Time to set realistic course in Afghanistan

Staff Sgt. Robert Bales, left, has been accused of killing 16 Afghan civilians, including nine children. He is now being held at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, the military's high-security prison.

Staff Sgt. Robert Bales, left, has been accused of killing 16 Afghan civilians, including nine children. He is now being held at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, the military's high-security prison.

Two months after the Sept. 11 attacks, Robert Bales volunteered to join the U.S. Army. In the 11 years since then, he has served four overseas combat assignments, three in Iraq and the most recent in Afghanistan.

By last year, when orders came for that final deployment to Afghanistan, Bales did not want to go. The initial rush of patriotism after 9/11 had faded. He faced serious financial pressures, including the possible loss of his family’s home. His domestic life was apparently strained, in large part by his repeated deployments. But of course he went anyway, because what were his alternatives?

We all know how the story ends. For whatever reason, a “good soldier” whom others have described as calm, decent and level-headed apparently walked off his post in the middle of the night, entered a nearby Afghan village and killed 16 civilians, including nine children, before returning to post and turning himself in.

Bales will now have to face the full consequences of his actions. If the allegations are true, he brutally murdered 16 innocent people, and the backlash he provokes will probably end up costing American lives as well.

(It should be noted that the Afghan government and people do not accept that version of events, insisting that the killings were perpetrated by a squad of as many as 15 to 20 U.S. soldiers. Afghan army chief of staff Sher Mohammad Karimi, for example, has called it a pre-meditated massacre.)

As expected, the repercussions of the atrocity have been enormous. Afghan President Hamid Karzai is demanding that U.S. forces confine themselves to their bases. The struggle to win Afghan public support and turn its people against the Taliban has suffered another major, perhaps fatal setback to a goal that may have been unattainable anyway. And here at home, the tragedy has added to rising and widespread doubt about the wisdom of continuing military efforts in Afghanistan.

It is true, as some have pointed out, that one tragic incident should not be allowed to turn national policy. But it is also true that this is not one tragic incident; it is merely the latest indication of many that we are grasping for the unattainable in Afghanistan, and doing so at increasingly unacceptable cost. History tells us that Afghanistan has never been open to outside influence, and what little chance we may once have had to “win” there was probably lost when we diverted manpower, resources and attention away from that country in 2003 to concentrate on Iraq, an enterprise that our leaders deemed more important to our national interests.

Some, of course, remain unwilling to admit that reality.

Max Boot, an advocate of American empire and ardent supporter of our twin invasions, argues on behalf of an extended commitment to Afghanistan in the Weekly Standard, the house organ of the neocon movement:

“What, after all, is the alternative? Peace talks have scant prospect of success given that the Taliban are now betting—perhaps rightly—that they can simply wait us out. The likely result of a precipitous American pullout, which would trigger an equally hasty exit by our NATO allies, would be a major Taliban offensive in the east and south that would aim to take back Kandahar, Marja, and other population centers that have been secured at considerable cost over the past few years. The Afghan security forces would be likely to splinter along ethnic lines, and the entire country could well be plunged into a civil war as it was in the 1990s, when Kabul was regularly on the receiving end of artillery bombardments.”

Let me suggest two things:

1.) When your best argument for sustaining a decade-long war is “what is the alternative?”, I would suggest that your policy is strategically and morally bankrupt.

2.) The arguments made by Boot for sustaining our involvement in Afghanistan at current levels are the same arguments being made six years ago, four years ago and two years ago. And in those years, the lives lost, the resources invested and the sacrifices made by Bales and tens of thousands of others like him have brought us no closer to any definition of “victory” that Boot and others would be likely to accept.

Mitt Romney is also among those unwilling to accept that reality. As The Hill reports:

The former Massachusetts governor, appearing in an exclusive interview on Fox News Sunday, charged that Obama had failed to lead in Afghanistan, as well as with the intensifying situation between Iran and Israel.

Romney said the deteriorating conditions in Afghanistan could be traced to “the lack of the leadership on the part of our president.”

Romney pointed to Obama’s “interaction with (Afghan President Hamid) Karzai and with leaders there, as well as his relative detachment from our military commanders there and the fact that he published a specific date for a withdrawal,” as leading to the increasing instability and violence in the country.

Romney also said Obama “did not oversee elections in Afghanistan that would have convinced the people there that they had elected someone that they could have confidence in, [and] did not put enough troops into the surge, as what’s requested by the military.”

However, when asked how he would have exerted leadership as president, Romney borrowed heavily from the approach favored by that well-known foreign policy specialist Herman Cain:

“Before I take a stand at a particular course of action, I want to get the input from the people who are there,” Romney said.

Yeah. That’s some leadership for you right there.

– Jay Bookman

684 comments Add your comment

Common Sense isn't very Common

March 19th, 2012
10:37 am

I agree completely

Common Sense isn't very Common

March 19th, 2012
10:38 am

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
10:46 am

War is not pretty and war is not price. War makes the honey badger look like he’s a concern troll. There has never been an army that could conquer that part of the world, and the US is just another tick mark on that list.

I was under the impression that Afghanistan was targeted because of the camps where AQ trained their fighters and ran their operations. Many of AQ’s senior people are no longer in need of oxygen, the camps are no longer in operation, and yet, we are still in Afghanistan. We are not going to convert that society to a modern-day bastion of freedom and democracy if that’s not what they want in the first place. Instead of sending troops all over the world, we should redirect our methods and mentality when fighting extremism. We don’t need boots on the ground when we have munitions that can ring the doorbell before they destroy the home. Why put our military in harm’s way and under all that stress when it is not necessary to do so?

Mr_B

March 19th, 2012
10:46 am

We have paid a heavy price in Afghanistan. The Afghanis have paid a far heavier price. Time to leave them to the Taliban dominated government that they seem to want.

Keep Up--Te gusta losing woofinpoofs?

March 19th, 2012
10:47 am

Good article Jay. It is time we came home. Our troops are worn out as is out patience.

Senior Citizen Kane

March 19th, 2012
10:47 am

Maybe Mitt should have vowed to meet with the Taliban leaders without preconditions.

David Granger

March 19th, 2012
10:47 am

All the people in that country are not worth the loss of another American life, or another nickel of American taxpayer money. Bring the troops home now. Whatever happens when we leave just happens. There is not (nor is there EVER going to be) a strong democratic goverment there, and we are kidding ourselves to pretend otherwise.
Keep a close watch on whoever takes over (I’m betting on the Taliban…they’ve proven ruthless before, and probably will again) and make it clear that…if you provide safe haven and support for any group that attacks us, we will come in and kill as many of you as we can with no attempt at nation-building.

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
10:49 am

War is not pretty and war is not price

What the hell is my problem this morning??? Anybody know what I meant because I don’t. :)

Contrarian

March 19th, 2012
10:52 am

Meh. We’ll end this war only to start another one somewhere. We ‘Mericans are a war-loving, war-mongering people. “Democracy,” “freedom,” “human rights,” etc. etc. are catchphrases intended to make us and the rest of the world think we are a peace loving people. We aren’t. Everything we do is a ‘war.’

martin the calvinist

March 19th, 2012
10:52 am

like get out asap!

Mighty Righty

March 19th, 2012
10:53 am

Ptretty clear that understanding leadership is not present in this article. A leader is not a dictator. Aside from that observation, it was WRONG and STUPID to advise our enemy of our intention in advance, but what else can we expect from our weak kneed president. My opinion is to get out now without further delay before we apologize any more for our actions.

martin the calvinist

March 19th, 2012
10:54 am

hmm, like lets make decisions before having all the facts, that’s good leadership right there!

ty webb

March 19th, 2012
10:55 am

It’s a cluster%&*#…get out. Leave a carrier nearby from which we can launch drone attcks when needed.

They BOTH suck

March 19th, 2012
10:55 am

Mighty Righty

Good morning. What branch and years did you serve?

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
10:56 am

it was WRONG and STUPID to advise our enemy of our intention in advance,

And you think the people there are gonna be complacent with what they perceive as an “occupation” going on indefinitely? Many of the people of Afghanistan had no ideal of what happened on 9/11 for a long time and why we were in their country in the first place. We did not need to put troops on the ground to dismantle the training camps, which was the original intent of our incursion into Afghanistan.

Peadawg

March 19th, 2012
10:56 am

Let’s don’t make the same mistake w/ Afghanistan that we did w/ Iraq. We got Saddam; we should have been out a looong time ago. We’ve got Osama, now let’s get out.

Bernie

March 19th, 2012
11:00 am

The Smartest course of action is to withdraw NOW! We are now spending $850 million U.S. Dollars per week and there is no substantial improvevement even in the near term. Cuttting our Losses now, will leave some money for the next misadventure coming up soon.

N-GA

March 19th, 2012
11:04 am

There are at least two issues here. The first is multiple deployments of our troops….the second is the way we conduct war: defeat the enemy followed by occupation.

If we were smarter solving the second problem, the first could be avoided. The US military has shown repeatedly that it can quickly defeat most enemies: (Panama, Grenada, Kuwait, Afghanistan, Iraq). Where we fail is when we stay. We could save countless lives and money by simply defeating the enemy and leaving with the warning that we will return if their behavior doesn’t change.

However, our troops are “punished” by repeated deployments. This could be alleviated by using the draft. No, I don’t want to hear the argument that draftees make poor soldiers. Just look at Israel’s military (required service). Besides, most military personnel are REMF’s (non-combat). They may still be in harm’s way, just not so much. Draftees could be deployed in non-combat roles if that improves the quality of combatants. Unfortunately bringing back the draft is more a political issue than one driven by logic or need.

Neville Chamberlain

March 19th, 2012
11:05 am

I agree with Contrarian. War is never the answer. Well, almost never.

getalife

March 19th, 2012
11:06 am

Lets stop abusing our troops and rest them.

Lets return to peace and prosperity.

Nation build our country for a change.

Bernie

March 19th, 2012
11:06 am

Brosephus @10:56 am, ALL invaders leave Afghanistan much poorer than they were before coming in.
The INVADERS ALWAYS LEAVE. they never stay and weather you announce it or not the people of afghanistan always know you will leave. Its been 10years! Its Time!

We are now spending $850 million per week! Get a GRIP!

how much more is it worth?

Talking Head

March 19th, 2012
11:08 am

If you have a ‘connected’ device such as an iPhone, iPad, internet TV you are bugging yourself and your family to be spied on by the CIA and basically anyone who wants to know…this is crazy, Big Brother IS watching you

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2115871/The-CIA-wants-spy-TV-Agency-director-says-net-connected-gadgets-transform-surveillance.html

carlosgvv

March 19th, 2012
11:10 am

We should have been out of Afghanistan many years ago. With our incredibly hi-tech spy sattelites and other assets, we can easily scan the whole country and spot any potential terriorist threats to us. And yet, we stay there year after year with worse and worse results. I hope the reason for this is lack of proper leadership as the alternative explanation seems to be The Military-Industrial Complex getting as much profit out of this war as possible with no regard whatsover to the lives of our soldiers.

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
11:12 am

Bernie

Go back and re-read my posts before you try to tell me to get a grip. It’s quite obvious you have absolutely no comprehension of my position on Afghanistan. If you did, you would realize that your 11:06 post was completely unnecessary and a waste of bandwidth.

ty webb

March 19th, 2012
11:13 am

Looking back, what’s sadly comical is how much flack Bush got for the actions of lynndie england. Hopefully, this incident will give the “score keepers” some perspective.

Peadawg

March 19th, 2012
11:14 am

Talking Head, just use the same strategy as I do with regards to neighbors spying. If someone wants to be a peeping tom, walk around the house naked. Give ‘em a show.

If the CIA is willing to hack your camera on your phone, laptop, etc…surf the web butt ass naked.

Road Scholar

March 19th, 2012
11:15 am

Sorry to be off topic, but from a previous blog:

Jay you are right that Linnenkohl geared up a huge program of new projects that created uncertainty on their delivery. Why? Because Gov Perdue instructed the Department to gear up because he was going to sink more money into transportation. A lot more money..which he began with a large bond program (the same bond program that GDOT now spends $400M a year on retiring the debt). The majority of the bond money went to GRIP, 4 laning rural state highways to encourage jobs in rural counties…that was a bust. The money would be front loaded (as bonds do) and the projects had to be begun to be far enough along to use the money quickly by buying R/W and construction. Perdue never followed through.

Peadawg

March 19th, 2012
11:16 am

Or include a sig in all your emails saying something like “Oh yeah, if the CIA is reading this, ” then put a lot of random words that’ll get their attention :) .

getalife

March 19th, 2012
11:16 am

th,

Way late on the spying thingie.

Corrupt congress granted our telco’s immunity from prosecution.

Talking Head

March 19th, 2012
11:17 am

“If the CIA is willing to hack your camera on your phone, laptop, etc…surf the web butt ass naked.”

That would be hilarious for whomever is watching. I’m just wondering how far this will go though, do I think there be ‘Thought Police’ listening and watching? No, but I could see something similar coming in the near future.

Gator Joe

March 19th, 2012
11:17 am

Jay:
I can hear the Chickenhawks already chanting “cut and run.” They are irrelevant as far as this argument or any argument regarding the involvement of the US in a war. It’s easy for Romney and others like him to criticize the President when they don’t have the awesome resposibility for the lives and safety of American men and women serving in combat, not to mention the lives and safety or Afghan civilians.
The time to leave Afghanistan has come. Whether we leave on an announced or unannounced schedule for withdrawal the outcome will be the same. The world didn’t come to an end after we left Viet Nam.

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
11:19 am

If you have a ‘connected’ device such as an iPhone, iPad, internet TV you are bugging yourself and your family to be spied on by the CIA and basically anyone who wants to know…this is crazy, Big Brother IS watching you

No, what’s crazy is that you’re just now realizing this. You seem to forget the electronic surveillance that was allowed under the Patriot Act. You must also not have noticed that specific books always have to be special ordered by book stores if you want a copy. If they wanna track me, let’em. They’ll get bored after the first few days and leave me alone after that. I don’t care.

getalife

March 19th, 2012
11:20 am

willard refuses to take a position on this issue.

Not a leader.

Talking Head

March 19th, 2012
11:22 am

“No, what’s crazy is that you’re just now realizing this.”

Partially true. However the 2 way TV is something new since that technology didn’t exist 10 years ago. It’s mind blowing that a book I read many years ago that was written in 1948 described this scenerio.

JF McNamara

March 19th, 2012
11:25 am

Leave now, and sign an accord that allows us to attack any terrorist in their borders. I don’t care about Afghanistan. It’s the war on terrorism not the war on the Taliban.

We would be better of leaving and just bombarding the Taliban army if we need to. We can’t win the nation building war.

paulo 977

March 19th, 2012
11:25 am

David Granger

March 19th, 2012
10:47 am

All the people in that country are not worth the loss of another American life, or another nickel of American taxpayer money !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
___________________________________________

R..I..G..H..T and so it goes on …Who the he** are they? Just ragheads!!! They are not my “neighbors” !!!!

Peadawg

March 19th, 2012
11:26 am

” However the 2 way TV is something new”

Like I said, give ‘em a show if they want to watch. If you do some kind of workout while watching, let it all hang out.

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
11:26 am

It’s not mindblowing to me. Look at how people have gradually given up many of their rights to the government, and it’s plain to see. The fact that you have people actually championing the erosion of rights in the name of “protecting taxpayers” only shows that the public is more complicit in asking for the eradication of their rights as opposed to fighting dearly to keep them as the forefathers of this country did.

Road Scholar

March 19th, 2012
11:27 am

Give the chickenhawks an M-16, a few grenades, a bottle of water and ship them and their sons and daughters to Afghanistan. That will solve everything!

O'ByteMe - Fake-Irish Goon

March 19th, 2012
11:28 am

an advocate of American empire

We are an empire. We hate acknowledging it, but when the USSR collapsed, we were the lone empire on the planet. We’re the biggest driver of global economics, global interaction, etc. The only thing is — as a people (outside of neocons) — we don’t want to be in this position. We’d rather the rest of the world just get in line without us having to do much.

The problem with being an empire is that you end up with a lot of other actors who want to upstage you just because they feel the need to be noticed.

If we first acknowledge that we’re the lone empire on the planet, does that help clarify our position in relation to other countries? For an empire to keep going, we need to not have everyone else gang up on us. So we have to maneuver our foreign policy to keep bad actors busy.

If we leave Afghanistan now and warn the Taliban that we’ll re-commence bombing if they allow any AQ bases anywhere in their country, is that enough to move our empire forward?

Gator Joe

March 19th, 2012
11:29 am

N-GA @ 11:04, I agree with reinstating the draft, though for different reasons. If all able bodied men and women, yes women, were subject to having to serve in the military and with the possibility of combat, then suddenly there would be more reluctance about going to war unless it was absolutely necessary. The next generation of conscientous objectors and peace advocates would immediately emerge, and the ranks of the draft-age Chickenhawks would shrink.

getalife

March 19th, 2012
11:30 am

I care about American freedom.

I did not agree with Senator Obama and Clinton voted yes for telco amnesty.

That was the fight to stop them spying on you but you lost.

ByteMe - 99%-er who bathes

March 19th, 2012
11:32 am

How would the 99%-ers handle this?

Oh, right, they’re the ones over there dying for a vague “cause”.

Simple Truths

March 19th, 2012
11:33 am

Jay, glad to see you softened your stance from last week when you used the work “executed” to describe the events.

USinUK - missing the dogwoods ... not the pollen count ...

March 19th, 2012
11:35 am

“Looking back, what’s sadly comical is how much flack Bush got for the actions of lynndie england. ”

of course the difference is that Bush and Cheney advocated torture.

last time I heard, Obama has not advocated going into villages and killing indiscriminantly …

Normal, Plain and Simple

March 19th, 2012
11:35 am

Why are we still in Afghanistan, you ask? I say it’s simple. It’s not for national security, it’s not for “let’s fight them there so we don’t have to fight them here”. It’s not to promote democracy, and it’s certainly not to win “hearts and minds”.

It’s the Military Industrial Complex, folks. How can they sell there war sh*t if we don’t have these “police actions” that last for decades. I have said this before and I’ll say it here again. The lives lost, from Korea through Afghanistan, are merely human sacrifices to the American God of the Military Industrial Complex. They don’t care about lives lost when there’s money to be made.

307 more days

March 19th, 2012
11:36 am

getalife

March 19th, 2012
11:06 am

For once ion your life, I agree with you……………………….Bring them home, if necessary, let the drones do what they do best

ty webb

March 19th, 2012
11:37 am

usinuk,
lynndie england wasn’t a enhanced interrogator…try again.

Thomas

March 19th, 2012
11:38 am

If you are presiding (Congress or the Pres) and fill it is responsible to go to war- then go and win with your trillions of $s of the latest military might. See the Bush Sr. and the push back of the Iraqi forces out of Kuwait. It is foolish to do occupy/police movements as there is no end game. If Afghanistan truly threatens world peace- tell them their country is going to be flattened in 10 days and it is best to get out. Otherwise, no military action.

Jimmy62

March 19th, 2012
11:38 am

I like how you are blaming a guy who isn’t even in office. Here’s a clue: There’s this guy in office named Obama, and he can do something about this. Romney can’t. Who cares what Romney’s words are, what matters are Obama’s actions. And despite saying he would pull us out of Iraq and Afghanistan, we are still there. Why don’t you criticize him more instead of spending most of your column criticizing the words of someone who has no power to do anything with this situation and is thus irrelevant?

Doggone/GA

March 19th, 2012
11:41 am

“And despite saying he would pull us out of Iraq and Afghanistan,”

Except he didn’t say that.

AngryRedMarsWoman

March 19th, 2012
11:42 am

Horrible worthless place full of backwards people – they don’t want to be “saved” and they don’t want to be modern and they sure as heck don’t like us…they just want to live their oppressed tribal lives, so let them. Pull out. Drop a few well placed bombs as a warning and then keep some stealth units floating around to neutralize AQ if they start popping up. Don’t give much of a crap about the Taliban because they tend to stay at home and terrorize the people there – I am really sick and tired of trying to save people from groups like the Taliban when they won’t life a finger to help themselves and it simply results in a bunch of whiny and ungrateful people who never liked the USA to begin with. Pull it all out. No more aid either. You want to follow the Taliban, so let the Taliban take care of your humanitarian needs. Let’s start building roads, dams and schools right here in the USA instead of in some far flung craphole full of weakminded ingrates. Just sick of it all….bring our men and women back home NOW!

Keep Up--Te gusta losing woofinpoofs?

March 19th, 2012
11:43 am

“Don’t you dare ask a candidate what they would do if they were elected to office!” — Thomas Jefferson

Oh the poutrage and the evasion of a straight answer.

Recon 0311 2533

March 19th, 2012
11:43 am

Obama has lacked leadership in the war he once called the right war and the one we must win. Romney was correct in pointing it out. Having said that I believe it’s long past the time for us to depart but we should remind Karzai why we’ve been there and the 3000 we lost as a result of 9-11 a cowardly attack that was planned, ordered and controlled from within his own country. We will not tolerate a reconstitution of jihadist activities in Afghanistan and should that re-occur after our departure we will unleash whatever weaponry we possess necessary to destroy it.

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
11:43 am

I like how you are blaming a guy who isn’t even in office.

I like you you’re demonstrating your lack of reading comprehension skills. Nobody’s blaming Romney for anything. Pointing out that Romney is claiming that Obama lacks leadership and answers that his approach would be to defer his decision is not blaming him for anything. It’s only pointing out the fact that Romney would show a lack of leadership himself, therefore rendering him a hypocrite.

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
11:43 am

I like HOW you’re…. Man, this pollen has me jacked up like something awful..

Doggone/GA

March 19th, 2012
11:44 am

“it simply results in a bunch of whiny and ungrateful people who never liked the USA to begin with”

yeah, why the hell should they be whining because we invaded them when they didn’t ask us to? Bunch of ingrates, who just can’t appreciate what we did to them.

Paul

March 19th, 2012
11:44 am

Jay

When you published the thread regarding Romney’s selection of foreign policy advisers – those same people who championed war with Iraq, never admit to errors, push American intervention now – I wondered how it would manifest itself.

Now we know. Adherence to ideologically criticizing one’s opponents while admitting one has no clue what to do until one forms a committee.

Romney’s losing the foreign policy race.

Brosephus

Yes, he hit Afg because AQ was there, but that was only after the Taliban gov’t refused to turn them over. We said if we didn’t we’d topple their government. They didn’t and we did.

I see our big mistake as trying to install western democracy in a 9th century tribal culture. We should’ve worked with the tribal leaders. We didn’t, we got Karzai and the current mess.

N-GA

“We could save countless lives and money by simply defeating the enemy and leaving with the warning that we will return if their behavior doesn’t change.”

I agree. “Taliban leaders (looking them in the eye, face to face), you know why we came here. We are leaving. If you again harbor or sponsor acts of terror against us, or even if we think you’re planning something, we will come back and kill you, you and you. Negotiations are over. Good-bye.”

To sum it up, the Republican frontrunner has established no credibility on the subject.

If we have any chance of victory, we should send Newt over to lecture them. They’d beg us for a peace settlement.

Doggone/GA

March 19th, 2012
11:45 am

“I like HOW you’re…. Man, this pollen has me jacked up like something awful”

Yeah, but that one was obvious what you menat. I’m still working on “price”!

Scooter

March 19th, 2012
11:47 am

There was never hope for stabilizing Afghanistan, no matter what resources were devoted to it.

getalife

March 19th, 2012
11:48 am

You cons can’t talk about your right to privacy because you were scared to death of aq and allowed your party to vote yes on spying on you.

You get what you deserve.

Anyhoo about this issue.

The mission is the same as Iraq and we will leave about 50,000 troops there on a drone base.

Their President thinks they are ready to handle security but that is doubtful.

If you are serious about balancing our budget, stop being so scared cons and demand more defense cuts.

Keep Up--Te gusta losing woofinpoofs?

March 19th, 2012
11:48 am

Horrible worthless place full of backwards people

Ahh there is the kinder gentler less mean spirited people we have become…… Nice broad stroke.

USinUK - missing the dogwoods ... not the pollen count ...

March 19th, 2012
11:50 am

Ty – “lynndie england wasn’t a enhanced interrogator…try again.”

didn’t say she was an interrogator – she was, however, a specialist with the military police

then, W and Cheney seemed surprised that prisoner abuse was rampant after the AG basically gave the military carte blanche to ignore the Geneva Convention.

Doggone/GA

March 19th, 2012
11:50 am

“You cons can’t talk about your right to privacy because you were scared to death of aq and allowed your party to vote yes on spying on you”

And as we were repeatedly told at the time: if you aren’t doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about.

/snarc

Aquagirl

March 19th, 2012
11:51 am

Why the eff is this Max Boot chickenhawk lecturing our military? Give him a parachute and a chalkboard and kick him out of a plane over Taliban territory. He can lecture them on U.S. supremacy.

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
11:51 am

Paul

I know that, and I still say we could have hit AQ without putting boots on the ground. We have some of the best technology available anywhere, yet we chose not to use it until much later after things had gone on for more than 5 yrs. As to Karzai, I don’t trust him at all. At different points in his life, he’s been involved with the Mujahedeen, the Taliban, and the CIA. He’s probably more crooked than the actual members of AQ themselves.

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
11:53 am

Doggone

I’m still trying to figure that one out myself. I know I was thinking something completely different, but I have the slightest clue of what I was thinking. I’m hoping it comes back to me so that I can re-post and redeem myself. :)

JamVet

March 19th, 2012
11:54 am

…the Weekly Standard, the house organ of the neocon movement:

Thank goodness, I’ve not yet eaten lunch.

Because that sure is nauseous.

The lives of our children are infinitely more important the the blood lust of the Republican cowards and chickenhawks, who will sacrifice them from now until gawd knows when, for their pitiful little reasons.

And why they will never again get a new George Bush in the White House.

Paul

March 19th, 2012
11:54 am

Recon

“Obama has lacked leadership in the war he once called the right war and the one we must win. Romney was correct in pointing it out. Having said that I believe it’s long past the time for us to depart ”

If it’s “long past time for us to depart” then what difference does leadership in the last few months make?

USinUK - missing the dogwoods ... not the pollen count ...

March 19th, 2012
11:54 am

Doggone – 11:50 – no kidding.

getalife

March 19th, 2012
11:57 am

“And as we were repeatedly told at the time: if you aren’t doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about.”

Yup and the progressives put up a pretty fight like good Americans.

The cons did not and bowed down to spying.

So cons can stop whining about it..

Common Sense isn't very Common

March 19th, 2012
11:58 am

AngryRedMarsWoman

March 19th, 2012
11:42 am
Horrible worthless place full of backwards people – they don’t want to be “saved” and they don’t want to be modern and they sure as heck don’t like us…they just want to live their oppressed tribal lives, so let them.
——————————————————————————————–
When did we start talking about the Ga. Legislature again?

