Top economists overwhelmingly back stimulus
Two important questions with relevance to the 2012 presidential campaign:
1.) Did the 2009 stimulus bill create jobs and lower the unemployment rate, or was it a waste of taxpayers’ money?
2.) In the final accounting, will the benefits of the Obama stimulus package end up outweighing its costs and risks?
The University of Chicago’s Booth School of Business put those questions to more than 40 of the top economists in the country, representing a wide range of viewpoints.
(The Booth School itself, one of the most respected business schools in the country, has long been associated with a more conservative emphasis on free markets).
Here’s what they found:
“Question A: Because of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009, the U.S. unemployment rate was lower at the end of 2010 than it would have been without the stimulus bill. Agree or disagree?”
Eighty percent agreed. Four percent disagreed. And the two who disagreed acknowledged that they were far from certain in their opinion.
The results of the second question, while less overwhelming, were still strongly supportive of the policy:
“Question B: Taking into account all of the ARRA’s economic consequences — including the economic costs of raising taxes to pay for the spending, its effects on future spending, and any other likely future effects — the benefits of the stimulus will end up exceeding its costs. Agree or disagree?”
Forty-six percent agreed; just 12 percent disagreed. Another 29 percent said they were uncertain or ventured no opinion.
By a 4-1 margin, in a poll conducted by a respected institution with a conservative reputation, a cross section of the nation’s most respected economists believe that the stimulus would prove to be a net positive for the economy, even after it is paid back. By a margin of 20-1, they believe that it produced jobs and lowered the unemployment rate.
Of course, I understand that such things must be weighed against the fact that Rush and Sean have very different opinions.
– Jay Bookman
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729 comments Add your comment
Generation$crewed
February 21st, 2012
1:29 pm
JohnnyReb
February 21st, 2012
1:17 pm
Dang if we could just get that top 50% to pay their fair share!!!
Herman's Cane
February 21st, 2012
1:29 pm
Way off topic, but can anyone tell me why Martha Zoller started off her radio show this morning with a nervous call for prayer due to unsourced information based on “chatter” that a war between Israel and Iran is imminent?
Geo
February 21st, 2012
1:30 pm
“Did you think you somehow made a point?”
Nope – you made it for us.
Joseph
February 21st, 2012
1:30 pm
By the way if you do the math each so called job created by the failed stimulus costs tax payers $278,000. Is this success????
JohnnyReb
February 21st, 2012
1:31 pm
Adam – I know how to post a link, but thank you. People often skip the links so I tried to post a grid.
Lost in the translation but shown in the grid, the Top 10% of all wage earners are brining in 43% of all income and paying 70% of all federal income taxes – 70%.
The economy is drug down not by performers but by all those who basically pay no federal income taxes – about 47% of wage earners. A point made many times here that continues to be swept aside in the interest of bleeding hearts.
Adam
February 21st, 2012
1:31 pm
The Republicans are adverse to tax increases and the Democrats (if the truth be known) are adverse to spending cuts.
Please show me any politician or pundit who has said that we ONLY have a revenue problem.
Towncrier
February 21st, 2012
1:32 pm
“By the way if you do the math each so called job created by the failed stimulus costs tax payers $278,000. Is this success????”
Yes, because normally the massively inefficient government would have spent up to 1 million per each job created.
Fred ™
February 21st, 2012
1:33 pm
Generation$crewed
February 21st, 2012
1:26 pm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You proved yourself yesterday to be capable of debate. You of course may feel free to address me all you wish, but I feel obliged to tell you that I will never read it. In my opinion you lack the very basic requirements in logic, intellectual integrity, and debating skills to exchange ideas with and I really have grown protective of my time as I get older. I don’t waste it on lost causes.
Have a great day and a beautiful life.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFvU3T7eruA
Adam
February 21st, 2012
1:33 pm
The economy is drug down not by performers but by all those who basically pay no federal income taxes – about 47% of wage earners. A point made many times here that continues to be swept aside in the interest of bleeding hearts.
Actually what tends to be ignored is what groups put the most money into the economy that keeps jobs going. Here’s a hint: it’s actually NOT investors. Investors help get businesses going or perpetuate the loans they have. This helps a business RESPOND to a demand, but what happens if no one can buy anything and there is therefore less demand?
Midori
February 21st, 2012
1:34 pm
Joseph is the head of the RNC?
Explains a lot, actually.
JohnnyReb
February 21st, 2012
1:34 pm
Generation$crewed – you got it. But guess what, even if we did, they still would not be happy. The Progressive policies put in place by the federal government has made us a socialist nation. All this talk about Obama being a socialist is true, he is. But socialism was well in place before he started ramping it up.
Towncrier
February 21st, 2012
1:34 pm
“Please show me any politician or pundit who has said that we ONLY have a revenue problem.”
Please tell all of us what proportion of the debt problem can be attributed to spending and which to lower taxes in percentages.
