Trayvon Martin aside, ’stand your ground’ law is stupid
Let’s acknowledge from the beginning that there are no grounds to believe that Florida’s “stand your ground” law can be blamed for the events leading up to the tragic shooting of Trayvon Martin.
George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch fanatic who shot Martin, may have had no idea that Florida even had such a law. And even if he did know, that knowledge might not have changed his behavior in any way. The only thing we know for certain is that Sanford police cited the law in explaining why they lacked probable cause to arrest Zimmerman.
So setting aside the Martin tragedy, what possible purpose does a “stand your ground” law serve in the first place? What good can it possibly achieve, particularly when implemented outside the home?
Dealing with an intruder inside the home is quite a different matter. And every person of course has the right to defend themselves and others from bodily harm. That right existed before passage of “stand your ground” laws around the country; it exists today in states that did not pass “stand your ground” laws.
We’re dealing instead with something very different than mere self-defense. “Stand your ground” laws state that if an armed person faces a choice between safely withdrawing from a scene or standing his or her ground and killing someone, that person “has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force,” as Florida law puts it.
That’s what I don’t get. I understand that there are macho fools out there who believe that backing down from a fight is a worse outcome than shooting and killing another person. I just don’t see why in a civilized country the law should validate and even encourage that mentality.
– Jay Bookman
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905 comments Add your comment
William
March 27th, 2012
4:48 pm
“We’re dealing instead with something very different than mere self-defense. “Stand your ground” laws state that if an armed person faces a choice between safely withdrawing from a scene or standing his or her ground and killing someone, that person “has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force,” as Florida law puts it.”
I am unfamiliar with the backdrop to this law. I am sure it did not arise in a vacuum, however. Is it possible that prosecuters have striven to undermine self defense claims in court by arguing that if a person had the opportunity to flee, it really wasn’t self defense (just thinking out loud)? Of course, fleeing is not guarantee of avoiding harm as one can be shot in the back.
In any case, Jay, a much more palatable criticism of this law then your initial “guilty of…being black” column. It is much easier to consider what you are saying this way.
Fred ™
March 27th, 2012
4:48 pm
Thulsa Doom with his boot on liberal throats
March 27th, 2012
4:34 pm
“George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch fanatic who shot Martin”
Aaaaaah. So in Jay’s unbiased view the man is now a fanatic.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Sorry Doomy. In ANY unbiased view, the man is a fanatic. Look at his record. The police considered him a “pest.” Pick a better hill to die on Brother lol.
Peadawg
March 27th, 2012
4:48 pm
Thulsa Doom with his boot on liberal throats
March 27th, 2012
4:46 pm
I never thought I would agree with your crazy ars on something
.
JohnnyReb
March 27th, 2012
4:48 pm
Jay
March 27th, 2012
4:35 pm
Jay, you would debate a sign post.
Apparently, that’s just what I’ve been doing.
______________________________________
That’s a good come-back, or at least a funny one. I suggest you check with an attorney familiar with gun laws. Ask him/her about states that enforce a duty to retreat and then come back and eat crow. On the otherhand, if I’m wrong, instead of eating crow I’ll buy you a steak dinner with libation.
Thulsa Doom with his boot on liberal throats
March 27th, 2012
4:48 pm
Rush to judgement- Zimmerman = Duke lacrosse team part 2
Butch Cassidy
March 27th, 2012
4:49 pm
I had to take the law into my own hands just the other day. I was standing on the subway platform a nd a kid in a hoodie with a bag of skittles cut in front of me. I had no choice but to blow him away. I’m sure it’s a lesson that the rest of the 2nd graders on their field trip will never forget.
Thulsa Doom with his boot on liberal throats
March 27th, 2012
4:49 pm
Peadawg,
Even stranger things have happened.
Fred ™
March 27th, 2012
4:51 pm
JamVet
March 27th, 2012
4:37 pm
just like the New Orleans Police stood their ground during the Katrina aftermath……….
Is it just me or does this guy seldom make any sense?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You have the advantage of me Jamvet. I have no idea who this alt is. What’s his ‘non stripper” name lol.
Rick in Grayson
March 27th, 2012
4:51 pm
How about the President getting involved here and using descriptions of race that have nothing to do with this situation. The racial descriptions were not needed. Just Obama (like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton…playing the RACE card). We are now at the stage of using “WHITE” Hispanic (Hispanic is an ethnicity and compasses all “races” of Spanish heritage).
Are these racial descriptions something the President needed to add?
Why does he not “feel” for Zimmeran’s family. Zimmerman shot Martin because Martin would not stop bashing his head into the pavement. Zimmerman was yelling for help and Martin continued to beat on him.
Like the Cambridge, MA incident, why does the President feel a need to add his two cents. Why doesn’t he let the police and courts weigh in on this incident? Did the President have all the FACTS?
————————
US President Barack Obama weighed into the controversial killing of a black teenager in Florida in very personal terms on Friday, comparing the boy to a son he doesn’t have and calling for US “soul searching” over how the incident occurred.
