Top economists overwhelmingly back stimulus
Two important questions with relevance to the 2012 presidential campaign:
1.) Did the 2009 stimulus bill create jobs and lower the unemployment rate, or was it a waste of taxpayers’ money?
2.) In the final accounting, will the benefits of the Obama stimulus package end up outweighing its costs and risks?
The University of Chicago’s Booth School of Business put those questions to more than 40 of the top economists in the country, representing a wide range of viewpoints.
(The Booth School itself, one of the most respected business schools in the country, has long been associated with a more conservative emphasis on free markets).
Here’s what they found:
“Question A: Because of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009, the U.S. unemployment rate was lower at the end of 2010 than it would have been without the stimulus bill. Agree or disagree?”
Eighty percent agreed. Four percent disagreed. And the two who disagreed acknowledged that they were far from certain in their opinion.
The results of the second question, while less overwhelming, were still strongly supportive of the policy:
“Question B: Taking into account all of the ARRA’s economic consequences — including the economic costs of raising taxes to pay for the spending, its effects on future spending, and any other likely future effects — the benefits of the stimulus will end up exceeding its costs. Agree or disagree?”
Forty-six percent agreed; just 12 percent disagreed. Another 29 percent said they were uncertain or ventured no opinion.
By a 4-1 margin, in a poll conducted by a respected institution with a conservative reputation, a cross section of the nation’s most respected economists believe that the stimulus would prove to be a net positive for the economy, even after it is paid back. By a margin of 20-1, they believe that it produced jobs and lowered the unemployment rate.
Of course, I understand that such things must be weighed against the fact that Rush and Sean have very different opinions.
– Jay Bookman
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729 comments Add your comment
JOE Cool-Republicans Call Him MESSIAH, I Just Call Him Mr. President
February 21st, 2012
11:59 am
Brosephus
February 21st, 2012
11:54 am
Love knowth no colour is a beautiful thing.
Midori
February 21st, 2012
11:59 am
Talking Head –
yes, there are fewer employed by the govt. today than there was before Obama took office.
JOE Cool-Republicans Call Him MESSIAH, I Just Call Him Mr. President
February 21st, 2012
12:00 pm
“DOW BREAKS 13000″
Socialism, Marxism, TELEPROMPTER, $6 gas……..
Midori
February 21st, 2012
12:00 pm
Mrs. G — listening to the radio and the news about the DOW is the top story
Steve - USA (I support "None Of The Above")
February 21st, 2012
12:01 pm
Shouldn’t the answers in each graph total 100%? Why only 86 and 87?
I must be missing something.
kaycee
February 21st, 2012
12:01 pm
Am I missing something? The sums of the responses for both questions do not add up to 100%.
Brosephus
February 21st, 2012
12:02 pm
Well we payed nearly $500 billion in interest last year.
Paying $500 billion in interest on a balance of $15 trillion is one thing. To add that $500 billion to only the cost of the stimulus is factually incorrect and does not represent the true nature of that interest payments origin.
Jefferson
February 21st, 2012
12:04 pm
You don’t run a business like you run a household, it would be wrong to run the gov’t like it was a household, but it makes for talking points.
Steve - USA (I support "None Of The Above")
February 21st, 2012
12:05 pm
Kaycee,
Same time, that was weird.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 21st, 2012
12:05 pm
M. Righty — “since the stimulous this administration has spent more than three trillion dollars in borrowed money with no improvement in the economy. In fact the economy, by any measurement, is worse today”
By *any* measurement, you say?
http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/21/10466512-dow-crosses-13000-for-first-time-since-may-2008
USMC
February 21st, 2012
12:06 pm
Breaking News…
The Obama administration is now PIVOTING to “jobs, jobs, jobs”…
Unemployment Climbing to Nine Percent in February
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/gallup-finds-unemployment-climbing-nine-percent-february
Joe Hussein Mama
February 21st, 2012
12:07 pm
M. Righty — “Still waiting for someone to point out a time when sanctions worked. Just one. I know you liberals have suggested many times we should impose sanctions so you must have an example of when thery worked.”
Iraq, 1991 – 2003.
ragnar danneskjold
February 21st, 2012
12:09 pm
Dear Jay, I have to concede that I think the “stimulus” produced jobs, mostly in government and in those companies that contributed to the Obama 2008 campaign. I do not think the value of the jobs created remotely approaches the costs incurred to produce those jobs. I think Barro’s gound-breaking attempt to prove the Keynesian multiplier is persuasive.