Normal, Plain and Simple

March 19th, 2012
11:58 am

Bro’,
For your sinus’s…a tot of warm Southern Comfort…won’t help the allergy attack, but it will do wonders for your attitude… :)

Recon 0311 2533

March 19th, 2012
11:58 am

“If it’s “long past time for us to depart” then what difference does leadership in the last few months make?”

Paul, he’s lacked leadership on this war for the last two years not in the past few months. He’s hardly mentioned anything about Afghanistan in his public statements for quite some time.

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
11:58 am

Romney was correct in pointing it out.

Um, yeah, because Romney means what he says and once he takes a position he sticks with it. lol Mittwit.

Paul

March 19th, 2012
12:01 pm

Brosephus

My take was the battle against AQ in Afghanistan (on the ground) was going pretty darn well while the CIA was running the show. Even when military special ops joined in. It was when things got taken over by Defense Dept that it started going downhill.

Regarding technology – when that began the AF was embarrassed to tell the Pres we had but a few Predator-type aircraft available. AF dragged their feet on it for years and years. I think that was one factor in the firing of the AF top general and Sec of AF – not just losing accountability over nuclear assets. When SecDef Gates was with CIA he went to the AF (couple decades ago) with a joint development proposal for drones. AF said “no pilots? Forget it, not interested.”

He didn’t see much change in attitude when he was SecDef. AF initially said to fly drones we had to give a person a college education, put him thru fixed wing pilot training, have him complete an initial tour of duty, then after spending those millions the person just might have the capability to fly drones.

‘course, the real reason was to protect the number of authorized pilots. So for bureaucratic self-interest the stalled the national good. The firings were a way to put the organization on notice that patience with resisting change was over.

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
12:01 pm

Normal

I was slow on getting my hands on some local honey, and now I’m paying the price. I’ll probably end up at my doc’s office pleading for a shot of the good stuff. I don’t have any SoCo around, but I do have some Overproof Rum that I’ll probably end up blending with some lemon juice and local honey later on. :)

F. Sinkwich

March 19th, 2012
12:02 pm

I wouldn’t worry too much about this, Jay.

We will surrender to the Taliban on O’bozo’s schedule as planned.

After surrendering Iraq to Iran, he’s on a roll…

Normal, Plain and Simple

March 19th, 2012
12:02 pm

Recon 0311 2533

March 19th, 2012
11:58 am

Please explain to me how letting the Generals fight is lack of leadership? And if it is a lack of leadership to you, what would you have him do?

Normal, Plain and Simple

March 19th, 2012
12:03 pm

Bro’ @ 1201….

That’ll work!

Keep Up--Te gusta losing woofinpoofs?

March 19th, 2012
12:04 pm

Which group is more likely to fight for privacy rights, regulations to create/assure privacy and to stop govt and private enterprise intrusion. Conservatives or Progressives? The Bush Policies as continued by the Obama Administration should be stopped.

Remember if you care to stop the erosion of privacy rights: Electronic Frontier Foundation, ACLU can be your friends…. [uh oh, that is going to create poutrage]

Paul

March 19th, 2012
12:04 pm

Recon

That’s all well and good, but let me rephrase. Would any conceivable change in leadership style have changed our outcome in Afghanistan? Or just delayed the inevitable?

If not, then I’ll submit this is just another excuse to criticize the President on an issue whose outcome would not have changed.

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
12:05 pm

Paul

Can’t argue with much of that. Surgical insertions against specific targets would have been much better than a sustained ground effort. Even before the drones, there were numerous GPS guided munitions that were readily available. Put a few people on the ground to use lasers, and then you had the added addition of laser guided munitions. That could have all been done to break up the camps and AQ’s leadership structure without putting so much of our military under the stress that they’ve faced by numerous deployments.

Rumsfeld should have been fired for that.

Paul

March 19th, 2012
12:05 pm

F. Sinkwich

If this is our defeat, could you tell us what victory would have looked like?

Paul

March 19th, 2012
12:06 pm

Brosephus

Yeah, that’s about what we were doing. Then the conventional forces just had to take over with ‘ready, fire, aim!!!!”

JamVet

March 19th, 2012
12:06 pm

Send Mitt’s kids and relatives who are service eligible.

And McConnell’s and Boehner’s and all these other cowards.

Have a lottery and take some poor schmuck GI and say, it’s you lucky day!

Some silver spoon fed trust fund baby is gonna take your place up at the front!

After all, George of the Bungle said we all have to share in the sacrifice. (I guess his twins never got the memo…)

Cue up CCR’s Fortunate Son

Ivan

March 19th, 2012
12:07 pm

“However, when asked how he would have exerted leadership as president, Romney borrowed heavily from the approach favored by that well-known foreign policy specialist Herman Cain:

“Before I take a stand at a particular course of action, I want to get the input from the people who are there,” Romney said.

Yeah. That’s some leadership for you right there.”

And yet, Mitt Romney isn’t Commander in Chief.

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
12:10 pm

F. Sinkwich

March 19th, 2012
12:02 pm

I wouldn’t worry too much about this, Jay.

We will surrender to the Taliban on O’bozo’s schedule as planned.

After surrendering Iraq to Iran, he’s on a roll…

At least he didn’t surrender to bin laden like bush did. Wasn’t the primary objective to get the people who attacked us? Iraq didn’t attack us. We attacked them.

Recon 0311 2533

March 19th, 2012
12:10 pm

“Um, yeah, because Romney means what he says and once he takes a position he sticks with it. lol Mittwit.”

You can hardly make that a creditable argument against Romney when you have a Commander-in-Chief who campaigned on how important winning the war in Afghanistan was for our national security during his 08 campaign and then virtually avoiding it since he’s been in office. It took him several months to approve the surge and when he finally did he also announces a withdrawal date. This guy isn’t a Commander-in-Chief, he’s only been a campaigner-in-chief and often just a complainer-in-chief.

USinUK - missing the dogwoods ... not the pollen count ...

March 19th, 2012
12:11 pm

Paul – 12:05 – Afghans performing the final scene of Footloose … with Kevin Bacon …

captguitarman

March 19th, 2012
12:14 pm

Excellent article. My own thinking on this topic has evolved (or devolved depending on your own point of view) to a point where I believe that all future US military action must be taken only to protect America’s clear and immediate best interests. No more spreading democracy, “nation building” or trying to export truth, justice, and the American way. After long wars and attempts to do that in Vietnam, and Iraq II, and Afghanistan, I would hope that Americans and America’s political and military leaders have finally realized that by fighting the kinds of “limited” wars we now fight, when it comes time to leave, the bad guys will always still be around, waiting patiently to take over again.

When we depart Afghanistan, it will not be long until it becomes very clear that all of the American lives lost and treasure expended there were ultimately for naught. Al Qaeda and the Taliban will once again quickly take control, and Karzi and his cronies will depart, while they still can, for their villas in France or Italy or wherever, taking hundreds of millions of American dollars with him. All future military action must be like Iraq I, with limited missions to hit hard, protect US interest, and then just leave, and come back if necessary and do it again.

It will be very discouraging and sobering for Americans to watch Afghanistan and then Iraq come back under control of the Islamists and terrorists who were in control of those nations prior to 9/11, but unless we plan to maintain a permanent, hot, military presence, that is exactly what the future holds. Sad but true.

ByteMe - 99%-er who bathes

March 19th, 2012
12:14 pm

We should declare “victory” and come home. We defeated AQ in Afghanistan. Our target was not the Taliban, except as they were hiding AQ. They aren’t doing that now, likely will never care to do that again, especially if we tell them we don’t care what they do as long as they don’t harbor destabilizing forces. We won! Move ‘em out!

getalife

March 19th, 2012
12:15 pm

willard voted present on this issue.

Failed leadership.

Not ready for prime time.

F. Sinkwich

March 19th, 2012
12:15 pm

“If this is our defeat, could you tell us what victory would have looked like?”

Sure, Paul.

A lot more dead terrorists.

Thanks for asking.

ByteMe

March 19th, 2012
12:15 pm

And on a WTF note… I post a comment and ALL the comments disappear from view? Jay??

godless heathen©

March 19th, 2012
12:15 pm

Bro, “That could have all been done to break up the camps and AQ’s leadership structure without putting so much of our military under the stress that they’ve faced by numerous deployments.

Rumsfeld should have been fired for that.”

Who upped the troop numbers in Afghanistan? Did Obama triple the number of troops on the ground.in Afghanistan? If he had all of these wonderful options, why did he do that?

ByteMe

March 19th, 2012
12:15 pm

Weird… posted another one under a different name and everything came back…??

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
12:16 pm

Recon — “This guy isn’t a Commander-in-Chief, he’s only been a campaigner-in-chief and often just a complainer-in-chief.”

It’s a shame that you find it necessary to make pejorative statements about the CINC and can’t say anything constructive.

E.g. ‘I’d like to see him do this in Afghanistan’ or ‘I think it’d be helpful to pursue this course of action with the Taliban.’

Why, it almost looks like you’re letting your partisanship overrule your love of country! But we all know *that* would *never* happen, right?

RB from Gwinnett

March 19th, 2012
12:16 pm

Ah, yes… The typical liberal chicken hawk “if you haven’t served you don’t get to have an opinion” mantra. Yawn…

Would you mind if we apply that same logic to the 47% who don’t pay any federal income taxes too? Don’t pay, can’t vote? Work for you?

Ivan

March 19th, 2012
12:17 pm

“You can hardly make that a creditable argument against Romney when you have a Commander-in-Chief who campaigned on how important winning the war in Afghanistan was for our national security during his 08 campaign and then virtually avoiding it since he’s been in office”

Pretty much. What’s more is Jay’s blog today, “Time to set realistic course in Afghanistan”, points the finger to Mitt Romney and the Standard Weekly. Not the guy currently in charge, who has the authority to change the process, but instead has been continuing the policies the left opposed for so long up until 3 years ago.

Paul

March 19th, 2012
12:17 pm

USinUK

And Sarah Jessica Parker in a burka?

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
12:17 pm

Recon,
We got bin laden, we’ve decimated al qaeda and he has spoken about this frequently. What do you think the goal in Afghanistan should have been?

They BOTH suck

March 19th, 2012
12:17 pm

Sinkwich

Did we leave Iraq on a Bush or an Obama Administration negotiated time-line?

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
12:17 pm

F. Sinkiewicz — “Sure, Paul. A lot more dead terrorists. Thanks for asking.”

Sure do wish those terrists would carry their Axis of Evil ID Cards. It’d sure make it easier to figure out who was who, especially since they don’t have a terrist uniform or anything. :roll:

ByteMe

March 19th, 2012
12:18 pm

Did Obama triple the number of troops on the ground.in Afghanistan? If he had all of these wonderful options, why did he do that?

Yes he did, with the thought that by putting more pressure on AQ in the mountain areas by having more boots on the ground, we’d have a better chance of knocking them off. And it’s worked wonderfully. Most of the top AQ leadership have been blown to little pieces or captured. We won!

godless heathen©

March 19th, 2012
12:18 pm

getalife,

Did you know that it is a Federal crime to be annoying on the Internet?

http://news.cnet.com/2010-1028-6022491.html

They BOTH suck

March 19th, 2012
12:19 pm

Sinkwich

Wasn’t sure, but knew you could shed some light on the time line and how it came into being

Thanks

ByteMe

March 19th, 2012
12:19 pm

Would you mind if we apply that same logic to the 47% who don’t pay any federal income taxes too?

let’s have an eye roll here :roll:

They pay other taxes. Perhaps because you don’t pay a particular tax on energy, you don’t get to have a say in energy policy? That the path you want to go down?

Paul

March 19th, 2012
12:19 pm

F Sinkwich

[[“If this is our defeat, could you tell us what victory would have looked like?”

Sure, Paul.

A lot more dead terrorists.

Thanks for asking.]]

Con National Security Strategy: invade a country, stay there for a couple decades, spend hundreds of billions, kill thousands of American soldiers

so we have a convenient location to kill more bad guys.

Brilliant.

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
12:19 pm

RB — “Ah, yes… The typical liberal chicken hawk “if you haven’t served you don’t get to have an opinion” mantra. Yawn…”

Actually, the mantra is ‘if you haven’t served, then your uninformed opinion on military matters is irrelevant.’

Recon 0311 2533

March 19th, 2012
12:20 pm

Joe, frankly, there just isn’t anything I can say that is positive about this failed presidency.

godless heathen©

March 19th, 2012
12:21 pm

So the Bush administration should never have risked all those Americans by putting troops in Afghan when they could have just droned the terrorists, but when Obama tripled the number of troops in Afghanistan it was a good thing. Glad we got that cleared up.

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
12:21 pm

Recon — “Joe, frankly, there just isn’t anything I can say that is positive about this failed presidency.”

There is, but clearly you’re not equal to the task, Marine.

getalife

March 19th, 2012
12:22 pm

No heathen, I did not know.

A troll law will get all these cons here in trouble.

USinUK - missing the dogwoods ... not the pollen count ...

March 19th, 2012
12:22 pm

“And Sarah Jessica Parker in a burka?”

well, she deserves that just for inflicting Sex and the City 2 upon us …

Road Scholar

March 19th, 2012
12:23 pm

F Sinkwich: Delta is ready when you are! Show us how it should be done. Take Mitt, Boehmer, McConnell, Rush, Hannity, etc. with you so you won’t feel lonely !

They BOTH suck

March 19th, 2012
12:23 pm

godless

Guess you will be getting charged very soon……

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
12:24 pm

USinUK — “well, she deserves that just for inflicting Sex and the City 2 upon us …”

That’s that movie about three hookers and their mom, right? :D

(w/ apologies to Seth McFarlane)

Paul

March 19th, 2012
12:24 pm

godless heathen

If you don’t remember, you can go back and read. The Afg troop increase was to stabilize the situation to provide for an orderly American exit.

USinUK - missing the dogwoods ... not the pollen count ...

March 19th, 2012
12:25 pm

JHM – 12:17 – “Sure do wish those terrists would carry their Axis of Evil ID Cards. It’d sure make it easier to figure out who was who, especially since they don’t have a terrist uniform or anything. ”

or at the very least, take a page from the british army and wear a BRIGHT RED uniform with a BIG WHITE X across their chest …

(it’s the least they can do …)

Doggone/GA

March 19th, 2012
12:25 pm

“but when Obama tripled the number of troops in Afghanistan it was a good thing. Glad we got that cleared up.”

Nope, not cleared up. I, for one, was against that increase and still am. We should have wound that war down and gotten out a LONG, LONG time ago.

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
12:26 pm

godless: Who upped the troop numbers in Afghanistan? Did Obama triple the number of troops on the ground.in Afghanistan? If he had all of these wonderful options, why did he do that?

Had we used technology and surgical strikes, there would have been no need for Obama to add troops on the ground. We probably would have wrapped up our strikes on Afghanistan even before Iraq came into play. I didn’t agree with putting troops on the ground when we first did, and I did not agree with Obama adding more. I know why Obama did it, and I’m hoping his gamble pays off.

Regarding options, Obama did not have the option of doing as I had proposed with the surgical strikes. By the time Obama put his hand on the Bible on 1/20/2009, we had already established a troop presence on the ground for numerous YEARS. He didn’t have the option of not putting boots on the ground. Obama could have gradually transitioned to a policy like that, but he chose to go the way of the “surge”.

RB from Gwinnett

March 19th, 2012
12:30 pm

“That the path you want to go down?”

I’m not the one spewing the chicken hawk garbage. Talk to your fellow liberal brethren.

Joe, Seriously???? Can we apply that same logic to everything you post on here about?

stands for decibels

March 19th, 2012
12:30 pm

Jay, could we please add “surge” to the list of banned words?

getalife

March 19th, 2012
12:30 pm

We bombed the crap out of them, had obl trapped but w cut and ran to the Iraq occupation.

Huge mistake.

That is why we are still there.

We need a law to ban occupations and nation building other countries since we are so broke.

Jefferson

March 19th, 2012
12:32 pm

The ties are beginning to add up.

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
12:32 pm

RB — “Joe, Seriously???? Can we apply that same logic to everything you post on here about?”

Sure you can. I’ve served; in fact, I’m a disabled veteran. How about *you,* hotshot?

Recon 0311 2533

March 19th, 2012
12:33 pm

This talk about we got OBL or that we’ve desecrated al Qaeda with the meaning that we should hand the credit over to the Obama administration is bogus praise. First of all the intelligence that brought us to the final kill planning phase was a result of hard work done prior to Obama even setting foot in the Oval Office. Obama would have risked his presidency by failing to green light the mission The word would have leaked out that he backed away and it would have destroyed him politically. Secondly our war is with radical Islam, AQ was/is only one element and they’re still around BTW. We’ve not as yet won this war.

Raheem

March 19th, 2012
12:33 pm

“Mitt Romney is also among those unwilling to accept that reality.”

And that one issue could cost him the election. Americans are sick of wars, especially the useless variety like Afghanistan where we are stupidly repeating our costly VietNam mistake.

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
12:35 pm

Recon — “Obama would have risked his presidency by failing to green light the mission The word would have leaked out that he backed away and it would have destroyed him politically.”

When world leaked out that Bush let OBL get away at Tora Bora, did *that* destroy him politically?

“Secondly our war is with radical Islam”

No, it’s not, and even President Bush made that point. Our war’s not with Islam at all; it’s with terror groups who just happen to be Islamic. Their religion is beside the point; their tactics and behavior are the issue.

Jack

March 19th, 2012
12:35 pm

Sam Nunn got it right. You cannot win a foot war with Muslim countries. You cannot change the way they think. Let them fight among themselves and if one of them points a nuclear weapon our way, wipe ‘em out.

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
12:36 pm

Brocephus, if you haven’t seen the Frontline on the Afghan invasion you should check it out. It’s both interesting and impressive. The “war” part was basically won by CIA and special ops. The regular forces were used mainly for “stabilization” and eventually for counterinsurgency.

Recon 0311 2533

March 19th, 2012
12:37 pm

“There is, but clearly you’re not equal to the task, Marine.”

Like most of my Marine Corps brothers we’ve just never felt the need for left wing Kool-Aid, but you enjoy.

godless heathen©

March 19th, 2012
12:40 pm

So only those that were in the military can comment on policy involving the military? Making it through boot camp and subsequently doing what you were told for a couple of more years makes one an expert on foreign affairs. And if you caught a bullet or a piece of shrapnel then you are a highly qualified expert.

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
12:40 pm

Recon — “Like most of my Marine Corps brothers we’ve just never felt the need for left wing Kool-Aid, but you enjoy.”

Weak, weak, weak. One need not drink Kool-Aid in order to state one’s objections and complaints in a calm and mature fashion. It’s the difference between standing up and calmly making one’s opinion heard and in pitching a fit.

Once again, you’re just not equal to the task, Marine. Shame, that.

They BOTH suck

March 19th, 2012
12:40 pm

“First of all the intelligence that brought us to the final kill planning phase was a result of hard work done prior to Obama even setting foot in the Oval Office”

While one must acknowledge the amount of intel that was collected before Obama took office, I’m sure an unbiased link that states “all the intel” could be provided within short order, correct?

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
12:42 pm

So recon, is our war with radical islam even if they don’t attack us? Are we fighting an ideology or are we fighting terrorism? And if we’re fighting radical islam, why is Saudi Arabia still an ally? The are the main supporters of the spread of wahibism.

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
12:43 pm

G. Heathen — “So only those that were in the military can comment on policy involving the military?”

Didn’t say that. I said that it makes your opinion *uninformed* if you didn’t serve. And that’s true for posters on both sides of the aisle; a pair of our lefty posters got into it a couple of weeks ago over the non-serving one making a comment about the military that rubbed the serving one the wrong way.

“Making it through boot camp and subsequently doing what you were told for a couple of more years makes one an expert on foreign affairs. And if you caught a bullet or a piece of shrapnel then you are a highly qualified expert.”

Fail. Didn’t say it, didn’t think it. Reread what I posted, and then feel free to ask questions if it’s not clear to you.

They BOTH suck

March 19th, 2012
12:43 pm

godless @ 12:40

Are you directing that to several of the ex military right leaning posters we have on this blog? If not, you might want to include everyone if that was not your intention

Recon 0311 2533

March 19th, 2012
12:43 pm

When world leaked out that Bush let OBL get away at Tora Bora, did *that* destroy him politically?

leftist bunk

“No, it’s not, and even President Bush made that point. Our war’s not with Islam at all; it’s with terror groups who just happen to be Islamic. Their religion is beside the point; their tactics and behavior are the issue.”

More leftist bunk. Bush made reference to radical Islam often because it’s a reality that your ideology refuses to except not because it’s not a clear and continuing threat to our national security.

They Send Soldiers To Hell And EXPECT Them To Act Like Angels...We Ask So Much Of So Few

March 19th, 2012
12:44 pm

@Recon 0311 2533

March 19th, 2012
11:43 am
Obama has lacked leadership in the war he once called the right war and the one we must win. Romney was correct in pointing it out. Having said that I believe it’s long past the time for us to depart but we should remind Karzai why we’ve been there and the 3000 we lost as a result of 9-11 a cowardly attack that was planned, ordered and controlled from within his own country. We will not tolerate a reconstitution of jihadist activities in Afghanistan and should that re-occur after our departure we will unleash whatever weaponry we possess necessary to destroy it.
********************************************************************************************************

THE TRUE REASON FOR GOING TO WAR IN AFGHANISTAN: Troops and Civilians are Dying for Oil

Representatives of the Taliban were invited as guests to the Texas headquarters of Unocal in 1997 to negotiate their support for the pipeline.

Future President George W. Bush was Governor of Texas at the time. The Taliban appeared to agree to a $2 billion pipeline deal, but will do the deal only if the US officially recognizes the Taliban regime.

A report in the British Telegraph on 17th December 1997 read as follows: “Oil barons court Taliban in Texas,” the Taliban was about to sign a “£2 billion contract with an American oil company to build a pipeline across the war-torn country. …

The Islamic warriors appear to have been persuaded to close the deal, not through delicate negotiation but by old-fashioned Texan hospitality. … Dressed in traditional salwar khameez, Afghan waistcoats and loose, black turbans, the high-ranking delegation was given VIP treatment during the four-day stay.” At the same time, U.S. government documents reveal that the Taliban were harbouring Osama bin Laden as their “guest” since June 1996.

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
12:45 pm

DF

I’ll have to look into that.

————————–

This talk about we got OBL or that we’ve desecrated al Qaeda with the meaning that we should hand the credit over to the Obama administration is bogus praise. First of all the intelligence that brought us to the final kill planning phase was a result of hard work done prior to Obama even setting foot in the Oval Office.

I find it hilarious that Obama does not deserve praise because things were set into motion prior to him taking office, yet when the outcome of those prior actions result in something negative happening, it’s all because of Obama. If he doesn’t get credit for things set into motion prior to his adminstration, then he shouldn’t get the blame for the same things. However, I doubt very seriously that those who are intent on blaming him for all things wrong will ever be that consistent in their logic.

godless heathen©

March 19th, 2012
12:47 pm

Joe: When you said, “Sure you can. I’ve served; in fact, I’m a disabled veteran. How about *you,* hotshot?” ” I thought you were trying to bolster your credibility on the subject. Why would I have ever thought that?

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
12:48 pm

They BOTH suck

March 19th, 2012
12:40 pm

“First of all the intelligence that brought us to the final kill planning phase was a result of hard work done prior to Obama even setting foot in the Oval Office”

Then why didn’t Bush get bin laden??????????

They BOTH suck

March 19th, 2012
12:49 pm

Don’t forget

Slow down and read all the post. That was me posting someone else’s post and responding to it

Keep Up--Te gusta losing woofinpoofs?

March 19th, 2012
12:50 pm

Interesting how the conned say that Obama does not get credit for purported intelligence prior to his administration that told our military there was a 50/50 chance or so where Osama was 3 years into Obama’s term but in the very next line the conned say that Obama would have gotten blame has he not decided to take that risk.

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
12:52 pm

Recon — “leftist bunk”

Sorry, nothing doing. The Green Berets who were ready to pull the trigger have spoken. They were pulled back at the last moment, and apparently by higher headquarters. If it was anyone with a bird or some stars on their collar, then I think we should know who that was.

OTOH, if it was someone in a business suit, then I think we can reasonably assume they got their directions from the Oval Office, don’t you?

If it wasn’t the President who issued that order, I’d sure like to know who did.

“More leftist bunk. Bush made reference to radical Islam often”

President Bush made it quite clear in the days and weeks after 9/11 that we were NOT at war with Islam, and he made numerous public statements to that effect. Also don’t forget the Ramadan Iftars that he hosted in the White House during his administration.

If we were at war with Islamists, then it sure is funny how he managed to observe one of their highest holidays in the White House, isn’t it?

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
12:52 pm

Keep Up

Interesting indeed, but some see it as logical…

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
12:54 pm

G. Heathen — “Joe: When you said, “Sure you can. I’ve served; in fact, I’m a disabled veteran. How about *you,* hotshot?” ” I thought you were trying to bolster your credibility on the subject. Why would I have ever thought that?”

Because you misread me, that’s why.

I was talking to RB. He’s all indignant because he’s being called “uninformed.” He asked if he could apply my standard to things that I post, and I told him to go ahead. Since I’m a disabled veteran, I thought he should know that so he could go ahead and apply my standard to me.

I don’t have a problem with people disagreeing with me, so long as they can be polite. I’ll even return the favor. But those folks who can’t disagree without being disagreeable? I dish it right back at them.

Recon 0311 2533

March 19th, 2012
12:55 pm

Well I’ve upset the many Obama worshipers on here but now have more important things to do. Y’all enjoy your love fest for the “one” and Jay’s lame little dig on Romney. Later

Fred ™

March 19th, 2012
12:55 pm

Keep Up--Te gusta losing woofinpoofs?

March 19th, 2012
12:55 pm

Bro — I understand, but by that same “logic”, the same conned claimed Bush kept us “safe” despite his massive failure.

Peadawg

March 19th, 2012
12:56 pm

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
12:56 pm

Recon — “Well I’ve upset the many Obama worshipers on here but now have more important things to do. Y’all enjoy your love fest for the “one” and Jay’s lame little dig on Romney. Later”

Enjoy your strategic advance to the rear, Marine. :D

Fred ™

March 19th, 2012
12:58 pm

Dang Pea, thanks for the reminder. I forgot to buy my ticket for Fridays drawing but I still have time for Tuesdays. If I win that 270 million bucks I’ll buy you lunch for reminding me.

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
12:59 pm

Well I’ve upset the many Obama worshipers on here

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Obviously not lacking in self-importance and/or effect on others.

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
1:00 pm

Keep Up

That’s why I just laugh now. While it may be fatally flawed logic, it is still logic.
:)

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
1:02 pm

Fred — “If I win that 270 million bucks I’ll buy you lunch for reminding me.”

Speaking of lunch, didn’t you visit Peter Cheng’s a week or so ago? Did you notice the health inspection rating?

Doggone/GA

March 19th, 2012
1:03 pm

“I doubt very seriously that those who are intent on blaming him for all things wrong will ever be that consistent in their logic”

logic?

