The heartlessness of Ga. anti-abortion bill
NOTE: This is published as the electronic version of today’s AJC column. Portions of this post have appeared earlier on this blog.
Imagine being a happily pregnant couple, 20 weeks along, when things go tragically amiss. Tests reveal that if carried to term, your child will be born without a skull, or perhaps without functioning lungs, which means that upon birth it will begin to die immediately of asphyxiation, with no hope of saving it.
Do you continue the pregnancy, knowing that the child has no chance of survival and that in many cases its “life” will at best consist of a few short hours of intense agony? Or do you end the pregnancy in the best interests of all involved, including that of the doomed fetus?
Some parents, drawing upon their faith and moral precepts, will continue the pregnancy to its tragic end. Others, drawing on their own equally sincere principles, will intervene. It is not a choice that any of us would want to make, and under House Bill 954, approved this week by a House committee, we would not have to. Because if the bill passes, as seems likely, Georgia legislators will have made that decision for every mother in the state.
Under the bill, the legal window in which abortions can be performed in Georgia would shrink from 26 to 20 weeks. Supporters justify the change by claiming that after 20 weeks, fetuses are capable of feeling pain and thus need to be protected, regardless of viability.
There are two major problems here:
1. That legislative threshold of 20 weeks contradicts the overwhelming consensus of the scientific and medical community, which holds that as a fetus develops, the neural connections needed to feel pain do not occur until 28 or 29 weeks. The pain argument is being used to advance an agenda, not to respond to science.
2. The change will do nothing to affect the vast majority of abortions, which is the real target of its sponsors. According to the Guttmacher Institute, 89 percent of abortions are performed in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, long before the proposed law would take effect.
Many of the small fraction of abortions that occur after the proposed 20-week deadline involve what are called “medically futile pregnancies” such as those described above.
As a prominent Atlanta obstetrician told me this week, consider a woman who at 20 weeks discovers that her fetus suffers from anencephaly, which means it’s missing part of its head. The goal of his practice is to see high-risk pregnancies through to a healthy, successful live birth, but sometimes that just isn’t possible.
“The fetus has no skull,” he explained. “I don’t think many of us walk around without a skull. It is not going to survive no matter what you do. We tell the mother what we found, and we let her go through full counseling, grief counseling. And at the end of that, we give her the option of carrying that pregnancy or not.”
Under HB 954, that option would no longer be available.
That fetus will be carried to full term, under the false excuse of sparing it pain, and the result will be a baby “condemned to writhe in agony” as it dies shortly after birth.
(As a condition of the interview, the doctor asked not to be named. He has been advised not to speak publicly out of fear for his personal safety and threats of economic boycott.)
The bill is also certain to force abortions that otherwise will not have occurred, he said.
“I saw a couple at 21 or 22 weeks. They didn’t have health insurance until then because he was transferring jobs, so they hadn’t had the screening. When they came to see me, they were distraught. The fetus had a heart defect, what turned out to have been a fixable heart defect. But we didn’t know that for sure. We had to go through amniocentesis, which takes a week. That brings us up to 22 and a half weeks. Then we had to counsel this family and convince them that this heart defect was fixable. Because we had the time, we were able to walk them through the process and they didn’t terminate.
“If I had seen them at 19 weeks and four days, and this new law gave them just three days to decide, they would have terminated that pregnancy. We told the Legislature that, but these legislators think that’s not going to happen.
“It’s going to happen.”
In more than five hours of hearings this month, legislators have been made aware of these consequences, but they made no substantive changes to the bill.
“From my standpoint, if they wanted to cut off elective terminations — the woman who just decides at 22 weeks, I don’t want this baby — I could live with that,” the doctor told me. “But let the woman who has a complication make rational decisions.”
– Jay Bookman
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709 comments Add your comment
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 29th, 2012
3:02 pm
Should she be forced to have a baby and care for it. I don’t think so.
According to the “pro life”, the rape and baby were “god’s will”.
Ernest T. Bass
February 29th, 2012
3:03 pm
Peadawg’s post because he didn’t say anything even remotely like that.
He didnt remotely say it. He said exactly that. Go back and read it.
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 29th, 2012
3:04 pm
I think we should all congratulate ourselves on self-moderation for this topic considering our host is being held against his will in a government building somewhere.
TaxPayer
February 29th, 2012
3:04 pm
What about the case of the lady that gets raped and then kills the rapist and then discovers that he got her pregnant. Republicans must surely be torn between their two most favorite pasttimes in this case — controlling women’s bodies and killing people.
JohnnyReb
February 29th, 2012
3:05 pm
Clearly, the Left if out of debate points on this subject. When they start claiming Conservatives are not “pro life” because if we were, we would not be for capital punishment, then you know they have exhausted their talking points.
Next thing you know, they will be claiming all those Red states are really Blue.
Bye for now.
Peadawg
February 29th, 2012
3:06 pm
“He didnt remotely say it. He said exactly that. Go back and read it.”
When did I say this? Is someone namejacking?
Where did “Peadawg” mention anything about 20 years in the future?
Ernest T. Bass
February 29th, 2012
3:06 pm
Either way this is just another issue the republican conservatives are way out of touch on.