Fred ™
February 21st, 2012
12:09 pm
ragnar danneskjold
February 21st, 2012
11:33 am
Dear Snarky @ 11:30, perhaps the absence of slowdown in Hong Kong, where there is also an absence of economic interference by the government, would suffice as evidence for you?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Are you really that stupid? Please tell me you were drunk or something when you posted that. Wow.
Hong Kong, let’s look at the cost saving benefits of Hong Kong that are a direct result of no Government interference:
Slave Labor: Check
Unbreathable air: Check
Poisoned Water: Check
Child Labor: Check
No taxes only bribes: Check
No copy rights to worry about so you can bootleg and pirate anything: Check
Yeah, rags, we REALLY need to revert back to the 1800’s and become Hong Kong……..
Jefferson
February 21st, 2012
12:10 pm
“She’ll tell you ’bout the plane crash with gleem in her eye”…
carlosgvv
February 21st, 2012
12:14 pm
Actually, such things must be weighed against the fact that Romney, Gingrich and Santorum have very different opinions. And, since these men are all excellent Christians and personally talk to God every day, we must bow to their judgements and ignore those Socialist Atheist Business schools who only are plotting to keep that African Socialist Atheist anti-American Obama in power.
ragnar danneskjold
February 21st, 2012
12:14 pm
Dear Fred @ 12:09, agreed, that probably explains why everyone is leaving Hong Kong for more enlightened countries, such as China.
Fred ™
February 21st, 2012
12:15 pm
Jefferson
February 21st, 2012
12:10 pm
“She’ll tell you ’bout the plane crash with gleem in her eye”…
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This is Atlanta. We don’t get bubble-headed bleach-blondes………… darn it.
AmVet - Just say no to the War Pigs.
February 21st, 2012
12:15 pm
One other note on Reagan’s shameful non-response to the racist government is South Africa.
It was only after years of protests from the United Nations, faith-based institutions, US universities and American states and cities and major interests in the private sector that the Reagan regime even started paying lip service to the brutality in Johannesburg and elsewhere.
The anti-Apartheid movement in the U.S found that Washington was unwilling to get involved in economically isolating South Africa. The movement responded by organized lobbying of individual businesses and institutional investors to end their involvement with or investments in the apartheid state as a matter of corporate social responsibility.
Note those last three words – corporate social responsibility. I worked for a major US corporation that voluntarily disinvested from South Africa in the 1980s.
Does corporate social responsibility even exist anymore?
Fred ™
February 21st, 2012
12:17 pm
Dear Rags,
Hong Kong IS China. The British lease on the island expired in 1997. Welcome to the new century…….
And china is SO much better. The slave labor doesn’t have to be shipped across the water…………
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
February 21st, 2012
12:18 pm
Georgia House Democrats have scheduled a 3 p.m. hearing at the state Capitol today, to propose a bill that would ban Georgia males from seeking vasectomies. From the press release:
“Thousands of children are deprived of birth in this state every year because of the lack of state regulation over vasectomies,” said Rep. Yasmin Neal, author of the bill. “It is patently unfair that men can avoid unwanted fatherhood by presuming that their judgment over such matters is more valid than the judgment of the General Assembly, while women’s ability to decide is constantly up for debate throughout the United States.”
House Minority Leader Stacey Abrams added, “The Republican attack on women’s reproductive rights is unconscionable. What is more deplorable is the hypocrisy of HB 954’s author. If we follow his logic, we believe it is the obligation of this General Assembly to assert an equally invasive state interest in the reproductive habits of men and substitute the will of the government over the will of adult men.”
&%*#%#D@ librul Democrats! All we was trying to do was keep women from having abortions. Now they’re trying to take control of us men’s bodies!
Brosephus
February 21st, 2012
12:18 pm
Does corporate social responsibility even exist anymore?
A corporation’s sole purpose is to drive profits. Their responsibility is to profit.
ragnar danneskjold
February 21st, 2012
12:22 pm
Dear Fred @ 12:17, lest you remain deluded, heritage.org/index/ranking
Fred ™
February 21st, 2012
12:22 pm
I dedicate this song to those whom is applies, you know who you are:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaWt6Vu0evs&list=PL34747F023F11372B&index=19&feature=plpp_video
Ej Moosa
February 21st, 2012
12:23 pm
At some point you will have to repay all the dollars spent on stimulus plus interest.
The cost will far outweigh any perceived benefits in the long run.
But since when did Obama care about the long run?
