In Illinois, a church-state conundrum of real consequence
Here’s the crux of the issue, as described by the New York Times:
“Roman Catholic bishops in Illinois have shuttered most of the Catholic Charities affiliates in the state rather than comply with a new requirement that says they must consider same-sex couples as potential foster-care and adoptive parents if they want to receive state money. The charities have served for more than 40 years as a major link in the state’s social service network for poor and neglected children.”
The Illinois diocese sees itself as a victim of religious persecution. “In the name of tolerance, we’re not being tolerated,” as Bishop Thomas J. Paprocki put it. The church believes that it should be able to use taxpayer dollars as it wishes, in line with its religious beliefs, even if its actions violate Illinois law forbidding discrimination against its gay citizens.
I would argue that the church is not being persecuted. It is not persecution to be held to the standards that are applied to every other contractor that does business with the state. To the contrary, the church is demanding “special rights” to violate the law and to use taxpayers’ money to do so. It’s akin to some church or social agency taking state money to run soup kitchens to feed the poor, but demanding the right to deny aid to black people or Hispanics.
The church, using its own funds, would have every right to refuse to assist in gay adoptions. The First Amendment gives it that protection. But by accepting taxpayer dollars, it accepts the conditions that come with it. As the Times reports, “Catholic Charities affiliates received a total of nearly $2.9 billion a year from the government in 2010, about 62 percent of its annual revenue of $4.67 billion. Only 3 percent came from churches in the diocese (the rest came from in-kind contributions, investments, program fees and community donations).”
A couple of other points:
– There is no evidence that children raised by same-sex parents are harmed by the experience. Quite the contrary. In other words, the church’s objection may be based on moral grounds in its eyes, but it cannot be justified in terms of policy or pragmatism.
– It’s a shame that Illinois church leaders decided that discriminating against gay couples was more important to them than continuing to provide much-needed services to orphans and neglected children. Catholic leaders in other parts of the country have made the opposite decision.
– Jay Bookman
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487 comments Add your comment
Real Scootter
December 29th, 2011
1:19 pm
Enter your comments here
Real Scootter
December 29th, 2011
1:19 pm
grin:
Logical Dude
December 29th, 2011
1:23 pm
So, they couldn’t continue without taxpayer funds? hmmmmm. . .
Bruno
December 29th, 2011
1:25 pm
There is no evidence that children raised by same-sex parents are harmed by the experience. Quite the contrary. In other words, the church’s objection may be based on moral grounds in its eyes, but it cannot be justified in terms of policy or pragmatism.
I’m not 100% sure of that, Jay, but fully support your larger point that if you are going to accept tax dollars, you have to play by the rules.
Since when did the Catholic Church start needing our tax money??
Common Sense isn't very Common
December 29th, 2011
1:27 pm
I wonder where Sanitorium and Newt stand on this issue?
stands for decibels
December 29th, 2011
1:27 pm
“Roman Catholic bishops in Illinois have shuttered most of the Catholic Charities affiliates in the state rather than comply with a new requirement that says they must consider same-sex couples as potential foster-care and adoptive parents if they want to receive state money.
well, they’re flaming a-holes, then.
Getting personal for just a moment, but I had firsthand experience with a Catholic church-based group in another state, that trained and assisted parents wanting to adopt. Their first official adoption (this was a somewhat lengthy process, and I was in the process while they were just getting under way) was to a gay couple.
That organization had no problem with same sex couples; I have no idea why these a-holes in Illinois do.
What a-holes. (Have I mentioned that they are a-holes? Because they are.)
Real Scootter
December 29th, 2011
1:27 pm
I don’t think the Gov. should be giving money to a church for ANY reason.After all they don’t pay any taxes.
Libertarian
December 29th, 2011
1:29 pm
“The church, using its own funds, would have every right to refuse to assist in gay adoptions. The First Amendment gives it that protection. But by accepting taxpayer dollars, it accepts the conditions that come with it.”
Totally agree Jay…but wouldn’t this also apply to planned parenthood’s ability to perform abortions or give out the morning after pill?
Adam
December 29th, 2011
1:29 pm
Roman Catholic bishops in Illinois have shuttered most of the Catholic Charities affiliates
Hmm, so much for being able to rely on charity instead of government when you are sick or poor!
TaxPayer
December 29th, 2011
1:30 pm
I thought charitable giving did not require the taking of taxpayer dollars. I learn something new every day about just what being charitable really means… to some.
stands for decibels
December 29th, 2011
1:31 pm
but wouldn’t this also apply to planned parenthood’s ability to perform abortions
Uncle Sam isn’t footing that bill.
Jay
December 29th, 2011
1:32 pm
Yes it would, Libertarian. Which is precisely why Planned Parenthood uses only its own funds for such services.
Welcome to the Occupation
December 29th, 2011
1:32 pm
In my opinion the Catholic Church should not whine about being the object of tolerance in this case. To hell with tolerance.
But at the same time, do we not do ourselves a disservice by refusing to acknowledge the difficulty that these new changes in societal norms represent for traditional institutions like the Catholic Church?
Ultimately it’s a good reason for eliminating any tax-payer funds at all going to religious institutions.
0311/1811
December 29th, 2011
1:32 pm
Jay:
Isn’t it in your opinion a violation of “church and state” principles for the Chatholic church to get those funds anyway ?
Libertarian
December 29th, 2011
1:33 pm
The underlying issue here is that the govt shouldn’t be giving money to a church or charity. We need to cut federal spending…here’s $2.9 billion we can cut.
godless heathen
December 29th, 2011
1:34 pm
“I don’t think the Gov. should be giving money to a church for ANY reason.After all they don’t pay any taxes.”
The Church is a pass thru. The Federal Government gives away so much money it has to have subcontractors to help.
Real Scootter
December 29th, 2011
1:34 pm
Hmm, so much for being able to rely on charity instead of government when you are sick or poor!
If the Gov. is supprting the charity wouldn’t it kinda be the same thing Adam?
Adam
December 29th, 2011
1:34 pm
Scout: Isn’t it in your opinion a violation of “church and state” principles for the Chatholic church to get those funds anyway ?
I would say it’s more of a “They shouldn’t” rather than “It’s unconstitutional.” That could just be me….
Libertarian
December 29th, 2011
1:36 pm
“Yes it would, Libertarian. Which is precisely why Planned Parenthood uses only its own funds for such services.”
Haha. I’m sure they keep their “abortion funds” in a different account from their “government funds.” So then, would it be ok for the catholic group to use the taxpayer money for gay adoptions and their own money for non-gay adoptions, in your opinion?
Adam
December 29th, 2011
1:36 pm
Real Scootter: If the Gov. is supprting the charity wouldn’t it kinda be the same thing Adam?
Ah, and thus we find that churches either have to not accept government funds at all to support the libertarian ideal of government not helping anybody.
But the point I was making was if the charities can’t stay open without government funding, then you can’t rely on them if you take all government funding away from assisting the poor or sick.
Normal
December 29th, 2011
1:37 pm
Wow! I really don’t know what to say about this. It is so dumb. All I can think of is “love God, hate religions”. Religions are an anchor to enlightenment.
Bruno
December 29th, 2011
1:37 pm
Hmm, so much for being able to rely on charity instead of government when you are sick or poor!
Adam–One important difference between public and private charity to me is the impostion of conditions. For example, the Salvation Army is happy to help you, but asks that you repay them later when you are able. Personally, I’m in favor of conditional charity. All you have to do is look at the generations of welfare families to realize that unconditional charity creates long-term problems.
Adam
December 29th, 2011
1:38 pm
Libertarian: So then, would it be ok for the catholic group to use the taxpayer money for gay adoptions and their own money for non-gay adoptions, in your opinion?
Sure. But then, they would not be saying “no gay adoptions.” Problem solved.
Real Scootter
December 29th, 2011
1:38 pm
The Church is a pass thru. The Federal Government gives away so much money it has to have subcontractors to help.
I’m not sure what you are saying godless.Could you please explain?
Adam
December 29th, 2011
1:39 pm
Bruno: For example, the Salvation Army is happy to help you, but asks that you repay them later when you are able.
Asks you or makes you? I am in favor of them asking, but not in favor of them enforcing it.
Adam
December 29th, 2011
1:40 pm
bbl folks
TimeForRealChange
December 29th, 2011
1:41 pm
I agree with Jay here. If an organization is getting federal funds, then they shouldn’t be able to discriminate like that.
However, as welfare programs have increased, charitable giving has decreased. And charities tend to do a much better job helping people than welfare. Maybe the answer to stop taking tax dollars just to hand them right back to people after the politicians have gotten their cut. Then the Catholics will get more private donations, and the gay and lesbian community can create their own charity to take private donations.
Or we can keep propping up a system that obviously isn’t working very well.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
1:42 pm
For example, the Salvation Army is happy to help you, but asks that you repay them later when you are able
Perhaps. You may also have to sit through some religion and other indoctrination before you get your assistance, paid for by government $$.
stands for decibels
December 29th, 2011
1:43 pm
as welfare programs have increased, charitable giving has decreased.
cite, please.
King Of All
December 29th, 2011
1:43 pm
They have a moral dilemma. Like if Nazi shows up at the door and they are hiding a Jew in the attic they are not going to lie.
Normal
December 29th, 2011
1:43 pm
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it with religious conviction. — Blaise Pascal
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
1:44 pm
All you have to do is look at the generations of welfare families to realize that unconditional charity creates long-term problems.
Wow, you can tell by just looking at them and not looking at underlying issues and the real facts and situations. I bet it was painted on their faces by the broad brush.
theyeshaveit
December 29th, 2011
1:44 pm
It is a conundrum. The Catholic Charities were doing good work, but…”But” is always a big word.
I would like to see religious organizations pay taxes, too. How many “reverends” are there out there getting a tax break while starting up “theology” schools?
Finally, has anyone tweeted Tim Tebow of late?
TaxPayer
December 29th, 2011
1:45 pm
So then, would it be ok for the catholic group to use the taxpayer money for gay adoptions and their own money for non-gay adoptions, in your opinion?
I don’t recall them offering to do that.
Real Scootter
December 29th, 2011
1:45 pm
Adam
December 29th, 2011
1:36 pm
I gotcha Adam.Thanks
Libertarian
December 29th, 2011
1:47 pm
TaxPayer
1:45 pm
I don’t either. But this is a discussion, no?
Normal
December 29th, 2011
1:48 pm
You can safely assume that you’ve created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. –Anne Lamott
Evangelical Christianity, as everyone knows, is founded upon hate, as the Christianity of Christ was founded upon love.– H. L. Mencken
theyeshaveit
December 29th, 2011
1:49 pm
as welfare programs have increased, charitable giving has decreased.
cite, please.
sfd,
It may well be that charitable giving is down, but I believe the reason is the state of the economy. Was it just me, or were those Salvation Army folks ringing the bells harder this Christmas?
Erwin's cat
December 29th, 2011
1:49 pm
Can this be considered a sort of gov’t regulation that the church wishes not to comply and therefore limits it’s own contribution in order to meet the regulation
Is this a church or gov’t issue….who’s the real villain here?
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
December 29th, 2011
1:50 pm
Well, we’re the majority and if we don’t like Gay Marriage we should be able to make sure gays don’t get any of our money. It don’t matter what courts say, They’re being Activist if they want churches to let Gay couples adopt kids.
But I’m in a bind here. I hate the Gays and the Catholics about the same. So maybe we should make the Catholic churches stop molesting kids before they can get any our our money for anything.
Anyhow, I feel better already now that I’ve let it all hang out. Sometimes you got to let your hatred loose on something before you can feel good.
Matti's Grasp of Reality
December 29th, 2011
1:52 pm
TAX THE CHURCHES!!!
theyeshaveit
December 29th, 2011
1:53 pm
Matti,
See my 1:44.
stands for decibels
December 29th, 2011
1:54 pm
Was it just me, or were those Salvation Army folks ringing the bells harder this Christmas?
answer might be here…
http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20111126/BUSINESS/311260078/Volunteer-bell-ringers-needed-Salvation-Army-reduces-paid-collectors-cites-effectiveness
lliberalefty
December 29th, 2011
1:55 pm
my oh my, religion being used to deny people equal rights,lol.
Thulsa Doom
December 29th, 2011
1:55 pm
“It’s a shame that Illinois church leaders decided that discriminating against gay couples was more important to them than continuing to provide much-needed services to orphans and neglected children.”
That’s a pretty judgemental statement. There are plenty of Christians that believe that homosexuality is a sin, “an abomination before God” as one scripture says. Doesn’t mean they hate gays. Just means they believe homosexuality goes squarely against biblical principles and that they won’t do anything that endorses homosexuality. That’s all.
josef
December 29th, 2011
1:56 pm
JAY
If this is your attempt to get me BACK in your corner, you’ve succeeded (not seceded!
)
This is a no-brainer. The religious institution is free to teach and practice what it deems fit and should have every governmental protection thereof. If and when they take government funds (which I think they shouldn’t simply from the expediency that it creates a conflict of interests), then they are bound by the government’s attached strings.
lliberalefty
December 29th, 2011
1:57 pm
REDNECK
kids get molested in baptist,methodists,AME, unitarian,Jehovah witnesses churches too.
St Simons - we're on Island time
December 29th, 2011
1:58 pm
THAT’s the way to show those orphans you reeeally care, conservatives.
lliberalefty
December 29th, 2011
1:59 pm
thulsa
they are discriminating against gays…
Matti's Grasp of Reality
December 29th, 2011
1:59 pm
Blah blah plenty of Christians blah blah homosexuality is a sin, blah blah “abomination before God” blah blah blah.
Well then, THOSE people should politely decline any invitation to engage their own bodies in such activity, and mind their own G.D. business! Just sayin’.
Normal
December 29th, 2011
2:00 pm
In religion and politics people’s beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing. – Mark Twain
Religion can never reform mankind because religion is slavery. –Robert Ingersoll
…and lastly,
Religion is the fashionable substitute for belief. – Oscar Wilde
TaxPayer
December 29th, 2011
2:01 pm
I don’t either. But this is a discussion, no?
Planned Parenthood did offer to use only their own funds for abortions and to not use tax dollars yet you ridicule them and then offer up a comparable option for the Catholic Church as though they were not allowed said option.
Thulsa Doom
December 29th, 2011
2:01 pm
“Wow, you can tell by just looking at them and not looking at underlying issues and the real facts and situations”
No. Actually you can read books and statistics on what damage the welfare state has done to generations of recipients. You can start with the book written by former liberal NY senator Patrick Moynihan on the destruction of the black family by the welfare state.
lliberalefty
December 29th, 2011
2:02 pm
has this invisible non speaking god ever personally told anybody that homosexuality ius a sin?
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
2:02 pm
It’s a shame that Illinois church leaders decided that discriminating against gay couples was more important to them than continuing to provide much-needed services to orphans and neglected children.
v
Doesn’t mean they hate gays. Just means they believe homosexuality goes squarely against biblical principles and that they won’t do anything that endorses homosexuality. That’s all.
Well since discrimination does not mean “hate”, seems someone is trying to make a point that has no meaningful distinction.
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
2:03 pm
“Planned Parenthood did offer to use only their own funds for abortions and to not use tax dollars ”
It wasn’t an offer. It’s a legal requirement. And my memory of it is that, yes, they DO keep the funds in separate accounts. It’s against Federal law to use taxpayer funds for abortions.
Real Scootter
December 29th, 2011
2:03 pm
Somehow I knew someone was going to make this a lib or con issue!
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
2:04 pm
You can start with the book written by former liberal NY senator Patrick Moynihan on the destruction of the black family by the welfare state.
Cause if its in a book, it’s gots to be true?
lliberalefty
December 29th, 2011
2:04 pm
thulsa
dont blame welfare for the decline of the black family. blame blacks themselves, not the guvment for their plight.
josef
December 29th, 2011
2:05 pm
BRUNO
“I’m not 100% sure of that,”
You may not be, but I know three who are.
lliberalefty
December 29th, 2011
2:05 pm
why dont god ever talk? cat got his tongue
AMusing
December 29th, 2011
2:07 pm
Religion appears to be the “science” for those that have no faith in reality.
Thulsa Doom
December 29th, 2011
2:07 pm
lliberalefty
December 29th, 2011
1:59 pm
thulsa
“they are discriminating against gays…”
That’s your opinion. In their view they are simply practicing their religion and in their views homosexuality is a sin. Neither you, nor me, nor josef or anyone else is going to change their minds on something they believe is very plainly written in the bible. It is what it is.
This is much ado about nothing. The state prohibits discrimination against gays. The catholic church and others who disagree with this can simply pull out or use their own dollars to support social causes. They just can’t use tax dollars as long as they are in violation of state law.
DannyX
December 29th, 2011
2:08 pm
I would like to see the official Catholic adoption guideline.
Do they help remarried divorced people adopt? Adulterers? Shrimp eaters? People who pray in public?
Would new Catholic Newt be able to adopt? Herman Cain?
Normal
December 29th, 2011
2:08 pm
Since it is accepted fact that you are born Gay, and if you accept the word that God made man in His image, is it not true that God is Gay?
Bottom line: God hasn’t said being Gay is a sin, only religion has said that…and the hate continues.
“Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is.” …
AmVet
December 29th, 2011
2:09 pm
has this invisible non speaking god ever personally told anybody that homosexuality ius a sin?
And what do you burn apart from witches?
Love those quotes, Normal.
Here are three from some junk-scientist…
I am a deeply religious nonbeliever – this is a somewhat new kind of religion. ~Albert Einstein
True religion is real living; living with all one’s soul, with all one’s goodness and righteousness. ~Albert Einstein
One strength of the communist system of the East is that it has some of the character of a religion and inspires the emotions of a religion. ~Albert Einstein
Real Scootter
December 29th, 2011
2:09 pm
why dont god ever talk? cat got his tongue
He does.Just not to you.