Seventeen-year-old Trayvon Martin, dressed in a “hoodie” sweatshirt, was shot dead a month ago in Sanford, Florida by a 28-year-old white Hispanic neighbourhood watch volunteer who said he was acting in self-defence.
“If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon,” Obama said in his first comments about the shooting, acknowledging the racial element in the case.
“Obviously, this is a tragedy,” Obama told reporters. “I can only imagine what these parents are going through. And when I think about this boy, I think about my own kids.”
————————————————–
too little time
March 27th, 2012
4:51 pm
If I have to, as a matter of course, go through a bad area of town every day where I KNOW that I may be accosted or threatened on any given day, then I have a choice. Stand my ground or flee. You, Jay, are saying that I should always flee. But suppose I have no car and he ONLY way to the grocery store, bus stop, work is through an area where I might be accosted. If I am always forced to flee, then neighborhood thugs win. They will be able to control access around the neighborhood by anyone on foot. Without a stand-your-ground law, thugs ALWAYS win.
Before the advent of the gun, thugs nearly always won. Travelers banded and traveled together for safety. It was the only way to get from point A to point B without being robbed. Even banded together, the outcome was not always favorable. Guns changed that.
In a world without guns, the biggest and strongest of society win. The smallest and weakest lose. You, Jay, are advocating the biggest and strongest should always win and should be able to victimize without recourse or fear. The small and weak should always run away.
The Martin case has a lot of holes. Even if Martin DID break the guy’s nose, I think he was justified. If some guy was following me/ challenging me with a gun, I might try to break his nose too. Zimmerman had the option to report the suspect and walk away. In pursuing Martin, (IMHO) he gave up his right to “stand your ground”. He was never threatened until he threatened Martin FIRST, and it is pretty clear to me that he threatened Martin first (Martin’s phone call: “someone is following me”). This is clearly not a “stand your ground” case, and police should have arrested Zimmerman.
William
March 27th, 2012
4:52 pm
“I had to take the law into my own hands just the other day. I was standing on the subway platform a nd a kid in a hoodie with a bag of skittles cut in front of me. I had no choice but to blow him away. I’m sure it’s a lesson that the rest of the 2nd graders on their field trip will never forget.”
You sure are lost without the Sundance Kid.
Thulsa Doom with his boot on liberal throats
March 27th, 2012
4:52 pm
Fred,
Calling him a fanatic is just heated rhetoric on Jay’s part. The neighborhood had had several burglaries and he was just a concerned citizen tired of the crap. I see nothing fanatical about that. Do you have a link where the cops called him a pest?
Matti
March 27th, 2012
4:52 pm
Thulsa,
While you’re clearing things up for us: If you were to escape from the institution where you are currently housed for safekeeping, and actually threaten to put your little “boot” on my throat, is it okay for me to shoot you? Just want to be clear on the rules, since I’m a small female and easily frightened.
Jay
March 27th, 2012
4:53 pm
Thulsa, your drama queen act is tiresome.
“It was only when Tayvon followed him back to his car that Zimmerman fired the weapon in self defense.”
For all of your caterwauling, none of us knows whether that is true. That is what an investigation is supposed to determine. And the sad truth is, I suspect that in their haste to clear the case that night, the Sanford officers did so little good police work in mapping the crime scene, etc., that we may never know.
They BOTH suck
March 27th, 2012
4:53 pm
“One controversial case and libs want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Typical- Their emotions always get the better of them over rationale and logic.”
When Doomy has run out of his broad brushes and he just can’t help himself
http://retroclipart.co/design/royalty-free-retro-red-blue-and-yellow-spray-painter-logo-by-patrimonio-1392
Just cut it out already
March 27th, 2012
4:56 pm
I’m still waiting on the race baiters Sharpton and Jackson to apologize to the Duke Lacrosse Team. I guess I’ll have a better chance of hearing Obama apologize to muslims.
Just cut it out already
March 27th, 2012
4:56 pm
“your drama queen act is tiresome.”
And the deflections continue from Bookman.
Common Sense isn't very Common
March 27th, 2012
4:56 pm
The witness (unidentified yet) stated that Zimmerman was on his back on the grass getting hit.
So how did he get a gash on the back of his head?
Why are people assuming that he was attacked near his truck? (I haven’t seen any reports of where exactly the fight took place).
Was Zimmerman ever convicted of violence? If so Florida should have disqualified him from a carry permit.(according to the Fl. website)
William
March 27th, 2012
4:57 pm
““If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon,” Obama said in his first comments about the shooting, acknowledging the racial element in the case.”
Actually, now that I think about it, this is far from certain. Since he is mulatto, his son (if he has one) might look caucasian.
Lord Help Us
March 27th, 2012
4:57 pm
‘Rush to judgement- Zimmerman = Duke lacrosse team part 2′
The Duke LaCrosse team killed a kid?
