In Illinois, a church-state conundrum of real consequence
Here’s the crux of the issue, as described by the New York Times:
“Roman Catholic bishops in Illinois have shuttered most of the Catholic Charities affiliates in the state rather than comply with a new requirement that says they must consider same-sex couples as potential foster-care and adoptive parents if they want to receive state money. The charities have served for more than 40 years as a major link in the state’s social service network for poor and neglected children.”
The Illinois diocese sees itself as a victim of religious persecution. “In the name of tolerance, we’re not being tolerated,” as Bishop Thomas J. Paprocki put it. The church believes that it should be able to use taxpayer dollars as it wishes, in line with its religious beliefs, even if its actions violate Illinois law forbidding discrimination against its gay citizens.
I would argue that the church is not being persecuted. It is not persecution to be held to the standards that are applied to every other contractor that does business with the state. To the contrary, the church is demanding “special rights” to violate the law and to use taxpayers’ money to do so. It’s akin to some church or social agency taking state money to run soup kitchens to feed the poor, but demanding the right to deny aid to black people or Hispanics.
The church, using its own funds, would have every right to refuse to assist in gay adoptions. The First Amendment gives it that protection. But by accepting taxpayer dollars, it accepts the conditions that come with it. As the Times reports, “Catholic Charities affiliates received a total of nearly $2.9 billion a year from the government in 2010, about 62 percent of its annual revenue of $4.67 billion. Only 3 percent came from churches in the diocese (the rest came from in-kind contributions, investments, program fees and community donations).”
A couple of other points:
– There is no evidence that children raised by same-sex parents are harmed by the experience. Quite the contrary. In other words, the church’s objection may be based on moral grounds in its eyes, but it cannot be justified in terms of policy or pragmatism.
– It’s a shame that Illinois church leaders decided that discriminating against gay couples was more important to them than continuing to provide much-needed services to orphans and neglected children. Catholic leaders in other parts of the country have made the opposite decision.
– Jay Bookman
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487 comments Add your comment
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
2:27 pm
“or maybe there is no god”
Yes, maybe there isn’t…but then why ask why he’s not talking to you if he doesn’t exist?
Marco Luxe
December 29th, 2011
2:27 pm
When this happened in Massachusetts, the bishop ordered Catholic Charities to close its century-old adoption program, causing half the board of directors to resign in protest. In contrast to the bishop, the board wanted to place the welfare of children in need before Vatican dogma. Why don’t these princes of the church ask WWJD? To everyone else, the answer seems so easy.
lliberalefty
December 29th, 2011
2:27 pm
doggone
if youre invisible god is real does that mean the muslims invisible god is real too?
Dusty
December 29th, 2011
2:28 pm
Well, here we go again. To hell with the children and the helpless that are being ASSISTED by churches and other charitable groups. Tax em! Run ‘em down! The are REPUBLICANS!!
Nothing so ignorant as people who never attend churches/religious facilites but know ALL ABOUT THEM.
Children services, adoptions, etc. are sidelines to the main body of church life. They are added to help more people. The states have found that their services are better run than government agencies and are glad to get their help and subsidize them to get wider results.
I am sure the Catholic church has guidelines for adoption as do all agencies.. No matter the sexual orientation or anything else, some couples are not suited to raise children.
The fine line here is how much power should the government have over religious facilites versus the question of taking government funds (and control) to support the good outreach of legitimate religious efforts
I say let each case be judged and settled. That is why we have the justice system. It is not settled in a newspaper blog set up to disagree with any religious effort.
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
2:28 pm
“if youre invisible god is real does that mean the muslims invisible god is real too?”
Would have to be, he’s the same God
lliberalefty
December 29th, 2011
2:29 pm
doggone
peace my brother, i gotta go
Welcome to the Occupation
December 29th, 2011
2:30 pm
TGT: “plenty of evidence that shows children are best off being raised by a mother and a father”
Why do you insist on defining ‘mother’ and ‘father’ in strictly biological terms?
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
2:30 pm
“I am sure the Catholic church has guidelines for adoption as do all agencies”
And so does the state. If the charities are taking the state’s money, they are agreeing to abide by the conditions placed on using that money per state guidelines. No one is forcing them to take the money.
TGT
December 29th, 2011
2:30 pm
The dangers of gay adoption: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ro89nDn84ZQ
Quagmire
December 29th, 2011
2:31 pm
If the state doesn’t give me, I mean doesn’t give the Church that tax money. How can I supplement my income since people started leaving my Church………………………………………Eddie Long
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
2:31 pm
And Dusty rants but apparently without much comprehension about the original piece and the action of the Church……
No surprises there.
josef
December 29th, 2011
2:32 pm
lefty, norm and other snipers…
If you accept the concept of a personal G-d, which I do, whether or not yours speaks to you is no affair of mine. My “conversations” with G-d are personal and private and between us. Does G-d talk to me? On a daily basis. Do I talk to G-d? On a daily basis.
And I don’t trust anybody who says G-d told them this or that. That’s just a violation of professional confidentiality, imo.
AmVet
December 29th, 2011
2:33 pm
To reiterate George Carlin’s rhetorical question, why is god so bad with money?
His most ardent zealots constantly insist that he always needs more. And more. And more.
LOL.
The greatest, tax free Ponzi scheme ever invented…
DannyX
December 29th, 2011
2:33 pm
“It would be kinda funny though if there was a God and that was his written word because you pro homosexuality lifestyle folks would be screwed!”
