How Rick Santorum could win Georgia
Who will win Georgia’s GOP primary on March 6?
I don’t know, and if you’re looking to the polls for answers, you’re probably looking in the wrong place. At this point, they can reveal trends but they cannot predict outcomes.
So let me go ahead and offer two possibly foolish observations:
1.) The stars may be aligning to make Georgia a pivotal state in the nominating process, and to make Rick Santorum the prime beneficiary.
2.) Newt Gingrich, on the other hand, could see his political career end right here, in the state where it began.
First, why aren’t the polls much help in predicting the outcome? Because this race has been all about momentum, and Big Mo could shift decisively before Georgia voters go to the polls.
For proof, look at how swiftly the numbers have moved in just the past two weeks. In a Mason Dixon poll conducted Feb. 6-8 for the AJC and other Georgia newspapers, Gingrich drew 43 percent of likely Republican voters, Mitt Romney 29 percent and Santorum just 12 percent.
But according to a poll released Tuesday by Fox 5 Atlanta, the race has become a three-way tie, with Gingrich (26 percent), Romney (24 percent) and Santorum (23 percent) all within the margin of error. That apparent doubling of support for Santorum — largely at Gingrich’s expense — was not driven by ad buys but by momentum and infectious enthusiasm. It’s particularly notable given that just two months ago, Santorum was polling at 2 percent in this state.
Now let’s look ahead. Michigan and Arizona voters go to the polls Feb. 28, one week before Georgia. Santorum is leading in most Michigan polls, even though it’s Romney’s native state. He is also surprisingly close in Arizona, within the margin of error in at least one poll. Gingrich, on the other hand, is a distant third in Arizona and isn’t even competing in Michigan.
Should Santorum beat Romney in Michigan, or even finish strongly in both Michigan and Arizona, it would spell big trouble for Romney and be downright devastating to Gingrich. As Rupert Murdoch tweeted recently about Santorum, “Win Michigan and it’s over.” The publicity and enthusiasm generated for Santorum would probably be enough to sweep the former senator to victory here in Georgia a week later. It might also condemn Gingrich to a third-place finish in a state that he has to win to remain credible.
It’s important to note just how primed the state’s Republican electorate is for a Santorum candidacy. We saw flesh-and-blood evidence of that at a Santorum appearance Sunday night in Cumming, where a supportive crowd of more than 3,000 people turned out to hear him speak.
Santorum’s personal and political history, particularly his views on abortion and other social issues, have made him a favorite of evangelical voters nationwide. And in the AJC’s February poll, 72 percent of white Georgians who said they were likely to vote in the GOP primary described themselves as either evangelical or born-again.
Here’s another indication: In a December AJC poll, 49 percent of registered Georgia voters said that a fetus should have the legal standing of a person “at the instant the fetus is conceived.” Just 35 percent took a less absolutist stance.
No partisan breakdowns are available on that question, but if 49 percent of Georgia voters believe that life begins at the instant of conception, that percentage must be considerably higher among Republicans. And among that kind of electorate, Santorum has the potential to do very well.
Unlike Romney, Santorum can and does speak with honest conviction on such issues, and people respond to it. And while Gingrich speaks with equal conviction, people also understand that his greatest political attribute is his ability to believe sincerely in whatever just flew out of his mouth. In terms of honesty and clarity of message, Santorum wins hands down.
In a general election, however, history suggests that Santorum would not be a formidable candidate. If he were the GOP nominee, it is even conceivable that a red state such as Georgia might turn blue. The question is, how many Georgia Republicans are even thinking in those terms?
The answer comes March 6.
– Jay Bookman
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
635 comments Add your comment
Doggone/GA
February 22nd, 2012
11:36 am
“If a man causes an abortion, or kills a pregnant woman, he’s charged for homicide or whatnot of the unborn baby. Why can a woman get away with homicide but a man can’t? Double-standard to me”
Take it up with the MEN who passed and signed those laws. They claim to be the “logical” sex.
md
February 22nd, 2012
11:37 am
“So this perfect all-knowing, all-caring God of love you worship causes women to have natural miscarrages.”
BHAAAAAAAMP……….that’s the sound that just went off with your assumption…….
As far as I’m concerned, the jury is still out on the god thing…….I’m basing my opinion on the logic that there is life…….the dna strand for every human begins at fertilization……I don’t buy the “blob” theory folks like to use to justify an action.