JKL2
December 29th, 2011
2:09 pm
stands- Uncle Sam isn’t footing that bill.
obamacare says,”What?” I guess you didn’t read that”wonderfuL” part of your law.
Thulsa Doom
December 29th, 2011
2:10 pm
Keep up,
Moynihan studied the subject extensively. He knows a little more about this than you or I. He warned about that the welfare state would destroy the black family in advance and later he was vindicated. If you think a nearly 70% out of welock birthrate in the black community today has nothing to do with the welfare state and the disincentive to be married to the father of your child or children then go ahead and stick your head right back in the sand. The evidence is clear.
St Simons - we're on Island time
December 29th, 2011
2:11 pm
Religious conservatives – Putting Your Money Where Their Mouth Is
so, how’s that Faith Based Initiative workin out for ya?
stands for decibels
December 29th, 2011
2:11 pm
You may not be, but I know three who are.
Josef, given that you’re something of a major historian…
Isn’t it reasonable to say that what constituted “homosexuality” as it would be understood by most at the time of the Biblical proscriptions against it, in both the Old Testament era and in the era of Paul’s epistles, bore scant resemblance to the loving, committed same-sex couples of today who wish to raise families through adoption?
That the homosexuality being condemned was more like child abuse and/or simple prostitution, and generally coercive at best?
Quagmire
December 29th, 2011
2:11 pm
Leave me out of this………………….Eddie Long
TaxPayer
December 29th, 2011
2:11 pm
I would prefer to read books on the destruction of the white family by the welfare state (if I were inclined to read books about the welfare state and it destructive power over people). It seems to be the more relevent problem up here in North Georgia.
Curtis Rivers
December 29th, 2011
2:11 pm
Good article, Jay. I agree with your position.
getalife
December 29th, 2011
2:12 pm
They should worry about their child rapist problem.
I want to see willard’s tax forms.
I guess they will call us taxers.
stands for decibels
December 29th, 2011
2:12 pm
obamacare says,”What?” I guess you didn’t read that”wonderfuL” part of your law.
WTF are you on about?
Where, pray tell, does the ACA provide funding for elective abortion?
lliberalefty
December 29th, 2011
2:13 pm
real scooter
gee, i’ve never heard that comeback before, smh. and i guess he talks to you,huh? well i know you’re going to say,”yes”, so heres my request to you. the next time this god “talks” to you please make a recording so the world can hear this “mighty” god..
Thulsa Doom
December 29th, 2011
2:13 pm
Keep up, Was Frederick Douglass a great advocate of the welfare state?
Everybody has asked the question. . .”What shall we do with the Negro?” I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us. Do nothing with us! If the apples will not remain on the tree of their own strength, if they are wormeaten at the core, if they are early ripe and disposed to fall, let them fall! I am not for tying or fastening them on the tree in any way, except by nature’s plan, and if they will not stay there, let them fall. And if the Negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall also. All I ask is, give him a chance to stand on his own legs! Let him alone!
–Frederick Douglass16
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
2:13 pm
“That the homosexuality being condemned was more like child abuse and/or simple prostitution, and generally coercive at best?”
That might be an element of it, but the main basis was that in Roman society of the time homosexual relationships had a main component of power to them. Something along the lines of “do NOT do as the Romans do”
josef
December 29th, 2011
2:14 pm
lliberalefty
December 29th, 2011
2:05 pm
why dont god ever talk? cat got his tongue
Reckon maybe it could be you’re not listening?
TGT
December 29th, 2011
2:15 pm
It’s a shame that Illinois church leaders decided that discriminating against gay couples was more important to them than continuing to provide much-needed services to orphans and neglected children.
It’s a shame that a handful of states have chosen to redefine marriage thus endorsing the dangerous (and what many deem sinful) behavior of a very small minority. And yes, there is plenty of evidence that shows the dangers of homosexual behavior, and plenty of evidence that shows children are best off being raised by a mother and a father.
Finn McCool
December 29th, 2011
2:15 pm
Dang Brazilians playing hardball. Wish our government had that fortitude:
Following an oil spill last month in Brazil – Brazilian prosecutors are going after the President of Chevron – charging him with crimes that could lead to jail time and banning Chevron from the country.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/industries/brazil-slaps-chevron-corp-with-54-million-fine-for-oil-leak/2011/12/24/gIQAtaicFP_story.html
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
2:16 pm
“plenty of evidence that shows children are best off being raised by a mother and a father”
Are we to take it, then, that you would be against single-parent adoptions as well?
Ayn Rant
December 29th, 2011
2:17 pm
The Church’s stance on the matter is pure prejudice and discrimination. It is not even justified by the Church’s nonsensical religious dogma against homosexuality, masturbation, divorce, sex before marriage, contraception, abortion, etc.
By what perverted logic does the Church oppose adoption by homosexuals if it does not oppose adoption by persons who have been divorced, used contraceptives, masturbated, or engaged in pre-marital sex?
The American bishops of the Roman Catholic Church should distance themselves from the un-American, un-Christian, and outdated prejudices of a bunch of elderly, out-of-touch, celibates in Rome.
lliberalefty
December 29th, 2011
2:17 pm
thulsa
DOUGLAS also wanted an end to lynching,jim crow laws too. but in an unequal society government has to step in to help the less fortunate.
AmVet
December 29th, 2011
2:18 pm
why dont god ever talk? cat got his tongue
Nearly everyone I know claims to have heard your voice
And every time they do, I know I should rejoice
Because one day I’m sure you’ll break your silence
And speak just to me
But I feel like time’s running out
And my heart, my heart is filling with doubt
And god said
I don’t dwell upon you, I dwell on something else
And I am not really here so get over your self
You are not serving me, you’re serving something else
Cause I don’t need to be pleased, just get over yourself
You can’t suck up to me, I know you all too well
But I don’t dwell upon you, so get over yourself
Cause you’re not praying to me, you’re praying to yourself
And you’re not worshiping me you’re worshiping yourself
And you will kill in my name and heaven knows what else
When you can’t prove I exist so get over yourself
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Djc6dldCk3U
Real Scootter
December 29th, 2011
2:18 pm
lliberalefty
December 29th, 2011
2:13 pm
He don’t talk to me either! He only talks to those high dollar preachers on tv.
lliberalefty
December 29th, 2011
2:19 pm
josef
if this so called almighty god spoke to me why cant i hear him?
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
2:19 pm
“outdated prejudices of a bunch of elderly, out-of-touch, celibates in Rome.”
Ummm, did you miss this: “Catholic leaders in other parts of the country have made the opposite decision. “
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
2:20 pm
Doom, you quote speeches as “evidence” and summarize a book as “evidence”. Does not work. If the author of a book has empirical evidence to prove a point, you should be able to cite it. Don’t really care if you claim someone has studied the subject more than someone else if the claim does not have the evidence to support.
godless heathen
December 29th, 2011
2:20 pm
“I’m not sure what you are saying godless.Could you please explain?”
The government gives the money to the Church to distribute. It’s not charitable contributions. The government took it at the point of a gun, therefore the government says who gets the money. The Church is a subcontractor to pass out the largess.
lliberalefty
December 29th, 2011
2:21 pm
scooter
leave EDDIE LONG out of this!
Normal
December 29th, 2011
2:21 pm
Real Scooter,
He talked to G. W. Bush once…and told him to invade Iraq…go figure
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
2:21 pm
“if this so called almighty god spoke to me why cant i hear him?”
As has already been said: maybe he is, but you aren’t listening
josef
December 29th, 2011
2:22 pm
SFD
Put within the context of time and place, these proscriptions have less to do with homosexuality per se than they do with 1) procreation and 2) heathen religious practices. In the first case, if you go and read you will see it listed with a whole range of don’t dos relative to procreation. In the second case there was the practice of sex as part of religious ceremony, homosexuality being on of many acts, deemed outside the acceptable Judeo-Christian.
As with much of socio-religious doctrine, it reflects our understanding of “things,” whatever they might be, in time and place.
lliberalefty
December 29th, 2011
2:23 pm
doggone
or maybe there is no god. after all theres no evidence of this invisible ghost..u have no evidence of his existence, just a belief,.
lliberalefty
December 29th, 2011
2:25 pm
i wish BARACK HUSEIN OBAMA was an atheist. we’ve had enough phony christians in the whitehouse. DUBYA prayed and god told him to butcher IRAQI’s.
TaxPayer
December 29th, 2011
2:25 pm
if this so called almighty god spoke to me why cant i hear him?
Keep turning the dial until you pick up FAITH-750 AM or one of the many others available. It’s about the only thing we get over the air waves up here in North Georgia.
Broken Pope
December 29th, 2011
2:25 pm
I guess it’s time to burn the Bibles and the Koran and have a new liberal guide omitting any of those books standards and commandments that libs deem unacceptable. After all, this has gone from a church/state conflict blog to hate blog. It would be kinda funny though if there was a God and that was his written word because you pro homosexuality lifestyle folks would be screwed!
lliberalefty
December 29th, 2011
2:26 pm
I MEANT “HUSSEIN”
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
2:27 pm
“or maybe there is no god”
Yes, maybe there isn’t…but then why ask why he’s not talking to you if he doesn’t exist?
Marco Luxe
December 29th, 2011
2:27 pm
When this happened in Massachusetts, the bishop ordered Catholic Charities to close its century-old adoption program, causing half the board of directors to resign in protest. In contrast to the bishop, the board wanted to place the welfare of children in need before Vatican dogma. Why don’t these princes of the church ask WWJD? To everyone else, the answer seems so easy.
lliberalefty
December 29th, 2011
2:27 pm
doggone
if youre invisible god is real does that mean the muslims invisible god is real too?
Dusty
December 29th, 2011
2:28 pm
Well, here we go again. To hell with the children and the helpless that are being ASSISTED by churches and other charitable groups. Tax em! Run ‘em down! The are REPUBLICANS!!
Nothing so ignorant as people who never attend churches/religious facilites but know ALL ABOUT THEM.
Children services, adoptions, etc. are sidelines to the main body of church life. They are added to help more people. The states have found that their services are better run than government agencies and are glad to get their help and subsidize them to get wider results.
I am sure the Catholic church has guidelines for adoption as do all agencies.. No matter the sexual orientation or anything else, some couples are not suited to raise children.
The fine line here is how much power should the government have over religious facilites versus the question of taking government funds (and control) to support the good outreach of legitimate religious efforts
I say let each case be judged and settled. That is why we have the justice system. It is not settled in a newspaper blog set up to disagree with any religious effort.
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
2:28 pm
“if youre invisible god is real does that mean the muslims invisible god is real too?”
Would have to be, he’s the same God
lliberalefty
December 29th, 2011
2:29 pm
doggone
peace my brother, i gotta go
Welcome to the Occupation
December 29th, 2011
2:30 pm
TGT: “plenty of evidence that shows children are best off being raised by a mother and a father”
Why do you insist on defining ‘mother’ and ‘father’ in strictly biological terms?
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
2:30 pm
“I am sure the Catholic church has guidelines for adoption as do all agencies”
And so does the state. If the charities are taking the state’s money, they are agreeing to abide by the conditions placed on using that money per state guidelines. No one is forcing them to take the money.
TGT
December 29th, 2011
2:30 pm
The dangers of gay adoption: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ro89nDn84ZQ
Quagmire
December 29th, 2011
2:31 pm
If the state doesn’t give me, I mean doesn’t give the Church that tax money. How can I supplement my income since people started leaving my Church………………………………………Eddie Long
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
2:31 pm
And Dusty rants but apparently without much comprehension about the original piece and the action of the Church……
No surprises there.
josef
December 29th, 2011
2:32 pm
lefty, norm and other snipers…
If you accept the concept of a personal G-d, which I do, whether or not yours speaks to you is no affair of mine. My “conversations” with G-d are personal and private and between us. Does G-d talk to me? On a daily basis. Do I talk to G-d? On a daily basis.
And I don’t trust anybody who says G-d told them this or that. That’s just a violation of professional confidentiality, imo.
AmVet
December 29th, 2011
2:33 pm
To reiterate George Carlin’s rhetorical question, why is god so bad with money?
His most ardent zealots constantly insist that he always needs more. And more. And more.
LOL.
The greatest, tax free Ponzi scheme ever invented…
DannyX
December 29th, 2011
2:33 pm
“It would be kinda funny though if there was a God and that was his written word because you pro homosexuality lifestyle folks would be screwed!”
So would all the divorced people!
Divorce is a CHOICE!
SwamiDave
December 29th, 2011
2:34 pm
The unfortunate thing is that kowtowing to a vocal, political minority is impeding services to those children in need. A better result would have been for Catholic Charities to be celebrated for what they do; not villified because their principles happened to be different than those you happen to support.
The fault surely doesn’t lie with those serving, but those unwilling to accept it.
Likewise, because no one has shown evidence of damage to children raised by gay couples could mean there is none or we simply haven’t quantified it.
-SD
TGT
December 29th, 2011
2:35 pm
The dangers ofsame-sex couples adopting: http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=1504
It’s akin to some church or social agency taking state money to run soup kitchens to feed the poor, but demanding the right to deny aid to black people or Hispanics.
Not it’s not, and that is an insult to blacks and Hispanics everywhere, as well as sound science. Homosexual behavior is NOT genetic and unchangeable. It is an outright lie to say otherwise.
Real Scootter
December 29th, 2011
2:36 pm
He talked to G. W. Bush once…and told him to invade Iraq…go figure
Now I understand why we went over there Normal.NOT!!!! And,good afternoon sir.
TGT
December 29th, 2011
2:36 pm
I mean “No it’s not…”
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
2:36 pm
” A better result would have been for Catholic Charities to be celebrated for what they do; not villified because their principles happened to be different than those you happen to support.”
They accepted money with requirements attached. If those requirements conflicted with conception of morality THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE TAKEN THE MONEY.
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
2:37 pm
“Homosexual behavior is NOT genetic and unchangeable”
And OF COURSE, you have proof of that…right?
ragnar danneskjold
December 29th, 2011
2:38 pm
“nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof” – sounds like Illinois has an equal protection problem to me. It has magnified homosexuality to the level of a state protected rite – isn’t that a clever pun? – to the detriment of a traditional religion. But then, nothing rational has come out of Illinois in the past 50 years, has it?
Darvoset spending
December 29th, 2011
2:39 pm
If you don’t like homosexuality, blame straight people. They’re the ones who keep having gay babies.
godless heathen
December 29th, 2011
2:39 pm
How many of you believers believe in the multiple Gods of the Greeks?
None?
Well, I just believe in one less than you?
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
2:39 pm
“to the detriment of a traditional religion”
It has nothing to do with religion. Those charities were state contractors. Contracted to provide state services. If they did not feel they could provide those services in accord with state requirments they should not have joined in the contract.
josef
December 29th, 2011
2:39 pm
SD
And I’ll say to you what I said to Bruno…I know three who’ll be glad to tell you about “damage…”
And you tent revivalist anti-religious zealots…
Do you ever listen to yourselves…mean, hateful, spiteful and damnatory…just like the ones your railing against. You don’t want tolerance, you want your own view to be the only view…hypocrites is what I’d call you if we’re going to degenerate into drive by, not-very-original sniping…
Normal
December 29th, 2011
2:40 pm
Liberalefty,
As you might have noticed, I’m not very big on religion, but I do believe in God. My stand has been you don’t need religion to worship God..
But I believe because, for me, there is enough evidence out there to confirm His existance. I don’t believe in Genesis, but I do see a wonderfully natural progression of evolution that is quite mathematical, leaving me with a sense that our being us has been guided.
But somtimes I feel(when grumpy) that God is like a kid who made model ships (and think of the ships as earth) He made (created) them, put them on a shelf to collect dust(thus evolve, in a sense) while He made another. Then after a period of time, He would take that original model ship from the shelf, float it on the pond and shoot the hell out of it with His BB gun(the end time). Simple logic…
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
2:42 pm
“(the end time)”
Well, you always have the choice to do as I do, and not believe in the end time.
DannyX
December 29th, 2011
2:42 pm
“Homosexual behavior is NOT genetic and unchangeable. It is an outright lie to say otherwise.”
Exactly! To prove it join us on “National Prove Its A Choice Day” on Jan.15th 2012. We will all change our sexual orientations on that day only, to prove once and for all that being gay is a choice. Don’t worry, on the 16th you just switch back to being straight. Can we count you in TGT?
ragnar danneskjold
December 29th, 2011
2:42 pm
Dear Doggone @ 2:39, happy new year. You are surely the first person in the history of the world to affirm that a Catholic mission has nothing to do with religion.
Real Scootter
December 29th, 2011
2:44 pm
His most ardent zealots constantly insist that he always needs more
Well they do share it with him AmVet! They throw the money in the air and what god grabs is his and what hits the floor is theirs.
ragnar danneskjold
December 29th, 2011
2:44 pm
I can understand the view of Illinois – if they allowed the churches to practice their beliefs, fewer children might wind up in prisons. And then who would need the government?
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
2:44 pm
“You are surely the first person in the history of the world to affirm that a Catholic mission has nothing to do with religion.”
Nope, too bad reading comprehension is not your strong suit. If it was, you’d have understood that it is the ISSUE that has nothing to do with religion.
Welcome to the Occupation
December 29th, 2011
2:44 pm
TGT: “Homosexual behavior is NOT genetic and unchangeable”
I agree that homosexuality is probably not genetic (or not entirely), though once it’s determined in early life I doubt it can be changed.
What I propose is UNLIMITED rights for gays and lesbians EVEN THOUGH it’s not genetic. It’s a choice and it should be supported just like the “CHOICE” many of us make for heterosexuality.
