Georgia anti-abortion bill strikes at heart of personal liberty

Georgia state legislators seem likely to pass a bill that would outlaw almost all abortions once a pregnancy has advanced beyond 20 weeks. (The current legal limit is 26 weeks). The rationale behind the bill is scientifically fraudulent, and its potential impact is tragic.

Let’s deal first and quickly with the ungrounded premise behind House Bill 954, which claims that “by 20 weeks after fertilization there is substantial evidence that an unborn child has the physical structures necessary to experience pain.”

No, there isn’t.

Although a relative handful of scientists claim otherwise — and many of those scientists are pro-life activists — the overwhelming scientific consensus is that the neural connections needed to feel pain do not exist in a fetus until at least 24 weeks into gestation and even beyond that. A 2010 review of all research in that area by Britain’s Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists makes the science behind the question quite clear.

Now, let’s talk about the practical impact of such a bill.

According to the Guttmacher Institute, nine out of 10 abortions performed in the United States occur in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. Most of those are unplanned, unwanted pregnancies that the mother chooses to terminate.

However, the small fraction of abortions that occur after the proposed 20-week deadline are a very different matter. Many if not most such abortions occur not because the pregnancy is unwanted, but because prenatal testing has discovered serious or even fatal abnormalities in the development of the fetus.

However, rather than create an exemption for such tragic cases, HB 954 cruelly and callously forbids it. In fact, they are the target of the bill. Abortions beyond the 20-week limit would be allowed only to save the life of the mother or “to avert serious risk of substantial and irreversible physical impairment of a major bodily function,” which is a very high standard for a “health of the mother” exception. There is no provision regarding severe impairment of the fetus.

Georgia is not alone in considering such legislation. To the contrary, HB 954 is part of a nationwide crusade to pass such laws. In the handful of states where it has passed, it’s already having an impact.

For example, in Nebraska last year, Danielle Deaver suffered a serious setback 22 weeks into a planned pregnancy when her water broke prematurely. Her doctors told her that her fetus’ lung and limb development had ceased as a result, and that even if carried to term, the baby would be born unable to breathe. But under a newly passed state law almost identical to that under consideration here in Georgia, Deaver was denied the right to end that pregnancy.

When she finally went into premature labor, the child died 15 minutes after birth. This was considered humane, moral and proper by Nebraska legislators.

In Washington, D.C., congressional Republicans are trying to pass a bill imposing similar restrictions on residents of the District of Columbia. At a press conference this week, Christy Zink, a D.C. resident and mother of two, recalled the impact that such a law would have had on her own tragic case.

Twenty-two weeks into her pregnancy, tests determined that if carried to term, Zink’s fetus would be born with half of its brain missing and other structures compromised as well. Shocked by the news, she and her husband made the difficult choice to end the pregnancy. Under the so-called “Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act,” however, she would have been denied the right to do so.

“Its very premise — that it prevents pain — is a lie,” Zink said of the bill. “If this bill had been passed before my pregnancy, I would have had to carry to term and give birth to a baby whom the doctors concurred had no chance of a life and would have experienced near-constant pain.”

Here’s Zink’s statement. Watch it, and as you do, remember that in the eyes of many this mother of two is a murderer because of the difficult decision that she and her husband were forced to make, a deeply personal decision that members of Congress and Georgia legislators want to strip from citizens of this country because as elected representatives, they believe themselves to be more qualified.

These decisions are not easy. Several years ago, Rick Santorum and his wife Karen faced a similar dilemma and took a very different course, as he often describes in very moving terms. They decided to see their pregnancy through to term, even knowing that the child would certainly die once it left the womb. Just as their doctors warned them, their son, Gabriel, died two hours after his birth.

No one should question the decision that the Santorums made. It was their personal struggle, and they handled it on the basis of their own values, thoughts and faith. It is the essence of freedom to be able to make such decisions yourself, free of government dictate.

Likewise, however, I also do not believe it within the purview of the Santorums or Georgia legislators or members of Congress to question or most of all overrule the decisions that other Americans might make in that same situation. It is, or ought to be, unthinkable.

– Jay Bookman

494 comments Add your comment

Jay

February 22nd, 2012
2:05 pm

Hmmm–Maybe someone can jog my memory: Hasn’t this been the Republican position all along??

No, Bruno, it has been OBAMA’s position all along, as Granny has so helpfully pointed out:

“In June 2008 candidate Obama said: “If we could eliminate loopholes in taxes, create a level playing field, then I think there’s the possibility of reducing corporate rates” – Tax.com

And as Obama said in his 2011 State of the Union:

“Over the years, a parade of lobbyists has rigged the tax code to benefit particular companies and industries. Those with accountants or lawyers to work the system can end up paying no taxes at all. But all the rest are hit with one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world. It makes no sense, and it has to change. So tonight, I’m asking Democrats and Republicans to simplify the system. Get rid of the loopholes. Level the playing field. And use the savings to lower the corporate tax rate for the first time in 25 years — without adding to our deficit. It can be done.”

