Georgia anti-abortion bill strikes at heart of personal liberty

Georgia state legislators seem likely to pass a bill that would outlaw almost all abortions once a pregnancy has advanced beyond 20 weeks. (The current legal limit is 26 weeks). The rationale behind the bill is scientifically fraudulent, and its potential impact is tragic.

Let’s deal first and quickly with the ungrounded premise behind House Bill 954, which claims that “by 20 weeks after fertilization there is substantial evidence that an unborn child has the physical structures necessary to experience pain.”

No, there isn’t.

Although a relative handful of scientists claim otherwise — and many of those scientists are pro-life activists — the overwhelming scientific consensus is that the neural connections needed to feel pain do not exist in a fetus until at least 24 weeks into gestation and even beyond that. A 2010 review of all research in that area by Britain’s Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists makes the science behind the question quite clear.

Now, let’s talk about the practical impact of such a bill.

According to the Guttmacher Institute, nine out of 10 abortions performed in the United States occur in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. Most of those are unplanned, unwanted pregnancies that the mother chooses to terminate.

However, the small fraction of abortions that occur after the proposed 20-week deadline are a very different matter. Many if not most such abortions occur not because the pregnancy is unwanted, but because prenatal testing has discovered serious or even fatal abnormalities in the development of the fetus.

However, rather than create an exemption for such tragic cases, HB 954 cruelly and callously forbids it. In fact, they are the target of the bill. Abortions beyond the 20-week limit would be allowed only to save the life of the mother or “to avert serious risk of substantial and irreversible physical impairment of a major bodily function,” which is a very high standard for a “health of the mother” exception. There is no provision regarding severe impairment of the fetus.

Georgia is not alone in considering such legislation. To the contrary, HB 954 is part of a nationwide crusade to pass such laws. In the handful of states where it has passed, it’s already having an impact.

For example, in Nebraska last year, Danielle Deaver suffered a serious setback 22 weeks into a planned pregnancy when her water broke prematurely. Her doctors told her that her fetus’ lung and limb development had ceased as a result, and that even if carried to term, the baby would be born unable to breathe. But under a newly passed state law almost identical to that under consideration here in Georgia, Deaver was denied the right to end that pregnancy.

When she finally went into premature labor, the child died 15 minutes after birth. This was considered humane, moral and proper by Nebraska legislators.

In Washington, D.C., congressional Republicans are trying to pass a bill imposing similar restrictions on residents of the District of Columbia. At a press conference this week, Christy Zink, a D.C. resident and mother of two, recalled the impact that such a law would have had on her own tragic case.

Twenty-two weeks into her pregnancy, tests determined that if carried to term, Zink’s fetus would be born with half of its brain missing and other structures compromised as well. Shocked by the news, she and her husband made the difficult choice to end the pregnancy. Under the so-called “Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act,” however, she would have been denied the right to do so.

“Its very premise — that it prevents pain — is a lie,” Zink said of the bill. “If this bill had been passed before my pregnancy, I would have had to carry to term and give birth to a baby whom the doctors concurred had no chance of a life and would have experienced near-constant pain.”

Here’s Zink’s statement. Watch it, and as you do, remember that in the eyes of many this mother of two is a murderer because of the difficult decision that she and her husband were forced to make, a deeply personal decision that members of Congress and Georgia legislators want to strip from citizens of this country because as elected representatives, they believe themselves to be more qualified.

These decisions are not easy. Several years ago, Rick Santorum and his wife Karen faced a similar dilemma and took a very different course, as he often describes in very moving terms. They decided to see their pregnancy through to term, even knowing that the child would certainly die once it left the womb. Just as their doctors warned them, their son, Gabriel, died two hours after his birth.

No one should question the decision that the Santorums made. It was their personal struggle, and they handled it on the basis of their own values, thoughts and faith. It is the essence of freedom to be able to make such decisions yourself, free of government dictate.

Likewise, however, I also do not believe it within the purview of the Santorums or Georgia legislators or members of Congress to question or most of all overrule the decisions that other Americans might make in that same situation. It is, or ought to be, unthinkable.

– Jay Bookman

494 comments Add your comment

They BOTH suck

February 22nd, 2012
1:16 pm

“Never ceases to amaze me that folks can compare the most innocent of all life forms to wars and predators………..”

Did the Catholic Church change their stance on the death penalty? When? I missed that one for sure…………

Geo

February 22nd, 2012
1:16 pm

“C’mon, men, let’s hear why you think someone should die because you hold the insane notion YOUR body belongs to YOU.”

Try that Bayer pill between the knees routine. You won’t have that “life or liberty” problem to contend with.

