What Chris Hitchens and Jonah Goldberg both got wrong
Christopher Hitchens
In his atheistic diatribe “God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything,” the late Christopher Hitchens revisited the various evils and excesses committed in the name of religion over the centuries. And they are many.
Yet what about the brutal excesses of secular, atheistic regimes, such as Stalin’s USSR, Hitler’s Third Reich, Mao’s China and Pol Pot’s Khmer Rouge? Doesn’t their existence challenge the claim that it is somehow religion that is at fault, rather than something still deeper in the human psyche?
In response, Hitchens offered what I consider to be an intellectually lazy answer, an answer designed to try to win a debate rather than get at the truth:
The regimes of Stalin, Mao, Hitler and Pol Pot were also religious in nature, Hitchens argued, because they substituted the worship of an individual or ideology for the worship of a god. Therefore, all evil that those regimes did must be totted up on religion’s side of the ledger, leaving the secular world unstained.
With that contention — voila! — Hitchen’s problem was solved, or so he claimed.
In a 2007 tour to promote “God Is Not Great”, Hitchens traveled the country debating religious experts about its theme. Here in Atlanta, he crossed rhetorical swords with Tim Jackson, a professor of Christian ethics at Emory’s Candler School of Theology. And Jackson, to his credit, refused to condone Hitchen’s cheap debating tactic:
Timothy Jackson
“If we can embrace such doublespeak that North Korea is a religious institution, a religious regime, and understand Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot as fundamentally religious, then religion has become an ugly meaningless term,” Jackson pointed out.
“We’re all sinful and we can all contribute to horrific injustice, whether we’re believers or not,” the professor reminded the crowd. “….the worm at the heart of human nature is deeper than that.”
(An audio of the Hitchens/Jackson debate is available here.).
In that regard at least, Hitchens shared a lot with his one-time neighbor in New York, conservative writer Jonah Goldberg. In his 2008 book “Liberal Fascism,” Goldberg echoed Hitchens by alleging that all totalitarianism, including fascism, is by nature liberal in its origins.
Clearly, communist regimes in the USSR and China were brutal and tyrannical. But what of, say, Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, which are historically treated as examples of right-wing dictatorships? Do they not demonstrate that totalitarianism is a temptation to which both the right and left might succumb?
To Goldberg, the answer is no. He argues that Nazi Germany was actually a left-wing manifestation that drew its poison from the wells of liberalism and socialism. In fact, in his view of the world the phrase “right-wing dictatorship” is an impossible contradiction and a null set. Conservatives by definition could never be tempted to seek absolute power; thus, those who seek absolute power could never be conservative.
In a new posting at National Review, where he works as a columnist, Goldberg claims to have found further evidence of his thesis in a two-part series on Nazi Germany that was originally published in 1932 in The Atlantic and has now been republished on the Internet.
(The articles by Nicolas Fairweather are astonishing in their own right, demonstrating just how predictable the coming nightmare really was. Everything — the attempted genocide of the Jews, the invasion first of France and then of the Soviet Union — was all well-known and understood by those who cared to do so long before Hitler even gained power.)
Jonah Goldberg
However, when you read the articles cited, you realize once again how thin and downright silly Goldberg’s argument really is. For example, the 1932 Atlantic article lists “the principal articles of Hitler’s political faith,” which included:
“(Hitler’s) violent animosity to Marxian Socialism as in essence opposed to his ideal of a nationally minded people and a racial state. He condemns the Socialism of Marx as a poisonous teaching which by its humanitarianism, its internationalism, and its pacifism — all legacies of the unnatural and unwholesome democracy of the French Revolution — operates to undermine the clean ideal of Aryan (that is, German) overlordship.”
Hitler saw “Marxian Socialism” as a Jewish invention, “the principal tool by which they insinuate themselves into healthy, pure blooded, racial states.” He despised labor unions and expressed contempt for the common man. As the Atlantic piece reported:
“Class warfare, it appeared (to Hitler), was necessarily a destroyer of nationalism. In reacting against the internationalism and class-consciousness of the orthodox Socialists (’Marxists’ is the term Hitler always uses), he has made himself the outstanding opponent of all Communistic tendencies.”
Remember, this is all in an article cited as evidence in favor of Goldberg’s thesis.
In one sense, I am admittedly rehashing old ground — both the Goldberg book and the Hitchens book were published years ago. However, as the 1932 Atlantic pieces demonstrate, bad ideas and bad history can have profound consequences if left unchallenged.
It is dangerous for any group of people to wrap themselves in a belief that they are immune to the temptations of power, because once you make that mistake, those temptations become all the harder to resist. As George Orwell documented so well, for example, a similar arrogance on the left during the ’20s, ’30s and ’40s led many liberals to dismiss evidence of just how brutal the Soviet Union had become.
