GOP continues to misplay auto bailout issue
Any real hope that Republicans may have had of carrying Michigan in November has probably disappeared thanks to the hard-fought GOP primary battle in that state, with Rick Santorum and Mitt Romney bidding for votes among the Republican base by trying to condemn the auto-industry rescue plan more harshly than his opponent.
But just in case, President Obama chose today, as Republican voters were going to the polls, to speak to the United Auto Workers convention and look back at recent history, when it seemed likely that both Chrysler and General Motors would go into liquidation.
Here’s part of what he had to say (full prepared text here):
“With the economy in complete freefall, there weren’t any private companies or investors willing to take a chance on the auto industry. Anyone in the financial sector could tell you that. So we could have kept giving billions of taxpayer dollars to the automakers without demanding real change or accountability in return. But that wouldn’t have solved anything. It would have just kicked the problem further on down the road. The other option we had was to do nothing, and allow these companies to fail. In fact, some politicians said we should. Some even said we should “let Detroit go bankrupt.”
Think about what that choice would have meant for this country. If we had turned our backs on you; if America had thrown in the towel; GM and Chrysler wouldn’t exist today. The suppliers and distributors that get their business from those companies would have died off, too. Then even Ford could have gone down as well. Production: shut down. Factories: shuttered. Once proud companies chopped up and sold off for scraps. And all of you – the men and women who built these companies with your own hands – would’ve been hung out to dry.
More than one million Americans across the country would have lost their jobs in the middle of the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression.
As Obama went on to note:
“About 700,000 retirees saw a reduction in the health care benefits they had earned. Many of you saw hours reduced, or pay and wages scaled back. You gave up some of your rights as workers. Promises were made to you over the years that you gave up for the sake and survival of this industry, its workers, and their families. You want to talk about values? Hard work – that’s a value. Looking out for one another – that’s a value. The idea that we’re all in it together – that I am my brother’s keeper; I am my sister’s keeper – that is a value.
But they’re still talking about you as if you’re some greedy special interest that needs to be beaten. Since when are hardworking men and women special interests? Since when is the idea that we look out for each other a bad thing?”
Given the success of the bailout, Republicans could have played the issue in one of two ways. They could acknowledge that it worked, applaud its success and move on, thus minimizing the political damage. Or they could continue to argue against all evidence that the bailout was a mistake, that they were right to oppose it and that the Americans involved didn’t deserve the help they got in keeping their jobs, their homes, their careers and their dreams.
They have chosen the second course, which frankly is pretty damn foolish.
– Jay Bookman
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403 comments Add your comment
Guy Incognito
February 28th, 2012
2:01 pm
Yugo didn’t take bailout $$$
ty webb
February 28th, 2012
2:04 pm
piss off a Nanny-Stater, buy a Ford.
Jay'sNonsense
February 28th, 2012
2:05 pm
What about the true owners of GM the stock and bond holders?
Obama gave the best parts of GM to the union thugs that support him and the democrats.
Mick
February 28th, 2012
2:06 pm
Well, even when the president is proven correct on something, the naysayers will disavow any success. Don’t believe it? Just look and see if bin laden is still around, you’ll get every excuse under the sun on how to avoid giving obama an inkling of that success. It is the sad state of a deluded party…
Jay
February 28th, 2012
2:07 pm
Would that be the same Ford that strongly supported the bailout because it feared that it too would get sucked into the maelstrom, Ty?
The same Ford that would have needed a bailout too except for the happy accident that it had negotiated a huge line of credit just before the economy collapsed, and thus had the capital to survive?
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
2:08 pm
As it is, I wouldn’t buy a GM or a Chrysler product because of the bailout. I know a lot of people that are like me, but I do agree with what Jay is saying. They are shooting themselves in the foot by arguing against something that kept people employed and that did (to anyone with eyes and a rational brain) work. Especially with Romney being from Michigan, he should know better than to argue against the bailout that saved his home state. He shouldn’t have had a problem running the table in Michigan, but this could be one thing that would help him along the way to losing it. Guess he can’t run as himself in the primaries, so he is presenting himself as someone that he wouldn’t vote for or recognize and I believe he will lose because of it.
Butch Cassidy
February 28th, 2012
2:09 pm
ty webb – “piss off a Nanny-Stater, buy a Ford.”
I guess reading comprehension isn’t your forte’. Had the other automakers gone down, the suppliers would have gone down with them. Unfortunately, you can’t keep multiple units going with only one client. Ford is great, but there is an immense and symbiotic support structure that holds the auto industry together. I’m hoping your comment was simply an attempt at humor.
Butch Cassidy
February 28th, 2012
2:10 pm
Jays Nonsense – “What about the true owners of GM the stock and bond holders?”
Yeah, F%$k the workers, where’s my dividend?
ty webb
February 28th, 2012
2:10 pm
Jay,
“would have”? that’s all you got?
Adam
February 28th, 2012
2:13 pm
TENTH
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
2:13 pm
Obama gave the best parts of GM to the union thugs that support him and the democrats.
Pretty easy to call someone a “thug” as an anonymous blog poster, huh, little man?
getalife
February 28th, 2012
2:13 pm
Our President wins this issue.
He is positioned like this on most issues.
The gop deserve to lose.
They BOTH suck
February 28th, 2012
2:14 pm
ty
Why no mention of the low interest loans that Ford received from the FEDs to revamp several factories?
Talking Head
February 28th, 2012
2:14 pm
this piece could also read “The President continues to mislead America” as he claims that Ford could have gone down as well. Ford wasn’t in trouble, didn’t need bailout cash. Also, the President implies Chrystler is still around because of the bailout. Yet Chrystler is owned by Itlanian Fiat.
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
2:14 pm
ty: you’re doubling down on dumb. Ford wanted the bailout to happen as well. You can’t refute that, so you need to call a waaaahmbulance ….
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
2:14 pm
Adam – Haha.
Adam
February 28th, 2012
2:15 pm
ty: Ford is not the most profitable auto maker in the world this past year. GM is.
JKL2
February 28th, 2012
2:15 pm
New Michigan campaign slogan:
Vote obama–get a check!
Butch Cassidy
February 28th, 2012
2:15 pm
Talking Head – “Ford wasn’t in trouble, didn’t need bailout cash. ”
And here’s why:
” it had negotiated a huge line of credit just before the economy collapsed, and thus had the capital to survive?
ty webb
February 28th, 2012
2:16 pm
“Ford” didn’t want a bailout…”you can’t refute that”.
Adam
February 28th, 2012
2:16 pm
(ir)Rational: Hey, if you believe some of the cons here, TENTH and SECOND are more important than FIRST (amendments)
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
2:17 pm
Ford wasn’t in trouble, didn’t need bailout cash.
Talking Head, there’s more than one way to be “in trouble”. Running out of cash is one. Not being able to get parts to build your cars is another. Check out what happened when a parts supplier’s workers went on strike in the past. Now imagine how well those parts suppliers — with large factories they have to pay off — suddenly lose 2/3 or 1/2 of their customer base and have to close up shop. No one just comes in and starts supplying alternate parts. Reality doesn’t work that way.
Butch Cassidy
February 28th, 2012
2:17 pm
JKL2 – “New Michigan campaign slogan:
Vote obama–get a check!”
New GOP Slogan – Vote Republican – Free Gas for Everyone!
Adam
February 28th, 2012
2:17 pm
“Newt is gonna pay my GAS BILL!” – Tea Party low information voter
Joe Hussein Mama
February 28th, 2012
2:17 pm
J. Nonsense — “What about the true owners of GM the stock and bond holders?”
As far as I’m concerned, y’all had a choice between getting *something,* which you did when the bailout happened, and getting nothing, which is what would have happened in a bankruptcy.
Stockholders’ equity would have been wiped out. Bondholders would have become unsecured creditors, just like the suppliers.
Stockholders and bondholders came out better in the bailout than they would have in a bankruptcy, so eff them and their whining.
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
2:18 pm
Talking Head – Yeah, Chrysler was in bad shape before the economy went in the dumps. Jeep and the Dodge Ram have been about the only thing worth buying from them for as long as I’ve been alive. And as has already been pointed out, just what would have happened to Ford if their suppliers had of gone bankrupt?
getalife
February 28th, 2012
2:18 pm
He saved our auto industry and got them to change.
A major accomplishment.
You lose cons.
Adam
February 28th, 2012
2:18 pm
ByteMe: There you go talking about REALITY again….
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
2:19 pm
Adam – I won’t agree that they’re more important, but I would say that are at the very least equally as important.
Granny Godzilla - Union Thugette
February 28th, 2012
2:19 pm
What hasn’t the GOP misplayed of late?
They’ve become the gang that couldn’t shoot straight.
Recon 0311 2533
February 28th, 2012
2:19 pm
“Given the success of the bailout,”
It was certainly successful for the unions, for the taxpayers, not so much.
ByteMe
February 28th, 2012
2:19 pm
Adam: sorry. I’m tired of the “War on Reality” being obsessively waged by those who live in Rightwingnutistan.
Granny Godzilla - Union Thugette
February 28th, 2012
2:20 pm
Vote GOP – Free Gas!
Adam
February 28th, 2012
2:20 pm
(ir)Rational: I would say they are exactly equally important.
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
2:20 pm
ByteMe – Given the shear size of GM, I would say that if GM and Chrysler had of gone under, the parts suppliers would have lost somewhere in the range of 75%-80% of their business.
ByteMe
February 28th, 2012
2:20 pm
for the taxpayers, not so much.
On the contrary: taxpayers would have had to pick up the tab for 1,000,000 more unemployed people than they did and those people are paying taxes this year as well. We win!
Butch Cassidy
February 28th, 2012
2:20 pm
Recon 0311 2533 – “It was certainly successful for the unions, for the taxpayers, not so much.”
Yeah, F!@K the workers, Where’s my tax cut?
Joe Hussein Mama
February 28th, 2012
2:21 pm
Recon — It was certainly successful for the autoworkers, for the GOP, not so much.
FTFY.
Adam
February 28th, 2012
2:21 pm
“I can get you gas for a dime” – Ron Paul
DebbieDoRight
February 28th, 2012
2:21 pm
Guy: Yugo didn’t take bailout $$$
OMG!! Too funny!!
getalife
February 28th, 2012
2:21 pm
Hang it up del.
ByteMe
February 28th, 2012
2:21 pm
I would say that if GM and Chrysler had of gone under, the parts suppliers would have lost somewhere in the range of 75%-80% of their business.
Depends on whether they supply two or three of them. That’s why I didn’t try to estimate the size of their book, but the number of customers.
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
2:22 pm
Adam – I would actually argue that 1 and 2 are the only things that make 10 enforceable. But that is just me.
Adam
February 28th, 2012
2:22 pm
ByteMe: On the contrary: taxpayers would have had to pick up the tab for 1,000,000 more unemployed people than they did and those people are paying taxes this year as well
Ah, ah, ah! You forgot the other part of the plan – defund unemployment insurance!
jm
February 28th, 2012
2:22 pm
“Somehow,” Chu said, “we have to figure out how to boost the price of gasoline to the levels in Europe.”
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0212/73138.html#ixzz1nhqAY4Wg
jm
February 28th, 2012
2:24 pm
oh. and Republicans would’ve helped the auto companies. Just in a different manner than Obama would have.
Republicans wouldn’t have violated decades of bankruptcy law like Obama did.
Adam
February 28th, 2012
2:24 pm
(ir)Rational: I would say “possible” rather than “enforceable”, along with the 4th amendment
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
2:24 pm
ByteMe – Good point.
Adam
February 28th, 2012
2:25 pm
Republicans wouldn’t have violated decades of bankruptcy law like Obama did.
Contact Rep. Issa so he can open up an investigation.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 28th, 2012
2:25 pm
Pretty sure no one’s paying attention to you today, jm.
Yeah you Bet
February 28th, 2012
2:26 pm
Jay’sNonsense
February 28th, 2012
2:05 pm
What about the true owners of GM the stock and bond holders?
Obama gave the best parts of GM to the union thugs that support him and the democrats.
Well what about that jack?
ByteMe
February 28th, 2012
2:26 pm
You forgot the other part of the plan – defund unemployment insurance!
Didn’t Republicans do that here in the past few years?
Tommy Maddox
February 28th, 2012
2:26 pm
“Given the success of the bailout” [which presupposes that you are a member of the UAW as opposed to a secure bond holder], our President has once again shown what thug politics is all about.
“He saved the auto industry”? No, he took it from the investors and gave it to the UAW. Give them a little while to do what they normally do then they’ll all go away.
Murph
February 28th, 2012
2:26 pm
Not that this is relevant at all to the topic at hand, jm, but….”Never mind that some energy experts say Chu had it exactly right, and that higher fuel prices would encourage consumers to buy more efficient vehicles, discourage suburban sprawl, make renewables more competitive and reduce U.S. reliance on imported oil”
Talking Head
February 28th, 2012
2:26 pm
Also, it appears from the actions of the DNC and the President that they are either very uncertain or fearful of Mitt becoming the GOP nominee. Just observing what has taken place so far today with the get out to vote campaign by the DNC and liberal media figures urging democrats to vote for Rick in MI, the President flying to MI to give a speech on the same day as the primary attempting to fire up the base by assuring everyone that the bailout was the best thing to happen and that some politicians (ie Mitt) wanted it to go bankrupt.
The uncertainty and fear is very real from the DNC and President.
Jimmy62
February 28th, 2012
2:28 pm
Success= massive theft, huge tax waivers, no real renegotiation of burdensome union contracts, billions of dollars of loans not paid back, two failed companies continuing the same junk that caused them to fail in the first place, and a third now at a big disadvantage because it didn’t get billions in free money.
That’s not success, and in 5 years when they either fail again or want more taxpayer money, even you will have to admit the truth. Any idea that this was a success is based on ignoring the numbers.
You know what happened when the horse and buggy industry was failing in this country? Companies shut down, new ones opened. It worked out pretty well.
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
2:28 pm
our President has once again shown what thug politics is all about.
Ah, there’s that Republican dog whistle again.
Bruno
February 28th, 2012
2:28 pm
Or they could continue to argue against all evidence that the bailout was a mistake, that they were right to oppose it and that the Americans involved didn’t deserve the help they got in keeping their jobs, their homes, their careers and their dreams.
Newt made a good point in the last debate–It wasn’t the auto industry as a whole that was on the verge of bankruptcy, it was two specific companies. Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Ford were all surviving.
The idea that we’re all in it together – that I am my brother’s keeper; I am my sister’s keeper – that is a value.
Yes, a value of socialism and communism, neither of which can produce a dynamic economy in the way that capitalism can. I’ll stick with capitalism.
Tommy Maddox
February 28th, 2012
2:28 pm
You ever been a secured creditor?
The Snark
February 28th, 2012
2:29 pm
@ Jay’s Nonsense:
“Obama gave the best parts of GM to the union thugs that support him and the democrats.”
Are you high on crack? Wage reductions and taking responsibiltiy for the benefits plan were the “best parts of GM”?
jewcowboy
February 28th, 2012
2:29 pm
I’m enjoying my Caddy (I wish I could afford a couple)…thank you Obama.