Doggone/GA

February 22nd, 2012
1:18 pm

“If you are personally opposed to abortion, then don’t have one, but stop trying to dictate what the next person should do. Your situation may be totally different from theirs.”

Of course. It always comes back to this: freedom for ME, but not for thee. They don’t want to be forced to do something, but have no qualms about forcing OTHERS to do their bidding.

Joe Hussein Mama

February 22nd, 2012
1:19 pm

Towncrier — “A woman’s consent begins with unprotected, unmarried sex”

And sometimes, protected, married sex leads to unplanned pregnancy. My wife and I know this, because it happened to us in 1999.

She nearly died; had she not had an abortion, I’d have been widowed.

Towncrier

February 22nd, 2012
1:20 pm

“Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me”

That passage points to Christian theology, wherein everyone is born with a sinful nature. But as it says elsewhere, where there is no law, there is no transgression.

“But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.” – Isaiah 7:16

According to this theology, though we are all born with a sinful nature, we are up to a certain point not accountable for the bad things we do because we don’t know better. Retarded people may never be accountable.

TaxPayer

February 22nd, 2012
1:20 pm

If a little baby is born with some condition that will cost hundreds of thousands of dollars in order to sustain the little one’s life and the parents do not have the money and no one steps up to pick up the tab and the baby subsequently dies, was it murdered.

By the way, did y’all medical professional Republicans come up with a consensus yet on the definition of conception or is there still an outlier that believes that we’re experiencing global cooling, er, um, I mean that conception has not been uniquely defined to everyone’s satisfaction.

Erwin's cat

February 22nd, 2012
1:22 pm

Aquagirl -“C’mon, men, let’s hear why you think someone should die because you hold the insane notion YOUR body belongs to YOU.”

First explain why you think you have the right to terminate a life that doesn’t belong to you?

Jefferson

February 22nd, 2012
1:22 pm

Until you realize what is your business and not yours you will be frustrated.

Towncrier

February 22nd, 2012
1:23 pm

“And sometimes, protected, married sex leads to unplanned pregnancy. My wife and I know this, because it happened to us in 1999. She nearly died; had she not had an abortion, I’d have been widowed.”

I have no issue with women getting abortions due to rape, incest or deemed medical necessity. It’s the other 80-90% (if the statistics I’ve read are accurate) that bother me.

Doggone/GA

February 22nd, 2012
1:23 pm

“That passage points to Christian theology”

If every word in the Bible is LITERALLY true, then what I quoted stands on it own: we are sinful from conception. And that means NOT INNOCENT. No exceptions.

Aquagirl

February 22nd, 2012
1:24 pm

A woman’s consent begins with unprotected, unmarried sex

Try that Bayer pill between the knees routine.

Ah, the “$lut$ asked for it” crowd is being forced from their burrows.

Doggone/GA

February 22nd, 2012
1:24 pm

“First explain why you think you have the right to terminate a life that doesn’t belong to you?”

But it DOES belong to the woman. As long as the foetus is totally dependent on her body, it is a symbiote of that body and has no rights. If the body rejects it, it dies. Period.

JOE Cool-Republicans Call Him MESSIAH, I Just Call Him Mr. President

February 22nd, 2012
1:25 pm

“It’s the other 80-90% (if the statistics I’ve read are accurate) that bother me.”

Bottom line….you no like, you no get!! LIBERTY to choose.

Doggone/GA

February 22nd, 2012
1:26 pm

“I have no issue with women getting abortions due to rape, incest or deemed medical necessity. It’s the other 80-90% (if the statistics I’ve read are accurate) that bother me.”

Than…like it or not…you are PRO-ABORTION. You just want to reserve the “right” to see punished those with whose decisions you disagree.

Towncrier

February 22nd, 2012
1:27 pm

“People, this is actually pretty simple: If you are personally opposed to abortion, then don’t have one, but stop trying to dictate what the next person should do. Your situation may be totally different from theirs.”

Ah, but if it were really that simple. If the majority of Americans pushed Congress to legislatively permit abortions, I could not complain. We are a democracy, after all. But when the SCOTUS makes abortion legal in a de facto way, now I feel disenfranchised. I never voted for that. That’s the rub.

Joe Hussein Mama

February 22nd, 2012
1:28 pm

Towncrier — “I have no issue with women getting abortions due to rape, incest or deemed medical necessity. It’s the other 80-90% (if the statistics I’ve read are accurate) that bother me.”

Am I correct in presuming, then, that you do not view abortion as ‘murder?’ Or am I reading you incorrectly?

Towncrier

February 22nd, 2012
1:29 pm

“Ah, the “$lut$ asked for it” crowd is being forced from their burrows.”

Is that all you got, baby?