There will always be those who are eager to take as much power as possible; likewise, there will always be those who are willing to surrender that power to others. Political philosophy and religious faith make no one exempt to either temptation.
Because, as the good professor noted:
“The worm at the heart of human nature is deeper than that.”
– Jay Bookman
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903 comments Add your comment
In other news
April 23rd, 2012
2:06 pm
“n response, Hitchens offered what I consider to be an intellectually lazy answer”
Too bad Hitchens isn’t here to mock you, Jay. Then again, Hitchens, nor anyone else outside of the AJC blogs has ever heard of you.
Jm
April 23rd, 2012
2:07 pm
Scotch v Gin
M
April 23rd, 2012
2:07 pm
Personally, I just take the Occam’s Razor approach.
“There is no god, and human beings can really be jerks.”
is infinitely more likely than
“Well, there is a god, and he’s omnipotent (probably)…and sometimes he acts this way, and sometimes completely different. He loves us, but he’ll punish us eternally for violating an arbitrary list of rules. He’s also never around, but trust us, he’s there. He could intervene in human affairs and stop needless violence and suffering, but he doesn’t. I mean, where would the fun be if we didn’t have free will? Except I just remembered that sometimes he did intervene. And we pray to him and ask him for things, even though he supposedly has this perfect plan and why would he change that just for us? But we’re gonna pray anyway. Also he killed his son, but he totally had a good reason.”
USMC
April 23rd, 2012
2:09 pm
Ahhhh, yes… speaking of Dictators… Obama side steps Congress… Nice
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47138446/ns/politics-the_new_york_times/#.T5Wag9WNlrl
(ir)Rational
April 23rd, 2012
2:09 pm
Bruno – Hate to disagree, but if you can’t keep dressing from drying out, you ain’t doing it right. I’ve never had stuffing, and I’ve never been subjected to dry dressing. Then again, I know plenty of people who serve dry chunks of crumbly stuff they call “cornbread” that isn’t deserving of the name, so maybe that’s where the problem lies.
UNCLE SAMANTHA
April 23rd, 2012
2:10 pm
usmc
isn’t $5 trillion a small price to pay to be rescued from the jaws of the great depression 2?
and a small price to pay for our great recovery?
M
April 23rd, 2012
2:10 pm
OK, RB, I’ll discuss car accidents. Why does an all-loving all-good God allow good people to be killed in unspeakable pain in car accidents, leaving loved ones behind to grieve?
It’s not arrogant to question a deity when a deity’s practices are not worthy of respect, much less worship. If he wants to smite me with a lightning bolt, it is his prerogative. I’ll wait.
Jefferson
April 23rd, 2012
2:13 pm
Gomer, he is still the best choice and you sound like a sour puss, with all your squalling.
(ir)Rational
April 23rd, 2012
2:13 pm
M – I’ve always wondered why an all knowing and all loving and all good deity would punish those simply because they were never introduced to his (preferred?) religion? Also, why would a deity who knows everything and is all powerful need people to worship him. Does he have such a small and fragile ego that he can’t exist simply knowing what others think/feel?
Lucifer
April 23rd, 2012
2:14 pm
Lenin was highly suspicious of Stalin because of his propensity of making himself “godlike” through a cult of personality with the people. Look what is going on in North Korea. The leadership has their people so thoroughly brainwashed that they hold their leader in esteem regardless if he fails to provide the masses with enough food for survival. Now, I disagree with Hitchins that this cult of personality is a “religion” in and of itself, but Hitchins was an intellectual giant and one hellava writer. In his book “god is not great” he quotes several passages from Thomas Paine’s book “The Age of Reason.” So, I took the time to read Paine’s book, and indeed I arrived at these conclusions: The Holy Bible does not contain the “word of God” and quotes attributed to Jesus weren’t written until hundreds of years after Jesus died and are suspect; the Gospels contain so many inconsistencies from Matthew, Mark, Luke and John that any intelligent and logical researcher would admit such; the Bible is a violent and obscene rendering of mankind that it should be labled “PORN” and children should not be allowed to read it. And, Paine rightly points out, religion is a manmade invention created to rule over and manipulate the masses, give clergy power, and obtain money from all the “terrible” sinners who should spend their days professing their sins and bowing at the altar of God Almighty. Hitchens was on the right track and Paine leveled both the Old and New Testiments by going through the forest (his words) and with the strokes of a powerful lumberjack felling the trees .. i.e., each chapter of the scriptures he takes apart and lays them bare — revealing them for the illogical frauds that they are. Remember, a collective of Church clergy “voted” on which chapters got into the Holy Bible and which would be left out. In other words, which language would best serve their purposes and give them power and profit — hardly a “divine” way to conduct business.