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
2:29 pm
You know what happened when the horse and buggy industry was failing in this country? Companies shut down, new ones opened. It worked out pretty well.
Not all at once on a single day, though. Are you needing a history lesson on the time between the car’s intro and the demise of horses as a primary mode of transportation?
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
2:30 pm
Jimmy62 – To work off your analogy to the carriage industry, exactly what was going to replace the automobile if those companies shut down? Are we all finally going to get those flying cars that were promised in the 60s?
Tommy Maddox
February 28th, 2012
2:30 pm
Just don’t look for too many investors in GM for the future.
Butch Cassidy
February 28th, 2012
2:30 pm
Jimmy62 – “You know what happened when the horse and buggy industry was failing in this country? Companies shut down, new ones opened.”
Yes, they were GM, Ford, Chrysler who came along with automobiles. What were you planning on replacing these industries with? Jet packs?
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
2:31 pm
I’ll stick with capitalism.
Bruno needs to read some Adam Smith. What we have is not “capitalism” by any stretch of the imagination and Adam Smith would be appalled at the level of market manipulation being done for and by the wealthy class.
Adam
February 28th, 2012
2:31 pm
Tommy: No, he took it from the investors and gave it to the UAW
You seem to know a lot about this. Please explain, in as much detail as you can, how Obama “gave” the auto industry to the UAW. Thanks in advance.
jm
February 28th, 2012
2:31 pm
Murph, that’s what it says. Question is do Americans want that kind of social engineering?
They seem to prefer the Republican position frankly. Like it or not.
Butch Cassidy
February 28th, 2012
2:31 pm
Bruno – ” I’ll stick with capitalism.”
Me too, but why does your side want to interfere with free trade in order to get cheap fuel? Sounds a lot like socialism to me.
Adam
February 28th, 2012
2:32 pm
fearful of Mitt becoming the GOP nominee.
AHAHAHA. No, no no… you’ve got it wrong. It’s not that they’re fearful of Mitt, it’s that they would LOVE to run against Santorum and his anti-woman, anti-choice, anti-education rhetoric.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 28th, 2012
2:33 pm
B. Cassidy — “Yes, they were GM, Ford, Chrysler who came along with automobiles. What were you planning on replacing these industries with? Jet packs?”
I think it was actually the opening that the buggy and whip makers had been looking for.
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
2:33 pm
Please explain, in as much detail as you can, how Obama “gave” the auto industry to the UAW.
We starting a betting pool on this one that he can’t actually provide facts? How about a drinking game for the number of times the word “thug” gets used?
Jimmy62
February 28th, 2012
2:33 pm
If this is such a success, then shouldn’t we take it further? Let’s give $25 billion to every failure in the country. Big company, small company, poor person, rich person, if you’ve failed at something, we’ll give you $25 billion! All our problems will be solved!!! I know this because Jay and Obama said so!
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
2:33 pm
Bruno – I’ll be back with links to either prove or disprove this later, but I believe that Japan and a few other countries stepped in and did the same thing we did with GM and Chrysler. Realizing you were just quoting someone else, I’m just cautioning you to check what others say before you repeat it.
Paul
February 28th, 2012
2:33 pm
Or Romney could have said what he hinted at, that he would have preferred a different way to save Detroit, but he’s glad the plan that Presidents Bush and Obama put in place worked.
But that’s probably too nuanced, so a “I’m glad it worked and all these Americans have jobs” would be best. But he keeps getting sucked in by his shortsighted opponents.
Romney’s like the bystander who jumps in the lake to save the drowning, flailing 350 lb whale of a guy who thrashes about and pulls them both under.
jm
February 28th, 2012
2:33 pm
“why does your side want to interfere with free trade in order to get cheap fuel?”
Reversing unreasonably denied drilling permits is not interfering with free trade. Rather the opposite.
Butch Cassidy
February 28th, 2012
2:34 pm
Jimmy62 – “Let’s give $25 billion to every failure in the country.”
Well, if Congress approves it.
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
2:34 pm
JHM – Dam, I always wanted to use a horse and buggy to get to work. That 25 mile trip from Kennesaw to Atlanta would have been awesome!
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
2:35 pm
If this is such a success, then shouldn’t we take it further?
Jimmy loses, because he can’t back his nonsense with facts. Too bad. Was hoping to see where he got his nonsense from.
Adam
February 28th, 2012
2:36 pm
If this is such a success, then shouldn’t we take it further? Let’s give $25 billion to every failure in the country.
What’s failing right now?
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
2:36 pm
But he keeps getting sucked in by his shortsighted opponents.
The mark of a leader.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 28th, 2012
2:36 pm
jm — “Reversing unreasonably denied drilling permits is not interfering with free trade.”
But nationalizing the US petroleum industry so that “our gas” gets kept and sold here at home IS.
jm
February 28th, 2012
2:36 pm
Jimmy62 – valid point (in terms of illustrating absurd liberal illogic)
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
2:36 pm
That 25 mile trip from Kennesaw to Atlanta would have been awesome
Down I-75??
Butch Cassidy
February 28th, 2012
2:37 pm
Jm – “Reversing unreasonably denied drilling permits is not interfering with free trade. Rather the opposite.”
And once the oil has been pumped, where will you dictate that the oil company sell it? Afterall, if it goes on the world market, it gets sold at market prices. Oh wait, I forgot, we’ll just nationalize the industry so we can dictate the price ourselves.
jm
February 28th, 2012
2:37 pm
“But nationalizing the US petroleum industry so that “our gas” gets kept and sold here at home IS.”
And no one has suggested doing that other than a few loco libs in their own imaginations.
/out
Doggone/GA
February 28th, 2012
2:37 pm
“It was certainly successful for the unions, for the taxpayers, not so much”
Since it was successful for the unions it WAS successful the taxpayers. The roles of taxpayers still includes those union workers, and we don’t have to pay for them all being on unemployment and/or assistance because they wouldn’t have jobs.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 28th, 2012
2:39 pm
jm — “And no one has suggested doing that other than a few loco libs in their own imaginations.”
It’s been suggested here several times in recent weeks by our very own cons.
Tommy Maddox
February 28th, 2012
2:39 pm
Hey Adam: Talk to Obama’s Auto Task Force Czar, Ron Bloom.
Oh, I guess he misspoke. Never mind…
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
2:39 pm
ByteMe – Yeah, like I said, it would have been “fun.” – Granted, I forgot the quotation marks around fun last time, but I think you understand.
Adam
February 28th, 2012
2:39 pm
For every 1% increase in union membership among the workforce, the wages of EVERY employee, union or non union, rises by about $156/year on average. Look it up, and weep.
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
2:40 pm
Bruno – From earlier:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/03/toyota-seeks-bailout-from_n_171303.html
http://rpurbeck.xomba.com/toyota_honda_mazda_getting_bailout_japanese_government
Paul
February 28th, 2012
2:40 pm
ByteMe
“On the contrary: taxpayers would have had to pick up the tab for 1,000,000 more unemployed people than they did and those people are paying taxes this year as well.”
And then we’d hear Republican candidates criticizing the President with “Look at that. Under his leadership, another million workers lost their jobs!!!!”
Butch Cassidy
February 28th, 2012
2:40 pm
jm – “And no one has suggested doing that other than a few loco libs in their own imaginations.”
Fine, then please instruct everyone as to how the U.S. control the price of a commodity without actually controlling the industry that produces it. And keep in mind, there is no United States of America Oil Corporation.
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
2:40 pm
Bruno – Don’t know if it happened or not, but here is an article talking about Volkswagen and Daimler asking for one:
http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2008/12/volkswagen-if-the-american-carmakers-can-get-bailout-funds-so-can-we.html
Jimmy62
February 28th, 2012
2:40 pm
Byte Me: That’s easy. The UAW wasn’t a secured creditor. In a bankruptcy the secured creditors go first. Rather than follow those procedures, Obama ignored the secured creditors (who only put up their money in the first place because they were supposed to be first in line in bankruptcy), and out UAW at the front of the line and gave them over 50% of the company. It was literally stolen from those secured creditors to give to the group who was as responsible as anyone for the failure of the company.
So not only did we reward the UAW for driving GM to bankruptcy, not only did we make investors think a lot harder before investing in businesses the government favors, not only did we chill capital investment altogether, but we also failed to take advantage of the chance to renegotiate the bad union contracts (and even Obama buddy Steven Rattner agrees with the last being a major mistake, and one that will likely lead to further failure for the company, and further reward for UAW leadership, who got more out of this than anyone, despite being more responsible for the failure than just about anyone else).
But all this has been written in these pages many times, the left just chooses to ignore massive grand theft as long as it’s their side stealing.
Adam
February 28th, 2012
2:40 pm
Tommy: Never mind…
I accept your surrender.
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
2:41 pm
Paul: yes, their whining seems to know no bounds.
harvey
February 28th, 2012
2:41 pm
Given most of us don’t get to keep a job if there isn’t anything to do, or get a pension, the auto bailout sucks. So does the bailout king.
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
2:41 pm
Butch – I already explained it downstairs. There is a magic gas prices button.
Adam
February 28th, 2012
2:42 pm
Jimmy62: Ok, you are doing good, except…
So not only did we reward the UAW for driving GM to bankruptcy,
Please explain how the UAW was responsible for the bankruptcy, in as much detail as you can.
Doggone/GA
February 28th, 2012
2:43 pm
” UAW for driving GM to bankruptcy”
Got proof of that?
Butch Cassidy
February 28th, 2012
2:43 pm
(ir)Rational – “I already explained it downstairs. There is a magic gas prices button.”
I must have missed that. Actually with all the talk on the Right about being able to control the price of gas, you’d think someone might want to show the POTUS where the button is.
Midori
February 28th, 2012
2:44 pm
well Jay — Obama could have chosen another route.
He could have just paid them off in food stamps.
Adam
February 28th, 2012
2:44 pm
Doggone: JINX
kayaker 71
February 28th, 2012
2:44 pm
Just heard on Fox….. Bozo is going to build a soccer field for the detainees at Gitmo….. a friggin’ soccer field at a cost to the taxpayer of 750K. Cuts in the military budget are OK but we must have a soccer field for those animals to enjoy themselves. I just can’t wait until November ….. it can’t come soon enough.
Joseph
February 28th, 2012
2:44 pm
Foolish was pissing away billions of dollars when bankruptcy would have done exactly the same thing.
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
2:44 pm
Butch – According to the media, only republican presidents have access to it.
Adam
February 28th, 2012
2:45 pm
Butch: you’d think someone might want to show the POTUS where the button is.
They think he knows where it is and is driving up the prices on purpose because they hear the phrase “gradual adjustment” and think it means “ZOMG INCREASE GAS PRICES!”
DebbieDoRight
February 28th, 2012
2:45 pm
JKL2: New Michigan campaign slogan: Vote obama–get a check
New Democratic Slogan — Vote Dem – Get a REALITY Check!!!
New Repub slogan — Vote Repub — Get a Cross and some ammo!!
New Newt Slogan — Vote for me — Or the New-Ex-Mrs. Gingrich Gets It!
New Rick Sanitarium Slogan — Duh!
New Ron Paul Slogan — I’m consistent! (I’m also constipated and cranky but hey — that’s consistent too!)
Adam
February 28th, 2012
2:45 pm
Just heard on Fox
Annnnnnnnnd I stopped reading.
Joseph
February 28th, 2012
2:45 pm
I’m sure the UAW is happy. They are the one’s reeping the benefits and in return are donating money to Obama…
Let's not count our chickens, K?
February 28th, 2012
2:46 pm
jm (aka, mistah pryvat equity) – how come your pe boys didn’t want a piece of the auto pie?
Joseph
February 28th, 2012
2:47 pm
Just like with the stimulus… The American tax payer got the short end of the stick…
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
2:47 pm
DDR – Isn’t being consistent the opposite of being constipated? Wait, no that’s regular. Sorry.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 28th, 2012
2:47 pm
Jimmy62 — “Obama ignored the secured creditors (who only put up their money in the first place because they were supposed to be first in line in bankruptcy), and out UAW at the front of the line and gave them over 50% of the company. It was literally stolen from those secured creditors to give to the group who was as responsible as anyone for the failure of the company.”
If it was a bailout and not an actual bankruptcy, then *how,* exactly, were the secured creditors “stolen” from? You yourself admit that no actual bankruptcy happened.
So if there was no actual bankruptcy, then why would the secured creditors go first?
Paul
February 28th, 2012
2:47 pm
harvey
“Given most of us don’t get to keep a job if there isn’t anything to do, or get a pension, the auto bailout sucks. So does the bailout king.”
So I take it you don’t agree with the President’s values?
“Looking out for one another – that’s a value. The idea that we’re all in it together – that I am my brother’s keeper; I am my sister’s keeper – that is a value”
“My brother’s keeper.” Hmmmm…. I wonder where he got that socialist idea…..
Fire in the Hole
February 28th, 2012
2:48 pm
Obama stole Gm and gave it to the union thugs and Jay and the rest of you say nothing about the true owners property rights. How would you like the government to steal your lifetime investments?
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
2:48 pm
The UAW wasn’t a secured creditor. In a bankruptcy the secured creditors go first.
That would be in a typical bankruptcy. This wasn’t one of those. This was a deal whereby the governments of the US and Canada did a deal along with the UAW’s pension and healthcare trusts (not the workers directly) to bail out GM. Otherwise, the company would have been liquidated and no one would get much of anything… and you’d have complained about that when it came to picking the next President (”He let GM fail!!”).
Paul
February 28th, 2012
2:48 pm
kayaker 71
“Bozo is going to build a soccer field for the detainees at Gitmo….. a friggin’ soccer field at a cost to the taxpayer of 750K.”
Are you saying the Defense budget has waste and inefficiencies and can be cut?
CJ
February 28th, 2012
2:48 pm
The anti-bailout attitude of many is surreal. America has long history of successful bailouts, including but not limited to bailouts of railroads, car companies, airlines, saving and loans, Mexico, and others. These actions were almost unanimously successful and always uncontroversial until conservatism took a hard right when Obama won the election.
Mitzymy
February 28th, 2012
2:49 pm
Obama did the right thing by bailing out Detroit. Now GM is the number One auto maker in the whole wide world. It would have been a foreign auto maker like Toyota. 1 million employees were not in the unemployment line, which is still long. Detroit is coming back, and the bailouts helped. Don’t expect the Repubs to give Obama credit for anything he has done, but expect them to blame him for whatever goes wrong, whether its his fault or not. The problem with them is that the man in the white house is not white.
Butch Cassidy
February 28th, 2012
2:49 pm
Since it seems that the UAW caused the demise of the auto industry, perhaps Jimmy62 could enlighten us as to what caused the demise of Bear Sterns and Lehman Brothers, were they overrun with auto workers as well?
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
2:50 pm
DDR – NO! If he is constipated, does that mean he is full of sh*t?
Paul
February 28th, 2012
2:50 pm
Hi Midori!!
Bruno
February 28th, 2012
2:50 pm
Me too, but why does your side want to interfere with free trade in order to get cheap fuel? Sounds a lot like socialism to me.