Doggone/GA

February 22nd, 2012
1:29 pm

” But when the SCOTUS makes abortion legal in a de facto way, now I feel disenfranchised. I never voted for that. That’s the rub”

We are not given the right to vote on our rights. We HAVE our rights, it is up to the courts to PROTECT THEM. If a law makes a right illegal, it is the courts JOB to negate that law and return the right to legality.

Talking Head

February 22nd, 2012
1:29 pm

when gas hits $5 a gallon in a few months, we’ll see how important the abortion discussion will be

They BOTH suck

February 22nd, 2012
1:30 pm

Towncrier

“But when the SCOTUS makes abortion legal in a de facto way, now I feel disenfranchised.”

Did you or do you feel “disenfranchised” because the SJC had to intercede on numerous civil rights issues because many people in numerous states did not want to make the right decision?

They BOTH suck

February 22nd, 2012
1:32 pm

Talking Head @ 1:29

Valid point.. Boortz was saying today that social issues are not going to win the WH for Republicans…………….

geesh!

February 22nd, 2012
1:32 pm

being forced to buy a product by federal mandate is a strike at the heart of personal liberty, just throwing that out there…

md

February 22nd, 2012
1:32 pm

“Where did you think all those predators came from? They didn’t start as sacred egg-sperm unions?”

You claiming they are all innocent?

Towncrier

February 22nd, 2012
1:32 pm

“Am I correct in presuming, then, that you do not view abortion as ‘murder?’ Or am I reading you incorrectly?”

Murder charges depend upon intent, do they not? If one is almost forced to abort, due to matters of conscience or medical necessity, then that is different in my mind from doing it simply because having a child is inconvenient.

Aquagirl

February 22nd, 2012
1:33 pm

It’s the other 80-90% (if the statistics I’ve read are accurate) that bother me.

Yes, I can see why that bothers you….Because you don’t get to shove your nose in there and dictate your decision to the woman. You really, really want that control.

That frustration is visible all over this thread.

JOE Cool-Republicans Call Him MESSIAH, I Just Call Him Mr. President

February 22nd, 2012
1:33 pm

geesh!

February 22nd, 2012
1:32 pm

So you agree ppl who show up at the hospital with no insurance should just die?

Joe Hussein Mama

February 22nd, 2012
1:33 pm

Towncrier — “Ah, but if it were really that simple. If the majority of Americans pushed Congress to legislatively permit abortions, I could not complain. We are a democracy, after all. But when the SCOTUS makes abortion legal in a de facto way, now I feel disenfranchised. I never voted for that. That’s the rub.”

Now I see your issue. You feel that you should have a say in what rights individuals have.

Do you feel disenfranchised by the Emancipation Proclamation? Or do you feel better because Congress finally enshrined the prohibition of slavery and indentured servitude into law?

I, for one, don’t think that my unenumerated rights require a multi-year fight and Congressional approval. The Constitution is pretty clear on the point that We The People gave ourselves our rights, and I don’t for a moment understand your insistence on formalizing them via Congressional proceedings.

geesh!

February 22nd, 2012
1:33 pm

unplanned by man/ woman or not, all life is planned by a Soveriegn God, terminating an unborn child is not right…

Ernest T. Bass

February 22nd, 2012
1:34 pm

The rationale behind the bill is scientifically fraudulent

Science isn’t something the religious nuts or Republican specialize in.

Some of them still think the world is 6,000 years old etc.

Doggone/GA

February 22nd, 2012
1:35 pm

“being forced to buy a product by federal mandate is a strike at the heart of personal liberty, just throwing that out there”

I’m guessing you’re referring to the ACA. I happen to agree. I think, absent single-payer, that they should have made it a tax, like Medicare and not a mandate to purchase.

Ernest T. Bass

February 22nd, 2012
1:35 pm

is planned by a Soveriegn God,

Which one is that. Zeus ? Allah ?

md

February 22nd, 2012
1:35 pm

“Never ceases to amaze me that folks claim to be “pro-life” but are, at the same time, pro-death penalty and pro-war.”

More like “pro-innocent baby”………and predators give up all rights the moment they choose to take them away from others.

PJ

February 22nd, 2012
1:36 pm

As someone that faced a very similar decision to Ms Zink, I can tell you it wasn’t taken lightly and scarred my family tremendously. The knowledge that the child you were looking forward to more than anything, is going to die is unbelievable.
Then you have the choice to have your wife (mine was petite, so pregnancy itself was difficult) carry a child for up to 5 more months, knowing that it will die. And, if you believe the fetus feels pain, knowing you are sentencing your child to unimaginable pain that will only stop when he dies, should make you consider how ‘moral’ you are. I saw the ultrasound, held my son after he died, and can tell you that I could not sentence him to literally having his brain ripped in half, and then dying.
And I know several people with similar stories, and none of them wanted to lose their child.

