In Illinois, a church-state conundrum of real consequence
Here’s the crux of the issue, as described by the New York Times:
“Roman Catholic bishops in Illinois have shuttered most of the Catholic Charities affiliates in the state rather than comply with a new requirement that says they must consider same-sex couples as potential foster-care and adoptive parents if they want to receive state money. The charities have served for more than 40 years as a major link in the state’s social service network for poor and neglected children.”
The Illinois diocese sees itself as a victim of religious persecution. “In the name of tolerance, we’re not being tolerated,” as Bishop Thomas J. Paprocki put it. The church believes that it should be able to use taxpayer dollars as it wishes, in line with its religious beliefs, even if its actions violate Illinois law forbidding discrimination against its gay citizens.
I would argue that the church is not being persecuted. It is not persecution to be held to the standards that are applied to every other contractor that does business with the state. To the contrary, the church is demanding “special rights” to violate the law and to use taxpayers’ money to do so. It’s akin to some church or social agency taking state money to run soup kitchens to feed the poor, but demanding the right to deny aid to black people or Hispanics.
The church, using its own funds, would have every right to refuse to assist in gay adoptions. The First Amendment gives it that protection. But by accepting taxpayer dollars, it accepts the conditions that come with it. As the Times reports, “Catholic Charities affiliates received a total of nearly $2.9 billion a year from the government in 2010, about 62 percent of its annual revenue of $4.67 billion. Only 3 percent came from churches in the diocese (the rest came from in-kind contributions, investments, program fees and community donations).”
A couple of other points:
– There is no evidence that children raised by same-sex parents are harmed by the experience. Quite the contrary. In other words, the church’s objection may be based on moral grounds in its eyes, but it cannot be justified in terms of policy or pragmatism.
– It’s a shame that Illinois church leaders decided that discriminating against gay couples was more important to them than continuing to provide much-needed services to orphans and neglected children. Catholic leaders in other parts of the country have made the opposite decision.
– Jay Bookman
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487 comments Add your comment
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
10:55 pm
Seems we got a lot of baloney being served by the wingnuts tonight. SO if anyone wants a late night snack…
http://www.wikihowl.com/baloneysandwich.html
Dusty
December 29th, 2011
10:57 pm
Keep Up
You did not answer my question. Are law officers supposed to arrest lawbreakers?
If the sheriff is going beyond the law, he is being investigated. Unlawful immigration is established as a federal law supported by state law in Arizona. I stand by officers of the law until they are proven guilty of injustice. The law is.not made at the moment by a bunch of activists who would arrest no one they support, criminal or otherwise.
josef
December 29th, 2011
10:58 pm
Thin guy
Ever see the film What’s Eating Gilbert Grape…? Kids are mean L’il b*Byers. Some grow out of it. Others, we can see, do not.
ODD OWL
December 29th, 2011
11:01 pm
The Pope helped coverup pedophilla in his own parish when he was the ArchBishop of Germany… PS… The Pope have those sandusky eyes too.. Just saying…
moonbat betty
December 29th, 2011
11:05 pm
Dang, Smelly ruffled a few feathers no doubt.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
11:07 pm
Dusty, well your claim is nonsense. No one said don’t arrest criminals. You can “stand” by an officer all you want in your nonsense world. The findings of the Justice Department concluded he was guilty and has removed certain powers granted his department by Homeland Security. A court found he impeded investigation and destroyed documents. Your sheriff has 2700 lawsuits against him just in a 3 year period. And he ignored dozens of alleged child molestation cases while pursuing his politically motivated assault.
Doubt_It
December 29th, 2011
11:10 pm
@moonbat – only in your world did Smelly ruffle feathers. Heck if you and Smelly don’t like Bookman’s blog, then why even bother to read and/or post? Probably what most are wondering is that if Smelly doesn’t care for Bookman’s opinions, then why bother to read/post on his blog. That you all would continue to read and respond on a blog with which you have total disdain is most stupefying to me.