Paul
April 23rd, 2012
2:14 pm
M
“is infinitely more likely than ”
You might find it worthwhile to spend some time with a Buddhist, Christian Scientist, Religious Science, or something that doesn’t lend itself to so many caricatures.
————————————
I’l second (ir)Rational. Dressing. Not cornbread. LOTS of melted butter. Never dries out.
M
April 23rd, 2012
2:15 pm
You’d think he’d just snap his fingers and give him an ego that could handle it.
Paul
April 23rd, 2012
2:16 pm
M
“Why does an all-loving all-good God allow good people to be killed in unspeakable pain in car accidents, leaving loved ones behind to grieve? ”
Read the book of Job.
Then read “When Bad Things Happen to Good People” by Kushner.
Then ask josef.
M
April 23rd, 2012
2:16 pm
Paul,
Christian Scientists lost me at “disease is caused by fear, sin, and ignorance.”
M
April 23rd, 2012
2:17 pm
The book of Job is one of the most appalling books in the Bible, and that’s saying a lot.
philosopher
April 23rd, 2012
2:18 pm
Paul, “To that I will add, it’s dangerous for any political group to think their opponents are evil, do not have any knowledge, redeeming characteristics or any worthwhile solutions, and reject any and all attempts to seek common ground through compromise. Arrogance, the desire for power and self delusion make for a dangerous combination.”
I absolutely agree. The root of all evil: power, arrogance and self-delusion…those things upon which “religions” are based.
Faith in God (or a lack of it) is a deeply personal experience, not a tool or weapon or a gauge to measure another.
Bruno
April 23rd, 2012
2:18 pm
The notion that a deity created this universe and either walked away or just let it run itself for kicks, while still highly unlikely, is MUCH more likely than the ideas of most Christians/Muslims/Jews.
M–As far as we know, the Universe that we can observe is all we have. We can hypothesize about Supernatural Beings who can defy the known Laws of Physics at whim, but without any evidence to support it, we might as well believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
The building block of our current Universe is the atom. As such, we ultimately have to explain all of the observable phenomena in terms of atomic properties, which is the whole point of Quantum Mechanics. Unfortunately, there remains a deep disconnect between known atomic properties and the amazingly complex macro-world that we inhabit. In particular, life is unexplainable in terms of atomic properties. The seeming ability for atoms to “self-organize” into larger, purposeful entities cannot be explained at our current level of knowledge.
USMC
April 23rd, 2012
2:18 pm
“isn’t $5 trillion a small price to pay to be rescued from the jaws of the great depression 2?
and a small price to pay for our great recovery?”
…small price??? …great recovery???
Whatever you say Uncle Samantha… “Pass the Dutchie from the Lefthand side…”
Normal Free, Plain and Simple
April 23rd, 2012
2:19 pm
USMC
April 23rd, 2012
2:09 pm
I knew one of you would bring this up when I heard of it. Quite a selective memory you have. President Bush made that move is signature act. And…if Congress had been more into working for America, President Obama would not have to resort to the same tactics.
Thulsa Doom
April 23rd, 2012
2:19 pm
Sooooo. the NAZI “national socialism” party is conservative and right wing? Really Jay? As was the predecessor to the nazi party from which it sprang- the “German workers party”? Yep. Those sound like real conservative political parties to me. I can’t make it any simpler for the libs.
(ir)Rational
April 23rd, 2012
2:20 pm
M – You would think, but I can see how churches are satisfied with the current set-up. They get loads of money for telling people how horrible they are. Quite the nice set-up.
M
April 23rd, 2012
2:20 pm
Bruno, I think I agree with you, if I read your post correctly. As long as you’re not saying “we can’t explain it” is equivalent to “God probably did it.”
Thulsa Doom
April 23rd, 2012
2:21 pm
“isn’t $5 trillion a small price to pay to be rescued from the jaws of the great depression 2?
and a small price to pay for our great recovery?”
I would like some of whatever Uncle Samantha is drinking. Or smoking.
Bruno
April 23rd, 2012
2:22 pm
Read the book of Job.
Then read “When Bad Things Happen to Good People” by Kushner.
Then ask josef.
You might also consider some of the books of renowned religious scholar Bart D. Ehrman:
http://www.bartdehrman.com/books.htm
He directly investigates the Biblical explanation of Evil in his book “God’s Problem”.