Peadawg - Yasmin Neal is one craaazy b*ch
February 22nd, 2012
11:37 am
“funny how they’re not counted as persons for the census … or anything else.”
Agreed. So why’s can a man be charged with homicide?
None of this crap makes sense. One way, but not this way, or that way.
Fred ™
February 22nd, 2012
11:37 am
I’m out. Later. I’ll look back to see what was decided as I know there will be a clear consensus and a meeting of the minds here……….
Peadawg - Yasmin Neal is one craaazy b*ch
February 22nd, 2012
11:38 am
“Take it up with the MEN who passed and signed those laws.”
I’ll take that answer as the law doesn’t make sense to you either.
Aquagirl
February 22nd, 2012
11:39 am
Why can a woman get away with homicide but a man can’t? Double-standard to me.
Because in your world, teh wimmenz have no control or consent for their body. I can see why you think a man should be able to do something against her will and get away with it.
Fred ™
February 22nd, 2012
11:40 am
Doggone/GA
February 22nd, 2012
11:36 am
Take it up with the MEN who passed and signed those laws. They claim to be the “logical” sex.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Sweet, just the opening for posting a tune that I was looking for……….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k3JVfxluFU
Peadawg - Yasmin Neal is one craaazy b*ch
February 22nd, 2012
11:40 am
“Because in your world, teh wimmenz have no control or consent for their body.” – So women are free to commit homicide? That’s f’ed up.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 22nd, 2012
11:40 am
md — ““In Alabama, criminal code defines a homicide victim as “a human being, including an unborn child in utero at any stage of development, regardless of viability.””
Dude, you’re talking about ALABAMA. Haven’t you seen the signs on I-20 and I-85 that direct you to reset your watch to 1848 when you cross the state line?
St Simons - we're on Island time
February 22nd, 2012
11:40 am
whaaat? don’t call the man I’m votin fowah next week an idot, heheh
Doggone/GA
February 22nd, 2012
11:42 am
“I’ll take that answer as the law doesn’t make sense to you either.”
You are correct. It does not. The death of the foetus should ONLY be counted as a homicide if the pregnancy is far enough advanced that the baby could be reasonably expected to survive if the pregnancy was terminated. I refer you to the story of the birth of Julius Ceasar as an example.
snoqualmiefalls
February 22nd, 2012
11:43 am
gingrich
santorum=
AU H2O 1964
Nuff said
Adam
February 22nd, 2012
11:45 am
Peadawg: It’s b/c most everyone no here agrees that Santorum is an idiot and we must argue about SOMETHING. it’s no fun when everyone agrees.
USinUK
February 22nd, 2012
11:46 am
“Agreed. So why’s can a man be charged with homicide?”
for killing a woman?
gee. you’re right. he should just get away with it.
md
February 22nd, 2012
11:46 am
Joe,
Merely pointing out existing law…….which will more than likely make it to the SC at some point in the future……only a matter of time.
We can argue opinions here all day long and not change a thing……the courts will eventually let us know how to live……………
JohnnyReb
February 22nd, 2012
11:47 am
OK, no making fun of Alabama even if their state flower is the the satellite dish.
USinUK
February 22nd, 2012
11:47 am
seriously – FWIW, many pro-choice women I knew were against the double-homicide law for just that reason – because the fetus is NOT a person and should NOT be treated as such by the law.
Peadawg - Yasmin Neal is one craaazy b*ch
February 22nd, 2012
11:48 am
“for killing a woman?” – Sorry…after an hour of discussion I thought you’d know i meant for killing the baby.
jm
February 22nd, 2012
11:49 am
Israel and Iran
http://www.economist.com/node/21547297
(ir)Rational
February 22nd, 2012
11:49 am
Johnny Reb – “even if their state flower is the satellite dish.” Great, because of that, I snorted Mt. Dew out of my nose.
Bruno
February 22nd, 2012
11:49 am
As I’ve said in the past, if employers have the option of dropping items from health insurance they object to, just were do you draw the line? Will employers then drop any high-cost items? Even if they have to cite a religious objection?