Just cut it out already
March 27th, 2012
4:57 pm
“For all of your caterwauling, none of us knows whether that is true. That is what an investigation is supposed to determine. ”
Follow your own advice and stop making asinine comments about something you have no idea about.
HIPPOCRIT
March 27th, 2012
4:57 pm
hey stonethrower
oj wasn’t convicted because he didn’t kill nicole and ronnie
there were two trials going on
for white america it was a murder trial
for black america it was a corrupt LA police dept that had run roughshod over the black community for decades…….. (later proven when their elite squad was caught in massive corruption scandal planting evidence and lying on the stand.)
TRAYVON is two issues
black america is reacting to why a young black man in a hoodie is profiled and then killed
and then why the police just let zimmerman go right afterwards……… if trayvon had shot a white guy in this scenario can anyone honestly say that the Sanford police would have just let him go on self defense?
Jay
March 27th, 2012
4:58 pm
Your romanticized theory aside, guns changed none of that, “Time.”
Guns merely gave the bullies and thugs more firepower. They gave even little guys the chance to become bullies and thugs.
Bad guys by definition will almost always be the one who pulls the gun first. And the person who pulls first usually wins.
Lord Help Us
March 27th, 2012
4:59 pm
‘the person who pulls first usually wins.’
If your definition of winning is similar to Charlie Sheen’s…
JamVet
March 27th, 2012
4:59 pm
I’m sure it’s a lesson that the rest of the 2nd graders on their field trip will never forget.
Love it.
Fred, maybe I was a tad harsh on HIPPO, but even after Jay’s providing info on the matter, I still have no idea what his obtuse – to the point of needing a codebreaker – post meant!
As far as the apparently LAPD quality police work done, the governor of Florida, that arch-liberal and anti-gun nut, Jeb Bush said,
“This law does not apply to this particular circumstance… Stand your ground means stand your ground. It doesn’t mean chase after somebody who’s turned their back.”
Bush expressed sympathy to the family of Trayvon Martin, but also said that the wheels of justice can be slow:
“[The lack of arrest] doesn’t make sense to me… You’ve got to let the judicial process work. Hopefully it’s done at a pace that is respectful for people hurting.”
http://www.inquisitr.com/209978/florida-gov-jeb-bush-says-stand-your-ground-law-doesnt-apply-to-trayvon-martin-shooting/
Just cut it out already
March 27th, 2012
5:00 pm
“Bad guys by definition will almost always be the one who pulls the gun first.”
Yep, and people like you will keep defending them.
Jay
March 27th, 2012
5:01 pm
The mosquitoes are out early this year I see.
Orange12
March 27th, 2012
5:01 pm
It keeps repeat offenders off the streets in Florida which is something other judicial systems fail to do.
HIPPOCRIT
March 27th, 2012
5:01 pm
trayvon martin had a legal right to STAND HIS GROUND
he was being pursued by a sketchy hispanic
he felt threatened and his life was in danger so he attacked his assailant
who then shot him
zimmerman was trying to steal trayvon’s skittles and tea
Thulsa Doom with his boot on liberal throats
March 27th, 2012
5:01 pm
“For all of your caterwauling, none of us knows whether that is not true.”
Jay,
The typo correction needed only 1 word. Schweet!
“And the sad truth is, I suspect that in their haste to clear the case that night, the Sanford officers did so little good police work in mapping the crime scene, etc., that we may probably never know.”
Or another way of looking at it could be that it was so plainly obvious to the police by looking at the crime scene and seeing that Zimm’s story matched up with the crime scene and the eyewitness who later stated that Trayvon was on top of Zimm breaking his nose and slamming his head into the concrete that it was an open and shut case of self defense. Never did consider that did ya?
They BOTH suck
March 27th, 2012
5:01 pm
Doom on most days
http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/how-to-paint-a-house-5.jpg
Doom in the last two days
http://www.house-painting-info.com/image-files/exterior-painting-spraying.jpg
Anyway it comes at you…….. expect generalities and hyperbole to rule the day…………..
Doom: thanks for the laughs
Dude: you are certainly a trip…….. no doubt
Glad you are a regular on this blog
William
March 27th, 2012
5:02 pm
“Black america is reacting to why a young black man in a hoodie is profiled and then killed and then why the police just let zimmerman go right afterwards…if trayvon had shot a white guy in this scenario can anyone honestly say that the Sanford police would have just let him go on self defense?”
Zimmerman does not appear to be “white” from the pictures I have seen; he looks more Hispanic than anything. He has a whitish sounding name, though. So I am not sure you point is valid in this case.
skipper
March 27th, 2012
5:02 pm
No easy answers here…..if thugs would quit preying on folks (see Ga. Tech students, etc.) then laws like this would not be enacted. These vermin have caused so much trouble that mistakes are bound to happen. Folks have had enough of being threatned, robbed, etc. So now there is an outcry….ok, understood. However, when these rats start leaving people alone maybe innocents won’t get dragged in. See the news from Atlanta, Jay….give me some REAL (not supplied by libs or righties, who tend to slant views their way) stats on murders, carjackings, etc. Where are they happening? Where do the shootings occur? REAL stats, like shooting victims that appear daily at Grady? Folks are tired of it…..what do you do?