[...] Miles AwayBloombergRobert Bales, Afghanistan Killings Suspect, To Meet With LawyerHuffington PostAtlanta Journal Constitution (blog) -USA TODAYall 4,477 news [...]

Libertarian

March 19th, 2012
1:04 pm

I’d like to point out that your man Obama hasn’t indicated that he would like an early withdrawal either. He ran on the platform that Afghanistan is where we should be (not Iraq).

I think if you’re being fair, you would acknowledge that average Americans on both sides of political spectrum would say bring the troops home. Does anyone even know what our “goal” is there? Do we even have a clear goal? Considering Karzai wants us gone, I say we leave and let the Afghan people deal with the taliban on their own. We need to stop trying to be the world’s police. And, since they hate us so much, lets stop sending all these other countries aid money.

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
1:07 pm

Doggone

I didn’t say it was rational and coherent logic. ;)

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
1:07 pm

Sorry Both, I realized it wasn’t your post but didn’t realized I had gotten your name in the cut and paste.

Thulsa Doom

March 19th, 2012
1:08 pm

“When world leaked out that Bush let OBL get away at Tora Bora, did *that* destroy him politically?”

So W “let” OBL get away? Why would he “let” OBL get away? What purpose would it serve to “let” OBL get away. Tora Bora is a very mountainous, rugged, area that we don’t know very well. The insinuation that W “let” OBL get aways is just plain silly. Any armchair general on this blog who thinks that W just “let” OBL get away needs to have their head examined. If it were that damn easy to get OBL then we would have gotten him back when Clinton was potus. Good grief these kool-aid drinkers believe just about anything the kook left websites tell them.

Normal, Plain and Simple

March 19th, 2012
1:09 pm

Too bad Dell doesn’t respect President Obama. What will he do after the president is re-elected? Re-enlist?

JamVet

March 19th, 2012
1:10 pm

The neocons and Talibaptists fully supported these chosen wars. The waved their pom poms for every single thing about the George Bush Crusade and the utterly botched invasion and occupations. They literally screamed for them. With Muslim like fervor.

They cheered on mass genocide.

They giggled and tittered over the torture and secret prisons and Gitmo.

They couldn’t reach into their puny wallets quick enough to help make zillionaires out of the men who owned Haliburton and BlackWater.

Until the very moment the spectacular cowards and failures in the previous administration left office.

Then everything mysteriously changed for them.

Support the troops.

Mick

March 19th, 2012
1:11 pm

Course correction needed; after a decade of war are we any safer or better off? There are certain illusions of control but I say enough is enough. Get out now and focus on rebuilding an America for the future. The way things are going, our kids are staring at a very tough winding road ahead, we need to get our priorities in order, then get to work on it…

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
1:11 pm

Good grief these kool-aid drinkers believe just about anything the kook left websites tell them.

Is that any different from the other kool-aid drinkers believing things that kook right websites/pundits/entertainers tell them?

Normal, Plain and Simple

March 19th, 2012
1:11 pm

Thulsa,
There was also that Bush -Bin Laden business ventures too….could have had something to do with “missing” OBL at Tora Bora.

JKL2

March 19th, 2012
1:12 pm

-Before I take a stand at a particular course of action, I want to get the input from the people who are there,” Romney said

Not everyone is an instant expert on ewverything like our president. Some people like to research something they don’t have experience in before making decisions about it.

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
1:20 pm

Not everyone is an instant expert on ewverything like our president.

True, however many of us realize that EVERY president is surrounded by hordes of advisors with whom those on the battlefield are in direct contact with or the advisors may be on the battlefield themselves.

Keep Up--Te gusta losing woofinpoofs?

March 19th, 2012
1:22 pm

Not everyone is an instant expert on ewverything…. Some people like to research something they don’t have experience in before making decisions about it

And yet those same people apparently claim to know enough that they can say that someone who is getting information from military and other sources is not providing “leadership”. :roll: I am sure Mitt if elected would apologize if he decided that Obama was leading with the information available. :roll:

JKL2

March 19th, 2012
1:22 pm

Thulsa Doom

March 19th, 2012
1:24 pm

Normal, Plain, and Simple,

Got anything to back up concerning your out of thin air conspiracy theory that OBL was let off the hook because W had a relationship with the Bin Laden family which is a very large family and very influential or at least was in influential in Saudi Arabia. Also OBL if I remember correctly was disowned by the Bin Laden family.

Your theory isn’t quite as loony as the kook left theory that W was behind the twin towers coming down. Close but not quite as loony.

JamVet

March 19th, 2012
1:25 pm

Flip is desperate.

He knows he is gonna get trounced in November. Hell he can’t even put away the three lightweight stooges that may take him to the wire in Tampa. So now he is reduced to nothing but pathetic pandering to the pathetic GOP “base” of the suddenly fiscal and war weary neocons.

Prepare yourselves for a second straight McCaining…

Fred ™

March 19th, 2012
1:27 pm

JHM: Nope, haven’t been back (peter Cahngs). Wife didn’t feel like driving there that night (it WAS a Friday night I think) and we haven’t made it since.

Did you by chance stop by?

Thulsa Doom

March 19th, 2012
1:28 pm

Brocephus,

If you can come up with a kook right theory on the same scale as the kook left theory that W exploded the twin towers from the inside then please let me know. The birther issue doesn’t even come close. And the current suggestion by Normal that maybe W let OBL go because of previous business relationships with the Bin Laden family is ludicrous as well- particularly in light of the fact that the family disowned him long ago.

JKL2

March 19th, 2012
1:29 pm

Brosephus- True, however many of us realize that EVERY president is surrounded by hordes of advisors with whom those on the battlefield are in direct contact with or the advisors may be on the battlefield themselves

Gen McCryatal said he talked to Bush weekly if not more. He talked to obama once before he was fired after 6 months. obama is well known for not listening to anyone.

finn mccool

March 19th, 2012
1:29 pm

Since we are on our way to being a hispanic country, maybe we should ask the pope what he would do…..or father Guido Sarduchii who has a direct line to the pope.

JKL2

March 19th, 2012
1:33 pm

keep- And yet those same people apparently claim to know enough that they can say that someone who is getting information from military and other sources is not providing “leadership

obama wouldn’t know leadership if it sat on his face and wiggled. He’s always been a “behind the scenes” guy for a reason.

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
1:34 pm

The birther issue doesn’t even come close.

Check yourself because your bias is showing. The birther issue is just the same, if not worse if you look at the fact that the birther issue led to some trying to pass legislation regarding that issue. I don’t recall any explosion legislation being crafted. Both sides have their own nutcases. Trying to say one is worse than the other is saying that getting bit by a grizzly bear is different than getting bit by a black bear. Either way it goes, you’ve gotten bitten by a friggin’ bear.

The problem I have with the right is the absurd logic that Obama doesn’t get credit for things that happened during his administration because they started before him, but he gets blamed for bad things that happened that were started before him. If some of your fellow conservatives displayed a semblance of coherent logic, you’d win the battle of kooks. When your whole ideological movement displays that same tendency to operate in a logic-free zone, you lose that battle.

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
1:34 pm

Doom — “Good grief these kool-aid drinkers believe just about anything the kook left websites tell them.”

Any time you’d like to try to refute what these news outlets and conservative comment sites had to say on the matter, you hop right to it, Doom.

Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A62618-2002Apr16)
Blackfive (http://www.blackfive.net/main/2009/11/afghanistan-tora-bora-bushs-fault-forever.html)
Newsmax (perversely, they criticize John Kerry for *supporting* Bush’s policy in Tora Bora)
60 Minutes (interviews with the Special Forces combatants)
NY Times

There are many, many more accounts on plenty of *news* sites.

Keep Up--Te gusta losing woofinpoofs?

March 19th, 2012
1:35 pm

obama wouldn’t know leadership if it sat on his face and wiggled. He’s always been a “behind the scenes” guy for a reason

Well if that is how you determine leadership, I am sure Santorum is just frothing with Republican leadership potential. :roll:

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
1:37 pm

Fred — “Did you by chance stop by?”

No, when you said you were going there to eat, I figured I’d get lazy and let you do the leg work. :)

Would you like for me to stop in? Their business must be doing at least okay; I thought I saw a help wanted sign there a week or so ago.

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
1:37 pm

Gen McCryatal said he talked to Bush weekly if not more.

So, just talking to someone means that much. What did they talk about? If they were discussing irrelevant things, does that still matter. All presidents get their daily briefings on issues that are going on. The president has so many different advisors in so many different areas that you could take anybody and make them look like the greatest president in the world as long as they had competent advisors and analysts on their staffs. A president does not have to be in continuous direct communication with someone to know what’s going on and what their opinion is when it comes to making decisions. Those days are long gone thanks to technology.

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
1:38 pm

Brocephus, here’s the link. I believe it’s called “the dark side”. It gets more interesting about half way through the second part but it’s all pretty good.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/darkside/view/

Jefferson

March 19th, 2012
1:39 pm

Boy the last president left a lot of loose ends.

Thulsa Doom

March 19th, 2012
1:40 pm

Jefferson with the blame W card. Couldn’t see that one coming could we.

Jefferson

March 19th, 2012
1:42 pm

So everything was nice and tidy ?

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
1:43 pm

Don’t Forget

Appreciate it….

Jefferson

March 19th, 2012
1:44 pm

Reckon’ he was mad at the way Pres Clinton left things, figured to even the score ?

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
1:47 pm

Jefferson

March 19th, 2012
1:44 pm

Reckon’ he was mad at the way Pres Clinton left things, figured to even the score ?

Yup, payback for all those missing W’s from keyboards in the hitehouse. lol

Night Train

March 19th, 2012
1:47 pm

Hey Jay (and other bleeding heart cry babies on this blog), you ever heard the saying “don’t cry over spilled milk”?

You sure are whining over the situation in Afgan, why don’t you put the crying towel away and instead share with us your great solution?

No politician seems to have an acceptable solution according to you, so what is your solution? Cut and run?

Thulsa Doom

March 19th, 2012
1:49 pm

Joe Mama,

WashPo is a liberal paper so its not as if they give W a fair shake. Black five? Seriously dude? That dinky little website with one guy who thinks W screwed up and a handful of comments some of whom disagree with him? Sheesh.

If you weren’t there and these folks weren’t there then you just don’t know enough about the situation to accurately maintain that W just let him go. You don’t know if W and the generals there had intelligence indicating OBL had already escaped into Paki, you don’t know if maybe they were risking putting troops into an ambush, you don’t know the situation. If W didn’t send in that squad of green berets then it was probably because they felt OBL was already gone. Nice job there of Monday morning armchair general strategy though.

Thulsa Doom

March 19th, 2012
1:52 pm

60 minutes? Hmmm. Isn’t that the same show that let Dan Rather post the fraudulent W didn’t serve in the Guard doctored papers right before the election? Why yes. I believe it is!

Paul

March 19th, 2012
1:53 pm

JKL2

“-Before I take a stand at a particular course of action, I want to get the input from the people who are there,” Romney said

Not everyone is an instant expert on ewverything like our president. Some people like to research something they don’t have experience in before making decisions about it.”

So Romney’s been running for president for how long and he hasn’t yet formulated an idea of what he’d do with the major foreign policy of his new administration, a country where Americans are dying nearly every day?

That’s really pathetic. He’s one of those guys he detested as a CEO – the people who bring nothing but whining and complaining, but no recommendations or solutions.

Oh, and as far as those weekly phone chats with the guy in the field – it depends on how you look at it. Many would call it micromanaging, jumping over the chain of command and creating more work for the general in the field, who has to spend time preparing for the chats, then spend hours briefing his superiors over what the CIC asked about.

But your point of view sure sounds good as a Rushbite.

godless heathen©

March 19th, 2012
1:54 pm

“If you weren’t there and these folks weren’t there then you just don’t know enough about the situation to accurately maintain that W just let him go.”

Even the WashPo article doesn’t say that Bush just let him go. “After-action reviews, conducted privately inside and outside the military chain of command, describe the episode as a significant defeat for the United States. A common view among those interviewed outside the U.S. Central Command is that Army Gen. Tommy R. Franks, the war’s operational commander, misjudged the interests of putative Afghan allies and let pass the best chance to capture or kill al Qaeda’s leader. Without professing second thoughts about Tora Bora, Franks has changed his approach fundamentally in subsequent battles, using Americans on the ground as first-line combat units.”

Sounds like misjudgment by the field guys. I’m sure they would do it differently if they had it to do over. The whackjob conspiracy guys characterize this as “Bush let him go.”

Paul

March 19th, 2012
1:55 pm

Hey Night Train

Been a long time. Some things have changed you should know about.

No one talks about ’spilled milk” any more.

We wait for one particular blogger to pop in with his usual ‘ilk’ tirade then it branches off from there.

“Spilled ilk” is always popular.

Jm

March 19th, 2012
2:00 pm

This is a serious issue

This is not a serious discussion

Keep Up--Te gusta losing woofinpoofs?

March 19th, 2012
2:00 pm

Someone spilled some ilk? Quick, get some kid janitors over to wipe that up.

Paul

March 19th, 2012
2:02 pm

Jm

“This is not a serious discussion”

Look at how it started.

Romney: “I’ve been running for months but I haven’t a clue what to do about it. It’s better for me politically if I just criticize my opponent.”

Thulsa Doom

March 19th, 2012
2:02 pm

Godless heathen,

Exactly. A battlefield misjudgment and all of a sudden it morphs into W “let” OBL go.

But then this is the modus operandi of the kook left. Obama ends up losing the Afghan war so what do they do? Blame W of course.

Doesn’t really matter though. I think we’re better off leaving and letting those savages go back to having their way with the goats, beating they women, and generally just being backwards ass Muslim religious fanatics.

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
2:07 pm

Exactly. A battlefield misjudgment and all of a sudden it morphs into W “let” OBL go.

But then this is the modus operandi of the kook left. Obama ends up losing the Afghan war so what do they do? Blame W of course.

So, what’s your opinion on Congress not being able to come to an agreement on budget appropriation bills in a timely manner year after year? Do you continue to Blame O for not passing a budget as other kook righties do?

Mick

March 19th, 2012
2:08 pm

doom

**60 minutes? Hmmm. Isn’t that the same show that let Dan Rather post the fraudulent W didn’t serve in the Guard doctored papers right before the election?**

Yeah right, 60 minutes cannot be trusted? As for the guard story, there has not been one soldier who did duty at the alabama station where bush “supposedly” showed up, who can remember seeing him dO any type of duty at that station – not one. A reward of $10K was offered and no one saw bush there. Now, not drilling, especially during wartime would have menat a court martial but we all know the treatment given to the privileged powerful families, chalk another one up for daddy bush…

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
2:08 pm

Doom

You can spare the answer too. Both sides have their nutcases, as I stated earlier. Simply pointing out one siden while ignoring the other gives the impression that you implicitly agree with the kooks on your side.

ragnar danneskjold

March 19th, 2012
2:09 pm

Agree in part. One unarguable truth in the essay: “History tells us that Afghanistan has never been open to outside influence” Whether that truth was more adversely affected by the Bush era low-profile engagement, or the high-profile “this was the war we should have been fighting” mentality is arguable, and I am certain my view conflicts with that of our host.

To the point of the essay, “whence now?” I previously argued my position, favoring an immediate withdrawal coupled with a threat to use predator drones to execute any Taliban who sticks his head out of the ground. Whether anyone believes Obama’s bluffs makes my argument problematical, although a more credible president would make the strategy work.

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
2:13 pm

I previously argued my position, favoring an immediate withdrawal coupled with a threat to use predator drones to execute any Taliban who sticks his head out of the ground. Whether anyone believes Obama’s bluffs makes my argument problematical

I don’t think people would have a problem believing Obama’s bluff/threat if he followed your position at all. Remember, Obama is the same president that has ALREADY used drones against Americans. Gotta remember all your talking points when formulating an idea.

Keep Up--Te gusta losing woofinpoofs?

March 19th, 2012
2:16 pm

Obama ends up losing the Afghan war so what do they do? Blame W of course

Hmmm…. after 7 years of not winning the war and inheriting it in a “losing” status, interesting to see the “Blame Obama” card played in the same thread where supposed “intelligence” from the W years leads to the death of Osama and that is not credited to Obama. Wonder why the lack of consistency in logic. oh right… :roll:

Tundra Dude

March 19th, 2012
2:18 pm

Joe Hussein Mama

Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A62618-2002Apr16)

As usual, poop rolleth downhill. The CIA’s fav propaganda sheet, (WAPO) attempts to blame Gen.
Franks, when Bush himself ordered the abrupt halt to the OBL op at Tora Bora.

http://foreign.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Tora_Bora_Report.pdf
According to a later Senate Foreign Relations Committee report, Bush’s order to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to freshen up the plans for an Iraq invasion literally pulled Gen. Tommy Franks, head of the Central Command, away from planning the assault on Tora Bora.

The White House also rebuffed CIA appeals for the dispatch of 1,000 Marines to cut off bin Laden’s escape routes, the report said. Denied the extra troops to catch bin Laden, U.S. Special Forces couldn’t nab the terrorist leader before he made his getaway to Pakistan.

The hunt for bin Laden was soon put on the back burner. As the Washington Post reported on Friday, “A few months after Tora Bora, as part of the preparation for war in Iraq, the Bush administration pulled out many of the Special Operations and CIA forces that had been searching for bin Laden in Afghanistan, according to several U.S officials who served at the time.”

Jefferson

March 19th, 2012
2:22 pm

If President Bush supporters would accept the FACTS about the state of the US when he left office, you wouldn’t have to cry “Blame” so often.

Mick

March 19th, 2012
2:34 pm

jefferson

We are not supposed to remember anything concerning america pre – 2009…

Pass the Cheesy Grits Please

March 19th, 2012
2:34 pm

Yeah right, 60 minutes cannot be trusted? As for the guard story, there has not been one soldier who did duty at the alabama station where bush “supposedly” showed up, who can remember seeing him dO any type of duty at that station – not one. A reward of $10K was offered and no one saw bush there. Now, not drilling, especially during wartime would have menat a court martial but we all know the treatment given to the privileged powerful families, chalk another one up for daddy bush…

I live in Montgomery and he was supposed to be stationed here at Maxwell AFB. Its a joke around town that he never showed up. Everyone knows he didn’t.

He was supposed to be here working on “Red” Blounts senate campaign. I dont think anyone ever saw him.

The documents might have been forgeries but what they said wasn’t. Bush definitely went AWOL and only because he had a powerful farther was it concealed.

JamVet

March 19th, 2012
2:34 pm

Jefferson,

I’ve got it.

His new title shall be, President “He, who shall never be mentioned” Bush!

If Jews were referring to him he would be B*sh. (Based on the traditional practice in Jewish law of giving God’s Hebrew name a high degree of respect and reverence, such that it cannot even be written out.)

getalife

March 19th, 2012
2:36 pm

They will not admit w destroyed our country because they want to do it again.

Peadawg

March 19th, 2012
2:37 pm

“If President Bush supporters would accept the FACTS about the state of the US when he left office, you wouldn’t have to cry “Blame” so often.”

If Obama supporters would accept the FACTS about the state of the US 3+ years into his first term, you wouldn’t have to cry “Blame” so often.

getalife

March 19th, 2012
2:42 pm

Yeah, lets compare from the w collapse to today’s economy.

Do you really want to go there pea?

JamVet

March 19th, 2012
2:45 pm

The funny thing is that had McCain won that last election, the cons themselves would be apologizing for him by saying that George had left his a complete disaster.

And that no human being alive could undo the amount of wreckage left behind in three years…

godless heathen©

March 19th, 2012
2:46 pm

Tundra Dude: “when Bush himself ordered the abrupt halt to the OBL op at Tora Bora. ” Where did you get this intel, Encylopedia Moronica? Because that’s not what the Senate report says.

Peadawg

March 19th, 2012
2:46 pm

“Yeah, lets compare from the w collapse to today’s economy.

Do you really want to go there pea?”

No, I’m just tired of people blaming Bush, blaming the left, blaming the right, blaming someones grandma from 1890, etc. etc. Playing the blame game over and over accomplishes nothing.

getalife

March 19th, 2012
2:49 pm

No pea.

There is blame and his name is w.

The cons spin it and deflect it.

That is what I am sick of.

No honesty just bs.

Mighty Righty

March 19th, 2012
2:51 pm

The BS dreamed up by the uninformed left is astounding. Her is an indisputable fact. Bush was a pilot. A fighter pilot. Now since as you on the left insist he never attended a reserve session, just how in the hell did he learn to fly? You lefties conveniently ignore that there are records showing him in attendance which was proven by CBS when they fired Dan Rather for lying about this very subject.. Contrast this evidence with the evidence that Obama was a foreign student while at Harvard which you don’t even acknowledge.. No college transcrpits or admission papers which would disprove any questions about his status as a student and those documents should exist.. He traveled apparently without a U.S. Passport to countries that at the time would not allow U.S. citizens to enter. Why? Could be easily disproved.

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
2:51 pm

Doom — “WashPo is a liberal paper so its not as if they give W a fair shake.”

Translation – Wah wah wah.

“Black five? Seriously dude? That dinky little website with one guy who thinks W screwed up and a handful of comments some of whom disagree with him? Sheesh.”

Conservative comment site. Therefore your bleating about lefty blogs was wrong. But that’s par for the course for you.

“If you weren’t there and these folks weren’t there then you just don’t know enough about the situation to accurately maintain that W just let him go. You don’t know if W and the generals there had intelligence indicating OBL had already escaped into Paki, you don’t know if maybe they were risking putting troops into an ambush, you don’t know the situation. If W didn’t send in that squad of green berets then it was probably because they felt OBL was already gone.”

The Spec Ops guys disagree with you, and they were there. Fail.

“Nice job there of Monday morning armchair general strategy though.”

I’ll be sure to tell the Green Berets how you feel about them if I ever meet them, Doom. (laughing) :D

“60 minutes? Hmmm. Isn’t that the same show that let Dan Rather post the fraudulent W didn’t serve in the Guard doctored papers right before the election? Why yes. I believe it is!”

What a patently foolish response. If a mistake — that was retracted and corrected — makes 60 Minutes unbelievable from then on, then FNC’s been unbelievable since about five minutes after it went on the air.

You really do make this too easy, Doom. (laughing) :D

Peadawg

March 19th, 2012
2:52 pm

“There is blame and his name is w.” – Only to liberals who can’t live in the present and have nothing better to do than blame other’s for their problems.

curious

March 19th, 2012
2:52 pm

Having just returned from a 22 month deployment to Afghanistan and “working” with the Afghan National Security Force (Army and National Police) almost daily, I can guarantee this mission (as defined now) will not be a success.

Afghanistan isn’t a country; it’s a collection of various tribes and cultures that don’t like each other or us.

Let’s get rid of this “tar baby” and get out NOW!

getalife

March 19th, 2012
2:54 pm

bush used socialism to bailout the banks.

No strings attached.

There is your socialism cons.

(ir)Rational

March 19th, 2012
2:55 pm

“No honesty just bs.” – That is a fairly accurate description of some posters here. A lot of them can’t even see that they fall in to that category.

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
2:55 pm

M. Righty — “Now since as you on the left insist he never attended a reserve session, just how in the hell did he learn to fly?”

No one said he never attended a reserve session. We’re saying he never attended one IN ALABAMA, and there are no records to prove he ever did.

His training records from his time in the Texas ANG are well-documented. His training records from his time in the Alabama ANG have never turned up.

getalife

March 19th, 2012
2:55 pm

“Only to liberals who can’t live in the present and have nothing better to do than blame other’s for their problems.”

There you go again.

Pathetic.

Mick

March 19th, 2012
2:58 pm

mighty

No one is disputing bush being a pilot but he was grounded and then he asked to do duty in alabama so he could work on a senate campaign. He never showed up for his drills and even if you are a reservist, that’s considered AWOL. Pretty sorry record from a man who sent reservists to iraq and afghanistan…

getalife

March 19th, 2012
2:58 pm

ir,

I tell it like it is.

Most can’t take it.

You seem to fit in that category.

(ir)Rational

March 19th, 2012
2:59 pm

JHM – While I was admittedly young during much of his presidency (I didn’t graduate until around the end of his first term), I didn’t know Bush was ever supposed to have been in the Alabama ANG? Why would he have been in the Alabama ANG?

getalife

March 19th, 2012
3:01 pm

The cons will admit he spent too much.

That is it.

Too funny.

getalife

March 19th, 2012
3:02 pm

Our President calls it collective amnesia.

I call it bs.

Peadawg

March 19th, 2012
3:03 pm

“Pathetic.” – No, pathetic is playing the blame game instead of debating the facts and coming up with solutions.

JamVet

March 19th, 2012
3:03 pm

The Republicans would get some cred if they just manned up and stopped their Bush Apology Tour…

To wit, the man essentially disappeared for his entire last year of service while in Alabama. To the point that he forfeited his flight status.

Quit being such suck up apologists for him. Sheesh…

(ir)Rational

March 19th, 2012
3:06 pm

JamVet and others – Out of curiosity, how would he have been honorably discharged had he been AWOL for a year of service? Just out of curiosity. Oh, and JHM, I looked it up so now I understand why he was in Alabama.

getalife

March 19th, 2012
3:06 pm

pea,

You have to admit the problem and not do it again.

Doggone/GA

March 19th, 2012
3:08 pm

“Out of curiosity, how would he have been honorably discharged had he been AWOL for a year of service?”

One possible scenario: someone covered up for him

getalife

March 19th, 2012
3:08 pm

ir,

You should get informed and not ask silly questions.

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
3:09 pm

I didn’t know Bush was ever supposed to have been in the Alabama ANG? Why would he have been in the Alabama ANG?

During Viet Nam we had a draft. The national guard was one way of avoiding combat without becoming a fugitive and going to Canada.

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
3:09 pm

(ir)Rational — “JHM – While I was admittedly young during much of his presidency (I didn’t graduate until around the end of his first term), I didn’t know Bush was ever supposed to have been in the Alabama ANG? Why would he have been in the Alabama ANG?”

He apparently requested the transfer so he could work on the political campaign of a family friend. I’m pretty sure you can’t do that when you’re on active duty (in fact, you’re not even supposed to attend a political rally for a candidate in uniform if you’re active duty), but I don’t know the regs for Reserve and National Guard components.

Anyway, the transfer was approved, but there are no pay or training records that have turned up for Mr. Bush during that time. Apparently there *is* some sort of medical treatment record from the Alabama post where Bush was supposed to perform his training duties (dental records IIRC), but nothing indicating he actually performed duty or was paid during the period when he was supposed to be attached to the unit in AL.

Peadawg

March 19th, 2012
3:09 pm

“You have to admit the problem and not do it again.” – And that problem HAS been acknowledged. Many many times. It’s been 3+ years man, get the f over it. It’s time to start talking solutions for the present/future.

(ir)Rational

March 19th, 2012
3:10 pm

Doggone – Another is he wasn’t AWOL. Absent, possibly, but with leave? Like I said, I don’t know, and I’m fairly certain none of you do either (unless you have records showing you were in the AL ANG at the same time), but I’m just not sure how exactly that works, unless he had permission to be gone.