Liberals and Democrats look forward and try to use Reason and Science.
Conservatives look backwards towards darkness and superstition.
I mean cmon, They believe in a guy who lives in the clouds and grants wishes.
I
Normal
February 29th, 2012
3:08 pm
Thulsa,
The Abortion Issue is not as hard as you make it. If you really want to lower the abortion rate, then have social plans to have a contraceptive program in place making them readily available for those who want them.
Barring that have social programs in place to ensure that the child in question is well cared for, educated and given every chance in life available. It’s really very simple. But then, you really have to care enough about that fetus to be willing to let the Government star those programs. If it were I, I would ensure that both programs were readily available…
TaxPayer
February 29th, 2012
3:08 pm
Republicans do love to dramatize their exit, stage rights.
Ernest T. Bass
February 29th, 2012
3:09 pm
Where did “Peadawg” mention anything about 20 years in the future?
You didn’t say 20 years but you were implying it.
Thulsa Doom
February 29th, 2012
3:09 pm
Joe Hussein Mama
“If a woman or couple don’t believe that they could — for whatever reason — provide for a child, then why should she carry a fetus to term?”
So now you’ve simply cheapened human life and reduced it to a question of economics. Why didn’t you just come out and say it like this- “What if a woman just wants to have an abortion because this pregnancy is at an *inconvenient* time in her life and she just plain doesn’t want to deal with it”? The truth is much easier to deal with and the cold, hard truth of the matter is that we grant abortions to women because the pregnancy is usually just a major inconvenience- lets leave out rape, incest, etc for now. And of course the cost factor of raising a child. Never mind that millions of women, many of them unemployed, already receive lots of help for their children in the form of section 8 housing, food stamps, medicaid, and various other forms of assistance that we’ve debated ad nauseum. Not to mention any help from family, the father, etc. And ya’ll leave out the hypothetical “Well what if she’s all alone in the world and has nooooo help from any family or anyone”. Cry me that river later on.
“You might argue that the child could be adopted, but there’s no guarantee of that. Each year, there are around 100K-150K adoptable children who, for whatever reason, don’t get adopted.”
Yes. And the waiting list right now is wayyyy long. But as we all already know women get plenty of help from the govt to care for their children. Millions do and we all know this so you’re point about being able to care for them is largely irrelevant.
“Given that, how is it responsible to carry a fetus to term under those circumstances, if you don’t believe you can adequately provide for a child?”
As I’ve said there are plenty of govt programs to help provide for the child. And did you ever consider possibly that the shiftless father could help out? Or mother, father, grandparents, sisters, brothers, or mothers, fathers, grandparents, siblings of the father???
Or in liberal world is the child then the responsibility of everyone else to raise? Doesn’t really matter if it is or isn’t anyway since we already provide ample aid to single mothers.
But at least I know where you and other liberals are coming from Joe Mama. Its all just a matter of “convenience” and economics.
And the convenience of just not wanting to deal with an unplanned child is really at the heart of this whole thing. That’s what this is really all about.
YOUR party SUCKS! But MINE is GRRRRRREAT! (formerly That Black Guy)
February 29th, 2012
3:10 pm
Doggone/GA
February 29th, 2012
2:16 pm
“So, if a child in utero is not “human”, what is it??”
It is a fetus, not a child.
__________________________________________________________________________
And 4 hours later I still havent seen where you corrected Jay for saying it.
“Tests reveal that if carried to term, your child will be born without a skull”
“Do you continue the pregnancy, knowing that the child has no chance of survival”
Is it because he’s not a “con”?
“
Ernest T. Bass
February 29th, 2012
3:10 pm
Next thing you know, they will be claiming all those Red states are really Blue.
Pretty soon they will only be a few red states.
And all of them in the backwoods hillbilly south where people are mostly uneducated.
Ernest T. Bass
February 29th, 2012
3:13 pm
And the convenience of just not wanting to deal with an unplanned child is really at the heart of this whole thing. That’s what this is really all about.
That maybe the dumbest post ever on this board and that’s saying something.
Go back and read Jays article again.
THAT’S WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT
AmVet - Son of a union thug
February 29th, 2012
3:13 pm
Only in America can you be pro-death penalty, pro-war, pro-unmanned drone bombs, pro-nuclear weapons, pro-guns, pro-torture, pro-land mines, and still call yourself ‘pro-life. ’ ~Thomas Jefferson
You Republicans need to call yourselves what they really are, anti-abortion.
Calling yourselves pro-life is a friggin’ joke.
It matters not because you are never, ever, ever, ever gonna get your way on this one.
We had it once in this country and it was a complete debacle. An idiotic travesty. And you want to bring it back again?
Hello? Einstein had something to say about you vis a vis trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
Go back to the 17th century where you belong…
Peadawg
February 29th, 2012
3:13 pm
Nothing in my posts had ANYTHING to do with 20 years down the road.
Like I said…unless there’s a post I’m missing and someone is namejacking.