Brosephus
February 21st, 2012
12:24 pm
RC
Seems like the ladies are beginning to fight back.
“Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.”
–Thomas Jefferson
TM
February 21st, 2012
12:25 pm
The first question is a no brainer, you don’t have to be an economist to know that dumping $1 trillon in to the economy would creat jobs. Question 2 require them to predict the future and all one has to do is read their comments to know its too early to tell until we figure out how we are going to pay the debt back and how that is going to affect the economy.
Peadawg
February 21st, 2012
12:25 pm
“Georgia House Democrats have scheduled a 3 p.m. hearing at the state Capitol today, to propose a bill that would ban Georgia males from seeking vasectomies.”
Bitches be crazy y’all!
Midori
February 21st, 2012
12:26 pm
um, Pea – to whom are you referring?
Bosch
February 21st, 2012
12:26 pm
“just look at how it was spent :
Okay, let’s do that. One third was tax cuts, and roughly that went to plug holes in hemorraghing state economies, and a whole other bunch of it (roughly) was spent funding projects many of which had already been proposed to many of the federal funding agencies that were denied in the past —
you can see it all here:
http://www.recovery.org
Fred ™
February 21st, 2012
12:28 pm
Rags: I don’t care what your dumbass Right wing Heritage “think tank” says, Hong Kong is CHINA. I know you Republicans hate history and education as a whole, but lying doesn’t change a thing. Refusing to “believe” a fact doesn’t change the fact. Educate youyrself and don’t post BS links that prove that you Republicans are stupid and list as sources sites that haven’t a clue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong
Bruno
February 21st, 2012
12:29 pm
The government can print money to help itself out. Eventually, that may lead to more problems, but when you’re the world reserve currency, there’s a bit of leeway with that which most other countries can nottake advantage of.
Brosephus–Excellent point. From my perspective, the only way we’re going to get this massive debt under control is to undergo massive inflation. How else are you going to pay off a $158,000 credit card with a $29,000 income?? Unfortunately, whenever countries undergo massive inflation, it ruins their economy.
Is anyone beside myself even mildly concerned about all this debt?? For me, it’s the only campaign issue I care about. That and repealing ObamaCare ASAP.
Bosch
February 21st, 2012
12:29 pm
“A corporation’s sole purpose is to drive profits. Their responsibility is to profit”
Which is why I laugh anytime any of the wingnuts here start harping about how “guvmint should be run like a bizness!” Good Lord.
Mr_B
February 21st, 2012
12:30 pm
Head: based on the number of full time federal employees per 1000 Americans, yes it is untrue. In absolute numbers, slightly larger.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/federal-eye/2010/09/how_many_federal_workers_are_t.html
CJ
February 21st, 2012
12:31 pm
Of course, I understand that such things must be weighed against the fact that Rush and Sean have very different opinions.
…and Kyle Wingfield.
Fred ™
February 21st, 2012
12:31 pm
Oh geez, the more I think about that the funnier it gets. The Heritage Foundation has granted Hong Kong Country hood lol? And Republicans BELIEVE that crap?
Just when i think it can’t get dumbed down any more, some Repub shows me they have not yet begun to plumb the depths of utter stupidity.
kaycee
February 21st, 2012
12:31 pm
Steve-USA,
Wow! What are the odds?
kaycee
February 21st, 2012
12:32 pm
Jay,
Are you sure those percentages are right?
Fred ™
February 21st, 2012
12:33 pm
Bruno
February 21st, 2012
12:29 pm
Is anyone beside myself even mildly concerned about all this debt?? For me, it’s the only campaign issue I care about. That and repealing ObamaCare ASAP.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I think everyone EXCEPT the Republicans are concerned about the massive debt. The REST of us think we should cut spending and raise taxes, but the republicans refuse to entertain this idea. They think that somehow we can cut enough out of the budget to pay for our former Presidents 2 unfunded wars.
I know, it’s as crazy as thinking Hong Kong isn’t under Chinese rule but there it is………..
Brosephus
February 21st, 2012
12:35 pm
From my perspective, the only way we’re going to get this massive debt under control is to undergo massive inflation. How else are you going to pay off a $158,000 credit card with a $29,000 income??
There’s always the option of robbing someone else and using the ill gotten gains. We haven’t done that before to pay down the debt, but there’s always a first time.
