What China has that the U.S. cannot match
Every American concerned about this country’s economic future should take the time to read a lengthy piece in Sunday’s New York Times explaining why Apple refuses to build or assemble its products here in the United States.
Taxes have nothing to do with it. Regulations have nothing to do with it. Both pale in significance to things like this:
An eight-hour drive from that glass factory is a complex, known informally as Foxconn City, where the iPhone is assembled. To Apple executives, Foxconn City was further evidence that China could deliver workers — and diligence — that outpaced their American counterparts.
That’s because nothing like Foxconn City exists in the United States.
The facility has 230,000 employees, many working six days a week, often spending up to 12 hours a day at the plant. Over a quarter of Foxconn’s work force lives in company barracks and many workers earn less than $17 a day. When one Apple executive arrived during a shift change, his car was stuck in a river of employees streaming past. “The scale is unimaginable,” he said.
Foxconn employs nearly 300 guards to direct foot traffic so workers are not crushed in doorway bottlenecks. The facility’s central kitchen cooks an average of three tons of pork and 13 tons of rice a day. While factories are spotless, the air inside nearby teahouses is hazy with the smoke and stench of cigarettes.
Foxconn Technology has dozens of facilities in Asia and Eastern Europe, and in Mexico and Brazil, and it assembles an estimated 40 percent of the world’s consumer electronics for customers like Amazon, Dell, Hewlett-Packard, Motorola, Nintendo, Nokia, Samsung and Sony.
“They could hire 3,000 people overnight,” said Jennifer Rigoni, who was Apple’s worldwide supply demand manager until 2010, but declined to discuss specifics of her work. “What U.S. plant can find 3,000 people overnight and convince them to live in dorms?”
Unless Americans are willing to live in dorms where their lives are completely controlled by their employers, and do so for less than $17 a day, they cannot compete for the kind of assembly-line jobs that many of our fathers and grandfathers performed. Apple, which last year generated $400,000 in profit, not revenue, per employee, employs just 43,000 people here in the United States, while its outsourcing contractors overseas employ some 700,000.
Focusing on taxation and regulation as the cause of our challenges may be politically and ideologically convenient, but it’s a distraction. As long as that’s the focus of our debate, we aren’t addressing the true problems that we face.
In fact, the situation reminds me of the old story about the drunk who has lost his car keys and is searching for them under a street light.
“Well, where did you lose them?” somebody asks.
“Somewhere over there,” the drunk says, pointing out into the inky darkness.
“Then why are you looking for them over here, under the street light?”
“Becaush the light’s better.”
– Jay Bookman
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280 comments Add your comment
TaxPayer
January 23rd, 2012
9:28 am
I bought made in America for my output display device. I’m still trying to get the hang of reading smoke signals. Y’all type slower, kthks. As for the Made in American CPU, I got an idea from a commercial I saw that had these little critters rowing a boat to generate electricity. Row! Row! Row! …
Newtpewt
January 23rd, 2012
9:29 am
“Free Trade” with China sure isn’t fair trade…China’s gaining ground on us by any means possible. This sort of reminds me of an old “Outer Limits” episode: “Hundred Days of the Dragon.” Enjoy!:
http://www.hulu.com/watch/63078/the-outer-limits—original-the-hundred-days-of-the-dragon
Bruno
January 23rd, 2012
9:29 am
Companies like Foxconn are moving factories farther inland to take advantage of even lower-priced labor because the workers along the coast are getting uppity and demanding more money. But, hey! It’s capitalism isn’t it?
Maybe you can help me out, then Sooth. What was there before Foxconn?? Why are these people jumping at the chance to work there???
Adam
January 23rd, 2012
9:32 am
Bruno: until you consider the alternative, which would be no job at all at $0 wages.
False choice. Given your “rosy” view of things, one should accept a penny per hour just because it is more than nothing. And that is utter nonsense. There’s a reason people talk about a “living wage.” Anything below such a wage makes it hard to actually live. Poverty level wages in this country leave 1 in 8 people hungry already, and you want to INCREASE that amount by making it so that there are more jobs, but at lower wages. Don’t be fooled into thinking the high or living wage jobs will stay there if lower and lower wages are allowed.
Basically, you want to trade more people being able to survive and feed their families for a net increase in the number of people employed. Employment means nothing if you can’t take care of yourself and your family with it.
Jm
January 23rd, 2012
9:32 am
Government just outlawed tax refund loans
Hope you don’t need that money sooner
Better to short shrift the Feds anyway
Adam
January 23rd, 2012
9:33 am
Government just outlawed tax refund loans
Good. People were getting fleeced on that.
(ir)Rational
January 23rd, 2012
9:33 am
Bruno – Just because it is better than what they had before doesn’t make it right. I don’t think anyway. Companies like Apple, Dell and HP shouldn’t work with these factories that work that way. I don’t think we could actually do anything about it, which means they’ll always work with those suppliers, but that doesn’t make it right.