For starters, you’ll not find one post from me talking about high gas prices, especially not in any kind of political context. Secondly, I speak for myself, not for any group. Having said that, the Lib hyperbole about a Con takeover of the oil industry is just that–meaningless hyperbole. As Jm mentioned above, there are a few things the federal govt can do to facilitate the oil industry’s ability to keep the supply plentiful, which I see no problem doing since cheap energy helps us all. Very different from an industry takeover.
Adam
February 28th, 2012
2:50 pm
(ir)Rational @ 2:50p
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
2:51 pm
The problem with them is that the man in the white house is not white.
No, that’s not it. The problem with them is that TVs in Rightwingnutistan only tune to one channel and the Internet is limited to a very few sites.
Adam
February 28th, 2012
2:52 pm
Bruno: As Jm mentioned above, there are a few things the federal govt can do to facilitate the oil industry’s ability to keep the supply plentiful, which I see no problem doing since cheap energy helps us all. Very different from an industry takeover.
And also completely ineffective at producing said results, as the past few decades of ramping up production and reducing dependency (increasing supply, reducing demand) can easily demonstrate.
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
2:52 pm
perhaps Jimmy62 could enlighten us as to what caused the demise of Bear Sterns and Lehman Brothers, were they overrun with auto workers as well?
They would have still been around if they had a few union thugs, I swear!!
Butch Cassidy
February 28th, 2012
2:53 pm
Bruno – “there are a few things the federal govt can do to facilitate the oil industry’s ability to keep the supply plentiful”
However, plentiful and affordable are not the same thing as indicated on numerous occasions. We are producing and exporting oil in record numbers, but it has had little effect on the price of a gallon of gas.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 28th, 2012
2:55 pm
Bruno — “the Lib hyperbole about a Con takeover of the oil industry is just that–meaningless hyperbole.”
Not in the least. Domestically produced petroleum is sold on the world market. The only way ‘our gas’ can be kept ‘here at home,’ the way some of our conservative friends and associates recommend, is via nationalization of part of all of the petroleum industry.
If our conservative friends and associates have some other particular mechanism in mind to accomplish the goal of keeping ‘our gas’ here ‘at home,’ then it is incumbent upon them to tell us about it. Absent that, they’re simply setting up a wonderful opportunity for me and the rest of the Left to accurately rebrand them as the SOSHULISTS they’ve been shrieking about since 2008.
IOW, if they’ve got a non-socialist means in mind to do it, then speak up or GTFO.
Butch Cassidy
February 28th, 2012
2:55 pm
ByteMe – Liberal Thug – “They would have still been around if they had a few union thugs, I swear!!”
Of course. Outside of the auto industry, you won’t find a more heavily unionized or regulated industry than banking.
Erwin's cat
February 28th, 2012
2:56 pm
I wouldn’t call TARP successful until it’s all been paid back….just sayin’
gm
February 28th, 2012
2:56 pm
I mean the rep candidates are the most stupid people on this earth, how are you going to argue some body jobs being saved, I dont care if you are rep or dem if its look like you are going to be kicked out in the streets you could care less where the money comes from.
Now you have satan himself Rick S. bashing Obama for telling people to go to college, what planet to the far right come from? this man is trying take America back to the 19th century, then you have the iditot Dick Morris on Sean the 3 times college drop out Hannity saying Obama is going to lose in a land slide, the same idiot who said Obama will lose to MCcain, but idiots on the right watch these nut bags and say they are reporting fair and balance news, what does this tell you about their viewers?
St Simons - we're on Island Thug time
February 28th, 2012
2:56 pm
Mitt Rmoney – “let them go bankrupt”
this cycle’s “let em eat cake”
never…live…it…down…
I swear, he’s like Boy Blunder & Dan Quayle, with hair gel
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
2:57 pm
Adam – Thank you, thank you. I’ll be here all week, and don’t forget to tip your waiters.
Thulsa Doom
February 28th, 2012
2:57 pm
“Given the success of the bailout”
The taxpayers have been paid back all of the billions from GM? I was not aware of that.
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
2:57 pm
I wouldn’t call TARP successful until it’s all been paid back
All the while moaning about the government’s continued ownership of these companies while they wait for their stock prices to appreciate? No thanks. Not buying what you’re selling. Get them stabilized and get out and consider it an “investment” in getting people back to work.
ty webb
February 28th, 2012
2:59 pm
“gm”(the commenter appearing at 2:56, not the auto co.) speaks well for the democrat party. I can think of no other person who exemplifies the intellect of the left…Kudos!..resist you much.
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
3:02 pm
Any Rightwingnutistan resident willing to go on record as saying they would have supported Obama for letting GM and Chrysler fail and putting a million more people out of work?
Thulsa Doom
February 28th, 2012
3:03 pm
“We are producing and exporting oil in record numbers,”
Butch Cassidy,
I’m not sure about that. We may in fact be exporting in record numbers but I thought we were only at a 10 year high in terms of domestic production and that if you look at the 20 year high in production we are at roughly 70% of the alltime high in production. Not sure but it seems that’s what I heard that in news on CNN or Faux news.
ty webb
February 28th, 2012
3:04 pm
I would have supported both Bush and Obama letting GM and Chrysler declare bankruptcy.
Butch Cassidy
February 28th, 2012
3:04 pm
ByteMe – Liberal Thug – “Any Rightwingnutistan resident willing to go on record as saying they would have supported Obama for letting GM and Chrysler fail and putting a million more people out of work?”
I don’t know why they wouldn’t. Afterall, those people losing their jobs would have been union workers, not REAL Americans.
F. Sinkwich
February 28th, 2012
3:06 pm
Oh, good.
Do I still have to pay $7,500 to every doofus who buys a POS Volt?
Butch Cassidy
February 28th, 2012
3:06 pm
ty webb- “I would have supported both Bush and Obama letting GM and Chrysler declare bankruptcy.”
Excellent. Don’t forget to pick up your Patriotic American Flag Snuggie and Hannity doll as you exit the lobby.
Bruno
February 28th, 2012
3:07 pm
And also completely ineffective at producing said results, as the past few decades of ramping up production and reducing dependency (increasing supply, reducing demand) can easily demonstrate.
Adam, et. al.–The reason you don’t see any posts from me regarding gas prices in a political context is that we’re dealing with a finite resource and an ever-increasing demand world-wide. So prices pretty much only have one direction to go: up. The only issue is how quickly. Too steep of an increase would wreak havoc on our economy due to our dependence on the trucking industry to bring our goods to us. As such, I’m fine with the govt. facilitating private industry. Which is a far cry from Joe Mama’s mumbo-jumbo @ 2:55.
One of these days, “alternative” fuel sources will be cheaper than gas. Until that day comes, no need for all the hand-wringing.
Butch Cassidy
February 28th, 2012
3:07 pm
Thulsa Doom – “Seemed like I heard that term more often in the brokerage industry than anywhere else in life.”
Is that a surprise coming from me? You know where I spent my career.
Midori
February 28th, 2012
3:08 pm
Hi Paul
got your food stamps yet?
I understand Obama sent them to all us on this blog, courtesy of Federal Express.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 28th, 2012
3:08 pm
F. Sinkiewicz — “Do I still have to pay $7,500 to every doofus who buys a POS Volt?”
I’m going to go buy one just so I can get in your wallet.
Peadawg
February 28th, 2012
3:08 pm
“I would have supported both Bush and Obama letting GM and Chrysler declare bankruptcy.”
What about the banks that were bailed out? Were you in favor of them going bankrupt too? Just curious…answer honestly please.
kayaker 71
February 28th, 2012
3:08 pm
Paul,
I would rather buy 40 dollar toilet seats than spend one dime of taxpayer money making fanatic Muslims happier. Sure, we do need cuts in the military budget but a soccer field? Even the Democratic pundits on Fox were laughing. There is no possible way that you can spin this into something positive. Just another bad decision…. there have been a wealth of them in the last three years.
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
February 28th, 2012
3:08 pm
Well, I got to admit I had a selfish reason to oppose that bailout. I wanted GM and Chrysler to go down hard and take all the suppliers with them. See, when millions of people are out of work they get depressed. And when people get depressed they drink. And when they drink they buy lots of beer. And when they buy lots of beer my 401k beer stock shoots thru the roof.
So I guess it’s more than just letting Free Innerprize work and sticking it to the auto unions. So shoot me. It ain’t as tho I’m the only Republican that wants to make a little money from other peoples misery. If Drs. and insurance co. can make a mint from people being sick I reckon it won’t kill anybody for a beer truck driver to fatten his 401k.
Have a good p.m. everybody.
DebbieDoRight
February 28th, 2012
3:08 pm
ir(Rational): DDR – NO! If he is constipated, does that mean he is full of sh*t?
Aren’t ALL of them?
Joe Hussein Mama
February 28th, 2012
3:09 pm
Bruno — ” Which is a far cry from Joe Mama’s mumbo-jumbo @ 2:55.”
Your concession is noted and appreciated.
Butch Cassidy
February 28th, 2012
3:09 pm
F. Sinkwhich – “Do I still have to pay $7,500 to every doofus who buys a POS Volt?”
Only if you don’t pay me back the tax money that went toward the SUV credits under Bush.
ty webb
February 28th, 2012
3:09 pm
yes, peadawg, the banks too.
Thulsa Doom
February 28th, 2012
3:09 pm
Irrational,
I already told you its W who has the secret computer with levers and buttons that push the price of oil up and down depending on how much his oil buddies want to screw us from day to day. Me and my merry band of ruffians are going to steal it back as an act of patriotism. We want even you libs to have cheap gas.
Steve - USA (I support "None Of The Above")
February 28th, 2012
3:09 pm
Jimmy62@2:40
Spot on. You better be ready for a massive spin of those facts in 1…2…
Joseph
February 28th, 2012
3:09 pm
http://blog.heritage.org/2012/02/27/obamacares-top-5-broken-promises/
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
3:10 pm
We may in fact be exporting in record numbers but I thought we were only at a 10 year high in terms of domestic production
This is true. Highest since 2003, I just read.
But we have more rigs drilling for oil in the Gulf and elsewhere.
So think about this: we have more places we’re drilling, but less oil being produced. Why is that? Not enough in the ground? The oil companies don’t want to put the supply on the market which might lower the price? Not sure.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 28th, 2012
3:10 pm
K71 — “I would rather buy 40 dollar toilet seats than spend one dime of taxpayer money making fanatic Muslims happier.”
Clearly you haven’t been to Home Depot lately.
Erwin's cat
February 28th, 2012
3:11 pm
Butch – be sure to tell your boss to pay you in prestige instead of dollars…it’s worth more
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
3:11 pm
Thank you for going on record, ty. I’m sure you’ll be hearing about it from everyone else for the next year at least
Butch Cassidy
February 28th, 2012
3:11 pm
Joseph – “http://blog.heritage.org/2012/02/27/obamacares-top-5-broken-promises/”
Dude, the Heritage Foundation is to the Right as the Huffington Post is to the Left, and neither carries much credibility when looking for the truth.
barking frog
February 28th, 2012
3:13 pm
It’s not that the white house is not
white, It’s that the white house is not
right.
Butch Cassidy
February 28th, 2012
3:13 pm
Erwin’s cat – “Butch – be sure to tell your boss to pay you in prestige instead of dollars…it’s worth more”
Actually, being retired from the Financial industry, I’m pretty familiar with how much prestige you can get by being a BSD.
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
3:14 pm
DDR – Well, at least two of them are. I have it on good authority that Newt enjoys a nice enema from time to time. (I’m going to have to jump off a high building to erase that image from my head)
Thulsa – Obviously, we’re both joking, but you cross the line when you lump me in with the liberals. I’m just not a republican. I am conservative, and I will never again associate myself with a party because I think for myself. It enables me to see where some people have done good when I might not agree with them on anything else (and the opposite of that too). Anyway, since you crossed the line, I challenge you to a duel. As the challenged party, I believe you have the right to choose weapons.
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
3:14 pm
Peadawg: I would have been happier to put the banks through the same process as was done with GM and Chrysler. Fire their boards, kill off the stock and give the bondholders a big haircut, right-size their assets to something that’s not TBTF, and then spin them back out to the open market as an IPO after resolving the legal issues behind the massive mortgage and securities fraud they engaged in.
Thulsa Doom
February 28th, 2012
3:14 pm
Butch Cassidy,
I notice sherriff Bookman took my comment about the big swinging thingie into moderation land. My years in the brokerage industry were the only times I heard that term- and we heard it often. And if you opened a whale or were at the top in gross you certainly did strut around the bullpen like the big swinging thingie that you were for the day.
Bruno
February 28th, 2012
3:14 pm
Get them stabilized and get out and consider it an “investment” in getting people back to work.
Butch–The govt has no place being part-owner of any industry.
Per the union’s culpability in bankrupting GM and Chrysler, don’t some of you think that an average cost per employee of somewhere around $75 per hour might put a little strain on a company??
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
3:15 pm
Butch: the Heritage Foundation… weren’t they the ones who said that healthcare should be restructured by requiring everyone to pay insurance… you know, a mandate?
Erwin's cat
February 28th, 2012
3:15 pm
and how does letting GM file bankruptcy equal losing millions of jobs?
Butch Cassidy
February 28th, 2012
3:16 pm
Thulsa Doom – “And if you opened a whale or were at the top in gross you certainly did strut around the bullpen like the big swinging thingie that you were for the day.”
Exactly, you didn’t think I spent my career opening “super saver” accounts for widows did you?
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
3:16 pm
don’t some of you think that an average cost per employee of somewhere around $75 per hour might put a little strain on a company??
Don’t you think that their management might have had something to do with that labor contract?
Thulsa Doom
February 28th, 2012
3:17 pm
“Anyway, since you crossed the line, I challenge you to a duel. As the challenged party, I believe you have the right to choose weapons.”
I choose my big swinging thingie. You can borrow Butch Cassidy’s if you don’t have one. He’s probably got a really big one if he retired from the brokerage industry.
TaxPayer
February 28th, 2012
3:17 pm
Given the sentiments of the devout followers of the Republican faith that post here, I see no alternative for the GOP candidates but to continue to cut their own throats for votes. Works for me.
Bernie
February 28th, 2012
3:17 pm
Mullah Rick, Richie Rich Mitt, and Newt the Poot have all taken a big Bite ot the Republican Dumb Dumb
Sandwich and now they expectect the American People to do it again. I am sorry, The leadership of the RepublicanParty has failed on so many levels along with the misadventures of W. has taken its toll on a great Country that was the envy of the world.
gm
February 28th, 2012
3:17 pm
kayaker 71
Yea fox now theres a true source, the same fox that said Obama was going to lose in 2008, now we know why you are a misinformed bottle of hate screw ball.
Democratic pundits on Fox those are Democratics those are people who are rep but to get on tv they have to lie and say they are Dem, wow that Sean Hannity really know how to research I guess after 4 colleges of droping out makes him a ringer.
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
3:17 pm
ByteMe – Why, it occurs to me that you could be correct. And apparently Forbes agrees:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/2011/10/20/how-a-conservative-think-tank-invented-the-individual-mandate/
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
3:18 pm
irR: but but but, isn’t Forbes part of the liberal media elite???