Since the tests and fetal development does not show these problems until 20+ weeks, this bill is a complete intrusion of government into what is a private medical matter, and the hardest decision that most people will hopefully never have to make.

And for all the sanctity of life, how do you reconcile that belief with the hunting, war, and capital punishment, which most conservatives believe are okay, if not ‘rights’ on their own? If every life is sacred and only for God to determine when it ends, how do you justify ending others?

geesh!

February 22nd, 2012
1:36 pm

never said that Joe Cool, the point is , if a federal gov’t can tell you to buy one product, who’s to say they can’t tell you to buy this product or that product, who’s to say the federal gov’t then has the right to tell you how many children you can or can’t have. When does it stop?

geesh!

February 22nd, 2012
1:37 pm

Ernest, the God you are mocking is the one who plans life….

Doggone/GA

February 22nd, 2012
1:37 pm

“all life is planned by a Soveriegn God, terminating an unborn child is not right”

then why does God do it? Or are you one of those who think there’s no such thing as spontaneous abortion?

TaxPayer

February 22nd, 2012
1:38 pm

And by the way, off topic, Chris Christie can kiss my lily white arse! — Warren Buffett’s secretary’s first cousin’s Facebook friend of a friend and distant cousin of Thomas Jefferson.

Joe Hussein Mama

February 22nd, 2012
1:38 pm

Towncrier — “Murder charges depend upon intent, do they not? If one is almost forced to abort, due to matters of conscience or medical necessity, then that is different in my mind from doing it simply because having a child is inconvenient.”

I love your legal thinking. You’ve just justified euthanasia and given your stamp of approval to Mr. Schiavo. :D

If you’re going to say that abortion under one set of circumstances is societally and legally prohibited while the other is societally and legally *permitted* if not outright *encouraged,* then I think you’re opening a much larger can of worms than you expected.

I think it’s much simpler and much more honest to leave the decision up to individual women. There’s nothing stopping your side from *convincing* or *persuading* women to forego abortion, but it seems to me that since you can’t convince or persuade all women to go along with it, you want to use the force of law to compel compliance with your beliefs regardless of adherence to those beliefs and regardless of individual circumstances.

Towncrier

February 22nd, 2012
1:38 pm

“Did you or do you feel “disenfranchised” because the SJC had to intercede on numerous civil rights issues because many people in numerous states did not want to make the right decision?”

Apples and oranges. For instance, the idea of ending slavery was considered and argued for at beginning. But the practice was left untouched as a compromise in order to get the southerns states be part of the union. THAT was a huge mistake. There is no evidence I’ve seen that abortion, as a right, was ever on the minds of Founders.

Joe Hussein Mama

February 22nd, 2012
1:40 pm

md — “More like “pro-innocent baby”

Then be honest and say that.

“……and predators give up all rights the moment they choose to take them away from others.”

You are aware that I included soldiers during wartime, right? Are you now calling soldiers “predators?” Am I now such a “predator,” since I served during wartime?

Towncrier

February 22nd, 2012
1:40 pm

“You’ve just justified euthanasia and given your stamp of approval to Mr. Schiavo. ”

No, I think you have done so on my behalf in your own mind.

geesh!

February 22nd, 2012
1:40 pm

who is anyone to question God’s plan, it is one thing to terminate a pregnancy because it is “unwanted” and natural miscarriages which is a totally different issue…

Talking Head

February 22nd, 2012
1:40 pm

“Valid point.. Boortz was saying today that social issues are not going to win the WH for Republicans…………….”

That’s right, because social issues are off point of whats important right now in the present. Sticking to the current numbers on unemployment, the deficit, the debt, rising energy prices (resulting in rising prices of goods such as food)…and what this administration has done to alleviate these problems and what they haven’t done are the keys to success with voters. $5 gallon gas will be eons more relevant to a voter than social issues, because $5 gallon gas dictates what that person can and can’t do on a daily basis.

Jimmy62

February 22nd, 2012
1:41 pm

A question…. Very hypothetical, but I’m just wondering what people think…

So let’s say that there isn’t a single doctor in a state willing to perform an abortion because they all think it’s murder… It’s not illegal in that state, there’s just no one willing to perform the procedure. So what happens then? Do you force a doctor to do it? Do you pass a law making it illegal to say no to someone who wants an abortion?

Aquagirl

February 22nd, 2012
1:41 pm

More like “pro-innocent baby”

Apparently you have never seen young children steal each other’s toys or bite the hell out of each other. Innocent my @$$.