And as Obama told the Business Roundtable in 2009:

“… my interest over time in potentially lowering corporate rates in exchange for closing a lot of the loopholes that make the tax system so complex, that’s a very appealing conversation to me, and I’d like to pursue it.”

Billybob

February 22nd, 2012
2:05 pm

still trying to ride the false liberal media template train regarding contraception and abortion jay…..you are an exposed pawn and your silence on media matters and the corrupt liberal media that goes all the way to the white house is very enlightening……….keep talking lib, your ideology is falling off the cliff as we speak……….did you get this directive from media matters as well jay, is that why you have been silent? Wonder why soros gave 1.6 million to npr to grow reporters all over the country………just ask media matters jay………

Joe Hussein Mama

February 22nd, 2012
2:06 pm

geesh — “I am not sitting on His throne of Judgement”

If you’re the one articulating what’s supposedly going to happen to others, then you most certainly ARE judging others.

“that’s His place.”

Then I suggest you leave the matter to your deity and trust that he will address the matter in his own way. That said, I don’t answer to any deity and I certainly don’t answer to you.

John K.

February 22nd, 2012
2:06 pm

You know, it really hurts the mood when I go to bed with my wife and the entire Georgia GOP is standing there keeping close watch.

Adam

February 22nd, 2012
2:06 pm

The Dems know they can’t win if everyone focuses on the economy

AHAHAHAHAHAHA

No, silly, it’s the REPUBLICANS who think they can’t win on the economy now so they have shifted to social issues. Watch this entire conversation magically disappear if the unemployment rate goes back up.

Ernest T. Bass

February 22nd, 2012
2:07 pm

I am not sitting on His throne of Judgement, that’s His place.

It sure is.

But he drop hints to you on who to judge doesn’t he ?

Wink wink

Just curious.

Do you believe the world is 6,000 years old ?

I’m just trying to get a gauge on what level we are at here ?

Normal

February 22nd, 2012
2:07 pm

Jay,

You said, “Doggone, I’ll add that God’s punishment, should it come, would be up to God. Enlisting government to act in God’s stead is an entirely different matter.”

I believe it’s called arrogance.

Billybob

February 22nd, 2012
2:08 pm

jay can you enlighten everyone as to the bill that was being disucssed to bring to the floor by the democrats yesterday invovling a man? should be interesting…..

Joe Hussein Mama

February 22nd, 2012
2:08 pm

Towncrier — “He certainly had intent to kill, but not all killing is murder. Taking a life accidentally or in war, for example, is not murder. I don’t think he “murdered” his wife (in the way Ted Bundy or Son of Sam murdered people).”

You split the hair exceedingly finely, sir. And despite what you say, something on the order of a dozen different court proceedings found no “intent to kill” on Schiavo’s part, your counterclaim notwithstanding.

Billybob

February 22nd, 2012
2:10 pm

adam,
democratic operative george stephanopoulos started this a month and a half ago……….wake up

Joe Hussein Mama

February 22nd, 2012
2:10 pm

md — “Geez, I get admonished for not saying one thing and then admonished again when I do say something…….I said “predator”……there was no mention of the war component.”

*I* included it. You responded, including the word “predator.” Perhaps you should have striven to be more clear.

“And for the record, soldiers follow orders…….but we do have a voluntary military, so make of that what you will.”

I’d like to know what *you* make of it. Are soldiers now “predators?” Am *I* such a “predator,” since I served during wartime?

Rockerbabe

February 22nd, 2012
2:10 pm

This is the latest volley in the war on women. The GOP sees women, not as persons in the own right, but property. Afterall, with property, one does not have to worry about its future, own does not have to worry about consulting property about what it wants, desires or even tolerates. With propety, one can do what one wants because. . . All this new restrictions on women, is just the GOP’s determination to see things back to the 1950’s. What a shame. I will not ever vote for a GOPer again in my life. Their lack of respect for women and women’s rights is astounding and underserving of reelection.

Adam

February 22nd, 2012
2:11 pm

Oh this is AWESOME:

Todd Tanner will give you his gun when you pry it from his cold, convinced-of-the-nonexistence-of-climate-change hands. Tanner, the chair of the new group Conservation Hawks — sportsmen (i.e. hunters) who don’t want climate change to ruin their fun — has challenged anyone to prove to him that climate change shouldn’t be a concern. If you win, he will give you, the Conservationist’s Hal Herring reports, “his most prized possession: A Beretta Silver Pigeon 12 gauge over/under that was a gift from his wife, and has been a faithful companion on many a Montana bird hunt.”

http://grist.org/list/prove-climate-change-doesnt-exist-get-an-awesome-gun/?utm_source=Sightline%20Newsletters&utm_campaign=8a528d27da-SightlineDaily&utm_medium=email

mm

February 22nd, 2012
2:12 pm

“still trying to ride the false liberal media template train regarding contraception and abortion jay…..you are an exposed pawn and your silence on media matters and the corrupt liberal media that goes all the way to the white house is very enlightening”

Easy to see what the rightwing talking points have been for the last week. Dimwits.