Joseph
February 21st, 2012
1:35 pm
Steve – USA (I support “None Of The Above”):
Absolutely it was but can you find one lie? Nope… That’s why Media Matters ordered Jay and his ilk to do some damage control before this becomes more and more of an issue… Howling about birth control is about to play out… No one really cares anyway…
Corey
February 21st, 2012
1:36 pm
Dow inches over 13,000 12:16 p.m
Somewhere in a red state a Republican just peed in his pants.
godless heathen©
February 21st, 2012
1:37 pm
Fred,
rags made the point that Hong Kong was less affected by economic downturn because of a lack of government interference, if I understood him correctly. You went all off the hook about how stupid Republicans are for believing that HK is not a part of China. I believe that is called diversion instead of addressing his point.
Recon 0311 2533
February 21st, 2012
1:37 pm
“In other words, it wasn’t a “failure”
Adam, it depends on how you measure failure. If you say that the stimulus was to keep unemployment from rising above 8% and it did in fact rise above 8% therefore failing to meet a forecast you could say it failed. If you say that the stimulus would have unemployment at 6% by this time and it failed to reach 6% you can say it failed. Some make the creditable argument that true unemployment is between 15 and 20 percent. If that’s true and most agree that it’s probably close to those percentages then the stimulus was indeed a failure.
Bill Orvis White
February 21st, 2012
1:38 pm
Obama’s stimulus didn’t work. It’s time to remove this failure, democratically elect a real man who WILL cut taxe$, regulation and overturn ObamaCare.
Amen,
Bill
JohnnyReb
February 21st, 2012
1:38 pm
Generation$crewed – pay little attention to Fred and others who try to take the intellectual high ground. Many are well educated, but when it comes down to it they jump from debating to personal attacks when they run out of legitimate rebuttal. Higher education does not have a monopoly on truth. As Reagan stated, the problem with the Left is they know so much that is not true.
ITS ALL BUSHS FAULT
February 21st, 2012
1:40 pm
Stimulate the economy, Vote Democratic……..2012
Generation$crewed
February 21st, 2012
1:40 pm
Fred ™
February 21st, 2012
1:33 pm
In other words I called you upon your lies about me yesterday, and you have no explaination for your reason to lie about me other than you disagreed with me and chose not to debate but instead make up lies.
That was your choice.
As to you not reading my comments I assure you I will be up tonight not sleeping about it.
As to your comment about protecting your time as you get older…..
Really, from your comments I have seen the last two days your time seems to be seriously underprotected.
ITS ALL BUSHS FAULT
February 21st, 2012
1:42 pm
GOP hates america
Adam
February 21st, 2012
1:43 pm
Towncrier: “Please show me any politician or pundit who has said that we ONLY have a revenue problem.”
Please tell all of us what proportion of the debt problem can be attributed to spending and which to lower taxes in percentages.
So you admit we have both a spending AND a revenue problem?
Fred ™
February 21st, 2012
1:43 pm
Towncrier
February 21st, 2012
1:27 pm
“I think everyone EXCEPT the Republicans are concerned about the massive debt. The REST of us think we should cut spending and raise taxes, but the republicans refuse to entertain this idea.”
The Republicans are adverse to tax increases and the Democrats (if the truth be known) are adverse to spending cuts. The Republicans want to reform the tax code, which apparently the Democrats are loathe to do. Raising the taxes on millionaires only will do next to nothing to solve the debt problem – it would be a drop in the proverbial bucket. Taxes have to be raised on the middle class as well to make some difference. Spending is the bigger cause of our problems by far. Wars and entitlement programs escalating out of control are the biggest culprits.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Exactly. Look at the past. We have tried spending cuts alone: fail. We have tried cutting taxes (because mytholoically it raises more tax revenue); fail. We have tried cutting taxes AND cutting spending: fail.
The last option is why the republicans are with grounds, skeptical. The so called “spending cuts” never happened. That is easy to fix.
For every xbillion dollars ACTUALLY cut from the budget (and not snuck back in elsewhere), then we raise taxes by .x percent.
We cut stuff like oil and farm subsidies. it’s really quite easy except the Republicans refuse to talk, to compromise, to do anything except scream no and throw aberrational temper tantrums. I know the radio show folks aren’t seeing it, but the rest of us are, even those leftists. (But they don’t count anyway, they are going to vote democrat no matter what.)
There are several of us independents on here and we keep telling you far rightists what you are doing wrong and how you can fix it. Do you think about it and tell us thank you? Oh HELL NO. You cuss us and call us socialists, or leftists, or democrats, just because we don’t walk lock step with you. You are doing a GREAT job of convincing us………….
Of convincing us you are asshats we want no part of. I keep saying it, it scares HELL out of me when I look around and the Democratic party has the appearance of being the sane, rational ones………
It should scare you too. Ya’ll Republicans need to take a hard look in the mirror.