Craig
January 23rd, 2012
9:33 am
Seriously, Adam? Suggesting that we have too much regulation is not nearly the same as saying we should have no regulation. Who’s advocating that idea?
Fast and Furious Spending
January 23rd, 2012
9:33 am
St. Simons,
You’re entirely right. But since the politics in Georgia are conservative, non-collectively thinking, and since you are, I’m going to arrest you for your anti-government speech and have you flogged until you beg for forgiveness. –that’s the Chinese model too.
And on another note, the Chinese are going to have a problem–a huge one–when their population begins to decline because of all the “pulling on the same rope” stupid collectivist decisions they made decades ago to control population. All that health care, elderly care, education and work will have to be done by someone. Who’s going to be around to pay all those bills.
Well, at least India is still growing.
Let’s just keep that in mind when we’re out praising the “virtues” of the Chinese.
Bruno
January 23rd, 2012
9:33 am
Not that you care to be honest but I can agree that you and many Republicans do NOT care. You fail to lack real compassion. Out of sight, out of mind. There are MANY who do care and by expressing their opinions here, to Apple employees, by protesting, and by acting in small ways and urging others to act, they can make a difference.
Keep–thanks for espousing liberal hypocrisy in one neat paragraph. “We liberals are just as happy to buy the cheap products coming out of China, thus financially supporting and perpetuating a system we claim to disagree with, but all’s well because we send a few meaningless emails out to assuage our guilty feelings”.
And you wonder why I laugh at your posts.
Adam
January 23rd, 2012
9:34 am
Craig: Who’s advocating that idea?
Ron Paul
Jay
January 23rd, 2012
9:35 am
The shortage of a trained, engineering-conversant workforce in America is without doubt part of the problem. Let’s talk about that. Let’s debate it, and figure out a way to fix it. Amen.
Yet we can’t and don’t. Why? Because we can’t get past the bogus “taxes and regulation” formulation that dominates our economic conversation. Fixing education is one of the things “out there in the darkness” and we’re staying under the streetlight.
Adam
January 23rd, 2012
9:36 am
Craig: And anyway the regulations and laws I mentioned are the only ones affecting our ability to create a FoxConn City. Any one of those laws makes such a thing impossible in our country. They ALL need to go if we want a FoxConn City. Personally, I am against that.
Fast and Furious Spending
January 23rd, 2012
9:36 am
NewtPewt, 929
The Chinese aren’t the threat to the economy that the Obama administration is.
Before the Chinese, politicians told us to watch out for the Japanese; before that it was the Germans; before that it was Britain; before that it was….. go and learn yourself.
(ir)Rational
January 23rd, 2012
9:37 am
Adam @ 9:33 – People were getting fleeced on those, but the government’s job isn’t to keep people from making bad choices. I mean, if we’re going to go that route, the government should close all pawn shops, title loans and payday loans. But do we really want a government that is powerful enough to do that? If we allow them that power, when do we stop them?
Road Scholar
January 23rd, 2012
9:37 am
r: I agree with your post. The kids have had things handed to them over and over again that we used to have to work for. Most, not all, lack motivation and the basic communication and job skills neeeded to get their foot in the door. But Mom and Dad will take care of it…like threatening to sue your professor because the grade was below what the Hope scholarship would permit.
But there is hope in the small % of students who have a clear vision, motivation, and parents who know better.
Adam
January 23rd, 2012
9:37 am
Jay: Yet we can’t and don’t. Why? Because we can’t get past the bogus “taxes and regulation” formulation that dominates our economic conversation.
I would also argue that we seem to be averse to the idea of funding training of any kind, even in the corporate environment where you are mostly expected to just know everything already.
USinUK
January 23rd, 2012
9:39 am
Bruno – “It sounds to me that you’d be happy to see them starve to death instead as long as they did it with “dignity”.”
WHAT a load of rubbish.
geez-o-pete, Bruno … there really are times when I wonder if you know your arse from your elbow …
this is one of those times.
you’re saying that the ONLY alternative to living in a dorm and working 12 hours/day, 6 days / week is no work and starvation???
do you actually BELIEVE the crap that comes out of you sometimes or do you jsut post it to stir the pot???
nelson
January 23rd, 2012
9:39 am
What China has is a worker that makes 70,000 outdoor umbrellas for Walmart in a year. The umbrellas sell for 10 dollars each. That is $700,000. The umbrellas cost $1.00 for materials or a total of $70,000. The worker is paid $7,000 a year.
That is a profit for the company of $623,000 a year frosm 1 worker. And that worker is happy to have that job.
That is what China has.
(ir)Rational
January 23rd, 2012
9:40 am
Jay – I don’t know, there have been several people, myself included, that have said that education is the problem. But like I said, I’m not convinced it is necessarily education as much as it is parents telling their children they’re too “special” or “good” to go to technical schools or straight to work in factories.
Bosch
January 23rd, 2012
9:40 am
Nice article Bookman. The Chinese model of manufacturing have made our economy great- more people can afford to buy their cheap products.