Fly-on-the-Wall
February 21st, 2012
12:37 pm
What’s sad in this discussion is that both sides will have their own ‘facts’ to put on display to disprove the other side. What we should be caring about is – Are more Americans going back to work? The answer is yes. Some might say the recovery act did that while others would say it was just a matter of time before companies started to rehire people anyway (i.e. – all those tax cuts finally kicked in). When confronted with this type of argument I’ve usually found that the answer lies somewhere in the middle.
But personally I do believe that it helped and that it should have been bigger. The Righty-Tighties just refuse to do anything to help the economy so Obama cannot take credit. Which means they want Americans to suffer so they can achieve a political end.
Tommy Maddox
February 21st, 2012
12:38 pm
Hey Fred:
How’s about EVERYBODY paying some income taxes? And maybe then those who don’t will get some skin in the game rather than enjoying something for nothing?
Fly-on-the-Wall
February 21st, 2012
12:38 pm
Fred,
I love your 12:33 comment. It hits home on how the Republicans think, or in this case they don’t think.
Steve - USA (I support "None Of The Above")
February 21st, 2012
12:40 pm
Kaycee,
Some answered “No Opinion” but some were “Did Not Answer”. The “Did Not Answer” group are not shown. That is why the totals are short..
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2012
12:40 pm
“Bitches be crazy y’all!”
Pardon me Peadawg,
but that’s what happens when sons of bitches
try and decide what’s best for women.
Sleep with one eye open son.
Sleep with one eye open.
Bruno
February 21st, 2012
12:41 pm
you have a long history of coming on the blog and waving around your academic credentials to try to intimidate others and impress on everybody just how smart you are compared to the rest of those posting here.
For the record, Jay, while I’m proud of my undergrad college, I’ve never used my attendance there as a substitute for making a valid argument ( = Appeal to Authority). Which is essentially what you are doing today by stating that “in a poll conducted by a respected institution with a conservative reputation, a cross section of the nation’s most respected economists…..blah, blah, blah.” Ditto for all of your columns regarding AGW.
As to your other point, Bruno, please
It’s your column, Jay, so obviously you get to choose what to write. I’m just letting you know that all of the unnecessary insults are diluting the quality of your blog audience. But, have it any way you want……..just please spare us all of the hand-wringing about the political animosity that has developed in our country. You’re no better than the right wing pundits mentioned above.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 21st, 2012
12:41 pm
T. Maddox — “How’s about EVERYBODY paying some income taxes? And maybe then those who don’t will get some skin in the game rather than enjoying something for nothing?”
I presume you’d like to extend this notion to corporations as well? Particularly those who pay little or nothing each year in taxes? After all, without “skin in the game,” they’re just “enjoying something for nothing,” now, aren’t they?
Brosephus
February 21st, 2012
12:42 pm
How’s about EVERYBODY paying some income taxes? And maybe then those who don’t will get some skin in the game rather than enjoying something for nothing?
Are you referring to those millionaires who’s net income tax liability is zero because of deductions and credits they can take advantage of? There’s only a few thousand of them, I think. Or are you referring to the conservative’s goto whipping post, the unwed baby momma with 30 kids on welfare driving the cadillac shopping at publix with the EBT card?
Joe Hussein Mama
February 21st, 2012
12:42 pm
Bruno — “all of the unnecessary insults”
Pot, kettle, black.
Tommy Maddox
February 21st, 2012
12:43 pm
Sure Joe.
Tommy Maddox
February 21st, 2012
12:45 pm
Bro – I’m speaking of those who pay nothing at all – not those who pay something i.e. capital gains etc.
You know – the other 50%?
Curious Observer
February 21st, 2012
12:45 pm
Does corporate social responsibility even exist anymore?
At one time, many corporations saw themselves as having an obligation to be good corporate citizens in the communities in which they operate. They donated to deserving social causes and otherwise supported their communities. Then, in the middle of the last century, along came the right-wing economist Milton Friedman and his Chicago School of Economics, declaring that a corporation’s only duty was to create wealth for its owners. Practically overnight, corporations eschewed the concept of social responsibility and became users of society, rather than supporters of it, with a few notable exceptions. You can find many advocates of the Friedman school right here on this blog. Their forerunners were people like Marie Antoinette and her “let them eat cake” philosophy as a response to “the people have no bread.”
godless heathen©
February 21st, 2012
12:46 pm
Fred,
I guess you’ve had your fun with the Hong Cong thing, but the fact is that Hong Kong is economically separate from China and is known for capitalism without government interference, unlike China.
ragnar danneskjold
February 21st, 2012
12:48 pm
Dear Fred @ 12:29, thanks for your reasoned and thoughtful response, the usual I anticipate from leftists.