Adam
February 21st, 2012
1:44 pm
JohnnyReb: The Progressive policies put in place by the federal government has made us a socialist nation. All this talk about Obama being a socialist is true, he is. But socialism was well in place before he started ramping it up.
And I bet you think theology means environmentalism too….
Joseph
February 21st, 2012
1:45 pm
Corey:
Yes because Repubs are smart enough to invest and actually want to see a profit. Wait a minute. I thought Obama and the dems were gonna punish all those Wall St fat cats and curb and cap their salaries? What happened?
Towncrier
February 21st, 2012
1:45 pm
“So you admit we have both a spending AND a revenue problem?”
Sure. Now will you answer the question I put to you?
Adam
February 21st, 2012
1:46 pm
And don’t worry, towncrier, I have an article coming up that will explain everything in vivid detail using actual FACTS and eliminating any reason you might see the problem as one sided (unless facts are ignored)
ITS ALL BUSHS FAULT
February 21st, 2012
1:46 pm
Vote republican = Vote against your own best interests…….Obama……got your Mama……lol
Fred ™
February 21st, 2012
1:46 pm
HDB @ 1:28: Good article. Why was I thinking you were a far right winger? Anyway, lets see if this link to the article posts better:
http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/is-this-the-end-of-market-democracy/?hp
Generation$crewed
February 21st, 2012
1:46 pm
JohnnyReb
February 21st, 2012
1:38 pm
Trust me not that highly offended by offensive people.
But I refuse to allow them to lie about me and ignore it, as they will most certainly do the same to others on down the line.
It is not my concern that any of you agree with my ideas or beliefs, they are mine and not those of another. Just don’t appreciate folks flat out lying about me.
Curious Observer
February 21st, 2012
1:47 pm
. . .then when you were finished and decided at 1 year you needed a new one, a charity benefited. Looks like everyone won.
No, it looks as though he filed a fraudulent federal tax return. Since his basis for the golf cart was zero, given that the government paid the entire cost through a tax credit, he was not entitled to take a tax write-off. I hope a good IRS agent is reading his entry.
Steve - USA (I support "None Of The Above")
February 21st, 2012
1:47 pm
Corey – “Dow inches over 13,000 12:16 p.m, Somewhere in a red state a Republican just peed in his pants.”
Why? The blue States hate Wall Street remember? If you forgot, read the comments last week in the blog about Romney and Wall Street.
Fred ™
February 21st, 2012
1:48 pm
JohnnyReb
February 21st, 2012
1:31 pm
Adam – I know how to post a link, but thank you. People often skip the links so I tried to post a grid.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I would venture to guess that mostly the far righties here skip links posted by any but themselves. The rest of us try to read and collect information so we can make an informed decision……..
WOODSTOCK MIKE
February 21st, 2012
1:48 pm
This morning Obama made the comment that he won’t support an economy where only a few do well and the rest struggle to get by. What country is he talking about? I can’t believe Democrats don’t look at this comment and call it a complete and utter lie. In American millions and millions of people are doing incredibly well. I America people live better than any country in the world hands down and it’s not even close! What a pathetic lie and political strategy. I would be embarassed to support anyone that made comments like that.
JOSE
February 21st, 2012
1:49 pm
Jay- What you fail is that the wrong questions were asked.
Was there a better way to structure the ARRA so that money spent was direct into the economy?
Was there a lot of waste in the ARRA?
Did the ARRA benefit more directly to Unions and Government workers than to private sector workers?
Were shovel ready jobs shovel ready?
Did the ARRA only replace money that was to be spent at the state level so therefore was a transfer payment and not a STIMULUS?
Was there a better way to spend 1 trillion dollars that could have been TRANFORMATIVE to the U.S. economy?
Tape your feathers on and ask these questions.
WOODSTOCK MIKE
February 21st, 2012
1:49 pm
Let me ask this to a Democrat. Is someone that lives in a 300K home driving a BMW in the 1% or the 99%?
Towncrier
February 21st, 2012
1:50 pm
“And don’t worry, towncrier, I have an article coming up that will explain everything in vivid detail using actual FACTS and eliminating any reason you might see the problem as one sided (unless facts are ignored).”
No need. I don’t see the problem as one sided. But it IS lopsided. A 50-50 solution, therefore, would hardly solve the problem. The government simply cannot (as we cannot personally) keep spending more than it has without going bankrupt.
md
February 21st, 2012
1:50 pm
“Forty-six percent agreed; just 12 percent disagreed. Another 29 percent said they were uncertain or ventured no opinion. ”
For those needing to decipher today’s new math, that would be 56% didn’t “agree” for some reason or another with only 2% having no opinion……
Some interesting comments from some of those economists:
“Stanford economist Kenneth Judd, who declared himself uncertain about the stimulus’ effect on unemployment, appeared less than impressed with the studies cited by his University of Chicago colleague, saying: “There has been no serious study of this. Most analyses that try to analyze 2008-2011 are too simple and/or plagued with mathematical errors.” ”
“His Stanford colleague Caroline Hoxby, who strongly disagreed that the stimulus lowered unemployment, offered that “the depressing effect of future liabilities likely exceeded benefits.””