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
3:19 pm
Thulsa – I was just planning to hurt you, not kill you.
Jeff
February 28th, 2012
3:19 pm
Keep barking about how Republicans equal free gas. Most Democrat voters are at an intelligence level that will believe that. Maybe we’ll get their votes,
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
3:19 pm
ByteMe – I honestly have no idea (and I’m not playing dense here).
Joe Hussein Mama
February 28th, 2012
3:19 pm
Bruno — “Per the union’s culpability in bankrupting GM and Chrysler, don’t some of you think that an average cost per employee of somewhere around $75 per hour might put a little strain on a company??”
If management *agreed* to it, then how’s that the union’s fault?
Butch Cassidy
February 28th, 2012
3:19 pm
(ir)Rational – “And apparently Forbes agrees:”
Forbes? Well you know what a left wing leaning, communist, socialistic manifesto rag that publication is.
Thulsa Doom
February 28th, 2012
3:19 pm
“Exactly, you didn’t think I spent my career opening “super saver” accounts for widows did you?”
No pikers in Butch Cassidy’s book.
Doggone/GA
February 28th, 2012
3:21 pm
“I notice sherriff Bookman took my comment about the big swinging thingie into moderation land”
Are you REALLY so damn arrogant as to think you’re SO important that Jay has nothing better to do than sit around on the off chance you MIGHT post something stupid? You got caught by the blue-nosed bitch, an AUTOMATED system. You’ve spelled something on the no-no list, or used a no-no word.
Try again, maybe you can be less stupid and it’ll go through this time.
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
3:23 pm
Butch and ByteMe – I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that Forbes is more right leaning?
DebbieDoRight
February 28th, 2012
3:23 pm
“It was certainly successful for the unions, for the taxpayers, not so much
Aren’t the people in Unions taxpayers too? Duh!
Adam: For every 1% increase in union membership among the workforce, the wages of EVERY employee, union or non union, rises by about $156/year on average. Look it up, and weep
That’s what “The Man” doesn’t like!! If we make more money then we can afford to do things like move into better neighborhoods….
….which has better school districts…..
….which would make our kids smarter and more likely to attend college…….
…..which would DEPLETE the slave labor pool!!!
Duh!
Goldie
February 28th, 2012
3:23 pm
Thank God we have President Obama and the Dems in the White House, saving Americans from the Repub’s scorch-n-burn policies!
getalife
February 28th, 2012
3:24 pm
Did our sc vote on corporate immunity yet?
5-4 ?
Thulsa Doom
February 28th, 2012
3:24 pm
Irational,
I don’t wanna get hurt. May have to address you going forward as “Mr. deep thinking independent voice of dissent”.
Butch Cassidy
February 28th, 2012
3:25 pm
(ir)Rational – “Butch and ByteMe – I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that Forbes is more right leaning?”
I think so, but watch Steve Forbes on Fox sometime and draw your own conlusion. : )
Erwin's cat
February 28th, 2012
3:25 pm
Doggone @3:21
..true story
Reminds me of a conversation I overheard at a recent international meeting…An American asked a Frenchman…Why do the French hate America so much? The Frenchman: You Americans are so arrogant, what makes you think you are so important that we hate only you?
Butch Cassidy
February 28th, 2012
3:25 pm
Oops conclusion.
yuzeyurbrane
February 28th, 2012
3:26 pm
They are in their own bubble, oblivious to reality.
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
3:27 pm
DDR – Well, if you live in Atlanta, you don’t have to live in a good neighborhood to go to a good school. They’ll just redistrict you and put you in one. And that isn’t meant to be offensive to anyone, just speaking the truth. My neighborhood just (well, is in the process) got redistricted from E. Rivers to Bolton Academy. Now when the children on my street go to school in the morning they have to pass one elementary school to get to another. I don’t know why exactly, but that’s what the city decided.
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
3:27 pm
irR: Steve Forbes ran for Republican nomination in 1996 and 2000 and supported Rick Perry this year.
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
3:28 pm
Thulsa – I was just suggesting picking a different weapon, but that works too.
Butch – I don’t typically watch Fox News, simply because when I sit down and want to watch the news, they’re doing commentary.
Thulsa Doom
February 28th, 2012
3:30 pm
…..which would DEPLETE the slave labor pool!!!
Debbiedoright,
That hyperbole is a bit much ma’am. We Alabama fans don’t consider LSwho fans to be our slaves. They are however our beyotches.
Bruno
February 28th, 2012
3:31 pm
Don’t you think that their management might have had something to do with that labor contract?
Management’s capitulation to the unions over and over doesn’t somehow move the labor cost from the worker’s ledger to the management’s ledger. Excessive labor cost was likely the biggest culprit in terms of the companies’ larger financial woes. Do you deny that?? If so, why do you think the unions should have been rewarded with ownership??
Joe Hussein Mama
February 28th, 2012
3:31 pm
Doggone — “You got caught by the blue-nosed bitch, an AUTOMATED system. You’ve spelled something on the no-no list, or used a no-no word.”
This is why I use the euphemism “Richard” for the word in question. It never seems to trigger the autocensor.
timbo
February 28th, 2012
3:32 pm
Obama – Leading From Behind.
That about says it all.
This year I will be voting AGAINST Obama more than I will be voting for the GOP candidate.
Butch Cassidy
February 28th, 2012
3:33 pm
(ir)Rational – ” I don’t know why exactly, but that’s what the city decided.”
Tell me about it. Growing up my house was directly across the street from Foothill Elementary. But due to the districting, I had to attend Lincoln Elementary 5 blocks south of where I lived. No matter where you go, government stupid will always be with you.
mm
February 28th, 2012
3:33 pm
“It was certainly successful for the unions”
The rallying cry of the low information voters.
Don’t you think Obama would be in serious trouble if this were true?
getalife
February 28th, 2012
3:34 pm
LSU 1.
Bama 1.
Own that.
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
3:34 pm
ByteMe – So yeah, I’m going to assume a news site/magazine owned by him would be right leaning.
Butch Cassidy
February 28th, 2012
3:35 pm
timbo – “This year I will be voting AGAINST Obama more than I will be voting for the GOP candidate”
And based on your previous posts, this is somehow a surprise becuase…..?.
Bruno
February 28th, 2012
3:35 pm
getalife, strange as it may sound mathematically, sometimes 1 /= 1.
Only one champ, it it ain’t LSU. Sorry.
Thulsa Doom
February 28th, 2012
3:36 pm
getalife,
Would you come over and shine my replica of the crystal ball. Its getting some dust on it after a month or so? The 2011 AP trophy could use a touchup also.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 28th, 2012
3:37 pm
Bruno — “Management’s capitulation to the unions over and over doesn’t somehow move the labor cost from the worker’s ledger to the management’s ledger.”
If management *agreed* to it, then why does it belong in the workers’ ledger in the first place? Isn’t that a *shared* responsibility?
“Excessive labor cost was likely the biggest culprit in terms of the companies’ larger financial woes. Do you deny that??”
I don’t deny that you think it was likely, no. Now, if you’d like to present some concrete and verifiable data, we can talk about facts instead of conjecture.
“If so, why do you think the unions should have been rewarded with ownership??”
Get back to me with actual data, Bruno, and then we can talk. And let me know when you have some sort of actual plan to keep ‘our gas’ here ‘at home’ instead of putting it on the world market — and doing it in a non-SOSHULIST manner.
Chevy Runs Deep
February 28th, 2012
3:39 pm
In the South!!
JOE COOL
February 28th, 2012
3:40 pm
“This year I will be voting AGAINST Obama more than I will be voting for the GOP candidate.”
Good luck with that sport…..your candidates SUCK..
Josey Whales
February 28th, 2012
3:40 pm
K71 – than make a fanatic Muslim happier, you do everytime you go to the gas pump. The Saudis are laughing at you and calling you a capitalist thug aka keyboard gangster
Paul
February 28th, 2012
3:40 pm
Hi Midori!!!
“got your food stamps yet?
I understand Obama sent them to all us on this blog, courtesy of Federal Express.”
Yeah, I did.
Darn things don’t work.
Pretty pics of some gourmet stuff, but the darn things keep falling off the envelopes.
Stevie Ray
February 28th, 2012
3:41 pm
JAY,
To the extent that creditors or GM got paid 100% on the dollar (again taxpayers assuming bank’s risks) then, it is not necessarily a good outcome relative to if bankruptcy, as typically the case, squeezed these creditors to take 20% or so on the dollar. They got a sweetheart deal and I’m certain cash from these winners will flow to your pal. Otherwise, it seems to be a good outcome for unions…however irrelevant they are becoming.
Big Brother
February 28th, 2012
3:42 pm
Democrat candidates have won Michigan in the last 5 presidential voting cycles. And, Democrats will probably win that state this year for 6 in a row. Other than just the GOP primary process, there really is no need for Republicans to even bother with that state.
Besides that the 2010 Census Reapportionment: Michigan was the only state to lose population in the 2010 Census. It will lose one electoral vote, giving it 16 for the 2012, 2016 and 2020 presidential elections. This is the 4th consecutive Census where Michigan has lost at least one electoral vote.
Forget Michigan and move on.
mm
February 28th, 2012
3:43 pm
“Excessive labor cost was likely the biggest culprit in terms of the companies’ larger financial woes. Do you deny that??”
The republican race to poverty.
GOP Motto:
We want to be just like China.
Corporations have reported record profits the last 2 years. But the low info cons keep buying the corporate line that labor costs are killing them.
The GOP politicians are laughing at you gullible voters. They gain your vote, then screw you over. And you cheer them on.
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
3:43 pm
Excessive labor cost was likely the biggest culprit in terms of the companies’ larger financial woes. Do you deny that?? If so, why do you think the unions should have been rewarded with ownership??
Sounds to me like management’s fault that their labor costs were too high. You don’t blame a worker that they’re overpaid, you blame the manager who agreed to pay the worker that money. At least outside of Rightwingnutistan, it seems.
And it wasn’t the UAW directly that got ownership, but their health and pension plans, and I’m pretty sure they were part owners of GM before the bailout AND if their pension plan had gone bust, the taxpayers (through the PBGC) would have been on the hook for that as well.
Bruno
February 28th, 2012
3:44 pm
Here you go, Joe, a CNN article detailing GM’s financial woes. Seems to focus primarily on labor costs.
http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/02/news/companies/gm_will_it_work/index.htm
And let me know when you have some sort of actual plan to keep ‘our gas’ here ‘at home’ instead of putting it on the world market — and doing it in a non-SOSHULIST manner.
Joe–That’s your nonsense, not mine. Never said anything to the effect.
gm
February 28th, 2012
3:44 pm
Each employee received $10,000 portion of the share profits, sounds like hick states like Georgia need more unions, maybe wages would go up and less people living in the trailer parks outside of atlanta””’
Oh but wait, bubba and randy rather stay in his park broke and give all their money to Newt, Deal the rep who could care if they live or die or figure””
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
3:45 pm
Paul – “Darn things don’t work.
Pretty pics of some gourmet stuff, but the darn things keep falling off the envelopes.”
I don’t care who you are, that sh*t’s funny.
Stevie Ray
February 28th, 2012
3:45 pm
I recall Bush approved $13 billion or so at one point to help both manufacturers. Does anyone know how much BO admin invested?
Shawny
February 28th, 2012
3:45 pm
I don’t get the Ford would have gone under too if it werent for the GM and Chrysler bailout.
Based on what?
If GM dissolved, Ford would have sold even more cars, raising even more capital.
Josey Whales
February 28th, 2012
3:47 pm
The bailout for the auto industry was about beefing up the funds for the unions, according to neo-cons. Pretty sure Private(non-union)contractors made out like bandits during the Iraq war, stuff like no bid contracts……………grover norquist do-boys, your game is wack like tim tebow’s
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
3:47 pm
Shawny – Well, just taking a stab at it here, but the fact that the suppliers that supply parts for all three automakers would have probably gone under due to lack of customers. Considering how GM and Chrysler wouldn’t have been buying from them anymore. Like I said, just taking a stab at it.
Stevie Ray
February 28th, 2012
3:47 pm
BYTEME
How is it that after shakedown after shakedown by unions (see Job Banks), managment is responsible for uncompetitive labor costs? I’m not following you.
SPC
February 28th, 2012
3:47 pm
The administration was right on this one.
TaxPayer
February 28th, 2012
3:47 pm
Q. Isn’t this an unprecedented intervention by government in the private economy?
A. No, it’s neither the first time a company has actually been owned by the government nor the biggest intervention in dollar terms. In 1974, the government took over six bankrupt railroad companies and created a new government corporation, Conrail, which it operated for 12 years until it was profitable, and then sold it to private investors. The government’s investment in AIG is three times larger than its $50 billion investment in GM.
Recon 0311 2533
February 28th, 2012
3:49 pm
“Don’t you think Obama would be in serious trouble if this were true?”
First of all I think Obama is in serious trouble. It will be a close election and one he could very well lose as he has vulnerabilities. As for the unions, you’re not trying to say that they were not big winners in relationship to the taxpayers who have not seen the return of bailout dollars. GM stock will need to double before that can happen since it’s GM stock that we’re holding. I think they’re only trading around 26 dollars per share. I think you may be the one who is under informed.
Bruno
February 28th, 2012
3:50 pm
Sounds to me like management’s fault that their labor costs were too high. You don’t blame a worker that they’re overpaid, you blame the manager who agreed to pay the worker that money.
ByteMe–Aren’t you one of the Libs who thinks unions are great?? Power to the people and all that nonsense?? Here you have the results of unions at work, and you still refuse to acknowledge the ugly truth. I have no doubt in my mind that you cheered each and every ridiculous concession the unions strong-armed from the auto companies.
Joseph
February 28th, 2012
3:50 pm
Obama continues to lie about the auto bailout issue….
Joe Hussein Mama
February 28th, 2012
3:50 pm
Bruno — “Joe–That’s your nonsense, not mine. Never said anything to the effect.”
I didn’t say *you* did. But several of your fellow travelers have suggested nationalizing the US petroleum industry right here in recent weeks. If we are to believe, as you said, that that’s BS, then I’d like to hear what the non-socialist conservative plan is for keeping ‘our gas’ here ‘at home.’
Absent some sort of coherent plan from the GOP for accomplishing what you claim *without* nationalization, I plan to go on accusing the GOP faithful of wanting to nationalize our petroleum industry. You are certainly, free, of course, to refute that accusation at your leisure.
TaxPayer
February 28th, 2012
3:50 pm
Q. Doesn’t this agreement reverse many of the normal rules of bankruptcy and capitalism? Isn’t the government favoring UAW members over bondholders, who lent money to GM?
A. Yes and no. This is a better deal than workers often get in bankruptcy, where it is common to see their collective bargaining agreements abrogated, their claims to retiree health benefits wiped out, and their pensions frozen or reduced. But the UAW and its retirees have already given up tens of billions of dollars in wage and health care concessions over the last four years and in this bankruptcy deal to help GM survive. And although GM will still be obligated to fund 75% of the health insurance coverage it promised them, the retirees are not guaranteed lifetime coverage. GM will first have to regain profitability, since half of its future payments to the VEBA will be in the form of company stock.