JamVet
January 23rd, 2012
9:41 am
Jay, that and the imbecilic “Unionized labor killed American manufacturing” canard…
Jm
January 23rd, 2012
9:42 am
Jay 9:35
The US needs free enterprise zones similar to, though not exactly like china’s
GA could try it but most regs are federal, not state, so that only gets you so far
GA could, however, bulk up the tech school programs. And I mean in a big way. Big campus, big money, big class sizes, big results
Adam
January 23rd, 2012
9:43 am
(ir)Rational: but the government’s job isn’t to keep people from making bad choices.
Like, say, abortion? Speeding? Deciding to buy food rather than pay for your license tab on your car? Things like that? Oh go ahead and nitpick and pretend those are somehow different, but that’s all still government getting in your business.
If someone is presenting you a choice to unknowingly give away your money to them, that SHOULD be illegal. THAT is what it’s about, not whether or not you have a choice in the matter.
Thorn in my Side
January 23rd, 2012
9:43 am
What to do with all the workers that are no longer productive. I need to investigate the alternatives.
Jm
January 23rd, 2012
9:44 am
Oh. And it should be just outside savannah
Tiny savannah has more manufacturing than Atlanta
JCB, gulfstream….. Etc
Fast and Furious Spending
January 23rd, 2012
9:44 am
Jay,
Don’t know if your post was directed as a response to my criticism of you and Obama that has gone completely untouched. If it was, I’m here to tell you… You whiffed, completely.
Funny, but what you’re writing about now sounds like whining to me. Talk about it? Debate it?
Yeah sure, this is like the debates (one way debates) Cynthia used to have about “racism”, which in fact, Obama promised, and you damn-well know it.
First, we have engineers aplenty, that is, we do right now (in a booming economy we might have to import some). Second, the education lobby votes Democrat, and it is they, and by extension you and Obama who don’t want education reform. What in Barack obama’s “fundamental transformation” of this country threatened the status quo in education? Nothing. You know that too.
Well, if we can’t get past the “bogus” taxes and regulation format of discussion, it’s only because the Democrats are out of ideas besides nationalizing college students loans and throwing rail car loads of sop-money to teacher’s unions.
Besides, fixing education won’t make 3000 employees available tomorrow.
Sacking the NLRB would come a lot closer, at least to the good people of Boeing and South Carolina.
You think Boeing doesn’t have the engineers it needs, Jay?
Adam
January 23rd, 2012
9:45 am
Jm: GA could, however, bulk up the tech school programs. And I mean in a big way. Big campus, big money, big class sizes, big results
And who is going to pay for that?
Welcome to the Occupation
January 23rd, 2012
9:45 am
Back when Steve Jobs died, I tried to discretely point out the naivete in Jobs’ optimistic claim that ‘WANTS to die’, a claim I found remarkable given that workers at Apple’s very own affiliate Foxconn had been hurling themselves off buildings out of sheer desperation after being subjected to the horrendous working conditions there.
I think we have a hard time imagining the brutality of what is emerging in China, a place where you have arguably the most efficient form of capitalism ever developed.
And all of it without the constraints of Western norms of human rights and personal liberty.
As Slavoj Zizek says, China’s emergence heralds the realization that the marriage between liberal democracy and capitalism is over.
Craig
January 23rd, 2012
9:46 am
Adam, I agree with you that FoxConn City has no place in America. But we’re in a pretty tough spot. Many of the benefits that American workers enjoy were granted in an era when we had little or no industrial competition. That is a world we no longer live in. I agree with those that say a more highly skilled work force is probably the only way up from here. Unfortunately, our education establishment is so bogged down in regulation and social idealism (that’s not a good phrase, I know) that I’m not sure how that’s going to work out either.
RB from Gwinnett
January 23rd, 2012
9:46 am
$17/day Jay? How much does the Chinese government pay the people who have decided they don’t really want to get up 6 days a week, live in the company barracks, or do the work being offered to them? Do you think they get $20/day or $15 or what to stay home and move from Section 8 line to TANF line to food stamps line to ……………
I’d bet money if you took 3000 people from the unemployment roll and paid them $10/hr to do the same work those Chinese are doing, 1,500 of them wouldn’t show up for work at least 1 of those 6 day work weeks.
Welcome to the Occupation
January 23rd, 2012
9:46 am
Sorry, that should read: “Back when Steve Jobs died, I tried to discretely point out the naivete in Jobs’ optimistic claim that ‘nobody WANTS to die’ …
(ir)Rational
January 23rd, 2012
9:46 am
Road – Yeah, I started doing poorly in college and my dad said “you will probably lose your scholarships at the end of this semester, if you do, I’ve talked to Don and he’ll get you a job at the mill.” Interestingly enough, I was able to apply myself just a bit more, and pulled out my best semester in college. Most kids I know weren’t like that. I had a friend who was doing bad at Emory, wasn’t on scholarship and his parents were dirt poor. Yet they continued paying for him to go to school (for some reason they didn’t make him get student loans) and then paid for him an apartment when he flunked out and got a job at Best Buy.