(ir)Rational
February 29th, 2012
3:14 pm
Thulsa – Okay, fine, if no one else wants to say it, I will. If a woman gets pregnant at an inconvenient time in her life, I feel that it is fine if she decides she wants to have an abortion. The law does to. Convenience isn’t the only reason, and it isn’t at the heart of it, but CHOICE is. As a conservative, you would think you would understand the concept of keeping government out of one more aspect of your life. Guess not. Are you, as you seem to be, arguing for more government, and more people to be on welfare?
Doggone/GA
February 29th, 2012
3:15 pm
“So now the goalpost has just been moved to “the stage of life”, you know, that arbitrary and capricious point that we feel less guilty about”
Nope, not moving anything. To me that is the definition between an abortion and an induced delivery.
stands for decibels
February 29th, 2012
3:15 pm
>>Should she be forced to have a baby and care for it. I don’t think so.
>According to the “pro life”, the rape and baby were “god’s will”.
The baby is a GIFT from God, per Rick Santorum, actual viable Republican Presidential candidate.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
February 29th, 2012
3:16 pm
…and someone is namejacking.
I guess it takes a name-jacker to know a name-jacker.
Just sayin’.
Thulsa Doom
February 29th, 2012
3:16 pm
Normal,
I’ve no problem with contraceptives. Condoms are 50cents. If anyone here is afraid of knocking someone up tonight then drop by and I’ll hand ya 50 cents for the condom.
Just kidding but Seriously though contraceptives are available all day long. Ya just have to pay for them. But then again I see your point. Given our culture and the steadily declining number of people who want to actually have to pay for something they use its no wonder that we are now talking about govt programs- in other words cost shifting from the worthless, lazy people who don’t want to pay for their own contraceptives to everyone else paying for them.
Peadawg
February 29th, 2012
3:17 pm
There’s my resident leg-humper. Sup Kam? How’s your squirrels doing?
Creep.
Normal
February 29th, 2012
3:17 pm
Earnest T. Bass,
Goota say I like your nom de blog…I remember him as a pain in the carcass to the establishment and a damned good rock thrower…as are you sir, as are you.
Keep up the good work….
josef
February 29th, 2012
3:17 pm
TAXI
If it doesn’t rain, it’ll be a long dry spell.
(ir)Rational
February 29th, 2012
3:18 pm
Thulsa – Are condoms or any other form of birth control (except abstinence) 100% effective?
Oscar
February 29th, 2012
3:18 pm
actual viable Republican Presidential candidate.
_______
Actual, yes. Viable, no.
Mad Max
February 29th, 2012
3:18 pm
It’s amazing that we always trot out the .05% (rape, incest, threat to mothers life, etc.) to sanctify whatever issue is at hand, in this case the killing of unborn children. I believe we all have compassion for that .05%, it’s the 99.95% that have no sense of responsibility and regard for their fellow citizens, or in this case the sanctity of human life that I have issues with. Maybe the 95.95% should be forced to hold the corpse in their hands before they leave the clinic.
Peadawg
February 29th, 2012
3:18 pm
“a damned good rock thrower” – There’s a difference between rock throwing and flat-out lying, which Earnest/Bob did.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
February 29th, 2012
3:19 pm
Sup Kam?
Just sittin’ here watching you whine.
Same as yesterday, same as tomorrow.
Brosephus™ -
February 29th, 2012
3:19 pm
“Man is the only creature that fights to get out of the womb only to spend the rest of his life trying to get back into it.”
–Thomas Jefferson
Oscar
February 29th, 2012
3:20 pm
ad Max
_____
The house bill has no exception for the five per cent you mentioned.
Thulsa Doom
February 29th, 2012
3:20 pm
(ir)Rational, no they are not. Sorry. You win this one.
Peadawg
February 29th, 2012
3:21 pm
“Just sittin’ here watching you whine.”
Gross.
Stalk someone else you creep. I’m married.
Mad Max
February 29th, 2012
3:21 pm
Oscar, so rather than fix the bill, we allow wholesale murder.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 29th, 2012
3:21 pm
Doom — “So now you’ve simply cheapened human life and reduced it to a question of economics.”
Not at all. People’s reasons for abortion are their own.
“Why didn’t you just come out and say it like this- “What if a woman just wants to have an abortion because this pregnancy is at an *inconvenient* time in her life and she just plain doesn’t want to deal with it”?
Because that’s not the question I wanted to ask.
“The truth is much easier to deal with and the cold, hard truth of the matter is”
If you don’t want to answer my question, Doom, just say so.
“Yes. And the waiting list right now is wayyyy long. But as we all already know women get plenty of help from the govt to care for their children. Millions do and we all know this so you’re point about being able to care for them is largely irrelevant.”
Rejected. We both know that your party is pressing for deep cuts to social programs and that both parties are looking to cut the budget. Given that, adequate governmental support is uncertain at best.
“As I’ve said there are plenty of govt programs to help provide for the child. And did you ever consider possibly that the shiftless father could help out?”
I already included the ’shiftless father’ in my previous question, Doom. Please pay closer attention.
“Or mother, father, grandparents, sisters, brothers, or mothers, fathers, grandparents, siblings of the father???”