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
2:45 pm
“Can we count you in TGT?”
Or, simpler yet…TGT, just tell us when YOU made the decision to be heterosexual
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
2:46 pm
“if they allowed the churches to practice their beliefs”
And exactly when did Illinois STOP the churches from practicing their beliefs?
TGT
December 29th, 2011
2:46 pm
Yes Doggone, and I have posted such evidence here plenty of times before, but here I go again:
Dr. Jeffrey Satinover a graduate of M.I.T., Harvard, Yale, and the University of Texas Medical School; a practicing psychiatrist; conductor of research at the University of Nice; etc., has concluded that the idea of “sexual orientation” is fiction. He refers to a 1994 University of Chicago study which states, “…it is patently false that homosexuality is a uniform attribute across individuals, that it is stable over time, and that it can be easily measured.” Dr. Satinover adds that, “Studies across the globe that have now sampled over 100,000 individuals have found the same. We now know that in the majority of both men and women, ‘homosexuality,’ as defined by any scientifically rigorous criteria, spontaneously tends to ‘mutate’ into heterosexuality over the course of a lifetime.”
These facts support the idea of many that, homosexuality is–in a sense–chosen behavior; something that individuals have control over and can change if so desired. This idea is further supported by the fact that there are, of course, many people who have come out of the homosexual lifestyle. Dr Satinover continues that, homosexuals are “human beings, no different than you or me, who are, of course, sexual beings. Like you and me, their sexuality is broken in a broken world. The notion that ‘homosexuals’ are in effect a ‘different species’ (different genes) is ludicrous beyond belief. There is not the slightest evidence for that as anyone who actually reads the studies (not reports on the studies) knows.”
getalife
December 29th, 2011
2:47 pm
The video of Ben describing cheating death is very good.
It is peaceful but did not see that bright light.
You are at peace now Ben.
He was only 18.
TGT
December 29th, 2011
2:51 pm
Out for awhile. I’ll be back.
Venga
December 29th, 2011
2:52 pm
Unfortunately, the Catholic Church contrives these controversies as part of its political strategy to oppose marriage equality. Why, one might ask, have civil unions created a church-state confrontation in IL, but not in WA, CA, OR, HI, DE, NJ, RI, or NV? In Washington DC, the city had civil unions for some years and it caused no conflict with Catholic Charities. When the city upgraded from civil unions to marriage equality, suddenly Catholic Charities proclaimed a crisis. The crisis arises only when CC thinks it might be useful to score political points.
What contrived rubbish. There is no issue here. If Catholic Charities wants to act as a contractor fulfilling a government program with public money, it has to follow the same rules as everyone else. If it wants to do adoption services on its own using its own money – which is what “charity” is supposed to mean anyway – then it is free to tell gay couples to hit the road.
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
2:53 pm
““Studies across the globe that have now sampled over 100,000 individuals have found the same”
What studies? Someone’s conclusion from undocumented studies is not proof.
Dusty
December 29th, 2011
2:55 pm
One more time–today’s correction. Bush did not say that God told him to make war on Iraq.
Bush was using a tem picked up from Biblical literature about gog & magog which is a reference to picture any terrible chaotic time. Bush described the Middle East at that time in just such terms.
It was no more “God told him” than someone who names Cain, God, Lord, Lawdy or any other religious derived statement in conversation.
Can’t you people ever get any of your propaganda correct?
Normal
December 29th, 2011
2:55 pm
Josef,
You know me better than most here and you know I don’t snipe. As far as Christian religion goes, I hit it with a full frontal assault. There has been no bigger scam ever perputrated on man than Christianity.
But my studies have led me to a belief in “God”….and also a belief that only one “Religion” in this world has the right to exist. When a people and a belief are combined into one identity, with one God, then they, and only they, have that right. Israel has, throughout it’s history, had that honor and has suffered for it. The Jewish religion is one, and the only one, that you have to be born into. Sure, a Gentile can convert, but he will never be truly Jewish. It took me a long time to comprehend that.
The Jewish Faith is the one true “religion”, and the rest are just cults with political power.
josef
December 29th, 2011
2:55 pm
To the “it’s a choice” people
Yeah, I woke up one morning and said let me see what I can do to bring out the hateful pious people of the world to make my life as difficult as possible. I may be Jewish and have a Catholic education, but combined they didn’t put that kind of martyrdom in me…
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
2:56 pm
And, BTW, I don’t happen to think that beind gay has a single root cause. I think it can be genetic, or psychological, or congenital…or any combination of those
Adam
December 29th, 2011
2:57 pm
plenty of evidence that shows children are best off being raised by a mother and a father
Nuclear family, as in two parents. Could be same gender. NOT “mother and father.”
David Granger
December 29th, 2011
2:57 pm
“The church, using its own funds, would have every right to refuse to assist in gay adoptions. The First Amendment gives it that protection. But by accepting taxpayer dollars, it accepts the conditions that come with it.”
Excellent point, Jay…and completely correct.
“It’s akin to some church or social agency taking state money to run soup kitchens to feed the poor, but demanding the right to deny aid to black people or Hispanics.”
Another valid point. You could also add…it’s akin to a university or college accepting state/federal money but demanding the right to discriminate in their admission policies to achieve the right mix of racial and ethnic “diversity”. (Although, for some curious reason…though the Civil Rights Act of 1964 specifically states that this is unconstitutional…the courts have allowed it to occur.) Guess some are a little “more equal” than others.
Adam
December 29th, 2011
2:59 pm
josef: “Modern Languages” sounds rather vague and useless to me. Unless you are actually studying and learning 3-5 major world languages.
St Simons - we're on Island time
December 29th, 2011
3:00 pm
cmon religious conservatives, pep talk, huddle up.
Would Tim Tebow stomp his feet & not help the orphans
in the Phillipines just because he got no free gubmint monay? NO!
Would the Timmy of Tebow be deterred from giving a parent-less child
a home with parents? NO!
What would Tebow Do? You see, of all the many conservatives running
around in blue & orange costumes & funny hats, tossing balls around to
the amusement of circus-goers, Tim Tebow is the only one doing that
as part of his REAL JOB.
Now get out there and quit bein a hypocrite! GRrrrrrrr!
Tebow/Jesus 2012
Matthew 6:5
Adam
December 29th, 2011
3:03 pm
Basically, yes, as one other poster alluded to: If being gay is a choice, you can prove it by “becoming” gay for a day. Just try it out and see if you like it. Obviously, since it’s a choice, this should be no problem and you can decide for yourself if it has an appeal. Oh, and just dressing in drag doesn’t count. You have to go have gay sex. Come on, it’s ONLY a choice….
josef
December 29th, 2011
3:03 pm
Norm
You know me and you know how I feel about these things. Yes, you do snipe. You say mean and hateful things about Christians and it’s done with malice and malintent.
Christianity is but one search for meaning and understanding, no better nor any worse than any other. They are all deserving of respect and they are all deserving of criticism. I’ve been privileged (blessed) to have know men and women of good will from many faiths and lack thereof. I’ve known many of their adherents who are anything but.
You can reject an idea, theology, philosophy, etc. without being mean and hateful.
Welcome to the Occupation
December 29th, 2011
3:04 pm
josef: “Yeah, I woke up one morning and said let me see what I can do to bring out the hateful pious people of the world to make my life as difficult as possible”
I disagree with that logic, josef. People make all sorts of decisions that bring them great difficulty. Call me a Freudian here: I believe that we are ALL bisexual at a deep, fundamental level. “Normal” heterosexuality is just an add-on, an encrustration if you will. Sort of like other aspects of my personality that I take to be natural (e.g. being introverted, etc.) but which are not entirely formed in the womb.
As I mentioned above, the choice vs genetically determined debate is a trap. What we need to do is forcefully argue that the whole distinction is a sham and that gay rights need to asserted and guaranteed EVEN AS A CHOICE.
That’s the harder battle, but in the long run it’s the right one.
Dusty
December 29th, 2011
3:04 pm
The Catholic Church does recognize married people who want to be separated legally. It is called annulment. There is an office in Atlanta run by the Catholic church for Catholics who no longer wish to be married. That church does make changes which some of you have not noticed.
Normal
December 29th, 2011
3:08 pm
Need I say more?
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/vcy-america-urges-churches-train-children-fight-sodom-and-gomorrah-lifestyle
josef
December 29th, 2011
3:08 pm
ADAM
In my case it’s Romance, Germanic and Slavic as the concentration, with others as supplementary.
and being gay for a day…
Why do that when you can get the goodies and then go home to wife and kiddies and be a fine upstanding member of the community?
Lot of that going around…
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
3:10 pm
“The Catholic Church does recognize married people who want to be separated legally. It is called annulment”
First of all, an anulment is not a legal action. And secondly, an anulment is setting the record as if the marriage had never occured. It is not the church equivilent of a separation.
Thulsa Doom
December 29th, 2011
3:10 pm
keep up,
Plenty of reading here to back up my assertion. And some very poignant statistics. Educate yourself.
http://city-journal.org/html/15_3_black_family.html
TaxPayer
December 29th, 2011
3:12 pm
The non-mean-and-hateful thing for them Catholics to have done would have been to take them tax dollars and forward them on to a subcontractor that lacked their bias so those children in need of parents would not suffer at the hands of the church.
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
3:13 pm
“The non-mean-and-hateful thing for them Catholics to have done would have been to take them tax dollars and forward them on to a subcontractor ”
Or they could have just refused the connection to the “immoral” requirements and let the state find a more willing contractor.
AmVet
December 29th, 2011
3:14 pm
George’s bush was burning and he mistook it for god’s voice.
Normal
December 29th, 2011
3:15 pm
Josef,
I deny being mean and hateful…I’d call it ardent…and truthful. If, sometimes the truth hurts, then so be it.
I don’t call out the believer, I call out the belief and tell the believer to open their eyes a little bit. If they continue to believe that “stuff”, then who am I to deny them. I am the bringer of truth.
All I am really trying to say is that you don’t need religion to worship.
Thulsa Doom
December 29th, 2011
3:16 pm
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
2:39 pm
“It has nothing to do with religion. Those charities were state contractors”
Ragnar was right. Doggone you are indeed the first and only person in the world who thinks the Catholic religion has nothing to do with Catholic charities.
Quagmire
December 29th, 2011
3:16 pm
Slow day Jay, I will be back tomorrow when you have some good stuff
Welcome to the Occupation
December 29th, 2011
3:16 pm
Adam: “Obviously, since it’s a choice, this should be no problem and you can decide for yourself if it has an appeal. Oh, and just dressing in drag doesn’t count. You have to go have gay sex. Come on, it’s ONLY a choice….”
I just disagree (see 3:04). The problem here lies in our notion of choice. There is a vast range of things that we ‘choose’, but which aren’t the types of trivial or sudden choices like whether to eat a chicken sandwich or hamburger for lunch today. Sexuality comes under those ‘choices’ that are semi-unconscious or primal — those choices that choose you, so to speak, as much as you choose them, though for all that remain a choice all the same. The ‘choice’ of personality type is another similar example. I don’t sit down one day and decide I’m going to be an introvert or an extrovert. But nonetheless which of those things I become grows out of an intermingling of my own actions and external environmental factors early in my life.
I have a cousin who was taken advantage of by an older man at camp during adolescence. He once confided to me that he felt it was that early experience, the fact that it was with a man, that consolidated his sexual identity as gay. Not that I think that’s the normal case — I’m sure in many many cases the ‘decision’ is made much earlier in life, even early childhood, and in most cases probably does not involve any abuse.
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
3:17 pm
“All I am really trying to say is that you don’t need religion to worship”
But some people do. Just because you don’t, doesn’t mean NO ONE does.
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
3:17 pm
“Doggone you are indeed the first and only person in the world who thinks the Catholic religion has nothing to do with Catholic charities.”
I see that you, too, are deficient in reading comprehension.
Adam
December 29th, 2011
3:19 pm
WTTO: Call me a Freudian here: I believe that we are ALL bisexual at a deep, fundamental level. “Normal” heterosexuality is just an add-on, an encrustration if you will.
I am pretty sure a lot of straight religious people believe that everyone is straight and that bisexual and homosexual is just an add-on. Personally, I’m going with Kinsey on whether one can be straight, homosexual, or bisexual.
Normal
December 29th, 2011
3:20 pm
Josef,
Looking back on my posts, I still don’t see anything mean and hateful, but I respect you and call you a friend, so I apologize to you. I am sorry I have offended you.
Normal
December 29th, 2011
3:23 pm
Doggone,
I have found that many people find religion but few find God. They just stop at religion and take a stranger’s word for it.
josef
December 29th, 2011
3:23 pm
occupation
Of course I was being sarcastic.
“I believe that we are ALL bisexual at a deep, fundamental level”
I agree with that entirely. That’s why I don’t get really bent out of shape in the argument one way or the other. I’m sort of like Lilly Tomlin, and I paraphrase, when asked how she “got that way.” “You know, I’ve been asked that so much I’ve actually begun to think about it myself…”
Back when the early studies on the genetics of it were coming out, one of my girlfriends said, “oh, good! We’re birth defects. Where do I go sign up for my March of Dimes money?”
I can only speak from my own experience here, but I cannot recall a time in my life when I didn’t know. It’s just another part of who I am in my totality. Maybe genetic since two lines of my family do seem to have more than their “fair share” and of the nine of us kids, two are gay. That could be laid to environment, but ours in one of those way back family trees and from the 800s forward, we’ve had them spectacular enough to make the history books! Who knows?
Dusty
December 29th, 2011
3:24 pm
Doggone,
You can furnish all the explanations you want as to what the Catholic church is doing but married couples are separating..
I have a close friend who works in the Atlanta Synod office with a large staff from priests to clericals who work on annulments.. Those who qualify for an annulment are free to marry again I imagine they have to have a marriage license if they do. I don’t believe they could get a license if the annulment were not legal.
I’m not a Catholic so my information is second hand.
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
3:25 pm
“I have found that many people find religion but few find God. They just stop at religion and take a stranger’s word for it”
Yes, of course. That is always the danger with people who need rules to function.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
3:27 pm
Great work Thelma…… you cite an opinion article that recaps a lot of the dispute with Moynihan with little of it having to do with “welfare” and more to do with claims regarding single mothers and reaches a conclusion that “in the ghetto there is a growing feeling that mother-only families don’t work”. Perhaps you need to re-educate yourself as to what it means to provide actual proof of your assertion/proposition that “the welfare state would destroy the black family in advance and he was later vindicated” and the original claim that “all you have to do is look at generations of welfare families to realize that unconditional charity creates long-term problems.” You can of course post actual proof and not disputed opinion.
josef
December 29th, 2011
3:28 pm
normal
I am not offended per se. You say you don’t the believer but the belief. Think about that. If you have someone who adhers to a belief to the point that is a personal identification marker, what else would you call it. Just go back and put in the word “liberal” and then look at the attacks thereon and how much you take personal umbrage when someone comes in attacking the belief and but not the believer. It’s like Del calling for the eradication of liberals, “but not you, Josef.” It doesn’t pass the smell test, but that’s just my opinion.
AmVet
December 29th, 2011
3:28 pm
Normal, in my book, you are one righteous dude…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLy9U8gPKT0&feature=related
Welcome to the Occupation
December 29th, 2011
3:29 pm
Adam, would like to respond but have to run out. Will reply later. Ditto josef.
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
3:30 pm
“I don’t believe they could get a license if the annulment were not legal. ”
You need to dig into it deeper. If a couple ONLY gets a church anulment they are still legally married. They would have to ALSO get divorced.
If they get divorced, but don’t get an anulment they can legally marry again..but the church will not recognize their new marriage and they can’t be married BY the Catholic church.
Erwin's cat
December 29th, 2011
3:30 pm
Dusty you still need to get a divorce (legal)…usually the annulment (religion) comes after the fact….You can get a divorce and not an annulment and remarry, just not in the Catholic church…the Catholic church will only remarry you if you get an annulment…asking for annulment does not guarantee an annulment will be granted either…LOL checks must be written
josef
December 29th, 2011
3:31 pm
Doggone
@ 3:25
You took the words right out of my mouth…
Dusty
December 29th, 2011
3:33 pm
Wrong again, Normal. Christians find their churches a special place to worship God in peace.and joy with others. They are inspired to love one another (meaning all people) and they go out to do their best in the world.
You may call it “just religion’” but it is more than that. But one thing is true, no one should be “forced” into the love of Christian faith. It is offered as a gift. I’m sorry you see it as a burden.
josef
December 29th, 2011
3:33 pm
ZamVet
“Normal, in my book, you are one righteous dude…”
Well, like you, at least self-rightous. And what gives me the perogative to say that? A lifelong member of that club myself…
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
3:34 pm
Forgot to add, but I do thank you for the effort to support the assertion.
Normal
December 29th, 2011
3:35 pm
Josef,
“Just go back and put in the word “liberal” and then look at the attacks thereon…”
Unless it’s against my family, I never take anything a persons says to me or about me. I was born with a deformity…I have no ego.
and as to Liberals, I poke fun at myself there, too…I posted this earlier…
“A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel.” .
josef
December 29th, 2011
3:36 pm
ERWIN’S CAT
@ 3:30
Either that or a Tiffany’s card…
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
3:37 pm
“You took the words right out of my mouth…”
It’s like the whole “idolatry” issue. Some people need a tangible object to focus on, and that’s fine…as long as they know the object is only a representation of that to which they are devoted. It’s when they the object itself is what they worship that they enter the realm of idolatry.
Erwin's cat
December 29th, 2011
3:37 pm
That is always the danger with people who need rules to function.