Joe Hussein Mama

February 22nd, 2012
2:13 pm

Rockerbabe — “I will not ever vote for a GOPer again in my life.”

At this point, I don’t see myself ever doing that again, either. And I stuck with the GOP for over 20 years of my voting life.

Adam

February 22nd, 2012
2:13 pm

Biillybob: democratic operative george stephanopoulos started this a month and a half ago……….wake up

Oh please. Yeah, it’s the DEMOCRATS fault that all these Republicans are putting forth legislation like this and diverting attention away from the economy when things start to look good. :roll:

Doggone/GA

February 22nd, 2012
2:14 pm

“jay can you enlighten everyone as to the bill that was being disucssed to bring to the floor by the democrats yesterday invovling a man”

blogspot.com is ready when you are

Keep Up the Good Fight!

February 22nd, 2012
2:14 pm

Jay, I hope that the Dems propose a bill amendment that says that if parent designates their child as at risk in weeks 20-26 then if born with any different abilities the state of Georgia shall pay all costs for that child however incurred until and including the burial of that person. And if the mother should pass during birth, the state shall pay all costs of the family until each of their burials. If these idiots are going to continue their stupid war on women then let them pay the real costs. My guess is that they’ll squeal about their lack of responsibility.

Billybob

February 22nd, 2012
2:15 pm

rockerbabe,
you need to realize what your leftist dem party is doing to manipulate you involving these trumped up social issues……hussein uses misdirection so nobody will pay attention to ANYTHING else that he is FAILING at……please learn from you mistakes

TBone

February 22nd, 2012
2:15 pm

Wanna see the biggest turn around from pro choice to pro life; when the supposed gene that gives rise to homosexuality is identified then we will see this shift in conscience.

Jay

February 22nd, 2012
2:15 pm

And I’m sure it was the Democrats who put this rather startling statement up on the home page of the Mitt Romney campaign:

“This is an election not only to replace a president. It is an election to save the soul of America.”

John Birch

February 22nd, 2012
2:16 pm

The only lives the libtards think are sacrd are Viet Cong, Boat People, illegal aliens, and convicted murderers and rapists, while the completely innocent unborn can die as long as they’re an inconvenience to mom.

Peadawg - Yasmin Neal is one craaazy b*ch

February 22nd, 2012
2:16 pm

“jay can you enlighten everyone as to the bill that was being disucssed to bring to the floor by the democrats yesterday invovling a man”

It’s ok. They’re woman. They’re allowed to get away with wasting time and taxpayers’ money.

jm

February 22nd, 2012
2:16 pm

dumb democrats. oh yes, and said rules only apply to business, not to government. more dem hypocrisy (that’s their motto)

government is dumb

Aimed at banks, Volcker Rule hits unlikely targets

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/22/us-states-volcker-idUSTRE81L0PZ20120222

Some public agencies that rely on the municipal bond market for financing fear that a landmark financial reform rule will cripple their ability to sell bonds and make it more expensive to raise money for crucial services.

The Volcker Rule was designed to curb the risks that banks take with depositor dollars, a practice known as proprietary trading. But the rule risks ensnaring public agencies ranging from housing agencies to hospital authorities because the way muni bonds are sold and traded results in banks risking their own capital — the very practice banned under the Volcker Rule.

fedup

February 22nd, 2012
2:17 pm

US states did not begin to pass laws criminalizing abortion until the 19th century. At the time that the Constitution was drafted, abortion providers openly advertised abortion services before the “quickening” of the fetus.

jm

February 22nd, 2012
2:17 pm

“This is an election not only to replace a president. It is an election to save the soul of America.”

amen

jconservative

February 22nd, 2012
2:17 pm

” It is the essence of freedom to be able to make such decisions yourself, free of government dictate.”

Nice conservative sentence Jay.

9th Amendment:
James Madison, who authored the Bill of Rights, writing in The Federalist No. 84 – “”It has been objected also against a bill of rights, that, by enumerating particular exceptions to the grant of power, it would disparage those rights which were not placed in that enumeration; and it might follow by implication, that those rights which were not singled out, were intended to be assigned into the hands of the General Government, and were consequently insecure.”

So he also wrote the 9th Amendment: “The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.”

In short, just because rights are not listed does not mean you do not have the rights.

Do you folks really want to be totally dependent on the Government for everything? Your pay check, your health, your freedom, your ability to think? Having the citizens totally dependent on government is the definition of a totalitarian state.

Bud Wiser

February 22nd, 2012
2:17 pm

I will not share my opinion on abortion any one way or another – never have, never will. Every person’s opinions are their own, and any speculation about another’s beliefs are just that, speculation.

An unborn baby has a heartbeat as early as near the end of the first month of pregnancy, during week four or week five, according to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists. This is just two to three weeks after conception. By this time, the heart is actually pumping blood with a steady rhythm.

So is it a living being then?