Joe Hussein Mama

February 22nd, 2012
1:42 pm

Towncrier — “There is no evidence I’ve seen that abortion, as a right, was ever on the minds of Founders.”

Shrug. There’s no evidence I’ve seen that any given unenumerated right has to be considered, debated and approved by Congress before citizens can exercise it.

Elmer Fudd

February 22nd, 2012
1:42 pm

If a baby wabbit is killed, but doesn’t make a sound, has a tree fallen?

Ernest T. Bass

February 22nd, 2012
1:42 pm

1. Human beings will always have sex but not necessarily want the result of that to be a child.
2. Abortion, condoms, vasectomies, the pill etc etc are all just tools to accomplish that goal.

If your going to outlaw abortions.

1. Your not going to stop anyone from having an abortion. Those with means will go to Canada or Mexico. Those without will use a clothes hanger.

2. Alot more babies are gonna get dumped in dumpsters.

End of discussion.

They BOTH suck

February 22nd, 2012
1:43 pm

TownCrier

“There is no evidence I’ve seen that abortion, as a right, was ever on the minds of Founders.”

So based on this statement should the SC hear ANY cases that was not on the “minds of the Founders”

You must be kidding, right? While very intelligent and wise the Founding Fathers were HUMAN……… they did not have on their mind or could not have the ability to comprehend everything that would be put forth from the inception of the US until today………………….

Thanks for the belly laugh………. You too funny

Jimmy62

February 22nd, 2012
1:43 pm

Of course the conversation has turned to social issues. The Dems know they can’t win if everyone focuses on the economy, so they and their water carriers in the media make everything about social issues. Watch the debates, the mostly liberal moderators downplay anything economy related while trying ask about and clarify as many social issues as possible. This contraceptive thing is a complete and total distraction.

ITS ALL BUSHS FAULT

February 22nd, 2012
1:43 pm

Bush was a rightous man he’s only a war criminal. but hey that doesn’t count in the compansite con world.

Towncrier

February 22nd, 2012
1:44 pm

“I, for one, don’t think that my unenumerated rights require a multi-year fight and Congressional approval. The Constitution is pretty clear on the point that We The People gave ourselves our rights, and I don’t for a moment understand your insistence on formalizing them via Congressional proceedings.”

Would you not concede that this could become a very slippery slope at some point, leading to euthanasia and who knows what else? In what does wrong consist, in your view?

ragnar danneskjold

February 22nd, 2012
1:44 pm

The death rate in abortions is at least 50%, Even Buchenwald was not so high.

Ernest T. Bass

February 22nd, 2012
1:44 pm

So let’s say that there isn’t a single doctor in a state willing to perform an abortion because they all think it’s murder… It’s not illegal in that state, there’s just no one willing to perform the procedure. So what happens then? Do you force a doctor to do it? Do you pass a law making it illegal to say no to someone who wants an abortion?

This is the kind of hypothetical nonsense that muddies the waters and keeps people from seeing what is really happening.

Geo

February 22nd, 2012
1:44 pm

Doggone/GA

February 22nd, 2012
1:45 pm

“who is anyone to question God’s plan, it is one thing to terminate a pregnancy because it is “unwanted” and natural miscarriages which is a totally different issue”

And how do you know it ISN’T God’s “plan” that the woman chooses to terminate her pregnancy?

ragnar danneskjold

February 22nd, 2012
1:45 pm

All who favor murder in utero ought to try to explain to a 9 year old why it is a good idea.

Joe Hussein Mama

February 22nd, 2012
1:45 pm

Towncrier — “No, I think you have done so on my behalf in your own mind.”

You brought up intent. If Schiavo’s *intent* wasn’t to kill — and despite multiple court cases, no such *intent* has ever been found or brought to light on his part — then by your own argument, no murder can be said to have taken place.

Joe Hussein Mama

February 22nd, 2012
1:46 pm

geesh — “who is anyone to question God’s plan”

Who are you to assert such a thing?

ragnar danneskjold

February 22nd, 2012
1:47 pm

But I would make a general exception to my “no abortions” rule, as I favor abortions for all leftists whenever the opportunity presents itself.

Bryan G.

February 22nd, 2012
1:47 pm

While it may be bad that Democrats want to force “charity” upon us all through wealth redistribution, it is much worse when Republicans try to force their “morals” upon us all.

Towncrier

February 22nd, 2012
1:47 pm

“If every word in the Bible is LITERALLY true, then what I quoted stands on it own: we are sinful from conception. And that means NOT INNOCENT. No exceptions.”

You apparently don’t know the Bible very well. In many (if not most) cases, it’s position is NOT spelled out in a single sentence. That is a 20th century conception of literature.