Bruno
February 21st, 2012
12:49 pm
I think everyone EXCEPT the Republicans are concerned about the massive debt. The REST of us think we should cut spending and raise taxes, but the republicans refuse to entertain this idea.
Fred–In case you missed it, it is the Dems who keep trying to spend more money. The Republicans are the only ones who think we’ve spent too much already. As for raising taxes, while the Dems have scored plenty of cheap political points with the OWS rhetoric, the fact remains that they extended the Bush tax cuts and have fought to extend the payroll tax reduction. The worst of both worlds: more spending, less taxes. But who cares as long as the polling numbers are good, right??
JamVet - My god man, protect the billionaires!
February 21st, 2012
12:49 pm
How’s about EVERYBODY paying some income taxes?
No kidding.
And it is always heartwarming to see that you neo-cons are always targeting the most outrageous mooches. Oh wait, that’s right. The following people don’t even exist in the GOP’s parallel reality!
485,000 households in the United States make somewhere between $100,000 and and $500,000 and pay NO federal income tax.
Another 18,000 make more than $1 million and pay ZERO in federal income tax in any given year.
kaycee
February 21st, 2012
12:52 pm
Steve-USA
I’m rather anal about data. Discrepancies like that make me break out in hives. Where did you find this out? Did you go to the actual study?
Tommy Maddox
February 21st, 2012
12:52 pm
Do they PAY cap gains tax?
Brosephus
February 21st, 2012
12:53 pm
I’m speaking of those who pay nothing at all – not those who pay something i.e. capital gains etc.
There are millionaires who are in that much maligned group of 47%-50% of people who pay no federal income taxes.
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/09/buffett-rule-rorschach-7-000-millionaires-paid-no-income-taxes-in-2011/245469/
To understand why, consider the 76 million people who don’t legally owe individual income taxes in 2011 (please, please note: does not include payroll, excise, state and local taxes). The vast majority of this group was poor. They didn’t owe individual income taxes because they didn’t owe a lot of money to start, and various exemptions, like the earned income tax credit, wiped out the rest.
But among families making more than $100,000, there were also half a million tax units — enough to replace the population of Tucson, Arizona — that also paid no income tax. Even more surprising, 7,000 millionaires also paid no individual income tax.
Based on not paying federal income taxes = not having skin in the game, there are quite a few who make a pretty good living without having any skin in the game. To attempt to shift your original point to include capital gains without giving the same credit to other payroll taxes that are paid on labor wages shows that your intent is to skew the argument to disparage the poor.
Bruno
February 21st, 2012
12:54 pm
485,000 households in the United States make somewhere between $100,000 and and $500,000 and pay NO federal income tax.
Another 18,000 make more than $1 million and pay ZERO in federal income tax in any given year.
Out of curiosity, AmVet, what have the Dems done to fix these obvious inequities in our tax system??
Steve - USA (I support "None Of The Above")
February 21st, 2012
12:55 pm
kaycee,
Yes. Jay always links the data he uses. Look for the blue font and click on it to see the detail.
I think I am right about the “Did Not Answer” but I have been wrong many times in the past.
Joe Hussein Mama
February 21st, 2012
12:56 pm
T. Maddox — “Sure Joe.”
Then how about adjusting your language to make that more clear, please? The way you’re saying it, you make it sound like you’re only upset at people, not at people *and* at corporate entities.
Mr_B
February 21st, 2012
12:56 pm
Bruno, in Jay’s defense: “substitute for making a valid argument ( = Appeal to Authority).” There is nothing dishonest or illogical in an appeal to authority, so long as the authority is competent in the subject at hand. Jay seems to have established the credibility of the sources, and that credibility is legitimately subject to question, if you can do so.
As for the “insult” part of the post, I’d sure be isulted if anybody called me “Rush”.
Adam
February 21st, 2012
12:56 pm
Sometimes coming here is all I need for a good laugh, especially when anything good is said about an Obama policy. How many posts have already popped up that said “Oh look he’s bashing Republicans again! Why isn’t he bashing Democrats? (whine)”?
Bruno
February 21st, 2012
12:56 pm
Gotta run, but here’s a little ditty for Mitt’s Kids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86-XrU8sh60
I’ve heard that the Romney Family Crest is a large boot stepping all over the little people.