Everyone makes their own determination, whether by personal ethics, theology, or political persuasion these days.

Joe Hussein Mama

February 22nd, 2012
2:17 pm

billybob — “please learn from you mistakes”

I already did. That’s why I left the GOP in 2003.

JOE Cool-Republicans Call Him MESSIAH, I Just Call Him Mr. President

February 22nd, 2012
2:18 pm

You must know the economy is doing better when all the cons start shouting ABORTION, Media Matters, Religious Freedoms, Satan…….lol

Billybob

February 22nd, 2012
2:18 pm

mm,
that’s actual facts compared to some ‘talking point’ that you state, learn the difference lib and keep your head in the sand regarding your radical dems………i love educating lib pawns, it’s not your fault, you just believe a bunch of radical liars who have taken over the dem party……..independent and moderate dems will flee hussein in Nov…….join them

mm

February 22nd, 2012
2:18 pm

BillyBob,

The turnip patch called and it’s waiting on it’s leader (you).

Jay

February 22nd, 2012
2:20 pm

Billybob, you forgot to include “media matters” in that last post.

Ten points’ deduction by your indoctrination leader.

Recon 0311 2533

February 22nd, 2012
2:20 pm

Oh yeah the Holy Grail of liberalism, abortion restricted in any form gets the left into a frenzied rage. A perfectly common sense piece of legislation attacked by Jay and his faithful flock. Pointing to the Royal College of Obstetricians as absolute authority on this issue is royal ignorance if it’s generally agreed that the time into gestation can’t be determined beyond any reasonable doubt, why not err on the side of caution. The left views water boarding as extreme torture but has no problem with torturing and killing life in the womb.

They BOTH suck

February 22nd, 2012
2:20 pm

Jimmy62

I can go to pretty much any media source……. left, right or indifferent and find issues on the economy…….

I can read or hear how Obama has done nothing, how he has done everything and every thing in the middle of those two extremes

You are kidding yourself about the economy not getting coverage

Wake up…….. No one has made Santorum get in the “pulpit” lately. He is rising and he is also talking social issues, hence it is being covered.

Repubs in here in GA want abortion law changed, hence it is being covered…….

Obama about stepped in it the other week on contraception, hence it is being covered………..

Any the economy which impacts us all is some way or another is covered DAILY from all sides and views…….

Adam

February 22nd, 2012
2:21 pm

Face it: The Conservative Propaganda Machine grabbed hold of the conversation once again, and THAT is why we are talking about all these social issues.

Any attempt to place this conversation or any others as something the Democrats CAUSED lets me know that you know DAMN WELL that it is not only WRONG to be talking about this crap as part of public policy, but you also know it’s a losing issue for you guys.

mm

February 22nd, 2012
2:21 pm

Billybob,

i am an independant. And before you convince yourself you are educating others, you really need to educate yourself. Go back to listening to your braincell killing heroes at Fox News.

md

February 22nd, 2012
2:21 pm

“I’d like to know what *you* make of it. Are soldiers now “predators?” Am *I* such a “predator,” since I served during wartime?”

Never said they were……..not too sure why you would draw that conclusion. But no, I don’t see soldiers as predators…….they follow orders for the good of the Nation.

Totally different discussion than those that order the wars to begin. And since there is man and evil in the world, war will more than likely always be present.

Towncrier

February 22nd, 2012
2:21 pm

“The bible says lots of crazy stuff that contradicts the other crazy stuff.

There is always enough rope in the Bible for people who want to dismiss it to hang themselves. A good example is of this is Jesus’ statement in John 6:53-4: “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” Either Jesus was a madman or a stupid fool or there is more to what he is saying than what appears on the surface. If one is curious, even if with a willing suspension of disbelief, one might find that things are quite what they seem from a single verse.

Regarding Deuteronomy 23:1ff you quoted (from the KJ version I suppose), what is the assembly of the Lord referred to? It is the Hebrew word, Kahal, which generally signifies a congregation or company of men met together as leaders.

But here is what the Bible says elsewhere, in Isaiah 56:4-5:

For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

My advice is to not so quickly dismiss things you read in the Bible as inane, for you could be grossly misjudging its meaning.

Billybob

February 22nd, 2012
2:23 pm

jay,
startling? more like truthful…..class warfare, division, socialism, central gov’t planning vs. everyone succeeding on their own merits, free market capitalism, limited gov’t, freedom……i would say that statement is accurate…….the problem you have with it is that you are on the losing side of it, lib……enjoy

Billybob

February 22nd, 2012
2:25 pm

keep looking the other way in regards to media matters bookman, your silence regarding this corruption shows who you are……….your welcome

Billings

February 22nd, 2012
2:25 pm

Much ado about nothing. Even pro-life attorneys say these amendments are a waste of energy. R v W remains until SCOTUS decides otherwise.

There is no more pivotal moment in the subsequent growth and development of a human being than when 23 chromosomes of the father join with 23 chromosomes of the mother to form a unique, 46-chromosomed individual, with a gender, who had previously simply not existed.