Paul–IMO, it’s unfortunate that the “religious objection” angle has muddied what should otherwise be a straight-forward question regarding free commerce. Employers are not legally required to provide health insurance to their employees, nor should they be. As such, it comes across as a little bit crazy to me that if an employer is generous enough to offer coverage, then the government has the right to step in and dictate exactly what coverage is offered. If your office staff only consists of people over the age of 60, for example, why should the employer be forced to pay for maternity coverage?? The bottom line is that all of these mandatory riders have helped push the cost of insurance to unaffordable levels.
Peadawg - Yasmin Neal is one craaazy b*ch
February 22nd, 2012
11:49 am
UNBORN baby @ 11:48…just be clear for USinUK
Either you’re playing dumb…or you really are dumb. Not sure which.
USinUK
February 22nd, 2012
11:50 am
P’diddy – “UNBORN baby @ 11:48…just be clear for USinUK”
double homicide, dear … double homicide … it’s not just for killing a fetus …
Adam
February 22nd, 2012
11:51 am
Bruno: Employers are not legally required to provide health insurance to their employees, nor should they be. As such, it comes across as a little bit crazy to me that if an employer is generous enough to offer coverage, then the government has the right to step in and dictate exactly what coverage is offered.
How does your argument change, knowing that the ACA actually DOES by law require that employers offer health insurance plans?
JohnnyReb
February 22nd, 2012
11:51 am
Here’s a link that goes into abortion versus murder. Basically, the difference is man has put forth a law declaring voluntary abortion as legal whereas the same fetus killed by other means is illegal. In the end, that reasoning will not stand before man or God.
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5656
Peadawg - Yasmin Neal is one craaazy b*ch
February 22nd, 2012
11:51 am
“double homicide, dear … double homicide … it’s not just for killing a fetus …”
OMG we’re going in circles. I get that. And that second homicide is what we’ve been talking about for the past hour. Keep up..geeze.
Butch Cassidy
February 22nd, 2012
11:52 am
jm – “Israel and Iran
Okay, I’m convinced. We need to get one of your guys in the WH as soon as possible so that they can cut taxes low enough to pay for another ground war in the Middle East.
Doggone/GA
February 22nd, 2012
11:52 am
“If your office staff only consists of people over the age of 60, for example, why should the employer be forced to pay for maternity coverage??”
Because that is how insurance works. The “pool” of payers is large enough that the cost PER payer is lower than it would be if each individual had to negotiate and buy their own policy.
Aquagirl
February 22nd, 2012
11:52 am
So women are free to commit homicide? That’s f’ed up.
If that was true I’d have a rocket launcher affixed to my car, and we’d be missing some idiots driving 45 mph in the left hand lane with a phone jammed in their ear.
Here we go!
February 22nd, 2012
11:53 am
Perhaps this will help you out:
http://www.ncsl.org/issues-research/health/fetal-homicide-state-laws.aspx
Shows each states laws. Remember, Federal law typically trumps state law and those cases in between wind up in the Supreme Court. Where, Roe v Wade was?
Adam
February 22nd, 2012
11:54 am
If you intend to carry a pregnancy to term and someone kills you, there should most definitely be a legal consideration for extra penalty if it was obvious that the person was pregnant and therefore seen as more vulnerable to predators like murderers. However, I do NOT think that the second charge should be murder. That’s just an attempt to create the highest possible PUNISHMENT.
Adam
February 22nd, 2012
11:55 am
Aquagirl: If that was true I’d have a rocket launcher affixed to my car, and we’d be missing some idiots driving 45 mph in the left hand lane with a phone jammed in their ear.
That made me laugh hard enough that I got funny looks by people walking by my office just now.
Corey
February 22nd, 2012
11:55 am
All Mr. Gingrich’s opponents have to do is keep playing those clips of him trashing Mr. Reagan, and he’s done.
St Simons - we're on Island time
February 22nd, 2012
11:56 am
” …driving 45 mph….”
oh, no dats 20 miles over the speed limit, mon
ragnar danneskjold
February 22nd, 2012
11:56 am
I should have know Chauncey was not smart enough to get it right:
“Corporations with overseas operations would also face a minimum tax on their foreign earnings” So he decides it is smart to give companies with overseas operations a strong incentive to increase their overseas expenses, e.g., shift salaries from US to overseas operations. Don’t they think these things through?