Anywho…have a good night
Thulsa Doom
December 29th, 2011
11:14 pm
I come back and I see that ankle biter has been nipping at quite a few ankles tonight in his meltdown. Must not a had much of a Christmas. Seems like that little chihuahua sure can nip. He sure aint got much of a bite though. More like a big bark and a little bite.
Dusty
December 29th, 2011
11:18 pm
Keep up
So the Sheriff was investigated by the Justice Department which controls the Fed agency that is not doing the job it is supposed to be doing and that is controlling and removing ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS.
If the Sheriff has done wrong, so have the Feds. Both should do the jobs they were trained to do and neither is doing it correctly even as illegals flood Arizona.
I suggest that you start at the top with the Feds who are not doing their job and then “jump” on the AZ sheriff. Maybe then he would have time and help to watch out for little children and other LAWFUL citizens.
Thulsa Doom
December 29th, 2011
11:20 pm
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
10:55 pm
“Seems we got a lot of raw meat being eaten by the locknuts tonight.”
Doomy with the typo correction.
Thulsa Doom
December 29th, 2011
11:23 pm
Ya gotta love sheriff arpaio. Mr. Law and Order and the one who drives the bleeding heart libs nuts. Always ticking off the locknuts with his clampdown on criminals. 2700 lawsuits against him. All that means is that the prisoners got 2700 frivolous suits. Ole Joe must be doing something right.
md
December 29th, 2011
11:24 pm
“It is not about THAT difference. There are illegals from the north that no one seems to care about. ”
Seems is the operative word………makes no difference to me about the direction in which they came, skirting the system is/was the problem. And I have no problem letting them in……after they go to the back of the line and all other applications pending are processed.
moonbat betty
December 29th, 2011
11:25 pm
getalife:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_sxUDw4Yds
Thulsa Doom
December 29th, 2011
11:36 pm
“These poor people still support Barrack Obama. Doesn’t that say everything?”
I dunno if it says everything. But it says a helluva lot. Damn that was a funny post.
moonbat betty
December 29th, 2011
11:39 pm
thank you for your input, Doubt_It @ 11:10.
u2.
Jm
December 29th, 2011
11:59 pm
More government waste.
$3 billion for the catholic church?
OMG
Jm
December 30th, 2011
12:04 am
End religious subsidies
God and government don’t belong together in this (or almost any) fashion
Z
December 30th, 2011
12:23 am
The catholic church discriminates against gays but yet they let pedophiles priests remain in their churches. Why our government would give this church money, to handle orphanages for children is truly amazing. The Catholic church is a known haven for pedophiles with over 3000 pedophile priest and counting world wide. Not only does the Catholic church allow these rapist of children stay in the churches they move them to other churches when they are found out, where they can continue to rape children again and again. I don’t want one dime of taxpayer money to go to churches, any religions, especially to the Catholic church who continues to hide their perverts, while paying off the poor victims(a billion $’s and counting) whose parents must have been blinded by the harsh light, to allow their children to take one step through this churches doors. This is what they tell their flocks to say, well, all churches have their pedophiles the catholic church isn’t the only one..WELL, I got news for the flock, I don’t know of another religion that hides their perverts, moves them all over the world, to rape and molest the poor innocent children..the flock has been brainwashed and are part of the problem because by giving money to this church they are enabling the Catholic church to continue to hide these pedophiles. Why are not these religious perverts in Jail? Any other molesters would have been put in prison long ago. Why are not churches with known pedophile priests put on the list of sexual assault felons homes? And people got all hyper about that alleged pedophile coach in Penn. Are not the pedophile priests just as guilty? It makes me sick to think that even a penny of my tax $’s would go to this church! They are disgusting!
Tom Middleton
December 30th, 2011
12:25 am
Uh oh. Looks like somebody in Illinois is bucking to be the next pope. Then he can absolve all the child-molesting priests!
getalife
December 30th, 2011
12:39 am
moonbat,
Godsmack will get your blood pumping.
jm,
Better late than never.
Great game .
Baylor vs Washington.