HIPPOCRIT
March 27th, 2012
5:04 pm
william
i didnt say that he was killed by a white guy…………. the point is a young african american male was profiled and is dead because of it
to deny that is ludicrous
Union
March 27th, 2012
5:04 pm
Jay
March 27th, 2012
4:58 pm
“Bad guys by definition will almost always be the one who pulls the gun first. And the person who pulls first usually wins.”
incorrect on so many levels..
Paul
March 27th, 2012
5:05 pm
Person drives the speed limit on the highway in the left lane. Somebody says “I don’t like what that person’s doing” and takes it upon himself to teach them a lesson and causes a wreck. People say ‘well if that person in the passing lane would’ve moved over this wouldn’t have happened.”
Guy’s walking in his neighborhood, minding his own business. Some other person decides he wants to interject himself into the guy’s situation. People say “well, if the guy minding his own business had just done what the other guy wanted this wouldn’t have happened.”
There’s a pattern here -
Union
March 27th, 2012
5:06 pm
what was trayvon’s twitter account name? i forget
William
March 27th, 2012
5:07 pm
“I didnt say that he was killed by a white guy…the point is a young african american male was profiled and is dead because of it.”
Well, stuff is coming out about Trayvon. I am not interested in besmirching his character, but it appears he was not a choirboy. So I don’t know how much he may have contributed to what happened.
Thulsa Doom with his boot on liberal throats
March 27th, 2012
5:07 pm
They BOTH suck,
You wanna talk about broad brushes? How about all the broad brushing of Zimmerman- fanatic, murderer, nut, etc. You might need some a that paint for the liberals on here that have made many a broad brush about Zimmerman the last few days.
Just cut it out already
March 27th, 2012
5:08 pm
Paul 5:05 = Fail
Logical Dude - slut and ho
March 27th, 2012
5:08 pm
“ZIMMERMAN DID RETREAT”
AFTER HE GOT OUT OF HIS CAR TO PURSUE THE TEENAGER.
Once he got out of his car, he loses his argument for self-defense.
Just cut it out already
March 27th, 2012
5:08 pm
“what was trayvon’s twitter account name? i forget”
A name that would get you banned on this site.
Boris Badnoff
March 27th, 2012
5:08 pm
It should be noted that Martin’s mother was so emotionally upset over her son’s death she trademarked his name so she can profit from any use of it. Have no idea what actually happened but the same lynch mob that was after the Duke lacrosse players are after Zimmerman. I’ll withhold judgement. Stand your ground simply means if someone threaten you, you have options other than turning tail and see if you can duplicate Superman’s feat of running faster than a speeding bullet. The best stratagem is to avoid confrontations and forget about it. Fortunately for bloggers, bullets don’t come out of monitors.
Jefferson
March 27th, 2012
5:09 pm
I’ve took a whoopin’ before just to get in a good lick.
Skip
March 27th, 2012
5:11 pm
“incorrect on so many levels” Well you sure convinced me.
Aquagirl
March 27th, 2012
5:12 pm
Person drives the speed limit on the highway in the left lane.
Geez, is that you? MOVE OVER.
Thomas
March 27th, 2012
5:12 pm
Skipper- from the AJC
Nearly 100 indicted, arrested in APD/Fulton auto theft operation- they were stealing old cars which clearly discriminates against younger autos.
Always remember you are only a minority when the libs label you a minority. You only deserve justice when the liberals decide you deserve justice. Libs are self annointed judge and jury. Neo cons are self annointed military generals.
You can charge a ham sandwich, you can indict a ham sandwich, but you generally cannot convict a ham sandwich.
Fred ™
March 27th, 2012
5:12 pm
Thulsa Doom with his boot on liberal throats
March 27th, 2012
4:52 pm
Fred,
Calling him a fanatic is just heated rhetoric on Jay’s part. The neighborhood had had several burglaries and he was just a concerned citizen tired of the crap. I see nothing fanatical about that. Do you have a link where the cops called him a pest?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Sort of. Also … it now seems confirmed, as I suggested last week, that George Zimmerman was a cop wannabe. I’ve now read reports that most of the 47 calls Zimmerman made to 911 were considered by the police to be nuisance calls; and that Zimmerman did, in fact, want to be a cop.
http://www.boortz.com/weblogs/nealz-nuze/2012/mar/26/trayvon-update/
but then again maybe you’ll call Boortz a leftist or a liberal. Certainly not someone you can believe………
Thulsa Doom with his boot on liberal throats
March 27th, 2012
5:12 pm
William,
According to his father Zimm is Hispanic. His mother is peruvian and apparently Zimm considers himself hispanic. Not that it really matters.
getalife
March 27th, 2012
5:13 pm
If you get in a fight now, just come out shooting.