Normal Free, Plain and Simple
April 23rd, 2012
2:22 pm
M
April 23rd, 2012
2:17 pm
I always thought that if you read “The Book of JOB” as a play, it makes more sense. I believe that that is what it was meant to be… A moral play.
Penny Pincher
April 23rd, 2012
2:22 pm
godless heathen©
April 23rd, 2012
1:28 pm
That was funny, mad my day, thank you.
USMC
April 23rd, 2012
2:23 pm
“I would like some of whatever Uncle Samantha is drinking. Or smoking.”–Thulsa Doom
Wait your turn Doomy! It’s coming from the Lefthand side… and I’m next!
M
April 23rd, 2012
2:23 pm
Ehrman’s book “Misquoting Jesus” is one of my favorites.
Matti
April 23rd, 2012
2:24 pm
IMO: Bad things happen to good people because that’s the way the universe IS — no matter how or why we were brought into existence. It just IS. Any attempt to explain it is just our need to make sense of something that makes no sense.
Why do good, strong people get cancer and suffer and die horrible deaths, or have heart attacks or tragic accidents and die w/o saying goodbye, leaving us to grieve…. while nasty, surly, selfish jerks who lash out at others, or drain the life from us, just to make everyone as miserable as they are, go on and on, year after year, like freaking energizer bunnies, while we bury the precious among us and yearn for days that will never return?
There is no answer. We just wish there were.
M
April 23rd, 2012
2:25 pm
Even as a moral play, I’d find the book of Job to be appalling. A capricious and callous God wins a bet with the Devil (who he ostensibly created in the first place) by destroying the entire life of a man who has done nothing but love and serve him? Egad.
(ir)Rational
April 23rd, 2012
2:25 pm
So, Penny Pincher, just out of curiosity, are you pinching pennies, or do you know a cute girl named Penny that you would like to pinch?
My Party has ALL the answers. Your party is full of poopyheads! (formerly That Black Guy)
April 23rd, 2012
2:26 pm
“It is dangerous for any group of people to wrap themselves in a belief that they are immune to the temptations of power, because once you make that mistake, those temptations become all the harder to resist. ”
Jay, that can’t be true. According to some here, it’s the “other” side of the aisle that is responsible for the evils in the world/country.
BTW, REALLY good piece.
Bruno
April 23rd, 2012
2:28 pm
You’re not as nice as you pretend to be.
Matti–As far as I know, I’ve never pretended to be “nice”, certainly not any “nicer” than anyone else in this world. If I have, it most likely was a case of seeing a toothpick in someone else’s eye and failing to see the telephone pole in my own.
We all have our demons, and I’m often not proud of how my own manifest themselves. Fair enough?? And just so you know, it doesn’t matter how you feel toward me or whether you choose to address me again on the blog or not, I’m still going to care about you.
Mick
April 23rd, 2012
2:29 pm
usmc
For a jarhead, you really are quite a girlie man…oooo obama cost us 5 trillion…ooooo obama is a dictator…ooooo..what wimpus!!
Thulsa Doom
April 23rd, 2012
2:29 pm
USMC,
You have to admit. Uncle Samantha’s comment was one of the funniest things I’ve ever read on here. The funniest part is that he wasn’t intending to be funny. He must be drinking some other special spiked Kool-Aid.
Paul
April 23rd, 2012
2:34 pm
M
That was my initial reaction, too, then I looked at it from the standpoint of dwelling on negativity and found some principles worth pursuing.
Book of Job – like I said, read Kushner. Good discussion of symbolism and principles. (For example, he likens the beginning of Satan going to God and saying “wanna make a bet?” as the Hebrew writing equivalent of “Once upon a time…” People who take everything literally are at a severe disadvantage in understanding.
Bruno 2:18
Thoughtful third paragraph. I hope carlosgvv sees it.
M
Misquoting Jesus is a good read. I think if a person came to the Bible never having read it, having no preconceptions, just after reading Misquoting Jesus, he’d have a much different view than many as to what the New Testament’s all about -
UNCLE SAMANTHA
April 23rd, 2012
2:34 pm
$5 trillion is nothing compared to having to eat dog food to survive and sleeping in tents waiting for jobs to pop up digging ditches …………. i for one am grateful that he wasted all of our money so that we didnt have to experience such things
getalife
April 23rd, 2012
2:35 pm
Get your religion out of my politics cons.
Thanks.
Bruno
April 23rd, 2012
2:35 pm
Bruno, I think I agree with you, if I read your post correctly. As long as you’re not saying “we can’t explain it” is equivalent to “God probably did it.”
