What China has that the U.S. cannot match
Every American concerned about this country’s economic future should take the time to read a lengthy piece in Sunday’s New York Times explaining why Apple refuses to build or assemble its products here in the United States.
Taxes have nothing to do with it. Regulations have nothing to do with it. Both pale in significance to things like this:
An eight-hour drive from that glass factory is a complex, known informally as Foxconn City, where the iPhone is assembled. To Apple executives, Foxconn City was further evidence that China could deliver workers — and diligence — that outpaced their American counterparts.
That’s because nothing like Foxconn City exists in the United States.
The facility has 230,000 employees, many working six days a week, often spending up to 12 hours a day at the plant. Over a quarter of Foxconn’s work force lives in company barracks and many workers earn less than $17 a day. When one Apple executive arrived during a shift change, his car was stuck in a river of employees streaming past. “The scale is unimaginable,” he said.
Foxconn employs nearly 300 guards to direct foot traffic so workers are not crushed in doorway bottlenecks. The facility’s central kitchen cooks an average of three tons of pork and 13 tons of rice a day. While factories are spotless, the air inside nearby teahouses is hazy with the smoke and stench of cigarettes.
Foxconn Technology has dozens of facilities in Asia and Eastern Europe, and in Mexico and Brazil, and it assembles an estimated 40 percent of the world’s consumer electronics for customers like Amazon, Dell, Hewlett-Packard, Motorola, Nintendo, Nokia, Samsung and Sony.
“They could hire 3,000 people overnight,” said Jennifer Rigoni, who was Apple’s worldwide supply demand manager until 2010, but declined to discuss specifics of her work. “What U.S. plant can find 3,000 people overnight and convince them to live in dorms?”
Unless Americans are willing to live in dorms where their lives are completely controlled by their employers, and do so for less than $17 a day, they cannot compete for the kind of assembly-line jobs that many of our fathers and grandfathers performed. Apple, which last year generated $400,000 in profit, not revenue, per employee, employs just 43,000 people here in the United States, while its outsourcing contractors overseas employ some 700,000.
Focusing on taxation and regulation as the cause of our challenges may be politically and ideologically convenient, but it’s a distraction. As long as that’s the focus of our debate, we aren’t addressing the true problems that we face.
In fact, the situation reminds me of the old story about the drunk who has lost his car keys and is searching for them under a street light.
“Well, where did you lose them?” somebody asks.
“Somewhere over there,” the drunk says, pointing out into the inky darkness.
“Then why are you looking for them over here, under the street light?”
“Becaush the light’s better.”
– Jay Bookman
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280 comments Add your comment
n
January 23rd, 2012
10:25 am
China’s demographics are changing quickly. The state allows only one child per couple, which has been the rule for many years, to limit overpopulation. These hoards of single children are being raised to be much like spoiled American and European children, who believe their birthright is to be coddled and indulged, and who are being sent to the best schools in China and around the world to become physicists, biologists, computer scientists, environmental engineers, climatologists, etc.
It won’t be long until the current generation of desperate workers willing to live in dormitories like indentured slaves ages to the point they can no longer be productive as beehive workers, and there will be nobody willing to replace them. Like Americans, this generation of Chinese feel they are too good for manual labor. The demographic transition yields a huge number of old folks to be supported by a much lower number of young folks–just like the U.S. and Europe. Countries now with runaway population growth and a young workforce (with no jobs and no direction) are mostly in the Middle East and Africa.
363 more days
January 23rd, 2012
10:25 am
I think Sooth has a fetish with someone’s hair, could it be because he or she has none?
Bruno
January 23rd, 2012
10:25 am
Yeah right
I’m not the one saying everyone who gets pregnant should be forced to carry the child to term or die trying. I’m also not the one saying we are a “Christian Nation” and that it’s not ok to discriminate against Christians, but it is totally ok to do the same against Muslims, and that Muslims should not be allowed to build mosques anywhere, etc etc.
And neither am I. I support legal abortion and have forcefully taken up the banner for religion freedom for ALL people here on the blog many times. Scroll back to any of Jay’s “mosque building” columns last year and you’ll see mean old conservative Bruno giving the Christian religious bigots all the hell they deserved.
It’s tempting, but please don’t let the actions of the vocal extremists within the conservative movement prejudice you against ALL conservatives.
Normal
January 23rd, 2012
10:27 am
I guess Marxism or Communism is the answer for you then Jay? You already have a President on the same page…….
http://justcapshunz.icanhascheezburger.com/2012/01/19/funny-captions-o-rly/
Steve - USA (I support "None Of The Above")
January 23rd, 2012
10:27 am
(ir) – Adam – I meant, what channel is it going to be aired on? Who is going to pay the people to give the lectures and produce the shows? And then who is going to pay for that channel to continue airing it after their advertisers stop paying for that half-hour because no one is watching?
How about Apple, they seem to have plenty of cash.
Paul
January 23rd, 2012
10:28 am
Funny how the opposing responses all go to issues of trade and China’s conditions
and none of them address the Republican mantra of ‘we need to lower taxes and get rid of regulations to make business competitive.”
