” of closed minds
TaxPayer
April 23rd, 2012
4:07 pm
I see Bruno could not support his claim with a little science. You know. Data. Observation of an occurrence and tally of said occurences. Instead he resorts to his usual ploy of accusation of the baseless and unfounded and unwarranted variety. Good show, Bruno.
Jay
April 23rd, 2012
4:08 pm
Bruno:
The short rebuttal to the claim about the left elevating leaders to godlike status, while the right does not, would consist of two words: Ronald Reagan.
As to the excitement caused by Obama’s election, it wasn’t because he was viewed as a messiah, as you suggest. It was because he was our first black president, which represented a coming of age for this country and a validation of what we tell ourselves this country is about. Even George W. Bush felt moved at the time to comment upon it, calling it “a triumph of the American story”.
USMC
April 23rd, 2012
4:09 pm
“Rush Limbaugh spoke to USMC. I’m shocked!”–Taxpayer
Yeah, He speaks to us every day when we listen ton him religiously.
He tells me what to think and I simply regurgitate it and act as though I know what I am talking about.
It makes life easy. LOL!
So, Taxpayer admits to not paying taxes, Ironic…
Bruno
April 23rd, 2012
4:09 pm
We are each correct for ourself.
Point blank, Jay, do you think morality is:
(1) Absolute
(2) Relative
(3) Some combination thereof.
Personally, I think morality should be viewed in absolute terms, with some relativity built in. Your statement seems to suggest that morality can only be rightfully administered in some Relativistic way. The only problem with Moral Relativism, of course, is that ultimately it says nothing, and leaves everyone free to decide what’s “right” for them.
Jay
April 23rd, 2012
4:11 pm
In other words, Bruno, you choose option 3.
Jay
April 23rd, 2012
4:12 pm
Your statement that “morality should be viewed in absolute terms, with some relativity built in” is self-negating.
Absolute is absolute, or it isn’t absolute.
getalife
April 23rd, 2012
4:14 pm
“Revise the Dream act ” is willard’s pandering position on immigration.
Bruno
April 23rd, 2012
4:16 pm
You’ve won the debate simply in how you define the terms. It’s like saying “all criminals are conservatives,” which of course would mean that only conservatives are criminal.
Hmmm–Kind of like your unsubstantiated claims that “most racists” are conservative??
The short rebuttal to the claim about the left elevating leaders to godlike status, while the right does not, would consist of two words: Ronald Reagan.
I never said that the Right doesn’t have its Deities either. In the case of Reagan, however, I don’t think the deification process began before he even took office. Are you still defending the Nobel Peace Prize awarded to Obama based on one month’s worth of accomplishments??
Whatever
April 23rd, 2012
4:18 pm
Jay,
If it is relative for each of us individually then there is no morality. The Norway shooter is correct when he says he was right in killing all those people if, as you say, “we are each correct for ourself.”
I can’t really believe you believe that.
TaxPayer
April 23rd, 2012
4:19 pm
So, Taxpayer admits to not paying taxes, Ironic…
Not quite, USMC. If you were to read more carefully, I extended a thank you to Republicans and Bush for giving a married couple, for example, the capability to “earn” over $85,000 in investment income without paying any fed or payroll taxes. As it turns out, Bush and the Republicans failed to give me my pension income free of fed taxes although I do not have any payroll taxes on that. Also, our small business gets stuck with both fed and payroll taxes. It’s just our investment income that gets the special Republican/Bush treatment. So if you Republicans do get a majority, I look forward to my pension ultimately becoming tax free as well as our small business income. I mean what good would a Republican majority be if it could not or would not deliver on that promise of tax cut after tax cut…
They BOTH suck
April 23rd, 2012
4:19 pm
meant to say “open minds”
Apologize……….. must have been a Freudian slip
Bruno
April 23rd, 2012
4:20 pm
Your statement that “morality should be viewed in absolute terms, with some relativity built in” is self-negating.
Absolute is absolute, or it isn’t absolute.
I know that it’s a little hard to follow, but an embrace of complete Absolute Morality doesn’t work, as witnessed by all of the ridiculous Zero Tolerance policies enforced in our schools. There has to be at least a little wiggle room built in to account for common sense and rare exceptions. At the same time, Moral Relativism is an absolute disaster, since it leaves standards of conduct completely up to the individual. From polls I’ve seen, our youth have drifted far, far into the Moral Relativism abyss, in which even murder isn’t being condemned.