Aquagirl

February 22nd, 2012
1:48 pm

Since the tests and fetal development does not show these problems until 20+ weeks, this bill is a complete intrusion of government into what is a private medical matter, and the hardest decision that most people will hopefully never have to make.

That sounds incredibly painful, PJ, I’m sorry. But rest assured, there are plenty of men here ready to tell you what to do, but somehow they have totally ignored your post. You’d think they’d be anxious since you’re right here.

Joe Hussein Mama

February 22nd, 2012
1:48 pm

Jimmy62 — “Of course the conversation has turned to social issues. The Dems know they can’t win if everyone focuses on the economy, so they and their water carriers in the media make everything about social issues.”

It’s not the Democrats pushing the social issues, Champ.

Just watch what Gingrich, Santorum and Romney are saying on the campaign trail. The social issues are being raised by *your* side.

geesh!

February 22nd, 2012
1:48 pm

doggone, you bring up a good point, but I truly believe ones who have abortions and the doctor’s that provide them when they sit before God on judgement day, they will be let known how wrong is was to do so. So whether you love and obey the Lord or by your own sins you are judged, God get’s glory and his plan goes through.

Doggone/GA

February 22nd, 2012
1:49 pm

“Would you not concede that this could become a very slippery slope at some point, leading to euthanasia and who knows what else?”

We already have euthanasia. What else would you call it when life-support systems are disconnected?

They BOTH suck

February 22nd, 2012
1:49 pm

Jimmy62 @ 1:43

PSSST……… I’m going to let you in on a little secret, but you can’t tell anyone…….. Ok?

Santorum who is surging in the polls is Republican……. He can’t get social issues off his brain since he started garnering interest from SOCIAL conservatives via the polls……..

Psst: another thing…… It is the Repubs in the stats attempting the change the current abortion law…….

Now keep running with your tired diatribe about the Dems…….. but don’t tell anyone about Santorum and the GA majority Repub legislature

It will be our secret

be very quiet

ok?

You are officially the CLOWN of the day

BWHAHAHAHAHAH

Ernest T. Bass

February 22nd, 2012
1:49 pm

And how do you know it ISN’T God’s “plan” that the woman chooses to terminate her pregnancy?

Good point. Maybe the abortion is gods plan.

He does work in mysterious ways !!!!!

Joe Hussein Mama

February 22nd, 2012
1:49 pm

Towncrier — “Would you not concede that this could become a very slippery slope at some point, leading to euthanasia and who knows what else?”

Euthanasia is legal in at least one US state. Did you not know that?

“In what does wrong consist, in your view?”

What do you mean by “wrong?”

Geo

February 22nd, 2012
1:50 pm

It must be an election year:

IF YOU VOTE GOP – more black churches will burn…

IF YOU VOTE GOP – your social security will be taken away…

and now

IF YOU VOTE GOP – your ability to off an infant will be impaired

so

VOTE FOR US INSTEAD [and thanks for not noticing the economy]!!

Doggone/GA

February 22nd, 2012
1:50 pm

“You apparently don’t know the Bible very well. In many (if not most) cases, it’s position is NOT spelled out in a single sentence. That is a 20th century conception of literature.”

Actually, I DO know that. It is not ME who wants to claim that every word in the Bible is LITERALLY true. I was just “quoting” those who DO. You have – nicely – just proven my point.

geesh!

February 22nd, 2012
1:51 pm

Joe Hussein, God is, He says it in Psalms, in Job, and through out the Bible.

Becky

February 22nd, 2012
1:51 pm

PJ-I am so sorry for your and your wife’s loss. This bill must be defeated.

Jay-what can we do to defeat this bill? Our elected officials do not listen to their constituents. Any ideas?

Bryan G.

February 22nd, 2012
1:52 pm

And, also, it needs to be clear: this whole fetus pain thing is total bull. This whole thing is about baby Jesus, not baby pain.

Bruno

February 22nd, 2012
1:52 pm

Back with some on-topic comments in a minute, but I couldn’t resist putting up this headline:

“Geithner: Obama seeks 28 percent corp. tax rate”

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/geithner-obama-seeks-28-percent-corp-tax-rate-165554751.html

From the article: “Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner said Wednesday the current U.S. business tax system is bad for business and for job-creation and argued that President Barack Obama’s plan to reduce corporate tax rates to 28 percent would make the tax system more globally competitive.”

Hmmm–Maybe someone can jog my memory: Hasn’t this been the Republican position all along?? At what point are some of you Libs going to call out Obama on his BS??