M–I haven’t seen you here much before unless you recently changed your blog handle, but I am an epistemological nihilist. What we ultimately “know” relates directly back to the way that our brains work and how we perceive the world through our limited methods of understanding. If it helps, my Physics hero is Richard Feynman, and this is my favorite quote attributed to him:
“I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong. If we will only allow that, as we progress, we remain unsure, we will leave opportunities for alternatives. We will not become enthusiastic for the fact, the knowledge, the absolute truth of the day, but remain always uncertain … In order to make progress, one must leave the door to the unknown ajar.”
Jm
April 23rd, 2012
2:36 pm
“The leadership has their people so thoroughly brainwashed that they hold their leader in esteem regardless if he fails to provide the masses with enough food for survival. ”
I had no idea lucifer was anti Obama. Welcome to the party.
Doggone/GA
April 23rd, 2012
2:36 pm
“Why does an all-loving all-good God allow good people to be killed in unspeakable pain in car accidents, leaving loved ones behind to grieve? ”
Mark Twain, in “Letters from Earth” (I think that’s right) – tells the story of an Angel that comes to earth and meets with some boys. As they are walking and talking they spot someone drowning in the river, and the Angel does nothing to stop it happening. And the boys berate the Angel, who tells them he looked down the timeline of that person’s future and every timeline but one ended in him living the rest of his life completely paralyzed and dependent on others for all his care and feeding.
Penny Pincher
April 23rd, 2012
2:37 pm
(ir)Rational
April 23rd, 2012
2:25 pm
yes
USMC
April 23rd, 2012
2:38 pm
“For a jarhead, you really are quite a girlie man…oooo obama cost us 5 trillion…ooooo obama is a dictator…ooooo..what wimpus!!”–Mick
Mick, aren’t you the one that served in the “Jewish Navy”… I mean the Coast Guard???
Are you are actually laughing off $5 TRILLION debt, Mick??? Unbelievable!
Mick, I know you are more responsible than that. What is your personal Debt?
getalife
April 23rd, 2012
2:39 pm
Looks like Uncle Samantha is crushing some cons.
Welcome to the blog.
(ir)Rational
April 23rd, 2012
2:40 pm
Penny Pincher – I see.
My Party has ALL the answers. Your party is full of poopyheads! (formerly That Black Guy)
April 23rd, 2012
2:40 pm
Jm
April 23rd, 2012
12:55 pm
Meanwhile the NY Times has a piece abouthow Obama is making unprecedented grabs for executive power…
________________________________________________________________________________
F
O
C
U
S
!
This has nothing to do with Obama.
Or Bush for that matter (although they BOTH will be tossed out there in a reply to Jay’s party neurtral piece)
USMC
April 23rd, 2012
2:42 pm
“$5 trillion is nothing compared to having to eat dog food to survive and sleeping in tents waiting for jobs to pop up digging ditches …………. i for one am grateful that he wasted all of our money so that we didnt have to experience such things”
And this is the typical lack of Intelligence displayed from DemocRats… Predictable.
Your statement is utterly ridiculous, but I respect your right to say it.
UNCLE SAMANTHA
April 23rd, 2012
2:43 pm
$5 TRILLION is only about $17,000 per each citizen of the United States……….. that is a small price to pay to not have to eat dog food
willie lynch
April 23rd, 2012
2:44 pm
Thulsa Doom
April 23rd, 2012
2:19 pm
What did the Nazi party do that would be considered socialist? The idea that they would be considered socialist in anything but name indicates either stupidity or plain deceitfulness in the believer or one who espouses such views.
Bruno
April 23rd, 2012
2:45 pm
People who take everything literally are at a severe disadvantage in understanding.
Paul–Here is my post to Common Sense a few years ago when he brought up the topic of a literal Bible:
Bruno
November 18th, 2009
2:35 pm
It would take much too long to explain here so in your case just stick with the four Gospels (no argument on that) and you can find the TRUTH you need for eternal life.
“Common Sense–I respect your sincerity on this topic and hope that you can appreciate mine in return. Let me explain my perspective on Christianity:
Back in 1897, a young lady named Virginia wrote a letter to the New York Sun questioning whether Santa Claus really existed. The famous reply, of course, is “Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy.”
So, to you, I say, “Yes, Common Sense, there is a Christ. He exists certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist….”
Many people, like yourself, insist upon a literal interpretation of the Bible just as small children believe in a literal Santa Claus. However, at some point in life, we realize that literal explanations of supernatural phenomena can’t stand rigorous scrutiny. At that point, we can simply reject such explanations out-of-hand, or, like the editor of the newspaper, we can search for a greater meaning.