Fast and Furious Spending
January 23rd, 2012
9:46 am
Jay,
And come to think of it, the Chinese are talking about assembly-line workers. You’re talking about engineers.
You can’t even stay on topic today.
mm
January 23rd, 2012
9:46 am
“We can’t make a fake rubber snake here now-a-days?!? Nice job, Libs!”
It bewilders me how the wingnuts brought about this mess and then want to blame the left.
Adam
January 23rd, 2012
9:47 am
You know what makes 3000 employees available tomorrow? Hiring 3000 out of the millions currently out of work.
Think about that before you wax poetic on how we just can’t hire people like that.
Road Scholar
January 23rd, 2012
9:47 am
ir: It’s both the type of education and the education they get from their parents…if they are even involved. Gov Deal has said he wants HS freshmen to pick one of 17 paths of education for HS. A freshman has no clue. Heck, most college freshmen have a clue of what they want to do with their lives/careers.
Why not narrow the career paths down to a few concentrating on math, science, english, a second language (this should happen when they are younger), and history. Computer and communication electives would fill out the program. There is a dire amount of engineers coming out of college today, esp compared to India and China.
Normal
January 23rd, 2012
9:47 am
“The worst of Newt Gingrich is better than the best of Obama.”
Only in the fevered minds of the GOP brainwashed….
TaxPayer
January 23rd, 2012
9:47 am
Fixing education is one of the things “out there in the darkness” and we’re staying under the streetlight.
There seems to be less and less Hope of that happening here in Georgia with each passing day. Not that affordable education has any bearing.
mm
January 23rd, 2012
9:47 am
Yes, the righties have been busted again so they start their usual lies and diversions.
Bruno
January 23rd, 2012
9:48 am
False choice. Given your “rosy” view of things, one should accept a penny per hour just because it is more than nothing. And that is utter nonsense.
Bruno – Just because it is better than what they had before doesn’t make it right. I don’t think anyway. Companies like Apple, Dell and HP shouldn’t work with these factories that work that way. I don’t think we could actually do anything about it, which means they’ll always work with those suppliers, but that doesn’t make it right.
Sorry, guys, I live in the real world. DDR, for example, had to explain to me last night why it was a horrible crime for Mrs. Sanford, a poor black widow, to pay me $1 per hour ate age 11 to help her and her family work the fields. So, while lawyer Debbie feels great about enforcing the child labor laws and minimum wage laws, I would have made no money at all and the crops would have rotted in the field because Mrs Sanford simply couldn’t afford to pay more.
I know all of you feel great up in you Utopian ivory towers, but those of us who grew up on the poor side of town know that you’re full of crap.
Jm
January 23rd, 2012
9:50 am
Adam
The taxpayer and the students
Duh
Any more silly questions?
Adam
January 23rd, 2012
9:50 am
Craig: Unfortunately, our education establishment is so bogged down in regulation and social idealism (that’s not a good phrase, I know) that I’m not sure how that’s going to work out either.
Our education system is bogged down with the idea that teachers are not allowed to fail their students because they will either get fired or the parents will get mad, and that somehow, in some way, the poor people have to pay exorbitant amounts to get pieces of paper just to meet the minimum requirements for most hiring companies. Other countries with more socialist ideals have state-subsidized education that allows everyone to get an education at any level they desire, and a market that does not require a college degree for work that you don’t need college level knowledge for. Maybe we need to have that as part of the conversation, but first we have to calm down off this “SOSHULIZM EVIL!”
(ir)Rational
January 23rd, 2012
9:51 am
Adam – I don’t agree with any of those laws. Speeding is the only one I could make an argument for, but simply because you’re using government property (the roads) and possibly endangering others around you, which could, in the long run, tie up more government resources (police, fire, EMS and road crews). For the fact that by trying to keep you from making a dumb decision, they’re trying to save everyone money, I could almost agree with that.
moonbat betty
January 23rd, 2012
9:53 am
Once Obama migrates our economy to socialism, then communism, then we too can be like the Chinese.
Now that’s change you can belive in!
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
January 23rd, 2012
9:53 am
Well, it’s got to be taxes and regulations. I’m not sure what regulations, but if you put godly Republicans in charge we’ll find them and get rid of them. Don’t try and tell me I’m wrong. I know what I know and I’m always right. That is, except when I’m wrong once in a blue moon.
And I bet all them Chinamen need lots of beer. I mean, with 12 hr days and nothing to do when you’re off work. I bet you China don’t have silly laws and regulations like not letting people drink beer till they’re 21 or so. And we got silly laws that won’t let the Job Creators make people work 12 hr days without paying a fortune in overtime or let kids march off to the factorys like their parents.
It’s Monday all day, folks. And it’s chilly and wet out here. Have a good one.
moonbat betty
January 23rd, 2012
9:54 am
Perhaps we could challenge the chinese in the rubber dogsh*t market?