GM’s current shareholders will see the stock they bought or inherited lose its entire value, and unsecured bondholders will have to accept 10% of the equity in the new GM rather than cash in payment on their bonds. Considering that they probably would not have received anything were it not for the government intervention, this outcome, while unfortunate, is fair. Secured bondholders, on the other hand, will have their bonds repaid in full. Bankruptcy law typically gives high priority to the claims of secured bondholders and that practice is being upheld in this case.
DebbieDoRight
February 28th, 2012
3:51 pm
Also, it appears from the actions of the DNC and the President that they are either very uncertain or fearful of Mitt becoming the GOP nominee. Just observing what has taken place so far today with the get out to vote campaign by the DNC and liberal media figures urging democrats to vote for Rick in MI, the
Yes it’s true!! The DNC is sooooo scared of Romney!!! We have a 24 hour “Romny Watch” at the local airports. Whenever we see romney coming in at any of the airports there’s a guy who shoots a flair up into the sky and the local DNC-Scared-Of-Romneyites rush down to the airport to do the most dastardly, republican quaking, evil thing we can to a republican nominee….
…..We sing cum-by-ah, throw used birth control pill packs at him, and then play unending “Sarah Palin’s Greatest Hits” recordings! We have it looped on “I can see Russia from my house…..I can see Russia from my house….I can see Russian from my house”; until romney runs screaming back to his private plane!!!
Don’t frake with a Dem!! Cum-Bye-Ah Bii$$$tt%%%cch##sss!!
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
3:51 pm
How is it that after shakedown after shakedown by unions (see Job Banks), managment is responsible for uncompetitive labor costs? I’m not following you.
Job Banks?
How is it that management is so weak as to be unable to resist the siren song of labor’s requests for more pay? Is that your experience with your boss? You get any raise you want? Why not?
John Birch
February 28th, 2012
3:52 pm
The cost of the US bailout of GM changes every day with GM’s stock price but a reasonable estimate of the loss (cost to US taxpayers) right now is about $15B. The Treasury says it “saved” 1 million jobs. So if you call spending $150,000 for every job saved a success it’s an unquestionable success.
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
3:52 pm
ByteMe–Aren’t you one of the Libs who thinks unions are great??
Naw, I’m neutral on them. I’m just one of the Libs who makes fun of the alternative reality you’ve constructed for yourself.
Erwin's cat
February 28th, 2012
3:52 pm
Are there really only 3 auto mfg’s in this global economy? I find it hard to believe a global mfg of wire harnesses etc etc provide to only the US big 3
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
3:53 pm
DebbieDoRight – Yeah, I’m using your whole name because you earned it ma’am. That made me laugh.
Bruno
February 28th, 2012
3:53 pm
I didn’t say *you* did. But several of your fellow travelers have suggested
Let’s make a deal then, Joe. I’ll be responsible for my own statements, others will have to be responsible for their own statements. Otay??
Adam
February 28th, 2012
3:53 pm
DDR: You forgot glitter bombs.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 28th, 2012
3:53 pm
Bruno — “Here you go, Joe, a CNN article detailing GM’s financial woes. Seems to focus primarily on labor costs.”
http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/02/news/companies/gm_will_it_work/index.htm
I sure wish you’d read what you post before you post it. From the article:
“Libby said GM’s labor costs are now essentially equal to those of non-union plants operated by its Asian rivals.”
Again, when you’re ready with hard numbers, I’ll be willing to discuss them with you.
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
3:53 pm
estimate of the loss (cost to US taxpayers) right now is about $15B. The Treasury says it “saved” 1 million jobs. So if you call spending $150,000 for every job
someone is math-challenged.
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
3:54 pm
I find it hard to believe a global mfg of wire harnesses etc etc provide to only the US big 3
Heck everyone needs a amber-lit speedometer!
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
3:55 pm
Erwin – You realize that Honda gets their parts shipped in from Japan. Most of them anyway. I would be willing to bet that most of the other manufacturers do the same. Could be why the parts for Hondas work on Hondas and the parts for Fords work on Fords and they’re not so interchangeable.
TaxPayer
February 28th, 2012
3:55 pm
GM, which has been in business in the United States for 100 years, has more than half a million union retirees and dependents drawing health care benefits, but only about 60,000 active workers. The foreign companies operating in the United States, on the other hand, have virtually no retirees and have taken no responsibility for their health insurance. In Japan, by contrast, Toyota, Nissan, and Honda’s retirees all have health insurance coverage paid for two years by the companies and then by national health insurance. The cost is so low that it reportedly does not appear on Toyota’s books.
JohnnyReb
February 28th, 2012
3:55 pm
No Republican is saying the bailout did not work.
We are saying it was not handled in the proper way.
It would have been OK to loan GM or Chrysler money to restructure under normal bankruptcy.
But no, Obama had to include a political payback and put the unions ahead of bond holders.
You want to talk about “values?” It’s a PP value to screw bond holders to pay back your political supporters.
Wait…wait…where I have I heard that before? Oh yea, Solendra, where more money was through down the toilet because of political supporters and they were put ahead of tax payers in the bankruptcy.
Yes, let’s talk values.
Not a Neal Boortz Redneck
February 28th, 2012
3:56 pm
Secured creditors often fall below vendors in a Chapter 11 restructuring.
Its called the Necessity Clause in bankruptcy court. Never listen to conservatives on matters of capitalism – they are idiots.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 28th, 2012
3:57 pm
Bruno — “Let’s make a deal then, Joe. I’ll be responsible for my own statements, others will have to be responsible for their own statements. Otay??”
You seem to have the details mixed up. I stated that some of your fellow travelers wanted to socialize the US petroleum industry, and you said that was BS. So I *am* holding you responsible for your own statements.
If you didn’t want to get involved in what others have said on the topic, then perhaps you would have been well-advised not to *involve yourself.*
Otay?
St Simons - we're on Island Thug time
February 28th, 2012
3:58 pm
4 more hours til we find out if it will be a brokered convention.
I think Rmoney will pull it out in Mich, he’s way ahead in early-vote totals
(people that voted early, not today)
What’s the over/under on turnout – 5?
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
3:59 pm
Secured creditors often fall below vendors in a Chapter 11 restructuring.
In this case, it was the worker’s health and pension trust funds that came before bondholders. And those funds’ shortfalls would have been dumped on taxpayers in a “normal” bankruptcy… had a debtor in possession even bothered to come forward to claim the carcass of the two companies, which in early 2009 was not going to happen.
JohnnyReb
February 28th, 2012
3:59 pm
So Democrats are experts on Capitalism. What a hoot!!
Bruno
February 28th, 2012
3:59 pm
I sure wish you’d read what you post before you post it. From the article:
“Libby said GM’s labor costs are now essentially equal to those of non-union plants operated by its Asian rivals.”
I did read it, Joe. And, yes, following the restructuring, labor costs are now in line with other auto makers. Which implies that they were substantially higher prior to restructuring. Which is exactly what I’ve been saying all along.
If you can’t come up with some better arguments, I’m going to have to put you back on ignore.
Not a Neal Boortz Redneck
February 28th, 2012
4:00 pm
When a spate of bankruptcies hit the airline industry the Pilot’s unions were put ahead of secured creditors.
What good is an airline with no pilots?
This is also called the Critical Vendor Clause. It dates back to railroad bankruptcy law in the 19th century as they were allowed to buy coal over bond coupon payments.
JohnnyReb
February 28th, 2012
4:00 pm
If you guys were one of the Bond Holders, you would be singing a different tune.
Adam
February 28th, 2012
4:00 pm
Yes, let’s talk values.
No, let’s talk VALUE.
The value of getting bin Laden
The value of ending the Iraq War
The value of helping people in a time of need
The value of caring for our elderly as needed
The value of equal protection under the law
The value of separating church and state.
The value of minimum health insurance coverage
The value of the GM bailout
etc
Adam
February 28th, 2012
4:01 pm
So Democrats are experts on Capitalism. What a hoot!!
Joke’s on you: http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/02/28/433530/stocks-better-democratic-president/
DebbieDoRight
February 28th, 2012
4:01 pm
Are there really only 3 auto mfg’s in this global economy? I find it hard to believe a global mfg of wire harnesses etc etc provide to only the US big 3
Although I’d like to think you’re concerned for everyone around the world, I’m beginning to think you’re being “somewhat” sarcastic.
So to answer you in kind, Americans should be MORE concerned with AMERICAN companies; especially American auto companies.
If for nothing else, than for the safety of our Armed forces, Intelligence Communities, teachers, nurses, doctors et al. who drive American cars daily.
Our Presidents, even the republican ones, are taxied around in American vehicles. Would you really like for China to build the car that drives the President of the US around?
Are you a communist? Why do you hate America?!????
JOE COOL
February 28th, 2012
4:02 pm
“someone is math-challenged.”
Someone isnt a “snob”…lol
Erwin's cat
February 28th, 2012
4:03 pm
ir,
I’m not suggesting that the parts are modular or interchangeable, what I am suggesting is that if GM had filed, the suppliers would still have other customers and would not go under as some have suggested…chances are if a mfg is producing a wire harness for 1 auto mfg they are likely supplying to them all or most…granted not the same harness, but a different one from the same place…there are 37 “big” auto mfg’s that I am aware at least in 2010
JohnnyReb
February 28th, 2012
4:04 pm
Not a Neal Bortz Redneck – put your shingle out yet?
Not a Neal Boortz Redneck
February 28th, 2012
4:04 pm
Actually, Johnny Reb, our top capitalists are liberal.
From Buffett to that young whippersnapper Mark Zuckerberg. Liberal billionaires easily outnumber conservative billionaires (leaving the inheritors out – like the Walton family)
TaxPayer
February 28th, 2012
4:04 pm
If you were one of the secured bondholders, your tune would be “I got mine”.
DebbieDoRight
February 28th, 2012
4:04 pm
Democrats that know more about finance than YOU….
………Warren Buffet
………..Bill Gates
…………..Orpah Winfrey
………………..Snoop Doggy Dogg
Recon 0311 2533
February 28th, 2012
4:05 pm
Adam, you’re one for eight. Bragging rights on the other seven are premature at best.
Obama is over
February 28th, 2012
4:07 pm
You are right. President BUSH made the correct decision to bail out the domestic auto makers. However, in Obamaland where everyone is treated with the same set of fair rules and regulations, friends of Obama’s are treated more fairly than others. Traditionally when a company files for bankruptcy protection, net operating losses are thrown out.In the bailouts of GM, AIG, Citigroup, and Fannie/Freddie, net operating losses were allowed to be maintained. Thus, none of these companies are going to pay any corporate taxes for at least the next 10 years. AIG’s most recent earnings of $19.8 billion included $17.7 billion in tax credits. So management bonuses were based on $19.8 billion in profit versus the $2.1 B they actually made. At GM, the company is paying 47,500 union members $7000 bonuses based on $10 B in profits. The 15,000 non-union employees are having their benefits cut. And so it goes in Obamaland…where some people are more equal than others. GM gets most of its profits from sales overseas. Since they won’t have to pay corporate taxes for the foreseable future, they will not be subject to Obama’s new Global Fairness Tax he introduced last week. Like most Obama programs, we don’t really know what it is, but it will only affect successful companies doing business overseas. Maybe you are satisfied with 2% growth, but the only thing these new tax burdens are going to stimulate are the personal incomes of corrupt lobbyists pushing the Obama administration for new loopholes in our insanely complex tax code. And that is just the way Obama wants it. He wants to control all of the purse strings and pick winners and losers.
Bruno
February 28th, 2012
4:07 pm
“The value of getting bin Laden”–10 or more years of intelligence work paid off.
“The value of ending the Iraq War”–on pretty much the schedule laid out by Bush.
“The value of helping people in a time of need”–You’re giving me warm fuzzies with that one.
“The value of caring for our elderly as needed”–You mean by slashing funding to Medicare??
“The value of equal protection under the law”–??
“The value of separating church and state.”–Which occurred by the State ordering the Church to pay for services which are contrary to their own doctrines??
“The value of minimum health insurance coverage”–And when you compare it to the massive costs involved, not a good deal in any way.
Got anything else??
The value of the GM bailout
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
4:08 pm
the suppliers would still have other customers and would not go under as some have suggested
You really don’t understand manufacturing do you? Although a part can look “generic” like a wire harness, it’s really a very specific part and the construction of that part requires time to not only get right, but it also requires a portion of a manufacturing facility to create it. Now if that part’s suddenly not needed (along with hundreds of other parts at similar plants in other places), it’s not like they can just go to another car manufacturer and say “we have these parts that we create to fit a Chevy Geo, want to buy them to use in your Honda Accord? It doesn’t work that way. They first have to take down the line, then retool it and restock the sub-parts for it, then they have to find someone to buy it (and those contracts are done more than a year in advance) and then they have to train their people in how to make it and then start making them in the necessary quantity.
Again, similar to the horse-and-buggy statement earlier: stuff like this happening overnight is beyond disruptive to a company’s cashflow.
Erwin's cat
February 28th, 2012
4:09 pm
So what IS an “American” car anyway?…don’t cite me a brand, cite me a qualifier like…”it’s assembled here” or something else that qualifies as an “American” car by your definition
ragnar danneskjold
February 28th, 2012
4:09 pm
There are more taxpayers paying off the UAW extortion than there are beneficiaries. I’d say the GOP has it right. Side note, WSJ has an amusing essay about how every auto company in the world is building its plants in the US, but outside Michigan, mostly due to UAW avoidance.
JOE COOL
February 28th, 2012
4:09 pm
DebbieDoRight
February 28th, 2012
4:04 pm
lol…good one. Cons dont look to kindly on “rappers” knowing more than them.
JOE COOL
February 28th, 2012
4:09 pm
“Dow closes above 13,000 for 1st time since 2008 ”
SOCIALIST!!!!!!!!
Not a Neal Boortz Redneck
February 28th, 2012
4:10 pm
General Motors Company has agreed to bailout American Axle & Manufacturing Holdings Inc. by giving the key supplier $110 million in exchange for an equity interest in the company it once owned.
Critics have maintained GM sold American Axle for song at a corporate garage sale in the early 1990s, but GM continues to be AAM’s largest and most important customer, accounting for almost 80% of its sales in the second quarter.
American Axle also was forced by its creditors to agree to several restrictions on its operations. (Sep 2009)
I hope my HTML works. Anyway American Axle is an example of a critical vendor.
Joe The Plumber Too
February 28th, 2012
4:12 pm
Gotta love that Sheriff Joe out in Arizona (besides having a great first name), he has the la raza racebaiters after him, the obama racebaiters, I mean Justice Dept., even george sorryholes and his deep pockets after him. Does he hide and lay low, hell no, He puts up a McDonalds type billboard outside his tent city showing his “number served” since opening 19 years ago. 430,000 scumbags and counting. Got a check going out to his re-election campaign in the morning. There is an American to be proud of.
real john
February 28th, 2012
4:13 pm
Not often I agree with you Jay.