In the end, IMO, a non-literal interpretation of the Bible does not diminish the message in any way, but in fact enhances it. Just my opinion, of course.”
http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2009/11/18/fathers-and-sons-and-war-another-chapter-in-an-age-old-story/?cp=5#comment-167752
(ir)Rational
April 23rd, 2012
2:45 pm
So, assuming this $5 trillion wasn’t spent, your assertion is that we would all be eating dog food now? To borrow from the great philosopher (Dr.) Bugs Bunny, “what a maroon!”
M
April 23rd, 2012
2:46 pm
Bruno…I lurk a lot, and comment only occasionally.
UNCLE SAMANTHA
April 23rd, 2012
2:48 pm
prove to me we wouldn’t have been eating dog food if obama hadn’t have saved us…………
then prove to me god exists
carlosgvv
April 23rd, 2012
2:48 pm
The key to all of this is blind faith in those who have the power. Whether it is religious leaders or tyrants, those who keep them in power because of blind faith must bear some of the responsibility of the evils done by these tyrants. Hitler was elected, Popes are venerated and evils are done in the name of some ism, whether religious or secular. There will always be those who have such a lust for power that they will use either politics or religion to fool the masses into blindly following them. To these tyrants, religion or politics are just tools to get and keep power. Fooling the people into thinking their leaders actually believe what they preach is as old as civilization.
USMC
April 23rd, 2012
2:48 pm
“$5 TRILLION is only about $17,000 per each citizen of the United States……….. that is a small price to pay to not have to eat dog food”–Uncle Samantha
Have you paid YOUR $17,000 yet???
Or when do YOU plan to pay YOUR $17,000 share of the $5 TRILLION Debt OBAMA has charged up?
Thulsa Doom
April 23rd, 2012
2:49 pm
UNCLE SAMANTHA
April 23rd, 2012
2:43 pm
“$5 TRILLION is only about $17,000 per each citizen of the United States……….. that is a small price to pay to not have to eat dog food”.
Holy cow. It just gets funnier and funnier. Confucious say “When in a hole quite digging deeper”.
(ir)Rational
April 23rd, 2012
2:50 pm
So I have to prove your assertion to be untrue? I don’t think that is how it works here. But hey, you do what you want, and the rest of us can laugh at you. As for your other order, I’ve never made that claim, at least not here, and I can assure you that I never will.
Paul
April 23rd, 2012
2:50 pm
Bruno 2:45
I pretty much concur with that.
Altho sometimes I can’t resist acting out, for the benefit of a literalist, when Saul witnessed Stephen’s stoning and it said the heavens opened and Stephen saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God -
at which point I step on my right hand and smile –
They usually don’t see the humor.
Finn McCool (Class Warfare === Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)
April 23rd, 2012
2:51 pm
Both gents are/were a bit Nutters. But for a leaned guy to even suggest that fascism is a liberal concept is a huge stretch.
Normal Free, Plain and Simple
April 23rd, 2012
2:51 pm
USMC
April 23rd, 2012
2:48 pm
Del,
I would gladly pay it if everyone else would. I love this country. I have served it, fought for it, and bled for it. If serving my country means paying more taxes, I am all for it. I call it duty.
Thulsa Doom
April 23rd, 2012
2:52 pm
willie stench,
I see you mentioned stupidity. What better person to speak of it so well since you abound in it in terms of sheer quantity.
USMC
April 23rd, 2012
2:52 pm
“$5 TRILLION is only about $17,000 per each citizen of the United States……….. that is a small price to pay to not have to eat dog food”–Uncle Samantha
Whats wrong with Dog Food???
Uncle Samantha must be one of those (1%) One Per-centers who lives on caviar and Lobster…
Based on your comments, Uncle Samantha, you sound like you eat out at McDonald’s quite frequently…
getalife
April 23rd, 2012
2:52 pm
I think the Catholics need to shut up and get out of politics before they lose all their good people.
hitler welched on WWI reparations.
He was a con welcher.
UNCLE SAMANTHA
April 23rd, 2012
2:52 pm
proof
dogs eat meat
therefore meat is dog food
humans eat meat
therefore humans eat dog food
USMC
April 23rd, 2012
2:53 pm
“Holy cow. It just gets funnier and funnier. Confucious say “When in a hole quite digging deeper”.”
That doesn’t work in Quick-Sand Doomy!
(ir)Rational
April 23rd, 2012
2:55 pm
And there we have the reasoning behind why getalife was praising UNCLE SAMANTHA. Their arguments make just about as much sense. But to play along, dogs eat people food.
(ir)Rational
April 23rd, 2012
2:56 pm
Thulsa – Good advice, except when digging a foxhole. Then you can’t be too deep.