Adam
January 23rd, 2012
9:55 am
Jm: The taxpayer and the students
Which taxpayers?
Brosephus
January 23rd, 2012
9:55 am
Doggone
It might seem like that for a while, but eventually they’ll start rising up to our standard.
That’s all true, but how long will that take for them to start rising, and how far will we have to drop to meet their rise?
TaxPayer
January 23rd, 2012
9:56 am
Once Obama migrates our economy to socialism, then communism, then we too can be like the Chinese.
Perhaps he should do just that so you cons can be correct for a change.
Road Scholar
January 23rd, 2012
9:57 am
Fast: Where do you get your info on the abundance of US engineers? I get my info about the dire need for more from GT and the Director of Engineering, the head of the CE school and other leaders in private and public busineeses. I also have enginering friends who graduated and have gone into teaching, restaurant ownership, computers, etc. Engineers need not be constrained as some graduates are!
ir: I also had a similar motivation, although not on scholarship! I also changed majors and reverted to my childhood likes…I never grew up..I just got older. But I’ve had a meaningful career designing transportation projects statewide…for 37 years.
bman
January 23rd, 2012
9:58 am
hiring 3,000 people in a few days would not be a problem. Having a facility built, and pass every code in the book would. I doubt a person could open a candy shop in less than a month.
Jm
January 23rd, 2012
9:58 am
Every highway should have one lane without a speed limit
Special permit and inspection required (your car needs to be able to go fast without blowing up)
Kamchak
January 23rd, 2012
9:59 am
“Does she…or doesn’t she?
Hair color so natural only her hairdresser knows for sure.”
– Thomas Jefferson
Adam
January 23rd, 2012
10:00 am
(ir)Rational: For the fact that by trying to keep you from making a dumb decision, they’re trying to save everyone money, I could almost agree with that.
As far as speeding goes, I do think it is something that should be MORE enforced in certain areas, and that speed limits should be higher in other areas (i.e. on a long stretch where everyone goes way higher than the limit anyway) and there should be far better driver education than there is, but that’s all a side note.
The argument you make above is contrary to the one you made earlier, as far as I can tell. The government ends tax refund loans and that saves a lot of people money. I can also see why the government should technically have jurisdiction over what companies can do with refunds in the first place. But my main argument is that the choice to get fleeced without realizing it or being informed of what exactly will happen should not be an available choice, because it is wrong and hurtful to fleece people just to make a quick buck. I have a similar stance on car loans, which have largely gone unregulated and draw in slimy financial managers at dealerships.
Bruno
January 23rd, 2012
10:00 am
I mean, if we’re going to go that route, the government should close all pawn shops, title loans and payday loans. But do we really want a government that is powerful enough to do that? If we allow them that power, when do we stop them?
Shhhhh, (ir)Rational–Don’t give the man any more dictatorial ideas than he already has. You see, Adam, like most liberals, really knows whats best for all of us, and he’s ready and willing to use the government to force his Utopian vision on the rest of us. Ameritopia.
you’re saying that the ONLY alternative to living in a dorm and working 12 hours/day, 6 days / week is no work and starvation???
Never said that it’s the only POSSIBLE alternative, only that it’s a better alternative than the life they were living before that. And until you have some kind of realistic plan by which everyone in the world can live a lavish, utopian life, I’m more comfortable with people having SOME opportunity rather than NO opportunity. Emphasis on the word “realistic”.
do you actually BELIEVE the crap that comes out of you sometimes or do you jsut post it to stir the pot???
Actually, both. I know, I know, that type of genius is rare…….
Steve - USA (I support "None Of The Above")
January 23rd, 2012
10:01 am
China is doing what we used to do in this country. The world doesn’t mature at the same rate, China has people willing to work under poor conditions for near nothing but to them it beats starving.
Pretty soon we will probably outsource our engineering to China as well.
I don’t really see a solution to this. I wouldn’t mind seeing schools double their time teaching Math and then at the high school level teach advanced science/engineering.
Trying to blame this on Republicans is a reach, What is the Democratic solution to what goes on in China? Neither party is going to change how China conducts their business.
.
philosopher
January 23rd, 2012
10:01 am
I say let’s send all these opinionated, spoiled, self-righteous, anti-poor, anti-union, wallet-watching screamers over to China and give them a dose of working condiditons as described. I’d bet money at least a quarter of them ( being generous, here) would come back with a new mindset.
moonbat betty
January 23rd, 2012
10:01 am
“strong enough for a man but made for a woman”
Hillary Clinton
Craig
January 23rd, 2012
10:01 am
Adam, my phrase “social idealism” was not a reference to funding. I apologize for not making that point with more clarity. I was actually alluding to the type of problems you mentioned – false praise and promotion, fear of failure, lack of behavior accountability, etc. Although I am strongly of the conservative persuasion, there’s probably a fair amount of common ground between us.