“On the second question as to whether the stimulus’ benefits exceeded its costs, Goolsbee, who agreed that it did, explained: “This all depends on how much you value avoiding short-run collapse versus the costs long-term.””
“Robert Hall of Stanford, who was uncertain, commented: “I’d agree that the results are likely to be on the positive side, but I can think of future crashes caused by the accumulation of debt.””
“His Stanford colleague, Edward Lazear, who strongly disagreed the stimulus had a positive overall effect, commented: “The cost is the enormous and tough-to-reverse growth of government. This swamps even high estimates of benefits.””
In other words, the jury is still out and will be for quite some time……..this seems like judging the battle vs the war…………..
WOODSTOCK MIKE
February 21st, 2012
1:50 pm
It’s truly unbelievable Obama can make comments like “only a few do well in America and the rest struggle to get by” and Democrats sit there and support it. How pathetic.
WOODSTOCK MIKE
February 21st, 2012
1:51 pm
I guess I must be a genius because I have way more than I could possibly need and so do most people I know. I guess I must be in the 1%.
Jefferson
February 21st, 2012
1:52 pm
Mike you should be embarrased that the GOP is so weak and uncreditable that they do nothing for your support.
Adam
February 21st, 2012
1:52 pm
Towncrier:
Preface: Historical revenue as a percent of GDP hovers between 18.5-20.0%
Historical Spending as a percentage of GDP hovers between 20-22%
Historically, we have had mostly a spending problem.
Revenue in percent of GDP in 2009: 14.9%
Spending in Percent of GDP in 2009: 25.0%
Revenue in percent of GDP in 2010: 14.9%
Spending in Percent of GDP in 2010: 23.8%
So to answer your question directly, our problem is that we are spending about 6-7% more in percent of GDP than we should, and taking in about 3-5% less in revenue than we should be.
Fred ™
February 21st, 2012
1:52 pm
godless heathen©
February 21st, 2012
1:37 pm
Fred,
rags made the point that Hong Kong was less affected by economic downturn because of a lack of government interference, if I understood him correctly. You went all off the hook about how stupid Republicans are for believing that HK is not a part of China. I believe that is called diversion instead of addressing his point.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I went a LITTLE further than that Godless: I showed 5 things that “lack of government interference” meant as well as noting that Hong Kong was NOT a Country. He then posted a link from the Heritage Foundation to “prove me wrong” because the dummies at the heriutage foundation listed Hong Kong as a Country. Sorry, the Heritage Foundation does not have the authority to grant sovereignty to CHinese Islands and Provinces.
Any thing else?
Recon 0311 2533
February 21st, 2012
1:53 pm
Jose, You’re kind of over Jay’s head and he’ll need to search around for another cut and paste chart to reply, so don’t hold your breath waiting for an answer.
Joseph
February 21st, 2012
1:53 pm
The entire cost of the Iraq War was less than Barack Obama’s failed stimulus bill.
md
February 21st, 2012
1:53 pm
And for those needing to decipher my math, that would be 54%…………
Fred ™
February 21st, 2012
1:53 pm
Bill Orvis White
February 21st, 2012
1:38 pm
Obama’s stimulus didn’t work. It’s time to remove this failure, democratically elect a real man who WILL cut taxe$, regulation and overturn ObamaCare.
Amen,
Bill
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Bill, I must have missed your answer. Are you on your way to snake out my pipes?
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2012
1:54 pm
BIG LETTER MIKE
Not nearly as pathetic as those who don’t recognize the truth of it.
Can you get your big old camel butt through the eye of that there needle?
Towncrier
February 21st, 2012
1:55 pm
“This morning Obama made the comment that he won’t support an economy where only a few do well and the rest struggle to get by.”
I guess he therefore wouldn’t support the historical economy of this nation for most of the time it has existed. Rhetoric (at which he is adept) matters little. We have a VERY serious problem that needs to get solved. He simply fails in that regard.
Poor Boy from Alabama
February 21st, 2012
1:56 pm
JB,
A couple of quick points:
1. The majority of the economists polled came from a handful of schools on the east and west coasts – MIT, Harvard, Yale, UC-Berkeley, Stanford, and Princeton. Paul Krugman has called folks from these schools “salt water economists” for obvious reasons. Almost all the folks at these schools are disciples of Keynes. It would go against all their training to knock one of the biggest Keynesian experiments of all times.
Of the six University of Chicago economists polled, only Austan Goolsbee and one other agreed that the benefits of the stimulus would end up exceeding its costs. The other Chicago economist who agreed, Richard Thaler, is hardly a free market guy. Half of the Chicago economists polled said they were “uncertain” as to whether the benefits of the stimulus outweighed its costs. One had “no opinion”.