They BOTH suck
April 23rd, 2012
4:20 pm
“I don’t think the deification process began before he even took office.”
Is that supposed to be some sort of qualification thatsome how justifies what you did come back and say took place on the right as well as the left.?
getalife
April 23rd, 2012
4:21 pm
Prostitutegate grows to 24.
Jay
April 23rd, 2012
4:21 pm
“Are you still defending the Nobel Peace Prize awarded to Obama based on one month’s worth of accomplishments??”
Bruno, I never defended it in the first place. As I wrote at the time:
“… it is still ridiculously premature, and I expect Obama knows that better than anyone. It’s like putting a rookie pitcher in the Hall of Fame after two great months in the bigs.
Considering the circumstances in which he took office, I wouldn’t quibble with much that Obama has done. But the only actual accomplishment of his first nine months — besides not being George Bush — was his success in pulling the global economy back from what appeared to be possible catastrophe. That was hardly his work alone; in fact, despite some early flailing, President Bush deserves a chunk of that credit as well, as do other world and economic leaders…”
Paul
April 23rd, 2012
4:22 pm
TaxPayer
Wow… you’re gonna be the Ultimate Job Creator! I mean, isn’t that what all you small business types do with those Republican tax cuts? Hire lots more people? Or give it all to the workers?
Those Republicans sure know how to balance a budget and get the economy moving, don’t they?
BTW, when are those 2002 tax cuts gonna get more people hired?
Jay
April 23rd, 2012
4:24 pm
In other words, Bruno, you’re comfortable with YOUR moral relativism, but not theirs.
USMC
April 23rd, 2012
4:25 pm
“Prostitutegate grows to 24.”–getalife
Let’s see, we have:
1) Fast N Furious
2) GSA Gate
3) Prostitution Gate
4) Obamacare gate ??
All under Obama’s watch… And that is just the FRAUD we are aware of.
saywhat?
April 23rd, 2012
4:26 pm
The headline is too generous to Goldberg. Is there anything he HASN”T gotten wrong?
Jay
April 23rd, 2012
4:26 pm
No, I don’t believe that, Whatever. I believe the core of morality is the Golden Rule: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”
All else is commentary.
However, I don’t believe that we need a God to impose the Golden Rule on us. It is simple decency and common sense that produces a much better world for all of us.
Bruno
April 23rd, 2012
4:31 pm
Observation of an occurrence and tally of said occurences. Instead he resorts to his usual ploy of accusation of the baseless and unfounded and unwarranted variety. Good show, Bruno.
For starters, D-Wad, you have bragged about your income many, many times on this blog, your 4:19 being only the latest example. Your pronouncements about Science always come from on high, to which there can never be any discussion or disagreement. In case you have forgotten, you bragged to me about having multiple degrees from GT, yet you were unable to answer basic questions from Physics such as the Pauli Exclusion Principle.
Bottom line, TP, is that you don’t understand that conversation is meant to be a two-way street. Maybe you never developed any people skills along the way, but being an arrogant jerk doesn’t win any friends or influence any people.
USMC
April 23rd, 2012
4:32 pm
The Obama administration is now pivoting to jobs, jobs, jobs!
Starting with shovel ready Jobs
TaxPayer
April 23rd, 2012
4:32 pm
Wow… you’re gonna be the Ultimate Job Creator! I mean, isn’t that what all you small business types do with those Republican tax cuts? Hire lots more people? Or give it all to the workers?
Well that’s how those tax cuts are being sold. And we are trying to give all the extra income from the small business to the workers, my wife and I. The extra income from investments just gets rolled back into more investments so we can have more. It’s the Republican way and if it ultimately turns out that we cannot beat them then we’ll join them at their own game and let the minions paying payroll taxes and such support us all. It’s called living the American Dream, I think. Or something like that.
Paul
April 23rd, 2012
4:32 pm
“I don’t believe that we need a God to impose the Golden Rule on us. It is simple decency and common sense that produces a much better world for all of us.”
Which is why Republicans hate government regulations, for they know, left to themselves Americans, from individuals clearing trash from their lots to corporations making a buck, will all gravitate towards using the Golden Rule as a firm guide in all that they do -
Paul
April 23rd, 2012
4:35 pm
TaxPayer
The Minions of America thank you, knowing their support of you is worth it.
And you never once used the work ‘betters.”