At the time, I was pretty torn on this one. I kind of when with Bush on this one. As long as the unions were willing to make some concessions, it would be foolish to have that many people lose their jobs.
It was kind of like the TARP bailout. While I wasn’t wild about bailing out bankers, we didn’t really have a choice. We were literally very close to economic meltdown and a run on the banks. The more I have read about how close we were to a total monetary collapse, the more scary it really is. Our entire financial system is based on confidence…that really is it…sorry for the sidebar there.
I agree, sometimes you have to swallow your pride and admit a mistake and comend someone.
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
4:13 pm
I’d say the GOP has it right.
I’m SHOCKED, raggy.
JohnnyReb
February 28th, 2012
4:13 pm
JOE COOL
February 28th, 2012
4:09 pm
DebbieDoRight
February 28th, 2012
4:04 pm
lol…good one. Cons dont look to kindly on “rappers”…..
_______________________________________________
Well, at least you have one thing right.
Erwin's cat
February 28th, 2012
4:14 pm
ByteMe – “You really don’t understand manufacturing do you?”
No I think you post illustrates your “understanding” of the subject… FoxConn may have an opinion different from yours
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
4:14 pm
I agree, sometimes you have to swallow your pride and admit a mistake and comend someone.
Holy crap, who let the adult into the room??
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
4:15 pm
FoxConn may have an opinion different from yours
Slave labor? Your example is based on slave labor??
DebbieDoRight
February 28th, 2012
4:15 pm
B: The value of separating church and state.”–Which occurred by the State ordering the Church to pay for services which are contrary to their own doctrines??
Oooh gooodie!! I was waiting for someone to bring that up!! (thanks!)
So if one one of the church doctrines (Let’s take Radical Mormonism a la Warren Jeffs); is to marry preteen girls, (a dozen at a time); force young girls into marriage to some really OLD and kinky men, then, according to your above comment you’d be for that correct?
And….let’s not leave out the boys. If NAMBLA started a nationwide religious chapter, would you be down for them “excercising their Christian rights/doctrines” by openly marrying young boys (and then divorcing them and marrying their younger cousins when the boys hit puberty?)
One more for the road — how about Muslims (since you guys ALWAYS forget about them when talking about religious freedoms); judging by your comment would you be tolerant of a Muslim faith that allowed for the skinning of non-believers / christians?
They’d all be upholding their religious doctrines…..
Joe Hussein Mama
February 28th, 2012
4:15 pm
Bruno — “I did read it, Joe. And, yes, following the restructuring, labor costs are now in line with other auto makers. Which implies that they were substantially higher prior to restructuring. Which is exactly what I’ve been saying all along.”
‘Implies’ is not ‘proves.’ I asked you for hard numbers, and the best you can do is ‘implies?’ If your point is so easy to prove, then one wonders why you’re having such a hard time actually *proving* it.
“If you can’t come up with some better arguments, I’m going to have to put you back on ignore.”
Be still my beating heart.
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
4:16 pm
Erwin – You know, you’re right, ignore what I said about companies like Honda getting their parts from their “home country.” And an “American” auto company is a company that is based/headquartered in America. Everyone knows what constitutes an “American” car, but I guess it is fun for you to nitpick. I mean, if we’re going with just ones that are assembled here, then the Honda Pilot would be, but the Civic (assembled in Canada) and the S2000 (assembled in Japan) wouldn’t be.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 28th, 2012
4:16 pm
JohnnyReb — “If you guys were one of the Bond Holders, you would be singing a different tune.”
If you took a 100% haircut in a bankruptcy, you’d be singing an even more different tune.
Chuck
February 28th, 2012
4:17 pm
In the 80’s I was agains President Reagan’s bailout of Chrysler and I was against President Obama’s bailing out of G.M. and Chrysler. BAD BUSINESSES ARE SUPPOSE TO FAIL. It would have been a major blow to the economy to have both automakers close at once, but in the long run it would have made for a stronger economy, that is not falsely propped up with taxpayer’s money. If G.M., Chrysler, and Ford were all gone, if there was a demand for american made auto’s someone would start a new company. Anytime that either Republicans or Democrats do anything, it is for the betterment of them and their party, not the country.
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
4:17 pm
ByteMe – That is rare. Someone who is willing to admit they were wrong about something. Man, there aren’t many who come here, frequently or infrequently that can do that honestly.
Not a Neal Boortz Redneck
February 28th, 2012
4:18 pm
Incidentally there was one company the Feds seized in 2008 where the bondholders were completely wiped out.
Washington Mutual – $28 billion in bonds existed one day and the next were worth nothing. The GM bondholders did well.
carlosgvv
February 28th, 2012
4:18 pm
It’s clear that Romney, Gingrich and Santorum are committed to catering solely to the crazed Tea Party base. Let’s just hope we still have a large number of Democrats and sensilbe Republicans voting in the upcoming election.
pogo
February 28th, 2012
4:18 pm
Has GM paid back the taxpayers dollars that Obama used to prop them up Jay? Will they ever? You know the answer (then again after yesterday maybe you don’t) and that is NO. And why? Because their stock will never again attain a level at which it would take to pay us taxpayers back if OUR investment was sold on the market. NEVER! The taxpayers of America lost on the GM and Chrysler deal. Anyone that isn’t totally blind can see this. Obama was paying back the Union leadership for their support. Nothing more, nothing less.
Jay’s slobbering love affair with Obama continues. American Journalism is dead.
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
4:21 pm
Man, there aren’t many who come here, frequently or infrequently that can do that honestly.
Yes indeed. Someone to be encouraged.
Erwin's cat
February 28th, 2012
4:22 pm
ByteMe – Not slave labor…for one no one is forced to work there for 2) I though we were talking about retooling, retraining etc as product requirements, designs and needs change..
ir – not “really” nitpicking, just trying to add some perspective
Joe Hussein Mama
February 28th, 2012
4:22 pm
ogop — “Jay’s slobbering love affair with Obama continues. American Journalism is dead.”
Find those headlines on Drudge, did you?
AT
February 28th, 2012
4:24 pm
Obama statement is misleading. GM and Chrysler did go bankrupt, at his hand. Not that it would not have happened anyway. But by his own admission, the US gov’t is propping up an industry, that as currently built, no investor would touch. He then signs the deed over to his biggest contributors in the deal on the backs of taxpayers for one and at the expense of bond-holders who actually held the company. Nothing has changed except the infusion of BILLIONS of taxpayer dollars, never to be seen again. Not to mention/add-in the other billions spent with cash-for-clunkers, propping up the Volt, etc. There’s a reason Detroit is in a hole and now we are spending taxpayer money to keep it there. Some success.
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
4:26 pm
ByteMe – Being able to admit when you’re wrong is one thing, but being an adult is overrated. People expect you to act all “grown-up” and stuff and don’t get when you’re joking as much.
Bruno
February 28th, 2012
4:26 pm
So if one one of the church doctrines (Let’s take Radical Mormonism a la Warren Jeffs); is to marry preteen girls, (a dozen at a time); force young girls into marriage to some really OLD and kinky men, then, according to your above comment you’d be for that correct?
DDR–I hope you’re a better lawyer in real life. My point is in regard to the Church being forced to pay for a service which contradicts their core beliefs. Which is very different from forcing their employees to forgo contraception altogether as a condition of employment. Not funding something /= prohibiting it. No forced beliefs in play here. How you morphed that into a charge of using religious belief as a cover for violating sexual consent laws, I guess only you can answer.
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
4:26 pm
for one no one is forced to work there for 2) I though we were talking about retooling, retraining etc as product requirements, designs and needs change..
Not to see the news reports on the place.
As for retooling and all that, yes, even for iPods, there’s a lead time for change orders. Most definitely. I worked in manufacturing for a while, so I’ve been there during a product line change. And it still ignores the reality of contracts in the industry having long lead times.
JOE COOL
February 28th, 2012
4:26 pm
“Anytime that either Republicans or Democrats do anything, it is for the betterment of them and their party, not the country.”
SOOOOO, the bailouts were bad for the country?
ByteMe - Liberal Thug
February 28th, 2012
4:27 pm
People expect you to act all “grown-up” and stuff and don’t get when you’re joking as much
Yeah, but the chairs at family gatherings are the soft ones instead of the hard ones.
DebbieDoRight
February 28th, 2012
4:28 pm
lol…good one. Cons dont look to kindly on “rappers” knowing more than them.
Knowing more and MAKING more!! It makes the lather up like mad dogs!!
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
4:29 pm
Erwin – If you’re not “really” nitpicking, then what, to you is an “American” car? When I get in my Civic, I don’t think of it as a “Canadian” car, I think of it as a “Japanese” car. And my brother-in-law that works at the Honda plant in Alabama doesn’t profess to make “American” cars, he makes “Japanese” cars. Also, according to him, all the executives/company reps that are there aren’t “American” they’re “Japanese.”
lynnie gal
February 28th, 2012
4:29 pm
Figures GOP is spinning it’s head off about the success of the auto bailout and not convincing anyone who hasn’t already drank the Republican Kool-Aid. Those people are nuts. Oh, and also stupid.
Bruno
February 28th, 2012
4:30 pm
Well, nothing but Lameness here this afternoon.
Later……
Butch Cassidy
February 28th, 2012
4:30 pm
For those whi bring up Solyndra on a regular basis, may I ask if you’ve gotten over this loss yet?:
Twenty-five years ago today, Ronald Reagan shocked the world — and most of his scientific and military advisers — by announcing a plan with the “ultimate goal of eliminating the threat posed by strategic nuclear missiles.” A quarter-century and $120 billion later, the United States has an anti-missile system that can certainly knock a single target out of the sky, with lots of advanced notice. But it’s not clear how much more our missile defense system can do.
By the way, that was written in 2008.
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
4:31 pm
ByteMe – Speak for yourself, we don’t have soft chairs.
DDR – This “con” loves some rappers. Snoop isn’t really one of them, but put on some Lil’ Wayne, or Busta, or Ludacris, or Eminem and I’m a very happy little con.
getalife
February 28th, 2012
4:31 pm
I suggest you cons follow bruno’s lead.
Cut and run cons.
You lost this issue.
Bruno
February 28th, 2012
4:32 pm
Oh, and in case any of you missed it, the 1% tip story turned out to be one more Liberal Lie:
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/trending-now/banker-1-tip-hoax-real-receipt-obtained-195827093.html
Erwin's cat
February 28th, 2012
4:33 pm
ByteMe – research how long it took FoxConn to retool when Apple changed from a plastic screen to gorilla glass…or other changes
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
4:33 pm
Butch – I’m personally just glad we haven’t had a reason to test it yet. But then again, I don’t like the idea of other people shooting large missiles at us.
Chuck
February 28th, 2012
4:35 pm
SOOOOO, the bailouts were bad for the country?
In the short term, no, it keep a lot of people from being out of work, but in the long term, yes it was awful for the country, bad company’s need to fail and go away. What happens in 10 to 20 years when we have to bail out these failing companies again, when will it end, I am only in my 40’s and I have lived to see Chrysler bailed out for the 2nd time. When do we finally say that this company is no good at the business it is in and it needs to be gone.
pogo
February 28th, 2012
4:36 pm
Maybe I was hasty in stating that “American Journalism is Dead”. Read this from the NYT’s. Even the Times, with its history of liberalism gives glimmers of hope for objective journalism once in a while and that is exactly why I subscribe to them. Obama is using any means he can to maintain absolute secrecy in his administration and absolute control of the journalists and till now he has done an excellent job of it. What exactly has he got to hide? His corrupt total control Chicago style political style is dangerous not only to journalism to but all of us.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/27/business/media/white-house-uses-espionage-act-to-pursue-leak-cases-media-equation.html?_r=1
Is this what you want Jay? Apparently so. In my industry this is known as the “chilling effect” towards whistle blowers which is something that we do not want or desire. If there are problems, we want to know about them. The Obama administration is carrying control of the press to a whole new height and raglets such as the AJC are helping him.
jconservative
February 28th, 2012
4:37 pm
First, a pat on the back, or a knife in the back, if you prefer, to George W for starting Obama on the trail of bailing out auto companies. It was his idea and he started the bailout and he gets the credit/blame.
Second, there was no bank or syndicated group of banks prepared to lend 60 plus billion dollars in the middle of the largest credit crunch since 1929. And without an injection of outside capital both GM and Chrysler would not have emerged from bankruptcy.
Romney of all people should know this. And he does. As Jay points out, he made a political decision to appeal to the right of the base.
Butch Cassidy
February 28th, 2012
4:37 pm
(ir)Rational – ” I’m personally just glad we haven’t had a reason to test it yet. But then again, I don’t like the idea of other people shooting large missiles at us.”
Me either, but apparently when Reagan wanted something experimental with limited success, the wallet just flew open with no questions asked. However with Solyndra, you’d think that Obama just peed on John Boehners shoes.
DebbieDoRight
February 28th, 2012
4:37 pm
Bruno: DDR–I hope you’re a better lawyer in real life. My point is in regard to the Church being forced to pay for a service which contradicts their core beliefs. Which is very different from forcing their employees to forgo contraception altogether as a condition of employment. Not funding something /= prohibiting it. No forced beliefs in play here. How you morphed that into a charge of using religious belief as a cover for violating sexual consent laws, I guess only you can answer
Poor, poor, poor, misguided Bruno. You think that the “following religious doctrines” would stop at HEALTHCARE? HAHAHAHAH!! Have you no concept how the law works?
Did the end of slavery only apply to the AFRICAN slaves in america or ALL slaves?
Did prohibition only apply to ONE STATE in the union or ALL the states?
When women got the righ to vote, did it only apply to WHITE women or ALL women?
Bruno — I don’t want to believe…no i SHUDDER to believe, that you and the GOPERS can be that damn dumb!
OK — here’s what you can do to make the law ONLY apply to Healthcare and not all areas of religion.
Close your eyes, bend over, click your heels and say “It’ll only be aplied to healthcare, It’ll only be applied to healthcare.”
Then watch as religion gets rammed up your backside.
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
4:38 pm
Butch – Yeah, pretty sure he did. Careful or you’ll be next.
JOE COOL
February 28th, 2012
4:38 pm
DebbieDoRight
February 28th, 2012
4:28 pm
So true. I remember i came across this article and it floored me at how so much hatred & bigotry comes from people who hate on “rappers/musicians”. Ever need to see hatred in this world, look right her:
Birdman plans to wager $5 million on Super Bowl
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/birdman-wants-wager-5-million-super-bowl-212133798.html
Erwin's cat
February 28th, 2012
4:39 pm
ir -my honest answer is I don’t know what constitutes an auto’s heritage
I lean toward where the money goes in the end, and/or where it was designed and engineered
one could argue it’d based on who got a bailout – but I would hate to exclude Ford from being an American car based on that criteria
jm
February 28th, 2012
4:39 pm
Cons need to wake up to the great job the Republican House has done. The economy has recovered nicely since Republicans got the House back and stopped the Obama madness. Millions of jobs added. Stock market crosses 13,000.
Good job Republicans.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 28th, 2012
4:40 pm
Bruno — “My point is in regard to the Church being forced to pay for a service which contradicts their core beliefs.”