The Thin Guy
December 30th, 2011
1:21 am
Your Thing is Your Thing. It’s not the Government’s Thing. It’s not The Church’s Thing. Do what you want with Your Thing. But keep Your Thing away from My Thing. My Thing don’t want nothing to do with Your Thing.
Remember a few days ago when Bookman was touting a “Surge” by The Teleprompter Reader of the United States. Well, guess what
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/brad-wilmouth/2011/12/29/abc-joins-nbc-citing-outdated-poll-showing-obama-approval#ixzz1hz67dIoj
Expect Bookman to issue a correction? Expect a armadillo to play a glockenspiel?
november cant come soon enough
December 30th, 2011
2:08 am
Never have been and never will be Catholic, but is a typical article from the immoral left in this country .
Katie Murphy
December 30th, 2011
4:05 am
the church places its bigoted teachings above the welfare of the children. (their next scream will be they arent bigoted)
Not surprising, given that the Pope in 2009 UNexcommunicated a bishop williamson, who is a holocaust denier. I guess that fits with their teachings also.
Sorry church, you cant have it both ways. You want state money, your teachings dont count. Why should my money go to help your bigotry.
Course their bigotry also includes their imposing their beliefs on others. LIke they did during the middle ages with the Jews – “convert or die”. (remember the word pogroms – murderous catholic riots against the Jews?)
All of this is really about using the gays as victims to deflect attention from the endless hidden molestation of children all over the world.
Just Google (country name ) – catholic church molestation
its endless. And even worse hidden for centuries. Google will show you all.
Also go to http://www.snapnetwork.org/ the Survivors Network of those abused by priests.
also
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2011-07-13-ireland-catholic-abuse_n.htmcatholic-abuse_n.htm the molestation is every where and the utter crime was how they hid it.
USinUK
December 30th, 2011
5:07 am
jm – “God and government don’t belong together in this (or almost any) fashion”
hear hear!
And, for all you folkses who are for vouchers, I hope this story gives you pause to think … once those private schools start accepting gummint money, THEY should have to start playing by gummint rules, as well …
Joel Edge
December 30th, 2011
5:18 am
They’re probably better off not being leased to the government.
“Catholic leaders in other parts of the country have made the opposite decision.”
And the others run the risk of having their members desert them.
marko
December 30th, 2011
5:38 am
I’d think an organization closely associated with drunken pedophiles wouldn’t be so rigid. Then again these are the fun lovers that gave the world chastity vows and the Spanish Inquisition. The Chastity thing didn’t work out so good for Sonny and Cher. I don’t think it’s going to work out any better for the bishops in Rome. Friendly advice, put away your gay apparel, and join the twenty-first century. We don’t burn witches anymore. In the near future we won’t persecute people just because they have peculiar ideas about how to play hide the salami.
USinUK
December 30th, 2011
5:39 am
“And the others run the risk of having their members desert them.”
Dara O’Briain made the observation that no one ever REALLY leaves the Catholic church … even if you’re an Athiest, you’re still Catholic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUVNZFylTdo
The Mitts are Off
December 30th, 2011
6:15 am
Obama would say, “let them eat cake.” I say let them eat corndogs.
USinUK
December 30th, 2011
6:36 am
“I say let them eat corndogs.”
yuk.
corn dogs and lima beans – two smells that make me want to vomit (blame the lunch ladies at Elizabeth Elementary, where I went in first and second grade … and, yes, it scarred me THAT BADLY)
Normal
December 30th, 2011
6:37 am
Good morning, all y’all,,,the wife made me come to work…damn!
But, being an Aquarius (sun) and Sagittarius (moon) I like this chart…
http://news.icanhascheezburger.com/2011/12/29/political-pictures-zodiac-the-next-level-in-crime-prevention/
…and doesn’t he look like the Pillsbury dough boy?