There’s no crime in calling it what it is. IT is a human being. At the very least, we can grant human dignity. No?

Bosch

February 22nd, 2012
2:25 pm

It’s always been my opinion, that ni matters of abortion, men have absolutely no right to an opinion. Sure, they can express it, but they have no right to have a say in what a woman does with her body. It’s really just that simple.

And Jay, Peadawg has previously expressed his belief that women who have abortions should be imprisioned. Surprise you missed that one.

JamVet - Jay say no the GOP's plan to bring back the Dark Ages.

February 22nd, 2012
2:26 pm

These reactionary control freaks care as much about the unborn as they care about the suffering Iraqi people.

The only thing that truly matters to these con men is that they will never be satisfied until they can force women, all women, to do what they want them to do.

Which means Republican men are never going to be satisfied again.

And I love it…

md

February 22nd, 2012
2:26 pm

“The GOP sees women, not as persons in the own right, but property. Afterall, with property, one does not have to worry about its future, own does not have to worry about consulting property about what it wants, desires or even tolerates. With propety, one can do what one wants because. .”

Interesting……can’t the same be said of women and baby’s?

ld

February 22nd, 2012
2:26 pm

A decision as to whether or not individual liberty and equal right under law exists for every person born in this country–without regard to gender–should not even be an issue; however, since it seems to be for some, then we may need to revisit the equal rights amendment and putting gender equality into the Constitution– that women have equal right under law as men.

IF the issue were actually freedom of religion, then your GOP right-wing right to believe that life begins at conception is NOT greater than my my independent right to believe that life begins when a new life–a newborn without extreme measures w/regard to medical intervention–not unlike the way it was necessary for newborns to survive when our Constitution was written.

No one should be forced to use contraception or get an abortion (not even that Octomom); however, no one should be permitted to interfere with the choices of others to take advantage of medical advances developed as our society has progressed.

When you, Rick Santorum and other GOP right-wing fundamentalist, apply turn the other cheek and thou shall not kill to our NATION–which now has the motto, “In God We Trust” and not only stop supporting the death penalty but stop funding the military, then I’ll believe you believe thou shall not kill. But as long as you believe, as I do, that we have a right to defend this nation by any means necessary–including bombing that kills CHILDREN, do NOT be so stupid as to think you are any more “moral” than I am or that I believe you are sincere in your faith. It takes more than dictating to your neighbors how they should live for you to be abiding by that commandment, thou shall not kill.

If the standard is LITERAL translation of documents–Bible or Constitution–
use the LIVING standards from the times they were written before people could get the kind of medical help available now–if, of course, you can afford it.

So you, right-wing GOP, actually do STOP taking advantage of all the medical advances to save and prolong life– THEN, but only then, I may be convinced of your sincerity that you TRUST in God.

But as long as YOU choose those medical advances to which you want access and can afford, then everyone else must have that equal right. Neither contraception nor abortion should be “free” but it should be freely, readily available to anyone that can afford it. If there are those that want to start a non-profit to help fund this medical care, they should be as able to do that as you are to have your church or your local YMCA or any and all other club of choice be a non-profit.

The issue is NOT religious liberty, not women’s liberty, not reproductive liberty –

THE ISSUE IS INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY–
either this nation stands for that
or the grand “experiment” has failed.

Bosch

February 22nd, 2012
2:27 pm

And when will the GOP realize that their dogmatic stances on these social issues are what’s killing them?

Sane people really just don’t give a sh*t about things like abortion and gay marriage and that crap.

Get over your pompous santamonious selves GOPers.

Billybob

February 22nd, 2012
2:27 pm

mm,
libs always need a strawman or antagonist to play off of……this is easy……enough time wasted here……enjoy libs

Jefferson

February 22nd, 2012
2:27 pm

The GOP is losing, due to strategy and poor leadership. They don’t deserve the support that get as they don’t produce results.

JamVet - Jay say no the GOP's plan to bring back the Dark Ages.

February 22nd, 2012
2:28 pm

Jay, I think the cons hate Media Matters because they called out the piggish coward, Rush Limbo for denigrating Iraq war veterans.

Support the Troops.

Peadawg - Yasmin Neal is one craaazy b*ch

February 22nd, 2012
2:28 pm

“And Jay, Peadawg has previously expressed his belief that women who have abortions should be imprisioned.” – If that’s the consequence for homicide, sure…seeing as men get charged for double homicide when killing a pregnant woman.

The double standards shown here today are sickening.

Towncrier

February 22nd, 2012
2:28 pm

“You split the hair exceedingly finely, sir. And despite what you say, something on the order of a dozen different court proceedings found no “intent to kill” on Schiavo’s part, your counterclaim notwithstanding.”

Good catch. JMH. That was the first thing I penned and meant to strike it out. He intended to no longer artificially sustain her life, for which he is not culpable in my view as I indicated in the rest of my earlier post.