There’s no legal obligation on the part of any of those people to support a woman or couple with an unplanned child and limited means. Maybe some of those people can and maybe some can’t. But you can’t count on that, and unless you’re going to advocate *compelling* them to help, then again, support from this quarter is uncertain at best.
“Or in liberal world is the child then the responsibility of everyone else to raise? Doesn’t really matter if it is or isn’t anyway since we already provide ample aid to single mothers.”
Again, rejected. See above.
“But at least I know where you and other liberals are coming from Joe Mama. Its all just a matter of “convenience” and economics.”
Once again, those are your words, not mine.
“And the convenience of just not wanting to deal with an unplanned child is really at the heart of this whole thing. That’s what this is really all about.”
If you say so. Of course, none of us over here said that, and I don’t think any of us over here believe it, either. That said, I don’t think that will dissuade you from engaging in your usual fabulism.
Oscar
February 29th, 2012
3:22 pm
d Max
——–
Didn’t see any comment offering to fix the bill. My question is, why didn’t the original bill have the exception.
YOUR party SUCKS! But MINE is GRRRRRREAT! (formerly That Black Guy)
February 29th, 2012
3:23 pm
josef, do you know the origin of the term “thug”?
I had been told it came from a group of criminals in India (i believe) centuries ago. They would rob travelers and kill the women and rape the men. I think they were called “Thuggies (sp)”
Joe Hussein Mama
February 29th, 2012
3:23 pm
(ir)Rational — “Are you, as you seem to be, arguing for more government, and more people to be on welfare?”
I was hoping someone would ask him that.
Maybe Doom will go pro-choice if we cut social services deeply enough.
Thulsa Doom
February 29th, 2012
3:23 pm
Irrational,
Well thank you for the refreshing honesty in admitting that we really want abortion for convenience.
“As a conservative, you would think you would understand the concept of keeping government out of one more aspect of your life. Guess not.”
Nope. You are confusing the central question of the moral argument of whether or not abortion is the killing of human life with freedom. The 2 have nothing to do with each other.
Does the govt interfere with my freedom of going out and randomly killing someone? Well of course it does. Reason being that I would be going out and taking a human life.
“Are you, as you seem to be, arguing for more government, and more people to be on welfare?”
So once again you, like Joe Mama have cheapened human life to the point of economics and arguing “Do we really want to pay the cost of raising these unwanted kids”? Well at least I now know where you compassionate liberals stand. And btw who says we have to pay to raise other kids? We do it anyway via all the social programs I mentioned previously such as food stamps, medicaid, etc. But is there anything wrong with expecting the mother, the father, the parents, grandparents, siblings, extended family, etc. to actually help in raising their child?
(ir)Rational
February 29th, 2012
3:24 pm
Thulsa – So, if I’m being responsible, and using a condom, and it doesn’t work. Why should I, or my partner, be saddled with the responsibility of a child we were obviously trying to avoid, just because your morals dictate that an action I’m engaging in is wrong?
AmVet - Son of a union thug
February 29th, 2012
3:24 pm
If men could get pregnant, I assure you virtually every one of these pro-lifer male types would be screaming at the top of his lungs that the government has NO BUSINESS telling them what to do!!!
For them this is completely about control.
And the fact that it is over women makes it doubly delicious for them.
Too _______ bad. They had their run and it is over.
And it ain’t coming back.
Soothsayer
February 29th, 2012
3:24 pm
Just damn! Poor ol’ Davy Jones died! Now that’s getting close to home. He’s not that much older than me.
Anyway, this whole abortion thing impresses me as simply people trying to meddle in other people’s lives. I say if you’re against abortion, then don’t have an abortion. But why try to enforce your beliefs on others?
People are going to have abortions, legal or not. If not here, then in Mexico or Canada or Jamaica or somewhere.
How much better the World would be if everyone simply minded their own business and not worry about what other people are doing!
By the way, tired of high gas prices? Read this article.
Brosephus™ -
February 29th, 2012
3:24 pm
That Guy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee
Mad Max
February 29th, 2012
3:25 pm
Oscar, probably because it was written in a hurry without enough forethought like the rest of the garbage our politicians come up with.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 29th, 2012
3:25 pm
Mad Max — “Maybe the 95.95% should be forced to hold the corpse in their hands before they leave the clinic.”
Smaller government FAIL.
Doggone/GA
February 29th, 2012
3:25 pm
“And 4 hours later I still havent seen where you corrected Jay for saying it”
Ummm, once it’s born it IS a child. And science or no science, to the Mother it IS her “child” since teh pregnancy was intended. That is one of the ways nature works to ensure the Mother will care for and raise the CHILD once it’s BORN.
Jm
February 29th, 2012
3:26 pm
How’s the crazy house today?
Adam
February 29th, 2012
3:27 pm
AmVet: For them this is completely about control.
Exactly. Control and PUNISHMENT.
Thulsa Doom
February 29th, 2012
3:27 pm
“Maybe Doom will go pro-choice if we cut social services deeply enough.”
And maybe we can gradually get rid of the nanny state to the point of where people do what they have historically done throughout human history- take care of their own kids with us providing a social safety net in instances where they cannot.