It is legal now.
Jay
March 27th, 2012
5:13 pm
Skipper, the FBI says in 1990, 767 people were murdered in Georgia.
In 2010, the number was 566.
That’s a 26 percent decrease in the number of murders in a time frame in which the number of people in Georgia grew by 50 percent.
In other words, things are getting a lot better, not a lot worse.
TaxPayer
March 27th, 2012
5:14 pm
I think the NRA is quite pleased with the added gun sales resulting from their promotion of stand your ground laws and other fear and hate mongering efforts.
William
March 27th, 2012
5:14 pm
“Media Matters writer ’sorry’ after blasting Drudge for Martin photo. Hoo-boy.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/27/media-matters-honcho-sorry-after-blasting-drudge-for-trayvon-photo/#ixzz1qM1D7qTA
Fred ™
March 27th, 2012
5:15 pm
Just cut it out already
March 27th, 2012
4:56 pm
I’m still waiting on the race baiters Sharpton and Jackson to apologize to the Duke Lacrosse Team. I guess I’ll have a better chance of hearing Obama apologize to muslims.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Why in the hell would you be waiting for that? Those two asshats are meaningless. no one cares about them except you mindless right wing fanatics, the rest of the world ignores them……..
Paul
March 27th, 2012
5:16 pm
Aquagirl
Please read the rest of the conditions where it was noted “someone else decides to teach them a lesson and causes a wreck and people blame the person in the left lane.”
It’s about justifying the lawbreaker at the expense of the law obeyer.
Thulsa Doom with his boot on liberal throats
March 27th, 2012
5:16 pm
“Sort of. Also … it now seems confirmed, as I suggested last week, that George Zimmerman was a cop wannabe.”
So…
Rick in Grayson
March 27th, 2012
5:17 pm
I agree with SKIPPER. Jay please give us the numbers on thugs beating up on people and include the racial descriptions please! I would be shocked to hear that any citizens of African-American descent robbed, raped, or killed a whitey.
Please include the percents, because I sure that whitey in general has a very bad record in these manners. Maybe blacks should listen to Bill Cosby for a change and take more responsibility for their kids. Maybe they would do better in school also, of course, without the help of Beverly FRAUD and the Atlanta posse of cheating/lying teachers.
They BOTH suck
March 27th, 2012
5:18 pm
TD
I’m sure you have noted that I have called out bloggers from all side numerous times……
I’ve said several times that I personally do not think it is a racial issue and in my opinion I think Zimmerman was over zealous and now we have a tragic situation. Of course my opinion is only based on what I have read and heard and do not know all the facts, have said as much and can only hope that any decisions from local, state or federal authorities are based solely on facts…….
Generally speaking when I post something or reply to a post I make a damn good effort not to say all this, all that, every time, etc, etc. Granted I understand that one can only discern so much from what a person is writing on a blog, but when individuals consistently use broad brushes, they either are uninformed or wish to only paint a picture that meets their own thoughts and ideology…… facts be damned.
‘
I do not live in a world of absolutes, generalities and talking points…. maybe you do or at least a good part of the time approach this blog in that manner. Your choice, like it is for others on ALL sides who do the same, but pretty myopic to say the least
JamVet
March 27th, 2012
5:18 pm
Here is what I have read.
Zimmerman hit a cop and was arrested in 2005.
He apparently beat up his girl friend a few times, had a restraining order placed against him by her, but said he was the victim. (Hmmmm, that sounds familiar).
As noted above, he called the Sanford Police Department four dozen times to report things from open windows and garage doors to god knows what.
He was armed and looking for trouble that day is what it looks like. And he found it. And is going to have one helluva life now for his senseless killing of a harmless kid who was doing nothing more than walking home from the convenience store.
No wonder folks are PO’d…
Paul
March 27th, 2012
5:18 pm
and Aquagirl
I drive in the middle or right lanes. Unless I feel like really going. Then I get irritated by the left lane oblivious drivers or the left lane with an attitude drivers but I don’t get on their tails or cut in front of them.
(forgot the smiley in my previous post)
Thulsa Doom with his boot on liberal throats
March 27th, 2012
5:19 pm
“Those two asshats are meaningless. no one cares about them except you mindless right wing fanatics, the rest of the world ignores them……..”
No doubt. Those were a lot of right wing asshats at that black church surrounding Sharpton and trayvons mom. Jesse Jackson? Yep. He’s got a lot of rightwing asshats calling in to his radio program every Sunday to talk about black community issues.
Recon 0311 2533
March 27th, 2012
5:19 pm
It’s actually a good law. Jurisdictions across all 50 states utilize the consideration of Ability, Opportunity and Jeopardy to determine if deadly force was justifiable. Each jurisdiction applies this metric in varying degrees. Ability means did the deceased possess the ability to maim or kill. Physical size, was the deceased armed, did the deceased behave in a threatening manner as observed by eyewitnesses. That’s probably the easiest determination. Next is opportunity, did the shooter have the opportunity to flee thus avoiding a confrontation that could escalate. Last is jeopardy, would a prudent clear thinking individual have reason to believe that their life was in danger.