(ir)Rational
February 22nd, 2012
11:56 am
JohnnyReb – I realize this is the South, and I’m probably going to step on a lot of toes here, but not everyone believes in your God. And I’ve always found it odd, that many of the people that do, are shunned by the mainstream of Christianity. So, you worry about what your God is going to think about your actions, and I’ll worry about my own actions. Laws shouldn’t take into consideration a (possibly) imaginary deity that no one can either prove or disprove when they’re made.
Peadawg - Yasmin Neal is one craaazy b*ch
February 22nd, 2012
11:56 am
“If that was true I’d have a rocket launcher affixed to my car, and we’d be missing some idiots driving 45 mph in the left hand lane with a phone jammed in their ear.”
Oooooh no you didn’t! Don’t even get me started on bad drivers…whoooooole other topic.
USinUK
February 22nd, 2012
11:56 am
“And that second homicide is what we’ve been talking about for the past hour. Keep up..geeze.”
and that second homicide is just that … a SECOND homicide. none of these charges stand on their own – even if the woman lives, the man is charged with his assault on the woman (battery at a minimum if not attempted murder)
and, as I’ve said repeatedly – these are just the steps the anti-choice movement is taking to turn a fetus into being recognized as a full-fledged person.
Doggone/GA
February 22nd, 2012
11:57 am
“I get that. And that second homicide is what we’ve been talking about for the past hour. Keep up..geeze.”
What you are NOT getting is that the second homicide charged is tacked on to make it possible to increase the punishment for the guilty person. I KNOW I’m going to be accused of comparing a “baby” to shoes here, but anyway…when was the last time you were arrested for driving barefoot?
As far as I know, it’s still illegal in GA to do that, but they don’t put up traffic stops to check peoples feet. It’s just a charge to add on to the list of violations if you happen to be caught breaking some other traffic law and they find you were ALSO driving barefoot. It increases the fine or length of jail time you can get.
USinUK
February 22nd, 2012
11:57 am
“However, I do NOT think that the second charge should be murder. That’s just an attempt to create the highest possible PUNISHMENT.”
which is why I’ve been saying that it’s always an adjunct to the original murder charge – never a stand-alone.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 22nd, 2012
11:59 am
md — “Merely pointing out existing law…….which will more than likely make it to the SC at some point in the future……only a matter of time.”
I expect that draconian Alabama Papers, Please law to be overturned sooner or later. Either the SCOTUS will do it or the Alabama legislature will. Some bonehead police officer arrested a German executive of Mercedes-Benz (Mercedes has a plant near Tuscaloosa) and held him without bond or contact — as the Alabama law permits — because the man didn’t have sufficient ID on him under the statute. Subsequent review by law enforcement officials with *actual* educations revealed that the man was legally in the country and in possession of a valid German passport and ID — meaning the deputy stepped on Alabama’s collective crank.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/11/21/373334/german-mercedes-benz-executive-arrested-under-alabamas-immigration-law/
It wouldn’t surprise me if Mercedes began to reconsider any expansion plans it might have had in mind for Alabama. And I also wouldn’t be surprised if other foreign businesses started looking away from Dixieland when seeking out places to build US facilities. Maybe they’d find blue states more welcoming of their investments.
Xenophobia. It’s what’s for dinner.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/20/opinion/its-what-they-asked-for.html?_r=1
(ir)Rational
February 22nd, 2012
11:59 am
Aquagirl @ 11:52 – If that were the case, I would be riding everywhere either directly behind you, or with you. I always thought the commute out of Cobb County would have been easier in an M1-Abrams main battle tank. Heck, one of those might even make commuting from Gwinnett County bearable.
Aquagirl
February 22nd, 2012
12:00 pm
oh, no dats 20 miles over the speed limit, mon
We need new road signs—”no trucks or phatties in left-hand lane”
Simon Jester
February 22nd, 2012
12:00 pm
Let’s see: Santorum is running for Ayatollah, Romney is almost a copy of Obama & Gingrich has buddied up with the likes of Pelosi. All three are proven, BigGov anti-Personal Liberty politicians (just like Obama). Only rational vote is for Ron Paul.
Peadawg - Yasmin Neal is one craaazy b*ch
February 22nd, 2012
12:01 pm
USinUK – the fact that a man can be charged for homicide of an unborn baby pretty much settles that debate about whether or not abortion is murder/homicide/whatever…legally anyways. The question now is why can woman do it and get away with it?