Bruno
April 23rd, 2012
2:56 pm
Thoughtful third paragraph. I hope carlosgvv sees it.
Paul–I’m guessing you saw my reply to carlos the other night when he tried to claim that theoretical Physics is a settled Science, that we know with great certainty how the Universe began and how it will end. Any cursory reading of the literature, of course, reveals that to be a fallacy.
I can’t pretend to know the mind of carlos, but my guess is that he’s stuck in an Existentialist funk. He likely saw how crazy religious “answers” can be, and ended up throwing the Baby out with the Bathwater. I did that for a short while myself, but have come to a different understanding by reading the Bible on my own, without preconceptions.
I think all of us here share some concern for carlos, since he appears to be chronically depressed. Been there and have done it myself, and it’s not a good space to be in.
Jay
April 23rd, 2012
2:57 pm
Samantha is punking y’all.
Mick
April 23rd, 2012
2:57 pm
usmc
First off this 5 trillion mythology is a fools errand….so if romney gets in and congress stays the same, will he be tagged with the next 5 trillion? No, you’ll still reach back and try to blame obama when the real culprit, as all truth seekers know, is the dastardly bush administration and the corrupt rubber stamp republican congress 2000-2007, they are responsible for the mess, obama has done his level best to try and clean up the mastadonian turd left in the driveway of all america…
(ir)Rational
April 23rd, 2012
2:58 pm
Jay – Are you saying Samantha is a parody poster? If so, I wish to offer a
USMC
April 23rd, 2012
2:58 pm
Poll: John Edwards 3% favorable rating
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0412/75458.html
What a Doosh! LOL!
How many Mindless Leftwing ideologues on this blog, including JAY, voted for this Doosh!?!
Jimmy62
April 23rd, 2012
3:00 pm
Funny thing about fascist states and socialist states. They both end up ruled by one person or a small group of people who tell everyone else what to do. Left or right doesn’t matter, it’s the totalitarian part of the formula that matters.
However, you can’t ignore the fact that Hitler came to power on the backs of labor unions, just like Lenin (and then Stalin) did. They both used left wing laborers who didn’t like their lot… They called them useful idiots, and would probably consider Jay another perfect tool to help them meet their goals.
UNCLE SAMANTHA
April 23rd, 2012
3:00 pm
the funny part is that the republican responses were so dumb they did not understand the sarcastic nature of my response ……. GREAT RECOVERY……. please………… USMC and his talk radio minions clearly didn’t understand…. its the same tactic that Rush uses and laughs when the medial picks up his sarcastic remarks and prints them thinking he meant them literally
dog food ………. come on
you give conservatives a bad name…….
even most of the dummy liberals knew not to respond because of the riduculousness of it all
Peadawg
April 23rd, 2012
3:01 pm
“so if romney gets in and congress stays the same, will he be tagged with the next 5 trillion? ”
Yup.
stands for decibels
April 23rd, 2012
3:01 pm
$5 TRILLION is only about $17,000 per each citizen of the United States…
shh. You’re not allowed to do simple division in here.
People get real upset, for some reason.
UNCLE SAMANTHA
April 23rd, 2012
3:01 pm
JAY
THANK YOU
Jay
April 23rd, 2012
3:01 pm
USMC, I saw you make a similar claim earlier. I was not an Edwards supporter.
willie lynch
April 23rd, 2012
3:02 pm
Thulsa Doom
April 23rd, 2012
2:52 pm
Great rebuttal. Very well thought out. Thanks for making my point.
Mick
April 23rd, 2012
3:02 pm
usmc
Never like edwards myself, thought he was ok for kerry in 04, I will admit that, but your party is the party that gave us sarah palin, how do you get away from that incompetence??
UNCLE SAMANTHA
April 23rd, 2012
3:03 pm
what is really sad is both parties are punking all of us
$15 trillion and they get over half of the population to think its the fault of one party and not the other
Jm
April 23rd, 2012
3:04 pm
Liberals prefer their heads in the sand
USMC
April 23rd, 2012
3:04 pm
“USMC, I saw you make a similar claim earlier. I was not an Edwards supporter.”
I am resting easier now, thanks Jay.
getalife
April 23rd, 2012
3:04 pm
“ridiculousness of it all”
Sums up the gop primary and our cons very well.
Well done.
Jimmy62
April 23rd, 2012
3:04 pm
BTW… I am NOT comparing Obama to Hitler, let me state that right off the bat. Hitler was an evil man, Obama is just incompetent and blinded by years of liberal ideals that never seem to work in real life.