The two latter considerations are ambiguous and could result in an over zealous prosecutor twisting facts that could result in finding cause for prosecuting the shooter. Stand your ground was designed to protecting someone caught in a life threatening confrontation from being unfairly prosecuted should they have to employ deadly force to protect their life or the life of someone else.
William
March 27th, 2012
5:20 pm
“William, according to his father Zimm is Hispanic. His mother is peruvian and apparently Zimm considers himself hispanic. Not that it really matters.”
It matters some, I think. When I first read about this incident, I assumed (from his name) that he was white (as I suppose many did). In that case, it would be yet another instance of white-on-black violence, real or imagined. If he is Hispanic, than I suspect some conniving liberals would be less willing to claim racial motivation as that would possibly erode support for Democrats among that group.
getalife
March 27th, 2012
5:22 pm
My fighting days are over so it is good to know I can just shoot them .
Gator Joe
March 27th, 2012
5:22 pm
This law should be renamed the “The Insecure, Whimpy, Armed, Angry,White Guy Act”.
If Zimmerman stays put, as the dispatcher directed, rather than pursuing and acosting this young man, then he wouldn’t have gotten his a– kicked, and he wouldn’t be a murderer today.
Common Sense isn't very Common
March 27th, 2012
5:22 pm
JamVet@5:18 pm
Here is what I have read.
Zimmerman hit a cop and was arrested in 2005.
He apparently beat up his girl friend a few times, had a restraining order placed against him by her, but said he was the victim. (Hmmmm, that sounds familiar).
———————————————————————————
According to Fl. law if he was convicted on any of those charges he should not have been issued a carry permit.
I couldn’t find anything about those charges. Was he convicted or just charged?
Jay
March 27th, 2012
5:23 pm
Rick, racial groups don’t commit crimes.
Individuals do.
But I suspect that concept isn’t one that you’re willing to accept.
Common Sense
March 27th, 2012
5:24 pm
Because what yo do not get is that after you have to use force to defend yourself with no place to retreat, folks like you will claim you should have retreated and then charge you with a crime.
Without being able to stand your ground, the relatives and lawyers of criminals will feel as if they have won the lottery when they get to sue and bankrupt you.
That’s why.
William
March 27th, 2012
5:25 pm
“Rick, racial groups don’t commit crimes. Individuals do.”
Well, there is such a thing a conspiracies. Nonetheless, individuals are charged even if groups do act criminally.
Fred ™
March 27th, 2012
5:25 pm
Jeb Bush said,
“This law does not apply to this particular circumstance… Stand your ground means stand your ground. It doesn’t mean chase after somebody who’s turned their back.”
Jamvet: You are a much better hater than I and certainly further to the left, but am I wrong in thinking that Jeb would have made a pretty good president? Much better than the idiots the right are running now? It’s a moot point, he will NEVER get the chance after the hose job big brother did…….
Lord Help Us
March 27th, 2012
5:25 pm
‘racial groups don’t commit crimes.
Individuals do.’
Rick has a point, Jay. We also need to know how many of the perpetrators are male…those ‘people’ are much more likely to rob, rape and murder, you know…
Thulsa Doom with his boot on liberal throats
March 27th, 2012
5:25 pm
Jamvet,
Can you provide those links. I read where he was arrested by the cops but did not read that he actually hit a cop which is much more serious. Domestic violence? I read that also but it never stated that he actually even hit the woman.
Jay
March 27th, 2012
5:26 pm
Because what yo do not get is that after you have to use force to defend yourself with no place to retreat, folks like you will claim you should have retreated and then charge you with a crime.
No.
We won’t.
William
March 27th, 2012
5:28 pm
“Jamvet: You are a much better hater than I and certainly further to the left, but am I wrong in thinking that Jeb would have made a pretty good president? Much better than the idiots the right are running now? It’s a moot point, he will NEVER get the chance after the hose job big brother did…….”
I have thought so. In fact, when his older brother was going for his first nomination I distinctly remember thinking “Why him and not Jeb”?
Union
March 27th, 2012
5:28 pm
well.. the upside is.. his mom had the business sense in this tragedy to trademark his name..
BADA BING
March 27th, 2012
5:29 pm
This is what happens when you arm a Democrat. I am still waiting to see pics of a 12 y/o Zimmermann.
Aquagirl
March 27th, 2012
5:29 pm
It’s about justifying the lawbreaker at the expense of the law obeyer.
Actually the law says slower traffic should move to the right. It’s not an individual driver’s job to decide which traffic law trumps another.
Let’s be honest….driving the speed limit in the left lane with 20 cars stuck to your bumper has no motivation other than passive-aggressive wannabe cop behavior displayed by George Zimmerman. People decide there’s too much speeding going on, and dammit, since the cops aren’t doing anything it’s up to them.