Doggone/GA
February 22nd, 2012
12:02 pm
“the fact that a man can be charged for homicide of an unborn baby pretty much settles that debate about whether or not abortion is murder/homicide/whatever…”
No, it doesn’t.
ld
February 22nd, 2012
12:02 pm
Georgia gets national attention this March.
If the this state put anywhere near as much effort into educating children as it does into trying to indoctrinate them to be bible thumpers, businesses would find Georgia much more appealing.
It’s difficult to compete globally when grounded in the 19th century.
(ir)Rational
February 22nd, 2012
12:02 pm
JHM – Shoot, I was worried about driving through Alabama last weekend to visit my sister-in-law. I just got my license renewed here, so all I have is the paper copy right now, and I just knew if I got pulled over some asshat Alabama deputy would arrest me for not having proper ID.
Butch Cassidy
February 22nd, 2012
12:03 pm
Peadawg -”The question now is why can woman do it and get away with it?”
Do you go through this much angst when a female co-worker goes home early because of a “heavy flow” day?
Acer706
February 22nd, 2012
12:04 pm
Bruno…
Also, the ACA creates incentives for those uninsured currently to remain uninsured and to pick up a policy when needed. The penalties are far less than premiums, so what’s the point of having to pay them? Esp if the provider has to provide no matter the situation.
You would think there is a right to healthcare in this country.
They BOTH suck
February 22nd, 2012
12:05 pm
Neal Boortz within the last 10 minutes…
“If Santorum wins the nomination, I will vote for him, but it will be the last attempt of desperation”…………………
hahahahahaha
Peadawg - Yasmin Neal is one craaazy b*ch
February 22nd, 2012
12:05 pm
“Do you go through this much angst when a female co-worker goes home early because of a “heavy flow” day?” – Are you really equating that to homicide?”
jm
February 22nd, 2012
12:06 pm
butch
“Okay, I’m convinced. We need to get one of your guys in the WH as soon as possible so that they can cut taxes low enough to pay for another ground war in the Middle East.”
???
As if I ever said anything like that.
Butch Cassidy
February 22nd, 2012
12:07 pm
Peadawg – “Are you really equating that to homicide?”
No, just pointing out that the worlds an unfair place, and some things we just have to accept and move on.
ld
February 22nd, 2012
12:07 pm
If a fetus is deemed a person, then a pregnant woman then not only would a woman that has an abortion be charged with murder but if she miscarries then, potentially, she could be charged with manslaughter—voluntary or involuntary– as well if she happens to be going about living her life rather than staying home as a homemaker.
Also, a lot of those receiving Social Security benefits want nine months back pay.
Mr_B
February 22nd, 2012
12:07 pm
“the dna strand for every human begins at fertilization…”
So does the DNA of a vast variety of other life forms. So just what make human DNA more valuable than the DNA of a chimp, a whale or a cockroach?
Could it be some quality that comes into play some time after fertilization? Like, perhaps, cognative intellegence?
(ir)Rational
February 22nd, 2012
12:08 pm
Pea – It really doesn’t answer the question. Cause it is still two separate things. But I realize it can be hard to grasp the concept (I’m trying to say this without any condescension in my voice, and I hope you’re able to read it that way). I was only able to figure out the differences and decide that there shouldn’t be any laws against abortion recently. I don’t agree with laws attempting to push your morals on someone else. Like I said, it took me a while to be able to grasp the concept.
St Simons - we're on Island time
February 22nd, 2012
12:08 pm
aq-We need new road signs—”no trucks or phatties in left-hand lane”
“Pass da truckie on da Left-hand Side”
Aquagirl
February 22nd, 2012
12:09 pm
The question now is why can woman do it and get away with it?
Because it’s her body. I know you don’t like that answer, that seems to stick in the craw of a lot of men. Or you just can’t wrap your head around that fact.
A man sliced my throat wide open a few years ago and it was all perfectly legal since I signed papers for the surgery. That doesn’t mean you can wander up on the street and stab me without my consent.
Peadawg - Yasmin Neal is one craaazy b*ch
February 22nd, 2012
12:09 pm
“some things we just have to accept and move on.”
Ah, so we should just accept that homicide is ok for some, but not others. Got it.
jm
February 22nd, 2012
12:10 pm
“Like, perhaps, cognative intellegence?”