http://news.icanhascheezburger.com/2011/12/29/political-pictures-kim-jong-un-uh-oh-sea-of-fire-time/
Normal
December 30th, 2011
6:43 am
My new background…
http://icanhascheezburger.com/2011/12/30/funny-pictures-you-say-psycho/
I can relate…
http://history.icanhascheezburger.com/2011/12/29/funny-pictures-history-dads-who-have-daughters/
Normal
December 30th, 2011
6:44 am
Back on topic…
http://history.icanhascheezburger.com/2011/12/28/funny-pictures-history-technology/
and…
http://history.icanhascheezburger.com/2011/12/29/funny-pictures-history-blessed-art-thou-catcheth/
USinUK
December 30th, 2011
6:47 am
g’morning, Normal!!
me, I like this one:
http://news.icanhascheezburger.com/2011/12/23/political-pictures-queen-elizabeth-ii-god-save-the-wordplay/
Normal
December 30th, 2011
6:54 am
Good morning USinUK,
I wondered how that one would go over in England, but I spit coffee when I first saw it!
USinUK
December 30th, 2011
6:55 am
Normal – are you kidding??? Betty ROCKS.
stands for decibels
December 30th, 2011
7:15 am
mornin’.
Ya gotta love sheriff arpaio
roasting on an open fire? yeah, works for me.
stands for decibels
December 30th, 2011
7:17 am
Well, guess what
http://newsbusters.org
aaaand I stopped reading.
GT
December 30th, 2011
7:24 am
Religion should have no place in a political agenda. Every argument would be trumped by a Wizard of Oz answer that couldn’t be debated because that is what God says. In the modern world I know of few, if any, witnesses that have actually talked to God, certain none on tape, yet men and women with third grade educations can win any argument with an interpretation of what they thought they heard God say or swear they actually heard God say. How do you think Jesus would have handled the gay thing. All our sins are forgiven unless you are gay? I missed that one.
Mad Max
December 30th, 2011
7:28 am
– It’s a shame that Illinois church leaders decided that discriminating against gay couples was more important to them than continuing to provide much-needed services to orphans and neglected children. Catholic leaders in other parts of the country have made the opposite decision.
Jay – It’s not discrimination, it’s called having a set of values that is more important than money,
stands for decibels
December 30th, 2011
7:30 am
And Secular humanism is a religion too…
By the way, does anyone outside of the right wing echo chamber make this stupid, tiresome, “I know you are but what am I?” argument? I don’t’ think so, but if anyone’s got examples, I might be willing to revisit my kneejerk reaction to it, which is… well, not terribly favorable.
stands for decibels
December 30th, 2011
7:30 am
it’s called having a set of values
…that suck farm animals.
stands for decibels
December 30th, 2011
7:31 am
Anyway, gotta produce. Back later, if Jay’s got something good for us.
USinUK
December 30th, 2011
7:31 am
Mad – “it’s called having a set of values that is more important than money”
someone has never been to Rome and seen the Vatican museum …
bob
December 30th, 2011
7:38 am
How much government money did Obamas church get, god damn America !
USinUK
December 30th, 2011
7:40 am
bob – look it up for yourself, if you’re so concerned.
BKB
December 30th, 2011
7:59 am
Damn! I hate to say this, but Jay is correct.
It’s weird to agree with him. Oh well, the exception that proves the rule I guess.
Be well.
The Order of the Holier the Thou Business
December 30th, 2011
8:00 am
bob,
Pat Robertson called. He said you’ve been slacking off on your tithing.
Common Sense isn't very Common
December 30th, 2011
8:02 am
USinUK – you went to Elizabeth Elementary? Was that in Cobb County?
Woody
December 30th, 2011
8:05 am
There are a minority of us who feel deeply that ‘The Church’ (meaning the body of all believers) must be based firmly on inclusion. To seek to exclude others is itself a sin (defined as a distancing from God) of great magnitude. Just wanted to let y’all know we’re out here. Anyway, this act by some representatives of the Catholic church sounds like an act of self-hatred perpetrated by persons horrified by their own sexual impulses. We should love them and include them, too.
GT
December 30th, 2011
8:06 am
The Catholic Church has a history of wading into political waters. The Baptist do it in Georgia and the south. They filter the Bible for us that can’t read, micro the words to fit their agendas and allow for the sins of war and capital punishment, divorce with their blessings. They hide priest and ministries from the light of the same justice they push off on others. I have often said that if God wanted to stop anything in this world he certainly doesn’t need to help of our misinterpretations to get the job done.