Catch you guys later……
Fred ™
February 21st, 2012
12:57 pm
Tommy Maddox
February 21st, 2012
12:38 pm
Hey Fred:
How’s about EVERYBODY paying some income taxes? And maybe then those who don’t will get some skin in the game rather than enjoying something for nothing?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
hey Tommy give me a NAME of someone who doesn’t pay taxes and I’ll go investigate them, kick their ass if need be.
In the meantime, how about you pop your head out, do some thinking for yourself, and quit spouting talk radio show bumper sticker lies?
Mr. Golf
February 21st, 2012
12:58 pm
Yea, the stimulus was great! I got a free golf cart in 2009 that qualified as a low speed electric vehicle and got a tax credit for the entire amount. Last year I donated it to a charity and writing it off. Yep, that stimulus was very sound policy.
JamVet - My god man, protect the billionaires!
February 21st, 2012
12:58 pm
Out of curiosity, AmVet, what have the Dems done to fix these obvious inequities in our tax system??
The EXACT same thing as the Republicans.
Nothing.
But at least the rank and file Democrat hasn’t been programmed to believe that this perversion is the natural and proper evolution of American capitalism.
It is not.
We live in a modern day plutocracy and oligarchy.
Where corporations are the new sovereigns and we the people are their slaves.
And cowards who had the chance to protect us sold us out and disregarded the sage advice of brilliant men from Jefferson to Eisenhower.
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door. That’s the only difference. ~Ralph Nader
Adam
February 21st, 2012
12:59 pm
Even better how about the “Jay, why aren’t you talking about _____?”
Fred ™
February 21st, 2012
1:01 pm
godless heathen©
February 21st, 2012
12:46 pm
Fred,
I guess you’ve had your fun with the Hong Cong thing, but the fact is that Hong Kong is economically separate from China and is known for capitalism without government interference, unlike China.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Actually heathen, no it’s not. You should study it closer. Hong Kong gives to mainland china what mainland china tells them too. They have a modicum of autonomy simply because they provide such a large portion of the Chinese income stream.
WaitAMinute
February 21st, 2012
1:01 pm
It’s time the right-wingers took their ball and went home.
kaycee
February 21st, 2012
1:02 pm
Streve-USA,
Thanks. I can breathe again.
Fred ™
February 21st, 2012
1:02 pm
ragnar danneskjold
February 21st, 2012
12:48 pm
Dear Fred @ 12:29, thanks for your reasoned and thoughtful response, the usual I anticipate from leftists.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
As I expect a hard core fanatical right winger to call ANYONE (even a fellow republican) who isn’t as nutcase fanatically unthinking a “leftist.”
It’s all you can do holler socialism, leftist and quote talk show propaganda. I would be ashamed if that is the best i could offer in an argument.
Bruno
February 21st, 2012
1:04 pm
There is nothing dishonest or illogical in an appeal to authority, so long as the authority is competent in the subject at hand.
In terms of deductive logic, Mr B, Appeal to Authority most certainly is a logical fallacy. I’m sure Joe Mama can tell you all about it. In the “real” world, i.e. the world if inductive logic, it can provide a convincing argument, but is still a far cry from “proving” something. In other words, does it really matter how many people believe the Earth is flat or round??
Recon 0311 2533
February 21st, 2012
1:06 pm
10% pay 70% of the federal government income tax revenue. Almost 50% pay no income tax and half of those actually get tax dollars back from the government even though they pay no income tax. The real scary statistic is that now 70% of the population receive some form of financial assistance from the government. Pay the fair share? The country is on the right course?
Jefferson
February 21st, 2012
1:06 pm
Talk about poor envey…
godless heathen©
February 21st, 2012
1:13 pm
Fred,
Are you saying that Hong Kong operates under the same economic system as China? If you are, then you are the stupid one.
Fred ™
February 21st, 2012
1:14 pm
Bruno
February 21st, 2012
12:49 pm
I think everyone EXCEPT the Republicans are concerned about the massive debt. The REST of us think we should cut spending and raise taxes, but the republicans refuse to entertain this idea.
Fred–In case you missed it, it is the Dems who keep trying to spend more money. The Republicans are the only ones who think we’ve spent too much already. As for raising taxes, while the Dems have scored plenty of cheap political points with the OWS rhetoric, the fact remains that they extended the Bush tax cuts and have fought to extend the payroll tax reduction. The worst of both worlds: more spending, less taxes. But who cares as long as the polling numbers are good, right??