Jay

February 22nd, 2012
2:30 pm

US states did not begin to pass laws criminalizing abortion until the 19th century. At the time that the Constitution was drafted, abortion providers openly advertised abortion services before the “quickening” of the fetus.

An important and often-overlooked point, fedup. And yet somehow God still managed to smile upon this country and bring it prosperity and power. Go figure, huh?

Towncrier

February 22nd, 2012
2:31 pm

BTW, JMH, would you care to answer the question Jay will not:

Those who want to argue that the 9th Amendment speaks to natural rights have the tremendous burden of proof to show why the framers did not simply include a passage in the Constitution securing those natural rights. Why? Because some of the state constitutions already had such language and there were at least 5 attempts to include a natural rights section in the Constitution itself that were defeated. So why would the framers implicitly and vaguely speak to these rights when they could have done so in an explicit manner???

ld

February 22nd, 2012
2:31 pm

The “S O U L” of America is individual liberty.

Find me one person in this country that will openly admit they do not want “individual liberty” for themselves and I will show you a liar and fool.

Billybob

February 22nd, 2012
2:31 pm

to sum up…..republicans hate women and dems love women……..this is the false lib media template that was put forth by george and hussein….good luck getting traction with that lie bookman……pawn

Talking Head

February 22nd, 2012
2:32 pm

Obama’s 2013 budget will increase capital gains tax from 15% to 44%.

This guy is a clown. COTUS
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204880404577225493025537660.html?mod=WSJ_hp_LEFTTopStories

md

February 22nd, 2012
2:32 pm

And folks bitch about stagnant wages here, this is what folks get once they pass the point of no return:

“It’s being called the “negative salary”: Due to austerity measures in Greece, it’s being reported that up to 64,000 Greeks will go without pay this month, and some will have to pay for having a job. Numbers in austerity reports have usually reflected figures in the millions, since they reflect industry-wide cuts (i.e. a 537-million euro cut to health and pension funds). And plans of cutting minimum wage by up to 32% is all but a given in the country. Today’s “negative salary” deal—which could have government employees returning funds— reveals the real human impact of the austerity measures. ”

Wonder where our point of no return is……anybody?

Peadawg - Yasmin Neal is one craaazy b*ch

February 22nd, 2012
2:33 pm

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/geithner-obama-seeks-28-percent-corp-tax-rate-165554751.html

“President Barack Obama says the current corporate tax system is outdated, unfair and inefficient. He is calling for an end to dozens of subsidies and loopholes that he says offer tax breaks to companies that move jobs and profits overseas.”

“The Obama administration is proposing cutting corporate tax rates from 35 percent to 28 percent.”

Jefferson

February 22nd, 2012
2:34 pm

The only true “right” belongs to those making the decision about their situation, otherwise its not your business. Those that think they know it all are wrong, but bang your head against the wall if you want.

md

February 22nd, 2012
2:35 pm

“Find me one person in this country that will openly admit they do not want “individual liberty” for themselves and I will show you a liar and fool.”

Oh, everybody wants it all right…….but some seem to want a good bit more as well………..

JamVet - Jay say no the GOP's plan to bring back the Dark Ages.

February 22nd, 2012
2:36 pm

Template…

You keep using that word. I do not think that word means what you think it means.

LOL…

[...] Bookman at the Atlanta Journal-Constitution points out that there is no substantial evidence that fetuses experience pain at 20 weeks, writing: Although a relative handful of scientists claim otherwise — and many of those [...]

They BOTH suck

February 22nd, 2012
2:38 pm

Towncrier

See JB @ 2:30

Now what were you saying earlier about what the Founding Fathers envisioned? Since you do know what they envisioned, right?

oopppssss………..

But keep up the good fight……… hahahaha

Doggone/GA

February 22nd, 2012
2:38 pm

“My advice is to not so quickly dismiss things you read in the Bible as inane, for you could be grossly misjudging its meaning”

And so could you.

md

February 22nd, 2012
2:38 pm

“Obama’s 2013 budget will increase capital gains tax from 15% to 44%.”

It’s actually dividends, which will end up costing the older folks among us the most in the long run as corps tend to stop paying dividends all together when the rates get too high. 4 out of 5 retired folks get dividends………..

Aquagirl

February 22nd, 2012
2:38 pm

the double standards shown here today are sickening.

Can’t disagree with you there, Pea….oh, and when were you going to surrender control of your organs to the State? I missed your reply somehow. There’s ex-fetuses dying every day because you deny them access to your body. Get busy, man.

They BOTH suck

February 22nd, 2012
2:39 pm

JB @ 2:30

That post will have some scrambling like cockroaches when the light comes on………………..

JamVet - Jay say no the GOP's plan to bring back the Dark Ages.

February 22nd, 2012
2:40 pm

Poor Head. The tycoon would take a merciless beating on his vast capital gains if the Uppity Muslin gets his way…

Jay

February 22nd, 2012
2:40 pm

TalkingHead, sorry, I don’t trust the opinion pages of the WSJ to give me straight scoop on the facts of tax reform. They have a long and dishonest history in that regard.