TaxPayer
February 29th, 2012
3:27 pm
Well, it’s not like the Republicans have any bad economic news to turn to in order to drum up support from their base. But the desperation on their part is really starting to take its toll. Do they think that women will sit this one out and not turn on them like they did with Komen and with the Catholic Church. Whatever. Go for it.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 29th, 2012
3:28 pm
Doom — “So once again you, like Joe Mama have cheapened human life to the point of economics”
I neither said it nor thought it.
“But is there anything wrong with expecting the mother, the father, the parents, grandparents, siblings, extended family, etc. to actually help in raising their child?”
Situation: Your cousin, a 17-year-old high school dropout, gets pregnant. Her extended family is unable to help her raise her child. Should the government *compel you* to help if you have the means?
Thulsa Doom
February 29th, 2012
3:29 pm
Jm,
Well jm they are back to saying all kinds of crazy crap today. One of them even said a fetus isn’t human until its birthed and the umbilical cord is cut. I guess that means abortion should now apply to 8 3/4 month fetuses. That’s how effing crazy they are today.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 29th, 2012
3:30 pm
Doom — “where people do what they have historically done throughout human history- take care of their own kids with us providing a social safety net in instances where they cannot.”
Ah, the tired old ‘tradition’ argument. The same one used to keep women and minorities from voting, among other things.
Brosephus™ -
February 29th, 2012
3:30 pm
I guess that means abortion should now apply to 8 3/4 month fetuses.
That’s what you guessed, but I have not read anything to that effect other than your post. Debates are much better without tossing strawmen into them for sheer effect.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 29th, 2012
3:31 pm
Doom — “Well jm they are back to saying all kinds of crazy crap today. One of them even said a fetus isn’t human until its birthed and the umbilical cord is cut. I guess that means abortion should now apply to 8 3/4 month fetuses.”
Once again, your words, not mine.
(ir)Rational
February 29th, 2012
3:33 pm
Thulsa – See, here is the problem I’m having with you right now. And I believe we had this conversation yesterday, I am not, nor have I ever been a liberal. I don’t claim to have compassion for anything besides myself and my wife, and dogs in general. I come at this issue from a strictly, and truly, conservative viewpoint. My judgement isn’t clouded by the will of a god that may or may not exist, nor is it clouded by man’s religion. Now, to move on to arguing the rest of what you’ve said.
It isn’t a moral issue, except with you. For me, it is a government and freedom from government issue. I’m not confusing the central question of the moral argument as you seem to think, because, as I just stated, there is no moral argument with me. You don’t have a “right” to go out and take someone else’s life. You have a right to control what happens to your life, or to try, and if a woman is pregnant, it is her body and her life.
I’m not cheapening human life, I’m asking you a direct question based upon your argument. You seem to be arguing that it is perfectly fine to force someone to carry a child they do not want, and cannot care for, simply because there are government programs that will help to take care of them if they are forced to carry that child full term. I’m not arguing about the economics of it, I’m asking you, based off your arguments, are you advocating for more government? No one has said there is anything wrong with the extended family helping raise the child, but there is no obligation to, and I’m not sure it is “right” to expect someone to do something, possibly against their will to fulfill your moral obligations.
saywhat?
February 29th, 2012
3:33 pm
“It’s amazing that we always trot out the .05% (rape, incest, threat to mothers life, etc.) to sanctify whatever issue is at hand, in this case the killing of unborn children. I believe we all have compassion for that .05%, it’s the 99.95% that have no sense of responsibility and regard for their fellow citizens, or in this case the sanctity of human life that I have issues with. Maybe the 95.95% should be forced to hold the corpse in their hands before they leave the clinic.”
_________________________________________________________________
Or maybe the 99.95% could just tell you to suck it. I’d be o.k. with that.
Normal
February 29th, 2012
3:35 pm
Bro’
And the reason why it is so hard to wean a baby boy off the breast is because they instinctively know it will be another sixteen years before they are that close again…
(ir)Rational
February 29th, 2012
3:36 pm
Normal – Screen cleaner please.
(ir)Rational
February 29th, 2012
3:37 pm
JHM – It is interesting how Thulsa makes an argument on one page, and then on the next, it becomes yours or mine or some other “liberal’s” argument in an attempt to make us look crazy.
Brosephus™ -
February 29th, 2012
3:38 pm
Normal
Thulsa Doom
February 29th, 2012
3:38 pm
Joe Hussein Mama
February 29th, 2012
3:28 pm
Doom — “So once again you, like Joe Mama have cheapened human life to the point of economics”
I neither said it nor thought it.- Joe mama
Joe mama,
Well then you sure as hell implied it or strongly suggested it when you said for whatever reason what if a woman just doesn’t want to keep a child or because she doesn’t feel she can provide for it.
“Your cousin, a 17-year-old high school dropout, gets pregnant. Her extended family is unable to help her raise her child. Should the government *compel you* to help if you have the means?”