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
Yeah acually I HAVE missed it. I DIDN’T miss that the Republicans rejected a budget bill that called for deeper spending cuts than they called for except it also called for raising taxes.
I saw President Obama extend the Bush tax cuts rather than cut of money to the massive number of unemployeed. i guess if you consider blackmail a victory then you CAN lie and say he “did it.”
But then unlike you who is a hard core right wing fanatic with ulterior motives, I am just an American, just a guy. Unlike you, I don’t want to see the Country go into the toilet rather than “the other guy” get “the credit.” To me, both repubslicans AND democrats are “the other guy.’ i have to team but Team America. I have no agenda but the common good of AMERICA. You on the otherhand are more concerned with tearing down the Democrats than with fixing the Country. You are a divider, I am a uniter. I guess given that basic fact, we will NEVER see eye to eye. I have clarity of thought, mind and purity of purpose. I strive for the good of the Country, for ALL OF US. You and your ilk strive to “best the democrats” no matter the cost to the Country. personally I find you and you ilk, to be traitors. your agenda of tossing out Obama is more important than the Country. I feel the same way about the fanatical left wingers, but we aren’t talking about them right now. THEY aren’t the obstructionists, you are.
Your whole “my dad can beat up your wimpy socialist dad’ third grade rhetoric is old and tired. Grow up. Get your party to grow up. Act like adults and THEN see if the Democrats do the same. If they don’t, you have a leg to stand on. Right now you have nothing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5QGkOGZubQ&list=PL7B626D544F671E2C&index=12&feature=plpp_video
Scooter
February 21st, 2012
1:14 pm
So are all the participants professors? What percentage of them have worked for government within the last 12 years? And finally, how many jobs have they created? The people want jobs, not some academic economists fiddling with models.
Joseph
February 21st, 2012
1:16 pm
Do you realize how stupid this tripe is? Jay folks have a hellva lot more intelligence than you give them credit for. The internet is a wonderful tool and there’s dozens of articles that say the complete opposite of what you theory is.
Do you remember this Jay? If we pass the stimulus unemployment won’t go above 8% and be down to 6% by 2012. That was the first lie about it.
How about this? We will have shovel ready jobs out the ying yang… Even Obama admitted this didn’t happen.
And this! How about the 2 million Americans that would be lifted from poverty. Over six more million have since fallen into poverty since Obama assumed the Presidency…
You can trot out liberal economist after liberal economist Jay but the simple fact that Obama and the dems wasted 800+ billion dollars in tax money cannot be glossed over as being wildly successful….
Joe Hussein Mama
February 21st, 2012
1:16 pm
Bruno — “I’m sure Joe Mama can tell you all about it.”
I certainly can. However, I take issue with your characterization of inductive logic as being somehow emblematic of or representative of ‘the real world.’
Joseph
February 21st, 2012
1:17 pm
By the way Jay was ordered to write this tripe in response to this…..
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2012/02/17/the-five-biggest-failures-from-president-obamas-stimulus-law
Talking Head
February 21st, 2012
1:17 pm
Obamanomics: If you are successful, then you pay your ‘fair share’ for everyone. Everyone else, live off of the successful.
JohnnyReb
February 21st, 2012
1:17 pm
I see the debate has come around to who pays Federal Income Taxes. This is from Kipplinger for 2009 tax year. AGI means Adjusted Gross Income. If you and the misses bring in $343,927 or more AGI, you are a 1% er.
Income Category 2009AGI % of All Income % Taxes Paid
Top 1% >$343,927 17% 37%
Top 5% >$154,643 32% 59%
Top 10% >$112,124 43% 70%
Top 25% >$66,193 66% 87%
Top 50% >$32,396 87% 98%
Bottom 50% <$32,396 13% 2%
Geo
February 21st, 2012
1:18 pm
Better run Fred – your check’s in the mail.
Fred ™
February 21st, 2012
1:18 pm
Mr. Golf
February 21st, 2012
12:58 pm
Yea, the stimulus was great! I got a free golf cart in 2009 that qualified as a low speed electric vehicle and got a tax credit for the entire amount. Last year I donated it to a charity and writing it off. Yep, that stimulus was very sound policy.
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Looks like it worked. you helped keep some golf cart maker employed as well as the sales staff where you bought it and then when you were finished and decided at 1 year you needed a new one, a charity benefited. Looks like everyone won.
Joseph
February 21st, 2012
1:19 pm
Remember Obama promised there would be 1 million electric cars on the road by 2015??? LOL… I don’t see that happening….