Normal
January 23rd, 2012
10:29 am
http://justcapshunz.icanhascheezburger.com/2012/01/18/funny-captions-i-almost-killed-my-family-this-morning-making-pancakes/
(ir)Rational
January 23rd, 2012
10:30 am
I’ll respond when I get back, I just had someone walk in for a meeting.
cosby
January 23rd, 2012
10:30 am
Tell the Unions…Tell congress and their minimum waqe, tell congress regarding import export rules and regulations – bet, Harry, Nancy, Bohener, McConnell, Obama are at a total loss whhen it comes to that…what happens when you have a bunch of idiots worring about re-election rather than protecting the country….but lets provide health care, housing, food (food stamps), day care,free heat and cool for the free housing, free phones, free TV…damn why work!!!
Bruno
January 23rd, 2012
10:33 am
Bruno Bruno Bruno … Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands, Canada, Austria, Switzerland, Australia all have systems like that described above, and all have comparable and in Norway’s case even superior per capita GDP to the USA.
I should have said “with rare exception” in the case of Norway. Got a little sloppy there, and figured you would jump on that. Here’s a chart of per capita income by country. If you notice, other than a few, much smaller countries, the US is kicking butt, especially in comparison to all the European socialist countries which you guys seem to aspire to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita
US–$48,417 per person in 2010, Germany $37,395 and France $35,048.
So tell me again, why isn’t this socialism thing working out better??
JamVet
January 23rd, 2012
10:33 am
Brother, B, first thanks for your and PB’s hospitality and generosity. Please do thank her profusely, for me, OK? (She is everything you said she was. Yow. LOL!)
I had one helluva time with you two and the various hot little “wigglers” who wanted to shake their tail feathers at and with me! What can I say? I’ve still got it, buddy!
And I was very impressed with both bands. And I think you know me well enough to know that I would not say that gratuitously. Even though I have very high standards for my rock and roll, those two bands were fantastic and frankly, far more that I expected. Especially the stunning note for note covers of those Dark Side of the Moon songs by Deep Blue Sun.
And the Grapes sure got the crowd going with that jump up, very high energy, dance sound of theirs. And in retrospect, I am certain that I have never seen a band with three drummers.
It was crazy good.
Again, thanks and I look forward to returning the favor in the future…
carlosgvv
January 23rd, 2012
10:36 am
(ir)Rational
It is the duty of every American citizen to be patriotic. If you believe that Big Business moguls should get a free pass on this, then you are truly the simple tool they and the Republicans love.
Matti
January 23rd, 2012
10:36 am
I never did worship at the Church of Steve Jobs, and never understood those who did. Don’t have an i-anything, and I’m not missing a darn thing. What a sad commentary on our world!
TaxPayer
January 23rd, 2012
10:37 am
and none of them address the Republican mantra of ‘we need to lower taxes and get rid of regulations to make business competitive.”
It is not as though they are able to support that claim either. It just sounds good to their audience so they toss it out there.
Ivan Cohen
January 23rd, 2012
10:39 am
The harbor at Savannah will be deepened to handle larger ships bringing imports from China. Ofcourse this is happening right at Georgia Ports Authority. When trucks travel over the roads with containers attached to them destined for American stores, they have Chinese made products. Let’s not forget the old adage of companies who outsourced their operations overseas for cheap labor and no unions to contend with. Unless the utilities and the grocery stores are willing to lower their prices, one can forget about finding a person in America who is going to work for less than $17.00 a day. It is no secret that some in the hospitality profession have to work two jobs just to put food on the table.
stands for decibels
January 23rd, 2012
10:39 am
Government just outlawed tax refund loans
A moment of silence, please, for yet another
scamsource of revenue closed off to the skimmer-class..
.
.
That should do it.
(of course, contrary to what Jm would have you believe, it’s not going away until next year.
Good riddance to bad rubbish.)
/drive-by
USinUK
January 23rd, 2012
10:40 am
“Here’s a chart of per capita income by country. If you notice, other than a few, much smaller countries, the US is kicking butt, especially in comparison to all the European socialist countries which you guys seem to aspire to”
given that most German households don’t have ANY debt (outside of a mortgage), their smaller income goes a lot farther – plus, they all get 6 weeks vacation that they can actually USE without penalty (and that doesn’t include sick days) – plus, they have good healthcare that won’t make you declare bankruptcy if you have cancer or another catastrophic illness …
so, tell me who has the better lifestyle.
Joe Hussein Mama
January 23rd, 2012
10:40 am
Bruno — “the US is kicking butt . . . US–$48,417 per person in 2010, Germany $37,395 and France $35,048. So tell me again, why isn’t this socialism thing working out better??”
Americans get a lot less social services than Germans and French do, so we have to make more scratch than them in order to enjoy the same standard of living.
I appreciate your figures, Bruno, but I don’t think they’ve accounted for the more generous and widespread benefits those dirty furriners enjoy. Comparing raw income doesn’t tell the whole story.
Steve - USA (I support "None Of The Above")
January 23rd, 2012
10:41 am
Taxpayer – It is not as though they are able to support that claim either. It just sounds good to their audience so they toss it out there.
And how is the mantra of “living wage” and “fairness” going to address the issues in China addressed in Jay’s article?