2. Austan Goolsbee was an adviser to the Obama campaign back in 2008 and headed the President’s Council of Economic Advisers before he returned to the University of Chicago. Other Chicago folks have ties to the Obama administration as well. Maybe Booth isn’t quite as free market as you would suggest. Equally important, Goolsbee admits he doesn’t understand why the recession continues to linger:
http://www.chicagobooth.edu/bfeo/2012/news/bfeo-2012-01-13.aspx
Commenting on the state of the US economy, Austan Goolsbee, Robert P. Gwinn Professor of Economics, admitted that reasons for “the slow recovery from the deepest recession in our lifetimes remains a bit of a puzzle.
“In the past, big recessions tend to be followed by big recoveries, and this one was not,” he said. Although Goolsbee thought that the next 12 to 18 months were likely to remain erratic, he identified sources for optimism, such as the moderate growth pace of the US economy prior to the shocks of the Arab Spring and Japanese tsunami mentioned by Kroszner.
“If the output growth rate well exceeds productivity, you will see significant improvements in the job market—and we did see that,” Goolsbee noted. “But, in 2011, we slowed down, and as long as we are growing 2 percent or less, the job market will never improve. Our ultimate challenge is getting the growth rate up. It’s by far the most important thing we have to do.”
Goolsbee noted that he believed it was taking longer to recover from the current recession because it was not possible to revert to an economy whose expansion was heavily weighted in residential construction and consumer spending growth.
So a couple of years after spending $800 billion Goolsbee essentially admits he doesn’t know why the economy is still weak.
3. It’s impossible to spend $800 billion without boosting the economy at least a tad. That works out to about $7,500 per household. It would have been interesting to ask these distinguished academicians what would have happened if Uncle Sam had sent every household a check for $7,500. Would that have been better than the stimulus? Things that make you go “Hmmm?”
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2012
1:56 pm
Joseph
February 21st, 2012
1:53 pm
The entire cost of the Iraq War was less than Barack Obama’s failed stimulus bill.
***Not intended to be a factual statment*****
JOSE
February 21st, 2012
1:58 pm
RECON, that is my point. Liberals cannot process or analyze facts or statistics. They only process emotion. A percentage of the $1 trillion dollars spent to convert the commercial vehicle fleets in this country to CNG and biodiesel all of which are produced here and spent here is a stimulus. Giving money to New York to fix a bridge that they have ignored for years and where going to fix anyway is not STIMULUS, its a transfer of payments. Taxpayers of the well managed states subsidized the incompetency of the mismanaged states. THATS NOT FAIR.
Towncrier
February 21st, 2012
1:58 pm
“In other words, the jury is still out and will be for quite some time……..this seems like judging the battle vs the war…………..”
Good post, md. It seems that Jay is more interested in propaganda at times than truth (though that can be said of all of us).
Adam
February 21st, 2012
1:59 pm
JOSE: Liberals cannot process or analyze facts or statistics. They only process emotion.
You’ve got that backwards, dude. But I appreciate the sort-of attempt to be self-aware
Adam
February 21st, 2012
2:00 pm
JOSE: Taxpayers of the well managed states subsidized the incompetency of the mismanaged states. THATS NOT FAIR.
Shall we take a look at which states get the most federal money and which ones PAY the most federal money?
Keep Up--Te gusta losing numb nutz?
February 21st, 2012
2:01 pm
The entire cost of the Iraq War was less than Barack Obama’s failed stimulus bill.
Really, seems we have years of taking care of vets with injuries. The cost is expect to exceetd $4 trillion. So unless you have some new math $4 trillion > $789 billion.
So much for your “facts”….. but they are facty like. Seems to be a common problem.
Fred ™
February 21st, 2012
2:02 pm
I was awakened last night at 2:38AM by the sound of 8 quickly fired rounds of what sounded to me like a high caliber hand gun. I have been searching media all days and can’t find anything about it……….
Mr. Golf
February 21st, 2012
2:02 pm
Fred ™
February 21st, 2012
1:18 pm
Looks like it worked. you helped keep some golf cart maker employed as well as the sales staff where you bought it and then when you were finished and decided at 1 year you needed a new one, a charity benefited. Looks like everyone won.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Fred, I agree the answer to solve our economic issues and reign is massive government spending is to over free golf carts to everyone.
BTW I already had two golf carts before I got the free one. One at my primary residence and the other at one of my vacation homes. I appreciate the President subsidizing my 1% lifestyle. I just purchased a Chevy Volt for my son who is attending very expensive private college and hoping to get the increased $10000 tax credit from $7500 the President Obama is offering in his new budget.
JOSE
February 21st, 2012
2:02 pm
Adam
Your response only confirms my statement. Your response is an emotional response. Liberals talk about FAIRNESS yet when asked to DEFINE and OUTLINE fairness they cannot give me a quantitative response.