Show me something from the news side of the operation and I’ll consider it seriously.

Peadawg - Yasmin Neal is one craaazy b*ch

February 22nd, 2012
2:42 pm

“Can’t disagree with you there” – Thanks, Aquagirl.

Adam

February 22nd, 2012
2:43 pm

Obama’s 2013 budget will increase capital gains tax from 15% to 44%.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! WAH WAH WAAAAAAAAHHHHH

Talking Head

February 22nd, 2012
2:44 pm

Jay,

First, the WSJ opinion page didn’t increase the dividend tax. Obama did, and it’s in his 2013 budget.

Second, If you actually read instead of castigating then you would read that “Who would get hurt? IRS data show that retirees and near-retirees who depend on dividend income would be hit especially hard. Almost three of four dividend payments go to those over the age of 55, and more than half go to those older than 65, according to IRS data.”

Bosch

February 22nd, 2012
2:44 pm

Sad truth Pea, if Mrs. Peadawg decided to get an abortion, you couldn’t stop her from doing it, and if you did, you’d be charged with a whole manner of things.

Spare me your melodrama about double standards when we see them with the GOP every single day. How can they be anti-government intrustion, preach to us about civil liberties and how the government is taking over our lives and in the same breath be for the government to force a woman to have a child against her will?

Bernie

February 22nd, 2012
2:44 pm

What If the Women of Georgia stood up and said “NO”.

That thought alone should give many in the State House pause and nightmares….:)

Give it Time and they will….

just as African Americans said of segregation in the face all obstinance from the Georgia State House Legislators.

Bosch

February 22nd, 2012
2:45 pm

“There’s ex-fetuses dying every day because you deny them access to your body. Get busy, man.”

Or better yet, get Mrs. Pea down to the nearest embryo holding clinic to donate her uterus.

DawgDad

February 22nd, 2012
2:47 pm

First, a lot of abortions involve the “unthinkable”. Want to watch some videos? Second, I reject at face value Jay Bookman’s authority to proclaim what is and isn’t valid science.

Third, we are not debating the beginning of life, we are debating the beginning of what the GOVERNMENT recognizes as life. Two different concepts, just like the government is NOT able to define “marriage” in a religious sense. This is necessary becase the MISSION of government is to provide for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

I am pro-life, but in context of GOVERNMENT’s role I am libertarian. The question is whose life and liberty are we protecting, and under what conditions.

Doggone/GA

February 22nd, 2012
2:47 pm

“in the same breath be for the government to force a woman to have a child against her will?”

Actually? They aren’t for that at all. Just ask them how they would go about DOING that? You’ll get no answer that makes any sense. They don’t REALLY care that the child be born, they only REALLY care to punish the woman for making the decision to terminate her pregnancy.

Peadawg - Yasmin Neal is one craaazy b*ch

February 22nd, 2012
2:47 pm

“when we see them with the GOP every single day.”

“But…but…but they do it” isn’t an argument.

All I’m asking is to make abortion homicide in all cases, or none. Just a little consistency in the law is all.

AmVet - You cons have got to ask yourself one question: Do we feel lucky? Well, do ya, punks?

February 22nd, 2012
2:47 pm

Bosch

February 22nd, 2012
2:47 pm

“Or better yet, get Mrs. Pea down to the nearest embryo holding clinic to donate her uterus.”

That goes for all wingnuts here who either have a uterus, or access to one — get off this blog and go donate their uterus for these embryos and poor unwanted fetuses, or go down to the nearest DFACS office and pick up a foster kid.

Otherwise, stfu about your faux concern.

Talking Head

February 22nd, 2012
2:47 pm

If Obama wants everything to be fair, then he should eliminate the dividend tax. The dividend payout has already been taxed once.

So it’s becoming clear that Obama has it out for the elderly in our country. He took $500 billion away from Medicare to pay for his healthcare law, he’s currently taking away from SS to pay for a $40 payroll tax cut, and he’s planning on reducing the income of elderly citizens with higher dividend taxes.

JKL2

February 22nd, 2012
2:48 pm

-Jay

Does this mean all the Demwits getting abortions couldn’t figure out within the 5 MONTHS that they had been victims of rape or incest?

Towncrier

February 22nd, 2012
2:49 pm

“An important and often-overlooked point, fedup. And yet somehow God still managed to smile upon this country and bring it prosperity and power. Go figure, huh?”

I hardly think God is “pro-abortion,” and He sends sunshine and rain on the just and unjust. He also blesses (or at least does not curse) nations when only some of its people are righteous. God is clearly anti-extramarital sex (the cause of most abortions) and there are clearly passages that imply that a fetus, at some point, is a real person.

It is true that abortion has been practiced throughout human history. In the colonies it was practiced before the fetus produced tangible movements in the womb (a so-called “quickening”). This is perhaps the strongest argument pro-abortion people can make for it being a “right” (on the theory that the 9th Amendment protects rights in place at the enactment of the Constitution). But as far as I know, in the colonies it was done covertly and not advertised all over. And some of the European nations at that time, like Scotland, outlawed it completely.