Rick in Grayson
December 30th, 2011
8:08 am
Why does the US allow tax deductions to churches/house of worship that practice any form of discrimination or don’t strictly uphold US laws?
USinUK
December 30th, 2011
8:09 am
Common Sense – why, yes it was … off Canton Road and … ummm … maybe Sawyer? I don’t know – they tore it down decades ago …
USinUK
December 30th, 2011
8:11 am
Rick – the bigger question is why should churches that are politically active receive tax-free status …
Common Sense isn't very Common
December 30th, 2011
8:12 am
UsinUK – you went to school a few blocks from where I grew up (if I ever did) near the hospital.
Hey neighbor
kawasaki kid
December 30th, 2011
8:12 am
Conservatives like to make a big deal out of “standing on priciple”, and that’s what the Illinois religious nuts are doing, taking a stand. Too bad the principle on which they stand is indefensible, and hurtful to the many who truly need some help.
USinUK
December 30th, 2011
8:17 am
howdy neighbor!!! (it turns out that Bosch and I used to shop for records at Treasure Island on 41 … did you go there, too???)
Common Sense isn't very Common
December 30th, 2011
8:19 am
UsinUK – I worked at TI in high school around ‘73.
My best friend worked in records then
Corey
December 30th, 2011
8:21 am
@bob
December 30th, 2011
7:38 am
… another victim of ODS (Obama Derangement Syndrome).
USinUK
December 30th, 2011
8:26 am
Common – yay!!! then your family may have also had dinner at Red Lobster (the one near Life college) … that was always our fancy-pants night out when I was a kid …
Normal
December 30th, 2011
8:28 am
http://www.uclick.com/client/atl/lc/
RLJ
December 30th, 2011
8:28 am
To see both sides, the RCC has every right not to do anything that violates its own doctrines and beliefs and should not be forced by government to do so. However, when a church or religious entity accepts money from the government, it should understand that strings are attached. It is best that churches not do so.
Paul
December 30th, 2011
8:32 am
Rick in Grayson
Because it’s not that simple. Many religions that don’t ordain women or men, that have women in charge of women’s auxiliaries. Women aren’t monks. Women don’t conduct Passover. That’s where part of the gov’t not interfering with religion comes in.
But as I wrote yesterday:
I’ve no problem with the ‘take public funds, be subject to public policy’ argument. But as I noted some time before, this is just the tip of the iceberg. Other, more serious issues, wait in the background.
Religious institutions do not have to receive public funds to have legitimate concerns with legislating SSM on a par with traditional marriage. This was illustrated in the arguments over Prop 8 in California.
It’s not just about losing funding for services. Being denied tax-exempt status on the basis of discrimination is a real possibility. The Supreme Court of Calif held that SSM is a basic and fundamental right on a par in every respect with traditional marriage. This was held partially on the basis of the Calif Constitution. If an organization denies fundamental rights, it can lose tax-exempt status. The Catholic Church ended adoptions in Massachusetts years ago on the basis Massachusetts demanded they allow gay couples to adopt. The Massachusetts court decisions and framework of laws let Catholic lawyers they would be in for a lengthy lawsuit and could not guarantee victory.
Yes, this it the tip of the deeper issues regarding this topic. It is also why I have advocated churches perform marriage for whichever couples they wish and government agencies perform civil unions (not marriages) for whomever they wish, for I think many individuals and organizations have agendas that go far beyond a desire for equal treatment under the law.
and
Interesting line from the NY Times article: “The Catholic providers offered to refer same-sex couples to other agencies (as they had been doing for unmarried couples), but that was not acceptable to the state, Mr. Marlowe said.”
So the Catholic Church was willing to interview prospective couples and refer them to other agencies but the state refused. Seems the issue is not about making sure kids get adopted.
Can’t stay long, getting ready to head out for a bowl game.
Mornin’ USinUK! Keep those recipes coming!