We as a society and species can not function w/o “rules”…be it moral, scientific, etc..no one can escape it at least no one has so far
AmVet
December 29th, 2011
3:37 pm
josef, as I often taught my son during his formative years, “Son be patient with people. Not everyone can be as charming, handsome and intelligent as you and I.”
Dusty
December 29th, 2011
3:37 pm
Probably you are right, Doggone. I only hear about the annulment part. I will have to ask more questions from Catholic friends.
St Simons - we're on Island time
December 29th, 2011
3:38 pm
On the other hand, I have a new respect for the conservative bloggers
here. I don’t see any of the respected ones defending this abhorrent
behavior of the Illinois Catholics, which is something, i guess.
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
3:38 pm
“We as a society and species can not function w/o “rules”…be it moral, scientific, etc..no one can escape it at least no one has so far”
Ok, I saw that objection myself. Let me amend it to this: That is always the danger with people who blindly follow rules and never question them
Normal
December 29th, 2011
3:38 pm
Dusty,
As I said above, you have the right to believe what you want to believe and I support that.
josef
December 29th, 2011
3:39 pm
Normal
I do, of course, give you loads of credit for poking at yourself, one of the reasons I like you so much. And, yes, you do have a pretty tough hide. And, just between the two of us here, we probably should have had this conversation elsewhere…
Erwin's cat
December 29th, 2011
3:40 pm
Fair enough Doggone
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
3:40 pm
“I only hear about the annulment part. I will have to ask more questions from Catholic friends”
You don’t even need to do that. Take a line through Newt Gingrich. He has been married 3 times, and divorced twice. His third marriage is legal, but because his wife is Catholic, in order to have their marriage ALSO recognized by the church, he had to petition for anulment of his previous 2 marriages.
Normal
December 29th, 2011
3:41 pm
Josef,
“we probably should have had this conversation elsewhere…”
Yeah, but I’m at work right now and it’s a slow day…
AmVet
December 29th, 2011
3:42 pm
Are there any women here today?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOdARZ3bs0k
josef
December 29th, 2011
3:44 pm
AmVet
It IS a tough row to hoe, ain’t it?
Doggone
Yes.
Thomas
December 29th, 2011
3:45 pm
Are there any women here today?
many my friend, many
josef
December 29th, 2011
3:46 pm
NORMAL
Understood…
Normal
December 29th, 2011
3:49 pm
Josef,
By the way,
I just finished listening to “A Canticle For Leibowitz”, and what got me started today was The Catholic Abbot trying to talk the girl and her baby out of going to the Mercy Camp. Pain is pain and relief in any form is better than none, especially when you have radiation sickness and are going to die anyway. I just can’t figure the Church views on that…stirs me up a little. I’m going to listen to it again tomorrow. This audio book thing has given me a new perspective on a book I have read many times. I’d read it again but at home the only time I get to read is when I’m in the john…and I’m getting too old to sit on the crapper for an hour…
Common Sense isn't very Common
December 29th, 2011
3:57 pm
http://www.politicalcartoons.com/cartoon/cff9305f-286a-46d6-bc73-d1178017f9d9.html
If some had their way
josef
December 29th, 2011
3:58 pm
NORMAL
Canticle…well, I am 6000 years old and “tents mended here!” Wanna play some mumbley peg?
Normal
December 29th, 2011
3:58 pm
OK,
I’m done for the day…don’t know if I’ll be in tomorrow so if not, have a happy years end, all y’all.
too little time
December 29th, 2011
3:59 pm
I agreed with everything, but liberal progressive Jay just had to throw this in:
“It’s a shame that Illinois church leaders decided that discriminating against gay couples was more important to them than continuing to provide much-needed services to orphans and neglected children. ”
WRONG. They decided that following the tenants of their faith was more important that providing adoption services to homosexual couples. There is a big difference between stating the facts and twisting the facts for a self-serving blog. Committing a “small sin” to perform a greater good IS the slippery slope justifying just about any sin for any reason.
Dusty
December 29th, 2011
4:00 pm
Uh oh,,,I don’t ask Gingrich about his personal life or his marriage management so I’ll ask friends if I want more info about Catholic “rules”..
AMVET, whatcha mean “Are there any women here today?” DUH!!!
Now ,I am getting an “annulment” from this blog on grounds that I need to find more sensible endeavors to waste time. Other “engagements” are pending. It is a “marriage” of time, talent and what’s for dinner. Truth never fails but time waits for no one, etc.etc,etc.
au revoir (ersatz)
Normal
December 29th, 2011
4:00 pm
Josef,
I don’t have the Poet’s glass eye and I don’t need a blue headed goat…
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
4:02 pm
“WRONG. They decided that following the tenants of their faith was more important that providing adoption services to homosexual couples.”
And you are WRONG. They decided their vieww of morality was more important than honoring the obligations of the contract they agreed to.
Thulsa Doom
December 29th, 2011
4:02 pm
keep up,
Apparently you need help with your critical thinking skills yet again. Its a long article but it cites the growing number of families and out of wedlock births rising after the rise of the welfare state and AFDC. The empirical evidence is there ma’am. You just have to read it. Why you try to dispute what is readily known and which is backed up by empirical evidence is beyond me. Go ahead. Stick your head back in the sand ma’am. Its where it belongs.
Tom in Lazybrook
December 29th, 2011
4:11 pm
The Catholic Church is unfortunately, trying to have it both ways. The Roman Catholic Church whines about supposed denial of freedom of religion in Illinois (which is really them whining about not being able to discriminate while acting as a majority-taxpayer funded state social welfare agency – not a ‘charity’) while at the same time advocating throwing members of progressive religions in prison for 10 years in Nigeria for simply attending a same sex marriage rite consistent with their religion in a private church. The Nigerian Bishops Conference (the official RC agency in Nigeria and led by the leaders of the church there) has endorsed (which has been widely reported in Nigerian mass media) legislation currently under consideration that will throw straight or gay pastors and congregants in prison for 10 years for simply attending a private same sex ceremony.
Which is worse persecution? Saying you cannot discriminate with taxpayer funds or saying if you attend a same sex marriage ceremony in your church, that you go to jail for up to 10 years.
carlosgvv
December 29th, 2011
4:23 pm
The Catholic Church coming down on orphans and neglected children is nothing new. By outlawing birth-control and abortions, they have forced countless thousands of women to have children they either cannot or will not support properly. Needles to say, once these forced births occur, the Church doesn’t lift a finger to help these helpless children. If there are any protests they reply “God will provide”.
pogo
December 29th, 2011
4:34 pm
Amvet at 3:14 pm. Good one.
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
December 29th, 2011
4:36 pm
Well, looks like this thread is dead as grandma. Anyhow, I’m about to head home to write up my New Years Revolutions. You’ll see a changed man on the first of the year.
Have a good night everybody and especially the people in Mississippi. Wouldn’t want josef to read any kind of slight here.
pogo
December 29th, 2011
4:41 pm
You seem to be very “prolific” nowadays Redneck. Lonely?
getalife
December 29th, 2011
4:44 pm
Nothing wrong with change.
Go for it RC.
Economy is looking better now the gop are not there to block our recovery.
12 will be a better year.
Chin up Americans.
Thulsa Doom
December 29th, 2011
5:04 pm
Latest poll
Romney 45%
Obama 39%
The community organizer is going DOWN! Obama is done. Its all over but the shouting!
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
5:09 pm
Again Thelma, I realize it is difficult for you to do without childish insults and resort to your tired cliches of “critical thinking skills” but again you make sweeping claims rather than cite specific findings in the article. The proposition for which you have cited this article is actual proof that “[Monyihan predicted]…the welfare state would destroy the black family in advance and he was later vindicated” and the original claim that “all you have to do is look at generations of welfare families to realize that unconditional charity creates long-term problems.”. Your article at bests states:
Three thinkers in particular—Charles Murray, Lawrence Mead, and Thomas Sowell—though they did not always write directly about the black family, effectively changed the conversation about it. First, they did not flinch from blunt language in describing the wreckage of the inner city, unafraid of the accusations of racism and victim blaming that came their way. Second, they pointed at the welfare policies of the 1960s, not racism or a lack of jobs or the legacy of slavery, as the cause of inner-city dysfunction, and in so doing they made the welfare mother the public symbol of the ghetto’s ills. (Murray in particular argued that welfare money provided a disincentive for marriage, and, while his theory may have overstated the role of economics, it’s worth noting that he was probably the first to grasp that the country was turning into a nation of separate and unequal families.)
1. Not Moynihan
2. Presents a conclusion NOT evidence
3. Does not support either proposition directly
4. Indirectly, while there may be a correlation between welfare and single mothers, that does not prove cause and effect. Moreover nothing in the article explains changes in the “nuclear family” that arise outside of “welfare families”.
5. The conclusions have been disputed. As noted in your article a “highly sophomoric treatment of illegitimacy”.
6. The article is a recap of other works and not the original work and provides only summation and opinion NOT evidence.
7. Other influences including civil rights reform and the selective enforcement and criminalization of acts which have and are enforced on a disperate basis have not been addressed.
While you may of course continue to suggest I have my head in the sand, that particular placement is a better alternative than the current placement of your head.
Normal
December 29th, 2011
5:09 pm
AmVet,
Just got home and checked out your “righteous dude” post…
pogo
December 29th, 2011
5:10 pm
Amvet, I found this article very interesting. As Rock goes so does America. It seems everything in America is some anemic reformulation of something that has come before. There is nothing wrong with repetition if it also embraces change but that is not what we are getting. There is no originality in movies, music or literature. Are we out of ideas? Vainty Fair recently had an excellent article on this very thing and the author of that article was exactly right. It isn’t only rock but it is the politicians, the writers and the citizens.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/01/arts/music/rock-in-2011-hot-chelle-rae-foster-the-people-chevelle.html?_r=1&hp
TaxPayer
December 29th, 2011
5:12 pm
Gallup:
Obama – 50%
Romney – 48%
kayaker 71
December 29th, 2011
5:14 pm
There are lots of things that our government should not be funding….. aid to churches is just one of them. But we don’t see the liberals complain when we fund some of these welfare baby factories in giveaway government housing projects by gazillions of dollars on the taxpayer dime. It’s OK when we give away the farm to support those who will not support themselves but when a church is aiding in placing children in foster homes when the children may have no other avenue to a normal life, that’s a no no. Sort of like not drilling for oil in a place that might have a snail darter or two in the way. I don’t agree with Bookman on raising children in a gay household. I don’t approve of the choice to be gay, anymore than they might approve of me and the way that I live. What is next?… the heavy hand of government taking away my social security check just because I don’t condone gay people?
Catholic Victim
December 29th, 2011
5:17 pm
I was born to a Catholic family but was diddled into becoming an atheist.
barking frog
December 29th, 2011
5:19 pm
K71, When did you decide to not be gay?
td
December 29th, 2011
5:20 pm
carlosgvv
December 29th, 2011
4:23 pm
Why must countless women have unwanted children in the first place? Do they not have any personal responsibility? Can they not control themselves? Why do we not make it a shameful act to bring children into the world that they can not afford?
We must blame the church instead of making people become responsible for their actions. This is a great outlook for our nation.
kayaker 71
December 29th, 2011
5:22 pm
barking frog,
I didn’t. Never was in issue.
pogo
December 29th, 2011
5:27 pm
And Michelle wears a $2,000 dollar sun dress on a days outing in Hawaii. The cost of that dress alone would easily feed an average American family of 4 for three or four months (if they didn’t buy too much fresh food). Face it folks. Obama is nothing but just another elitist and to support him is just as much a sham as conservatives supporting George W. Bush. Todays conservatives and progressives are one and the same and they all feed at the same campaign cash troughs and they all funnel taxpayer money to their campaign contributors. And all of it is to the detriment of our nation. All of them are woven of the same cloth.
midtownguy
December 29th, 2011
5:27 pm
His point, Kyaker is that we do not chose to be gay any more the we chose to be heterosexual. It is just who we are. No choice involved either way.
getalife
December 29th, 2011
5:30 pm
cons are reduced to crying about a dress.
Obama 52
willard 42.
Game over.
md
December 29th, 2011
5:30 pm
“Again Thelma, I realize it is difficult for you to do without childish insults and resort to your tired cliches of “critical thinking skills” but again you make sweeping claims rather than cite specific findings in the article.”
Says the one that leads off with a childish insult………
High road boys……high road.
AmVet
December 29th, 2011
5:31 pm
Normal, I’m just not sure which of those groups I belong in! (Probably the geeks or the wasteoids!)
Pogo, good article. And as TR wrote back in the 90s, “The TV blows, the music sucks”. And I agree, that stretches across most, if not all of our institutions.
(I suspect that the designated hitter was the cause!)
Even this guy tanked over they years. But wow, when he was good he was one of the best…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rls8cfomkBQ&feature=related
Paul
December 29th, 2011
5:32 pm
Scanned thru some of the comments, the pros and cons were about what I expected.
I’ve no problem with the ‘take public funds, be subject to public policy’ argument. But as I noted some time before, this is just the tip of the iceberg. Other, more serious issues, wait in the background.
Religious institutions do not have to receive public funds to have legitimate concerns with legislating SSM on a par with traditional marriage. This was illustrated in the arguments over Prop 8 in California.
It’s not just about losing funding for services. Being denied tax-exempt status on the basis of discrimination is a real possibility. The Supreme Court of Calif held that SSM is a basic and fundamental right on a par in every respect with traditional marriage. This was held partially on the basis of the Calif Constitution. If an organization denies fundamental rights, it can lose tax-exempt status. The Catholic Church ended adoptions in Massachusetts years ago on the basis Massachusetts demanded they allow gay couples to adopt. The Massachusetts court decisions and framework of laws let Catholic lawyers they would be in for a lengthy lawsuit and could not guarantee victory.
Yes, this it the tip of the deeper issues regarding this topic. It is also why I have advocated churches perform marriage for whichever couples they wish and government agencies perform civil unions (not marriages) for whomever they wish, for I think many individuals and organizations have agendas that go far beyond a desire for equal treatment under the law.
md
December 29th, 2011
5:32 pm
“I was born to a Catholic family but was diddled into becoming an atheist.”
And both are beliefs……..next.
td
December 29th, 2011
5:33 pm
midtownguy
December 29th, 2011
5:27 pm
His point, Kyaker is that we do not chose to be gay any more the we chose to be heterosexual. It is just who we are. No choice involved either way.
If this is true then why are there many more gays today then there were 100 years ago? If you are a believer in Darwin and scientific change then you would agree that there is a small number of the population that will be a deviation from the rest (people who are homosexual). That number is usually a small deviation (less than 1%), which is probably what the number was 100 years ago but now by the gay communities own count the number of homosexuals is around 5% of the population. This big of a change can not happen in this short of a period of time using this scientific theory.
md
December 29th, 2011
5:35 pm
Paul,
“life form” = child in my book.
Expecting parents don’t run down to get the first sonogram wanting to see the “life form”, although that is what it is.
One in the same in my book of definitions…….and yes, I’m well aware that my definition doesn’t conform to the definition on the books that was made up by someone else.
Paul
December 29th, 2011
5:39 pm
Interesting line from the NY Times article: “The Catholic providers offered to refer same-sex couples to other agencies (as they had been doing for unmarried couples), but that was not acceptable to the state, Mr. Marlowe said.”
So the Catholic Church was willing to interview prospective couples and refer them to other agencies but the state refused. Seems the issue is not about making sure kids get adopted.
Paul
December 29th, 2011
5:41 pm
md
Still on that?
Okay, so you think a fertilized egg is a child, yes?
If you just answer whether or not abortion is permissible under any circumstances you’ll have clearly stated your position, not just ’stating beliefs and gaining information from others.”
Old Timer
December 29th, 2011
5:43 pm
which is probably what the number was 100 years ago but now by the gay communities own count the number of homosexuals is around 5% of the population. This big of a change can not happen in this short of a period of time using this scientific theory.
A hundred years or so ago homosexuals were thrown in jail for being homosexual. No one came out and boasted of being gay. Read up on what happened to Oscar Wilde. There’s no reason to believe that the percentage of homosexuals today is any different than it was 100 years ago. I don’t know where you came up with this 1% figure, unless you pulled it out of a portion of your anatomy. Have a good night.
josef
December 29th, 2011
5:43 pm
td
You’re funny!
First off, there are more homosexuals today than there were 100 years ago because there are more people than there were 100 years ago, I’m not familiar with Darwin on homosexuality, a citation perhaps?
The figure most generally accepted is 10%. I have no idea myself, since I don’t go counting, but just looking at my own family over three generations, it seems to be that if not a bit higher, same in Unmentionable’s according to him. Not scientific, mind you, just a straw poll observation.
Oh, yes, Kayaker and the rest of y’all so worried ’bout the chirren, one of ours was just through and was looking over the posts here and laughing. I asked her why she didn’t respond. “Y’all taught me to be nice and act like a lady. I don’t want to reflect badly on my raising.”
Paul
December 29th, 2011
5:45 pm
midtownguy
“His point, Kyaker is that we do not chose to be gay any more the we chose to be heterosexual. It is just who we are. No choice involved either way.”
I used to make the same point, but upon further investigation into more recent studies, that is an erroneous statement.
Sexual identity is not an either/or gender issue. It’s not like saying “that person has blue eyes and that person has green eyes.” It’s conclusive that gender identity is a continuum – all the way from hardcore homosexual to hardcore heterosexual. And along that continuum there are those who can go either way.
So to be clear, I’m not saying gender identity is hardwired in and no choice is involved. That’s true for some. But not for others.
Paul
December 29th, 2011
5:47 pm
Good afternoon, josef
I enjoy those stories. You did a good job as a parent, you know that? Me, I’m amazed my kids turned out as well as they did, considering all the times I completely screwed up the on the job training.