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2012
2:03 pm
“Factiness” is the step cousin once removed from “Truthiness”
Towncrier
February 21st, 2012
2:03 pm
“So to answer your question directly, our problem is that we are spending about 6-7% more in percent of GDP than we should, and taking in about 3-5% less in revenue than we should be.”
I’ll take a 3:1 spending reductions: tax increases solution. But real and not phantom spending reductions (like the winding down of the wars).
JOSE
February 21st, 2012
2:04 pm
Adam
It is not the responsibility of the federal government nor other states to correct the problems in mismanaged states. Your attempt to be logical only proves my point.
Towncrier
February 21st, 2012
2:05 pm
“Shall we take a look at which states get the most federal money and which ones PAY the most federal money?”
Let’s start with California, shall we?
Keep Up--Te gusta losing numb nutz?
February 21st, 2012
2:05 pm
Well sure Granny…. all “factiness” has “truthiness” but not all “truthiness” is “factiness”
Your mileage may vary.
Towncrier
February 21st, 2012
2:08 pm
“Liberals talk about FAIRNESS yet when asked to DEFINE and OUTLINE fairness they cannot give me a quantitative response.”
Exactly. It remains a nebulous concept until it is specifically defined. It is but one of many political terms used to emotionally rouse people in order to gain their votes. Almost all politicians are guilty of using such terms in this manner.
Fred ™
February 21st, 2012
2:09 pm
Mr. Golf
February 21st, 2012
2:02 pm
Fred ™
February 21st, 2012
1:18 pm
Looks like it worked. you helped keep some golf cart maker employed as well as the sales staff where you bought it and then when you were finished and decided at 1 year you needed a new one, a charity benefited. Looks like everyone won.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Fred, I agree the answer to solve our economic issues and reign is massive government spending is to over free golf carts to everyone.
BTW I already had two golf carts before I got the free one. One at my primary residence and the other at one of my vacation homes. I appreciate the President subsidizing my 1% lifestyle. I just purchased a Chevy Volt for my son who is attending very expensive private college and hoping to get the increased $10000 tax credit from $7500 the President Obama is offering in his new budget.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Sweet. Looks like life is grand for you and by spending your money as you are, you are also ensuring that the economy moves along and people here are kept employed. I applaud you.
I hope the “expensive private college” is Emory so that the money is kept local, but that is merely for selfish reasons as I derive a direct financial gain from the well being of Emory
Fred ™
February 21st, 2012
2:10 pm
Towncrier: I responded to your comment towards me. No rebuttal or affirmation?
JOSE
February 21st, 2012
2:15 pm
Towncrier
The DEMOCRAPS are the FAIRNESS nazis. It is they who push this agenda. I want to know exactly what DEMOCRAPS DEFINE and QUANTIFY as a FAIR TAX CODE. Whenever they are asked they hem and haw. Raising taxes on the rich is not an answer. I want to know what is a FAIR TAX CODE. Give me the rates for each income level and type. DEMOCRAPS won’t do it. On the flip side REPUGNANTS want to cut taxes. They dont care about FAIRNESS, yet the will not give a specifc to CUT TAXES TO WHAT RATES ON WHAT INCOME AT WHAT LEVELS.
Adam
February 21st, 2012
2:17 pm
JOSE: Your response only confirms my statement.
Your response to an emotional statement only confirms that you have it backwards.
Towncrier
February 21st, 2012
2:19 pm
“Towncrier: I responded to your comment towards me. No rebuttal or affirmation?
Sorry…I missed that. Had to go back a page or two. I am very conservative, but I do identify myself as a Republican per se. That party is usually for me the lesser of two evils. I do not think the Republicans are always right and the Democrats are always wrong. There are solutions to our problems and a true leader gets people of opposing viewpoints to come together to find them. The give-me-no new taxes-or give me death stance of the ultra conservative Republicans is not realistic or practical. But they are right, I think, to emphasize real spending cuts over tax increases.
Adam
February 21st, 2012
2:20 pm
JOSE: The DEMOCRAPS are the FAIRNESS nazis
Three emotional buzz words. See? You DO have it backwards.
Now, if you want to talk about fairness, that is an argument that is not based in fact. But to be fair, that is a messaging thing, which IS based in fact – the fact that a lot of people in independent and conservative circles respond to tinkering with words more than they do to facts. Frank Luntz also knows this, as does Newt Gingrich. Of course, their tactic was about changing words to make people more fearful and divided. Fairness is about uniting people. Only if you start to try to define fairness from a conservative perspective, indoctrinated with the false idea that liberals want to divide people, do you come up with reasons that “fair” is “divisive.”
Keep Up--Te gusta losing numb nutz?
February 21st, 2012
2:21 pm
Well geez….. when you get past all of Jose’s childish namecalling and labels used by those who delightfully remain free from intellect, why he has used the term “fair tax” and yet I have yet to see him define what is “fair”. But then “fair tax” is an easy exercise for those without much sophistication in analysis but lots of blowhardness.