Each side has their audience drinking the Kool-Aid, just different flavors.
Welcome to the Occupation
January 23rd, 2012
10:42 am
Let it be noted for the record that our con friends have, once again, taken a pass on defending their ridiculous claims that 1) Barack Obama is a Marxist (a daily source of humorous relief here), 2) that any attempt to voice concern over the crisis in the world economic system represented by the collapse in wages brought on by the integration of the developing world into the global capitalist system, and 3) the idea that the United States can still boast of higher standards of living than other, esp. European countries that still have 20th C-style social programs and labor protections.
As usual, the silence of the cons is positively deafening on these points.
They got nothing.
USinUK
January 23rd, 2012
10:42 am
Normal – 10:29 – are they doing a remake of 9-5?? did you replace your family’s skinny-n-sweet with rat poison??
where’s Lily Tomlin when we need her!!
Bruno
January 23rd, 2012
10:45 am
Especially the stunning note for note covers of those Dark Side of the Moon songs by Deep Blue Sun.
Don’t know about you, buddy, but I had several mental orgasms during the Deep Blue Sun set.
Matti–Where were you on Saturday?? You missed an outrageous jam session.
I think the importance of the meeting was to see that we’re all not very far apart as people on this blog, whatever our political differences. For example, there seems to be a persistent rumor here among the Libs that cons can’t be fun people to hang around with. Maybe jam can clear that rumor up once and for all.
From the show:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_Yayz5o-l0
Steve - USA (I support "None Of The Above")
January 23rd, 2012
10:45 am
Welcome,
I can see how you wouldn’t support the Republicans but I fail to see your devotion to the Democrats. They are also puppets to the powers you claim to hate so much.
The “Yeah….but they are the lesser evil” really is not a solid foundation to stand on.
Granny Godzilla
January 23rd, 2012
10:45 am
Rand Paul detained by TSA in Nashville…..and he’s fussing
bman
January 23rd, 2012
10:48 am
iphones are not cheap. I recently got mine for $99 but had to sign up for 2 years. If you don’t get insurance on the phone ($15-mo) the replacement is $600 – should you break it…
TaxPayer
January 23rd, 2012
10:50 am
And how is the mantra of “living wage” and “fairness” going to address the issues in China addressed in Jay’s article?
I do believe my post inquired about the Republican mantra of lower taxes and fewer regulations. More specifically, I inquired about proof to support said Republican mantra and I see you offered none. Please, do not attempt to abuse my inquiry with your diversionary tactics. Simply offer up your topic without attempting to connect it with mine, kthks.
Welcome to the Occupation
January 23rd, 2012
10:50 am
Correction to my above post, I see now that Bruno has dug up some average income figures showing that the US comes in at about $10k a year lower than Germany.
A few points.
1) As I said, Germany is not a ’socialist’ country, but rather a capitalist system with a mixed social democratic model. Yet of course, just try introducing any of that country’s structural features here and watch the howls of outrage and cries of “socialism!!” that will be leveled by the rubes and their right-wing FOX News propaganda fellow travelers.
In Germany, no person is denied access to college for lack of money as education is fully state supported. No one risks bankruptcy from a single serious illness or hospital stay. Mass transit and other social programs are vastly better supported. And on and on.
So yeah, I’d say a mere $10k different in the AVERAGE income does not really give you the whole picture.
Plus, those average figures will additionally become increasingly unreliable as the wealth DIFFERENTIAL in this country explodes to banana republic levels.
Welcome to the Occupation
January 23rd, 2012
10:52 am
Correction, Bruno’s figures show the US income on average comes in at about $10k HIGHER than Germany, not lower.
Dammit can’t we get an edit function on this blog!
getalife
January 23rd, 2012
10:53 am
JamVet,
Did Bruno bribe you to cross over to the dark side?
Just kidding, sounds like you had fun and if I was in town I could show you how to pick up those beautiful Atlanta women
Mary Elizabeth
January 23rd, 2012
10:54 am
stands for decibels, 8:24 am
“Obviously, the only answer is universal, worldwide governance that gives a good crap about human rights, including workers’ rights.”
=================================
“On 10 December, Human Rights Day, the Secretary-General (of the U.N.) launched a year-long campaign to lead up to the 60th birthday of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) on Human Rights Day 2008. The UDHR was the first international recognition that all human beings have fundamental rights and freedoms and it continues to be a living and relevant document today.”
http://www.erooseveltudhr.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=section&id=8&Itemid=30
This document was established by Eleanor Roosevelt. It was based upon the tenets of Universal Human Rights of which her husband, Franklin, wrote in his last Inaugural Address. In that address, FDR enumerated upon a “2nd Bill of Rights for all Americans,” of which I am a proponent.
===============================================
From the body of FDR’s 4th Inaugural Address:
“We have learned that we cannot live alone, at peace; that our own well-being is dependent on the well-being of other nations far away. We have learned that we must live as men, not as ostriches, nor as dogs in the manger. We have learned to be citizens of the world, members of the human community.”