Recon 0311 2533
December 29th, 2011
5:49 pm
Current Obama approval numbers: Gallup: Approve 41 Disapprove 50
Rasmussen: Approve 45 Disapprove 55
Yes Obama is really surging.
td
December 29th, 2011
5:49 pm
josef
December 29th, 2011
5:43 pm
I can look back on my family over the last 3 generations and say out of over 200 relatives I know there are zero homosexuals. One wonders if that has anything to do with a strong Southern Baptist upbringing the vast majority had?
josef
December 29th, 2011
5:49 pm
Old Timer
!00 years ago? Try 30…Hardwick v Georgia…for that matter, try 15
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_US_sodomy_laws.svg
stands for decibels
December 29th, 2011
5:51 pm
The community organizer is going DOWN! Obama is done. Its all over but the shouting!
[...]
Yes Obama is really surging.
Sigh. Guess I’ll have to re-post a little historical reality check for you guys:
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/more-cautionary-poll-tales/
And President BobDole sez “hi.”
td
December 29th, 2011
5:52 pm
Old Timer
December 29th, 2011
5:43 pm
Please point me towards the law and news accounts that this country put people in jail 100 years ago for being gay?
josef
December 29th, 2011
5:54 pm
td
Then, you’re blind as a bat! And, yes,Unmentionable even has a few Southern Baptist ones, including the cousin whose dad is a Southern Baptist minister…one of the sermons he delivers on a yearly basis, the Sunday closest to his son’s birthday, is “When it is your child you gave birth to and raised.” I wish I had a copy to pass on.
stands for decibels
December 29th, 2011
5:55 pm
heh. Noted this from my link above:
Overall, 45% say Clinton deserves re-election; 52% say he doesn’t, suggesting a close race
lessee… yeah, that’d be true, if a 379-159 electoral vote finish is considered “close.”
josef
December 29th, 2011
5:56 pm
PAUL
Whenever Unmentionable look at them it’s with awe and a comforting life’s measure “we must’ve done something right.”
Paul
December 29th, 2011
5:58 pm
josef
Yeah, good way to keep one humble (and grateful to the Powers that Be), isn’t it?
josef
December 29th, 2011
5:59 pm
td
citations provided at 5:49
midtownguy
December 29th, 2011
6:00 pm
There are the same number of “gays” as there were 100 years ago. There are just fewer covering it up. It has become somewhat socially acceptable to be gay, so fewer lie about it.
And Paul is correct, sexuality in a continuum. Only religion puts sexuality in distinct boxes of “straight/good” and “gay/bad”. And for the record, my partner of 20 years is the son of a Southern Baptist minister.
josef
December 29th, 2011
6:02 pm
PAUL
When one of the sniping jackasses was wanting to know about talking to G-d and G-d talking to you, did a lot of that when they were coming along.
td
December 29th, 2011
6:03 pm
josef
December 29th, 2011
5:59 pm
td
citations provided at 5:49
I saw that and thank you. I wonder how often the law was actually enforced? Also, I think sodomy laws were not just for homosexual behavior but also for what some believed was deviant behavior of heterosexuals.
josef
December 29th, 2011
6:03 pm
Hey, midtown guy…not just the son of a Southern Baptist minister, I understand, but a marine, too. Folks just don’t get it, do they?
Old Timer
December 29th, 2011
6:04 pm
Here y’are, TD. Read all about it. Even Thomas Jefferson proposed a law mandating castration for any man engaging in sodomy. You must be very, very young:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=anti-homosexuality%20laws%20in%20the%20united%20states&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSodomy_law&ei=SfH8TuvtBYTQgAea0KiKAg&usg=AFQjCNFM-rSzXw3BdxVQGUv9Yb6Dja8Qrg
Bo Diddly
December 29th, 2011
6:06 pm
“I was born to a Catholic family but was diddled into becoming an atheist.”
And both are beliefs……..next.
Just a WAG here but I’m thinking you missed the gist, md.
Paul
December 29th, 2011
6:11 pm
midtownguy
I’ve been thinking about that subject for a while now. So far, I’m at the point that religions had general belief systems, then following what happens when organizations become large and far-flung, they set out ‘decrees’ that often mixed personal views with doctrine, all in an attempt to provide a clear ‘this is the way it is’ framework.
Then comes along more scientific evidence and it causes a conundrum. I just don’t think the organizations can move all that fast in updating/reconciling their theology with what is pretty clear evidence…. particularly when they take a literalist approach to everything. I think those that look at issues as more symbolic have a better time of it.
So I’m a bit more charitable than many in my views of many institutions. I see a real behind the scenes struggle with some. But not all. And I’m less charitable in my views of many members of those institutions who’ll latch onto anything to justify their prejudices.
Sha'Tanya
December 29th, 2011
6:22 pm
“In Illinois,…”
Where else. Illinois is so dysfunctional on so many levels it makes California seem almost normal by comparison. Butting heads with the Catholic Church, which has its own weirdness issues…too funny.
josef
December 29th, 2011
6:22 pm
td
The enforcement varied depending on time and place. Most generally these charges, especially after the “thaw” in the 1960s tended to be in connection with other charges or for political or vendetta purposes.
That the laws existed at all left homosexuals open to blackmail by individuals and by authorities and there was a thriving business in that, reaching something of a zenith during the 1950s and McCarthyism.
At other times in the past, society has proven more open than others. During the 1920s and the jazz age there was such a thaw. The ante Bellum South was another such period, believe it or not. (Okay, Imam, we’ll get that one later!), particularly in the French speaking areas with their more open attitude toward sexuality in general…what goes on in N’awlins today has a long tradition.
In both these cases, times of social and economic stress brought back in the more rigid and puritanical.
midtownguy
December 29th, 2011
6:24 pm
joser. I am not sure what my partner’s father finds more objectionable about me. THe fact that I am 1) Gay, 2) A Democrat or 3) An Episcopalian. He has convinced himself that he raised a straight son who served honorably as a Marine and I somehow turned him gay *rolls eyes*.
JohnnyReb
December 29th, 2011
6:24 pm
My perception of the Catholic Church is that they were more tolerant and inclusive of gays long before other faiths. Notice I stated perception since I am not in either group which means I have no first hand experience. Some of you may know differently. For me, the story here is surprising.
To state the obvious, the uneducated equate homosexuality to child abuse, e.g., if gay parents have children they will sexually abuse them. That of course is garbage. There is no doubt that a normal, functional happy home regardless of the couples genders and sexual preferences is much better for a child than not having a permanent family.
I am reminded of a line in a song enjoyed as a boy in my parents church. “What wonderous love is this…” the song asks. The song is of course referencing Jesus’ sacrifice for man. I always when hearing the line think of my father’s love for me. And, I have no doubt a child raised by a dedicted gay parent would feel the same.
Broken Pope
December 29th, 2011
6:25 pm
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1211/70943.html
Hello? Is this the help line? Can I speak to Eric Holder? My guns were taken in a car stop. Can he get me more?
md
December 29th, 2011
6:33 pm
“Overall, 45% say Clinton deserves re-election; 52% say he doesn’t, suggesting a close race
lessee… yeah, that’d be true, if a 379-159 electoral vote finish is considered “close.””
It should also be noted that unemployment during that Clinton re-election had dropped from 7.3% to 5.6%. It stays around 9%, Obama will have an uphill climb…..
md
December 29th, 2011
6:35 pm
“Just a WAG here but I’m thinking you missed the gist, md.”
Didn’t miss it……just made a choice to stay off that low road.
Paul
December 29th, 2011
6:38 pm
Sure came late to this party as the regulars abandoned the topic way quicker. Must be a lot of interest in the Fl State bowl game.
0311/1811
December 29th, 2011
6:38 pm
Jay:
What was that yesterday about an “Obama Surge” ?
“GALLUP SWING: OBAMA BACK DOWN TO 41% APPROVE, 50% DISAPPROVE”
“RASMUSSEN SHOCK POLL: ROMNEY 45% OBAMA 39%”
AmVet
December 29th, 2011
6:39 pm
The first time I ever went to Mass was in boot camp. A bud of mine invited me and it beat cleaning the latrines on a Sunday morning. I was pretty impressed at the pageantry of it. And there was even a little work out involved, sit, stand, sit again, kneel, stand again, kneel again…
Old Timer, wry smile at that last comment .
Its easy to be smart but it’s a struggle to be wise
You shouldn’t be always throwing your weight around
It’s much better to be humble than to have a big hat size
Or you’ll be just begging somebody to take you down
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pMhk8-lSNM
josef
December 29th, 2011
6:39 pm
midtown guy…
We’re old farts now with our memories as Vonnegut would say, and after 35 years together, our folks have had to reassess certain of their former prejudices given ours has been a lot more stable a relationship than many of theirs. Some of what they say can be downright funny from time to time. Unmentionable’s brother was rather late in coming around, but he did. One night over some firewater, he losened up a bit while we were looking through some photo albums, he smiled (or leered, I’ve never been sure which!) and said, “well, I can see what it was that turned him…” Unmentionable roared, “that? Nanh it was your best buddy so and so when he came over to spend the night!” “He’s married and’s got three kids.” Unmentionable laughed, “and just what do y’all do at deer camp?”
getalife
December 29th, 2011
6:39 pm
I think after they covered up the rape of children, they should get out of politics.
Government should not be in our bedrooms. Period.
Our moral compass is broken and need to get a new one.
getalife
December 29th, 2011
6:41 pm
Scout,
That poll had mccain up by 10 last cycle.
josef
December 29th, 2011
6:42 pm
ZamVet
It’s the 1930s. Abie tells Hymie he’s converted to Catholocism. Hymie says, “how can you remember all that stuff you have to do, like the sign of the cross?” “Oh,” sez Abie. “that’s easy, spectacles, testicles, vatch and vallet.”
Erwin's cat
December 29th, 2011
6:43 pm
calzones tonight..:)
0311/1811
December 29th, 2011
6:43 pm
Which is why is meant nothing for Jay to tout an “Obama Surge”.
josef
December 29th, 2011
6:44 pm
getalife
“Government should not be in our bedrooms”
Unmentionable sez, “don’t bother me none. Ain’t nothin goin on in there no more anyway.”
josef
December 29th, 2011
6:46 pm
Question…just what constitutes a “surge” anyway….keep hearing it all over the place…is it relative or is there a scale?
md
December 29th, 2011
6:49 pm
“just what constitutes a “surge” anyway…”
Best I can tell, it seems to be any movement in any direction that isn’t the status quo……
carlosgvv
December 29th, 2011
6:49 pm
td – 5:20
You know perfectly well I did not say every woman who has an unwanted baby is Catholic. I am talking about the large number of men and women who are bullied and brainwashed by their priests into having child after child. I am also talking about all the Catholic pro lifers who hound and harrass women outside of aborition clinics. These priests and pro lifers do eveything possible to have as many women as possible have as many babies they possibly can. However, when it comes to furnishing financial assistance for food, clothing, shelter, medical care and schooling expenses for all these children they were so anxious to be born, they are nowhere to be seen.
Paul
December 29th, 2011
6:50 pm
Erwin’s cat
Lasagne. Made with a local Italian sausage.
Well, I hope this gets worked out and governments and churches partner together to find loving homes and parents for kids no one else will take in.
And shelve their other agendas.
Pleasant evening, all -
0311/1811
December 29th, 2011
6:50 pm
Regarding Tim Tebow’s Treatment:
“Christians will make enemies. If doing right and believing the truth causes us to lose every earthly friend, it will be only a small loss.
If you follow Christ, all the hounds of the world will yelp at your heels. If you are true and faithful to the Most High, people will resent
your unflinching devotion because it is a testimony against their iniquity. Regardless, of the consequences you must do what is right.
Risking your reputation and emotions for the truth requires a degree of moral principle that only the Spirit of God can work into you.”
Charles Spurgeon
0311/1811
December 29th, 2011
6:52 pm
A “surge” goes up and down, up and down, up and down ……………. if you don’t catch it at just the right time it means nothing.
Erwin's cat
December 29th, 2011
6:53 pm
Paul – hot Italian sausage, spinach and ricotta…is my typical filling…enjoy
0311/1811
December 29th, 2011
6:53 pm
Headline USA Today: “Advocates: More gay-friendly senior housing needed”
Ah ………………………………….. nevermind.
Paul
December 29th, 2011
6:54 pm
(josef – not too get too personal, but had a conversation the other day with a friend, about Unmentionable’s age, and he had a complete physical and his doc suggested testosterone therapy I asked him what difference it made and he said he has a lot more energy throughout the day, he finally began losing weight even though his workout routine hadn’t changed…. and in another moribund department… he and his wife were going on a getaway away from the kids! He said he didn’t know who was more excited about it – him or the Mrs. Like I said, not to get to personal, but I figure I can do that with a good friend).
TaxPayer
December 29th, 2011
6:54 pm
Scout mentions one particular Gallup poll that he liked but then changed to Rasmussen rather than sticking with Gallup on a different one. No consistency from you, Scout. Could it be due to Gallup’s results on the election if it were held today:
Obama 50%
Romney 48%
Paul
December 29th, 2011
6:55 pm
Erwin’s cat
Sound delicious. Another experiment for another time.
josef
December 29th, 2011
6:55 pm
Leftover pot roast stew with cornbread…cold night comfort food…
I thought surge was relative…thanks…
josef
December 29th, 2011
6:59 pm
PAUL
Just joshing! Still no complaints that direction. The subject did come up with some of my doc’s since some of the meds we’re on have that effect. When I told them we were doing fine, he laughed and said, “I guess I need to adjust the dosage!”
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
December 29th, 2011
7:01 pm
Well, it says on Fox.com that Michelle Bachmann’s campaign in Iowa is sinking fast. It’s a shame, too. A woman that can handle a long sausage like that—show ‘em, Sooth—could probly . . . well, you know. Anyways, it looks like she won’t be the first woman President after all.
Paul
December 29th, 2011
7:01 pm
josef
Tell that doc to stop experimenting on you!
Really now, company’s due any minute and there’s two bowl games tonight.
So have a really pleasant evening, okay?
Paul
December 29th, 2011
7:03 pm
Redneck Convert
Now we know why Newt’s faltered. Every time he thinks of Michelle, his mind drifts off the campaign strategy and Callista whacks him!
Thulsa Doom
December 29th, 2011
7:14 pm
Jay said Obama was “surging” in the polls? Musta been more of that liberal doublespeak where surging actually means the opposite of what’s really going on. And in other news in the land of the kook left up is down and black is white.
Midori
December 29th, 2011
7:16 pm
That surge post of Jay’s sure has some of you hot and bothered.
And it makes you look all the more foolish.
Thulsa Doom
December 29th, 2011
7:16 pm
A woman that can handle a long sausage like that—show ‘em, Sooth—could probly . . . well, you know. – Redneck
More tasteful and eloquent rhetoric from the kook left I suppose. I wonder what’s behind their hatred of women? Palin, Bachman, Do strong women intimidate the kooks?
getalife
December 29th, 2011
7:22 pm
doomy,
He is “(R–and proud of it)”, on your team if you will.
Moonbat Michelle did better than I expected.
I liked the way she attacked her gop opponents.
Good stuff.
Abrazos
December 29th, 2011
7:24 pm
“Latest poll
Romney 45%
Obama 39%”
Ah, yes, and I see that tidbit came straight from Rasmussen. The same Rasmussen that conducted more than twice the number of polls of any other pollsters in the last 21 days of the 2010 elections, yet missed the mark by an average of 5.8%, by far the worst performance. I might suggest holding off on the crowing until a more credible polling source produces its results.
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/04/rasmussen-polls-were-biased-and-inaccurate-quinnipiac-surveyusa-performed-strongly/
td
December 29th, 2011
7:25 pm
carlosgvv
December 29th, 2011
6:49 pm
I did not say it was only the Catholic church. But to a more interesting part of your post:
“These priests and pro lifers do eveything possible to have as many women as possible have as many babies they possibly can. However, when it comes to furnishing financial assistance for food, clothing, shelter, medical care and schooling expenses for all these children they were so anxious to be born, they are nowhere to be seen.”
Why is it any church or government or anyone else besides the two people that made the baby responsibility to take care of the child? People should either take care of their own child or forgo the pleasure of making them. It is called personal responsibility.
I had an uncle that use to tell me and my cousin almost every Friday or Saturday night when we were heading out. “Do not play the game unless you are willing to pay the price and the price is 18 years long”
hryder
December 29th, 2011
7:30 pm
“To thine own self be true.”
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
December 29th, 2011
7:30 pm
Well, times like this I get sentimental. I wonder what @@ is doing now that Wingnut had to close his blog because of the bad behavior of his bloggers and she’s been banned by Bookman. I bet she don’t have a fingernail longer that a 10th of a inch.
josef
December 29th, 2011
7:40 pm
Jumping in here where some might think I don’t belong, but what the hey…
I don’t much care for that argument about taking care of what comes from irresponsible parenting and the pro-life/pro-choice sanctimonious. We have our own story there with its own stfu angle, but let me pass on another one.
We have some neighbors who are religious Catholics. A few years back there was a family of five kids left alone when their papa ran off and their mom was being held for deportation. No sooner did it come to attention than those two went, got the kids, took them in and have raised them including putting them through elite private schools. They have two “natural” children. When asked why, she answers, “why wouldn’t we? We’re Christians.” I’ve known many, many people, who have taken in children not their own to raise. Where are they, you ask? All about you. Just take the time to look. They may not be in your crowd, but they are in mine and Unmentionable’s.
md
December 29th, 2011
7:45 pm
Good story Jo…….too bad folks will still stereotype others by the actions of a few.