JohnnyReb
February 21st, 2012
1:19 pm
Well, the blog won’t post a graphic and it does not do so well with spaces either. Sorry, but you can figure it out. Even the Left here are “smart.”
Towncrier
February 21st, 2012
1:20 pm
“Of course, I understand that such things must be weighed against the fact that Rush and Sean have very different opinions.”
I am afraid the opinions of Rush, Sean or these “top 40 economists” matter little. The FACTS are that 1) the protracted unemployment rate is the longest we have seen since the Great Depression 2) we are some 15 trillion dollars (and rising) in debt and 3) hardly anyone – certainly no one in the Obama camp – is treating this as a national crisis requiring some radical therapy. Save your ditties for Friday, Jay.
Fred ™
February 21st, 2012
1:22 pm
godless heathen©
February 21st, 2012
1:13 pm
Fred,
Are you saying that Hong Kong operates under the same economic system as China? If you are, then you are the stupid one.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Nope, I’m not saying that at all. Please point out, without rearranging words, what I wrote that says that. I’ll see then what I can do to do a better job of communicating.
Steve - USA (I support "None Of The Above")
February 21st, 2012
1:22 pm
Joseph,
That was written by the head of the RNC. That is as worthless as some of the Liberal blog links around here.
Adam
February 21st, 2012
1:23 pm
JohnnyReb: It is perfectly fine to post a LINK to a graphic.
Adam
February 21st, 2012
1:25 pm
So basically the stimulus helped. In other words, it wasn’t a “failure”
Generation$crewed
February 21st, 2012
1:26 pm
Fred ™
February 21st, 2012
1:02 pm
“It’s all you can do holler socialism, leftist and quote talk show propaganda. I would be ashamed if that is the best i could offer in an argument.”
Nah you wouldn’t do that you would simply call them baptist, eventhough they are Episcopalian, and have noted nothing of religion but you assummed anyway. You are also good at putting words in their mouth, or simply distorting what was written to conform to your view of that person and what they represent or believe. Not what the person actually represents or believes.
a much classier style of debate you choose to employ.
Maybe just maybe, if you would quit making up your mind about everyone before you have a dialog with them you would not be so tempted to place everyone into groups in your head so you don’t have to think too much.
Towncrier
February 21st, 2012
1:27 pm
“I think everyone EXCEPT the Republicans are concerned about the massive debt. The REST of us think we should cut spending and raise taxes, but the republicans refuse to entertain this idea.”
The Republicans are adverse to tax increases and the Democrats (if the truth be known) are adverse to spending cuts. The Republicans want to reform the tax code, which apparently the Democrats are loathe to do. Raising the taxes on millionaires only will do next to nothing to solve the debt problem – it would be a drop in the proverbial bucket. Taxes have to be raised on the middle class as well to make some difference. Spending is the bigger cause of our problems by far. Wars and entitlement programs escalating out of control are the biggest culprits.
Corey
February 21st, 2012
1:28 pm
The biggest single slice of the stimulus was tax cuts(25%), followed by medicaid and aid to states. (aid that Republican law makers derided in front of the national press but gladly appeared in front of the local press holding a big check while touting a project in their district) I thought Republicans liked tax cuts? Silly me, tax cuts for “job creators.” Do you Republican voters ever see a glimmer of the sheer hypocrisy emanating form GOP?
Fred ™
February 21st, 2012
1:28 pm
Geo
February 21st, 2012
1:18 pm
Better run Fred – your check’s in the mail.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
My check doesn’t come in the mail loser. It get deposited in three checking accounts, a savings accounts and two retirement funds at the 1st of every month. Near as I can figure by Johnny Reb’s numbers up there, I miss being a 1 percenter by just over 100,000 bucks and I think I must be a 2percenter.
Is that all you had? Did you think you were clever? Funny? Did you think you somehow made a point?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5RtlpXsl8k&feature=BFa&list=PL7B626D544F671E2C&lf=plpp_video
Jefferson
February 21st, 2012
1:28 pm
All this talk and the GOP has yet to mount a serious threat to the president’s reelection, I guess they are not as smart as they think they are.
HDB
February 21st, 2012
1:28 pm
Related point…….http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/is-this-the-end-of-market-democracy/?hp
Towncrier
February 21st, 2012
1:29 pm
“So basically the stimulus helped. In other words, it wasn’t a “failure”
Even if that were true (which I am not willing to concede), it is like saying we bailed 3 buckets of water from our sinking ship.