Normal
December 30th, 2011
8:32 am
http://www.uclick.com/client/atl/ad/
USinUK
December 30th, 2011
8:33 am
Paul – am posting a FAB one tomorrow for New Year’s Eve … smoked salmon pate … nomnomnom
Normal
December 30th, 2011
8:34 am
USinUK
December 30th, 2011
8:26 am
USinUK,
I used to take my family there too before they put the one up in Towne Center…
Common Sense isn't very Common
December 30th, 2011
8:36 am
UsinUK – Red Lobster? we were lucky to have Krystals or Village Inn Pizza
Common Sense isn't very Common
December 30th, 2011
8:38 am
Normal – Town Center? Hell, I helped extend the stretch of I-75 to Cartersville after high school.
Goes to show how old I am LOL
USinUK
December 30th, 2011
8:39 am
VILLAGE INN!!! the one with the slide??? I was too young to go down it, but my sister and brother did …
now, it’s the Marietta Diner – one of the best breakfast places around!
Normal – ahhhh … you’re up yonder near my brother if you’re going to Towne Center …
Southern Comfort
December 30th, 2011
8:40 am
Is it too late to play the Christian bashing card???
Peter
December 30th, 2011
8:41 am
Sure the church and religion make sense !
All man made stuff, and the ego and the discrimination that goes with man deciding what the Bible means.
Please tell me Jesus would discriminate, and not multiply the loaf’s of bread for the hungry gay folks.
independent thinker
December 30th, 2011
8:42 am
Jay left out a key fact- faith based funding for social programs using tax payer money was a top priority of George W. Bush as soon as he took office. From Americans United in February 2001:
On Dec. 20, President-elect George W. Bush invited some 30 clergy and other religious leaders to the First Baptist Church in Austin to discuss his commitment to public funding of religious ministries. Though the meeting was closed to the public and press, participants acknowledged that Bush repeatedly emphasized a broad range of proposals that would create partnerships between church and state.
“This is not a political meeting,” Bush told reporters before the formal discussion began. “This is a meeting to begin a dialogue about how to change people’s lives.” He added that he intends to focus attention on how the government “can encourage, as opposed to discourage, faith-based programs from performing their commonplace miracles of renewal.”
Yeah let’s see what gasbag Newt and other GOP luminaries have to to say about the constitutional dillemma of mixing taxpayer funds and religious organizations.
Peter
December 30th, 2011
8:43 am
Rick in Grayson. Being part of a church, or having your own church is one of the greatest tax scams ever.
Common Sense isn't very Common
December 30th, 2011
8:45 am
SoCo – Who’s bashing Christians? It’s the Catholics being bashed here
And since I was raised as one I get to bash
Joseph
December 30th, 2011
8:46 am
Again Jay your tripe is full of lies…. This has become a daily routine on your part. Studies do show that children raised by homosexuals result in an improper upbringing… A pro gay website would certainly tell you different but facts are facts…. Children are more likely to become homosexual themselves if they are taught at an early age that it’s ok to explore.. The “if it feels good do it” mentality. This results in STD’s on many occasions… I just don’t understand why is it that the government insists on giving special rights to homosexuals based on their chosen behavior????? And a dangerous reckless behavior at that…
Peter
December 30th, 2011
8:47 am
Poor Dusty doesn’t see the connection between, Bush, the GOP and Religion. She can’t see how the GOP uses Religion as a tool to confuse the GOP masses.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 30th, 2011
8:48 am
A new poll from the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press out yesterday shows that “progressive” is the most positively viewed political label in America, with 67 percent holding a positive view compared to just 22 percent who view the term negatively
That ought to blow a few heads apart this morning.
USinUK
December 30th, 2011
8:50 am
“based on their chosen behavior?????”
so, Joseph, when did you overcome your attraction to men and decide to be straight???
Peter
December 30th, 2011
8:57 am
The Catholic Church is not for Homosexuality, but forbid the priest’s to marry……so what happens they turn on the Alter boys, and they create a sick environment.
I am sure Jesus is not happy about that !
Normal
December 30th, 2011
8:58 am
Is Joseph afraid he’s really Josephine?