I guess the old cunard of a few bad apples spoils the barrel is true in more ways than one……
josef
December 29th, 2011
7:54 pm
md
“…….too bad folks will still stereotype others by the actions of a few.”
Sadly, they will. K’chak takes a frequent swipe at me with “still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.” So, maybe I’m naif, but I want to hear the best, and I do hear it regularly. And, yes, I can most often disregard the rest. It works for me and I’m a pretty happy fellow…
Old Timer
December 29th, 2011
7:57 pm
A few years back there was a family of five kids left alone when their papa ran off and their mom was being held for deportation. No sooner did it come to attention than those two went, got the kids, took them in and have raised them including putting them through elite private schools.
A fine, inspiring story about a couple doing what should have been done. Still, as I was reading it, I was drawn to that mother being held for deportation and how frantic she must have been. There must be hundreds of thousands of such tragedies that occur as people bloviate about illegal immigration. There are a few good Christians who attempt to live their faith in such an instance, but there are many more who profess the faith and then ignore the human side of such stories.
Soothsayer
December 29th, 2011
7:57 pm
Did I understand correctly? Wingfield’s blog is no longer? Please let me know.
josef
December 29th, 2011
8:08 pm
Old Timer
The mom had her issues, but she loves her kids and she saw it in their best interest to be able to stay in their country of birth. The kids were sent to spend vacations and breaks with her. I posted here the other day about what one of our local congregations did, and is doing, to aid eight families displaced right at Christmas by a fire. None of those families were in the congregation. To quickly recap, the fire was on a Saturday, a collection was called for Sunday morning, by Monday morning they had collected $13,000. On top of that they acted as the clearing house for the many, many others who wanted to help. It was amazing. I would say it “restored” my faith in my fellow man, but that’s not exactly true. It buttressed it.
As for the deportation etc. Those stories are legion. And I wish some of our, as you call them, bloviators, knew just what it means at the human level. It certainly would be a test of faith, hope and charity.
josef
December 29th, 2011
8:09 pm
Sooth
Yeah, I was wondering the same thing.
md
December 29th, 2011
8:12 pm
Well, count me as a bloviator, as I do have issues with illegal immigration……as for the human side of the equation, it never seems to come up about the ones that are suffering while waiting their turn in line while the ones that skipped in front of them get all the compassion………..
Go figure…….out of sight out of mind. Then go watch the gumball video and let’s talk about the human side of the equation.
Am I hearing that the trick is more or less the survival of the fittest and screw the rest?? Sounds like a good immigration policy…….do whatever it takes to get here first and screw those others….
josef
December 29th, 2011
8:17 pm
md
I’m probably well to the right of you on the matter of illegal immigration, be it from south of the Rio Grande or north of the Mason-Dixon-Ohio River-36 30
But, there is the human equation here and it takes precedence over the political. I guess my moral compass points to the children and is fixed there.
md
December 29th, 2011
8:28 pm
Sure Jo, there is always a human equation as they are all human…….but the compassion seems to be restricted to those that made it here ILLEGALLY vs the countless numbers of others that may never get here. There are plenty of poor little Johnnies around the planet that are suffering as they wait patiently to enter the system playing by the rules and folks like Old Timer don’t seem to much care about them………the compassion is for those that line jumped vs for those that got jumped.
Paulo977
December 29th, 2011
8:29 pm
Normal…All I can think of is “love God, hate religions”.
________________
As Lenny Bruce puts it…..
“Every day people are straying away from church and going back to God”!!!
0311/1811
December 29th, 2011
8:29 pm
“How about passing a law that says no law can be longer than our Constitution, which is roughly 5,000 words? That would be bold. No more congressional buffoonery creating confusing laws that contain hundreds of thousands of words that require an army of legal sharks to interpret. We also should demand that for every new law passed, 10 laws need to be rescinded. How about it GOP?
Bold is beautiful. Let’s get it on in 2012. I am. Are you?”
Ted Nugent
td
December 29th, 2011
8:33 pm
0311/1811
December 29th, 2011
8:29 pm
I would vote for Uncle Ted over any of our current cast running for President. He would get this country back on the right path.
josef
December 29th, 2011
8:37 pm
md
We needed the cheap labor. It was wink-wink and the whole system broke down. Had there been a line for them, they would have gotten in it. Instead, we hung out a welcome sign and the line formed at the border jump, all according to the acceptable. Now that we don’t need the cheap labor, round ‘em up and herd ‘em out. They played by the rules, we just don’t want to admit that the “rules” were based in an hypocracy which we ALL benefitted from. Just like those lovely plantation manors built by a rightless and servile labor force, so too is this glittering edifice of Oz here in Atlanta.
It’s long, long since time we “fix it” but this “wait your turn” bromide is disingenous. Now we have the problem of millions of people who bought the line, came, worked, contributed, and settled down to raise families, their children born here and every bit as much citizens as any of the rest of us.
My thoughts? Pull the troops home, station one every 100 yards along both borders and stop the influx, quit the wink-wink crap and deal with what’s here and do it in a humane fashion.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
8:41 pm
There are plenty of poor little Johnnies around the planet that are suffering as they wait patiently to enter the system playing by the rules and folks like Old Timer don’t seem to much care about them………the compassion is for those that line jumped vs for those that got jumped.
A somewhat superficial analysis. Some of the compassion for those who were brought here by their parents as children through no fault of their own (let’s say as a 2 yr old), they have been here for 20 years, this is the only country they truly know, they are hard workers and, in effect, this is their only home. To make them leave this county and “return” to a country they have never known is absurd. They are in effect “innocents”. That is different than an adult who “jumped the line” as put.
josef
December 29th, 2011
8:48 pm
good fight
Don’t you get it…sins of the fathers…visited unto the seventh generation, so let’s deport the Yankees and their children while we’re at it…
Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
December 29th, 2011
8:51 pm
When the pedophiles demand the same “right”, which they will do sooner or later, what will be your answer to them, Jay? Same thing.
Recon 0311 2533
December 29th, 2011
8:51 pm
Interesting how Bookman finds blog topics that avoid Obama’s dismal first term record. He can’t tout any significant Obama administration accomplishments so he seeks out topics that disparage the potential challengers to Obama’s bid for a second term. Jay’s minions fall right or I should say left into line. The Lemming Syndrome.
moonbat betty
December 29th, 2011
8:55 pm
You got that right 0311/1811.
The Nuge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R15a68VcG04&feature=related
Sam
December 29th, 2011
8:59 pm
More power to the Catholic Church of Illinois. They have every right to make this decision based on their beliefs. Who here would want their children raised by gay parents if they had a choice…?
josef
December 29th, 2011
9:00 pm
Unmentionable says, yeah, that’s the ticket…
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_-mu6dW4praY/TKPGKLeRcPI/AAAAAAAAbdI/FbUkFzryTiY/s1600/stop+the+illegals.jpg
Dusty
December 29th, 2011
9:01 pm
Well, I see some are wondering if Kyle’s blog is closed. NO, it isn’t. Kyle is on vacation and will return the first of the year. He left his Christmas message and you can post but there will not be an “open” blog until he returns.
I’m looking forward to his nice clear messages again. No digging for the numbers. No controversy for the heck of it. Just a message you can think about and respond. Good, honest journalism.
td
December 29th, 2011
9:02 pm
josef
December 29th, 2011
8:48 pm
good fight
Don’t you get it…sins of the fathers…visited unto the seventh generation, so let’s deport the Yankees and their children while we’re at it…
I could support that one all the way.
josef
December 29th, 2011
9:02 pm
SAM
Who? Ask Unmentionable’s sister as she lay on her death bed…
Right Wing…
Oh, dear, I fear the lady doth protest too much…
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
9:04 pm
josef…. yep, a pox on their houses and those of their children
And we are back to the pedophiles slippery slope…….
ken
December 29th, 2011
9:05 pm
Should have written about Van Jones.
Recon 0311 2533
December 29th, 2011
9:05 pm
“Good, honest journalism.”
Dusty, that’s is indeed a rarity you won’t find coming from the left.
moonbat betty
December 29th, 2011
9:08 pm
Dusty, they had some Newt and religion bashin’ to do over here today.
And bye george, they did it.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
9:11 pm
Who here would want their children raised by gay parents if they had a choice
Well since you asked, I don’t think the sexual orientation matters squat to that decision, the more important decision would be who the “parents” are. A wonderful heterosexual TX judge who beats his child and his wife who permits it or a same sex couple who loves and nutures the child. Hmmmmmmmm. Guess it would depend on whether someone needed their nap >:)
getalife
December 29th, 2011
9:12 pm
Kyle’s blog is closed because the cons need a baby sitter.
Bunch of children.
josef
December 29th, 2011
9:14 pm
good fight
It sorta makes you wonder what’s going on in some people’s minds, don’t it?
moonbat
Yep. Gotta keep the blog numbers up and the unwashed masses satisfied…
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
9:14 pm
Good honest journalism
Well I see that some still don’t comprend what an OPINION blog is all about.
BADA BING
December 29th, 2011
9:15 pm
End of the year Math test
Pair of Air Jordans…….$180
Marta fare for trip to store……$3.00
Coffee and donuts while waiting in line….$4.50
Red Bull and 2 40s while waiting in line……$15.00
Ditching work at Micky Ds for the day…………$45.00
Fine and jail time for missing meeting w/ Parole Officer……TBD
Figure total cost of shoes, counting Bail and court costs
moonbat betty
December 29th, 2011
9:18 pm
getalife, Kyle’s blog is most likely closed because of you and your ILK!
ilk boy.
Recon 0311 2533
December 29th, 2011
9:19 pm
I just haven’t seen any real life testimonials from children raised by same sex couples or case history accounts written up in the media to support the view that parental sexual orientation matters squat.
AmVet
December 29th, 2011
9:19 pm
betty, saw the Husker love downstairs. Niiice.
Yep, once upon a time the Motor City Madman was musically relevant. I never bought any of his stuff, but I’d listen to it on the radio. But, now…
Love Grenade is Ted Nugent’s 20th studio album. It was released on September 4, 2007. It was recorded at DRS Studios in Waco, Texas. Sales figures, however, have been low, with the album only selling 3,600 copies in its first week, landing it at #186 on the Billboard 200. The pre-release cover art drew some controversy, as it depicts a naked woman bound and with a grenade in her mouth, on her knees on a platter.
He remakes the acid-rock hit “Journey to the Center of the Mind”, made popular by his ’60s group The Amboy Dukes.
I’ll have to check out a couple of songs and see…
Gonna strut like a cock til I’m ninety nine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTSxAMPXJ80
josef
December 29th, 2011
9:20 pm
good fight
Not so sure about how good it’s been, but it sure has been honest! Amazing how honest folks without the by line attached CAN be…
0311/1811
December 29th, 2011
9:20 pm
td @ 8:33
Amen to that !
Jack
December 29th, 2011
9:23 pm
I think the church did the right thing.
josef
December 29th, 2011
9:23 pm
DEL
Like I said, got three of them…I’ll try and see if I can’t seriously convince them to answer your questions…
getalife
December 29th, 2011
9:24 pm
moonbat,
I have never ilked in my life.
moonbat betty
December 29th, 2011
9:25 pm
Yeah, if you listen to the entire 8:55 (the second half rocks) you will witness a madman on a six string.
moonbat betty
December 29th, 2011
9:28 pm
getalife,
getalife and kamchack ilk each other.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
9:28 pm
I just haven’t seen any real life testimonials from children raised by same sex couples or case history accounts written up in the media to support the view that parental sexual orientation matters squat.
Well perhaps your latest issue of Gay Pride is still on your doorstep or you left it in your shower stall? Have you tried “the internet”?
Recon 0311 2533
December 29th, 2011
9:28 pm
josef,
With all due respect and in full appreciation that there are exceptions to every rule it would take considerably more than posts on this blog to convince a skeptic like me.
BADA BING
December 29th, 2011
9:29 pm
News item….. Bald chick Sinead O’Conner’s 4th marriage lasts 14 days. She reportedly wants to talk to Kim K, on how she made her marriage last 72 days.
Recon 0311 2533
December 29th, 2011
9:33 pm
“Well perhaps your latest issue of Gay Pride is still on your doorstep or you left it in your shower stall? Have you tried “the internet”?”
Huh?…you sure have trouble in supporting your positions don’t you.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
9:33 pm
Well lets see, here’s a testimonial: http://thelastword.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/02/02/5978433-iowa-teen-defends-his-gay-mothers
But I see the goal posts have already been moved across the field from “I just haven’t seen any real life testimonials” to “it would take considerably more than posts on this blog to convince a skeptic like me”. The Road Runner could not move that fast.
josef
December 29th, 2011
9:34 pm
DEL
And again with all due respect, but we are tired of being thought of as the exceptions. It’s no compliment.
josef
December 29th, 2011
9:37 pm
good fight
It just goes to prove what Oldest Boy said, “they don’t want to hear it. They don’t know what love is and nothing we have to say will put it in their hearts.”
Recon 0311 2533
December 29th, 2011
9:37 pm
josef,
No compliment intended but neither did I intend insult. I believe what I believe and don’t apologize.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
9:40 pm
Then there is this:
http://www.rossde.com/editorials/childrenofgays.html
And if you want we can teach you how to Bing it….
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
9:41 pm
And this one:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07161/793042-51.stm
0311/1811
December 29th, 2011
9:41 pm
Headline: “Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Secretary Janet Napolitano has recruited hockey fans into counterterrorism efforts, as DHS has expanded the “If you see something, say something” campaign to National Hockey League (NHL) games.”
The problem is you really can’t or you will be accused of some sort of bias, i.e. Mayor Bloomberg !!!
“A group of prominent Muslim figures in New York City have said they will boycott an annual meeting on Friday with Mayor Michael Bloomberg in order to protest against police surveillance of their communities.”
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
9:41 pm
And this one:
http://www.creatingfamilies.com/SM/SM_Info.aspx?Type=121
Dusty
December 29th, 2011
9:44 pm
Moonbat Betty, @9:00
Yep, but most of it was stuff I had heard before.
After reading Bookman awhile, you know what the “opinions” will be. His troopers can hardly wait to agree with him.
I’ll say this for Bookman, he knows how to whistle and make his gang hop right up and follow his lead. I used to have a dog like that. Faithful as could be. .
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
9:45 pm
And this one:
http://www.csun.edu/~psy453/harm_n.htm
You sure you checked? I mean certainly you would before you would make such a statement that there are no testimonials nor any “support”….. I mean that would make you look foolish.
But you believe what you want to believe…. you can believe in the Tooth Fairy too
josef
December 29th, 2011
9:45 pm
DEL
And do you never challenge those beliefs? And, no, I did not take it as an insult. I would never call you a bigot, but you are prejudiced and are comfortable with that. We all have them and we all resist challenging them. Our standard response is most generally when dealing with someone who does not fit our preconceived notion is that they are the exception.
ODD OWL
December 29th, 2011
9:53 pm
The anti-Gay Catholic Priests are a bunch of morally corrupted hypocrites… The Catholic Priesthood is riddled with deviant pedophiles who sexually abuse young boys. These sexually active pedophile Priests are perverted perpetrators of the negative moral virtues. They’re pumped full of arrogant pomposity.
AmVet
December 29th, 2011
9:55 pm
So the scuttlebutt is that Wingfield has joined Wooten in the AJC’s blogging morgue?
Geez.
Even if cons can’t blog worth a damn, I gather their AM noise machine is still going strong.
And Herman of the suspended campaign won’t endorse fellow womanizer, Newt? Wassup with that? I thought they were buddies and all. Georgia’s Republicans are working feverishly to earn the reputation as the nuttiest of them all.
Another guy who made some good music in the day, but something went very wrong and he succumbed to the dark side. LOL.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPjhakaK-yI
0311/1811
December 29th, 2011
9:56 pm
Not all cultures, prejudices or biases are equal.
Some promote good ………… some promote iniquity.
Recon 0311 2533
December 29th, 2011
9:57 pm
Keep, If you feel that I’m ignoring you, you’re correct I am.
md
December 29th, 2011
9:58 pm
“We needed the cheap labor. It was wink-wink and the whole system broke down. Had there been a line for them, they would have gotten in it. ”
And I might agree with that if it wasn’t continuing while there are no jobs…….I suspect it is more about proximity and getting a foot in the door before the door gets closed.
Amnesty #1 compounded the situation as well.
josef
December 29th, 2011
10:03 pm
Md
Agreed on amnesty one..The border should have been slammed shut then…but it wasn’t. Until we do that, nothing will change…
Recon 0311 2533
December 29th, 2011
10:03 pm
josef,
You can call my beliefs prejudiced if you wish but if my beliefs are strong as mine are there’s no reason for me to challenge them. I did indicate that I recognize exceptions and gave your circumstance the benefit of my doubt based on that assumption.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
10:03 pm
Keep, If you feel that I’m ignoring you, you’re correct I am
Well sure you are…that’s why you told me you are.
Of course you can continue your ignorance in light of evidence to the contrary. You may try sticking your fingers in your ears and repeating “na na nana boo boo, I don’t hear you” too.
theyeshaveit
December 29th, 2011
10:06 pm
Not all cultures, prejudices or biases are equal.
Scout,
That sounds a bit iniquitous to me.
As for culture, while it is always hard to define, I have taught my second language acquisition students this: “Culture is an ingrained set of perceptions and behavior.” In other words, to each his own.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
10:06 pm
josef, perhaps this may help: http://www.wikihowl.com/lead-a-horse-to-water.html
Dusty
December 29th, 2011
10:08 pm
AmVet,
Do you ever read anything besides your own posts?
For the thIrd time today, KYLE IS ON VACATION AND WILL RETURN. Wooten retired with a fine record and reputation. Not the kind of journalist you like, huh?
theyeshaveit
December 29th, 2011
10:13 pm
josef,
Irony?