And from FDR’s 2nd Bill of Rights (or Economic Bill of Rights as it is called by some), from which Eleanor Roosevelt modeled her UN plan of worldwide Human Rights:
“In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all regardless of station, race, or creed.
Among these are:
The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the Nation;
The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
The right of every family to a decent home;
The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;
The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;
The right to a good education
====================================
Bruno
January 23rd, 2012
10:55 am
so, tell me who has the better lifestyle.
I appreciate your figures, Bruno, but I don’t think they’ve accounted for the more generous and widespread benefits those dirty furriners enjoy. Comparing raw income doesn’t tell the whole story.
Of course I’m not telling the whole story, Joe and USinUK. No possible way to score some cheap political points by doing that. But, at least I realize it and freely admit it. An honest liar, if you will.
Are any of you here willing to admit the same?? We all have only a small corner on the Truth market, because, ultimately, truth is personal. I’m sure my experiences growing up in poverty have strongly shaped my version of “truth”. All I can do is throw it out there so that y’all might see things from another perspective.
YOUR party SUCKS! But MINE is GRRRRRREAT! (formerly That Black Guy)
January 23rd, 2012
10:56 am
Mick
January 23rd, 2012
8:25 am
paul
Another day of simplistic false assumptions by some truly tunnel visioned, low information, opinionators. They’d rather have an enemy to blame than find solutions to the issues…
____________________________________________________________________________
And yet, Mick offers NO solutions.
____________________________________________________________________________
Paul
January 23rd, 2012
8:19 am
putting in place laws and regulations regarding workplace safety, work conditions, maximum hours worked, minimum pay and overtime, etc. or – Paul, don’t we ALREADY have these things in place?
- getting rid of all regulations regarding the same, eliminating OSHA, getting rid of all wage, workplace health and safety laws and regulations? – Paul, please cite, link, identify those on the right who are proposing to get rid of ALL regulations regarding the same, ELIMINATING OSHA, GETTING RID OF ALL wage, workplace health and safety laws and regulations.
It’s raining outside, so we’ll wait…
Stevie Ray
January 23rd, 2012
10:56 am
JAY,
I’ve been to several of these “gulag” styled facilities, mostly in Thailand and Indonesia. Fact is that most of workers are females between ages of 18 and 22. They come from all over and since they spend no money for food, housing et al, they return after average 3 year contract back to say…Sumatra, and are in the top 10% or so of wealth. At least in these countries, the workers love these positions and seem very happy.
Since the differential between union labor (including all the extortion items including post retirement and job banks if negotiated) and what they pay now would likely completely eliminate any 400K margin per employee should apple assume these jobs directly or on contracted basis in US. Will consumers line up at Apple Stores if the cost of an IPaD doubled?
JamVet
January 23rd, 2012
10:58 am
B, the funniest part of it was how when PB wanted to go down front, both of us were literally unable to get out of our seats!
Thanks goodness we both rallied.
I really don’t think it is too over the top to say it is truly extraordinary how we’ve used music to bridge our “virtual’ differences. I’ve always felt that it was a sacrament to be shared, and that we’ve now done so, is to me, something quite remarkable.
We will of course, still kick and scratch and shout about other topics here, but really, none of that matters nearly as much as friendship.
And JB, too bad, we didn’t have a chance to try and stroll down the street and say hi to you at some point. B and I talked about it, but…those damn kids and their LOUD rock music! The show didn’t end until sometime after midnight.
Maybe, next time…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbKAh3zJmH8
Bruno
January 23rd, 2012
10:58 am
Did Bruno bribe you to cross over to the dark side?
I did, stands, but he reneged the very next morning with his first scathing post against cons.
Matti
January 23rd, 2012
10:59 am
Bruno,
You’re right (on this). The most important lesson I’ve learned from politics is that a person’s political preference is NOT the prime indicator of whether he or she is a nice person, or fun to be around. There are wonderful people, arrogant jerks, and whacktoid nutcases on both sides of the political fence. Now, if you dig deeper and examine the reasons that a person prefers one side or the other, there you can sometimes find something dark or ugly. There are many different reasons people identify with one party or the other. Among the “conservatives” *I* know and love, the most common reason they are consistently Repub is that they’ve just always identified as such, are not paying attention, and don’t know *bleep*. Still, I break bread and pour wine with them gladly.
Welcome to the Occupation
January 23rd, 2012
10:59 am
Bruno: “Are any of you here willing to admit the same?? We all have only a small corner on the Truth market, because, ultimately, truth is personal”.
Not quite right, Bruno. To echo Hegel, truth is universal.
But it has to be lived by each individual in its particularity.
Jeff Pruett
January 23rd, 2012
11:01 am
I read this and was struck by the same passage. Then I read this article this morning;”More Lockouts as Companies Battle Unions” in NYT (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/23/business/lockouts-once-rare-put-workers-on-the-defensive.html?_r=1&ref=us).
China has no labor rights and we’re losing ours…
Joe Hussein Mama
January 23rd, 2012
11:03 am
Bruno — “Are any of you here willing to admit the same??”
What’s to admit? I didn’t misrepresent any statistics, as you did. My first post here today was to comment on *your* stats.
If you think I’ve got something to ‘admit,’ then I respectfully ask you to explain WTF you think it might be.