Peadawg - Yasmin Neal is one craaazy b*ch

February 22nd, 2012
2:50 pm

Then, Bosch, let’s work on changing the law to not charge men w/ with homicide against the unborn baby. K, punkin?

Adam

February 22nd, 2012
2:50 pm

Doggone: they only REALLY care to punish the woman for making the decision to terminate her pregnancy.

EXACTLY

Pro Life means you care about something AFTER it’s born too, not just until that point. But if you’re Pro Life and against welfare? Sorry, you’re not really pro life.

Bosch

February 22nd, 2012
2:50 pm

They aren’t for that at all”

Actually Doggone, yes they are — how else would you end abortions? They don’t see that the only way to end them once and for all is to take Pea’s belief to imprison these women, or force them to have the child.

And who would be enforcing this? The government.

So, where’s your consistency Pea?

Towncrier

February 22nd, 2012
2:50 pm

“TalkingHead, sorry, I don’t trust the opinion pages of the WSJ to give me straight scoop on the facts of tax reform. They have a long and dishonest history in that regard.”

Some might say the same of the AJC opinion pages, no?

Doggone/GA

February 22nd, 2012
2:50 pm

“All I’m asking is to make abortion homicide in all cases, or non”

And you got your wish. Abortion is not homicide in ANY case. Now, wasn’t that quick?

Steve - USA (I support "None Of The Above")

February 22nd, 2012
2:50 pm

Jay@2:40

Good idea. Always take an opinion piece with a grain of salt. ;)

DagnyT

February 22nd, 2012
2:51 pm

I am a pro-life evangelical Christian and I think Mr. Bookman has a valid point. Having had friends in this heartbreaking situation in another state with a similar law, I think at the very least a “fetal death” provision should be in place. Their baby had no brain and no skull. They could not carry until term and the procedure needed was considered an abortion in their state. They had 2 days to make a life-altering decision before their state’s law kicked in and the procedure would be outlawed. I’m not trying to start an argument, just to point out that sometimes lawmakers don’t understand all the consequences of their actions and that is can result hardships being placed on already grieving couples. I know this couple felt like they didn’t have time to consider their options or even have their family members arrive for support and the whole thing was rushed because of a mandated state deadline. It compounded an already sad situation.

Adam

February 22nd, 2012
2:51 pm

Peadawg: Should we make all killing of humans (for the sake of argument, NOT including pre-birth) homicide in all cases, no exceptions?

Doggone/GA

February 22nd, 2012
2:53 pm

“Actually Doggone, yes they are”

and I would put it that they SAY they are, that they even THINK they are..but in reality, they are not. Because they have no idea of a mechanism to FORCE any woman to carry her pregnancy to term. Therefore, despite their assetions, they aren’t not REALLY advocating an end to abortion…just another round of punishment for those who choose to have one.

Towncrier

February 22nd, 2012
2:54 pm

“Now what were you saying earlier about what the Founding Fathers envisioned? Since you do know what they envisioned, right?”

To the extent we have writings of theirs indicating what they thought, yes.

Peadawg - Yasmin Neal is one craaazy b*ch

February 22nd, 2012
2:54 pm

“And you got your wish. Abortion is not homicide in ANY case. Now, wasn’t that quick?” If it’s caused by the man, it is. We’ve been over this.

They BOTH suck

February 22nd, 2012
2:54 pm

Towncrier @ 2:49

Reread your earlier post and than the one @ 2:49………

Wow,,,, Is that the same Towncrier or did you forget what you posted about the Founding fathers? There is a huge discrepancy there.

Doggone/GA

February 22nd, 2012
2:56 pm

“If it’s caused by the man, it is”

When anyone kills a woman, and thereby kills her foetus, it is NOT an abortion.

Aquagirl

February 22nd, 2012
2:56 pm

All I’m asking is to make abortion homicide in all cases, or none.

Denying someone unfettered use of your body for life support is not homicide.

And all I’ve asked for is that you take the same position on control of your organs as you give to women. But you’ve pretty much done a marathon running from that idea, those man parts sure move quick when threatened.

Billybob

February 22nd, 2012
2:57 pm

steve……nice

They BOTH suck

February 22nd, 2012
2:59 pm

Towncrier

“To the extent we have writings of theirs indicating what they thought, yes.”

I know it might be a little difficult to comprehend, however with the framework of the Constitution and other writing of the “Founding Fathers”……. they did not nor could not foresee everything that was to come after them………….

Spin it as you see fit, play semantics, dig in for all you can get, but you know that they were HUMAN and thus limited like all HUMANS in what they good foresee or not……….

Remember it was you that implied what the Founding Fathers thought or didn’t think about abortion.

How many sites did you go to after Jay’s post attempting to disprove it? Be honest. Now you did your homework, you frame your narrative differently……

No problem……. Your choice and right………. Just funny to see you shift and ignore your own posts and think it isn’t obvious