On the east coast we have had the Statue of Liberty proclaim “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.”
At the portal on Ellis Island we welcomed them. Meanwhile, on the southern border, we have Joe Arpaio trying to build a wall.
Neil Allen
December 29th, 2011
10:15 pm
Religious freedom allows YOU to practice your religion. It doesn’t mean you can shove it down anyone else’s throat. That is OUR freedom.
If you don’t like gay marriage, don’t have one, even though an inordinate number of your priests are gay. If you don’t want an abortion don’t have one and don’t give anyone else one. If you don’t want to use contraception, don’t, but don’t stop us from doing it. Don’t take federal money from any government agency, then impose your religious freedoms on the recipients. For instance, don’t take government grants and then tell women not to use contraception or have abortions.
This is pretty simple for honest, non-Catholics to understand. It is more confusing inside the Catholic church, where honesty is not practiced, especially when discussing religious freedom or priests having sex with children.
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
10:17 pm
“On the east coast we have had the Statue of Liberty”
Well…we can ignore THAT! After all, the Stature of Liberty was built by a FRENCHMAN! /snarc
theyeshaveit
December 29th, 2011
10:18 pm
Neil,
I was with you until I read your last paragraph.
theyeshaveit
December 29th, 2011
10:22 pm
Doggone,
If I recall, the statue wasn’t a statue at all when it arrived on these shores. It arrived in various pieces. Americans had to raise money to get it assembled. If they hadn’t, it might have be relegated to some warehouse someplace.
josef
December 29th, 2011
10:22 pm
Del
As you know I have strong opinions and firm beliefs. I understand what you are saying there. On more than one occasion, though, I have had my prejudices challenged and have found it necessary to refine and reevaluate my beliefs. It’s not easy but it can be done and it is an ongoing and imperfect process.
I’m reminded of the old Southernism. I’m not as good as I ought to be. I’m not as good as I want to be. But thank G-d I’m not as bad as I was…..
md
December 29th, 2011
10:22 pm
“At the portal on Ellis Island we welcomed them.”
Sure did……and they waited patiently in line to be processed through the “System”, and they were all LEGAL.
See the difference.
AmVet
December 29th, 2011
10:23 pm
One of the things that dismays me whenever the topic turns to homosexuality, is that inevitably some fool here makes the preposterous, direct comparison between it and pedophilia.
And in their horribly misguided quest to condemn perversion, have become perverted themselves…
theyeshaveit
December 29th, 2011
10:24 pm
I’m reminded of the old Southernism. I’m not as good as I ought to be. I’m not as good as I want to be. But thank G-d I’m not as bad as I was…..
I like that.
josef
December 29th, 2011
10:25 pm
Eyes
@ 10:18
Me, too.
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
10:26 pm
“If I recall, the statue wasn’t a statue at all when it arrived on these shores”
Yeah, “built” is kind of a broad term in her case. But I would say she was built by a Frenchman and assembled here.
Smelly Liberal Land
December 29th, 2011
10:27 pm
md, Dusty, Recon
WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!?!
Why are you arguing with people who have the IQ of a house fly?
Do you think that they are going to have a giant burst of intelligence and understand what you are trying to tell them?
Give it up!! Go do something that is more likely, like teaching a dog to operate a laptop.
theyeshaveit
December 29th, 2011
10:28 pm
md,
It is not about THAT difference. There are illegals from the north that no one seems to care about.
I am reminded also of the time a reporter was interviewing a Mexican-American regarding his take on what had been happening in Arizona (their immigration law). Said he, “I never crossed the border; the border crossed ME.”
td
December 29th, 2011
10:28 pm
Neil Allen
December 29th, 2011
10:15 pm
Religious freedom allows YOU to practice your religion. It doesn’t mean you can shove it down anyone else’s throat. That is OUR freedom.
And Secular humanism is a religion too so when you try to shove such things as gay marriage and the gay lifestyle as an acceptable alternative that should be celebrated then you are forcing your religious beliefs on us Christians.
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
10:29 pm
“Go do something that is more likely, like teaching a dog to operate a laptop”
Well, it looks like it CAN be done. Appears to have been successful in at least one case.
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
10:30 pm
“And Secular humanism is a religion too so when you try to shove such things as gay marriage and the gay lifestyle as an acceptable alternative that should be celebrated then you are forcing your religious beliefs on us Christians.”
Christians support gay marriage too.
theyeshaveit
December 29th, 2011
10:30 pm
Smelly,
Can you spell argumentum ad hominem?
Dusty
December 29th, 2011
10:34 pm
Awww theyeshaveit,
Sure, we welcomed THEM at Ellis Island and we examined them and we RETURNED those to the country from whence they came when they did not meet regulations such as good health, etc. Read up!
SHERIFF Arapio arrests people who have broken the law, the people the Feds were supposed to arrest but had not done it. Activists claim he overdid it. They do not want anyone arrested. We shall see if an officer of the law is wrong to arrest lawbreakers.
theyeshaveit
December 29th, 2011
10:35 pm
And Secular humanism is a religion too so when you try to shove such things as gay marriage and the gay lifestyle as an acceptable alternative that should be celebrated then you are forcing your religious beliefs on us Christians.
td,
Holy Cow Dung!
I suppose others will respond but…
Is anyone forcing you to be gay? lol. And what makes you think that anyone sits down and “decides” if being gay is an “alternative” to anything? Good grief.
Smelly Liberal Land
December 29th, 2011
10:36 pm
theyeshaveit
Can I spell it? You need to learn what it means.
Are you actually expecting me to debate you? You would need to triple your IQ before I could even teach you.
moonbat betty
December 29th, 2011
10:36 pm
I’m sorry, Smelly did make me smile for a second.
If you don’t mind me asking; how many dogs do you have Doggone/GA?
AmVet
December 29th, 2011
10:37 pm
And Secular humanism is a religion too…
Agreed, but only if one uses the Dictionary of Made Up Definitions, in which secular does not mean not pertaining to or connected with religion
josef
December 29th, 2011
10:38 pm
Doggone
@ 10:29
You jus keep takin the words out my mouth!
Td
Seriously, Mate, you’re awfully judgmental
theyeshaveit
December 29th, 2011
10:39 pm
Dusty,
I have already “read up”. As my uncle once said to an apparent classroom of would-be cheaters, “Before you were, I WAS.”
And yes, the Nazis were not the only ones practicing Eugenics. We were doing it in this country for a long time. Read up. There were even Eugenics certificates that one offered to a prospective partner in marriage as evidence that he/she was certainly not one of THEM.
Smelly Liberal Land
December 29th, 2011
10:40 pm
moonbat betty
+ Smelly did make me smile for a second. +
My life is complete.
Conservatives, have a good night, but understand that it is hopeless. These poor people still support Barrack Obama. Doesn’t that say everything?
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
10:40 pm
I have helped teach dogs to open doors and cabinets, turn off lights, bring me the remote control, use the phone to call for help, warn about pending seizures and a number of other commands. I can get a dog to turn on the laptop but I still can’t get them to type a coherent message…. oh wait, that smelly dog was not coherent. General is that you? Have you been rolling in the mud again?
josef
December 29th, 2011
10:41 pm
Smelly
Okay, what IQ do you want to have for debate…?
td
December 29th, 2011
10:43 pm
theyeshaveit
December 29th, 2011
10:35 pm
I feel like it is in my genetic makeup to have multiple wives. I can go back through history and even in modern day and show you example after example and claim that is normal and that there is great benefits for me being able to have multiple wives. But alas, this society says that me having multiple wives is wrong and will not approve it. I accept the this judgement and am forced just to have one wife. Gay marriage is the same. Society thinks it is not normal so they will not allow it and for gays to try to force it on the majority is offensive.
theyeshaveit
December 29th, 2011
10:43 pm
Smelly,
Well, I really hate to brag but my first university placed in me the top 1% of all freshman that had every entered the university in its first 50 years. And the good Jesuit priests saw to it that understood well argumentum ad hominem was all about in my Logic class.
By the way, should not your handle be “stinky” rather than “smelly”? I seem to recall something that the good old Ben Jonson once said.
The Thin Guy
December 29th, 2011
10:44 pm
Same sex couples? Why couples? How about triples, quadruples, … , googles, and a single self pleasurer? Don’t care who you marry. Marry a goldfish. Just draw the curtains around the aquarium before consummating the relationship. But have a heart. Growing up is hard. Imagine the ridicule that some kid will have to endure when his friends find out that his “parents” have identical rather than complementary plumbing. Notice that Bookman is always citing “studies” but all of the research projects had the outcome defined before any data was taken. Just the old liberal algorithm: Multiple the answer by zero and add the desired result and congratulate yourself on your perspicacity.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
10:47 pm
SHERIFF Arapio arrests people who have broken the law, the people the Feds were supposed to arrest but had not done it.
While ignoring a number of other crimes he was to have been investigating including those committed against children and violating a number of laws in the process and violating the civil rights of Americans and others, hindering an investigation… but then violating the Constitution – IOKIYAR.
theyeshaveit
December 29th, 2011
10:48 pm
td,
Well, no one forced you to get married either. Would you not have been a happier camper had you just chosen the “alternative”, that is, a single lifestyle with permiscuous inclinations?
AmVet
December 29th, 2011
10:48 pm
Thanks Thin Guy. I omitted the bestiality comparison in my 10:23.
Silly me…
Dusty
December 29th, 2011
10:49 pm
Smelly,
Thanks for your err dubious support. In the meantime, take a shower.
—————————
Josef,
There are a lot of good old Southernisms. How about: You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink or You can beat a dead horse but he won’t run—-something like that ????
Tres bien? et Bon nuit! (more ersatz!)
PS # 4 >>> Did you know that KYLE is on vacation ?
theyeshaveit
December 29th, 2011
10:52 pm
It’s checkout time for me. Goodnight all.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
10:55 pm
Seems we got a lot of baloney being served by the wingnuts tonight. SO if anyone wants a late night snack…
http://www.wikihowl.com/baloneysandwich.html
Dusty
December 29th, 2011
10:57 pm
Keep Up
You did not answer my question. Are law officers supposed to arrest lawbreakers?
If the sheriff is going beyond the law, he is being investigated. Unlawful immigration is established as a federal law supported by state law in Arizona. I stand by officers of the law until they are proven guilty of injustice. The law is.not made at the moment by a bunch of activists who would arrest no one they support, criminal or otherwise.
josef
December 29th, 2011
10:58 pm
Thin guy
Ever see the film What’s Eating Gilbert Grape…? Kids are mean L’il b*Byers. Some grow out of it. Others, we can see, do not.
ODD OWL
December 29th, 2011
11:01 pm
The Pope helped coverup pedophilla in his own parish when he was the ArchBishop of Germany… PS… The Pope have those sandusky eyes too.. Just saying…
moonbat betty
December 29th, 2011
11:05 pm
Dang, Smelly ruffled a few feathers no doubt.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
11:07 pm
Dusty, well your claim is nonsense. No one said don’t arrest criminals. You can “stand” by an officer all you want in your nonsense world. The findings of the Justice Department concluded he was guilty and has removed certain powers granted his department by Homeland Security. A court found he impeded investigation and destroyed documents. Your sheriff has 2700 lawsuits against him just in a 3 year period. And he ignored dozens of alleged child molestation cases while pursuing his politically motivated assault.
Doubt_It
December 29th, 2011
11:10 pm
@moonbat – only in your world did Smelly ruffle feathers. Heck if you and Smelly don’t like Bookman’s blog, then why even bother to read and/or post? Probably what most are wondering is that if Smelly doesn’t care for Bookman’s opinions, then why bother to read/post on his blog. That you all would continue to read and respond on a blog with which you have total disdain is most stupefying to me.
Anywho…have a good night
Thulsa Doom
December 29th, 2011
11:14 pm
I come back and I see that ankle biter has been nipping at quite a few ankles tonight in his meltdown. Must not a had much of a Christmas. Seems like that little chihuahua sure can nip. He sure aint got much of a bite though. More like a big bark and a little bite.
Dusty
December 29th, 2011
11:18 pm
Keep up
So the Sheriff was investigated by the Justice Department which controls the Fed agency that is not doing the job it is supposed to be doing and that is controlling and removing ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS.
If the Sheriff has done wrong, so have the Feds. Both should do the jobs they were trained to do and neither is doing it correctly even as illegals flood Arizona.
I suggest that you start at the top with the Feds who are not doing their job and then “jump” on the AZ sheriff. Maybe then he would have time and help to watch out for little children and other LAWFUL citizens.
Thulsa Doom
December 29th, 2011
11:20 pm
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
10:55 pm
“Seems we got a lot of raw meat being eaten by the locknuts tonight.”
Doomy with the typo correction.
Thulsa Doom
December 29th, 2011
11:23 pm
Ya gotta love sheriff arpaio. Mr. Law and Order and the one who drives the bleeding heart libs nuts. Always ticking off the locknuts with his clampdown on criminals. 2700 lawsuits against him. All that means is that the prisoners got 2700 frivolous suits. Ole Joe must be doing something right.
md
December 29th, 2011
11:24 pm
“It is not about THAT difference. There are illegals from the north that no one seems to care about. ”
Seems is the operative word………makes no difference to me about the direction in which they came, skirting the system is/was the problem. And I have no problem letting them in……after they go to the back of the line and all other applications pending are processed.
moonbat betty
December 29th, 2011
11:25 pm
getalife:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_sxUDw4Yds
Thulsa Doom
December 29th, 2011
11:36 pm
“These poor people still support Barrack Obama. Doesn’t that say everything?”
I dunno if it says everything. But it says a helluva lot. Damn that was a funny post.
moonbat betty
December 29th, 2011
11:39 pm
thank you for your input, Doubt_It @ 11:10.
u2.
Jm
December 29th, 2011
11:59 pm
More government waste.
$3 billion for the catholic church?
OMG
Jm
December 30th, 2011
12:04 am
End religious subsidies
God and government don’t belong together in this (or almost any) fashion
Z
December 30th, 2011
12:23 am
The catholic church discriminates against gays but yet they let pedophiles priests remain in their churches. Why our government would give this church money, to handle orphanages for children is truly amazing. The Catholic church is a known haven for pedophiles with over 3000 pedophile priest and counting world wide. Not only does the Catholic church allow these rapist of children stay in the churches they move them to other churches when they are found out, where they can continue to rape children again and again. I don’t want one dime of taxpayer money to go to churches, any religions, especially to the Catholic church who continues to hide their perverts, while paying off the poor victims(a billion $’s and counting) whose parents must have been blinded by the harsh light, to allow their children to take one step through this churches doors. This is what they tell their flocks to say, well, all churches have their pedophiles the catholic church isn’t the only one..WELL, I got news for the flock, I don’t know of another religion that hides their perverts, moves them all over the world, to rape and molest the poor innocent children..the flock has been brainwashed and are part of the problem because by giving money to this church they are enabling the Catholic church to continue to hide these pedophiles. Why are not these religious perverts in Jail? Any other molesters would have been put in prison long ago. Why are not churches with known pedophile priests put on the list of sexual assault felons homes? And people got all hyper about that alleged pedophile coach in Penn. Are not the pedophile priests just as guilty? It makes me sick to think that even a penny of my tax $’s would go to this church! They are disgusting!
Tom Middleton
December 30th, 2011
12:25 am
Uh oh. Looks like somebody in Illinois is bucking to be the next pope. Then he can absolve all the child-molesting priests!
getalife
December 30th, 2011
12:39 am
moonbat,
Godsmack will get your blood pumping.
jm,
Better late than never.
Great game .
Baylor vs Washington.
The Thin Guy
December 30th, 2011
1:21 am
Your Thing is Your Thing. It’s not the Government’s Thing. It’s not The Church’s Thing. Do what you want with Your Thing. But keep Your Thing away from My Thing. My Thing don’t want nothing to do with Your Thing.
Remember a few days ago when Bookman was touting a “Surge” by The Teleprompter Reader of the United States. Well, guess what
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/brad-wilmouth/2011/12/29/abc-joins-nbc-citing-outdated-poll-showing-obama-approval#ixzz1hz67dIoj
Expect Bookman to issue a correction? Expect a armadillo to play a glockenspiel?
november cant come soon enough
December 30th, 2011
2:08 am
Never have been and never will be Catholic, but is a typical article from the immoral left in this country .
Katie Murphy
December 30th, 2011
4:05 am
the church places its bigoted teachings above the welfare of the children. (their next scream will be they arent bigoted)
Not surprising, given that the Pope in 2009 UNexcommunicated a bishop williamson, who is a holocaust denier. I guess that fits with their teachings also.
Sorry church, you cant have it both ways. You want state money, your teachings dont count. Why should my money go to help your bigotry.
Course their bigotry also includes their imposing their beliefs on others. LIke they did during the middle ages with the Jews – “convert or die”. (remember the word pogroms – murderous catholic riots against the Jews?)
All of this is really about using the gays as victims to deflect attention from the endless hidden molestation of children all over the world.
Just Google (country name ) – catholic church molestation
its endless. And even worse hidden for centuries. Google will show you all.
Also go to http://www.snapnetwork.org/ the Survivors Network of those abused by priests.
also
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2011-07-13-ireland-catholic-abuse_n.htmcatholic-abuse_n.htm the molestation is every where and the utter crime was how they hid it.
USinUK
December 30th, 2011
5:07 am
jm – “God and government don’t belong together in this (or almost any) fashion”
hear hear!
And, for all you folkses who are for vouchers, I hope this story gives you pause to think … once those private schools start accepting gummint money, THEY should have to start playing by gummint rules, as well …
Joel Edge
December 30th, 2011
5:18 am
They’re probably better off not being leased to the government.