Not in Mr_B’s case apparently…. why don’t you recheck your spelling of “cognative”
USinUK
February 22nd, 2012
12:10 pm
“the fact that a man can be charged for homicide of an unborn baby pretty much settles that debate about whether or not abortion is murder/homicide/whatever…legally anyway”
let’s see … what was that charming expression you used earlier … oh, yes, here it is … “Either you’re playing dumb…or you really are dumb. Not sure which.”
Butch Cassidy
February 22nd, 2012
12:10 pm
Peadawg – “Ah, so we should just accept that homicide is ok for some, but not others. Got it.”
Pretty much, under the circumstances your describing.
jm
February 22nd, 2012
12:11 pm
You just can’t make up things like the liberals say. Truth is funnier than fiction. Ah, the stupidity.
Peadawg - Yasmin Neal is one craaazy b*ch
February 22nd, 2012
12:11 pm
“(ir)Rational
February 22nd, 2012
12:08 pm”
Thanks for you’re honesty but I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around legal homicide.
md
February 22nd, 2012
12:12 pm
“Where, Roe v Wade was?”
Which was draconian itself in relation to “viability”……as science changes, so should the law.
(ir)Rational
February 22nd, 2012
12:12 pm
Pea – Maybe this can help – If I punch myself, not the best idea, but no laws against it. If you punch me, you would be charged with battery. If I shoot myself, (hopefully) it was an accident, and the police aren’t going to do much of anything to me besides determining if I was trying to kill myself. If you shoot me, you’ll be charged with attempted murder. It all depends on who is doing what. The same actions that are perfectly legal to preform on yourself, if you preform them on someone else, they’re illegal. And considering homicide is a legal term, with a very specific definition, abortion isn’t homicide, especially considering it isn’t illegal.
SwamiDave
February 22nd, 2012
12:14 pm
Adam:
Your question “How does your argument change, knowing that the ACA actually DOES by law require that employers offer health insurance plans?” goes to the foundational argument toward the unconstitutionality of the Affordable Care Act.
It is arguable that States would not have the authority to mandate employers provide health insurance, but I expect the Supreme Court to ultimately decide that the Federal Government defintely has no such authority.
To your point, -if- one assumes that the Federal Government CAN legislate such a mandate, then rational conclusion is that they can legislate HOW it is done or its makeup. If it is decided that they do not have the authority to legislate such a mandate, it is equally rational to conclude that those who choose to provide the benefit can likewise choose what components make it up.
-SD
Peadawg - Yasmin Neal is one craaazy b*ch
February 22nd, 2012
12:14 pm
“(ir)Rational
February 22nd, 2012
12:12 pm”
I get your analogy but they don’t work when other person is involved. You can’t kill my kid and get away with it but I can? That doesn’t add up.
Peadawg - Yasmin Neal is one craaazy b*ch
February 22nd, 2012
12:15 pm
“If I shoot myself, (hopefully) it was an accident, and the police aren’t going to do much of anything”
Tell that to Plaxico Burress…….
godless heathen©
February 22nd, 2012
12:16 pm
http://www.weau.com/home/headlines/7306061.html
An 18-year-old Minnesota man is charged with murder after police say he was offered $200 to punch a pregnant woman in the stomach.
Police say the woman’s boyfriend, 22-year-old Dameon D. Gatson, offered Paul Petersen the $200
to attack his girlfriend, who was six months pregnant.
The woman collapsed after being hit several times in the stomach and delivered a girl the next day. The baby survived on life support until dying Monday. Both men are charged with first degree assault and second degree murder.
(ir)Rational
February 22nd, 2012
12:16 pm
Pea – It isn’t another person. It is a fetus, that would be unable to survive outside it’s host (aka the mother). Scientifically speaking, which is the only way you will ever be able to comprehend or whatnot. You can’t bring morals into it and expect to “get” it.
md
February 22nd, 2012
12:17 pm
“So does the DNA of a vast variety of other life forms. So just what make human DNA more valuable than the DNA of a chimp, a whale or a cockroach?
Could it be some quality that comes into play some time after fertilization? Like, perhaps, cognative intellegence?”
It’s human in it’s simplest form………we eat the others in all forms.
By your argument, we going to start assigning human worthiness based on a set of variables?