Adam
February 21st, 2012
2:21 pm
Towncirer: Let’s start with California, shall we?
Ok, that’s one. And not even the worst one. What’s the worst one? Come on, you know the answer – I know you do.
Josey Whales
February 21st, 2012
2:22 pm
Bill White – last year, Tebow was Jesus, well atleast to the people in the South. This year, Jeremy Lin is Jesus and Jesus(Jermey) said he will not remove himself from the WhiteHouse(Messiah).
If you couldn’t follow that logic, no cookies and milk for you tonight while you watch foxnews
JohnnyReb
February 21st, 2012
2:23 pm
Here’s some fairness for you – if the Top 10% of wager earners make 43% of all income, they should be paying no more than 43% of all federal income taxes. But no, they pay 70% of all income taxes.
In other words, if left unchecked the Left would kill the goose because she is not laying the golden eggs fast enough or in the quantities they consume.
Towncrier
February 21st, 2012
2:25 pm
“I want to know what is a FAIR TAX CODE.”
Agreed. I personally would support some kind of national and state consumption tax (as do, apparently, most economists) as opposed to a personal income tax. That would be fair, in my view. It would have to be very well though out, however.
Keep Up--Te gusta losing numb nutz?
February 21st, 2012
2:27 pm
So Johnny, a child sets up a lemonade stand and makes a $2.50 profit. Someone should pay taxes on that income, right?
carlosgvv
February 21st, 2012
2:27 pm
Jose – 2:02 “they cannot give me a quantitative response”
Translation: They cannot give me a response which squares with the inane Tea Party concept of fairness which is what passes for logic with my mindless heros.
timbo
February 21st, 2012
2:28 pm
Wow, didn’t take long for that ‘birth control’ trial balloon to burst. I guess this is the new balloon, throw out some numbers that some economists think that the stimulus bill actually did some good. Dems are getting desperate.
JohnnyReb
February 21st, 2012
2:28 pm
Towncrier – you are on the correct track with the consumption tax, but someone is directing you down a side rail. Once the bare percentage to dollar is tinered with to favor one group over another, we end up eventually right back to where we are today.
Adam
February 21st, 2012
2:29 pm
JohnnyReb: if the Top 10% of wager earners make 43% of all income, they should be paying no more than 43% of all federal income taxes.
Incorrect. T hat is known as a FLAT TAX, which just about everyone sane is opposed to.
JOSE
February 21st, 2012
2:30 pm
Adam
Fairness is the principle that lead to socialism and communism. It is from that concept that it is used to evoke an emotional response to mask any logical thought to examine it. If DEMOCRAPS enact a tax that is fair, who is the judge of it? It cannot be measured.
JohnnyReb
February 21st, 2012
2:31 pm
Keep Up–Te gusta losing numb nutz?
February 21st, 2012
2:27 pm
“So Johnny, a child sets up a lemonade stand and makes a $2.50 profit. Someone should pay taxes on that income, right?”
Let me type this slowly….. No….a child running a lemonade stand does not pay federal income tax.
JOSE
February 21st, 2012
2:31 pm
adam
A FLAT TAX IS THE MOST FAIR OF ALL
yet its the one the DEMOCRAPS cry foul most about because it is FAIR
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2012
2:31 pm
mike
you are becoming tedious, again.
Adam
February 21st, 2012
2:32 pm
JOSE: Fairness is the principle that lead to socialism and communism ….If DEMOCRAPS
Really, you ought to self-examine. You are falling for one of the most human of fallacies – that because you think primarily in emotional terms, that so does everyone else.
Keep Up--Te gusta losing numb nutz?
February 21st, 2012
2:32 pm
Johnny, why they made income and would be part of your 100% calculation. So who makes up their %? You mean some group is going to pay more than their % of the total pie so your children don’t pay income tax on income?
Adam
February 21st, 2012
2:35 pm
JOSE: A FLAT TAX IS THE MOST FAIR OF ALL
I strongly disagree. Flat Tax means those who can least afford to pay tax have a reduced ability to survive, whereas those at the top, well beyond the poverty line, are not hurt at all by the tax rate. It is unfair to those on the bottom to make it harder for them to survive.
JamVet - My god man, protect the billionaires!
February 21st, 2012
2:36 pm
The entire cost of the Iraq War was less than…
Say that garbage to the four thousand, five hundred plus American families who got back nothing more than a folded American flag.
http://www.historiann.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/stfu.jpg
MiltonMan
February 21st, 2012
2:36 pm
Oh yes, the Booth School. The same school that bascially labeled Obama a liar when he stated that the “Cash for Clunkers” program pulled car sales ahead 4+ years when in reality that was about 8+ months.
Also, would be interested in knowing the 40 experts answer to this question:
Was Obama truthful when he stated “shovel ready projects”?