JamVet

March 19th, 2012
3:13 pm

(ir), I’ve never used that acronym in my life regarding GWB. He basically skipped out and got away with. Scott free.

People act like that is impossible.

He was the consummate Fortunate Son that John Fogerty wrote a song about.

And I never once blamed him for using daddy to hide out there instead of going to the jungle. Tons of guys in this country were trying every angle they could to do the same. They just didn’t have as much help.

But for the chickenhawks to portray this guy as some sort of military hero, is beyond absurd. Especially by the depraved swiftboaters and Saxby Chambless fans out there…

carlosgvv

March 19th, 2012
3:13 pm

Didn’t John McCain say we needed to stay in Afghanistan for 100 years? If we did, I doubt things would be much better than now. These are tribal people who are indoctronated with a hard-shell fundamentalist Islam way of thinking. It seems that everyone knows this, but we still stay. In the past, news media folks would say we can’t stay in a war that the American people don’t support. How depressing it is to know that’s no longer so.

St Simons- island off the coast of New Somalia

March 19th, 2012
3:14 pm

Now we know what area 51 was reeeeeally about –
-the con Amnesia time warp machine
-it works only on limited intelligence
-spell lasts for about 8 years,
-last used in 2009 with great success on the test group

getalife

March 19th, 2012
3:14 pm

No pea.

w was a disaster but you are not man enough to admit it.

Our President brought us back and you are not man enough to admit that fact son.

TaxPayer

March 19th, 2012
3:15 pm

Did someone say we need to come up with a solution for something. A problem perhaps. What’s the problem. Has someone been blamed. Tell me it ain’t so.

Mighty Righty

March 19th, 2012
3:16 pm

I know the left wants us to think that Obama doesn’t have the power to do anything, can’t lower gasoline prices, can’t control inflation, can’t stop spending money, can’t stop appointing communists and socialists to his administration but the constitution makes him the “commander in chief.” He can bring the troops home. Anytime he wants. It has nothing to do with the “military industrial complex.” It has nothing to do with George W Bush. It has nothing to do with Republicans. It is his decision. He must not want to end the war.

godless heathen©

March 19th, 2012
3:17 pm

Since there is so much “proof” that Bush wasn’t on duty at ANG, one wonders why Dan Rather had to rely on obviously fake documents to try and make the case?

getalife

March 19th, 2012
3:17 pm

Tax,

Our President fixed the problem.

Not sure what pea is talking about but I know he hates the blame game.

Peadawg

March 19th, 2012
3:17 pm

“w was a disaster but you are not man enough to admit it.

Our President brought us back and you are not man enough to admit that fact son.”

You’re on here everyday, getalife….you know better than to spout a flat out lie. Shame on you, son. Now you’re just trolling.

I’ve admitted both and moved on. Others (like you) just aren’t man enough to do that yet.

(ir)Rational

March 19th, 2012
3:18 pm

JHM – I’ll have to defer to you and others on that. The last direct family member I have that was in the military was my granddad (USMC, Korea – Cuban Missile Crisis), and he doesn’t like to talk about it, so I only know what I’ve been able to learn. However, I did know that about not campaigning or attending rallies while in uniform (one of the things that always bothered me about Charlie Wilson).

JamVet – I was responding to you and others, but thought you and a few of the other vets here could shed some light on that topic better than people like me could.

getalife

March 19th, 2012
3:19 pm

pea,

I agree.

We are back.

Our President should be honored for bringing us back.

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
3:21 pm

(ir)Rational — “Out of curiosity, how would he have been honorably discharged had he been AWOL for a year of service?”

Wouldn’t, so far as I know. Regs may differ from service to service and from component to component. Here’s how it worked in the Army when I was in.

If you’re late to formation or duty, you can be punished for FTR (Failure To Repair). FTR applies to guys missing for up to 24 hours. Once you go over 24 hours, you’re considered AWOL (Absent Without Leave). AWOL individuals can still be returned to their units when apprehended, but the two guys I knew who went AWOL spent some time in confinement before being allowed to return to duty.

At midnight on the 30th day of AWOL, a soldier becomes DFR (Dropped From Rolls) and is considered a deserter. Even if apprehended, he won’t be returned to his unit. His former unit can request a replacement for him.

One of the morons I knew who went AWOL actually showed up about a half hour before he would have gone DFR. He figured he’d get off lightly, but the CO sent his hind end down to the brig at Pearl Harbor (all the services made use of the Navy brig in Hawaii, just like all of them made use of the Army hospital on the island). I forget how long he was locked up, but it was at least a month.

One guy I knew actually went DFR instead of deploying to Korea for training. He later turned up at Fort Ben Harrison, IN, trying to get paid. Fort Ben is an administrative post, which means it’s got like *one* MP at each gate and no combat units stationed there, but when he went to Finance and tried to get paid, he popped up as a deserter on someone’s screen and they took his happy azz away. We never saw him again, but the First Sergeant told us how he got caught.

Anyway, to your point, you wouldn’t be honorably discharged if you were in an AWOL or DFR state. In fact, you *can’t be* discharged in such a state, as you have to physically sign out of your unit in order to be discharged. You actually *remain* in the service (technically) and can be arrested an imprisoned, even years and years after your enlistment would have been up.

It’s not worth it, IMO. Stick it out and get your discharge.

getalife

March 19th, 2012
3:21 pm

Hillary too.

Honor her for her service to our great country

She will be leaving soon..

Peadawg

March 19th, 2012
3:22 pm

Good, getalife. Good job, son.

Now move on. That’s the next step.

barking frog

March 19th, 2012
3:23 pm

Hopefully the CinC and
his troops know what
they’re doing.

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
3:23 pm

G. Heathen — “Since there is so much “proof” that Bush wasn’t on duty at ANG, one wonders why Dan Rather had to rely on obviously fake documents to try and make the case?”

There’s no proof Bush *wasn’t* there; there’s just very scant proof that he *was.* And there’s no proof at all that he ever did training or got paid in AL.

My understanding is that Rather was trying to pursue some kind of alleged cover-up with the fake documents, which would be another matter entirely.

(ir)Rational

March 19th, 2012
3:24 pm

JHM – So, from your explanation, Bush was never AWOL from his unit in Alabama. As he was Honorably Discharged after his stint there. That’s what I’m assuming anyway.

getalife

March 19th, 2012
3:24 pm

I have moved on pea.

We are moving forward into the 21st century.

Long live the US auto industry and God bless America.

Paul

March 19th, 2012
3:24 pm

Is the Bush military service issue the latest diversion from the Republican Circular Firing Squad show?

(ir)Rational

March 19th, 2012
3:26 pm

Paul – I really don’t know how we got on that topic, I was just trying to get some clarification from a few people on it, cause I have always heard about the controversy, but never knew what people were talking about.

getalife

March 19th, 2012
3:26 pm

Pretty much Paul.

Doggone/GA

March 19th, 2012
3:27 pm

“I’m fairly certain none of you do either ”

And I never said I did. I gave a POSSIBLE SCENARIO, and that’s all

Peadawg

March 19th, 2012
3:27 pm

getalife @ 2:49 – “There is blame and his name is w.”

getalife @ 3:24 – “I have moved on pea.”

That’s impressive if you’ve made progress in just 35 minutes.

Jefferson

March 19th, 2012
3:28 pm

I really don’t blame President Bush as much as the GOP policies he accepted as sound, but the truth is the truth. Ga is headed down the same path, look what the state owes and who’s doing the paying.

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
3:29 pm

(ir)Rational — “JHM – So, from your explanation, Bush was never AWOL from his unit in Alabama. As he was Honorably Discharged after his stint there. That’s what I’m assuming anyway.”

Again, I don’t really know how it works in the Guard. I was Army Reserve for a year after I left active duty (but I didn’t like it and I was working on grad school at the same time) and I *seem* to recall that you had to get a certain number of drill points each year in order to get retirement credit. I *think* you could miss one weekend a year and still make enough points, but I recall hearing guys talking about ‘makeup duty,’ so I guess the points were a concern for some people. I never missed a drill weekend in the year I was in the drilling Reserves.

I always figured you were supposed to show up on drill weekends and for the two-week Annual Training session every summer, and it never occurred to me to miss or blow off a drill weekend.

Peadawg

March 19th, 2012
3:29 pm

Just don’t relapse, k getalife?

getalife

March 19th, 2012
3:29 pm

We did dabble in the blame game but some can’t admit obvious disasters.

jconservative

March 19th, 2012
3:30 pm

“What, after all, is the alternative? Peace talks have scant prospect of success given that the Taliban are now betting—perhaps rightly—that they can simply wait us out.”

This is a supremely dumb statement.

Of course they can wait us out. They have been waiting for the last 10 years. And they can wait for the next 10, 20 or 50 years. They ain’t going nowhere. They live there. It’s their native land.

The Taliban are a very sizable portion of the population of Afghanistan. It is not someone you can drive out and send back to their country. Afghanistan is their country. No one knows who are Taliban and who are not Taliban. They all look alike and dress alike.

The only way to get the Taliban out of Afghanistan is to kill every citizen of Afghanistan,
And we are not going to do that.

getalife

March 19th, 2012
3:33 pm

pea,

I will stay the course with the buck stops with the President.

Imagine if it was not bush but our President that collapsed the global economy.

The cons would be screaming for impeachment.

So lets get real pea and stop the bs.

stands for decibels

March 19th, 2012
3:34 pm

The arguments made by Boot for sustaining our involvement in Afghanistan at current levels are the same arguments being made six years ago, four years ago and two years ago.

hmm. We used to refer to a six month timespan as an “FU” (for “Friedman Unit.”)

Perhaps this 2-year span should henceforth be regarded as a “BU” (Boot Unit.)

Anyway, I haven’t managed to comment on topic yet, but mostly I just want us the hell out of any place the last Godly War Preznit decided to occupy, on principle.

Peadawg

March 19th, 2012
3:34 pm

“Imagine if it was not bush but our President that collapsed the global economy.

The cons would be screaming for impeachment.”

then you post this:

“So lets get real pea and stop the bs.”

Wow…now the “if” game. Atleast you’ve moved on from “blame” I suppose.

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
3:35 pm

jconservative — “No one knows who are Taliban and who are not Taliban. They all look alike and dress alike.”

I bet the locals know.

I heard an NPR story, probably around 2003 or so, that really made me laugh. I guess it was some background piece on Afghanistan, but while they were recording audio, there was a scuffling noice and voices going “talib, talib, talib.”

Apparently, some young local men had spotted a particularly mean and vicious member of the Taliban and decided to give him a little payback. So they chased him down, held him motionless and shaved his entire face and head. Then they let him go. :D

(ir)Rational

March 19th, 2012
3:35 pm

Doggone – I’m just trying to understand. Not trying to be (too) argumentative with you. With some others here, yeah, I’ll happily engage in all types of argument just to get a rise out of them, with you, I actually like/respect you, so nah.

JHM – And I don’t understand any of it beyond what I’ve read. I would have assumed you were always supposed to show up for drill also. Which is possibly where my confusion comes in. Or maybe it is when others on here (and in other places) simply throw out statements saying he was AWOL, but then you can see records from where he was honorably discharged. So I’m unable to comprehend. Also, all the ANG pilots I’ve ever known did it more as a full time job than a weekend per month type deal. But that could be more of a new development, or I could have just met them while they were doing their 2 weeks or something.

getalife

March 19th, 2012
3:36 pm

Like I said.

I will tell it like it is.

Some can’t take it.

TaxPayer

March 19th, 2012
3:36 pm

I’m sure that whatever the problem may be, we could clear it all up if only President Obama would release his birth certificate. No, not that one. The real one. Oh, and his college transcripts and the edited portion of that video that no one has seen yet. The one that poor departed Andrew would have shared with us if not for that massive coverup by the Obama administration. They’re the same ones that covered up you know what, you know where. Yep. That’s the one. Voldemort, voldemort. Ooh volde voldemort.

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
3:37 pm

The R’s simply have nothing to offer this time around. All the candidates are seriously flawed and no one is proposing any policies that are appreciably different from what W did. The complain that he spend too much but NO ONE is advocating repeal of anything he did. So it will be nothing but attacks and criticism of Obama from now on.

(ir)Rational

March 19th, 2012
3:37 pm

JHM – Reminds me somewhat of the stories that came out of Holland after the Nazis were pushed back and the citizens took their revenge on the sympathizers and collaborators.

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
3:40 pm

(ir)Rational — “JHM – Reminds me somewhat of the stories that came out of Holland after the Nazis were pushed back and the citizens took their revenge on the sympathizers and collaborators.”

That’s pretty much what I thought. With all the Americans around, I guess the guys with the barber tools weren’t afraid of the Taliban getting back at them.

getalife

March 19th, 2012
3:40 pm

Don’t forget,

Yup, they want to do it again.

Peadawg

March 19th, 2012
3:40 pm

You have any more childish games we can play, getalife? Or do you want to engage in good debate?

Recon 0311 2533

March 19th, 2012
3:44 pm

Doomy,

Joe Mama asserts that the failure to kill or capture OBL at Tora Bora is a George Bush failure. Even though the after action reports were speculative at best and some non-military reports unfairly pointed the finger at Gen. Tommy Franks. Joe mentions that the Green Berets were positioned to go after OBL and that isn’t what Special Forces Green Berets are in the business to do. It would have been a Delta, SEAL team or CIA covert operations mission and nothing has come from any of those guys. Just another left wing whopper that the libs immediately buy into when they read some far-left Web site and lap up the Kool-Aid.

(ir)Rational

March 19th, 2012
3:44 pm

JHM – Yeah, I feel like I should clarify somewhat in description of that. More like what happened with the women and children sympathizers and collaborators. Then men, from what I understand, gained unneeded/unwanted extra holes in their heads or were left hanging around in the town square.

Paul

March 19th, 2012
3:46 pm

(ir)Rational

Vietnam really was a different time. Even if one lived thru it, it’s difficult to imagine.

There was no ’support the troops’ attitude. There was no ‘military are heroes.’ There was no ‘we’re just doing our duty.’

Military were reviled, spat up, called baby killers or just ignored.

Yes, there was a draft, but it was full of loopholes to benefit a few.

If you had no money, no connections, no chance of a higher education, you got drafted into the Army or Marines and went to the meatgrinder of Vietnam.

If you could manage to get on a waiting list, you volunteered for the Navy or Air Force so you wouldn’t get drafted and could avoid Vietnam.

If you were fortunate, you got into college and got a deferment.

Then the lottery came. Your birthday determined your lottery number. Lowest went first. That was also extended to those in college.

So those with no options got drafted. Those with some options avoided Vietnam by enlisting in the Navy or Air Force. Those with options got a college deferment.

Now there was a special group who were super lucky and/or had family connections. They went into the Guard or Reserves. Because unlike today, the Guard and Reserves hardly ever go mobilized for Vietnam. It was a safe haven. It was also a political decision so middle class and upper class families wouldn’t withdraw support for the war.

So the ironical part is, even if someone served, in many cases it was a means to avoid getting drafted into the Army or Navy and avoiding Vietnam. There were further wrinkles. Bush did ask to go to Vietnam during his Guard time, but his type aircraft wasn’t used and the military wasn’t real big back then about qualifying someone in a new system just to get one more body over there. (If he’d have been a grunt wanting to go from armor to infantry the services would’ve taken a different view). There’s also the case of one particularly crazy person who joined the Navy, then promptly volunteered for one of the units that had one of the highest casualty rates of the war, Navy or otherwise. Did I say you had to be crazy to do something like that? Those guys drove small patrol boats up the rivers and got involved in some hellacious action. Lots of killed and wounded. The guy left service, became a US senator and ran for president.

And some …… people (I’m trying not to use some particularly harsh epithets here called him a coward.

As I said, it was an unreal time.

About as unreal as some peoples’ memories of it or the history some people who weren’t around for it hear.

getalife

March 19th, 2012
3:47 pm

What do you want to debate pea?

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
3:47 pm

I know the left wants us to think that Obama doesn’t have the power to do anything,

Ummmmm, I think you’re confusing left for right. Seems that the right is the group pushing the failed leadership, leading from behind, and other talking points to say that Obama can’t do anything….

TaxPayer

March 19th, 2012
3:48 pm

Bush could have no more been a failure at getting bin Laden than President Obama given that the Republicans have stated that the President does not possess that capability. Any failure therefore would have to be a result of some incompetent military personnel. Good thing President Obama got rid of them and put in some competent ones. Otherwise, we never would have taken out bin Laden.

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
3:50 pm

Recon — “Joe Mama asserts that the failure to kill or capture OBL at Tora Bora is a George Bush failure. Even though the after action reports were speculative at best and some non-military reports unfairly pointed the finger at Gen. Tommy Franks. Joe mentions that the Green Berets were positioned to go after OBL and that isn’t what Special Forces Green Berets are in the business to do.”

That’s why they requested additional support on the ground to cut off escape routes. Reports vary, but the ones I’ve seen indicate that about a battalion-plus worth of Marines were requested, and that’s been corroborated by Green Berets who were there at Tora Bora.

“It would have been a Delta, SEAL team or CIA covert operations mission and nothing has come from any of those guys.”

I love how you have absolutely *nothing* to support your claim and you act as if you’ve proven something with your nothing. (laughing, pointing) :D

“Just another left wing whopper that the libs immediately buy into when they read some far-left Web site and lap up the Kool-Aid.”

Just another bleating excuse for failure from those who make a habit of excusing failure.

getalife

March 19th, 2012
3:51 pm

Do you think the gop would stress tests our banks to find the ones that would fail?

Probably not.

(ir)Rational

March 19th, 2012
3:51 pm

Paul – From what I’ve heard, all that seems about right. Also explains both of my parent’s reactions when I was considering going into the Marines after high school. As they both grew up in the 70s and would have had their opinions of the military influenced by the time period in which they grew up. It does help explain it, and helps me understand it a bit more though.

carlosgvv

March 19th, 2012
3:53 pm

Mighty Righty

Can you furnish us with the names of the “communists and socialists” Obama has appointed to his administration?

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
3:53 pm

Paul @ 3:46

Quite a different day and time indeed.

Peadawg

March 19th, 2012
3:54 pm

“Do you think the gop would stress tests our banks to find the ones that would fail?” – Interesting idea but how do you stress test a bank? What would you look for? I’m curious on this one.

JKL2

March 19th, 2012
3:55 pm

Paul- Many would call it micromanaging, jumping over the chain of command and creating more work for the general in the field, who has to spend time preparing for the chats, then spend hours briefing his superiors over what the CIC asked about.

Sounds like the number one guy here talking to the number one guy there. Live intel as it were. You don’t believe anything they would tell the president he isn’t sending up as a report to centcom anyway? You don’t believe anyone who would receive that intel hasn’t already received it by the time it goes to the president? You don’t believe anyone who needs to know wouldn’t be included in the conference?

I know it works that way in the obama White House since he already knows everything, but a good leader, like President Bush was, knows how to organize things like this.

They Send Soldiers To Hell And EXPECT Them To Act Like Angels...We Ask So Much Of So Few

March 19th, 2012
3:56 pm

@Thulsa Doom

March 19th, 2012
1:08 pm
“When world leaked out that Bush let OBL get away at Tora Bora, did *that* destroy him politically?”

So W “let” OBL get away? Why would he “let” OBL get away? What purpose would it serve to “let” OBL get away.
*****************************************************************************************

Bush & Bin Laden – George W. Bush Had Ties to Billionaire bin Laden Brood

President Bush and the bin Laden family have been connected through dubious business deals since 1977, when Salem, the head of the bin Laden family business, one of the biggest construction companies in the world, invested in Bush’s start-up oil company, Arbusto Energy, Inc.

ENOUGH SAID

Recon 0311 2533

March 19th, 2012
4:04 pm

“I love how you have absolutely *nothing* to support your claim and you act as if you’ve proven something with your nothing. (laughing, pointing) :D

Joe, “nothing to support my claim”? Joe, what I’m claiming is that you’ve offered nothing to support your claim. What you’ve offered up is pure speculation. I don’t even think there was a battalion sized Marine Corps force in Afghanistan at the time of Tora Bora. Marine infantry was mostly committed to Iraq. Battalion strength units were sent in when the Afghan surge was authorized. Prior to that deployment there was only a Marine special operations detachment that was part of SOCOM. If it was a fact that OBL got away and Bush was to blame he never would have been re-elected.

JKL2

March 19th, 2012
4:06 pm

getalife- I will stay the course with the buck stops with the President

ROFL! That could actually be the funniest thing you have ever said.

Let me guess: You’re like the director of that short propoganda film? “obama is perfect” and “the only problem I had was trying to figure out which of his accomplishments to leave out since I only had 17 minutes”

Thulsa Doom

March 19th, 2012
4:09 pm

They send soldiers to hell,

Thanks man. I needed a good laugh and another liberal conspiracy concerning W was just the kind of comedic relief I needed.

Let’s see now. We got kooks saying W was behind the twin towers collapsing and just today we have kooks saying that W let OBL get away and that there is very little evidence W even served in the guard in Alabama. Lies and the liars that tell them.

JKL2

March 19th, 2012
4:10 pm

Did you hear that the economy is doing so well, that at our current spending rates, we are going to have to raise the debt ceiling again before the election?

obama: Stopping illegal immigration by making our dollar worth a peso!

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
4:12 pm

Recon — “Joe, “nothing to support my claim”? Joe, what I’m claiming is that you’ve offered nothing to support your claim. What you’ve offered up is pure speculation.”

Wrong. I’ve already provided links while you were out, and I’m willing to provide more. Have you asked politely? No.

“I don’t even think there was a battalion sized Marine Corps force in Afghanistan at the time of Tora Bora.”

Didn’t say there *was.* I said they *requested* one. Do you know the difference?

“Marine infantry was mostly committed to Iraq. Battalion strength units were sent in when the Afghan surge was authorized. Prior to that deployment there was only a Marine special operations detachment that was part of SOCOM.”

Shrug. I’ve seen multiple accounts indicating that the SF group at Tora Bora asked for Marine ground support in numbers ranging from 500 to 1000 men, about a battalion or so. Whether or not such resources were *available* has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not such a force was *requested* by the team on the ground.

“If it was a fact that OBL got away and Bush was to blame he never would have been re-elected.”

Good thing the fact that we were so close to getting him at Tora Bora didn’t come out until after the 2004 election then, huh?

Paul

March 19th, 2012
4:12 pm

JKL2

Point isn’t about if intel or reports are good. Point was weekly ‘chats’ are a sign of good leadership and not having the weekly ‘chats’ is a sign of bad leadership.

Any time the Commander in Chief jumps a couple levels down the chain of command all the skipped bosses are going to expect the subordinate on what the boss asked they didn’t know about, what he was told, what answers needed to be worked, what’s the timeline, etc etc etc.

It’s just the nature of the beast. And having served, Pres Bush knew that.

Then again, maybe Pres Bush didn’t trust the info filtering up to him and Pres Obama, having never been around the military high command, figured he could trust what his senior guys were telling him -

JKL2

March 19th, 2012
4:14 pm

-we have kooks saying that W let OBL get away

I thought that was Clinton? Twice?

Recon 0311 2533

March 19th, 2012
4:14 pm

Doomy,

At least Paul acknowledged in an earlier post that GWB did volunteer for Vietnam but wasn’t sent because his training was in outdated aircraft, which is a true account. You’re right though we’ve seen the lib kooks come out and swear up and down that he was in the Guard to avoid Vietnam.

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
4:15 pm

Doom — “there is very little evidence W even served in the guard in Alabama.”

Your conversion to the dark side is complete, young Jedi. Muhahahahahaha. :D

(ir)Rational

March 19th, 2012
4:18 pm

Recon – You and I both know they’ll change their tune to say he ONLY volunteered BECAUSE he knew he wouldn’t be sent. :)

JKL2

March 19th, 2012
4:19 pm

Paul- all the skipped bosses are going to expect the subordinate on what the boss asked they didn’t know about, what he was told, what answers needed to be worked, what’s the timeline, etc etc etc.

And you seriously believe all those chiefs aren’t included in a scheduled meeting? It wasn’t like they were talking on cell phones with each other. I guess technology has really changed since you were in.

Thulsa Doom

March 19th, 2012
4:19 pm

“There’s no proof Bush *wasn’t* there; there’s just very scant proof that he *was.* And there’s no proof at all that he ever did training or got paid in AL.”

Bullspit!

Really? Seems the kook conspiracies get bigger every day. A retired guardsman who saw him frequently, a woman in Bham who in interviews acknowledged dating W while he was in Alabama, pay records which the white house released from his guard service, and dental records from a dentist at Dannelly field in Montgomery. Sometimes Joe Mama not only is your blatant BS just too easy to refute but you really out to quit the outright dishonesty in your posts once and for all. You are full of it sport.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-02-13-bush-military_x.htm

Thulsa Doom

March 19th, 2012
4:21 pm

Joe mama,

And your lying ass has been busted yet again. Sit your silly self down in the nonsense corner sport.

B
O
O
M
!

Recon 0311 2533

March 19th, 2012
4:23 pm

Joe, your links have proven absolutely nothing. I read a couple and it was all speculation. Why would Marine Corps infantry and supporting units be requested when there was the Tenth Mountain Division and a Ranger Battalion along with other Army units in country. The closest base to move a Battalion landing team from would have been Okinawa. Your story doesn’t add up.

They Send Soldiers To Hell And EXPECT Them To Act Like Angels...We Ask So Much Of So Few

March 19th, 2012
4:24 pm

@Thulsa Doom

March 19th, 2012
4:09 pm
They send soldiers to hell,

Thanks man. I needed a good laugh and another liberal conspiracy concerning W was just the kind of comedic relief I needed.
***************************************************

Listen GENIUS…..

Can you spell G-O-G-G-L-E?

Anyone with a BRAIN can find this information.

George W. Bush Will Never Go After Osama bin Laden. Why? The B&B Company is Why.

ENOUGH SAID :)

(ir)Rational

March 19th, 2012
4:25 pm

Recon – Ummm…easy question to answer. One battalion of Marines > The entire Army. Duh. ;)

Paul

March 19th, 2012
4:27 pm

JKL2

Do you have a cite that all those weekly chats were in fact conference calls?

(ir)Rational

March 19th, 2012
4:28 pm

They Send Soldiers to Hell – Interesting statement you made there. “George W. Bush Will Never Go After Osama bin Laden. Why?” Easily answered. One, Bush isn’t President, and therefore has no authority to go after anyone. The other, bin Laden is dead. But hey, keep on thinking what you want. :roll:

Thulsa Doom

March 19th, 2012
4:28 pm

“No one said he never attended a reserve session. We’re saying he never attended one IN ALABAMA, and there are no records to prove he ever did.”

I can only guess that either Dan Rather or Joe Mama will attempt to say the dental records in Dannelly Field are false also.

K
O
O
K

A
L
E
R
T

J
O
E

M
A
M
A
!