USinUK
January 23rd, 2012
10:02 am
“nd until you have some kind of realistic plan by which everyone in the world can live a lavish, utopian life, I’m more comfortable with people having SOME opportunity rather than NO opportunity. Emphasis on the word “realistic”
it’s a BIRD!
it’s a PLANE!!
IT’S BINARY MAN!!!
Adam
January 23rd, 2012
10:03 am
Jm: Every highway should have one lane without a speed limit
Special permit and inspection required (your car needs to be able to go fast without blowing up)
With guard rails or something to protect the rest of us from the potential stupidity of people who get into that lane. And a wide shoulder in case a wreck or breakdown occurs.
USinUK
January 23rd, 2012
10:04 am
dangitall, hit submit too soon.
again, Bruno – who is talking about living a lavish lifestyle? I’m talking about having a job that pays a living wage AND lets you see your family.
if that’s “lavish” to you, then I think we’ve identified the problem. because that’s minimal to me.
(ir)Rational
January 23rd, 2012
10:04 am
Road – When I was at Tech, in the engineering program (before I decided it wasn’t for me), I felt like I was in a foreign country. In my physics, chemistry, calculus and engineering courses there might be 40%-50% Americans. The rest would mostly be from India. And they were the ones setting the curve for the rest of us. They also made no attempt to hide that Georgia Tech was their 3rd or 4th “safety” school where people like me where GT was my first choice.
Adam
January 23rd, 2012
10:05 am
Bruno: You see, Adam, like most liberals, really knows whats best for all of us, and he’s ready and willing to use the government to force his Utopian vision on the rest of us
Yeah right
I’m not the one saying everyone who gets pregnant should be forced to carry the child to term or die trying. I’m also not the one saying we are a “Christian Nation” and that it’s not ok to discriminate against Christians, but it is totally ok to do the same against Muslims, and that Muslims should not be allowed to build mosques anywhere, etc etc.
Bruno
January 23rd, 2012
10:06 am
Other countries with more socialist ideals have state-subsidized education that allows everyone to get an education at any level they desire, and a market that does not require a college degree for work that you don’t need college level knowledge for.
And without exception, the average standard of living is far below that of the US in every one of those socialized countries.
At what point will you ditch the theories and look at reality, Adam??
Jm
January 23rd, 2012
10:06 am
Adam
Permit would require a much more stringent driving test than normally given
Welcome to the Occupation
January 23rd, 2012
10:06 am
Once Obama migrates our economy to socialism, then communism, then we too can be like the Chinese. / Now that’s change you can belive in!
Wow, that’s good satire. Pretty funny!
Adam
January 23rd, 2012
10:07 am
Craig: Although I am strongly of the conservative persuasion, there’s probably a fair amount of common ground between us.
I would agree with that. For the most part, I think this is highly likely of a majority of the population. However, polarizing issues get in the way too often for us to focus on solutions that work and lift everyone up. Chances are whatever problem we are having, someone, somewhere in the world, has solved it and we only need to follow that example.
Adam
January 23rd, 2012
10:08 am
Jm: Permit would require a much more stringent driving test than normally given
What would be the problem with giving such a test to everyone?
Doggone/GA
January 23rd, 2012
10:08 am
“That’s all true, but how long will that take for them to start rising, and how far will we have to drop to meet their rise?”
Well, that’s a discussion…but just as an indicator, try checking out the progression for “spinners” in the fabric industries and their conversion from hand-spinning to automated. Yes, a lot of hand-spinners were put out of work because of automation, but automation allowed the fabric industries to eliminate a huge bottleneck and to vastly increase their production.
So to the hand-spinners who lost their jobs that was devastating, but in the long-term it was good for the economy. So right now we’re in the position of those spinners who lost their work, but long-term it’s going to be good for the workers elsewhere.
OUR problem is to find a way to bridge that gap until those workers are raised up. In the case of the hand-spinners, SOME of them turned automation on it’s head and made a market for themselves in the market for luxury textiles made by hand.
Steve - USA (I support "None Of The Above")
January 23rd, 2012
10:08 am
Maybe it’s time to make public television useful. Every night broadcast a program designed to teach advance Math geared towards educating young people. That way every child with a TV could get taught by a superior teacher no matter where they live.
Just brainstorming.
Welcome to the Occupation
January 23rd, 2012
10:08 am
Bruno: “And without exception, the average standard of living is far below that of the US in every one of those socialized countries. ”
Uh excuse me?
Countries like Germany (not really socialist but I’m guessing counts as such since they have obviously Leninist principles such as worker co-determination on all major corporate boards, guaranteed cradle to grave health care, etc.), not to mention Denmark, Sweden, Norway have a lower standard of living than we do?
Think again!
Normal
January 23rd, 2012
10:09 am
http://news.icanhascheezburger.com/2012/01/23/political-pictures-newt-gingrich-how-dare-they/
Adam
January 23rd, 2012
10:10 am
Bruno: And without exception, the average standard of living is far below that of the US in every one of those socialized countries.