“Conscientious scruples have not, in the course of the long struggle for religious toleration, relieved the individual from obedience to a general law not aimed at the promotion or restriction of religious beliefs. The mere possession of religious convictions which contradict the relevant concerns of a political society does not relieve the citizen from the discharge of political responsibilities.”
. . .
“The present case does not present such a hybrid situation, but a free exercise claim unconnected with any communicative activity or parental right. Respondents urge us to hold, quite simply, that when otherwise prohibitable conduct is accompanied by religious convictions, not only the convictions but the conduct itself must be free from governmental regulation. We have never held that, and decline to do so now.”
Antonin Scalia, in the majority Opinion of the Court,
Employment Division, Department of Human Resources of Oregon v. Smith
494 U.S. 872 (1990)
TaxPayer
February 28th, 2012
4:41 pm
Why didn’t Obama make the DOW go to 14,000 like I wanted!
Jeff
February 28th, 2012
4:41 pm
Jay, the speech was actually in Washington at the UAW conference, not in Detroit.
carlosgvv
February 28th, 2012
4:42 pm
DebbieDoRight
As a matter of fact, Lincon’s initial Emanciation Proclomation only applied to those States that had left the Union.But,of course, you can’t be bothered with mere facts.
getalife
February 28th, 2012
4:42 pm
Look at his actions.
Then look at the outcome of his actions.
How are you going to beat him?
No, you can’t.
Butch Cassidy
February 28th, 2012
4:42 pm
TaxPayer – “Why didn’t Obama make the DOW go to 14,000 like I wanted!”
It would have, but Obama needed the investment capital to pay off his union buddies. Haven’t you been following along?
jewcowboy
February 28th, 2012
4:42 pm
You folks do realize that what Jay wrote about is not whether the bailouts were good or bad, necessary or unnecessary, rather it is about the GOP’s strategy in a very important state in November for both parties, right?
The bailouts are a lesson in semantics at this point, the GOP’s strategy for winning in November is still very pertinent.
And they seem to be doing a p!ss poor job. In an election, which by all accounts should be a cake walk, they are royally f%$^ing up left and right. Independents, which the GOP needs to win in November, are running away from the GOP’s insanity and straight in to the welcoming arms of Obama.
So for those righties on here, rather than rail at the wind on how evil the auto bailouts are, perhaps you should start railing at your GOP leaders for throwing an election that should be shoo in.
DebbieDoRight
February 28th, 2012
4:43 pm
DDR – This “con” loves some rappers. Snoop isn’t really one of them, but put on some Lil’ Wayne, or Busta, or Ludacris, or Eminem and I’m a very happy little con.
Eeewwww Little Wayne!!?!!?!
All he talks about are STRIP CLUBS!! He’s not a real rapper — he’s a wannabe!
He uses Dr. Seuss to write his hooks:
Saw a stripper today, today
Saw a stripper Today
I thought she was o.k o.k.
But when I tried to touch her booty she ran away.
===============
His rhymes sound like that ^^ Or something equally as stupid.
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
4:44 pm
Erwin – I’m not sure how you could argue that a company wasn’t American because they didn’t get a bailout. Besides, there are plenty of other, smaller car companies that didn’t get bailouts that are still American (Fisker, Panoz, Tesla to name three).
Joe Hussein Mama
February 28th, 2012
4:44 pm
DDR — “Saw a stripper today, today
Saw a stripper Today
I thought she was o.k o.k.
But when I tried to touch her booty she ran away.”
Sounds like Lenny Kravitz to me.
Haven’t seen you in a while, Miz DoRight. How are you and Dudley?
DebbieDoRight
February 28th, 2012
4:44 pm
As a matter of fact, Lincon’s initial Emanciation Proclomation only applied to those States that had left the Union.But,of course, you can’t be bothered with mere facts.
It was ratified in the Senate to include ALL states. Duh!
nelson howard
February 28th, 2012
4:44 pm
The GOP got it right, with the success that the auto industry CLAIMS the stok would have to double for the federal government under Pres Obamas leadership to recoup their money
jewcowboy
February 28th, 2012
4:45 pm
DebbieDoRight,
“Or something equally as stupid.”
http://voices.yahoo.com/4-lil-wayne-lyrics-prove-hes-either-3103627.html
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
4:45 pm
DDR – Give me a break, I’m a 27 year old white boy from the country. But I still like Lil’ Wayne. I don’t care what you say.
TaxPayer
February 28th, 2012
4:46 pm
Obama better not cave and give the Republicans $2.50 a gallon gas and not give me DOW 14,000! That would just be so unfair for him to just practice socialism for the Republicans.
Butch Cassidy
February 28th, 2012
4:47 pm
nelson howard – ” with the success that the auto industry CLAIMS the stok would have to double for the federal government under Pres Obamas leadership to recoup their money.
And to bring gas down to $2.50 a gallon as the GOP CLAIMS can be done, they would have to nationalize the oil industry under Republican leadership. Damn Socialists!
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
4:48 pm
DDR – And “How to Love” and “No Love” are both good songs. Especially if you watch the videos and see what he was talking about (assuming you don’t get it from the lyrics).
Erwin's cat
February 28th, 2012
4:48 pm
ir – I don’t buy that argument either (my “some people” proposition)…i was just sayin’
I’ll stick with where it is designed and engineered…with that said several components are designed engineered and assembled elsewhere…I am sure they were design to requirement given to them
jewcowboy
February 28th, 2012
4:49 pm
TaxPayer,
“Obama better not cave and give the Republicans $2.50 a gallon gas and not give me DOW 14,000!”
The only way Newt is going to get $2.50 gas is too make demand take plunge…and the only way to do that is to plunge the economy back into a recession. There goes 14,000…
The upside…Republicans excel at plunging economy’s into recessions.
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
4:49 pm
Erwin – Yeah, I can agree with that easily enough.
AmVet
February 28th, 2012
4:49 pm
Here’s to a broken convention in Tampa.
Not that it matters a tinker’s damn to me, or ultimately to the nation, but it would be great spectacle and mucho fun seeing even more connibalization! (sic intentionally)
DebbieDoRight
February 28th, 2012
4:50 pm
So true. I remember i came across this article and it floored me at how so much hatred & bigotry comes from people who hate on “rappers/musicians”.
No I got a good one for you. A few months back when P. Diddy gave his son a really expensive car (can’t remember what type) for his Sweet 16 birthday BUT he also gave the kid a DRIVER to drive the car around (the man didn’t make his millions by being stoopid).
The anti-black, gansta, blah, blah, blah rhetoric on the blogs were insane!! People were angry like it was THEIR money he gave away!!
However, on the flip side, the month before this 16 year old girl (who received a YACHT on her before); was lost at sea while she tried to sail around the world alone. Not a freaking WORD about that.
Thulsa Doom
February 28th, 2012
4:52 pm
“I plan to go on accusing the GOP faithful of wanting to nationalize our petroleum industry.”
Joe Mama,
Well that is pretty much what libs do- make baseless accusations.
josef
February 28th, 2012
4:53 pm
The Emacipation Proclamation exempted territories under Union control.
Right Lane Ends
February 28th, 2012
4:53 pm
I am white. I hate being white. I am trendy. I am an elitist. I am ashamed to be white. I hate the GOP. I find boards to rant on and tell everybody how much I hate white, southern, republican Christians. I hate them because they hate people. I hate people who hate people. I am intolerant of people who are intolerant. Im am a liberal. I am the best. If you are not a liberal you are stupid. I am not stoopid. Finally, read this out loud and ye shall know truth: “Im sofa king we todd did”
Joe Hussein Mama
February 28th, 2012
4:54 pm
DDR — “a really expensive car (can’t remember what type)”
I seem to recall that it was a Maybach. Quarter million and up. Given that it was Diddy buying the car, I expect it was tricked out to a considerably greater cost than the list price.
pogo
February 28th, 2012
4:55 pm
“Cut and run cons”. Not on your life Getajob. We are going to be around for a long, long, LONG time. For those like yourself who don’t have a “dog in the hunt” so to speak (i.e. you don’t have to pay for Obama’s spending as you don’t work and pay taxes) anything you have to say is pretty much irrelavent. The ones who will ultimately make the difference are those of us who still have to pay for this country’s spending. And our group will grow as the young and the working suddenly realize they are paying for a bunch of spoiled parasites who are content to take and take from the system without any cost to themselves .All Obama is doing is dumping the debt into the laps of the young to placate a bunch of spoiled boomers and how long do you think the young are going to accept that? It will get really ugly a lot sooner than you think. The young are soon going to grow to hate the “baby boomers” and for good reason. The boomers are in fact a spoiled generation of people who from the onset knew that they could rely upon the government to bail them out therefore they lived their lives as they wanted, not as they should have.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 28th, 2012
4:55 pm
Doom — “Well that is pretty much what libs do- make baseless accusations.”
Well, once you and the rest of the cons come up with an actual plan to do what you’re saying *without* nationalizing the US petroleum industry, hurry back here and tell us about it so we can stop making the baseless accusations, k? (laughing)
Butch Cassidy
February 28th, 2012
4:55 pm
Just a little food for thought the next time you start dreaming of your GOP superman lowering the price of gas to $2.50 a gallon:
“Political rhetoric is all it is,” said Guy Caruso, an economist who led the Energy Information Administration and worked as an analyst at the Central Intelligence Agency.
“Short of price controls, which were a disaster during the Nixon administration, politicians can’t do much to change the price of gasoline,”
AND
“This is absurd,” said Paul Bledsoe, a Bipartisan Policy Center scholar who spent more than 20 years working on energy policy in Washington. “Obviously the price of oil is set on a global market. In the immediate term there is almost nothing you can do.”
AND
Oil is a global commodity — it can be shipped anywhere around the world. Its price is determined largely by global supply and demand.
The United States would have to remove itself from the global trade in oil and gasoline to set its own prices, a move that could set the country up for a supply shortage and that most economists would not support.
Caruso said it’s just not a practical idea. “This is a global market with fungible supplies,” he said. “We can’t isolate ourselves.”
AND
The world currently consumes 89 million barrels a day, and by then would likely be using over 100 million barrels. By the time OPEC finished cutting production to adjust for the increased supply, Americans might save 3 cents per gallon.
“The notion that somehow we can produce so much domestically that we will move the global price is incorrect,” Bledsoe said.
AND FINALLY
The Gingrich campaign did not immediately respond to a request for comment on how the predicted $2.50 price point was reached
TaxPayer
February 28th, 2012
4:55 pm
Have any Republicans offered up a plausible approach to giving us $2.50 per gallon gasoline without either plunging us into another recession or nationalizing oil and gas industries or something similar.
Paul
February 28th, 2012
4:56 pm
Bruno
“I hope you’re a better lawyer in real life. My point is in regard to the Church being forced to pay for a service which contradicts their core beliefs. ”
Was this not settled in the SC case, United States v Lee, cited by Jay
http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2012/02/10/arguing-for-obama-justice-antonin-scalia/
opinion by Justice Scalia, regarding the Amish who set up a business and did not want to pay Social Security taxes on employee wages?
““When followers of a particular sect enter into commercial activity as a matter of choice, the limits they accept on their own conduct as a matter of conscience and faith are not to be superimposed on the statutory schemes that are binding on others in that activity. Granting an exemption from social security taxes to an employer operates to impose the employer’s religious faith on the employees.”
“Respondents urge us to hold, quite simply, that when otherwise prohibitable conduct is accompanied by religious convictions, not only the convictions but the conduct itself must be free from governmental regulation. We have never held that, and decline to do so now.”
Or are you arguing the Court was wrong on this principle, which may be interesting to discuss, but doesn’t argue for the law.
MrLiberty
February 28th, 2012
4:57 pm
Yes, someone has spoken out against stealing money from one group of people to bail out a company that has been a perpetual failure for the past 2 decades. Oh, the horrors.
If you believe that the ends justify the means (not that I actually believe the data on GM’s “success”, then you pretty much will approve of anything. By the way, only those republicans who have opposed every bailout, handout, subsidy, protectionist policies, etc. has any moral right to speak out against this horrible bailout. Of course the only republican who has been consistent is Ron Paul – as always.
The bottom line is that bankruptcy would not have been the end of automaking in the US. It would have allowed other entrepreneurs to buy up the assets at rock bottom prices, thus allowing them to get a fresh start at a low cost. That is the way malivestment/failure is supposed to be handled in the marketplace. It is not handled through bailouts and by destroying contracts in favor of your friends in the UAW ( which of course is the unconstitutional actions the Federal Government engaged in).
(ir)Rational
February 28th, 2012
4:57 pm
I’m going home for the evening. Y’all have fun and play nice.
DebbieDoRight
February 28th, 2012
4:57 pm
jewcowboy — Lil Wayne is functionally retarded!! Thanks for that!
Joe: Haven’t seen you in a while, Miz DoRight. How are you and Dudley
I’m fine. Dudley not so much. He’s due to go back to Afghanistan and as you know they’re rioting and murdering people over there. I’m trying to talk him into staying here, (or at least staying in Germany until this thing boils over) but; I think I offended his manhood or something when I brought it up. Who knows?
Anywhooooo – I still look good, and that’s all that matters!
JOSE
February 28th, 2012
4:58 pm
JAY doesn’t get it……… yes there weren’t any private investors for GM as a whole to finance a restructuring…………….. but that supposes that is the only option………. it was not………. 2 great options were not explored
1) put GM and Chrysler in bankruptcy and have the TARP $ used as the financing………. therefore the federal govt was only the $ and the courts (judge) would have been the one to rule on business decisions since they have more experience than the Obama Adm.
2) Break up GM and Chrysler into smaller companies to align with private investors and banks……. Pontiac, Saturn, Jeep, etc would have been attractive as single companies without the Parent Co. baggage……… Asian companies would have bought into those seperated companies to get inroads into the US……. Breaking up MaBell was great for the phone industry……….Breaking up GM and Chrysler would have been great for the auto industry……..
josef
February 28th, 2012
4:58 pm
TAXI
“Have any Republicans offered up a plausible approach….”
You could’ve stopped there, imuo…
jewcowboy
February 28th, 2012
4:59 pm
Joe Hussein Mama,
“I seem to recall that it was a Maybach.”
Jay-Z and Kanye have expressed their views about Maybach’s.
http://youtu.be/BoEKWtgJQAU
Joe Hussein Mama
February 28th, 2012
5:00 pm
Paul — “Or are you arguing the Court was wrong on this principle, which may be interesting to discuss, but doesn’t argue for the law.”
Perhaps Bruno fancies himself a better attorney in real life than Justice Scalia.
Paul
February 28th, 2012
5:00 pm
afternoon, jewcowboy
“You folks do realize that what Jay wrote about is not whether the bailouts were good or bad, necessary or unnecessary, rather it is about the GOP’s strategy in a very important state in November for both parties, right? ”
Yeah, well, that lasted about a page or so.
But you now how cons here are. Can’t address the topic, change it and argue that.
Paul
February 28th, 2012
5:03 pm
Joe Hussein Mama
I seem to recall, on that thread, cons were careful to not address Scalia’s majority opinion.