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
4:29 pm

Cheney, on the other hand got 5 deferments.

rivercard

March 19th, 2012
4:30 pm

Thusla- Could care less about this issue as the fact is Bush never served in a war zone and is inarguably a silver spoon elitist chicken hawk.

But you linked to an article that provides one bush provided witness saying he was there and in the same article says this

“The 187th’s former commander, retired Brig. Gen. William Turnipseed, has said he doesn’t remember Bush ever turning up on base, and more than a dozen members of the 800-person unit, including its commander, told The Associated Press this week they have no recollection of Bush. Critics have made much of the fact that the White House has failed to produce anyone who could remember seeing Bush there. ”

Commander and dozen versus one partisan. If I was on a jury I know which way I would vote based on that.

Thulsa Doom

March 19th, 2012
4:30 pm

They send soldiers,

Its a tough, tough question as to who is the bigger kook you or Joe mama. Joe mama is purposefully dishonest but you. Naw. I think you’re just plain dumb.

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
4:32 pm

Well there’s a lot better proof that Obama was born in Hawaii than that W showed up in Alabama.

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
4:33 pm

Doom — “A retired guardsman who saw him frequently”

Cite?

“a woman in Bham who in interviews acknowledged dating W while he was in Alabama”

Yeah, because some chick the President was dating would have first-hand knowledge of his military drill attendance. (laughing) :D

We know he was IN Alabama. What’s at issue is whether or not he actually performed any military drill in Alabama. Can you present any evidence to support that, Doom?

“pay records which the white house released from his guard service”

Cite? The only pay records I’ve ever seen for the President’s drill have been from TX.

“and dental records from a dentist at Dannelly field in Montgomery.”

Yeah, I already mentioned those as evidence that he was IN Alabama, but they don’t establish that he actually *attended drill* in Alabama. If you’d actually read what I posted, then you could have avoided looking like a jackass.

“Sometimes Joe Mama not only is your blatant BS just too easy to refute but you really out to quit the outright dishonesty in your posts once and for all. You are full of it sport.”

The only outright dishonesty is your own, Doom. You asked for evidence, I provided it and offered more. Where’s yours?

Oh, yeah, some chick the President dated back in the 70s. THERE’S some convincing evidence (laughing)

“Joe mama, And your lying ass has been busted yet again.”

Not by you, boy. (laughing) :D

“Sit your silly self down in the nonsense corner sport.”

Your request has been denied, young Jedi. When you can present some actual evidence, then I’ll listen to what you have to say. OTOH, if all you can offer is some chick, then I’m going to have to take a pass on your tough-guy act, Cowboy. (laughing) :D

Thulsa Doom

March 19th, 2012
4:33 pm

rivercard,

There was also a woman who dated him when he was there and of course there is the question of those dental records at Dannelly where he was stationed. Hard to refute dental records ma’am. And pay records as well from guard duty. Keep playing stupid ma’am. Its what you libs do best. And just out of common damn sense how many people do you really remember from 30 freaking years ago. Damn you people are stupid.

Recon 0311 2533

March 19th, 2012
4:33 pm

(ir)Rational well while we always believe that we’re a cut above, the Tenth Mountain Division and Ranger Battalions are highly capable combat units. Joe claiming that Army Green Beret Special Forces requested a Marine combat battalion that would have had to have been deployed from somewhere outside of Afghanistan timely enough to seal off OBL’s escape routs out of Tora Bora just doesn’t add up.

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
4:34 pm

Recon — “Joe, your links have proven absolutely nothing. I read a couple and it was all speculation.”

Did you ever see the 60 Minutes story with the Green Beret who was at Tora Bora?

“Why would Marine Corps infantry and supporting units be requested when there was the Tenth Mountain Division and a Ranger Battalion along with other Army units in country. The closest base to move a Battalion landing team from would have been Okinawa. Your story doesn’t add up.”

Not my story. Story of one of the Green Berets who was there.

JKL2

March 19th, 2012
4:35 pm

Paul- Do you have a cite that all those weekly chats were in fact conference calls?

They keep it here. I forgot which “evil” president is trampling our civil rights though. I’m sure this is Bush’s fault too….

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/new-details-on-nsas-new-spy-center-and-secrets-from-domestic-eavesdropping-operation-stellar-wind/

godless heathen©

March 19th, 2012
4:35 pm

They Send Soldiers: Well if it’s on the Internet, we know it’s true. ;)

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
4:36 pm

Doom — “I can only guess that either Dan Rather or Joe Mama will attempt to say the dental records in Dannelly Field are false also.”

Doom, I *cited* those records an hour and a half ago as evidence that he was IN Alabama, which is not in question.

What’s missing is hard evidence that he actually participated in military drills WHILE he was in Alabama. Do you have any evidence to support that claim?

You may now continue to caper about like a wild animal. :D

(ir)Rational

March 19th, 2012
4:36 pm

Recon – I’ve only ever hear two (both biased) accounts of that issue. One – The Marine’s are better than anyone besides the SEALs. Two – The 101st is better than that. Like I said, both were very biased. One came from a Marine, the other coming from members of the 101st.

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
4:37 pm

Recon — “Joe claiming that Army Green Beret Special Forces requested a Marine combat battalion that would have had to have been deployed from somewhere outside of Afghanistan timely enough to seal off OBL’s escape routs out of Tora Bora just doesn’t add up.”

Again, not my claim. Did you see the 60 Minutes story?

Recon 0311 2533

March 19th, 2012
4:40 pm

“Not my story. Story of one of the Green Berets who was there.”

Joe, then his story doesn’t add up. Sounds like you may be unaware that there just was not a Marine Corps force that size in Afghanistan at that time.

Thulsa Doom

March 19th, 2012
4:41 pm

“Cite?”

Its in the USA today article I posted. Try reading it genius.

“We know he was IN Alabama”

Oh. Otay. So now you’re moving the goalposts, saying he was in Bama, and now saying prove someone was somewhere 30 freaking years ago when memories are a bit hazy.

“Yeah, I already mentioned those as evidence that he was IN Alabama, but they don’t establish that he actually *attended drill* in Alabama.”

Ma’am are you just stupid. He was stationed at Dannelly and apparently the dental exam was routine and done at the VA center there in Montgomery. I’ll take it that you’re just plain stupid. Dishonest too.

“The only outright dishonesty is your own, Doom. You asked for evidence, I provided it and offered more. Where’s yours?”

I just presented it. You’re just either too damn stupid or too blatantly dishonest to acknowledge it. Probably a combo of both in your pitiful case. Could you be any more moronic ma’am?

Last if you’re going to imply or suggest that he wasn’t there then the onus is on YOU to prove he wasn’t there. You just aint bright enough to figure that out are ya?

So prove he wasn’t there genius? Oh. You can’t do it? No surprise there. Just drum up another of your patented lies missy. Its about the only thing your lying ass is good for.

Keep Up--Te gusta losing woofinpoofs?

March 19th, 2012
4:42 pm

Funny thing this “disproving” of conspiracy theories with the absence of actual evidence. It seems to work so well for the “righties” when labeling “kook theories of the left” but fails so miserably when disproving kook theories of the right such as the claimed theory that global warming scientists and so many others are in a conspiracyabout birht certificates, about global warming or that Obama has control over gas prices and is a conspiracy to raise gas prices. Why you might believe that the poster who is determining what is being proven or disproven is merely being a jackarse in the application of “standards”. How shocking. :roll: Indeed the poster is expert on so many subjects its just amazing that he takes time to post on this lowly blog when he could be advising kings, presidents and leaders on how to solve so many of the woes of the world that are subject to the harsh outcomes of these “proven” conspiracies. :roll: :roll:

rivercard

March 19th, 2012
4:43 pm

Thulas- “There was also a woman who dated him when he was there and of course there is the question of those dental records at Dannelly where he was stationed. Hard to refute dental records ma’am. And pay records as well from guard duty. Keep playing stupid ma’am. Its what you libs do best. And just out of common damn sense how many people do you really remember from 30 freaking years ago. Damn you people are stupid.”
************************************************************************************

None of those were in the link you provided and that was what my comment was directed at. Stay on task.

I remember many people from 30 years ago. May I suggest your memory might be on a par with your reading comprehension. http://atlantaneurology.net/

Erwin's cat

March 19th, 2012
4:43 pm

Gaurders…Birthers…what’s the difference?

Thulsa Doom

March 19th, 2012
4:45 pm

Recon,

Joe mama makes up so much BS he can’t even keep up with it all. This is a guy who used to be deep into Repub politics and then one day he up and walked away, did a 180 degree turn and adopted every extreme kook left position out there. I think what happened with this kook is that people just didn’t like him personally, he was shunned,maybe he wanted a leadership position or to run for office and he was rebuffed, and it ticked him off, and he left the Repub party because of personal issues and he has a case of sore loser syndrome. Was he completely wrong on everything then, or completely wrong on everything now? Or was the kook just wrong most of the time then and now is wrong most of the time as a leftist kook. The lady has some issues.

Paul

March 19th, 2012
4:46 pm

JKL2

So you’re doubling down on the assertion weekly phone calls are a sign of good leadership and letting the guys to their job and letting the chain of command work is a sign of bad leadership. And as evidence you assert the calls were probably had hangers-on listening and the proof is in the NSA archives.

O-kaaaay…. I think we have a triple-down.

Again, the whole ‘he doesn’t do weekly phone calls’ is just another minor thing the leadership uses to convince the base the Pres hasn’t any leadership skills.

Thulsa Doom

March 19th, 2012
4:47 pm

Erwin’s cat,

There is no difference. Except that the kooks on here today can’t recognize the kookiness of their guarder issue. Bunch a loons. Sheesh.

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
4:48 pm

ir- then why do ranger’s lead the way?

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
4:48 pm

Recon — “Joe, then his story doesn’t add up. Sounds like you may be unaware that there just was not a Marine Corps force that size in Afghanistan at that time.”

I don’t see what its presence or lack thereof has to do with *requesting* one. Why don’t you watch the story online and then we can discuss what the guy said? Does that seem reasonable?

barking frog

March 19th, 2012
4:49 pm

Gaurders…Birthers…
what’s the difference
“!!!”"”"”"”"”"”"”!!!!!!”"”
some are Democrats
some are Republicans.

Recon 0311 2533

March 19th, 2012
4:49 pm

“The Marine’s are better than anyone besides the SEALs.”

(ir)rational, Marine Corps Force Recon matches up with Navy SEALs and in fact Marine Force troopers serve tours in SEAL teams. The special operations community comprised of units from all of the branch’s has a lot of inter service integration these days within SOCOM.

Thulsa Doom

March 19th, 2012
4:50 pm

“Again, not my claim. Did you see the 60 Minutes story?”

Oh my God, and now the kook is referencing the 60 miinutes after Dan Rather’s 60 minutes fiasco. Kooks rum amok today.

JamVet

March 19th, 2012
4:50 pm

Reliving the Bush failures of personal integrity is bad karma.

The man was a pathetic president. (With an even worse VP.) And a repeated moral failure before that. He just had the connections, money and power so that it didn’t cost him like it did regular guys.

Thank gawd his reign of error is behind us and the worst we now have to endure are his apologists who enabled him in the first place…

Thulsa Doom

March 19th, 2012
4:51 pm

rivercard,

Do you remember everyone from 30 years ago??? We all remember some people from 30 years ago. And a helluva lot of people that we don’t remember. jeez!

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
4:51 pm

Thulsa, what is your explanation as to why there are no records, other than dental, that Bush fulfilled his duies in Alabama?

Thulsa Doom

March 19th, 2012
4:52 pm

Joe Mama novel to Doomy coming up in

3

2

1
.
.
.
.

getalife

March 19th, 2012
4:52 pm

Russian troops engage in Syria for assad.

Saudis are arming the opposition.

The slaughter continues.

(ir)Rational

March 19th, 2012
4:53 pm

Don’t Forget – I said my opinions were biased.

Recon – I think the fact that some Marines serve in the SEALs is what made my granddad and his friends admit that they were as good as the Marines. That or they were afraid I might tell my godfather just to stir the sh*t (he was a SEAL Team Member at one point, but he REALLY never talked about it).

Thulsa Doom

March 19th, 2012
4:54 pm

Doomy gotta get going. Be back to read the kook’s novel and all other guarder comments later. Keep it coming kooks. We need the guarder issue for more comedic relief. Hmmm first we had the 9/11 kook conspiracy, then the OBL W let him go conspiracy, the guarder conspiracy. Did I leave out any of the kook conspiracies about W?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dan Quayle AKA Mr. Potatoe Head

March 19th, 2012
4:56 pm

I served with W in AL during Vietnam. We had to pull duty on the 1st thru the 18th.

After that we had a beer together on the 19th.

Recon 0311 2533

March 19th, 2012
4:56 pm

Joe, my point is that why would they request an asset that they would have had to have known wasn’t available? They must have known that given the urgency to prevent OBL’s escape that their request wouldn’t have been doable but that there were Army units close by that could have re-acted. Aside from that, yes I’ll try to Google that 60 Minutes story and try to find some logic in it. I won’t be able to do so until later this evening or tomorrow morning.

(ir)Rational

March 19th, 2012
4:57 pm

I’m out. Y’all have a great evening.

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
4:57 pm

Doom — “Its in the USA today article I posted. Try reading it genius.”

When you start reading my evidence, then I’ll start reading yours.

“Oh. Otay. So now you’re moving the goalposts, saying he was in Bama, and now saying prove someone was somewhere 30 freaking years ago when memories are a bit hazy.”

Nope. You should read what I posted an hour and a half ago, genius. Back when I stipulated that he was in AL, but that we didn’t have evidence that he actually attended any drill?

“Ma’am are you just stupid. He was stationed at Dannelly and apparently the dental exam was routine and done at the VA center there in Montgomery.”

Medical records don’t prove drill and they don’t prove attachment to a given unit or post. I have medical records from Army posts where I have *never* been stationed.

“I’ll take it that you’re just plain stupid. Dishonest too.”

Fine. And I’ll take it that you’re just ignorant of how the military works, your naval service notwithstanding.

“I just presented it. You’re just either too damn stupid or too blatantly dishonest to acknowledge it. Probably a combo of both in your pitiful case. Could you be any more moronic ma’am?”

Nope. No links were presented. I know you’re aching from the butt kicking I laid down on you last Friday, but do try to keep your panties on, Doom.

“Last if you’re going to imply or suggest that he wasn’t there then the onus is on YOU to prove he wasn’t there. You just aint bright enough to figure that out are ya?”

(laughing) You really are too foolish to be true, Doom. You don’t prove negatives — you prove positives. I don’t know if you’ve ever been in a courtroom, but the prosecutor’s job is to prove that the defendant DID do what he’s accused of. The defense doesn’t have to prove jack squat.

Now, if you were *actually* intelligent, you’d recognize how that applies to your position. If you want me to buy that President Bush ACTUALLY attended drill in Alabama. Not that he got his teeth worked on there, not that he dated some chick there, but that he ACTUALLY attended drill in Alabama.

If there was actual evidence that he was, you’d have no problem presenting it. Instead, you have to rely on some pathetic prove-he-wasn’t-there dodge.

Man, I love owning you, Doom. It’s so much fun to put you into a meltdown and watch you fling spit all over the board. (laughing) :D

“So prove he wasn’t there genius? Oh. You can’t do it? No surprise there. Just drum up another of your patented lies missy. Its about the only thing your lying ass is good for.”

Dance, puppet, dance! (clapping) :D

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
4:58 pm

Doom — “Oh my God, and now the kook is referencing the 60 miinutes after Dan Rather’s 60 minutes fiasco. Kooks rum amok today.”

Hush, Doom. The adults are having a conversation. Run along now.

Paul

March 19th, 2012
4:59 pm

“Russian troops engage in Syria for assad.”

Now McCain’s really going to call for intervention.

Payback for Korea.

Dan Quayle AKA Mr. Potatoe Head

March 19th, 2012
5:00 pm

W also got a wicked slice in AL then. I wonder if he got a Purple Heart?

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
5:02 pm

Recon — “Joe, my point is that why would they request an asset that they would have had to have known wasn’t available?”

I can’t speak to that, but there are multiple accounts indicating that the guys on the ground did ask for Marine support. I make no judgment regarding whether that was a good idea or not; I’m just relating what I’ve read and heard from multiple sources.

“They must have known that given the urgency to prevent OBL’s escape that their request wouldn’t have been doable but that there were Army units close by that could have re-acted. Aside from that, yes I’ll try to Google that 60 Minutes story and try to find some logic in it. I won’t be able to do so until later this evening or tomorrow morning.”

Okay. I appreciate your willingness to look into it. :)

Road Scholar

March 19th, 2012
5:03 pm

I assume Shrub learned how to fly…where did he learn to crash so many planes?

Paul

March 19th, 2012
5:07 pm

Road Scholar

The highest-scoriing ace of WWI had a couple of crashes before he ever saw combat.

So much for your implication.

josef

March 19th, 2012
5:08 pm

Enter your comments here

josef

March 19th, 2012
5:08 pm

Enter your comments here

getalife

March 19th, 2012
5:09 pm

Our President did not serve until he crushed aq, killed obl and daffy.

josef

March 19th, 2012
5:10 pm

I guess if you’ve got nothing to say, then say it twice! :-)

My comment on topic was supposed to be, there comes a time when the gain doesn’t equal the pain…

Paul

March 19th, 2012
5:11 pm

josef

what’d you say?

TaxPayer

March 19th, 2012
5:12 pm

Implication! What implication. Where did Bush learn to crash a plane. Is it not part of the training.

Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)

March 19th, 2012
5:14 pm

Well, we started off fighting them Towelheads because they let the Terrists train there. So we kicked the Taliban out and sort of had the tiger by the tail and was afraid to turn loose. One thing led to another and pretty soon we had more than 100,000 of our troops there. Then we done the only thing we know how to do, start training the guvmint’s troops, like we done in Iraq. Only the guvmint’s troops never wanted to fight. Then the guvmint that we helped set up turned against us.

It was sort of what we done in Iraq, seeing as how our guvmint is too stupid to learn from our mistakes. We just keep blundering and blundering and blundering.

Anyhow, danged if I know what to do. We been borrowing all this money to field a big army and now we’re telling the troops not to fire or they’ll kill some kid out gathering firewood. Like I said, we’re too stupid to learn from our mistakes. Iraq hates us and Afghanistan hates us. The only thing they both love is our money.

So why can’t we bring the troops home and use the money to set up a CCC or something like that to fix our bridges and roads and stuff? At least the jobless people that get jobs doing that won’t hate us for it.

But then I’m just a redneck and nobody pays much attention to me. Have a good night everybody.

Orange12

March 19th, 2012
5:18 pm

Gas prices are killing Obama’s reelection chances.

JamVet

March 19th, 2012
5:22 pm

Paul, to your point these swiftboating Republicans will go to great lengths to defend Bush’s military record.

And even greater lengths to denigrate Kerry’s and Cleland’s.

A word for them. Reprehensible.

Paul

March 19th, 2012
5:23 pm

“Anyhow, danged if I know what to do. ”

Dang, Redneck’s qualified to be a Republican presidential contender!

“So why can’t we bring the troops home and use the money to set up a CCC or something like that to fix our bridges and roads and stuff?”

Just don’t touch the janitor jobs. Newt wants those for schoolkids.

Paul

March 19th, 2012
5:25 pm

JamVet

Yes, yes and yes.

josef

March 19th, 2012
5:26 pm

Bush’s military service? Oh, let’s get real. Priviledged snot nose of the Carpetbagging elite and just like a lot of the rest of my generation, grabbed whatever was available to keep from going to Vietnam. Say what you will of Kerry, he could’ve but he didn’t…

Road Scholar

March 19th, 2012
5:26 pm

Paul: When did Shrub see combat? Alabama? And I’m not talking about the old tv show!

I have two nephews who have flown in Bosnia, Iraq and Afghanistan…..they have never crashed!

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
5:32 pm

(ir)Rational

March 19th, 2012
4:53 pm

Don’t Forget – I said my opinions were biased.

That’s good enough for me.

carlosgvv

March 19th, 2012
5:32 pm

JamVet – 5:22

I have two words for them. Useful idiots.

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
5:34 pm

Say what you will of Kerry, he could’ve but he didn’t…

Instead he got ridiculed for his purple heart. Lots of chutzbah on the right on that one.

JamVet

March 19th, 2012
5:34 pm

Yep, of all the innumerable nauseating lows of the past thirty years, the swiftboating slime, including the filthy Hannity, O’Reilly, Novak, Carlson and Limbaugh would get my vote as the worst of the worst of the worst…

Frankly, I wish a few vets had found them in a dark alley…

TaxPayer

March 19th, 2012
5:34 pm

“Bush did everything his daddy’s money and string pulling says he did.” — Swift JetPAC Veterans for Truth, Justice and Apple Pie

Paul

March 19th, 2012
5:34 pm

Road Scholar

“When did Shrub see combat?”

Are you the Liberal version of people who say “Obummer”?

Question’s irrelevant. Your initial post was Bush crashed a couple times. Implication was what? He was a lousy stick? I noted WWI’s highest scoring ace did the same at a time when he wasn’t in combat.

Seems like more irrelevant character assassination.

You want to go after a politician, pick something that matters. You have plenty of valid material instead of making an issue out of this nonsense.

Joe Hussein Mama

March 19th, 2012
5:37 pm

I don’t diss the service of other vets, President Bush and Senator McCain included.

I might not like their policies and I might disagree with them politically, but they put their country’s uniform on, and that makes them my brothers as far as I’m concerned.

President Bush did serve. Whether or not he actually performed duty in Alabama is an open question, but I’m not going to diss his service.

josef

March 19th, 2012
5:41 pm

DON’T FORGET

The attack on Kerry is about the lowest the partisans have yet sunk. They just flat disgust me with it.

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
5:41 pm

Doom

For the love of God himself, can you cease with calling people kooks? You’re sounding like a friggin’ 3rd grader.

josef

March 19th, 2012
5:43 pm

PAUL

Where did Shrub see combat? A county line juke joint outside Wetumpka?

Paul

March 19th, 2012
5:43 pm

Joe Hussein Mama

Amen. As I said, someone wants to go after a politician there’s plenty of stuff that matters.

They wore the uniform at a very horrendous time in our history. That’s good enough for me.

Time to move on.

Paul

March 19th, 2012
5:44 pm

josef

As I noted earlier, a fair question during Vietnam was “where did anyone who served in the Guard or Reserves see combat?”

307 more days

March 19th, 2012
5:49 pm

Dommy,
don’t you see that the left is diverting the attention away from their poor excuse for a leader. Who the $uck cares wheather W was in Alabama, I don’t. Kind of week in the ind to continue blaming everytrhing on W don’t you think? When will their leader do what they voted him into office for?
He better hurry, the count down has begun

josef

March 19th, 2012
5:49 pm

Well, the rest of y’all can say that daddy’s money buying your way out of combat while “serving” is good enough for you, but a f’ing lot of boys didn’t have that priviledged status and that’s NOT good enough for me…

And, yes, I try to move on, too, but every time this subject comes up, an awful lot of repressed anger about the inequalities of that time come to the conscious…

Paul

March 19th, 2012
5:50 pm

Back on topic.

I’d guess if Sgt Bales were civilian Bales, he just might get off on a diminished capacity or mental defense.

I wouldn’t hold my breath on that with the military, though. Too many negative implications for the top brass and their policy.

Paul

March 19th, 2012
5:54 pm

josef

I see your point, but I think the inequality wasn’t just Bush, but many Guard and Reservists.

And many who were able to go to college to avoid the draft.

And many who were able to get into the Navy and Air Force and avoid groundpounder duty in Vietnam.

I just suppose I recognize that was the way it was and hope now we can avoid some of the inequalities.

It’s one reason I support the all-volunteer force.
Bringing back the draft would, I think, be regressive. Oh, I know, people say “no loopholes’ but that’s not the nature of our system.

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
5:54 pm

They wore the uniform at a very horrendous time in our history. That’s good enough for me.

I can’t go that far. I have far more respect for those who actually had their asses on the line. From the stories my mom has shared with me, my uncle came back a very different person than he was when he left. My father-in-law still has flashbacks from time to time and was exposed to Agent Orange while he was there. Those who didn’t leave the US don’t have those problems.

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
5:56 pm

josef

March 19th, 2012
5:41 pm

DON’T FORGET

The attack on Kerry is about the lowest the partisans have yet sunk. They just flat disgust me with it.

Yeah, that one sticks with me as well. Obviously.

Old Timer

March 19th, 2012
6:02 pm

Well, the rest of y’all can say that daddy’s money buying your way out of combat while “serving” is good enough for you, but a f’ing lot of boys didn’t have that priviledged status and that’s NOT good enough for me…

And, yes, I try to move on, too, but every time this subject comes up, an awful lot of repressed anger about the inequalities of that time come to the conscious…

Amen, josef. I served during that time, while the privileged got college deferments and a great head start in the work force. To this day, I’m still angry. Poor people’s kids died or got horribly maimed, while the unctuous privileged went on and on about patriotism. They were and always will be draft-dodgers to me, no better and no worse than those who fled to Canada. “I had better things to do” indeed!

Paul

March 19th, 2012
6:04 pm

Brosephus

Same can be said for today. I don’t want to get into the business of telling one vet ‘your service is better than that vet’s service.”

getalife

March 19th, 2012
6:05 pm

willard abandoned freedom.

Good one sanitarium.

There is no low bar for the gop.

josef

March 19th, 2012
6:06 pm

PAUL

I have my personal story from that time and why I feel the way I do even today. My just older brother and a couple of his buds got into a little trouble. The local draft board in order to fill their quota had a policy of working with the courts. If the boy agreed to join the army, they’d not have to serve time. Our family had to pull to get my brother off on both. The other two boys didn’t. My brother, may he rest in peace, wouldn’t go for it. If they had to go, then so would he. He served three tours, was wounded and got him several medals. He came home and told me that when my number came up, if I didn’t go to Canada of my own free will, he’d hit me over the head and take me there in a croker sack. That fiasco of Vietnam took him from me at the very time a boy coming of age needed his big brother. Do I resent it? You bet I do, Every bit as much now an old fart preparing to meet my M*ker as I did then, if not more.

And those who DID take advantage of the options or who left the country? I don’t judge them for taking that option, but to come in claiming they “served” or sending my boy off to Bosnia, Iraq and Afghanistan? F them and the deferrment they rode in on….

TaxPayer

March 19th, 2012
6:07 pm

I have completed an exhaustive search of all known records and I cannot find any of President Obama’s military records. It’s like they don’t exist. How can he be qualified to be the civilian head of the US military without any military experience. HOW! Santorum and Romney and Gingrich, et al, should confront President Obama on this issue and forget about going after him on the birth certificate thing any more. I think that one’s a dead horse if you know what I mean.

JamVet

March 19th, 2012
6:08 pm

To this day, many (most?) neocons don’t care about a whit about what W ever did or didn’t do in the ANG. Or to Old Timer’s point that the epitome of cowardice – Dick Cheney – had priorities other than military service.