(ir)Rational
January 23rd, 2012
11:04 am
Road – I just took an alumni survey over the weekend. 50% of the questions were asking how well Tech had prepared me to work in foreign markets, with international teams and in diverse cultures.
Bosch – Yeah, my wife is already in school so we’re really taking a risk there. I’m just not sure that my current field (architecture) is going to recover enough to make me the money I want to make.
Bruno
January 23rd, 2012
11:05 am
B, the funniest part of it was how when PB wanted to go down front, both of us were literally unable to get out of our seats!
Not for kids, no doubt…….
And yet, Mick offers NO solutions.
TBG–He’s one more devotee of the Bookman School of Social Protest. No solutions necessary.
JamVet
January 23rd, 2012
11:08 am
getalife, LOL.
No, we talked a bit about the blog itself but no, politics!
And buddy, you would have been in hog heaven. Like shooting fish in a dancing barrel!
The crowd was fun. A bunch of very cool people.
And that these bands are long time Atlanta staples, really made me think about what an awesome musical legacy this town has built for itself.
Kick ass…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SByvzbYLn4&feature=related
(ir)Rational
January 23rd, 2012
11:09 am
carlos – I thought corporations couldn’t be citizens? Are we seeing a change in your thinking here? Or are you just using it for your argument now because it is convenient? As far as being a “tool” like you said, nah. I’m nobody’s tool. But hey, think what you like.
Steve USA – Yeah, but only if they wanted to pay for it. That’s my point. When people quit watching shows of that nature, the advertisers are going to pull their money from that time slot. Then who is going to pay for it?
Stevie Ray
January 23rd, 2012
11:09 am
Welcome,
Nice Hegel reference! Not one of my favorite philosophers but certainly made a difference…for Karl Marx as I recall and I think he fell into the category of “metaphysical” in my Bertand Russell history of philosphical nutjobs…
Too bad only half-truths exist on RED and BLUE…I like Russell again: “the most savage controversies are those in which neither side possesses adequate evidence” paraphrased…
Paul
January 23rd, 2012
11:10 am
Your Party
“Paul, don’t we ALREADY have these things in place?”
Sure do.
So how does that square with candidates’ pledges to repeal all regs put in place under Pres Obama.
And why stop there? Why not repeal those regs, too?
’cause regulations strangle business, don’tcha’ know?
Get rid of OSHA?
That was a question answering Jay’s article.
Or are you making the case that some regulations, some government intervention, some strangling of, and holding back, business is good?
If so, do you think conservative Republicans think so?
It’s rather out of the ‘eliminate Obamacare”
and give insurance companies the power to remove women from policies when they get breast cancer ’cause they didn’t reveal they were overweight, denying preexisting condition coverage, etc.
Union
January 23rd, 2012
11:12 am
funny thing.. apple makes a bigger profit than exxon.. but all you ever hear about is the big mean oil companies.. go figure..
Welcome to the Occupation
January 23rd, 2012
11:14 am
Steve – USA: “The “Yeah….but they are the lesser evil” really is not a solid foundation to stand on.”
I thought we’d already covered that recently, Steve.
I thought I’d made clear that I am the first to declare my hostility to the cynical blackmail of “but you’ve got to support Obama bec however lame he is we can’t have Michelle Bachmann, Rick Perry, [fill in the blank]!!!!”
By the way, as JKL2 brought to our attention last night, we might be about to enter an even more cynical stage of this process as Democratic party operatives and strategists are actually contemplating a formal admission that they will concede defeat and give up the ghost on trying to win the white working class, its historical base.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCUQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcampaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com%2F2011%2F11%2F27%2Fthe-future-of-the-obama-coalition%2F&ei=DocdT42iA-LRiALS2rDgCA&usg=AFQjCNFCj6vtPES4y7rWODRoMMN1FGHf0A&sig2=MHc0eN9py9_xQc9SB8FZVQ
0311/1811
January 23rd, 2012
11:16 am
I like the one about the two drunks walking up the railroad tracks one night.
One says: “This is the longest flight of steps I have ever been up !”
The other says: “It’s not the steps that bother me ……. it’s these low handrails !”
JamVet
January 23rd, 2012
11:17 am
B, I never knew this bit of trivia. What a gas!
Some of the profits from Dark Side of the Moon were invested in the production of Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
Philosophers?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1MgCV6uGuc
TaxPayer
January 23rd, 2012
11:17 am
Those job creators that the Republicans keep telling us about could probably do a lot of good with even a small tax cut at a $0.70/hour wage. They could probably even afford to throw in a matching contribution, up to six percent of compensation, to a 401k plan during good times.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
January 23rd, 2012
11:18 am
We all have only a small corner on the Truth market, because, ultimately, truth is personal. I’m sure my experiences growing up in poverty have strongly shaped my version of “truth”. All I can do is throw it out there so that y’all might see things from another perspective.
Perhaps the first step is to stop falsely claim it to be the “truth” and to use Ministry of Truth tactics to claim “truth” is relevant as “facts” with many verisions. Perceptions are relevant and may distort the interpretations of facts and truth in some oversimplified way distracting from the reality of a complicated interwoven interplay of a variety of “facts”, truth and perceptions.