TaxPayer
April 23rd, 2012
4:37 pm
D-Wad
That’s the extent of your “data”, eh, Bruno. I think your posts to me say it all much better than I ever could.
Bruno
April 23rd, 2012
4:38 pm
Considering the circumstances in which he took office, I wouldn’t quibble with much that Obama has done. But the only actual accomplishment of his first nine months — besides not being George Bush — was his success in pulling the global economy back from what appeared to be possible catastrophe.
If my memory serves me correctly, Jay, the application for being considered for the Nobel Prize came many, many months earlier, like in Feb or March after Obama was elected. Now I’m sure he’ll claim that he was nominated without his knowledge or permission, but that’s a little hard to believe.
It was because he was our first black president, which represented a coming of age for this country and a validation of what we tell ourselves this country is about.
For those of us who don’t consider the color of one’s skin to be an “accomplishment”, I didn’t see it as any big deal at all, other than for shutting up some of the Lib Racists in this country who still hold condescending, paternalistic views of Blacks based on some perceived inferiority.
Whatever
April 23rd, 2012
4:38 pm
Jay,
You are proving my point. You think you are right, the Norway shooter thinks he is right. Who is right and by whose authority are they right?
Who has the right to tell me the “Golden Rule” is right?
Jay
April 23rd, 2012
4:41 pm
The society in which we live sets those rules, Whatever. That has been the case from the earliest days of human existence, when we abided by the rules of the clan or tribe.
TaxPayer
April 23rd, 2012
4:42 pm
Which is why Republicans hate government regulations, for they know, left to themselves Americans, from individuals clearing trash from their lots to corporations making a buck, will all gravitate towards using the Golden Rule as a firm guide in all that they do -
Were you able to keep a straight face while tying that? Inquiring minds, doncha know.
Paul
April 23rd, 2012
4:42 pm
Whatever
“Who has the right to tell me the “Golden Rule” is right?”
Obviously not the Norway shooter, after he killed your wife and kids -
TaxPayer
April 23rd, 2012
4:42 pm
Oops. That’s typing. Not tying. Purely non-freudian slip.
pogo
April 23rd, 2012
4:43 pm
“Liberal Fascism” simply points out the similarities that you liberals have as pertaining to Stalins and Hitlers methods and in some very important ways their ideology. Afterall, you were enamoured with both Stalin and Hitler at one time. It was only when it became apparent that genocide was happening under they tyranny that you washed you hands of them. Probably because murders of millions of Jews, Poles and Soviets was just bad for the progressive cause. Goldberg is not weak on his facts as Granny Lizard said here today. His book just makes liberals very, very uncomfortable because it makes them look at their history.
Paul
April 23rd, 2012
4:43 pm
TaxPayer
I’m rarely able to keep a straight face on this blog -
They BOTH suck
April 23rd, 2012
4:45 pm
“For those of us who don’t consider the color of one’s skin to be an “accomplishment”, I didn’t see it as any big deal at all, other than for shutting up some of the Lib Racists in this country who still hold condescending, paternalistic views of Blacks based on some perceived inferiority.”
Would it just be “libs”? ………. many on the right made a huge deal out of several of Bush’s cabinet appointments and in many cases they were not just trumpeting their education, skill sets and past work history
I’m not saying those he appointed were not qualified by any means, but there was much brouhaha about who they were…….
Come one Bruno…………
It isn’t just a “lib” thing……… unless you want it to be in your own mind
Bruno
April 23rd, 2012
4:46 pm
In other words, Bruno, you’re comfortable with YOUR moral relativism, but not theirs.
Not sure how you came up with that, Jay, but that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that morality has to begin with Absolute statements, such as “killing is wrong” or “torture is wrong”. Within those Absolutes, however, there has to be some room for “sentencing guidelines”, otherwise you end up with a greater injustice. Stealing a loaf of bread is “wrong”, but it doesn’t deserve having your hand cut off in response as they still do in the Middle East.
On the other hand, simply saying that we all have to develop our “own” code of ethics is a one-way trip to the Dumpster. Is that what you’re arguing for??
No, I don’t believe that, Whatever. I believe the core of morality is the Golden Rule: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”
No problem with that statement, Jay. If you have followed any of my discussions about Godel’s Incompleteness Theorem, that is his message too. Since no system of “rules” can ever be Complete or even Consistent, then we ultimately have to appeal to the “Spirit of the Law” in rendering justice.