They were just obsessed with Kerry’s Purple Hearts and Cleland’s “lack of courage”.

And to those on the Permanent Bush Apology Tour, all of our problems started on January 21, 2009.

And it is going to be another miserable four more years coming up for them.

Karma is a b*tch.

And I love it.

getalife

March 19th, 2012
6:08 pm

willard said the economy is back.

It is not the economy stupid.

Four more years.

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
6:09 pm

no better and no worse than those who fled to Canada.

Actually I may respect those who break the rules more than those who have the power to get the rules made to suit them.

Tundra Dude

March 19th, 2012
6:12 pm

Recon wrote, in part:

They must have known that given the urgency to prevent OBL’s escape

Probably not as “urgent” as we’d like to believe:
My guess is, he was a loyal CIA asset for many years.

http://lewrockwell.com/spl3/bin-laden-hunter.html

The bin Laden hunter: ex-CIA man had bin Laden in his sights 10 times

Terrorist hunter Michael Scheuer tells Duncan Gardham and Iain Hollingshead how he was repeatedly ordered not to stop the al-Qaeda chief.

During his 22 years in the CIA – three and a half as head of a 18-man Osama bin Laden unit – he told his bosses at Langley on 10 occasions that he had a clear opportunity to kill or capture the terrorist chief. On all 10 he was told to hold his fire.

Paul

March 19th, 2012
6:12 pm

josef

Thanks. I wondered if that’s what was behind your feelings.

“He came home and told me that when my number came up, if I didn’t go to Canada of my own free will, he’d hit me over the head and take me there in a croker sack. ”

I won’t go into it, but that does stir some memories.

It’s quite a balancing act – keeping alive the memories of injustice so we can work for not having it repeat while not letting those memories become corrosive.

JamVet

Perhaps they can Google ‘myopia’ -

getalife

March 19th, 2012
6:14 pm

The pipeline will be built says the President.

Next issue.

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
6:15 pm

Paul

The same COULD be said, but things are very much different today. There’s almost no way of switching to a particular unit or group to avoid deployment. Almost everybody’s on the list to be deployed. If they don’t go to the sandbox, they’re going somewhere to relieve people going to the sandbox. I have a brother who retired from the National Guard who did a tour at Guantanamo. It’s almost impossible to have been in since the late 1980’s and not have seen some form of combat.

F. Sinkwich

March 19th, 2012
6:17 pm

ABC News, an O’bozo house organ:

“Two-thirds of Americans say the U.S. Supreme Court should throw out either the individual mandate in the federal health care law or the law in its entirety, signaling the depth of public disagreement with that element of the Affordable Care Act. This ABC News/Washington Post poll finds that Americans oppose the law overall by 52-41 percent. And 67 percent believe the high court should either ditch the law or at least the portion that requires nearly all Americans to have coverage.”

No wonder Jay is blogging about MARTA and such.

Deflect, Jay, just follow your orders from the DNC.

How about another blog on the ethics thing? We haven’t had one of those for a while…..

Dan Quayle AKA Mr. Potatoe Head

March 19th, 2012
6:18 pm

quit pickin on my buddy shrub!!!!!

Or I will have his daddy whip your daddy (or at least pay someone to whip him)

They BOTH suck

March 19th, 2012
6:19 pm

Bro

You mean deployment to a “war zone” or actual combat?

There are numerous military personnel who have been deployed to Iraq, Afganista even Bosnia in the 90s that have not seen combat……..

josef

March 19th, 2012
6:22 pm

PAUL

“All that” came to the fore when Oldest Boy Child made his decision to make a career of the military. The balancing act was not an easy one. It was his decision which he made for reasons of honoring his forebearers, Unmentionable’s and his Indian lines are from the warrior caste and theirs is a long tradition of military service. Still, though, we know that even in the all volunteer forces, economic and social class factors are still determining factors.

Paul

March 19th, 2012
6:23 pm

Brosephus

Good points, as usual -

The Real Disgusted

March 19th, 2012
6:29 pm

And 67 percent believe the high court should either ditch the law or at least the portion that requires nearly all Americans to have coverage.”

No wonder Jay is blogging about MARTA and such.

Well, Sinkwich, you’re entitled to your opinion. But after having finished my federal tax return and recorded $55,000 in deductible medical expenses—and that’s after removing 7% of AGI from the total and quite separate from the portion paid by United Healthcare and Medicare—I hope you’ll pardon me if I believe that something must absolutely be done about the amoral for-profit medical industry. And I’m sick of paying higher premiums to cover the cost of treating the uninsured in addition to Fulton County real estate taxes to help fund Grady’s care of the state’s indigent.

In short, I see a lot of people blasting “Obamacare,” but I see none proposing an alternative.

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
6:30 pm

They BOTH

Deployment. I know not all who are deployed see combat, but there are no guarantees when you’re in a war zone. Not to mention the stress that’s put on families when people get deployed. I have a brother-in-law who’s spent a good deal of the past 10 years sailing through the Indian Ocean and parts nearby. I don’t know what actual combat he’s seen, but I know he’s spent a great deal of time away from the family. I’ve also seen what that did to his relationship with my sister. The way our military personnel are moved around is much different than it was in the 60’s and 70’s too.

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
6:32 pm

In short, I see a lot of people blasting “Obamacare,” but I see none proposing an alternative.

You have to listen a little harder. While there is no big formal plan with a cute name such as “Obamacare”, there are little snippets of piecemeal ideas that are bantered around quite a bit. If/When those ideas are implimented, they’ll probably end up saying they are against them just as they’re now against the individual mandate even though it’s two biggest cheerleaders are running for president.

They BOTH suck

March 19th, 2012
6:33 pm

Bro

Just chking……. I grew up a military kid. My dad is retired Army: 3 tours in Vietnam

He has mild PTSD and suffers from ailments related to Agent Orange like your uncle…..

The family stress is very high. With the size of the military today and the number of deployments, today’s soldiers are on average away from their families more than in Vietnam

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
6:36 pm

F. Sinkwich
This ABC News/Washington Post poll finds that Americans oppose the law overall by 52-41 percent. And 67 percent believe the high court should either ditch the law or at least the portion that requires nearly all Americans to have coverage.”

Any explanation why 67% want it overturned when only 52% oppose it???? It suggests that some of the people who support the bill want it overturned. That makes no sense whatsoever.

saywhat?

March 19th, 2012
6:37 pm

The Real Disgusted- I’m so sure that if only you weren’t allowed to sue anybody and could buy your insurance across state lines, your total medical expenses would have been closer to $2.50, the same as a gallon of gas will be when the land of Wingnuttia is miraculously reborn in November 2012.

F. Sinkwich

March 19th, 2012
6:39 pm

“And I’m sick of paying higher premiums to cover the cost of treating the uninsured in addition to Fulton County real estate taxes to help fund Grady’s care of the state’s indigent.”

Me too, Real.

Obamacare will make it worse for you.

But you’re okay with that. I’m not.

The Real Disgusted

March 19th, 2012
6:40 pm

Any explanation why 67% want it overturned when only 52% oppose it???? It suggests that some of the people who support the bill want it overturned. That makes no sense whatsoever.

Don’t, a sizable portion of those opposing it maintain that they wanted single payer—e.g., Medicare-like— care to start with and are opposed to a law that gives insurance companies even more customers.

josef

March 19th, 2012
6:42 pm

REAL DISGUSTED
“And I’m sick of paying higher premiums to cover the cost of treating the uninsured in addition to Fulton County real estate taxes to help fund Grady’s care of the state’s indigent”

So, just let ‘em die in the street? That’s an awful lot of dead bodies festering in the Georgia sun you’ll have to crawl over to get where you’re going, not to mention health hazards…can you say cholera?

JamVet

March 19th, 2012
6:43 pm

What is up with the tent revival candidate calling Flip, “a Wall Street fee-nance-eer”?

Is he making up his own lingo, ala George nuke-ya-ler Bush?

F. Sinkwich

March 19th, 2012
6:45 pm

“Any explanation why 67% want it overturned when only 52% oppose it???? It suggests that some of the people who support the bill want it overturned. That makes no sense whatsoever.”

Go ask O’bozo’s house organ, ABC. They did the survey. My guess is the numbers are much worse, but since ABC has so much invested in O’bozo’s re-election like CBS, NBC, CNN, etc., they’ve been suppressed.

They BOTH suck

March 19th, 2012
6:47 pm

“My guess is the numbers are much worse, but since ABC has so much invested in O’bozo’s re-election like CBS, NBC, CNN, etc., they’ve been suppressed.”

What exactly do they have invested? Please make an effort to hold down the anger, rhetoric, hyperbole and talking points

josef

March 19th, 2012
6:49 pm

REAL DISGUSTED

“Don’t, a sizable portion of those opposing it maintain that they wanted single payer—e.g., Medicare-like— care to start with and are opposed to a law that gives insurance companies even more customers”

Good point. I get counted in the “opposed” category when this is exactly the reason I am opposed.

They Send Soldiers To Hell And EXPECT Them To Act Like Angels...We Ask So Much Of So Few

March 19th, 2012
6:49 pm

@Thulsa Doom

March 19th, 2012
4:30 pm
They send soldiers,

Its a tough, tough question as to who is the bigger kook you or Joe mama. Joe mama is purposefully dishonest but you. Naw. I think you’re just plain dumb.
************************************************

I DARE YOU to GOGGLE IT and get back to me.

If you have the GUTS.

Google George W. Bush and Bin Laden Relationship

Jm

March 19th, 2012
6:49 pm

“The pipeline will be built says the President.”

Lie

F. Sinkwich

March 19th, 2012
6:50 pm

“So, just let ‘em die in the street? That’s an awful lot of dead bodies festering in the Georgia sun you’ll have to crawl over to get where you’re going, not to mention health hazards…can you say cholera?”

josef is such a lib ilk — believe in O’bozo or people will die in the streets.

It ain’t working this time, dude.

The Real Disgusted

March 19th, 2012
6:50 pm

So, just let ‘em die in the street? That’s an awful lot of dead bodies festering in the Georgia sun you’ll have to crawl over to get where you’re going, not to mention health hazards…can you say cholera?

Nope. Let’s have coverage for everybody, instead of being selective about who pays for people who aren’t covered. Right now, we have treatment, regardless of ability to pay, mandated for hospitals. We have Medicaid and PeachCare. We have Medicare for seniors. Why not health insurance coverage for everybody, instead of doling out care selectively? We’re the only advanced nation on earth without universal care.

They Send Soldiers To Hell And EXPECT Them To Act Like Angels...We Ask So Much Of So Few

March 19th, 2012
6:51 pm

@godless heathen©

March 19th, 2012
4:35 pm
They Send Soldiers: Well if it’s on the Internet, we know it’s true
***********************************************************************************************

WELL if it’s on this BLOG, do we know what all of you say is TRUE? :)

hmmmmmmm

F. Sinkwich

March 19th, 2012
6:54 pm

“What exactly do they have invested?”

Uhhhh, their credibility?

They puffed this loser up to messiah status for two years. Remember “almost a god?”

They’re starting to realize they may backed a loser.

It’s painful for them.

Jm

March 19th, 2012
6:54 pm

They send

This blog is obviously not a part of the Internet :)

Jm

March 19th, 2012
6:55 pm

I think our country is sunk

But I hope not

josef

March 19th, 2012
6:55 pm

REAL DISGUSTED

You made the point further, and I will apologize for the strident misinterpretation…I agree with you.

SINKWICH

You still haven’t got it, have you? I’m no Obamista…and I can afford to be a lib…maybe someday you’ll make it and not have to shlep water for me and my ilk…

They Send Soldiers To Hell And EXPECT Them To Act Like Angels...We Ask So Much Of So Few

March 19th, 2012
6:56 pm

@Orange12

March 19th, 2012
5:18 pm
Gas prices are killing Obama’s reelection chances.

**********************************************************************

Stupidity and ignorance are killing the Republicans’ chances of BEING PRESIDENT.

F. Sinkwich

March 19th, 2012
6:56 pm

“We’re the only advanced nation on earth without universal care.”

And we kick their ass at everything, at least until O’bozo got elected.

They BOTH suck

March 19th, 2012
6:57 pm

“They’re starting to realize they may backed a loser.

It’s painful for them.”

In what way? do you have numbers to show their audience going down now and will go down even more if a Republican wins?

Will their investors all sell off? Provide factual specifics and less generalities to back up your statements

Thanks

They BOTH suck

March 19th, 2012
6:58 pm

josef

That anger hardly ever subsides it appears

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
6:59 pm

The Real Disgusted @ 6:40

Yep, your explanation sounds pretty reasonable. I’d be considered a no although I think we should provide basic care for everybody. I don’t see why we can’t have a hybrid system with basic clinical-type coverage for all and let insurance go back to being for catastrophic coverage. I don’t like the ACA because it’s nothing more than giving insurance companies unlimited revenue streams without them having to earn their customers like any other business would have to.

F. Sinkwich

March 19th, 2012
6:59 pm

“and I can afford to be a lib”

Our country can’t.

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
7:02 pm

Ok sinkwich, I get it, you’re a partisan hack to be ignored like all the other partisan hacks. Thanks for making that clear.

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
7:04 pm

DF

You’re just now coming to that realization??? :)

Mick

March 19th, 2012
7:06 pm

sink

You are clueless. Ever been to europe? I suggest you try to make it out of your neighborhood in your lifetime because america is not number one in everything and hasn’t been for quite a while now. Our train system is pathetic, our health care is a joke. Just pray you don’t get cancer here in the good ole USA…

F. Sinkwich

March 19th, 2012
7:06 pm

“Ok sinkwich, I get it, you’re a partisan hack”

I’m a conservative with libertarian leanings.

I ridicule lib ilks ’cause it’s so easy.

josef

March 19th, 2012
7:08 pm

BOTH

We can repress it, and we should. But when memory comes…My brother died a couple of months ago from an Agent Orange related cancer…and now the big brother I looked forward to sitting on the porch chewing the fat with in old age is gone…so, I suppose I did react a little strongly on this occasion of the subject coming up…

SINKWICH
Yes, we can. Just up my taxes a little more…and make certain the shekels go to those who need it…

Paul

March 19th, 2012
7:08 pm

Sinkwich (or anyone else)

Care to help me understand how, if the total cost of healthcare in this country for insured and uninsured alike is N

How will moving uninsured to insured increase healthcare by Y percent ?

So it’s N+Y

And not still N?

They BOTH suck

March 19th, 2012
7:09 pm

“I suggest you try to make it out of your neighborhood in your lifetime…..”

Can we be realistic and just start with the parent’s basement?

Don’t wont him to get lost on the 1st day

baby steps

F. Sinkwich

March 19th, 2012
7:09 pm

“Ever been to europe?”

Yep, many times. Europeans live in pathetically small homes, drive itty-bitty cars, and pretty much eat crap while paying taxes through the roof.

You like it? Move.

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
7:11 pm

Bro, lol I’ve been away for a while and forgot who the “whoopie cushions” were.

I’d agree with you on universal coverage, the question is what the best method is. And I think you’re right about the ACA but I’m afraid it’s the best we’ll get for some time.

Paul

March 19th, 2012
7:11 pm

Brosephus

Someone on the blog cited Switzerland’s healthcare and insurance system. Google the wiki article – it’s worth a read.

We may not be able to move to single payer but their system seems like a good compromise.

St Simons - we're on Island time

March 19th, 2012
7:11 pm

There is no political solution. To our troubled evolution.
Have no faith in constitution. There is no flippin’ revolution.
We are spirits in a material world.
Our so-called leaders speak. With words they try to jail you.
The subject ain’t the meaning. It’s the rhetoric of failure.
We are spirits in a material world.

-Thomas Jefferson, but could’ve been an English teacher or a Native..

Mick

March 19th, 2012
7:13 pm

**Europeans live in pathetically small homes, drive itty-bitty cars, and pretty much eat crap while paying taxes through the roof**

That’s a nice tunnel vision, I’m sure a european visiting atlanta could find the same there. Besides, your description sounds too cliche, I doubt you’ve ever made it out of your neighborhood…

They BOTH suck

March 19th, 2012
7:14 pm

josef

My apologies. I was making a joke about the conversation we had a week or so ago about the anger of one of fellow bloggers.

As for as your emotions; I also know the toll that war and its repercussions can take on an individual and the family and friends of that person. I wouldn’t any way attempt to ridicule, belittle or make light of the feeling and emotions you have in regards to the information your posted. Sorry that post was not definitive and came across as making a point about your experience.

carlosgvv

March 19th, 2012
7:16 pm

Brosephus – 5:54

The odds of this happening are about the same as winning the lottery.

They BOTH suck

March 19th, 2012
7:16 pm

Don’t Forget and Bro

Good points about the ACA. While not being the “answer”; hopefully it starts moving us in a better direction that what the aggregate has experienced in the last 30 yrs.

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
7:17 pm

sinkwich

I’m a conservative with libertarian leanings.

I ridicule lib ilks ’cause it’s so easy.

Why don’t you just go get laid instead? And feel free to interpret that any way you like. :lol:

josef

March 19th, 2012
7:18 pm

ST Simons

Hey, Pete, you owe me five dollars and a mushroom swiss plus interest!

SINKWICH
Be that as it may, they live longer and work less…

JamVet

March 19th, 2012
7:18 pm

F: “I’m a conservative reactionary with libertarian fascistic leanings.”

LOL.

And Europe many times?

Riiight.

Mick, the only Rome that guy has ever been to is the one in Georgia…

They BOTH suck

March 19th, 2012
7:19 pm

Don’t Forget

“Why don’t you just go get laid instead?”

He has to get out of the basement first………. Eating mommy’s peanut-butter samiches with the crust cut off and drinking juicy juice isn’t going to real in the hotties or even the notties

They BOTH suck

March 19th, 2012
7:20 pm

JamVet

Don’t forget the trip he took to Vienna and Rome as well

They BOTH suck

March 19th, 2012
7:21 pm

Meant Vienna and Athens

St Simons - we're on Island time

March 19th, 2012
7:22 pm

Top 10 hotspots for living the longest
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/14/longevity-hotspots_n_1339786.html

Is there a common thread? ooohhhhh yes there is, you know it
-excellent universal healthcare

but not here at the bottom in teabagger wonderland, noooo sir
helluva job, wingnuttia

josef

March 19th, 2012
7:22 pm

BOTH

Not to worry…I didn’t take it as ridicule when I read it wrong…I’m just a bit fixated, I suppose and as for the intention of the post….yeah, that’s the ticket! :-)

PAUL
@ 7:08

That makes my head ache… :-)

saywhat?

March 19th, 2012
7:22 pm

tBs re: Stinkwich “Please make an effort to hold down the anger, rhetoric, hyperbole and talking points”.
___________________________________________
What else has he got?

F. Sinkwich

March 19th, 2012
7:23 pm

“I doubt you’ve ever made it out of your neighborhood…”

Good for you. I pretty much don’t believe anything people post about themselves on this Al Gore invention either.

Especially about military service, business success, etc.

carlosgvv

March 19th, 2012
7:25 pm

Brosephus – 6:32

This is an old political trick. When you don’t have any real alternatives to your opponent’s ideas, you spend all you time attacking his stands on every issue. Every speech you make will be filled with chages against him, whether true or false makes no difference. The idea is to keep your oponent so tied up with answering these charges, he won’t have time to discuss his ideas on the relevant issues of the day. Naturally, you hope your supporters won’t realize what you’re doing. With most of the Republican electorate, this will be no problem whatsoever.

s

saywhat?

March 19th, 2012
7:25 pm

“Mick, the only Rome that guy has ever been to is the one in Georgia…”
______________________________________________________________________
Jamvet, that was awfully gracious of you to make such a generous assumption.

josef

March 19th, 2012
7:25 pm

Been to Rome, Athens, Vienna, Val d’Osta, and Dublin… :-)

St Simons - we're on Island time

March 19th, 2012
7:25 pm

josef – hey, know what’s in my wallet? Not 5 bucks, that’s what, i tell ya

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
7:26 pm

Paul

Just hit their wiki page, and that’s kinda what I have in mind. I’ve posted my idea here before, but I’ll do it again..

For primary care, use existing government health clinics and primary care practices that want to enter the basic system. Basic care would run like a single payer system where everyone has access to basic care. To fill the need for the additional primary care physicians, allow any graduating medical student full student loan forgiveness if they do 5 years of primary care practice. That will also give them experience in basic healthcare before they go into a specialization.

For emergency and all other, use the existing system we have with insurance providers offering insurance plans that would cover emergency, catastrophic, and even elective procedures. Allow the market to set the prices based on the coverage requested. Instead of having doctors fresh out of med school working in hospitals, you’d have doctors who have 5 years of primary care and have gone through training for their specialization. Furthermore, if they did the 5 years, they don’t have the potential of being influenced by financial difficulty as a good part of their student loans have been forgiven.

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
7:27 pm

Watching an R and a D talk about gas prices/oil production. Thanks to google, it only took a couple of minutes to prove they were both lying.

Paul

March 19th, 2012
7:27 pm

josef

:-)

Seems to me healthcare is a closed system with many of the uninsured using ER for routine care. Seems like an accounting situation where ‘hidden’ costs suddenly come out in the open and people say ‘wow! Look at that! Costs went up!!!”

When in reality they’re just more aware of them and have a different way of paying for them.

Paul

March 19th, 2012
7:28 pm

saywhat?

“What else has he got?”

Ilk?

Paul

March 19th, 2012
7:29 pm

Brosephus

Hopefully that’ll be Stage 2.

Probably take a couple decades to get there, though -

getalife

March 19th, 2012
7:31 pm

It was a socialized government project.

Then came the private sector and boom.

A bubble.

Need another bubble.

kayaker 71

March 19th, 2012
7:31 pm

It is amazing to me how you liberals can talk about the “Affordable Health Care Act” with a straight face. It is anything but affordable. Initial estimates at 940B. Now it’s 1.76T and by the time it is over, it will be about 2T dollars. We can’t afford this insanity. What do you pay for this fiasco with, Chinese money? The American electorate is not stupid, at least those who vote for a conservative ticket. Some of you would vote for anything, ignore the long term implications and costs, not to mention putting American medicine, the best on the planet, squarely in the bottom of the bucket. I know more than a few of my friends that are practicing physicians who are retiring rather than practice medicine under these conditions. I am sure glad that I don’t have to practice under these conditions and would not under any circumstances. Then what will you have left?….. the hangers on who are trapped into paying gazillions of dollars in student loans and have no other choice. And Bozo could care less.

St Simons - we're on Island time

March 19th, 2012
7:31 pm

-Been to Rome, Athens, Vienna, Val d’Osta, and Dublin…

don’t forget Cairo & the pyramids at Blakely (nice work, ancestors)

and Helen, or as the natives say, Hell-in-Georgia

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
7:31 pm

carlos @ 7:25

You’re right on target… Have I ever expressed my disdain for politicians?? I don’t really like them very much at all. Your post is one of the reasons why. :)

————————–

the only Rome that guy has ever been to is the one in Georgia…

Hell, that’s the only Rome I’ve been to. :)

I have, however, experienced the thrill of rolling on the Autobahn with no speed limit. Most Americans wouldn’t survive on the Autobahn. On those roads, you definitely do not hog the left lane.

josef

March 19th, 2012
7:32 pm

St Simon’s

The spirit of the electrical cord is with me today.

0311/8541/5811/1811

March 19th, 2012
7:33 pm

Staff Sgt. Robert Bales committed a horrible crime in Afghanistan but those who would condemn him outright should step back
and ask at least one question. What kind of person would I have become after four tours of infantry combat ? The military court
system will ultimately determine his fate but consider this.

“Warriors deal with death. They take life away from others. This is normally the role of God. Asking young warriors to take on that
role without adequate psychological and spiritual preparation can lead to damaging consequences …………. For the most part they have
been left to do this on their own.”

Many combat veterans, especially those who were in the infantry, suffer from PTSD. It is the “shadow” that will stay with them
throughout their life. “If you talk about what you are proud of, you’re are bragging. If you talk about what was painful or sad, you’re
whining. If you talk about the brutality, you’re brutal. Society simply wants us to shut up about all of this.”

The politicians in Washington so easily send our troops off to war but they don’t suffer the consequences.

Dulce Bellum Inexpertis (War is Sweet for the Inexperienced).

Note: The above quotes are from “What it is Like to go to War” by Karl Marlantes

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
7:34 pm

Paul

That’s the problem I see. It shouldn’t take decades to get to that point. We already have the infrastructure in place now. It wouldn’t take much effort at all to impliment, and I think the savings would reap benefits beyond what we could estimate. I think our health care costs would diminish greatly simply by getting basic care to everyone. That, along with better diets and exercise would take care of many of our medical issues here in the US.

Paul

March 19th, 2012
7:34 pm

getalife

“Need another bubble.”

Ask and ye shall receive –

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAmoEED_mvA#t=00m15s

The first verse is for josef on a Saturday night -

They BOTH suck

March 19th, 2012
7:35 pm

“The American electorate is not stupid, at least those who vote for a conservative ticket. ”

WOW…….. Only BIG BRAINS on the right

Thanks for the info

Orange12

March 19th, 2012
7:35 pm

They send soldiers@6:56Stupidity and ignorance are killing the Republicans’ chances of BEING PRESIDENT.

Back your statement up. I bet you are just having a little temper tantrum and can’t back up what you post. I however can back up everything I’ve ever posted here. I say again gas prices are and will destroy whatever small chance of Obama ever being reelected.

They BOTH suck

March 19th, 2012
7:35 pm

Kayaker

You need to read some of the posts from your fellow right leaning bloggers………….

Paul

March 19th, 2012
7:36 pm

kayaker 71

Care to help me understand how, if the total cost of healthcare in this country for insured and uninsured alike is N

How will moving uninsured to insured increase healthcare by Y percent ?

So it’s N+Y

And not still N?

The Real Disgusted

March 19th, 2012
7:38 pm

To fill the need for the additional primary care physicians, allow any graduating medical student full student loan forgiveness if they do 5 years of primary care practice. That will also give them experience in basic healthcare before they go into a specialization.

Won’t work, Bro. We already have programs like that—loan forgiveness for those who practice in “under-served” areas. Hardly anybody takes advantage of such programs?

Know why? Because the primary goal of most medical school graduates is to earn the big shekels. We’re the only government, to my knowledge, willing to restrict the supply of physicians by limiting the number of medical schools, limiting the number of entrants to them, and allowing physicians, like the medieval craft guilds, to operate the licensing. Government even limits the supply of hospitals to further that goal of earning the big shekels. Many of these physicians graduated with generous underwriting by taxpayers and contributors, and then we pretend that this is all “free enterprise.” Just take a look at other countries and count the number of physicians who live in million-dollar houses. You won’t find many.

Paul

March 19th, 2012
7:38 pm

Brosephus

“We already have the infrastructure in place now. It wouldn’t take much effort at all to impliment”

Well, given most opposed to Obamacare’s insurance mandate already have insurance so they’re getting their panties in a wad because ‘the government’s telling someone else what to do” and…. well…. it’ll take a bit of effort going up against that mindset.

saywhat?