Welcome to the Occupation
January 23rd, 2012
11:18 am
Union: “apple makes a bigger profit than exxon.. but all you ever hear about is the big mean oil companies.. go figure..”
By what measure?
Exxon actually has double the profits of Apple.
See here: http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/global500/2011/performers/companies/profits/
Paul
January 23rd, 2012
11:20 am
Your Party
I see now why you didn’t post under your usual name -
Bruno
January 23rd, 2012
11:25 am
Not quite right, Bruno. To echo Hegel, truth is universal.
Once again, Welcome, there is “truth” and there is “Truth”. Single, isolated facts, such as the above per capita income chart by country are most certainly “true” insofar as that they are verifiable pieces of info. But, as a few have pointed out here, the chart doesn’t–and can’t–tell the “whole story”. In order to tell the Truth, i.e. the “whole story”, you would have to assemble every possible “fact” that might inform on the situation. Which, if you think about it, is an impossible burden, since we would have to take into account the proverbial beating of every butterfly wing in Brazil in order to know the quantum state of every particle in the Universe simultaneously. Since we can’t do that, all we can do is be aware that we never have complete information. Honest people admit that.
What’s to admit? I didn’t misrepresent any statistics, as you did. My first post here today was to comment on *your* stats.
If you think I’ve got something to ‘admit,’ then I respectfully ask you to explain WTF you think it might be.
I tried to give you some hints before, Joe, by referencing Godel’s Incompleteness Theorem a while back, but your defensiveness prevented you from learning anything about what I had to say. You were too busy trying to make yourself look smart with all of your “tu quoque” BS. If you ever want to have a respectful discussion about epistemology, let me know.
getalife
January 23rd, 2012
11:29 am
The Soundgarden show at the Voodoofest was all ages. I noticed young girls would hold hands and walk through the crowd. My buddy turned to me and said, “Check out the jail bait trains.” We fell down laughing.
Then this old man with wild eyes came up and said he had hits of acid and mushrooms for sale. The same friend said to him, “I am a cop” and chased him through the crowd. He would walk up to kids smoking weed, tell them he was a cop and take their weed.
My friend is a con.
BADA BING
January 23rd, 2012
11:29 am
What does China have that we don’t? Easy. What you got there is slave labor. We decided against that, didn’t we?
Jay
January 23rd, 2012
11:29 am
Of course, Germany’s per capita numbers are dragged down considerably by their citizens in the former East Germany.
Sheets.
Bruno
January 23rd, 2012
11:32 am
Of course, Germany’s per capita numbers are dragged down considerably by their citizens in the former East Germany.
And why would that be?? It should be the other way around judging by you guys unmitigated love of socialism.
JamVet
January 23rd, 2012
11:36 am
“Check out the jail bait trains.”
Too funny.
Gotta love rock and roll chicks…
Joe Hussein Mama
January 23rd, 2012
11:39 am
Bruno — “I tried to give you some hints before, Joe, by referencing Godel’s Incompleteness Theorem a while back, but your defensiveness prevented you from learning anything about what I had to say.”
You needed neither to reference Godel nor to give me “hints,” as I’m already quite familiar with it. And what you term “defensiveness” was actually ‘derision’ stemming from the fact that you didn’t actually *apply* Godel to what was under discussion at the time, Bruno. Citing Godel is all well and good, but if you don’t bother *applying* it and elaborating on your argument, then your stance is specious and naive. A periodic table, by itself, proves no argument. It must be properly applied before it’s of use. Same holds true of Godel’s IT. The fact that Godel advanced his IT proves no argument, and it certainly didn’t support yours.
“You were too busy trying to make yourself look smart with all of your “tu quoque” BS.”
Ah, ever the cry of those who are busted in employing said logical fallacy. (laughing)
If someone engages in Tu Quoque, I’m going to call them on it. And you can cite Godel all you want in response, but unless and until you’re prepared to elaborate on your application of it to the discussion at hand, I’m afraid I can’t credit that *you* are trying to do anything other than make *yourself* ‘look smart.’
“If you ever want to have a respectful discussion about epistemology, let me know.”
If you ever want to drop your arrogance and presumption regarding our relative levels of education and knowledge regarding epistemiology, then I might consider it. Your arrogance is that of the person who fancies himself ever the teacher and forgets that one is also ever a *student.*
Welcome to the Occupation
January 23rd, 2012
11:40 am
Of course, Germany’s per capita numbers are dragged down considerably by their citizens in the former East Germany.
And then there’s that. Good point Jay.
St Simons- island off the coast of New Somalia
January 23rd, 2012
11:41 am
ya load sixteen phones, and whaddaya get
another day older and deeper in debt
st peter won’tcha call me, but i cain’t gooo..
i owe my soul to the company store..
yeah we been there, done that, got wise
They are in their industrial revolution heyday –
they’ll catch up, and they’ll figure it out, get pissed and do
something about it.
RB from Gwinnett
January 23rd, 2012
11:46 am
Jay – “Bruno Bruno Bruno … Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands, Canada, Austria, Switzerland, Australia all have systems like that described above, and all have comparable and in Norway’s case even superior per capita GDP to the USA.”