Common Sense
March 27th, 2012
5:30 pm
Yes, you do.
Folks every day are charged and sued for defending themselves. And it isn’t cheap. It’s why groups such as USA Carry offer insurance to handle those very costs from those charges you say do not occur.
Thulsa Doom with his boot on liberal throats
March 27th, 2012
5:30 pm
Since I would like to avoid future trouble I would like to know from the liberals when its okay to defend myself. If someone is mounted on me and pounding my head into concrete and breaking my nose when do I get to defend myself or “stand my ground”. Kinda hard to stand my ground when I am in fact on my back being pummeled. I’m just using Zimmerman’s case as an example since according to the eyewitness he was on his back with Trayvon mounted on top of him pounding his head into the concrete.
In defending myself should I wait until I am
A) beaten unconscious
B) hemorraghing in the brain
C) lost several teeth, have a broken nose, swollen eyes
D) never
William
March 27th, 2012
5:31 pm
“Actually the law says slower traffic should move to the right. It’s not an individual driver’s job to decide which traffic law trumps another.”
Agreed. Or “police” what others do. If someone wants to go 90, he is going to do so even if you resist him (and probably in a more reckless manner). There is often NO way to stop someone bent on doing wrong.
BADA BING
March 27th, 2012
5:32 pm
Hispanic huh? I wonder if Zimmermann is gonna vote for obama next time.
Thulsa Doom with his boot on liberal throats
March 27th, 2012
5:34 pm
“Rick, racial groups don’t commit crimes.
Individuals do.
But I suspect that concept isn’t one that you’re willing to accept.”
I suppose he shouldn’t accept the concept either that many individuals of one group may in fact as a whole perpetrate more crime on average than individuals of say another group.
Paul
March 27th, 2012
5:35 pm
Union
“well.. the upside is.. his mom had the business sense in this tragedy to trademark his name..”
People were already appropriating him for their political and financial gain. His mom doesn’t have to do anything other than cause others to stop using her son’s name.
MamaSays
March 27th, 2012
5:35 pm
Part of the problem with all this is the fact that everyone thinks their belief is what the law says. So in most of these post, you liberally inclined types are demanding that Zimmernans rights be violated. The fact is that the most vocal who are demanding his arrest are the same ones who demand that police follow the letter of the law when dealing with minoritie
If we can cover one or two points please.
Bookman you are right the stand your ground law was presented as the legal reason for not arresting Zimmerman.
What you fail to mention is that Zimmerman most likely would not have been arrested in any state. As you point out the law gives us the rights that we always had anyway. The law was written to guide police in investigations as to what is legal and what is not. Reports indicate that the police asked the prosecutors for a manslaughter charge. That was denied.
People on here are making Zimmerman the bad guy with no reasonable application of common thought.
At some point you liberals decided that it was the innocent law abiding citizen who had to give ground. You threw out our rights and placed the burden of responsibility on us. The crooks can do whatever they wish yet you ask why did Zimmerman do what he did.
Law is based on the theory of what would a reasonable person in that situation do. They are not required to check the latest stats on black teen deaths at the hands of “whites”, they are not required to back down when they are acting as a watchman and they have the right to shoot if they are being physically overwhelmed. These rights are in force in every state.
I am overwhelmed with the lack of inquiries as to what this kid wad doing. You simply accept that it is ok for him to trespass in order to get to his fathers girlfriends house—it isn’t.
Not one reporter as asked or answered the question that a person with the ability to think would ask. Nor has anyone tried to put themselves in Zimmermans shoes.
9 burglaries in a gated community should have had the neighborhood watch group active and alert. Looking for anyone who wasn’t normally seen on the property.
Any person who is wearing a jacket with the hoodie up when it is 80 degrees should be looked at with some wonder. They should be monitored and or followed and the police should have been called. I am sure Zimmerman has an idea of who belongs in the This gated community and as a watchmen he was given the trust of the members of that secured community to help ensure their safety. He was given the task of trying to find out why anyone is on the property, not just Martin. Once Martin made the decision to trespass he started what turned into a tragic event.
Simply put had Trayvon followed a very simple law of not trespassing he would have not been followed. Had Trayvon gotten off the phone with his girl and called the police himself, instead of handling the matter as he saw fit, which you folks seem to dismiss, he would have never been in a confrontation. Remember Zimmermans last words to 911 were ” I lost him”. Trayvon found Zimmerman didn’t he ?
Fred ™
March 27th, 2012
5:36 pm
JamVet
March 27th, 2012
5:18 pm
He was armed and looking for trouble that day is what it looks like. And he found it. And is going to have one helluva life now for his senseless killing of a harmless kid who was doing nothing more than walking home from the convenience store.
No wonder folks are PO’d…
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You left out the thing that pisses me off the most. The people who would DEFEND this POS. I wish they could spend time in jail with Zimmerman……
TaxPayer
March 27th, 2012
5:36 pm
I see Republicans are NOW turning to self defense after the fact in their arguments against Jay’s claim of stupidity regarding one of their stupid laws.