And right on freaking cue! Boom! Just as Doomy predicted earlier you are going to start going into hypotheticals about the few young women about them who have *nobody* in the whole freaking world to help them. So now you’re saying that the entire extended family can’t help at all. Nobody? They are all worthless? All of them? Since its a hypothetical and you used my cousin then I will take her in and help. And the father will help support the child or go to jail for nonchild support. Doomy will make damn sure of that. You guys got an excuse and a damn hypothetical for everything don’tcha. In any event should the state feel compelled to help out you ask? Because we are a compassionate society we should and do provide a basic safety net is my answer. But what I also believe is that if single women don’t make fathers pay for their kids- and this is a problem specifically because of our nanny state- then the state should go after the father for monies to be garnished from his paycheck to help pay for the expenses of the state in helping the mother care for the child.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 29th, 2012
3:39 pm
(ir)Rational — “I am not, nor have I ever been a liberal. I don’t claim to have compassion for anything besides myself and my wife, and dogs in general. I come at this issue from a strictly, and truly, conservative viewpoint. My judgement isn’t clouded by the will of a god that may or may not exist, nor is it clouded by man’s religion.”
You are where I was about 10-12 years ago. I’m not saying you’ll become a Democrat, as I did, but I foresee you moving away from the GOP and in some other direction in the future. Maybe you’ll throw your lot in with the Libertarians. Perhaps you’ll find a different party that you feel more comfortable with. Then again, perhaps you’ll throw up your hands in frustration and become altogether apolitical. Either way, I don’t think you’ll be a Republican for much longer.
I was going to quote some bits of The Empire Strikes Back about Luke’s conversion to the Dark Side at the hands of Darth Vader and the Emperor, but I figured Doom would just run with that.
(ir)Rational
February 29th, 2012
3:39 pm
Oh yeah, Normal, speak for yourself. I started earlier than 16.
Peadawg
February 29th, 2012
3:39 pm
Normal
February 29th, 2012
3:35 pm
Epic. Just…epic.
josef
February 29th, 2012
3:39 pm
FORMAL BLACK GUY
That pretty much sums it up…they had a religious bent to validate their criminal activities…
TaxPayer
February 29th, 2012
3:40 pm
josef,
Do you feel at least somewhat relieved that the Republicans have chosen to focus on their so-called “pro-life” mantra instead of DADT or DOMA, etc. A little breathing room perhaps.
AmVet - Son of a union thug
February 29th, 2012
3:40 pm
Romney headed Wednesday to Ohio, a major Super Tuesday state, where he said at a Toledo event that Republicans need a candidate from outside the Washington culture of President Barack Obama and the other Republican challengers.
Especially given the tremendous success that the last Republican president “from outside of the Washington culture” was, huh, Flip?
Your problem is that you think everyone is as forgetful and gullible as is the GOP’s “base”.
I’ve got real bad news for ya, it is gonna take a LONG time for this nation to forget the disastrous results left behind by the (W)orst ever…
Woman Voter
February 29th, 2012
3:40 pm
When it comes to elections, we CAN make a difference……WE do vote too!!! Shout out to all the women!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuBRwhomv7w
Adam
February 29th, 2012
3:41 pm
Thulsa: And maybe we can gradually get rid of the nanny state to the point of where people do what they have historically done throughout human history- take care of their own kids with us providing a social safety net in instances where they cannot.
Good. Let’s start with the REAL producers going Galt
Jm
February 29th, 2012
3:42 pm
Doom
Liberals are loco
That’s all one can say
They’re worse when mental masturbate together though
(ir)Rational
February 29th, 2012
3:43 pm
JHM – I don’t call myself a republican already. I just call myself, myself, and believe what I believe. It works better for me that way. I do, as you’ve seen here, approach things from a more conservative viewpoint, although my social views more closely line up with the liberal viewpoint. I voted for an equal number of republicans, democrats, and independents/libertarians in the last election, and will probably do so again. A couple of days before the election, the wife and I sit down and go through each candidates bio and read what they stand for and decide based off that information who we think would be the best person for us to vote for. Star Wars is always fun to quote, but I’ve never been as obsessed with it as those of you from my father’s generation – old fogies.
Jm
February 29th, 2012
3:43 pm
They
Left out
Thulsa Doom
February 29th, 2012
3:44 pm
Irrational,
Your argument isn’t crazy. At least you were man enough to admit that we generally do abortion as a matter of economic convenience. I just think you are confusing freedom with the central question of whether or not abortion is the killing of a human life. I noticed you did not respond to my example of randomly killing someone not being ok because it is considered killing a human life.
I just think Joe mama went straight into the asylum with his idea that a fetus is not human until its born and the umbilical chord cut. If that’s not complete insanity then what is?
AmVet - Son of a union thug
February 29th, 2012
3:44 pm
Meanwhile, the Republicans better get their business sorted out, and soon. CNBC reports that markets are already beginning to anticipate an Obama victory in November. Stocks are rising on growing expectations that the president will be re-elected.
http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/29/can-you-hear-the-fat-lady-singing-yet-in-the-gop-race/?hpt=hp_t2
Adam
February 29th, 2012
3:44 pm
(ir)Rational: simply because there are government programs that will help to take care of them if they are forced to carry that child full term.
Programs that people who often support anti-choice efforts also support completely eliminating. That’s not really helpful to the whole “life” thing, now is it?
Finn McCool (Class Warfare = Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)
February 29th, 2012
3:45 pm
You Pro-lifers might as well be arguing for return of Prohibition.