Adam
February 22nd, 2012
12:17 pm
md: as science changes, so should the law.
Get back to me when it has been PROVEN that life begins at conception (and no, one scientist’s assertion with no peer reviewed studies or duplicate tested experiments does not count). Even if it is the case, what does that mean? We should use government resources to make sure that women always carry to term, and that when they don’t (miscarry) that they should be investigated? Does it mean we should outlaw contraceptives that eject fertilized eggs? Does it put an unfair burden on women who are raped or due to incest? What about deciding between the life of a fetus and the life of a mother? Can you honestly answer all of THOSE questions with science?
(ir)Rational
February 22nd, 2012
12:17 pm
Pea – Was he charged with shooting himself or with possession of a weapon? Just going off memory here, he was charged with possession. Shooting himself was just the way the police found out about it.
Peadawg - Yasmin Neal is one craaazy b*ch
February 22nd, 2012
12:17 pm
” It isn’t another person.”
Then why is a man charged with double homicide for killing a pregnant woman, or single homicide for causing an abortion?
Adam
February 22nd, 2012
12:18 pm
Swami: Your question “How does your argument change, knowing that the ACA actually DOES by law require that employers offer health insurance plans?” goes to the foundational argument toward the unconstitutionality of the Affordable Care Act.
No it doesn’t. The constitutional challenge has to do with requiring individuals to pay, not corporations.
(ir)Rational
February 22nd, 2012
12:18 pm
md – You eat whales, chimps and cockroaches? YOU SICKO!
Just playing the take everything you say literally game.
Peadawg - Yasmin Neal is one craaazy b*ch
February 22nd, 2012
12:19 pm
Yeah, I know. I was just trying to make a funny.
Burress had a permit in Florida but New York didn’t recognize it or something like that.
Steve
February 22nd, 2012
12:20 pm
Unemployment is back up to 9%…$75 to fill up my gas tank…I am going to go with Romney in 2012.
JohnnyReb
February 22nd, 2012
12:20 pm
(ir)ratrional – I respect a person’s right to believe, not believe in God and which God (although I believe there is only one). Let’s take God out of it. The point is, man has decarled this object, in this case a human, to be precious in one circumstance but completely disposable in another. The State takes the life of the offender in one case, but not the other. That’s highly irregular and illogical.
(ir)Rational
February 22nd, 2012
12:20 pm
Pea – Because he did it to someone else. The someone else being the mother.
ld
February 22nd, 2012
12:20 pm
If, knowing how dangerous the roadways are, a pregnant woman drives I-85 through midtown in late December rain and fog during rush hour and miscarries because of a wreck, has she committed manslaughter?
If a pregnant woman dancing at a family social event falls and miscarries is she guilty of manslaughter?
What if that fall & miscarriage is preceded by other factors.
What if social event was held by strangers in support of gay rights?
What if she doesn’t yet know she’s pregnant and drinks at that social event prior to her fall?
What if it is a drunk at that function knocks her off her feet?
What if it is a child that knocks her off her feet?
Judgment w/ religion enacted into law is a slippery slope. Religion as government is tyranny.
Adam
February 22nd, 2012
12:21 pm
Peadawg: Then why is a man charged with double homicide for killing a pregnant woman, or single homicide for causing an abortion?
You know, asking the same question even after it has been answered is kinda weird. I’m guessing you aren’t liking the answers you’re getting.
md
February 22nd, 2012
12:22 pm
“It isn’t another person. It is a fetus, that would be unable to survive outside it’s host (aka the mother). Scientifically speaking, which is the only way you will ever be able to comprehend or whatnot. You can’t bring morals into it and expect to “get” it.”
And as viability outside the womb increases, then what?
They are already growing body parts in the lab……and for all we know, complete bodies?
Adam
February 22nd, 2012
12:22 pm
Steve: Unemployment is back up to 9%…
Surveys do not equal official numbers.
Peadawg - Yasmin Neal is one craaazy b*ch
February 22nd, 2012
12:22 pm
“The someone else being the mother.” – The homicide charge to the mother, yes. But the 2nd homicide charge is for also killing the unborn baby. And in the second case in Pennsylvania, the only homicide charge was for the unborn baby…the mother wasn’t killed.