Obviously not Fred, the “Independent”, who had this to say yesterday:

“I saw President Obama extend the Bush tax cuts rather than cut of money to the massive number of unemployeed. i guess if you consider blackmail a victory then you CAN lie and say he “did it.”

So, even given a Democrat Congress and a Democrat President, it’s still the Republicans fault that the Libs didn’t have the spine to walk the walk and let the Bush tax cuts expire?? Do you guys ever take responsibility for anything??

Ernest T. Bass

February 22nd, 2012
1:53 pm

doggone, you bring up a good point, but I truly believe ones who have abortions and the doctor’s
that provide them when they sit before God on judgement day, they will be let known how wrong is was to do so.

The problem with this thinking is that is your personal religious beliefs.

However crazy they are.

You can believe the world is 6,000 years old or any of the other crazy stuff in Christianity.

That’s fine.

But don’t push it on the adults or those of us with brains please.

Doggone/GA

February 22nd, 2012
1:53 pm

“So whether you love and obey the Lord or by your own sins you are judged, God get’s glory and his plan goes through.”

But that is YOUR OPINION, based on the religious teachings you have been given. You have NO RIGHT to impose them on others who do not share them. There is no law existing, and no law proposed to FORCE anyone to have an abortion. So if YOU don’t want one, don’t have one.

You make YOUR decision, and leave others to make theirs.

(ir)Rational

February 22nd, 2012
1:55 pm

geesh! – So now you’re not only wanting to push your morals on me, you’re wanting to push your beliefs on me as well? You do realize that not everyone consults an invisible (and possibly imaginary) deity before making every decision, right?

(ir)Rational

February 22nd, 2012
1:55 pm

Doggone – They want to make their decision and yours too. They’re not content with making just their own.

Ernest T. Bass

February 22nd, 2012
1:56 pm

Joe Hussein, God is, He says it in Psalms, in Job, and through out the Bible.

The bible says lots of crazy stuff that contradicts the other crazy stuff.

Deuteronomy 22:13-21

1 He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord. 2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord.

Deuteronomy 23:1

If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife–with the wife of his neighbor–both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

And there are a million more.

Jay

February 22nd, 2012
1:56 pm

Doggone, I’ll add that God’s punishment, should it come, would be up to God. Enlisting government to act in God’s stead is an entirely different matter.

mm

February 22nd, 2012
1:56 pm

” Does that clear it up for you?”

You lose the argument cons. You can’t have it both ways. But that is your argument on the majority of subjects. You pick and choose what fits your ideology. A life is a life. Go pound sand.

Your holier than thou attitude has pissed off America.

” The Dems know they can’t win if everyone focuses on the economy, so they and their water carriers in the media make everything about social issues.”

That is pathetic. Your party started this crap and you know it.

geesh!

February 22nd, 2012
1:57 pm

Ernest, I think it’s a tad insulting that you say I have no brain because I have fundemental Christian beliefs. I never once said you had no brain for not believing how I do. Nor am I really trying to push it on anyone either. I recognize we live in a nation where the rule of law is supposed to be followed and that we don’t live in a theocracy. I get that, I’d like to see abortion outlawed but if it is not my wife doesn’t have to get one and I’m sure not going to do anything immoral to change other’s mind…

Doggone/GA

February 22nd, 2012
1:57 pm

“They want to make their decision and yours too. They’re not content with making just their own.”

But God forbid *I* should try to push onto them MY ideas of what they should do.

“Freedom for me, but not for thee” says it all.

Bryan G.

February 22nd, 2012
1:58 pm

mm – seriously. 15% of workers are un-employed or under-employed and the GOP wants to talk about abortion and birth control. Ridiculous.

Aquagirl

February 22nd, 2012
1:59 pm

I truly believe ones who have abortions and the doctor’s that provide them when they sit before God on judgement day, they will be let known how wrong is was to do so.

You seem perfectly willing to cut that process short and sit on that throne of judgement yourself. Just in case God needs help with that wrathful stuff and all.

Doggone/GA

February 22nd, 2012
1:59 pm

“Doggone, I’ll add that God’s punishment, should it come, would be up to God. Enlisting government to act in God’s stead is an entirely different matter.”

Amen to that!

Bryan G.

February 22nd, 2012
1:59 pm

geesh! – What would say if Ernest told you he believed in a purple unicorn that spreads sugar on everyone? I bet you’d tell him he had no brain.

mm

February 22nd, 2012
1:59 pm

“Hmmm–Maybe someone can jog my memory: Hasn’t this been the Republican position all along?? ”

No, actually your stable of lunatics running for prez have talked about 0 – 12 percent corporate tax

Joe Hussein Mama

February 22nd, 2012
2:00 pm

geesh — “Joe Hussein, God is, He says it in Psalms, in Job, and through out the Bible.”