JohnnyReb
February 21st, 2012
2:36 pm
Adam – when I went through boot camp in 1966, my TI introduced me to the term “deep $hit.” We are in that state presently in this country because of all the free rides. There are almost enough people on the government dole to vote out any chance of righting the ship. You need to ask yourself what will happen to us when so many vote against character and personal responsibility that our Nation comes to an end? Never happen you say. Well, to that I say BS. It can happen and we are close to being there.
Big Brother
February 21st, 2012
2:37 pm
The following are 18 statistics that show the economy has not improved since this administration took office:
#1 Today there are 88 million working age Americans that are not employed and that are not looking for employment. That is an all-time record high.
#2 When Barack Obama was elected, the percentage of unemployed Americans that had been out of work for more than 52 weeks was less than 15%. Today, it is above 30%.
#3 There are 1.2 million fewer jobs in America today than there were when Barack Obama was inaugurated.
#4 When Barack Obama first took office, the number of “long-term unemployed workers” in the United States was approximately 2.6 million. Today, that number is sitting at 5.6 million.
#5 The average duration of unemployment in the United States is hovering close to an all-time record high.
#6 During the Obama administration, worker health insurance costs have risen by 23 percent.
#7 Since Barack Obama has been president, the average price of a gallon of gasoline in the United States has increased by 90 percent.
#8 Since Barack Obama has been president, home values in the United States have declined by another 13 percent.
#9 Under Barack Obama, new home sales in the U.S. set a brand new all-time record low in 2009, they set a brand new all-time record low again in 2010, and they set a brand new all-time record low once again during 2011.
#10 Since Barack Obama took office, the number of Americans living in poverty has risen by more than 6 million.
#11 Since Barack Obama entered the White House, the number of Americans on food stamps has increased from 32 million to 46 million.
#12 The amount of money that the federal government gives directly to Americans has increased by 32 percent since Barack Obama entered the White House.
#13 According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the percentage of Americans living in “extreme poverty” is now sitting at an all-time high.
#14 When Barack Obama first took office, an ounce of gold was going for about $850. Today an ounce of gold costs more than $1700 an ounce.
#15 Since Barack Obama became president, the size of the U.S. national debt has increased by 44 percent.
#16 During Barack Obama’s first two years in office, the U.S. government added more to the U.S. national debt than the first 100 U.S. Congresses combined.
#17 During the Obama administration, the U.S. government has accumulated more debt than it did from the time that George Washington took office to the time that Bill Clinton took office.
#18 The U.S. national debt has been increasing by an average of more than 4 billion dollars per day since the beginning of the Obama administration..
Towncrier
February 21st, 2012
2:38 pm
“Ok, that’s one. And not even the worst one. What’s the worst one? Come on, you know the answer – I know you do.”
I don’t know. I am unable to find current data (http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/266.html). Up until 2005, In terms of percentages, most of the southern states take in more than they give. But that was before the Great Recession hit us. My impression is that now, badly managed states like California, are veritable black holes.
Mick
February 21st, 2012
2:38 pm
**Well, to that I say BS. It can happen and we are close to being there.**
Yes, and you can thank the previous president for putting us squarely on the course…
md
February 21st, 2012
2:39 pm
“So Johnny, a child sets up a lemonade stand and makes a $2.50 profit. Someone should pay taxes on that income, right?”
Probably wouldn’t be a bad idea to teach them early and often……welcome to the real world kid.
Towncrier
February 21st, 2012
2:41 pm
“Towncrier – you are on the correct track with the consumption tax, but someone is directing you down a side rail. Once the bare percentage to dollar is tinered with to favor one group over another, we end up eventually right back to where we are today.”
I agree that politicians can corrupt almost anything. What is exasperating is to be always flooded with rhetoric but never given any specifics on paper. Newt at least was willing to put things on paper for us to see.
Mick
February 21st, 2012
2:41 pm
big brother
More than half of your stats should be attributed to the previous president. It is more than slanted…
Joe Hussein Mama
February 21st, 2012
2:42 pm
Jose — “Liberals cannot process or analyze facts or statistics. They only process emotion.”
and
“The DEMOCRAPS are the FAIRNESS nazis.”
Towncrier
February 21st, 2012
2:44 pm
“I strongly disagree. Flat Tax means those who can least afford to pay tax have a reduced ability to survive, whereas those at the top, well beyond the poverty line, are not hurt at all by the tax rate. It is unfair to those on the bottom to make it harder for them to survive.”
You have to make buying essential goods and services for low income people possible – either by exempting those things (which I think would lead to a lot of fraud) or simply lowering or eliminating corporate tax rates in exchange for a higher minimum wage (say, 9-10 dollars).
JohnnyReb
February 21st, 2012
2:46 pm
md – don’t be tagging alonmg with KeepUp. It’s ridiculous and you know it. He started the lemonade stand as a canard. I don’t even know why I respond to you, except to point out that when the Left runs out of legitimate rebuttal they always go to personal attacks or in this case a canard.