March 19th, 2012
7:38 pm

0311/8541/5811/1811 ” blah blah blah blah” unless you are a Muslim U.S. soldier, then its terrorism.

Soothsayer

March 19th, 2012
7:39 pm

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
7:39 pm

Some of you would vote for anything, ignore the long term implications and costs,

Yep, y’all conservatives did that and Congress got our credit rating dropped as a result….

JamVet

March 19th, 2012
7:39 pm

12, Intrade is ready when you are.

So are the bookies in Vegas.

They’ll be very glad to take you up on your bet of “whatever small chance of Obama ever being reelected.”

Real easy money. I can’t you believe you haven’t gone all in yet!

josef

March 19th, 2012
7:43 pm

Okay, Spring has sprung so a night sleeping on the verandah won’t be THAT bad, so I’ll say it…

Nationalize the health care system and be done with it…the medical profession and the insurance companies had their chance to reform and chose not to…

kayaker 71

March 19th, 2012
7:44 pm

Paul, 7:36,

Close to 67% of those polled do not want the government involved in their health care…. and it is absolutely amazing to me that a thinking person like yourself believes that a President of the US has the right to tell any private corporation that they must provide a certain commodity to the American public and then turn around and tell the American people that they have to, at the point of a gun, buy the damn thing. He is way over his head. His mandates might make him a happy camper but I would bet that the electorate is not too pleased with this scenario.

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
7:45 pm

The Real Disgusted

I think the reason most people don’t take advantage of the current program is because of it’s limited scope in locations. If we went to a basic care system and physicians were not limited to “under served” areas, I think there would be more who took advantage of that kind of program. I know that many of them want to get to the big $$$, but I think there would be a few more who stuck with primary care if they were exposed to that area and their true reason for getting into medicine was helping people.

————————–

Paul

That’s when you employ the Jedi Mind Trick. Make the people think it was their idea all along. Hell, if you can get people to believe Obama is a Muslim while spending 20 years in a Christian Church that hates America, getting people to buy into the medical system should be a breeze.

josef

March 19th, 2012
7:45 pm

ZamVet

The Romany Lady is still giving no odds on November…
;-)

TaxPayer

March 19th, 2012
7:46 pm

Uh Oh! Did someone just ask a con to show his work! That shuts ‘em up every time. :lol:

getalife

March 19th, 2012
7:46 pm

Paul,

Big bubble not tiny.

Are we beating on filky getting laid?

I got 20 on no.

They BOTH suck

March 19th, 2012
7:47 pm

Unless numerous polling orgs have all been polling other people besides the electorate, I think you might be missing something

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/president_obama_vs_republican_candidates.html

josef

March 19th, 2012
7:47 pm

Paul

March 19th, 2012
7:47 pm

kayaker

“Close to 67% of those polled do not want the government involved in their health care”

I was watching something on Fox a few days ago but said that specifically, two-thirds were opposed to the individual mandate.

If a person has insurance, how does the individual mandate mean gov’t’s involved in their health care?

And if it’s not the mandate, how does Obamacare involve the gov’t in their care?

Serious questions. I don’t know so am looking for answers as to what’s causing all the angst.

They BOTH suck

March 19th, 2012
7:48 pm

“Hell, if you can get people to believe Obama is a Muslim while spending 20 years in a Christian Church that hates America, getting people to buy into the medical system should be a breeze.”

They did such a great job on that before last election………. a percentage of the electorate still believe it………

Paul

March 19th, 2012
7:49 pm

Brosephus 7:45

Okay, that made me laugh!

getalife

Someone would give odds on that?

You just saved yourself a trip to Vegas and paid for your next trip to the Big D.

Ever watch GCB? No wonder you like visiting here -

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
7:50 pm

They BOTH

These are the only poles that matter…..

http://www.lilmynx.com/index.php

http://www.platinumstages.com/

St Simons - we're on Island time

March 19th, 2012
7:51 pm

“where does the answer lie” – We humans don’t have the answer,
so political & secular leaders have clever lies that they pass off as facts

“We Live from day to day
If it’s something we can’t buy
There must be another way”
The capitalist/money system we humans use is a reflection
of our failed attempts at governing ourselves

not the other way around, silly cons

Orange12

March 19th, 2012
7:51 pm

Jamvet@7:39
I’m not blogging with the bookies in Vegas. I am saying that Obama has done nothing except bring this country to the brink of financial disaster b(Fed deficit) and will continue to put us in the hole for 1.5 trillian per year if reelected. Go ahead and vote for him if you wish, that’s your right. However, I’m sure there are many of us who will vote for the other candidate.

The Real Disgusted

March 19th, 2012
7:52 pm

Serious questions. I don’t know so am looking for answers as to what’s causing all the angst.

You won’t get them here, Paul. If Obama’s fer it, they’re again it. The simple truth is that most opponents of the healthcare law don’t give a hoot ‘n hell whether poor people live or die. As long as the existing system meets their needs, they’re against anything that threatens to raise their taxes at some point in the future. I won’t even get into the racial animus.

They BOTH suck

March 19th, 2012
7:52 pm

Bro

You have a point…….. I just love it when someone will post a poll about ACA or something else than when you post one about the election, they either ignore it or denounce it…….

My poll is good, yours is bad

CHEVY runs deep in Georgia!!

March 19th, 2012
7:52 pm

Paul

March 19th, 2012
7:54 pm

Okay, Brosephus, hopefully you weren’t on here the first time I asked this.

Who was Alexander Graham Kowalski?

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
7:55 pm

josef, Paul, & They BOTH

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mind_trick

When using a Jedi mind trick, a Jedi often waved his or her hand to aid in the persuasion. The Jedi adopted a peculiar tone of voice along with a casual facial expression. The sentient being that was the object of the mind trick tended to adopt a casual tone of voice but a peculiar facial expression. Should the trick succeed, he or she then agreed to whatever was being said to them without being able to think for themselves. Moments later, they would feel puzzled about their new opinion, but usually didn’t feel like changing it back.

Does that not sound like our current system of politics??? Think about all the political opinion posted here, by both sides, and re-read that passage. Our country and political system has been infiltrated by Jedi Masters….

getalife

March 19th, 2012
7:56 pm

We got a C and GA got a F grade on corruption.

Texas got a D.

I guess they missed the NOPD.

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
7:57 pm

Paul

Haven’t heard of him before. Should I google?

Paul

March 19th, 2012
7:57 pm

Brosephus

Well, I can see Pres Obama as a Star Wars nerd, but Gingrich, Santorum and Romney?

Fughetaboutit!!!

Paul

March 19th, 2012
7:57 pm

Brosephus

Do you no good.

He was the first telephone pole.

They BOTH suck

March 19th, 2012
7:58 pm

Bro

In some cases it is as much a mind f**k as it is a trick

0311/8541/5811/1811

March 19th, 2012
8:00 pm

saywhat? :

That will depend on the military court’s decision on his mental/emotional capacity at the time.

In addition, terrorism and mass murder to not have the same definitions or even purpose.

terrorism: “the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.”

mass murder: “is the act of murdering a large number of people (four or more), typically at the same time or over a relatively short period of time.”

Every war has had its atrocities. This one is no different.

Try four tours on sometime and see what kind of person you become even though you may never commit murder.

kayaker 71

March 19th, 2012
8:01 pm

Paul, 7:47,

Health care insurance premiums are built into every commodity that we buy. This cost is passed onto the American consumer in the form of higher prices. There eventually comes a time when the price of a widget will not bear the increased cost of insuring the employee. Then the company drops coverage for their employees because they can no longer afford it. Where do they go for their coverage? Certainly not to a private insurance company. Enter Bozo and the government. If Bozo has his way, the private insurance company will go the way of the Smith Corona typewriter and sooner rather than later. There goes fee for service medical care which has no place in a socialized system. Enter longer lines, some government hack telling doctors how they must practice and telling the patient what kind of care they can have. Do you really want this kind of health care? I don’t know how old you are but as you age, it scares you half to death…. no pun intended.

0311/8541/5811/1811

March 19th, 2012
8:01 pm

Headline (NBC): “Biden Gets Booed At St. Patrick’s Day Parade In Pittsburgh”

F. Sinkwich

March 19th, 2012
8:02 pm

“Many of these physicians graduated with generous underwriting by taxpayers and contributors,”

BS.

Got any proof? Nope.

Typical lib ilk.

Paul

March 19th, 2012
8:03 pm

kayaker

Still doesn’t explain how total costs would rise.

Those are just shifting the costs. Saw one estimate that a family of four with insurance has an extra grand a year in their costs to cover uninsured.

josef

March 19th, 2012
8:05 pm

PAUL

Tiny bubbles, eh? :-)

BROSEPHUS

Well, there ARE these Poles….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPdR33DSHQA&feature=fvst

F. Sinkwich

March 19th, 2012
8:05 pm

“Enter longer lines, some government hack telling doctors how they must practice and telling the patient what kind of care they can have.”

Lib ilks luv themselves Death Panels.

Conservatives to the front of the line!

F. Sinkwich

March 19th, 2012
8:06 pm

“Headline (NBC): “Biden Gets Booed At St. Patrick’s Day Parade In Pittsburgh”

Shocked, just shocked!

Paul

March 19th, 2012
8:07 pm

I’ve got brats, sauerkraut and chunky applesauce waiting.

Pleasant evening, all -

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
8:09 pm

Kayaker
and it is absolutely amazing to me that a thinking person like yourself believes that a President of the US has the right to tell any private corporation that they must provide a certain commodity to the American public and then turn around and tell the American people that they have to, at the point of a gun, buy the damn thing.

So what do you think of the law Reagan signed in 1986 that required hospitals to treat patients regardless of whether the patient had any ability to pay?

DebbieDoRight - Doing The Dew

March 19th, 2012
8:10 pm

Staff Sgt. Robert Bales committed a horrible crime in Afghanistan but those who would condemn him outright should step back
and ask at least one question. What kind of person would I have become after four tours of infantry combat

Scout, as you know ALL soldiers fall under the UCMJ — no matter how many tours of duty that they have had. Although I sympathize with the him, my biggest sympathy falls to the children that he murdered and the lives of his fellow compatriots that he put in danger.

Keep Up--Te gusta losing woofinpoofs?

March 19th, 2012
8:12 pm

some government hack telling doctors how they must practice and telling the patient what kind of care they can have

You mean like today when I had to call the insurance company to try to get pre-approval for a procedure recommended by my doctor and their denial? Personally, i would trust some neutral govt process rather than some insurance company hack looking to “save” the company a buck so they could make more profit.

Keep Up--Te gusta losing woofinpoofs?

March 19th, 2012
8:14 pm

What kind of person would I have become after four tours of infantry combat

and how might you Scout have contributed to becoming that person by the hatred and the vitroil you express here most nights. You might consider your responsibility.

0311/8541/5811/1811

March 19th, 2012
8:16 pm

DebbieDoRight – Doing The Dew :

That’s why I called it a “horrible crime”.

My larger point is that our “arm-chair warrior” politicians have asked too much of our troops. It’s a miracle there have not been more such incidents.

0311/8541/5811/1811

March 19th, 2012
8:17 pm

Keep Up–Te gusta losing woofinpoofs:

“Hatred and vitriol” ?

I think even some of my liberal friends would disagree with you.

JamVet

March 19th, 2012
8:17 pm

…has done nothing except bring this country to the brink of financial disaster…

You are off by almost four years. I suspect intentionally. The actual date was September 2008.

When the guy you voted for twice oversaw the attempted corporate destruction of capitalism. You must remember that? When $3,000,000,000,000.00 of other peoples money basically disappeared overnight? Legalized thievery on a scale never before seen.

The Great Recession. The implosion that sent cataclysms around the planet and caused a massive global economic recession in 2008?

The one, from which the republic still reels? Record bankruptcies, foreclosures, homelessness, modern day unemployment and despair? Or is that all just a distant memory now?

The ONLY silver lining that I could see to that “sustained orgy of greed and reckless behavior” was that a whole sh*tload of trickled on Republicans got clobbered this time.

As for Barry, I voted against him the first time and will do so again.

But that doesn’t mean I’m a bookies wet dream!

F. Sinkwich

March 19th, 2012
8:18 pm

” i would trust some neutral govt process”

Neutral???

Bwahahahahaha!

You’re dead. Death Panel said so.

Sucks to be you.

DebbieDoRight - Doing The Dew

March 19th, 2012
8:19 pm

getalife: guess they missed the NOPD.

not to worry — they’re probably in the top 10 for corrupt police department — sanford (fla) is #1.
==============

scout: Try four tours on sometime and see what kind of person you become even though you may never commit murder.

Again, refer to the UCMJ for direction on this matter.

TaxPayer

March 19th, 2012
8:20 pm

Cons think it is a bad thing to require insurance companies to return at least 80% of the premiums that they collect from those that they claim to provide insurance to in the form of services. As though 20% is not enough to cover their desired level of greed. That’s part of why the cons want to undo the Affordable Care Act. The notion of affordable care getting in the way of their greed is just overwhelming.

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
8:21 pm

Paul

:lol: :lol: :lol:

————————–

They BOTH

Are you not supposed to get a semblance of pleasure from a mind f**k?

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
8:22 pm

Scout, it’s a tragedy. And although the soldier will have to face the consequences of his actions there’s is a little bit of a sick feeling that maybe this might have been prevented.

They BOTH suck

March 19th, 2012
8:22 pm

Bro

That would be determined by what kind and by whom………..

DebbieDoRight - Doing The Dew

March 19th, 2012
8:22 pm

My larger point is that our “arm-chair warrior” politicians have asked too much of our troops. It’s a miracle there have not been more such incidents.

In that, we agree.

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
8:23 pm

josef

SE!! and I forgot those poles… Some people would find them even more important than my poles. :)

F. Sinkwich

March 19th, 2012
8:24 pm

“As for Barry, I voted against him the first time and will do so again.”

Al Gore’s invention was made for the likes of AmVet. No one with a brain believes that, dude.

Inflated ego, thy name is REMF.

TaxPayer

March 19th, 2012
8:25 pm

Sarah Palin can see death panels from her dream porch in the arctic tundra just across from Putin’s back yard.

0311/8541/5811/1811

March 19th, 2012
8:28 pm

DebbieDoRight – Doing The Dew :

“Again, refer to the UCMJ for direction on this matter.”

As I stated, “The military court system will ultimately determine his fate ………………”

Producer

March 19th, 2012
8:28 pm

Bales, if the info is true, is now a mass murder with one less credit than Jeffrey Dahmer. There is no defending the guy under any circumstances. He deserves to die for what he did.

Pull our troops out tomorrow, too. I agree with other posters that not one more American drop of blood is worth trying to “help” these horrid “people.’ They are not even the calber of animals.

Orange12

March 19th, 2012
8:28 pm

JamVet

What was the national deficit in 2008 and what is it now? Case closed!

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
8:30 pm

They BOTH

Gotcha!!!! I’d prefer to enjoy pleasure if I’m receiving one. :)

JamVet

March 19th, 2012
8:31 pm

Hey Frankie, tell us about your “many trips” to Europe, OK?

Did you visit the queen?

And like that dead Norwegian Blue parrot in the famous Monty Python sketch, are you pining for the fjords?

Crackpot…

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
8:32 pm

What was the national deficit in 2008 and what is it now? Case closed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwxFCj863gg#t=00m10s

I’m lost…

JamVet

March 19th, 2012
8:37 pm

Case closed!

No, just your mind.

You still have no earthly idea what happened back then, do you?

And you really think that this nation is going to just roll over, play stupid and trust yet another neocon with these massive problems? The new, repackaged George Bush wannabe?

More trickle down economics?

More let the free market police itself?

More of your get rid of all the regulations claptrap?

We tried all of that for thirty years and look at EXACTLY where it has gotten us.

Oy…

0311/8541/5811/1811

March 19th, 2012
8:38 pm

Producer:

“They are not even the calber of animals.”

Then by your logic Bales couldn’t have committed “murder” ! I think you better re-check your position on that.

josef

March 19th, 2012
8:39 pm

BROSEPHUS

Gotcha…and your poles and my Poles could work together!

ZamVet

Some folks can’t get it through they thick lil skulls that just cause you don’t care for A, then you must per force be for B….

And then there’s the mes, a pox on all their houses!

barking frog

March 19th, 2012
8:39 pm

Brocephus,
Let me help, go
neither right nor left
just go straight and
you’ll be o.k.

Orange12

March 19th, 2012
8:40 pm

Jamvet,

Whose mind is closed. Still want to argue with those figures? Newsflash, you can’t. They are etched in stone.

josef

March 19th, 2012
8:43 pm

ZamVet

He did, and he frightened a little mousie under her chair.

The Norwegian Blue…we’ve got a slug…and it talks! :-)

0311/8541/5811/1811

March 19th, 2012
8:45 pm

JamVet

March 19th, 2012
8:45 pm

jo, they are a collective logical fallacy.

A false dilemma (also called false dichotomy, the either-or fallacy, fallacy of false choice, black-and-white thinking, or the fallacy of exhaustive hypotheses) is a type of logical fallacy that involves a situation in which only two alternatives are considered, when in fact there are additional options (sometimes shades of grey between the extremes).

No grey there, just…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1e41AVdeus

TaxPayer

March 19th, 2012
8:47 pm

2008! That was the year that Bush and the Republicans drove the bus over the cliff and didn’t say “Uh Oh” until they hit bottom and found out that their actions have consequences. Then Bush and Co. proceeded to spend trillions to start to undo their mess right before handing the reins over to a more qualified administration. Did y’all know that Bush nationalized the largest insurance company in the world in 2008 when his administration took ownership of AIG and proceeded to use them (and other means) to funnel hundreds of billions of dollars to banks around the globe in order to prevent the collapse of the US and even the global economy. Yes. To the Bush administration’s credit, they initiated the efforts that prevented millions of US citizens from losing bank holding in excess of the 100k limit that the FDIC insured and they made sure that money market funds did not continue on their death march of “breaking the buck”, etc. Much to the dismay of the party faithful. That Bush administration didn’t even have the courage to just accept the mess that they helped create even though most of the rest of the GOP were more than willing to sit back and fiddle while the USA finished burning. So, in the end, Bush turned on his own party and is now branded a traitor. His name must be wiped from the annals of GOP history for all time. Voldemort, voldemort, Ooh, volde voldemort.

They BOTH suck

March 19th, 2012
8:49 pm

St Simons - we're on Island time

March 19th, 2012
8:50 pm

“some government hack telling doctors how they must practice and telling the patient what kind of care they can have”

heheheh – walk just one mile in mrsstsimons shoes (hosp administrator)
just one, for ONE day, and you’ll SEE what the dealio is….
who the blood-sucking-for-profit criminals are…..
but my guess is, you already know,
that’s just what you were programmed to say.

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
8:50 pm

josef
Some folks can’t get it through they thick lil skulls that just cause you don’t care for A, then you must per force be for B….

Yeah, and it’s the same people who see everything in black and white, no gray issues. They skipped the last couple of steps of intellectual maturity.

“If you’re not with us, you’re against us………..”

josef

March 19th, 2012
8:53 pm

Orange12

March 19th, 2012
8:55 pm

Concur, Bush was a collassal failure, most notably, the Iraq invasion which was in my opinion the biggest blunder of any President in US history. The National deficit was nowhere near what it is now. Obama had his shot and failed. Time to give the next guy a chance. I just don’t see letting Obama keeping the keys.

Recon 0311 2533

March 19th, 2012
8:56 pm

Joe, I did research on this story but was unable to find a link to the original 60 Minutes CBS story. I did, however, find numerous stories involving the Delta Force C.O. who evidently was on that 60 Minutes interview. His stage name and the one he uses for the book he wrote is “Dalton Fury”. Fury was again the commanding officer of the unit tasked with tracking and killing OBL in the TORA BORA mountains. He commanded a Delta force of 40 personnel and a squad sized attachment of British SAS. Delta has a different mission than Army Special Forces Green Berets. The latter work with indiginant forces of trained locals, while Delta is an elite counter insurgency unit adept in “black operations”. Fury and his Delta Force team were tasked with capturing or terminating bin Laden. The excerpts I read Indicated frustration with several command impediments to the operation. He requested a reaction force from the Ranger Battalion and their command only authorized a platoon saying that the Ranger Battalion couldn’t provide a battalion sized reaction force because their primary mission was to provide command security. Fury wanted some Special Forces (Green Beret troopers) but was turned down because their command said they were only beginning their work with the Afghan militias as well as the tribesman and didn’t want Green Berets involved in a kill operation that might complicate their mission. He stated other frustrations but it sounded as though his real problem was intra Army command issues that stood in the way. I found no mention of requesting a Marine infantry battalion or any reference to the Bush administration standing in the way. His only comment about Bush that I read was “Bush would look like a hero if we do get OBL.”

JamVet

March 19th, 2012
8:58 pm

12, your claim about Obama having us on some new brink of disaster is just hogwash.

This country has backed away from the abyss. The one that your bankster heroes put us within an eyelash of.

The boys on Wall Street and K(Y) Street dropped a bomb on the American economy. And you expect everything would be a bed of roses by now had John McCain or (fill in your favortie pol here) been in the White House???

Full employment and everybody back on easy street, right? Living high off of the hog once again, like nothing ever happened.

If you do, you are living in a fantasy world

That you cons won’t even admit to the sheer magnitude of this implosion is telling. And why you have almost no credibility.

The bottom line is that you Bush apologists don’t want to admit any of it, because there is one thing and one thing only that drives all of your “arguments” – Obama Derangement Syndrome.

Until you can get past that, presuming that you can, you are never going to have an inkling of who the players were in this debacle, who was paid what to look the other way and the facts underlying what happened.

Nor how to fix the damn problem. (Which ain’t fixed.)

Orange12

March 19th, 2012
9:01 pm

ZamVet,

How do you think the US is going to pay back the money he added to our debt? And if you can answer this, when will it happen. My credibility? Please.

The Real Disgusted

March 19th, 2012
9:06 pm

some government hack telling doctors how they must practice and telling the patient what kind of care they can have

Oh, I don’t know. Some of those government hacks decide what ingredients go into the flu shots for the nation. Some of them track deadly viruses, like bird flu, checking for any transformation that would allow person-to-person transmission. They track down salmonella outbreaks. And they do it for less than $250,000 per year, without living in high-priced, gated communities. Methinks your opinion of for-profit physicians is a bit inflated. Some of them settle for work carrels at CDC, NIH, and other public health agencies, instead of fancy offices employing nurses, receptionists, and insurance clerks. And their medical degrees and training are every bit as prestigious as those earned by the physicians chasing the almighty buck.

TaxPayer

March 19th, 2012
9:07 pm

Meanwhile, Apple Inc., a US domiciled corporation, has finally decided what to do with that extra 100 billion in cash that has been burning a hole in their pocket. They’re going to start doling out a dividend of over $10.00 per year to the commoners. Just imagine what they could accomplish with another GOP tax cut. It must surely boggle the collective mind of the party faithful.

josef

March 19th, 2012
9:09 pm

SCOUT
@ 8:45

Uh-oh…not good.

Recon 0311 2533

March 19th, 2012
9:11 pm

JamVet, As you know I like you but give up on Bush. He’s on his ranch down in Texas far from involved with the issues we’re faced with today. Today, Obama stands before the American people accountable as our president. What is past, irrespective of prior presidents or congressional culpability doesn’t factor into the vote this November.

Brosephus™

March 19th, 2012
9:12 pm

frog

‘preciate it!!!

DebbieDoRight - Doing The Dew

March 19th, 2012
9:12 pm

Jam- RE: OBS (Obama Derangement Syndrome) Urban dictionary’s definition

Insane state of mind and lack of critical thinking or reasoning on issues surrounding Sen. Barack Obama’s bid for the 2008 White House

I think they need to update their website.

Jay

March 19th, 2012
9:17 pm

Hi all. Just spent all day in committee meetings at the Legislature, from tax reform to immigration to abortion.

It was illuminating, and not in a good way.

barking frog

March 19th, 2012
9:20 pm

Well Jay,
Guess you’re now
ethically challenged.

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
9:21 pm

Orange12

March 19th, 2012
9:01 pm

ZamVet,

How do you think the US is going to pay back the money he added to our debt? And if you can answer this, when will it happen. My credibility? Please.

Orange, the CBO estimates that 16.4 TRILLION dollars of American wealth vanished with the collapse of the stock market and the housing market. That’s more than the entire national debt for our entire history. So tell me what you think is the greater danger: unstable speculative markets or the deficit? (Yes, I think deficits are a problem but I think you need a little perspective here)

Orange12

March 19th, 2012
9:21 pm

JamVet

March 19th, 2012
9:21 pm

12, I do not know. I do not know if the steps these men have taken are the right ones or not.

Neither do you.

I suspect that some were and some weren’t.

You have very strong opinions about that but neither of us had ANY mastery or expertise or even any significant experience regarding these highly complicated and interrelated financial matters.

And even the supposed experts themselves have wildly varying estimations and opinions

However, for four years now, I have read a great deal on this matter. I can and have listed very detailed and specific information on what happened and who was involved.

For example, I have posted information regarding the at least eight different levels and organizations of people, both in the private and public sector, who had a hand in these legalized crimes.

I have written about the Three Principles of Capitalism and how they were all disregarded.

I have written of the people (Gretchen Morgenson, Ralph Nader, Elizabeth Warren and Ben Stein, among others) who saw pretty much exactly what was coming, before it did. I’ve also written about the abysmal Dick Cheney who said, “Don’t blame Bush, nobody saw this coming.” and the other “ostriches” in that administration.

I’ve listed numerous egregious errors that George W. Bush made in his presidency that greatly exacerbated these problems.

I’ve posted a ton of information on the bailouts and what happened there.

On the other hand, I have not seen you make the very first compelling argument, quote or post any facts, figures, data or evidence to buttress your claims.

That speaks to credibility. Or not…

JamVet

March 19th, 2012
9:26 pm

Jay, I watched Jim Galloway on GPB earlier this evening.

Illuminating, indeed…

DebbieDoRight - Doing The Dew

March 19th, 2012
9:26 pm

It was illuminating, and not in a good way.

Oh god no!! Have the republicans pushed us even further into the 13th century!?

Its like the WANT to loose the state to the Dems! The more incompetent they are the more likely the populace will be sick and tired of them and ready for a change in leadership.

Orange12

March 19th, 2012
9:27 pm

Zamvet,

The facts are there. We have a National deficit of which Obama added (I may be a little off on this) 6 trillion dollars to. Why should I think he will not keep adding to it if given another 4 years? Like I said, its time to put someone else in power. Rep or Dem, it doesn’t matter. The Dems are not going to run anybody else against Obama so it has to be a Rep.

Josef

March 19th, 2012
9:29 pm

Jay

Are they as off the chain as I think they are?

TaxPayer

March 19th, 2012
9:37 pm

I think Jay is trying to forewarn us that unless we are one of the party faithful, we will not like what the Georgia GOP has in store for us. I can see increased taxation on the poor in order to fund tax cuts for the party favored in our future, amongst other less than desirable things. Have they found a way to transfer more of the HOPE funds to their pockets yet.