Isn’t going to happen ever again. It’s the law.
LTD. Learn To Deal.
Thulsa Doom
February 29th, 2012
3:46 pm
Jm,
I gotta get back to doing some business. I leave it up to you to taming the crazies out there. Shouldn’t be difficult.
Finn McCool (Class Warfare = Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)
February 29th, 2012
3:46 pm
can-you-hear-the-fat-lady-singing-yet-in-the-gop-race?
great title. I can hear her…getting quite loud
Joe Hussein Mama
February 29th, 2012
3:48 pm
Doom — “Well then you sure as hell implied it or strongly suggested it when you said for whatever reason what if a woman just doesn’t want to keep a child or because she doesn’t feel she can provide for it.”
I *asked* you if, given those circumstances, it was more responsible to have the child, knowing they couldn’t provide for it or if it was more responsible not to terminate the pregnancy. You still haven’t answered, so far as I can see.
If you think I implied something and I tell you that’s not what I meant, you’d get a lot more respect by saying something like ‘okay, tell me what you’re trying to say, because I’m not following you.’ You know good and well that I’ll be polite if I’m treated politely, Doom.
“And right on freaking cue! Boom! Just as Doomy predicted earlier you are going to start going into hypotheticals about the few young women about them who have *nobody* in the whole freaking world to help them.”
I didn’t do that, Doom. I asked what if *you* were the only person who could help this hypothetical cousin of yours. And right on freakin’ cue — BOOM — you start equivocating and backpedaling.
“So now you’re saying that the entire extended family can’t help at all. Nobody? They are all worthless? All of them?”
Yes, that was the question. Everyone in her extended family but *you.*
“Since its a hypothetical and you used my cousin then I will take her in and help. And the father will help support the child or go to jail for nonchild support. Doomy will make damn sure of that.”
I don’t have a problem with that, but read on.
“You guys got an excuse and a damn hypothetical for everything don’tcha.”
Yes.
“In any event should the state feel compelled to help out you ask?”
That’s not what I asked. I asked if *you* should be *compelled* by the *state* to help, even if you didn’t want to. You were the one saying that the extended family should help; I’m asking if that means *making* you help if you have the means but don’t want to help.
“Because we are a compassionate society we should and do provide a basic safety net is my answer. But what I also believe is that if single women don’t make fathers pay for their kids- and this is a problem specifically because of our nanny state- then the state should go after the father for monies to be garnished from his paycheck to help pay for the expenses of the state in helping the mother care for the child.”
Lots of states do that, but some courts are hamstrung these days. Some men who have lost their jobs have been unable to get their court ordered support decrees amended and POW, they go to jail. Consequently, they’re out of a job, can’t get a job and can’t pay what they owe. Because of mandatory lockups and slow dockets in family court, these men get caught up and thrown in jail, even though they want to find jobs and comply with their support decrees. It’s been reported on in the AJC in recent weeks.
(ir)Rational
February 29th, 2012
3:49 pm
Thulsa – Guess you missed this: “You don’t have a “right” to go out and take someone else’s life. You have a right to control what happens to your life, or to try, and if a woman is pregnant, it is her body and her life.” from my last post directed at you? But if that isn’t clear enough for you. You have a right to life, liberty and property (I like Locke better than Jefferson on the three rights), if you go out and kill someone, you’re depriving them of their rights. You have NO RIGHT to do that. IF, however, that (for the sake of argument, lets call it a “person”) “person” is inside your body, it is a part of your body and you can do with it what you wish. At a certain point in time, that “person” becomes a person (notice, no quotes) and is able to survive, and lead a normal life outside of, and independent of the host (mother in case you’re having a hard time keeping up). At that point, it would be wrong to kill it, up until that point, it should be up to the host/mother.
Libertarian
February 29th, 2012
3:50 pm
I love when people quote scripture in a political argument. Give me a break. We’re “supposed” to have separation of church and state here people.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
February 29th, 2012
3:50 pm
They’re worse when mental masturbate together though
Jm
February 6th, 2012
3:35 pm
A few thoughts:
1. I find the numerous sexual innuendos at Jay Bookman’s blog, in particular in regard to Santorum, or Newt’s sexual adventures, beyond tiresome.
Again — you are a WATB when it’s your ox being gored.
But you seem to find sexual innuendos acceptable when it’s you tossing them out there.
(ir)Rational
February 29th, 2012
3:51 pm
Adam – I’ve been having a hard enough time getting Thulsa to respond to my posts without really blowing his mind, but yeah. That has been pointed out here before, and I’m sure it will be pointed out again.
AmVet - Son of a union thug
February 29th, 2012
3:51 pm
(CNN) – Former Democratic Sen. Bob Kerrey on Wednesday officially announced his bid to recapture his old Senate seat in Nebraska.
“Doing things the conventional way has never been my strong suit,” Kerrey said in a statement. “This afternoon, I will file to become a candidate for the United States Senate in Nebraska.”
While Kerrey unveiled a new campaign website Wednesday, a spokesperson from the state’s Elections Division confirmed that he had not yet filed his paperwork.