People with comparable jobs to mine in Sweden live in a 650 sq ft apartment, Jay. They pay 50% of their income in taxes to support their liberals. If you think that’s a great idea, move to Sweden with the other literally 10’s of people who think it would be a great idea.
Joe Hussein Mama
January 23rd, 2012
11:52 am
RB, sheets, punkin.
CMA energy researcch
January 23rd, 2012
12:33 pm
How great though art! said the good lord.
But how foolish are those who put you into slavery?
There turn will come when they wished not.
Yes the U.S. will financially crash and so will their military as predicated by the good book.
But then so will the beast from the east also be destroyed from taking advantage of slavery.
People will only take so much. And when the market is saturated? What next said the little boy? Your calamity shall also come.
It is better to live among the meek and lowly then to rule among fools of industry!
You should have stayed home to help your family and friends when you had the chance. But you worshiped your money not love.
Peter
January 23rd, 2012
12:50 pm
Those who are concerned about this, why don’t start by boycotting Apple products?
Adam
January 23rd, 2012
2:40 pm
(ir)Rational: Sorry, had work to do so didn’t get to this till now:
Adam – I see it as the same as telling someone that the fence is electrified and then they tried to climb it.
Well, if fine print is the way you mean, then they were told the fence was electrified in Latin, when they only understand English.
I meant, what channel is it going to be aired on? Who is going to pay the people to give the lectures and produce the shows? And then who is going to pay for that channel to continue airing it after their advertisers stop paying for that half-hour because no one is watching?
PBS has a nice model whereby they get some government funding but get a lot of donations as well. It works out ok so I would go with PBS. It will take someone willing to do the shows without receiving as much pay as they would if they were teaching in a university. Presumably they could then direct their own students to it if needed, perhaps as a supplemental material like text books. Advertisers on PBS may not follow the model you are talking about but I do not know for sure.
Adam
January 23rd, 2012
2:41 pm
Bruno: It’s tempting, but please don’t let the actions of the vocal extremists within the conservative movement prejudice you against ALL conservatives.
Totally fair, and I apologize. But I hope you will recognize I also do not fall under the broad brush of government running every aspect of one’s life in search of an enforced Utopia.
YOUR party SUCKS! But MINE is GRRRRRREAT! (formerly That Black Guy)
January 23rd, 2012
3:24 pm
Paul
January 23rd, 2012
11:20 am
Your Party
I see now why you didn’t post under your usual name -
Why?
Mary Elizabeth
January 23rd, 2012
5:33 pm
More facts about what it is like to live in China (aside from Chinese workers’ conditions), as compared with living in the United States. The below information gives even more evidence that Eleanor Roosevelt’s Universal Document for Human Rights should be given voice in China.
Protest in WuKan, China
China’s rural unrest
14 Dec 11: Stand-off in Wukan after a villager dies in custody
21-23 Sept 11: Three days of rioting in Wukan
Nov 08: Protesters attack government buildings over plans to demolish homes in Gansu
Apr 08: One person killed as police fire on protesters in Yunnan
March 07: Up to 20,000 rural workers clash with police in Hunan
Dec 05: Police shoot dead a number of protesters in Guangdong
April 05: Some 20,000 peasants drive off more than 1,000 riot police in Zhejiang
Nov 04: Paramilitary troops put down uprising of about 100,000 farmers in Sichuan province
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-16192541
sam
January 23rd, 2012
5:34 pm
Foxconn is international company start in Taiwan and owner is a Taiwanese.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn
Mary Elizabeth
January 23rd, 2012
5:51 pm
sam @ 5:34 pm
Sam, thank you for your information, and for your source in Wikipedia. Here is the last sentence of that Wikipedia article regarding Foxconn International Company:
——————————————————–
“The company has been involved in several controversies – most relating to how it manages employees in China, where it is the largest private employer. International attention has repeatedly been drawn to the suicides of workers and the conditions of employment.
——————————————————–
Again, emphasis on Universal Human Rights is needed in China for Chinese workers and citizens.
Mary Elizabeth
January 23rd, 2012
6:05 pm
The words below – regarding Foxconn and China – were written to me, today, from a longstanding friend of mine from New York City, who was married for almost 30 years to a Chinese professor until he died in NYC.
=====================================================
“There have been a whole lot of articles about it. And WNYC had a wonderful program (This American Life–you can perhaps access it on their archives) on Foxcon, the factory that makes electronic devices for Apple, Sony and many other companies. I taped some of it. I can send you the tape if you want. Just ask. That factory uses chemicals that are potent neurotoxins, which poison the neurological makeup of its workers, so that after a decade of use, their hands tremble so much that they can’t pick up a glass—become useless, and their minds too, are terribly affected. A great many of the factory workers there have committed suicide by jumping off the top of the building. The building has nets to catch the jumpers now. The air in Beijing and Shanghai is unbreathable and the officials all stay inside with their air filters and their water purifiers.