Recon 0311 2533

March 19th, 2012
9:38 pm

Oh well, liberals are what they are but the good news is they only represent a small minority of the country. The bad news is, that as only a small minority, they’ve created big problems for the majority. Hopefully, after seeing the works of an intrinsically radical president the majority will take action against his tyranny in November. I’m out, y’all enjoy your evening.

JamVet

March 19th, 2012
9:38 pm

12, here is the bottom line for me.

It really doesn’t matter very much at all who wins the White House. Because the rich always get richer and the poor always get poorer. And the middle class flounders along with flat-lined wages for decade after decade after decade.

Welcome to the plutocracy.

getalife

March 19th, 2012
9:39 pm

You need a shower Jay.

TaxPayer

March 19th, 2012
9:41 pm

You need a shower Jay.

This one might call for Clorox.

We are still waiting....

March 19th, 2012
9:42 pm

“If I don’t have this done in three years, then there’s going to be a one-term proposition.” – President Barack Obama on NBC’s “Today,” February 2, 2009:

President Obama appeared on NBC’s “Today show and and made his infamous “one-term proposition” prediction:

“I will be held accountable. You know, I’ve got four years. … A year from now, I think people are gonna see that we’re starting to make some progress, but there’s still gonna be some pain out there. If I don’t this done in three years, then there’s gonna be a one-term proposition.”

stranger in a strange land

March 19th, 2012
9:42 pm

bomb Afghanistan back to the stone age….oops…they’re already there.

JKL2

March 19th, 2012
9:46 pm

orange 12- Why should I think he will not keep adding to it if given another 4 years?

I heard today that we will cross the debt ceiling in October at the current rate of spending. That could make for a fun election.

obama: solving illegal immigration by making the dollar worth a peso.

barking frog

March 19th, 2012
9:47 pm

DWTS Gladys Knight
Unbelievably good.

TaxPayer

March 19th, 2012
9:49 pm

The Atlanta Tea Party was more blunt in its assessment:

SB 448, sponsored by Senator Don Balfour in the Senate (now in the House) is an attempt at what amounts to a bailout for big money land developers who made millions off land speculation during the real estate boom, but now want to be retroactively (yes retroactively) absolved of their personal guarantees.

While millions of Georgians are paying their debts during this hard economic time, while small businesses struggle to get loans, and while thousands of Georgians’ homes are being foreclosed on, well-connected developers are seeking to be bailed out of their financial obligations…ultimately at yourexpense.

Will wonders ever cease. I have found a point of common ground with some local tea partyers.

Definition of HYPOCRISY

March 19th, 2012
9:49 pm

In March 2006, then-Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., found the notion of raising the debt ceiling quite distasteful.

“The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure,” he said. “It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. … Leadership means that ‘the buck stops here.’ Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit.”

TaxPayer

March 19th, 2012
9:52 pm

The BankSouth CEO has done slammed the Georgia GOP’s folly as well. Ouch. Georgia Republicans are the cream of the crop. Soured cream, that is.

0311/8541/5811/1811

March 19th, 2012
9:53 pm

josef:

“SCOUT
@ 8:45

Uh-oh…not good.”

Exactly. Maybe Obama knew they were coming (or already secretly there) and that’s why we have done nothing in Syria like we did in Egypt, Libya, et al.

Orange12

March 19th, 2012
9:54 pm

JKL2@9:46

Exactly

0311/8541/5811/1811

March 19th, 2012
9:55 pm

“When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An’ go to your Gawd like a soldier.”

Rudyard Kipling

Nothing much has changed.

barking frog

March 19th, 2012
9:57 pm

Inter your comments here.

JamVet

March 19th, 2012
9:59 pm

TaxPayer, it gets even better,

A coalition of conservative groups in Georgia – including the Georgia Tea Party – is ramping up pressure on Republican lawmakers to support an ethics reform bill filed Tuesday.

State Rep. Tommy Smith, R-Alma, who submitted the bill and who called for co-sponsors brought out a number of Democrats, said Julianne Thompson of the Georgia Tea Party Patriots, but none from the majority party.

“A lot of us who are Republicans felt very disappointed in the leadership,” she said. “So we joined together in a conservative alliance and wrote a letter that we placed on the desk of every legislator. We’re very serious about this.”

Orange12

March 19th, 2012
10:03 pm

Bristol Palin is expecting a phone call from President Obama. Could it be another apology sort of?

independent thinker

March 19th, 2012
10:06 pm

The Russians are laughing their behinds off at us. Walking into the same quagmire as they did when Saint Ronnie armed the terrorist thugs with every weapon he could find to kill those bad and evil commies. They warned us on the mess we were unleashing by arming and partnering with crazy religious zealots . They got out when they saw they were bleeding and hemmoroghing for no valid security gain. And their economy is doing just fine. Thank you St. Ronnie, George W. Cheney and his military industrial cronies and all the neocons who thought this would be a cake walk.

TaxPayer

March 19th, 2012
10:07 pm

Them’s some good folks down there in Alma, Jamvet.

JamVet

March 19th, 2012
10:18 pm

TP, but how sad is it that a Republican introduces this legislation and can’t even get ONE single solitary fellow GOPer to cosponsor it?

????????????

This is just more proof that these cons are completely out of control.

And to Debbie’s earlier point, they ain’t skeered. They know that their “base’ will vote for them no matter what they do…

DebbieDoRight - Doing The Dew

March 19th, 2012
10:21 pm

barking frog

March 19th, 2012
10:24 pm

It is futile for the crooks
to resist the Bookman-
Wingfield-AJC Ethics
Juggernaut.

Jm

March 19th, 2012
10:24 pm

T Boone cracks me up

Love the guy

T Boone for president :)

TaxPayer

March 19th, 2012
10:24 pm

TP, but how sad is it that a Republican introduces this legislation and can’t even get ONE single solitary fellow GOPer to cosponsor it?

It kinda makes arguments against using generalizations when referring to the collective GOP look silly given that an occassional outlier does not alter the trend. The GOP is the party of unethical immoral “my way or I’ll scorch the planet” cons. Damn! And I was only typing the nicest things I could think of to say about the lowlifes.

Jm

March 19th, 2012
10:27 pm

T Boone says the president is full of BS

Yep

TaxPayer

March 19th, 2012
10:28 pm

John McCain called Sarah Palin the c-word and he wasn’t even deliberately doing standup at the time. John likes to save his rehearsed routines for the senate floor.

DebbieDoRight - Doing The Dew

March 19th, 2012
10:29 pm

Maybe Obama knew they were coming (or already secretly there) and that’s why we have done nothing in Syria like we did in Egypt, Libya, et al.

Do you tighty righties EVER get tired of war? I thought you guys were supposedly so morally christian upstanding hyped up people sorta……

i mean didn’t Jesus say “blessed is the peacemaker”?

You guys obviously missed that sunday school lesson.

Jm

March 19th, 2012
10:30 pm

Taxpayer

How goes it?

What’s the topic a l’heure?

getalife

March 19th, 2012
10:30 pm

The tea party want ethics and no bailouts?

Unite.

Jm

March 19th, 2012
10:30 pm

Everyone is tired of war DDR

No one wants to invade Iran

Just bomb them

Jm

March 19th, 2012
10:32 pm

Getalife

Put the pipe down for a sec

What will ethics reform actually accomplish? The same dbags will be there. We need term limits more than ethics reform.

getalife

March 19th, 2012
10:36 pm

Ga got F for corruption jm.

You need more than term limits.

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
10:37 pm

What will ethics reform actually accomplish? The same dbags will be there. We need term limits more than ethics reform.

Right, what we need is a new set of dbags every few years! :roll: mittwit

Jm

March 19th, 2012
10:38 pm

Getalife

I know. I posted that earlier or yesterday silly

I’m just saying term limits would be more powerful than ethics reform

By the way

“A new analysis by the Congressional Research Service concluded that, under the law, about two-thirds of all health care in this country will be funded by the government by 2014.”

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0312/74190_Page2.html#ixzz1pcY3N0XN

Jm

March 19th, 2012
10:38 pm

Love that socialized medicine. Here it comes……

getalife

March 19th, 2012
10:39 pm

It is obvious Russia is protecting their interests.

They expressed this fact at the security council.

McLoser would have started WWIII.

Jm

March 19th, 2012
10:40 pm

When the government runs 2/3 of medicine, and prices continue to go up, will you concede government isn’t fixing the problem and is instead part of the problem?

Probably not…..

0311/8541/5811/1811

March 19th, 2012
10:41 pm

DebbieDoRight – Doing The Dew ”

“i mean didn’t Jesus say “blessed is the peacemaker”?”

A text out of context is no text.

“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.” Matt. 10:34

Evil must always be fought ………. sometimes politically, through education and sometimes physically.

The key is having the wisdom to know when and how.

0311/8541/5811/1811

March 19th, 2012
10:43 pm

DebbieDoRight – Doing The Dew :

O.K. Debbie ……… you asked for my favorite quote:

“When civilized man can no longer stand the horror of war
and refuses to fight, then he will surely be killed or enslaved
by the uncivilized who can.” Unknown

DebbieDoRight - Doing The Dew

March 19th, 2012
10:44 pm

jm i know this might be very difficult for you, but imagine what would happen if the US or Israel, would attack a (another) soverign Muslim country that did not attack us first?

can you say 10 more years of war PLUS even more american lives being lost?

Perhaps with that type of carnage they’ll (powers that be) will finally reinstate the draft instead of waging war on the backs of the economically challenged soldier.

who said rich men wage wars but its the poor man who has to actually die for them?

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
10:50 pm

Scout don’t forget Mathew 10:16

10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

10:34 does NOT tell his followers to take up the sword.

TaxPayer

March 19th, 2012
10:52 pm

Uh Oh. I see scout is back on his “but the bible tells me when and whom to kill” speel, again. Y’all have fun with him. Remind him of one of those ten commandments and such or even better ask him to reconcile his willingness to fight for the right to life of a non-living entity while simultaneously declaring himself as God’s chosen one, ready to choose who dies by the sword even if they have not striken first. Stay tuned for another exciting episode of “Who told you to turn that cheek.”

bman

March 19th, 2012
10:54 pm

I had someone who has been looking for a job tell me that he is having trouble finding work because he has bad credit. I was shown at least 8 emails that gave the job description and then concludes the ad by stating that the applicant must have good credit. No exceptions.

Has anyone ever heard of this?

DebbieDoRight - Doing The Dew

March 19th, 2012
10:56 pm

So Scout – You fine Christian you; please tell me how these biblical verses are taken out of context:

Thou Shalt Not Kill……

Love thy neighbor as thyself…..

“Put your sword back into its place; for those who live by the sword, die by the sword. Matt 26:52.

Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth… Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy… Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. Matt 5:5-9.

Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven…” Matt 18:21-22

But I say to you that hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. Luke 6:27-32

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. I John 3:15

If anyone says, I love God, but hates the brothers or sisters, he is a liar…Whoever loves God must also love the brothers and sisters. I John 3:20, 21

Doggone/GA

March 19th, 2012
10:57 pm

And here’s what happens to those swords:

“He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore”

Isaiah 2:4

getalife

March 19th, 2012
10:59 pm

Thou shall not kill.

moonbat betty

March 19th, 2012
11:00 pm

Taxpayer, keep wasting your money.

May we destroy the poppy fields on the way out of Afghan…

hard core, seek and destroy, hopefully.

Kill em all.

look out Taxpayer

getalife

March 19th, 2012
11:01 pm

Yes bman.

They check credit, background and pee.

Doggone/GA

March 19th, 2012
11:01 pm

“Has anyone ever heard of this?”

Yes

DebbieDoRight - Doing The Dew

March 19th, 2012
11:01 pm

Scout- I’m surprised your favorite quote isn’t

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Imagine. A professed Christian who’s favorite saying is about war and not about the love of Christ.

Velly Enter – Resting….. :roll:

moonbat betty

March 19th, 2012
11:02 pm

hopefully, the poppys will make it for getalife.

moonbat betty

March 19th, 2012
11:03 pm

bend over taxpayer.

bman

March 19th, 2012
11:05 pm

getalife .. .. that was silly to even say. You know better than that

DebbieDoRight - Doing The Dew

March 19th, 2012
11:07 pm

bman – that’s how they screen people now. but tell your friend to apply anyway; if they really like him it doesn’t matter. they’ll throw that prerequisite right out the window.

getalife

March 19th, 2012
11:09 pm

The Afghan Air Force carries the poppies to their destination.

bman

March 19th, 2012
11:12 pm

Debbie .. .. Thanks – I will pass that along. Even if so many people weren’t struggling, I wouldn’t understand the credit score/working combo thing at all. That sort of bothers me that employers are allowed to do that. I can’t even figure out why

DebbieDoRight - Doing The Dew

March 19th, 2012
11:13 pm

Betty: Hiya Betty!

May we destroy the poppy fields on the way out of Afghan…

Word.

hard core, seek and destroy, hopefully.

Ummmmm Right On?

Kill em all.

Ummmmmmm……………..Are you still talking about poppy fields?

getalife

March 19th, 2012
11:16 pm

Their gdp is poppies.

You would end their revenue.

The US welfare is ending.

0311/8541/5811/1811

March 19th, 2012
11:16 pm

Debbie:

You forgot these:

1) “Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruning hooks into spears. Let the weakling say, “I am strong!” Joel 3:10

2) “11 Then I saw heaven opened, and there was a white horse. Its rider is called Faithful and True, and He judges and makes war in righteousness. 12 His eyes were like a fiery flame, and many crowns[e] were on His head. He had a name written that no one knows except Himself. 13 He wore a robe stained with blood,[f] and His name is the Word of God. 14 The armies that were in heaven followed Him on white horses, wearing pure white linen. 15 A sharp[g] sword came from His mouth, so that He might strike the nations with it. He will shepherd[h] them with an iron scepter. He will also trample the winepress of the fierce anger of God, the Almighty. 16 And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh:

KING OF KINGS

AND LORD OF LORDS.” Revelation 19 (The final defeat of Satan and evil by Christ and His followers)

3) And for your further edification:

http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/qselfdefense.html

http://www.gac.20m.com/self-def.htm

Bottom line ………. it is o.k. for good to fight evil !

DebbieDoRight - Doing The Dew

March 19th, 2012
11:18 pm

Bman: That sort of bothers me that employers are allowed to do that. I can’t even figure out why

Hate to sound like a “conspiracy theorist” but I feel it’s mostly to weed out the older workforce. Someone young, with a few years removed from college really SHOULDN’T have really bad credit.

Somebody older, with children, hospital bills, mortgage, etc. is more prone to credit problems.

IMO

Doggone/GA

March 19th, 2012
11:19 pm

“I can’t even figure out why”

My best guess has always been that they do it to try to weed out people who might not be able to resist the temptation to steal from their employer. But it’s only a guess.

0311/8541/5811/1811

March 19th, 2012
11:20 pm

Speaking of cheeks:

“So He (Jesus) made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.” John 2:15

bman

March 19th, 2012
11:21 pm

debbie/doggone .. .. thanks. Just seems strange

Doggone/GA

March 19th, 2012
11:22 pm

Why am I not a bit surprised that Scout is so familiar with all the more violent parts of the bible?

DebbieDoRight - Doing The Dew

March 19th, 2012
11:23 pm

Scout: Bottom line ………. it is o.k. for good to fight evil !

Bullcrap scout.

Revealations speaks of The Lamb battling evil by calling down the angels to battle with him.

It never speaks of puny man, who is susceptible to sin, trying to battle Satan and his minions.

You gets diddly with your false interpretations Scout.

Jesus spoke of people like you – destroyers who come to destroy the word with their lies.

JamVet

March 19th, 2012
11:23 pm

That God cannot lie, is no advantage to your argument, because it is no proof that priests can not, or that the Bible does not. ~The Life and Works of Thomas Paine, Vol. 9 p. 134

Doggone/GA

March 19th, 2012
11:32 pm

DDR – what’s interesting to me about those who cannot follow Jesus without revelling in violence, is that they never seem to notice that Jesus never sent his disciples out to do battle in a violent way. He sent them in peace, to heal, to teach, to preach. He never sent them to fight.

He sent them in proverty even. “Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road” Funny, I don’t see anything in there about weapons.

0311/8541/5811/1811

March 19th, 2012
11:32 pm

Debbie:

You need to chill. I battled evil for 37 years and you paid me to do it. I will still do it if necessary.

I feel sorry for your family if someone broke into your house in the middle of the night to commit unspeakable acts and you (having the means) did nothing.

So ………….. we agree to disagree.

I will continue to fight evil (physically if necessary) and you are free to
acquiesce as the Jews did who went silently to the death camps.

Thanks for the exchange.

moonbat betty

March 19th, 2012
11:33 pm

DebbieDoRight - Doing The Dew

March 19th, 2012
11:34 pm

Moneychangers in the Temple had a reputation for dishonesty. Besides changing Roman money into Hebrew coins for offerings, they inspected animals people brought for sacrifice. They often claimed animals were unfit to sacrifice and then charged a fee to exchange them for an acceptable sacrifice. However, they sold the defective to the next person.

0311/8541/5811/1811

March 19th, 2012
11:35 pm

Doggone:

“Funny, I don’t see anything in there about weapons.”

“He said to them, “But NOW (emphasis added) if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.” Luke 22:36

DebbieDoRight - Doing The Dew

March 19th, 2012
11:37 pm

Oops! Here’s the whole post I meant to post — :oops:

So He (Jesus) made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.” John 2:15

Again you speak with only ¼ of the truth on your tongue. You forget to mention that Jesus came into the temple and saw the moneychangers defiling the temple with their blasphemy of selling petitions (sacrifices) to the populace.

Moneychangers, (aka in todays world as businessmen),in the Temple had a reputation for dishonesty. Besides changing Roman money into Hebrew coins for offerings, they inspected animals people brought for sacrifice. They often claimed animals were unfit to sacrifice and then charged a fee to exchange them for an acceptable sacrifice. However, they sold the “defective” sacrifice to the next person.

0311/8541/5811/1811

March 19th, 2012
11:37 pm

Doggone:

I would even add that this was at a time when Jews (under Roman law) were not even allowed to carry a weapon.

Hummmmm …………………….

Doggone/GA

March 19th, 2012
11:38 pm

You see Scout. You and I get different things from the bible. I reject categorically the violent words attributed to Jesus. I think they were added later by people like you who find the way of peace too difficult. By those who cannot feel safe unless they are surrounded by the fear of others.

I prefer the words of the Prince of Peace. Not the words of the princes of fear.

0311/8541/5811/1811

March 19th, 2012
11:38 pm

Debbie:

So …………………. ?

They were involved only in evil “fraud” ………. yet He physically drive them out !!!

moonbat betty

March 19th, 2012
11:40 pm

0311, unfortunately, I have no problem offing some ide planting pos. F them – you reap what you sew.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLBpLz5ELPI

DebbieDoRight - Doing The Dew

March 19th, 2012
11:41 pm

DogGone: DDR – what’s interesting to me about those who cannot follow Jesus without revelling in violence, is that they never seem to notice that Jesus never sent his disciples out to do battle in a violent way. He sent them in peace, to heal, to teach, to preach. He never sent them to fight

You’re right — it seems like the ones who want to “pray on the corners for the populace to hear and see” are always the very “least” of christians. While the ones who want to pray in private and serve in private are truly the real christians.

thanks for reminding me of that! I’m gonna put that into my “save” for when I get more of pretend christians on some of these blogs pounding the drums of war.

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
11:41 pm

But Scout, what happens when the fighters of evil are actually evil themselves as in the inquisition? That’s the danger of your view.

Doggone/GA

March 19th, 2012
11:42 pm

“He physically drive them out !!!”

yes, HE did. He didn’t send his follower or disciples to do it.

And now, it’s a LOT later than I realized and I’ve got to hit the hay. Night all.

0311/8541/5811/1811

March 19th, 2012
11:43 pm

Doggone/GA:

Ah …………… someone who disregards a passage they don’t like. Now I understand. Thank you.

II Timorth 3:16 “ALL (emphasis added) Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.”

0311/8541/5811/1811

March 19th, 2012
11:45 pm

Don’t Forget :

Then you fight that as required.

Or would you march silently off to the death camps ?

getalife

March 19th, 2012
11:46 pm

The First Lady is on Letterman.

getalife

March 19th, 2012
11:47 pm

The people that scout thinks are evil are Muslims Latinos, women, college, oh the list is just too long.

moonbat betty

March 19th, 2012
11:49 pm

getalife gets scraped off the floor…

moonbat betty

March 19th, 2012
11:51 pm

getalife is evil

0311/8541/5811/1811

March 19th, 2012
11:52 pm

getalife:

How about:

Islamic terrorists, pedophiles, serial killers, rapists and Auburn fans.

Nite all !!!

moonbat betty

March 19th, 2012
11:53 pm

“Islamic terrorists, pedophiles, serial killers, rapists and Auburn fans.”

WAR EAGLE!

moonbat betty

March 19th, 2012
11:54 pm

Don't Forget

March 19th, 2012
11:57 pm

No Scout, you miss my point. Some things are clearly evil and shold be opposed by all. Others are less clear. You’ve mentioned the nazi camps and I agree with you completely that that was evil. What I’m left wondering is what else might fit the definition of evil for some people and how they might fight it. The inquisition is my example of “evil fighters” who are actually the real ones themselves. History shows us that evil often wears religion as a cloak.

DebbieDoRight - Doing The Dew

March 19th, 2012
11:58 pm

I feel sorry for your family if someone broke into your house in the middle of the night to commit unspeakable acts and you (having the means) did nothing. So ………….. we agree to disagree.

I’m sorry – you are confusing me with YOU. I never professed to be a Christian; as you have on countless occasions. When I go to my maker I won’t have to live down a lie that I told in life; that will NOT be my sin.

I will continue to fight evil (physically if necessary) and you are free to acquiesce as the Jews did who went silently to the death camps.

If you are the Son of God, come down from the cross.” 41 So also the chief priests, with the scribes and elders, mocked him, saying, 42 “He saved others; he cannot save himself. He is the King of Israel; let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him. For he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’” 44 And the robbers who were crucified with him also reviled him in the same way.

Thanks for the exchange.

You’re welcome.

DebbieDoRight - Doing The Dew

March 20th, 2012
12:01 am

Nite all — I’m off to bed myself. Another long day ahead.

moonbat betty

March 20th, 2012
12:05 am

DebbieDoRight - Doing The Dew

March 20th, 2012
12:07 am

No Scout, you miss my point

He not only missed it, he couldn’t find it if you put it into his hands.

Reminds me of that scripture, “Matthew 7:21-27 :

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

James

March 20th, 2012
12:12 am

“When your best argument for sustaining a decade-long war is “what is the alternative?”, I would suggest that your policy is strategically and morally bankrupt.”

This from the same guy who said in his support of Obama’s troop buildup in 2009:

“So we’ll see what President Obama has to say about the matter. From what I can gather, he wants to give it a good shot — another 30,000 troops, which when combined to troops already committed amounts to a doubling of our manpower under his presidency — but he also wants to make it clear that it is a commitment with limits in time and manpower.

It’s the kind of approach that pleases nobody, but I can’t honestly pretend to offer a better one.”

Typical Bookman hypocrisy.

James

March 20th, 2012
12:18 am

In regards to Bookman’s predictable and tired swipe at Bush:

Why on earth does Bookman think that the outcome in Afghanistan would have been any different if we had not “diverted manpower, resources and attention” towards Iraq? There is plenty of manpower, resources, and attention diverted towards Afghanistan now and the results are the same.

The bottom line is that Bush was right to limit the troop levels and goals in Afghanistan to what was required to keep AQ from reforming there. It is the braying critics of Bush like Bookman and Obama who were so so desperate to triple the troop levels in Afghanistan and expanding the mission to nation building.

Bookman and Obama are the neocons when it comes to Afghanistan. Bush was the realist.

independent thinker

March 20th, 2012
12:30 am

Justice for Trayvon Martin- legalized lynching courtesy of the NRA. and “stand your ground laws”. when is Jay going to cover that travesty? Stand your ground laws in this state and Florida allow a racist psycho to legally kill a Black kid who threatens the NRA member who feels “threatened” by a bag of Skittles and a soda can. How many legislators in Georgia got NRA money for that piece of garbage?. what other pro NRA crap is being forced through the legislature this year? Guns for elementary school kids who feel bullied or threatened?

JKL2

March 20th, 2012
1:11 am

scout- Islamic terrorists, pedophiles, serial killers, rapists

Why are you against the target Democrat voting base? You know those felons deserve the right to vote…

stands for decibels

March 20th, 2012
6:01 am

Mornin’.

in case anyone missed the theological discussion upthread, here’s an executive summary.

stands for decibels

March 20th, 2012
6:03 am

You know those felons deserve the right to vote…

Since the issue was raised–I’d love to hear someone make the case for permanently disenfranchising ex-felons who have served their time. (it never made any sense to me.)

Joel Edge

March 20th, 2012
6:20 am

“The initial rush of patriotism after 9/11 had faded.”
Really, Jay?

Normal, Plain and Simple

March 20th, 2012
6:24 am

Good mornin’ all y’all…

To start with, or as my English Teacher Mother would have me say…with which to start…

http://news.icanhascheezburger.com/2012/03/19/political-pictures-rick-santorum-safe-speech/

Normal, Plain and Simple

March 20th, 2012
6:25 am

Normal, Plain and Simple

March 20th, 2012
6:26 am

Normal, Plain and Simple

March 20th, 2012
6:28 am

independent thinker

March 20th, 2012
7:14 am

Justice for Trayvon Martin- legalized lynching courtesy of the NRA. and “stand your ground laws”. when is Jay going to cover that travesty? Stand your ground laws in this state and Florida allow a racist psycho to legally kill a Black kid who threatens the NRA member who feels “threatened” by a bag of Skittles and a soda can. How many legislators in Georgia got NRA money for that piece of garbage?. what other pro NRA crap is being forced through the legislature this year? Guns for elementary school kids who feel bullied or threatened?

Normal, Plain and Simple

March 20th, 2012
7:33 am

There is really nothing new here. It’s been well known that this current group of GOP tea drinkers don’t know squat about economics, or balanced budgets, but they do know how to enrich their friends and themselves. They also know that it is in the best interests of their friends to have a lower class of citizen slaves, who will have to work for what’s given them and buy from the company stores. A nationwide slave state will be the norm probably based on the old West Virginia coal mines model. God help us if that happens.

willydoit?

March 20th, 2012
11:00 pm

F- the middle east! Their oil is too expensive now anyway.
Bring home the troops and nuke the next nation from there that messes with us!
No one has to die….but THEM!!

Barbara in the Woods

March 22nd, 2012
9:46 am

N-GA – our short incursions into Panama and Grenada can’t be compared to our ten year long incursions into Iraq and Afghanistan. Even Iraq I took less time and we got the heck out of there, pronto.