However, the cult of personality that grew up around Obama in the last election would probably remind people who grew up in 1930’s Germany of the cult of personality surrounding Hitler. In both cases a lot of otherwise intelligent people were blinded into thinking one man had the magic answer to everyone’s problems. To say the messiah worship around Obama, and the left’s tendency to dehumanize anyone who disagrees with their groupthink doesn’t smack of fascism is just plain ignorant.
UNCLE SAMANTHA
April 23rd, 2012
3:05 pm
we owe $15 trillion in debt because both parties fight over who has the power
not over what the solution to problems are
UNCLE SAMANTHA
April 23rd, 2012
3:05 pm
we owe $15 trillion in debt because both parties fight over who has the power
not over what the solution to problems are
USMC
April 23rd, 2012
3:06 pm
“Never like edwards myself, thought he was ok for kerry in 04, I will admit that, but your party is the party that gave us sarah palin, how do you get away from that incompetence??”–Mick
Do I really need to pull out my Cynthia McKinney card to trump your Sarah Palin, Mick???
Paul
April 23rd, 2012
3:06 pm
Bruno
I did in fact see your response. And I agree with the ‘throw the baby out with the bathwater.” Seems a lot of people do that. But then some draw a fresh bath and it’s a new chapter -
Paul
April 23rd, 2012
3:07 pm
“Samantha is punking y’all.”
What was the first clue?
“Uncle” followed by “Samantha”?
USMC
April 23rd, 2012
3:07 pm
Cynthia McKinney back and running for her old congressional seat…
http://www.ajc.com/news/cynthia-mckinney-back-and-1423983.html
Gheesh!
Jm
April 23rd, 2012
3:07 pm
Edwards the dbag was still the Democrat’s VP nominee in 2004
He almost makes Palin look legit.
Bruno
April 23rd, 2012
3:08 pm
On topic, here is my other favorite Feynman quote:
“Looking back at the worst times, it always seems that they were times in which there were people who believed with absolute faith and absolute dogmatism in something. And they were so serious in this matter that they insisted that the rest of the world agree with them. And then they would do things that were directly inconsistent with their own beliefs in order to maintain that what they said was true.”
TaxPayer
April 23rd, 2012
3:10 pm
The statistics, some evangelicals say, can no longer be ignored.
Eighty percent of young evangelicals have engaged in premarital sex, according to a new video from the National Association of Evangelicals. and almost a third of evangelicals’ unplanned pregnancies end in abortion.
It’s time to speak honestly about sex because abstinence campaigns and anti-abortion crusades often aren’t resonating in their own pews, evangelical leaders say.
Shocking! The horror!
USMC’s having a slow news day so I thought I would give him something more interesting to talk about than Edwards.
USMC
April 23rd, 2012
3:10 pm
“Samantha is punking y’all.”–Jay
More GHETTO games, meanwhile Obama still has us in Debt to the tune of $5,000,000,000,000…
I guess the joke is on me!
getalife
April 23rd, 2012
3:10 pm
I enjoyed the episode of punked but I found punking the cons is easy to do because they believe what their party tells them to believe.
No questions asked.
RB from Gwinnett
April 23rd, 2012
3:10 pm
M, maybe the horrible can er death is to spare them from living next door to you???
What form of death do you think we’re all entitled to? And wouldn’t have family members grieving?
carlosgvv
April 23rd, 2012
3:10 pm
Bruno – 2:56
So, you think you know more than Nobel prize winning Ph.D mathematicians and physicists. And this is because, in your little mind, scripture tops science.
You are right about one thing. When I see how prevalant this sort of profound ignorance is, I do tend to get a little depressed.
Moderate Line
April 23rd, 2012
3:12 pm
Jay
April 23rd, 2012
1:17 pm
Bruno, I can see that point as well. However:
– In every other context Hitchens defines religion as a belief in the supernatural. I don’t think it’s “playing fair” to then suddenly redefine religion as faith in a person or a political or economic philosophy just because it suits your debating needs.
– It may be true to a degree that religious faith appeals to the same basic human desire as hero worship, etc. The problem then is with that basic human desire, which is the point I’m trying to make.
+++++
There are similarities between religions and idealogies. Both have the element of belief in things which are not self evident or provable. Almost everyone believes in something which can not be proven. Whenever I read something like this I reminded of Socrates who when informed he was the wisist man in Greece responded I am not wise because I know nothing but change his mind when he realized he was the only who realized he did not know anything.
Mick
April 23rd, 2012
3:13 pm
usmc
Sorry, you need another card…trying to put someone a heatbeat away from the president versus a lowly representive? C’mon man-up! Also, if you are going to insult the US coast guard at least show the proper respect by referring to us as shallow water sailors or puddle jumpers but never go where you went private pyle!!!