“$75 to fill up my gas tank” – Get rid of your gas-guzzly dummy.
godless heathen©
February 22nd, 2012
12:23 pm
Conclusion: There are a lot of dumb laws on the books. See EPA.
(ir)Rational
February 22nd, 2012
12:23 pm
Pea – I think you’re just not able to carry in NYC unless you have a permit with NYC and have your gun registered with the NYPD. But I don’t know for sure.
JohnnyReb – You’re the one who brought God into it. And as I just pointed out to Pea, it isn’t necessarily that you did it to the fetus, but that you did it to the mother.
Peadawg - Yasmin Neal is one craaazy b*ch
February 22nd, 2012
12:25 pm
” I’m guessing you aren’t liking the answers you’re getting.” – You’re absolutely right. Not that I don’t like them though…but b/c none of it makes sense. Why one is ok and the other not, just b/c it the woman doing it to her own kid, doesn’t make sense.
(ir)Rational
February 22nd, 2012
12:25 pm
Pea – Once again. The defendant/accused did something to the mother. Even if she wasn’t killed, they did something to the MOTHER. If the mother does something to herself, that is a different story.
md
February 22nd, 2012
12:25 pm
Adam…..to me it comes down to mindset…….if folks would look at the fetus as a baby, maybe more would take it a bit more seriously vs using abortion as birth control…………baby steps per se.
Peadawg - Yasmin Neal is one craaazy b*ch
February 22nd, 2012
12:25 pm
It even makes it more disgusting if you ask me.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 22nd, 2012
12:26 pm
(ir)Rational — “JHM – Shoot, I was worried about driving through Alabama last weekend to visit my sister-in-law. I just got my license renewed here, so all I have is the paper copy right now, and I just knew if I got pulled over some asshat Alabama deputy would arrest me for not having proper ID.”
My wife is US-born Hispanic, but I can see some bullethead in Outinasticks County deciding that since she didn’t have a Meskin passport on her, she needs to be locked up fer a leetle while. Hell, she almost always gets ‘randomly selected’ for secondary screening at the airport, but a friend of mine whose blonde, blue-eyed British wife *clearly* hasn’t been in the States more than a few years breezes right through.
(ir)Rational
February 22nd, 2012
12:26 pm
I can’t argue this anymore while I’m hungry. I’m going to start getting pissed and start calling people names and stuff like that, and I don’t feel like getting banned, so I’m going to lunch.
Peadawg - Yasmin Neal is one craaazy b*ch
February 22nd, 2012
12:26 pm
“If the mother does something to herself, that is a different story.” – But if the mother has an abortion, she’s not doing something to just herself. She’s doing something to the unborn child. Another person is involved.
Bruno
February 22nd, 2012
12:27 pm
How does your argument change, knowing that the ACA actually DOES by law require that employers offer health insurance plans?
My argument doesn’t change at all, Adam. I firmly believe that the ACA is unconstitutional and hope that the SC will apply the law fairly and declare it to be so. One of the most fundamental rights in the US is the right to be left alone. ACA violates that by requiring every citizen to participate in a for-profit industry.
(ir)Rational
February 22nd, 2012
12:28 pm
JHM – I ALWAYS get randomly selected for secondary screening in the airport. Once, when trying to leave London, I was well on my way to being strip searched until they discovered I was a minor and wasn’t with my parents. As it was, I was down to my undershirt and pants, no shoes, socks, belt, hat, button down shirt, or jacket. And that was the 9th time I had been searched that day.
md
February 22nd, 2012
12:28 pm
“Why one is ok and the other not, just b/c it the woman doing it to her own kid, doesn’t make sense.”
And it really makes no sense if one expands the argument outside the womb…..that child still “belongs” to the mom once born, is totally dependent, yet is then murder if one decides at that point to get rid of it.
But an to an arbitrary point inside the womb it is OK?
JohnnyReb
February 22nd, 2012
12:29 pm
(ir)rational – have to disagree. The law makes murder of the fetus a felony crime even if the mother is relatively unharmed.
Those that would argue the murder of the fetus hurts the mother overlook that law makes the offense against the fetus the crime. Harm to the mother is additional offenses. If the fetus is looked upon solely as value to the mother, the offense would be a civil matter, not criminal. So, we are back to my original statement, that being, a law of man has declared the fetus precious in some circumstances yet disposable in others.