I visited China many times, first as a visiting professor, traveling the length and breadth of the country visiting art schools all over the country. Then I visited with my husband several more time, traveling widely each time. Traveling with him, I was able to stay at the homes of Chinese families, and talk with many of the ordinary people whom we met in our travels, sometimes on long train trips which took several days on the train. He was a very famous architect, and had many connections to people all over the country, who were deeply troubled about the direction China is taking. My husband’s family is Chinese, and we maintain a pretty close relationship. They visit China sometimes, but their visits have tapered off some now because of the pollution and because they are afraid the food isn’t safe, as so many pesticides and genetically engineered foodstuffs have found their way into the food supply. I would like your rightwing readers to read this. This the way the country will go if the rightwingers get their way.
“The repressive, dictatorial, thuggocracy of China resembles nothing so much as the Republican right wing. They loathe labor unions, and jail and torture those who start and support them. They loathe lawyers who go to bat for the common people against the corporations. They adulate and take huge bribes from corporations and venture capitalists. They are massively and unrelentingly pro pollution. Their attitude toward food safety, clean air, clean water is: Who needs it? They have no compunction about torturing those seen as anti-government, and lie about deaths in police custody. China is one of the most pro-capitalist and most heavily polluted and most undemocratic countries in the world. Probably #1 for both. See especially the drama unfolding in the village of Wukan.”
Willydoit?
January 23rd, 2012
6:56 pm
Damn those China-men…making money and buying automobiles and using up OUR supply of cheap gasoline!!!
md
January 23rd, 2012
8:48 pm
Well….if this isn’t a duh article……….
Been preaching this for months, but the head in the sand crowd still can’t see it.
Hello……and who do you think is buying all those products they make???
Yep……buying yourselves right out of a job……….
Mary Elizabeth
January 23rd, 2012
8:57 pm
Bottom Line: The human race is going to have to make a vital choice.
Are material goods and monetary “things,” more important to us than the human rights and the well- being of all human beings throughout the globe? Once we know the answer to that question, deep in our souls, we will know where we must place our priorities, our money, and our ideological/philosophical values.
Fast and Furious Spending
January 24th, 2012
2:27 am
Where do you get your info on the abundance of US engineers? I get my info about the dire need for more from GT and the Director of Engineering, the head of the CE school and other leaders in private and public busineeses. I also have enginering friends who graduated and have gone into teaching, restaurant ownership, computers, etc. Engineers need not be constrained as some graduates are!
Road Scholar
“Director” of engineering? Don’t know who you’re talking about there. You might mean Gary May, the “Dean”? He wouldn’t know, actually because he doesn’t hire people. Joe Hughes doesn’t either, but he’s no longer chair now from what I hear.
And if you’re working on road projects for 37 years, you’re in the very rare air of experience for engineers, and I imagine you’ve got people calling you all the time wanting you to talk to them. If I had at least ten years behind me, maybe I’d do somewhat better in this market.
Maybe, if things are so great, you could hire me?
Wait a minute. I’ll bet you’ve got all the engineers you need right now, don’t you? That’s my information on transpo engineers right now. Just look at the job ads for Atlanta firms, including your own. They aren’t there, and I bet I even know people at the firm you work for. If you’ve been in transpo for that long, you sure as hell know the principal of the firm I work for. Show me someone with a BSCE, EIT and I will show you someone who is probably unemployed or at the very least underemployed (unless Jacobs hired them to work in Hong Kong). Face it Road, with the lousy economy, firms have their pick of Master’s and PhD candidates.
Besides, you don’t ask the faculty at Georgia Tech anything about the need for engineers. I love all of them–Myer is a great transpo leader too, but these profs get six figures for contemplating how to get grants from the public sector. Those looking for private sector grants right now are hurting, but not quite so much as those of us looking for better engineering jobs. They don’t connect with engineering firms–though there are exceptions. Most of them simply worry about their own business, their own research and getting tenure if they don’t already have it. Once that happens they can be fairly worry-free about the job market. They’re also selling education, and they want good grad students they can brag about to their colleagues. Of course, they’re going to tell you there’s a high demand for engineers.
Every one of the profs is smart enough and accomplished enough to produce fine research to maintain their positions. If you yourself don’t know how many engineering graduates are finishing school and then looking hard for jobs (and sometimes waiting tables to make money), then there’s no sense in asking your buddies at Tech. Sounds like you, they, Jay Bookman and Mitt Romney all have the same problem. You are unable to connect with the reality on the street.
Look at the big firms, AMEC and Jacobs for example and see where they are hiring for. It’s the far East and the Middle East. They don’t need us for our own country right now.
The original point I made stands. Bookman was entirely wrong, stating that we need a smarter workforce to improve the economy. It’s just not true at all. What we need is hiring opportunities to encourage entry into the workforce somewhere within the United States.
Richard
January 24th, 2012
9:37 am
True story. Unless you are willing to work in those conditions, stop whining about jobs going overseas.
Richard
January 24th, 2012
9:41 am
Fast and Furious Spending
Sorry, Bro. There are plenty of engineering jobs. I have a BSME and my EIT, and I didn’t have too much trouble. Every engineer from my graduating class that I keep up with has a job somewhere.
David Green
January 24th, 2012
7:39 pm
All the more reason for me to never ever purchase an apple product.