At what point will you ditch the theories and look at reality, Adam??
Oh really? Got some proof of that? You can start by making comparisons between us and Germany. Oh, and be honest and use actual data that can be verified. Good luck!
(ir)Rational
January 23rd, 2012
10:10 am
Adam – Sorry, I guess I wasn’t as clear as I intended. I meant that speeding costs the government and taxpayers more money. Your personal choices could affects others that have nothing to do with you personally negatively. If you take an early refund loan, and aren’t able to pay it back, your choices have affected you, and possibly your family negatively, but not others. That’s the difference I see.
Adam
January 23rd, 2012
10:11 am
Steve: Every night broadcast a program designed to teach advance Math geared towards educating young people. That way every child with a TV could get taught by a superior teacher no matter where they live.
Not a bad idea.
Bosch
January 23rd, 2012
10:11 am
USinUK
@10:04
It could be argued that many Americans live that lifestyle without the dorms. How many people now work 12 hour days, barely make ends meet and see their families a couple hours a day? We just don’t have dorms, unless you consider the people who lose their homes andmove in with family or friends…..
Jm
January 23rd, 2012
10:12 am
Adam 10:08
2/3 of the country would fail, bringing our immobile economy to a halt
(ir)Rational
January 23rd, 2012
10:13 am
Steve/Adam – So, what channel? Who pays for it? And who pays the stations when their ratings plummet and as a result their advertisers bail for that time period?
Jay
January 23rd, 2012
10:13 am
“Other countries with more socialist ideals have state-subsidized education that allows everyone to get an education at any level they desire, and a market that does not require a college degree for work that you don’t need college level knowledge for.
“And without exception, the average standard of living is far below that of the US in every one of those socialized countries.”
———————–
Bruno Bruno Bruno … Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands, Canada, Austria, Switzerland, Australia all have systems like that described above, and all have comparable and in Norway’s case even superior per capita GDP to the USA.
carlosgvv
January 23rd, 2012
10:13 am
Apple could have all it’s factories in America, sell it’s products at the same price as now and make a profit. Of course, the profit margin would not be as much as it is by using China’s workers and factories. In plain language, Apple is a company that has no patroitism whatsever and no regard whatsover for the American worker. They are motivated solely by greed and profit. It’s the American way. And, yes, Noogie Gingrich loves them.
Paul
January 23rd, 2012
10:13 am
off topic
Jamvet – getalife
this is what Google, Inc. and other label as censorship in legislation regarding Internet content providers:
http://www.businessinsider.com/kim-dotcom-megaupload-2012-1
According to the US Department of Justice, however, it is Mr Dotcom and his “Mega conspiracy” that is perpetrating the rip-off, costing content owners more than $500m by disseminating pirated content through Megaupload and its associated sites…”
Not paying for stuff you sell is quite profitable
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2089954/Megaupload-founder-Kim-Dotcom-sprang-electronic-locks-Bond-villain-lair-police-swooped.html
bman
January 23rd, 2012
10:14 am
Steve .. .. that’s actually a great idea. The Education Channel
(ir)Rational
January 23rd, 2012
10:14 am
Bosch – I know plenty of people like those you just described. I’m one missed paycheck away from moving in with family. Planning to go back to school in the fall (yay evening classes) and get another degree that will hopefully allow me to transition into a different, better paying career.
Joseph
January 23rd, 2012
10:15 am
I guess Marxism or Communism is the answer for you then Jay? You already have a President on the same page…….
Adam
January 23rd, 2012
10:15 am
(ir)Rational: If you take an early refund loan, and aren’t able to pay it back, your choices have affected you, and possibly your family negatively, but not others. That’s the difference I see.
Well, I just see the problem from a different angle. I think it’s highly immoral for someone to set up a company that does refund loans to make excuses when that family goes broke over it that they did it to themselves. The avenue was given to them to “make a bad choice,” and then we wash our hands of it after we gave them that choice without even hinting at the possible consequences.
It’s like not telling someone that fence is electrified if they decide to try to climb it. Yes, they decided to kill themselves, but if you knew and didn’t tell them and you are perfectly ok with just going “oh well, it was their choice to do it” then something is wrong.
Joseph
January 23rd, 2012
10:15 am
I say let disshonest baised journalists be the first in these interment camps…. n
Normal
January 23rd, 2012
10:16 am
http://justcapshunz.icanhascheezburger.com/2012/01/20/funny-captions-finally-a-republican-candidate-who-makes-sense/
Adam
January 23rd, 2012
10:17 am
(ir)Rational: So, what channel? Who pays for it? And who pays the stations when their ratings plummet and as a result their advertisers bail for that time period?
I can answer the first two but before I do, I must ask for clarification on your third question. i do not understand it.
Jm
January 23rd, 2012
10:17 am
Carlosgvv
So does O
Occupy should be in Pali alto
Not wall st
Bruno
January 23rd, 2012
10:18 am
again, Bruno – who is talking about living a lavish lifestyle? I’m talking about having a job that pays a living wage AND lets you see your family.