Even if I credit that statement, which I don’t, YOU still don’t have the authority to make such claims.

Jimmy62

February 22nd, 2012
2:00 pm

They Both Suck: Actually the GOP is talking about the economy plenty, but the media is only talking about when they discuss social issues, thus all you see are them talking social stuff. And Santorum is surging primarily because pretty much every single state he’s won is in the heartland. He won’t win the coasts. But that sort of obvious analysis must be too complicated for you.

Ernetss T. Bass- You say it muddies the waters and won’t answer the question. The real reason you won’t answer it is because you would have to admit that you think pregnant women should have choices and not be forced in to anything (I agree with you there), but on the other hand you are fully supportive of taking away choice from caregivers and forcing them to do things.

Doggone/GA

February 22nd, 2012
2:00 pm

“I get that, I’d like to see abortion outlawed ”

In other words, you want to push YOUR beliefs on all of us.

geesh!

February 22nd, 2012
2:01 pm

I am not sitting on His throne of Judgement, that’s His place.

Towncrier

February 22nd, 2012
2:02 pm

“You brought up intent. If Schiavo’s *intent* wasn’t to kill — and despite multiple court cases, no such *intent* has ever been found or brought to light on his part — then by your own argument, no murder can be said to have taken place.”

Well the Schiavo case is not in my mind an instance of euthanasia. Removing the means of artificially sustaining life is different from actually taking life due to a person’s suffering. I am not at all sure Terri was suffering – she was in a vegetative state, oblivious to all. I am not sure why we should be guilty of any wrongdoing in such cases. If God Himself was unwilling to sustain her life, then why should one be blamed for not doing so artificially?

He certainly had intent to kill, but not all killing is murder. Taking a life accidentally or in war, for example, is not murder. I don’t think he “murdered” his wife (in the way Ted Bundy or Son of Sam murdered people).

Ernest T. Bass

February 22nd, 2012
2:02 pm

I’d like to see abortion outlawed but if it is not my wife doesn’t have to get one and I’m sure not going to do anything immoral to change other’s mind…

You realize the result of that would be much worse don’t you ?

Criminalization of abortion did not reduce the numbers of women who sought abortions. In the years before Roe v. Wade, the estimates of illegal abortions ranged as high as 1.2 million per year.1 Although accurate records could not be kept, it is known that between the 1880s and 1973, many thousands of women were harmed as a result of illegal abortion.

Many women died or suffered serious medical problems after attempting to self-induce their abortions or going to untrained practitioners who performed abortions with primitive methods or in unsanitary conditions. During this time, hospital emergency room staff treated thousands of women who either died or were suffering terrible effects of abortions provided without adequate skill and care.

Some women were able to obtain relatively safer, although still illegal, abortions from private doctors. This practice remained prevalent for the first half of the twentieth century. The rate of reported abortions then began to decline, partly because doctors faced increased scrutiny from their peers and hospital administrators concerned about the legality of their operations.

Your wanna go back to that ???

Geo

February 22nd, 2012
2:03 pm

md

February 22nd, 2012
2:03 pm

“You are aware that I included soldiers during wartime, right? Are you now calling soldiers “predators?” Am I now such a “predator,” since I served during wartime?”

Geez, I get admonished for not saying one thing and then admonished again when I do say something…….I said “predator”……there was no mention of the war component.

And for the record, soldiers follow orders…….but we do have a voluntary military, so make of that what you will.

St Simons- island off the coast of New Somalia

February 22nd, 2012
2:04 pm

Thank you Ga Republicans. Do you have an organ grinder, too?

Steve - USA (I support "None Of The Above")

February 22nd, 2012
2:04 pm

It seems like the Anti-Abortion faction is following the strategy of what happened to smokers. While smoking is still legal they have put up so many obstacles to pursue a legal product that it almost punitive to smoke. I saw on the news the other night a State (can’t remember which, Texas maybe) that you have to get a sonogram before an abortion and the Dr. is required to describe the fetus out loud during the procedure..”there’s the spine, there’s the legs”, needless to say the woman felt pressured.

Just so you know, I don’t and never have smoked , I am not comparing Smoking Vs. Abortion. What I am trying to say is that I think the tactic’s used against Smoking are being replicated to make a woman’s legal right to an Abortion an almost unbearable hurdle.

JMHO

Aquagirl

February 22nd, 2012
2:04 pm

What would say if Ernest told you he believed in a purple unicorn that spreads sugar on everyone? I bet you’d tell him he had no brain.

Yeah, what a loon—-everyone knows unicorns crap Skittles instead!

How do people get through life confused about such basic, obvious things?