“Catholic leaders in other parts of the country have made the opposite decision.”
And the others run the risk of having their members desert them.
marko
December 30th, 2011
5:38 am
I’d think an organization closely associated with drunken pedophiles wouldn’t be so rigid. Then again these are the fun lovers that gave the world chastity vows and the Spanish Inquisition. The Chastity thing didn’t work out so good for Sonny and Cher. I don’t think it’s going to work out any better for the bishops in Rome. Friendly advice, put away your gay apparel, and join the twenty-first century. We don’t burn witches anymore. In the near future we won’t persecute people just because they have peculiar ideas about how to play hide the salami.
USinUK
December 30th, 2011
5:39 am
“And the others run the risk of having their members desert them.”
Dara O’Briain made the observation that no one ever REALLY leaves the Catholic church … even if you’re an Athiest, you’re still Catholic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUVNZFylTdo
The Mitts are Off
December 30th, 2011
6:15 am
Obama would say, “let them eat cake.” I say let them eat corndogs.
USinUK
December 30th, 2011
6:36 am
“I say let them eat corndogs.”
yuk.
corn dogs and lima beans – two smells that make me want to vomit (blame the lunch ladies at Elizabeth Elementary, where I went in first and second grade … and, yes, it scarred me THAT BADLY)
Normal
December 30th, 2011
6:37 am
Good morning, all y’all,,,the wife made me come to work…damn!
But, being an Aquarius (sun) and Sagittarius (moon) I like this chart…
http://news.icanhascheezburger.com/2011/12/29/political-pictures-zodiac-the-next-level-in-crime-prevention/
…and doesn’t he look like the Pillsbury dough boy?
http://news.icanhascheezburger.com/2011/12/29/political-pictures-kim-jong-un-uh-oh-sea-of-fire-time/
Normal
December 30th, 2011
6:43 am
My new background…
http://icanhascheezburger.com/2011/12/30/funny-pictures-you-say-psycho/
I can relate…
http://history.icanhascheezburger.com/2011/12/29/funny-pictures-history-dads-who-have-daughters/
Normal
December 30th, 2011
6:44 am
Back on topic…
http://history.icanhascheezburger.com/2011/12/28/funny-pictures-history-technology/
and…
http://history.icanhascheezburger.com/2011/12/29/funny-pictures-history-blessed-art-thou-catcheth/
USinUK
December 30th, 2011
6:47 am
g’morning, Normal!!
me, I like this one:
http://news.icanhascheezburger.com/2011/12/23/political-pictures-queen-elizabeth-ii-god-save-the-wordplay/
Normal
December 30th, 2011
6:54 am
Good morning USinUK,
I wondered how that one would go over in England, but I spit coffee when I first saw it!
USinUK
December 30th, 2011
6:55 am
Normal – are you kidding??? Betty ROCKS.
stands for decibels
December 30th, 2011
7:15 am
mornin’.
Ya gotta love sheriff arpaio
roasting on an open fire? yeah, works for me.
stands for decibels
December 30th, 2011
7:17 am
Well, guess what
http://newsbusters.org
aaaand I stopped reading.
GT
December 30th, 2011
7:24 am
Religion should have no place in a political agenda. Every argument would be trumped by a Wizard of Oz answer that couldn’t be debated because that is what God says. In the modern world I know of few, if any, witnesses that have actually talked to God, certain none on tape, yet men and women with third grade educations can win any argument with an interpretation of what they thought they heard God say or swear they actually heard God say. How do you think Jesus would have handled the gay thing. All our sins are forgiven unless you are gay? I missed that one.
Mad Max
December 30th, 2011
7:28 am
– It’s a shame that Illinois church leaders decided that discriminating against gay couples was more important to them than continuing to provide much-needed services to orphans and neglected children. Catholic leaders in other parts of the country have made the opposite decision.
Jay – It’s not discrimination, it’s called having a set of values that is more important than money,
stands for decibels
December 30th, 2011
7:30 am
And Secular humanism is a religion too…
By the way, does anyone outside of the right wing echo chamber make this stupid, tiresome, “I know you are but what am I?” argument? I don’t’ think so, but if anyone’s got examples, I might be willing to revisit my kneejerk reaction to it, which is… well, not terribly favorable.
stands for decibels
December 30th, 2011
7:30 am
it’s called having a set of values
…that suck farm animals.
stands for decibels
December 30th, 2011
7:31 am
Anyway, gotta produce. Back later, if Jay’s got something good for us.
USinUK
December 30th, 2011
7:31 am
Mad – “it’s called having a set of values that is more important than money”
someone has never been to Rome and seen the Vatican museum …
bob
December 30th, 2011
7:38 am
How much government money did Obamas church get, god damn America !
USinUK
December 30th, 2011
7:40 am
bob – look it up for yourself, if you’re so concerned.
BKB
December 30th, 2011
7:59 am
Damn! I hate to say this, but Jay is correct.
It’s weird to agree with him. Oh well, the exception that proves the rule I guess.
Be well.
The Order of the Holier the Thou Business
December 30th, 2011
8:00 am
bob,
Pat Robertson called. He said you’ve been slacking off on your tithing.
Common Sense isn't very Common
December 30th, 2011
8:02 am
USinUK – you went to Elizabeth Elementary? Was that in Cobb County?
Woody
December 30th, 2011
8:05 am
There are a minority of us who feel deeply that ‘The Church’ (meaning the body of all believers) must be based firmly on inclusion. To seek to exclude others is itself a sin (defined as a distancing from God) of great magnitude. Just wanted to let y’all know we’re out here. Anyway, this act by some representatives of the Catholic church sounds like an act of self-hatred perpetrated by persons horrified by their own sexual impulses. We should love them and include them, too.
GT
December 30th, 2011
8:06 am
The Catholic Church has a history of wading into political waters. The Baptist do it in Georgia and the south. They filter the Bible for us that can’t read, micro the words to fit their agendas and allow for the sins of war and capital punishment, divorce with their blessings. They hide priest and ministries from the light of the same justice they push off on others. I have often said that if God wanted to stop anything in this world he certainly doesn’t need to help of our misinterpretations to get the job done.
Rick in Grayson
December 30th, 2011
8:08 am
Why does the US allow tax deductions to churches/house of worship that practice any form of discrimination or don’t strictly uphold US laws?
USinUK
December 30th, 2011
8:09 am
Common Sense – why, yes it was … off Canton Road and … ummm … maybe Sawyer? I don’t know – they tore it down decades ago …
USinUK
December 30th, 2011
8:11 am
Rick – the bigger question is why should churches that are politically active receive tax-free status …
Common Sense isn't very Common
December 30th, 2011
8:12 am
UsinUK – you went to school a few blocks from where I grew up (if I ever did) near the hospital.
Hey neighbor
kawasaki kid
December 30th, 2011
8:12 am
Conservatives like to make a big deal out of “standing on priciple”, and that’s what the Illinois religious nuts are doing, taking a stand. Too bad the principle on which they stand is indefensible, and hurtful to the many who truly need some help.
USinUK
December 30th, 2011
8:17 am
howdy neighbor!!! (it turns out that Bosch and I used to shop for records at Treasure Island on 41 … did you go there, too???)
Common Sense isn't very Common
December 30th, 2011
8:19 am
UsinUK – I worked at TI in high school around ‘73.
My best friend worked in records then
Corey
December 30th, 2011
8:21 am
@bob
December 30th, 2011
7:38 am
… another victim of ODS (Obama Derangement Syndrome).
USinUK
December 30th, 2011
8:26 am
Common – yay!!! then your family may have also had dinner at Red Lobster (the one near Life college) … that was always our fancy-pants night out when I was a kid …
Normal
December 30th, 2011
8:28 am
http://www.uclick.com/client/atl/lc/
RLJ
December 30th, 2011
8:28 am
To see both sides, the RCC has every right not to do anything that violates its own doctrines and beliefs and should not be forced by government to do so. However, when a church or religious entity accepts money from the government, it should understand that strings are attached. It is best that churches not do so.
Paul
December 30th, 2011
8:32 am
Rick in Grayson
Because it’s not that simple. Many religions that don’t ordain women or men, that have women in charge of women’s auxiliaries. Women aren’t monks. Women don’t conduct Passover. That’s where part of the gov’t not interfering with religion comes in.
But as I wrote yesterday:
I’ve no problem with the ‘take public funds, be subject to public policy’ argument. But as I noted some time before, this is just the tip of the iceberg. Other, more serious issues, wait in the background.
Religious institutions do not have to receive public funds to have legitimate concerns with legislating SSM on a par with traditional marriage. This was illustrated in the arguments over Prop 8 in California.
It’s not just about losing funding for services. Being denied tax-exempt status on the basis of discrimination is a real possibility. The Supreme Court of Calif held that SSM is a basic and fundamental right on a par in every respect with traditional marriage. This was held partially on the basis of the Calif Constitution. If an organization denies fundamental rights, it can lose tax-exempt status. The Catholic Church ended adoptions in Massachusetts years ago on the basis Massachusetts demanded they allow gay couples to adopt. The Massachusetts court decisions and framework of laws let Catholic lawyers they would be in for a lengthy lawsuit and could not guarantee victory.
Yes, this it the tip of the deeper issues regarding this topic. It is also why I have advocated churches perform marriage for whichever couples they wish and government agencies perform civil unions (not marriages) for whomever they wish, for I think many individuals and organizations have agendas that go far beyond a desire for equal treatment under the law.
and
Interesting line from the NY Times article: “The Catholic providers offered to refer same-sex couples to other agencies (as they had been doing for unmarried couples), but that was not acceptable to the state, Mr. Marlowe said.”
So the Catholic Church was willing to interview prospective couples and refer them to other agencies but the state refused. Seems the issue is not about making sure kids get adopted.
Can’t stay long, getting ready to head out for a bowl game.
Mornin’ USinUK! Keep those recipes coming!
Normal
December 30th, 2011
8:32 am
http://www.uclick.com/client/atl/ad/
USinUK
December 30th, 2011
8:33 am
Paul – am posting a FAB one tomorrow for New Year’s Eve … smoked salmon pate … nomnomnom
Normal
December 30th, 2011
8:34 am
USinUK
December 30th, 2011
8:26 am
USinUK,
I used to take my family there too before they put the one up in Towne Center…
Common Sense isn't very Common
December 30th, 2011
8:36 am
UsinUK – Red Lobster? we were lucky to have Krystals or Village Inn Pizza
Common Sense isn't very Common
December 30th, 2011
8:38 am
Normal – Town Center? Hell, I helped extend the stretch of I-75 to Cartersville after high school.
Goes to show how old I am LOL
USinUK
December 30th, 2011
8:39 am
VILLAGE INN!!! the one with the slide??? I was too young to go down it, but my sister and brother did …
now, it’s the Marietta Diner – one of the best breakfast places around!
Normal – ahhhh … you’re up yonder near my brother if you’re going to Towne Center …
Southern Comfort
December 30th, 2011
8:40 am
Is it too late to play the Christian bashing card???
Peter
December 30th, 2011
8:41 am
Sure the church and religion make sense !
All man made stuff, and the ego and the discrimination that goes with man deciding what the Bible means.
Please tell me Jesus would discriminate, and not multiply the loaf’s of bread for the hungry gay folks.
independent thinker
December 30th, 2011
8:42 am
Jay left out a key fact- faith based funding for social programs using tax payer money was a top priority of George W. Bush as soon as he took office. From Americans United in February 2001:
On Dec. 20, President-elect George W. Bush invited some 30 clergy and other religious leaders to the First Baptist Church in Austin to discuss his commitment to public funding of religious ministries. Though the meeting was closed to the public and press, participants acknowledged that Bush repeatedly emphasized a broad range of proposals that would create partnerships between church and state.
“This is not a political meeting,” Bush told reporters before the formal discussion began. “This is a meeting to begin a dialogue about how to change people’s lives.” He added that he intends to focus attention on how the government “can encourage, as opposed to discourage, faith-based programs from performing their commonplace miracles of renewal.”
Yeah let’s see what gasbag Newt and other GOP luminaries have to to say about the constitutional dillemma of mixing taxpayer funds and religious organizations.
Peter
December 30th, 2011
8:43 am
Rick in Grayson. Being part of a church, or having your own church is one of the greatest tax scams ever.
Common Sense isn't very Common
December 30th, 2011
8:45 am
SoCo – Who’s bashing Christians? It’s the Catholics being bashed here
And since I was raised as one I get to bash
Joseph
December 30th, 2011
8:46 am
Again Jay your tripe is full of lies…. This has become a daily routine on your part. Studies do show that children raised by homosexuals result in an improper upbringing… A pro gay website would certainly tell you different but facts are facts…. Children are more likely to become homosexual themselves if they are taught at an early age that it’s ok to explore.. The “if it feels good do it” mentality. This results in STD’s on many occasions… I just don’t understand why is it that the government insists on giving special rights to homosexuals based on their chosen behavior????? And a dangerous reckless behavior at that…
Peter
December 30th, 2011
8:47 am
Poor Dusty doesn’t see the connection between, Bush, the GOP and Religion. She can’t see how the GOP uses Religion as a tool to confuse the GOP masses.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 30th, 2011
8:48 am
A new poll from the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press out yesterday shows that “progressive” is the most positively viewed political label in America, with 67 percent holding a positive view compared to just 22 percent who view the term negatively
That ought to blow a few heads apart this morning.
USinUK
December 30th, 2011
8:50 am
“based on their chosen behavior?????”
so, Joseph, when did you overcome your attraction to men and decide to be straight???
Peter
December 30th, 2011
8:57 am
The Catholic Church is not for Homosexuality, but forbid the priest’s to marry……so what happens they turn on the Alter boys, and they create a sick environment.
I am sure Jesus is not happy about that !
Normal
December 30th, 2011
8:58 am
Is Joseph afraid he’s really Josephine?
The Order of the Holier than Thou Business
December 30th, 2011
8:58 am
As someone pointed out before, all gay children come from the acts of heterosexuals, even if they are not both present at the time of procreation.
Southern Comfort
December 30th, 2011
9:07 am
Studies do show that children raised by homosexuals result in an improper upbringing…
I’m guessing you don’t happen to have a linkee for those studies, do you? I’m sure you could find studies that show that children raised by heterosexuals result in an improper upbringing too.
NoCom
You get first bash then!!!!
tireofit
December 30th, 2011
9:41 am
The Catholic Church is just another money driven business preying on peoples fears and/or lack of intelligence.
James
December 30th, 2011
11:01 am
I applaud the church for taking a stand on “moral grounds”, which happens to be the Holy Bible, the highest basis for moral grounds that exists. Compromise of godly standards is what causes the church to lose its efficacy and experience God’s disapproval. God loves the gay and lesbian community; but yes, he does disapprove of their choice of lifestyle. God will supply resources by some other means.Thank you Bishops, for taking a godly stand!
Peter
December 30th, 2011
11:37 am
Thank you Bishops for discriminating against folks !
Joseph
December 30th, 2011
12:16 pm
USinUK/normal:
Why is it that if someone doesn’t agree with them they attack you by trying to berate you as if they secretly have thoughts of perversion? I just don’t get it… LOL… It’s certainly no secret that homosexual’s tend to get STD’s at an alarming rate compared to the general public… Hence it is a chosen behavior just like drug use.. Of course you left wingers love to spew nonsense about people being born this way but that’s only to try and justify the perversion… Normal thinking people just to buy it….
Mr Right
December 30th, 2011
5:14 pm
It’s one sick world!! I got tired of Jays GOP and anything decent bashing that I seldom pay any attention to the junk he spews! Have a good 2012!
drdanfee
January 2nd, 2012
2:59 pm
Well we will most likely continue to suffer (individually? collectively? …as citizens? …as believers?) these contradictions and absurdities. Why? One of the rather big elephants in the room that always fails to get mentioned in the substance of the church’s traditional antigay belief system, not to mention its peculiarly vital animosity towards LGBT people with bodies. The obvious yet difficult raw truth is that the church has yet again inadvertently bumped into an unpadded highway railing on the roads where empirical truth, social fairness or justice, and traditional church doctrines intersect. At this particular time in history, LGBT folks happen to be occupying the middle of all these highways, both changed and traditional. Insofar as flat earth ideas about who LGBT people are, how they come to be among us, and above all, what LGBT people essentially are … (dirt? damage? danger? … any one?) continue to be a church gold standard, we are unlikely to see much common sense at work, let alone putting the interests of real children as our guiding real priority.
Let’s get practical for a passing moment. Perhaps the real underlying reason Catholic Charities cannot be allowed to rigorously screen gay or lesbian couples as adoptive parents (reminder, this is not a quick, simply process, but a lengthy, interrogative family/couple life study conducted by agencies according to detailed evaluation protocols) is simply that couple able to pass such a family study disconfirm all the nasty traditional claims that church doctrine continues to make or preach about LGBT people. The church may just be trying to protect itself from what could become a huge de factor reality test of its (probable) flat earth notions about queer folks. If that test showed what we are all pretty much learning as citizens, neighbors, and plain old human being in extended families with one or more LGBT family members, what would the church do with its really nasty beliefs then?
If this speculative scenario at all obtains, even for some similar instances, the roaring of this particular elephant in these particular rooms is even louder since the church cannot even admit to itself … or to us, believers and bystanders alike? … what the religious authorities are really defending. (Flat earth ideas about LGBT ‘disordered, sexual’ people cannot be allowed to be tested in any faith venue, or even maybe in any nearby venue. We certainly cannot sustain the disconfirmations likely to result when adoptive gay or lesbian parents with children, and their high likelihood of overall well-being, become even more widely known or published in the local faith communities?)
Meanwhile, church purity trumps the best interests of real world children. What a world, what a world. Alas. Lord have mercy.