USinUK–Do you really think that I don’t have the same wish for everyone?? A 20 hour work week would be great, with 8 weeks off to spend quality time with the family. And if you can show me a realistic way to achieve that, I’ll vote for you. However, as long as you subscribe to the Bookman School of Social Protest, i.e squawking is our only responsibility, leave the solutions to someone else, I’m going to give you a hard time. Especially when you attempt to blame our failure to achieve a utopian society on the feet of one political party.
In brighter news, did you hear about the now-fabled JamVet-Bruno detente over the weekend?? My girl PlatinumBlack and I showed him how to party Bruno style. I’m here to tell you, the man is a chick magnet. He had no less than 3 hot blondes throwing themselves on him on the dance floor.
philosopher
January 23rd, 2012
10:18 am
Adam- some nice optimism-there. The results of the primary in SC soured my optimism (at least temporarily). I didn’t believe even S.Carolina would have ignored the slime-so very much slime- and sell their professed prinicples for a man like Newt. I find it scary, really scary. As much as I am not a rightwing anything, I always tried to respect these folks’ “beliefs”…at least I THOUGHT they really believed the stuff they spouted. But, no…it was all a bunch of bunk. a facade to cover the real agendas.
Welcome to the Occupation
January 23rd, 2012
10:18 am
I guess Marxism or Communism is the answer for you then Jay? You already have a President on the same page…….
Lol.
Where do these people COME from?
It’s unbelievable. They really buy this stuff. They really do.
Joseph, do you not realize that the world economy under global capitalism is a SYSTEM?
Therefore, if labor protections are eliminated the American worker, and eventually all people who earn their living through their wage labor, will eventually be impoverished once companies finally stop paying them more than the peanuts they can pay a peasant in China or somewhere else. That reality is systemic and inevitable short of an ideological revolution in world economic policy, do you at least recognize that fact?
What is YOUR SOLUTION to this problem?
Paul
January 23rd, 2012
10:19 am
Joseph
“I guess Marxism or Communism is the answer for you then Jay? You already have a President on the same page…….”
You don’t read from the beginning of the blog, do you? From earlier:
“Care to tell us which keeps us from becoming more like China regarding work conditions:
- putting in place laws and regulations regarding workplace safety, work conditions, maximum hours worked, minimum pay and overtime, etc. or
- getting rid of all regulations regarding the same, eliminating OSHA, getting rid of all wage, workplace health and safety laws and regulations?
Then lead us to the conclusion which course will make us more like communist China?”
Pres Obama’s proposals, or Republican proposals?
(ir)Rational
January 23rd, 2012
10:20 am
carlos – Just because Apple started in America means they should only produce their product in America? Somebody go tell GM that they need to close all their foreign manufacturing and supply plants. They’re not being patriotic. Especially considering the government practically bought them a couple of years ago. Wait, you mean they, like Apple sell their products in other countries? And that the revenue from those other countries helps them remain profitable? Well, too bad, let’s add shipping costs and higher wages into the price of every GM vehicle.
Also, from a much less sarcastic point of view. If their profit margins weren’t as high as they are, what are the teachers, firefighters, police, factory workers/anyone with an IRA going to do when their stock plummets because they moved their factories to the US and their no longer as profitable? Cause you know, as well as I do (well, I guess I could be assuming too much there) that a lot of these IRAs, 401Ks, mutual funds ect. have Apple stock.
Erwin's cat
January 23rd, 2012
10:20 am
what’s the saying?……”it’s amazing what can be accomplished with unlimited slave labor”…look at the great wall for that matter !
Road Scholar
January 23rd, 2012
10:20 am
ir: I have also heard from the director of admissions and their policy today is to broaden the experiences of their students by not depending only on admitting the top applicants. They want students to experience other cultures on campus. Also some of the schools have a study abroad program for a semester; the kids that have done this are extremely impressive.
Bosch
January 23rd, 2012
10:24 am
Irrational,
Good luck!! I recently took a plunge and put my family at a financial risk, so I’m keeping my fingers crossed it all works out!! But yeah it’s funny how lots of people are all critical of this Chinese model, while many maybe most people in this country are not much better off!! The good thing we have is our education system, but that is no guarantee of an improvement in living conditions- but chances of improved living standards are certainly lowered without it! Again, hangin there and it’s better to do those things while you are young!!
(ir)Rational
January 23rd, 2012
10:24 am
Adam – I see it as the same as telling someone that the fence is electrified and then they tried to climb it. If people would read, it is all spelled out for them in the fine print. I do realize that is asking a lot from the typical American though (not trying to be sarcastic there).
Adam – I meant, what channel is it going to be aired on? Who is going to pay the people to give the lectures and produce the shows? And then who is going to pay for that channel to continue airing it after their advertisers stop paying for that half-hour because no one is watching?