Kerrey served as senator from 1989 to 2001, following a four-year term as governor. He’s widely considered the Democrats’ best chance at the seat in 2012.
One of the real good guys.
A former Navy SEAL and a Medal of Honor recipient for “conspicuous gallantry”.
Maybe the GOP’s swift-boating pieces of ____ will go after him…
Libertarian
February 29th, 2012
3:53 pm
I’ve been out of town for a few days…is “Ernest T. Bass” what the lefties usually refer to as a “troll”?
Joe Hussein Mama
February 29th, 2012
3:55 pm
Doom — “I just think Joe mama went straight into the asylum with his idea that a fetus is not human until its born and the umbilical chord cut. If that’s not complete insanity then what is?”
It’s a legitimate difference of opinion, Doom.
I’ve made it clear that I respect you and Bruno’s opinions, even though I don’t share them. I’d appreciate some reciprocity on that score, though I may be expecting too much of you.
Finn McCool (Class Warfare = Stopping Rich People from TAKING MORE of OUR MONEY)
February 29th, 2012
3:55 pm
Davy Jones of the Monkees is dead? Are they sure he isn’t faking it? Death-syncing, perhaps?
stands for decibels
February 29th, 2012
3:55 pm
Exactly. Control and PUNISHMENT.
In Virginia, per their Senate today, the punishment must be rape. In a doctor’s office, but it’s still rape.
josef
February 29th, 2012
3:57 pm
TAXI
To a degree…but they’ll be coming back to it…they always do…
Normal
February 29th, 2012
3:58 pm
All kidding aside and this is slightly ironic…I told a blogger here about a grandson I have and I spoke about his life so far.
I just now got off the phone with his mother, my daughter, and she told me he has…today…been put in a juvenile institution for…I guess you would call it, the unbalanced.
He was taken from his home for assaulting his sister and he has shown no remorse, even bragged about it, thus his incarceration…
The ironic thing is that when my daughter got pregnant at 17, her mother wanted to abort him. If my daughter had been an adult and she agreed, it would have happened. Her body, her decision.
Since she was a minor, I stepped in and said no.
The questions becomes what if I had said yes? Then there would be a innocent girl still with her innocence, at least.
They, through interviews, are finding out more abuse on other children, and I suspect the tip of the ice berg is all that has been revealed.
We think in ideals when it comes to “Pro Life”, save the innocent, and all that, but what of the reality of it?
This really shakes my soul because for wanting to do “the right thing”, I have caused pain and humiliation for children. I am truly sick to my stomach.
They BOTH suck
February 29th, 2012
3:59 pm
josef @ 3:57
Its election time man………. You know that “God, Guns and Gays” must be brought to the table to rile up the base……..
As you know… Nothing new. Same, tried and true tactics
Thulsa Doom
February 29th, 2012
3:59 pm
(ir)Rational, here’s what it comes down to, and I really mean this: as a conservative, I care about human beings before they are born and after they are dead. What happens in between is up to us, so we don’t need to care about anyone other than ourselves because we can look after ourselves, ourselves. Before we are born, and when we die, we have to rely on others, so that is why I am ok with government inteference before life and after death, but not in between. I’m tired so I’m leaving this one alone for now.
stands for decibels
February 29th, 2012
4:00 pm
I just now got off the phone with his mother, my daughter, and she told me he has…today…been put in a juvenile institution for…I guess you would call it, the unbalanced.
Jeez, Normal. Really sorry to hear this. heartbreaking stuff.
AmVet - Son of a union thug
February 29th, 2012
4:01 pm
One of the four RINOs going after the other three RINOs. (LOL)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPRnCKDD1Qo
They BOTH suck
February 29th, 2012
4:01 pm
Normal
Thoughts go out to you and your family…. Hope things work out for the best
stands for decibels
February 29th, 2012
4:01 pm
What happens in between is up to us, so we don’t need to care about anyone other than ourselves because we can look after ourselves, ourselves.
Like I said: Psychopaths.
Rich
February 29th, 2012
4:02 pm
Aborting a baby for the sake of looking good in a summer bikini is reprehensible.
Aborting a baby, the first trimester, because birth control didn’t work, you can’t afford it, you were forcibly raped, the victim of incest attack, the medical determination is that the baby will be deformed or suffer some painful and horrible malady, or a whole host of other medical reasons, should be left up to the mother, her doctor, her parents (if she is young), her boyfriend or husband, and priest or reverend if she is religious. Virginia’s recent attempt to mandate internal vaginal probes in order to be authorized for an abortion (and this from Republicans!) is a clear violation of privacy laws and overreaching government interference in areas it has no business to dictate.
Woman Voter
February 29th, 2012
4:03 pm
Normal says..
This really shakes my soul because for wanting to do “the right thing”, I have caused pain and humiliation for children. I am truly sick to my stomach.
You can not be hard on yourself. As kids grow older, they sometimes stray away from the morals and values that they are taught. It has nothing to do with their upbringing. Just never give up on the child…and keep praying!
Brosephus™ -
February 29th, 2012
4:03 pm
Kamchak
I ran jm’s post through my newest piece of detection equipment, and this was the result.