The Order of the Holier than Thou Business
December 30th, 2011
8:58 am
As someone pointed out before, all gay children come from the acts of heterosexuals, even if they are not both present at the time of procreation.
Southern Comfort
December 30th, 2011
9:07 am
Studies do show that children raised by homosexuals result in an improper upbringing…
I’m guessing you don’t happen to have a linkee for those studies, do you? I’m sure you could find studies that show that children raised by heterosexuals result in an improper upbringing too.
NoCom
You get first bash then!!!!
tireofit
December 30th, 2011
9:41 am
The Catholic Church is just another money driven business preying on peoples fears and/or lack of intelligence.
James
December 30th, 2011
11:01 am
I applaud the church for taking a stand on “moral grounds”, which happens to be the Holy Bible, the highest basis for moral grounds that exists. Compromise of godly standards is what causes the church to lose its efficacy and experience God’s disapproval. God loves the gay and lesbian community; but yes, he does disapprove of their choice of lifestyle. God will supply resources by some other means.Thank you Bishops, for taking a godly stand!
Peter
December 30th, 2011
11:37 am
Thank you Bishops for discriminating against folks !
Joseph
December 30th, 2011
12:16 pm
USinUK/normal:
Why is it that if someone doesn’t agree with them they attack you by trying to berate you as if they secretly have thoughts of perversion? I just don’t get it… LOL… It’s certainly no secret that homosexual’s tend to get STD’s at an alarming rate compared to the general public… Hence it is a chosen behavior just like drug use.. Of course you left wingers love to spew nonsense about people being born this way but that’s only to try and justify the perversion… Normal thinking people just to buy it….
Mr Right
December 30th, 2011
5:14 pm
It’s one sick world!! I got tired of Jays GOP and anything decent bashing that I seldom pay any attention to the junk he spews! Have a good 2012!
drdanfee
January 2nd, 2012
2:59 pm
Well we will most likely continue to suffer (individually? collectively? …as citizens? …as believers?) these contradictions and absurdities. Why? One of the rather big elephants in the room that always fails to get mentioned in the substance of the church’s traditional antigay belief system, not to mention its peculiarly vital animosity towards LGBT people with bodies. The obvious yet difficult raw truth is that the church has yet again inadvertently bumped into an unpadded highway railing on the roads where empirical truth, social fairness or justice, and traditional church doctrines intersect. At this particular time in history, LGBT folks happen to be occupying the middle of all these highways, both changed and traditional. Insofar as flat earth ideas about who LGBT people are, how they come to be among us, and above all, what LGBT people essentially are … (dirt? damage? danger? … any one?) continue to be a church gold standard, we are unlikely to see much common sense at work, let alone putting the interests of real children as our guiding real priority.
Let’s get practical for a passing moment. Perhaps the real underlying reason Catholic Charities cannot be allowed to rigorously screen gay or lesbian couples as adoptive parents (reminder, this is not a quick, simply process, but a lengthy, interrogative family/couple life study conducted by agencies according to detailed evaluation protocols) is simply that couple able to pass such a family study disconfirm all the nasty traditional claims that church doctrine continues to make or preach about LGBT people. The church may just be trying to protect itself from what could become a huge de factor reality test of its (probable) flat earth notions about queer folks. If that test showed what we are all pretty much learning as citizens, neighbors, and plain old human being in extended families with one or more LGBT family members, what would the church do with its really nasty beliefs then?
If this speculative scenario at all obtains, even for some similar instances, the roaring of this particular elephant in these particular rooms is even louder since the church cannot even admit to itself … or to us, believers and bystanders alike? … what the religious authorities are really defending. (Flat earth ideas about LGBT ‘disordered, sexual’ people cannot be allowed to be tested in any faith venue, or even maybe in any nearby venue. We certainly cannot sustain the disconfirmations likely to result when adoptive gay or lesbian parents with children, and their high likelihood of overall well-being, become even more widely known or published in the local faith communities?)
Meanwhile, church purity trumps the best interests of real world children. What a world, what a world. Alas. Lord have mercy.