Then again, the lib love was in short supply, too – (but that’s only because they were too busy recovering from shock and heart attacks)
TaxPayer
February 28th, 2012
5:05 pm
The only realistic approach to achieving the net effect of $2.50 per gallon gasoline is to increase fuel efficiency. This can actually be accomplished in many different ways. Walking more, biking more, driving less, carpooling, purchasing a more fuel efficient vehicle, properly inflating your tires, etc. Things that will not yield a net $2.50 per gallon gasoline price include drill here, drill now, Keystone pipeline, and just about any other silly Republican notion that may come to mind.
AmVet
February 28th, 2012
5:05 pm
But they’re still talking about you as if you’re some greedy special interest that needs to be beaten. Since when are hardworking men and women special interests? Since when is the idea that we look out for each other a bad thing?
BHO keeps on punking the punks.
How many times is that in the past year or so?
Hysterical…
Joe Hussein Mama
February 28th, 2012
5:06 pm
DDR — “Dudley not so much. He’s due to go back to Afghanistan and as you know they’re rioting and murdering people over there. I’m trying to talk him into staying here, (or at least staying in Germany until this thing boils over) but; I think I offended his manhood or something when I brought it up.”
When we invaded Iraq in 2003, the missis said she intercepted two phone calls from Army recruiters looking to get me to re-up (I was working in Washington on a consulting contract at the time). My extended military contract expired in 1995, so I had been out almost eight years when they called.
Anyway, she told me that she said “eff you, you can’t have him.”
Paul
February 28th, 2012
5:08 pm
Joe Hussein Mama
“Anyway, she told me that she said “eff you, you can’t have him.””
You still getting buzzed by black helicopters at night?
Thulsa Doom
February 28th, 2012
5:09 pm
Libs got more baloney than Oscar Meyer
So 4 years ago when gas was high it was because of W, Cheney, Halliburton, Exxon and all those other oil fellers.
So today of course the argument is that the potus can do nothing about the price of gas,that its a world market that we can’t do anything about, that none of this is Obama’s fault, that he and the Dems are completely blameless, blah, blah, blah,
Joe Hussein Mama
February 28th, 2012
5:10 pm
Paul — “I seem to recall, on that thread, cons were careful to not address Scalia’s majority opinion.”
I bet Scalia has said “fark” to himself more than once or twice in the last couple of weeks when he thinks about that opinion.
Thulsa Doom
February 28th, 2012
5:12 pm
Wisdom of the day
When gas is high and an R is in office its clearly his fault
When gas is high and a D is in office its clearly not his fault
Got it!
DebbieDoRight
February 28th, 2012
5:13 pm
But you’re Joe Mama — you’re not Dudley Do Right who thinks he has to save the world. He should be trying to save his marriage and let the world take care of itself………..BUT
………That’s another conversation!
Hopefully his family, (mom, dad, sister, kids); will talk some sense into him — when I try to do it he throws out the “vows” card.
Oh that card was a promise I made before I married him that, if he felt I was getting too “out of hand”; he’d use my ONE VOW he coerced me into putting into our “marriage contract”.
the vow was that “I will support my husband in his endeavors, (as he will support me in mine) because I love him. Or something equally as stooopid — I can’t remember it word for word.
It was a sh####tty vow anyway.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 28th, 2012
5:13 pm
Paul — “You still getting buzzed by black helicopters at night?”
No, but I was in Washington on 9/11 and for about a year and a half afterwards, and it was *freaky* in the first couple of weeks afterwards. Mystery black sedans speeding hither and yon, inexplicable airport searches and confiscations (I had a Bic shaver and some *fingernail clippers* seized in the name of national security at Dulles International) and swarms of helicopters barrel-azzing all over the place. It was like everyone expected a bomb to go off next to them at any time.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 28th, 2012
5:15 pm
DDR, what does Dudley do in the military? Is he infantry, cavalry, MP or something else that’s likely to put him in harm’s way a lot?
jewcowboy
February 28th, 2012
5:15 pm
Paul,
“But you now how cons here are. Can’t address the topic, change it and argue that.”
If I had to deal with constant embarrassment of having to deal with the jacktards they call candidates, I guess I would be trying to change the subject too.
DebbieDoRight
February 28th, 2012
5:15 pm
Anywhooo gentlemen — I’ll catch you guys later. I’m going home to think of evil things to do to my husband.
It’s a woman thing. You guys wouldn’t understand.
carlosgvv
February 28th, 2012
5:15 pm
DebbieDoRight – 4:44
I said “initial Emancapation Proclomation”. Don’t you know what that means? DUH
Ayn Rant
February 28th, 2012
5:17 pm
Why is it so hard to understand that if the federal government doesn’t create and sustain jobs during a major recession, the government will have to support the unemployed workers? Do you think a country can work its way out of a recession by laying off a substantial portion of the work force?
Why is it so hard to understand that the way to encourage private capital investment in America is to create and sustain the jobs that support consumer demand? Do you think capitalists are dumb enough to invest in private enterprise when 9% of the work force doesn’t have jobs, and the current supply of goods and services is sufficient to meet the weak consumer demand?
Why is it so hard to accept simple economics and elementary arithmetic?
DebbieDoRight
February 28th, 2012
5:17 pm
DDR, what does Dudley do in the military? Is he infantry, cavalry, MP or something else that’s likely to put him in harm’s way a lot?
He’s a contractor / interpreter. He mostly works with civilians (or so he tells me); but I think he also works a lot with the troops when they travel to village from village.
gm
February 28th, 2012
5:19 pm
Mich unemployment rate went from 14.1% before the bail out to 9.3%, the state added 103,000, how many jobs has Georgia added with rep running this state in the last 8 years?
This is why people in the North look at these southern conservatives hicks like a bunch of idiots, who love abuse from these crooked rep in office in Georgia who has this state last in every category but the poor bubbas continue to support these losers””
jewcowboy
February 28th, 2012
5:19 pm
Thulsa Doom,
“So today of course the argument is that the potus can do nothing about the price of gas,that its a world market that we can’t do anything about, that none of this is Obama’s fault, that he and the Dems are completely blameless, blah, blah, blah,”
So if the Democrats were wrong then, wouldn’t anyone making that same argument today be wrong as well?
DebbieDoRight
February 28th, 2012
5:20 pm
said “initial Emancapation Proclomation”. Don’t you know what that means? DUH
Oh sorry. I usually only read 1/3 of whatever you post, (since you mostly just post a lot of run-on sentences and you have a tendency to rant and rant and rant and rant and…….you get the picture); so I missed the relevant part of your post…if there was one.
My bad.
AmVet
February 28th, 2012
5:20 pm
Ayn, among the titans of business enlightened self-interest went out with the Edsel.
Now there is one thing and one thing only that matters – greed.
It has replaced even money as their new god…
And the motto of the 1%?
Let them eat cake.
Thulsa Doom
February 28th, 2012
5:21 pm
Ayn Rant,
Why is it so hard to understand economic history ma’am? Why? Japan tried stimulus 10 times. It failed. It failed during the great depression. Read your history ma’am. If you could spend your way into prosperity then we shoulda just spent a quadrillion dollars. What do we have ma’am? 2% economic growth 3 years after the recession? Gawd you make some dumb points. The stupid laws were made with you in mind ma’am.
Paul
February 28th, 2012
5:21 pm
Joe Hussein Mama
“It was like everyone expected a bomb to go off next to them at any time.”
Not to open up a rabbit hole, but I do think we forgot, very quickly, the level of uncertainty, concern and fear that existed then. There was a whole lot we did not know and that was the impetus for some very poor decisions.
Thulsa
“When gas is high and an R is in office its clearly his fault
When gas is high and a D is in office its clearly not his fault”
The following’s turning into one of my standard questions (for the next little while, anyways).
Were Democrats correct when they excoriated Pres Bush for high gas prices and not taking action to lower them?
If not, are Republicans also wrong (or just brazenly political) when they do the same and excoriate Pres Obama for high gas prices and not taking action to lower them?
And if Republicans are being political, aren’t they even more reprehensible than Democrats were, as they know Democratic attacks on Bush were purely political, and after criticizing them so forcefully for their tactics, they’ve now adopted those same tactics?
jewcowboy
February 28th, 2012
5:22 pm
Ayn Rant,
“Why is it so hard to accept simple economics and elementary arithmetic?”
Because they replaced both of those subjects with “intelligent design”.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 28th, 2012
5:24 pm
DDR — “He’s a contractor / interpreter. He mostly works with civilians (or so he tells me); but I think he also works a lot with the troops when they travel to village from village.”
I see why you don’t want him to go. I was Signal, but retrained into Public Affairs. PA was the best effing job in the Army IMO, and Signal was about as exciting as peeling potatoes.
I respect his decision to go, but if he’s a contractor, he doesn’t *have* to go. My wife would cut me with a knife if I tried to go to Afghanistan under those circumstances.
jewcowboy
February 28th, 2012
5:26 pm
Paul,
Oohhh…same thought train…but your post was in first class, mine was just riding coach.
gm
February 28th, 2012
5:27 pm
Thank you Mr. President for helping other Americans saying in their homes and supporting their familes, thank you for not sending billions to Iraq and building up their country.
Paul
February 28th, 2012
5:29 pm
jewcowboy
They were nicely complementary -
Joe Hussein Mama
February 28th, 2012
5:33 pm
Paul — “Not to open up a rabbit hole, but I do think we forgot, very quickly, the level of uncertainty, concern and fear that existed then. There was a whole lot we did not know and that was the impetus for some very poor decisions.”
I almost made one myself. I was flying back home one Friday evening shortly after 9/11, and as usual, I was sitting up in First Class. Back then, the airlines threw upgrades and perks at you like nobody’s business. Anyway, everyone was watching everyone else with suspicion as they got on board. One shaggy-haired kid in a beret came on looking like he’d just been getting high in the restroom, and one of the other people in FC said ‘well, he looks like he’s already cruising at 10,000 feet,’ so we all had a laugh.
So everyone gets on, takes their seats and we take off.
Right when the first DING goes off (you’re over 10K feet) and the flight attendants get up to start serving the meal, that shaggy hippie kid came BOILING into the FC compartment. I mean, he looked totally different and was moving with a PURPOSE. Me and one or two other FC passengers leaped up, and I was thinking ‘oh spit, it’s 9/11 again’ when the older flight attendant turned around and without missing a beat, said “I’m sorry sir, you’ll have to use the restrooms at the rear of the aircraft.”
The kid paused for a moment, and then turned around. Now he was wearing the stoopid hippie expression again. And back into Coach he went.
If that FA hadn’t acted quickly, I think we might have beat that kid down, and you’d have seen my face on the national news that night.
I’m out. Everyone be well and drive safely.
Let's not count our chickens, K?
February 28th, 2012
5:34 pm
Thulsa – the price of gasoline is determined by what we call “the free market.” In “the free market,” the price of something is determined by what we call “the law of supply and demand.” The “law of supply and demand” provides, generally, that when demand exceeds supply, prices go up. That’s what’s happening now. Oh, also, US oil production is at its highest level in over 15 years, so don’t be brining up Keystone.
Thanks for playing, and you’re welcome.
Kamchak
February 28th, 2012
5:36 pm
Olympia Snowe retires.
Let's not count our chickens, K?
February 28th, 2012
5:39 pm
Olympia Snowe’s retirement is a blow to us all, not just the Grand Old Regressive Party. She is one of the few sane, reasonable elephants still left in the room.
Thulsa Doom
February 28th, 2012
5:43 pm
Let’s not count our chickens, K?
February 28th, 2012
5:34 pm
Thulsa – the price of gasoline is determined by what we call “the free market.” In “the free market,” the price of something is determined by what we call “the law of supply and demand.”
Lets not count our chickens,
Sheesh. Did you really think you could teach someone who has an economics degree about supply and demand? Ma’am I’ve forgotten more economics than you’ve ever known. If you really want to impress me than wow me with some econometric analysis of the price elasticity of a gallon of gas. I’ll expect your dissertation very shortly genius.
Paul
February 28th, 2012
5:44 pm
Kamchak
“Olympia Snowe retires.”
Bosch just staggered, clutched his chest and gasped “I feel a disturbance in the Force…”
Kamchak
February 28th, 2012
5:46 pm
Paul
I’m sure he’ll find solace in the paws of his puppies.
Kamchak
February 28th, 2012
5:48 pm
Oh, and that is the topic of Jay’s new sheets. (Snowe’s retirement, not Bosch’s puppies.)
Common Sense isn't very Common - Papist Independent
February 28th, 2012
5:53 pm
UAW meeting for Mitt to be held in the phone booth at 1st and Main in Detroit
Thulsa Doom
February 28th, 2012
5:59 pm
Common sense,
They better hurry up with that phone booth meeting before Detroit completely implodes from decades of Democratic corruption and leadership. They’re still imploding and bulldozing whole neighborhoods in Detroit or didn’t you know that?
Let's not count our chickens, K?
February 28th, 2012
6:02 pm
Thulsa Doom: “Wisdom of the day. When gas is high and an R is in office its clearly his fault. When gas is high and a D is in office its clearly not his fault. Got it!”
Did your economics degree come with a money back guarantee? If so, I think you should go get it.
Mama Says
February 28th, 2012
6:11 pm
Hey news flash !
The United Auto Workers support Obama !
I mean
Obama vists United Auto Workers and they approve !
Or
Union supports Obama, $ 45 an hour salaries saved, Union vows never retreat on workers rights ” we are tired of being mistreated”
In a related story, union vows – republicans want to take your pension, insurance, social security, Medicare, Medicaid, education, house, cars, and send your kids to die in the desert–democrats agree, say republicans don’t want to give us anything
How shocking, you liberal government handout, I deserve it people support Obama
Rich
February 28th, 2012
6:59 pm
Nice strategy by our president. Remind the Michigan voters that Romney didn’t care if the industry went belly up. Boo for Willard. Hurray for Rick. Then Santorum, with all his wacky ideas, getsburied in a landslide in November. This is way too easy… like shooting fish in a barrel.
TNRealist
February 28th, 2012
9:26 pm
For those chattering about gas prices I suggest you take a look at Sen. Bernie Sanders (Ind. VT) op piece on CNN.com today. Very interesting reading.
Proud to be me!
February 28th, 2012
11:45 pm
Obama’s bailout . . . just a political move . . . reaps union votes . . . that’s it in a nutshell! Just like the other bailouts Obama instigated . . . all in the name of votes!!!
Camiliosin
February 29th, 2012
2:10 am
hey all
i dont know if this is the right place to look for this but im looking for cs 16 servers list?
or does anyone know how to install counter strike 1.6 servers ?
by the way i’m Camilio and thanks for your help!
_________________________________________________________________________
“The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above-average drivers.”
stands for decibels
February 29th, 2012
7:22 am
My point is in regard to the Church being forced to pay for a service which contradicts their core beliefs.
I can’t recall the last time the RCC said “boo” about their congregants being forced to pay for bombs that routinely incinerate children alive. Funny about that, huh?
heading upstairs.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 29th, 2012
9:02 am
Camilio — choke on your game server, spammer.