Fred ™
March 27th, 2012
5:38 pm
Really Jay? Censorship has gone this far? I’ma in moderation (after the post was clearly allowed) for posting the kids Twitter name? Have we gone that far to the dark side?
Just damn. Maybe I am just to damn real for you and your sensibilities………..
Logical Dude - slut and ho
March 27th, 2012
5:38 pm
Mama says: People on here are making Zimmerman the bad guy with no reasonable application of common thought.
Ummm, he KILLED somebody.
I think the outrage is that there was no real investigation into it.
“Oh, he says it was self – defense? Okay, let him go”
Paul
March 27th, 2012
5:38 pm
Aquagirl
I know, in some states that’s what the law says.
Your second paragraph was the real point – people will seek to excuse one who causes death or injury if they feel some association with the perpetrator. In the traffic case, it’s the association of getting peeved at left lane hogs or the attitude of “I’ll do what I want in my vehicle.” In the other case – well, I’m not too sure what the identification is other than some macho thing.
Except in the case at hand, the victim wasn’t doing anything to cause offense other than existing.
William
March 27th, 2012
5:39 pm
“Since I would like to avoid future trouble I would like to know from the liberals when its okay to defend myself. If someone is mounted on me and pounding my head into concrete and breaking my nose when do I get to defend myself or “stand my ground”.
TD, I doubt any of the liberal posters here would honestly argue you don’t have a legitimate right to defend yourself. The question is the means of doing so. If you cannot carry a weapon, then I suppose you are out of luck – unless Jackie Chan drops in (as in his commercials) to save the day. I wonder what means of defense such liberals would support?
Midori
March 27th, 2012
5:39 pm
Hi Paul
Rick — what are you so mad about? And what is your fixation with Al Sharpton?
The Martin Family lawyer asked for him to be part of this investigation.
Logical Dude - slut and ho
March 27th, 2012
5:40 pm
Mama Says: Trayvon found Zimmerman didn’t he ?
Yeah, too bad he killed Zimmerman. .
Oh wait. . .
JamVet
March 27th, 2012
5:40 pm
Police originally told Martin’s parents that Zimmerman had a clean record. That information has turned out to be false. In 2005 a woman accused Zimmerman of domestic violence and had an injunction filed against him. The month prior he had been arrested for battery on a police officer and resisting arrest at a bar near the University of Central Florida.
I believe he went to a class in lieu of being charged.
I posted the info earlier and will try to find ti again. But later.
Off for a beer with friends…
Paul
March 27th, 2012
5:40 pm
Aquagirl
I must say, though, that as I look as some drivers I’m passing, I don’t think it’s passive-aggressive.
I just think they are totally clueless.
Fred ™
March 27th, 2012
5:40 pm
Well as long as I’m out the door, I may as well be shot as a sheep as shot as a lamb. Just DAMN I hate censorship. YOU Jay as a journalist who lives every day under protection from it under the 1st amendment should be ashamed dammit.
You hypocrites.
Oh and goodbye all lol.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/is-this-trayvon-martins-twitter-account/
William
March 27th, 2012
5:41 pm
“Really Jay? Censorship has gone this far? I’ma in moderation (after the post was clearly allowed) for posting the kids Twitter name? Have we gone that far to the dark side?”
It is probably automatic. His handle, I suspect, contained one of the words the blog application scans for.
Don't Forget
March 27th, 2012
5:41 pm
The lead homicide investigator in the shooting of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin recommended that neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter the night of the shooting, multiple sources told ABC News.
But Sanford, Fla., Investigator Chris Serino was instructed to not press charges against Zimmerman because the state attorney’s office headed by Norman Wolfinger determined there wasn’t enough evidence to lead to a conviction, the sources told ABC News.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-investigator-wanted-charge-george-zimmerman-manslaughter/story?id=16011674
Rick in Grayson
March 27th, 2012
5:42 pm
Jay, the point here is that I would like to know if there is more black on white violence (by percent) than white on black.
I absolutely accept that individuals commit crimes, not racial groups. But I am tired of hearing the black community thinking that they are always the victims. It is the black “racial group” that is all up in arms without even knowing the facts here. I might add that you didn’t do a very good jobs enumerating the known published facts of this case at the top of your blog.
I am quite sure that black on white robbery is more prevalent by percent in the city of Atlanta. Why isn’t the black community out marching to put a stop to all of this crime in Atlanta.
You are quick to infer that someone is racist, perhaps your liberal bias gets in the way in this instance.
Midori
March 27th, 2012
5:42 pm
Fred –
that wasn’t him. That’s another Trayvon Martin.
http://twitchy.com/2012/03/25/why-teamdueprocess-is-important-for-justice/
Fred ™
March 27th, 2012
5:43 pm
I have found that so called journalists and newspapers are much harsher on freedom of speech than anyone else. THEY want that right, they just don’t want YOU to have that right. What a bunch of hypocritical ass holes.