So would all the divorced people!
Divorce is a CHOICE!
SwamiDave
December 29th, 2011
2:34 pm
The unfortunate thing is that kowtowing to a vocal, political minority is impeding services to those children in need. A better result would have been for Catholic Charities to be celebrated for what they do; not villified because their principles happened to be different than those you happen to support.
The fault surely doesn’t lie with those serving, but those unwilling to accept it.
Likewise, because no one has shown evidence of damage to children raised by gay couples could mean there is none or we simply haven’t quantified it.
-SD
TGT
December 29th, 2011
2:35 pm
The dangers ofsame-sex couples adopting: http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=1504
It’s akin to some church or social agency taking state money to run soup kitchens to feed the poor, but demanding the right to deny aid to black people or Hispanics.
Not it’s not, and that is an insult to blacks and Hispanics everywhere, as well as sound science. Homosexual behavior is NOT genetic and unchangeable. It is an outright lie to say otherwise.
Real Scootter
December 29th, 2011
2:36 pm
He talked to G. W. Bush once…and told him to invade Iraq…go figure
Now I understand why we went over there Normal.NOT!!!! And,good afternoon sir.
TGT
December 29th, 2011
2:36 pm
I mean “No it’s not…”
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
2:36 pm
” A better result would have been for Catholic Charities to be celebrated for what they do; not villified because their principles happened to be different than those you happen to support.”
They accepted money with requirements attached. If those requirements conflicted with conception of morality THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE TAKEN THE MONEY.
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
2:37 pm
“Homosexual behavior is NOT genetic and unchangeable”
And OF COURSE, you have proof of that…right?
ragnar danneskjold
December 29th, 2011
2:38 pm
“nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof” – sounds like Illinois has an equal protection problem to me. It has magnified homosexuality to the level of a state protected rite – isn’t that a clever pun? – to the detriment of a traditional religion. But then, nothing rational has come out of Illinois in the past 50 years, has it?
Darvoset spending
December 29th, 2011
2:39 pm
If you don’t like homosexuality, blame straight people. They’re the ones who keep having gay babies.
godless heathen
December 29th, 2011
2:39 pm
How many of you believers believe in the multiple Gods of the Greeks?
None?
Well, I just believe in one less than you?
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
2:39 pm
“to the detriment of a traditional religion”
It has nothing to do with religion. Those charities were state contractors. Contracted to provide state services. If they did not feel they could provide those services in accord with state requirments they should not have joined in the contract.
josef
December 29th, 2011
2:39 pm
SD
And I’ll say to you what I said to Bruno…I know three who’ll be glad to tell you about “damage…”
And you tent revivalist anti-religious zealots…
Do you ever listen to yourselves…mean, hateful, spiteful and damnatory…just like the ones your railing against. You don’t want tolerance, you want your own view to be the only view…hypocrites is what I’d call you if we’re going to degenerate into drive by, not-very-original sniping…
Normal
December 29th, 2011
2:40 pm
Liberalefty,
As you might have noticed, I’m not very big on religion, but I do believe in God. My stand has been you don’t need religion to worship God..
But I believe because, for me, there is enough evidence out there to confirm His existance. I don’t believe in Genesis, but I do see a wonderfully natural progression of evolution that is quite mathematical, leaving me with a sense that our being us has been guided.
But somtimes I feel(when grumpy) that God is like a kid who made model ships (and think of the ships as earth) He made (created) them, put them on a shelf to collect dust(thus evolve, in a sense) while He made another. Then after a period of time, He would take that original model ship from the shelf, float it on the pond and shoot the hell out of it with His BB gun(the end time). Simple logic…
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
2:42 pm
“(the end time)”
Well, you always have the choice to do as I do, and not believe in the end time.
DannyX
December 29th, 2011
2:42 pm
“Homosexual behavior is NOT genetic and unchangeable. It is an outright lie to say otherwise.”
Exactly! To prove it join us on “National Prove Its A Choice Day” on Jan.15th 2012. We will all change our sexual orientations on that day only, to prove once and for all that being gay is a choice. Don’t worry, on the 16th you just switch back to being straight. Can we count you in TGT?
ragnar danneskjold
December 29th, 2011
2:42 pm
Dear Doggone @ 2:39, happy new year. You are surely the first person in the history of the world to affirm that a Catholic mission has nothing to do with religion.
Real Scootter
December 29th, 2011
2:44 pm
His most ardent zealots constantly insist that he always needs more
Well they do share it with him AmVet! They throw the money in the air and what god grabs is his and what hits the floor is theirs.
ragnar danneskjold
December 29th, 2011
2:44 pm
I can understand the view of Illinois – if they allowed the churches to practice their beliefs, fewer children might wind up in prisons. And then who would need the government?
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
2:44 pm
“You are surely the first person in the history of the world to affirm that a Catholic mission has nothing to do with religion.”
Nope, too bad reading comprehension is not your strong suit. If it was, you’d have understood that it is the ISSUE that has nothing to do with religion.
Welcome to the Occupation
December 29th, 2011
2:44 pm
TGT: “Homosexual behavior is NOT genetic and unchangeable”
I agree that homosexuality is probably not genetic (or not entirely), though once it’s determined in early life I doubt it can be changed.
What I propose is UNLIMITED rights for gays and lesbians EVEN THOUGH it’s not genetic. It’s a choice and it should be supported just like the “CHOICE” many of us make for heterosexuality.
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
2:45 pm
“Can we count you in TGT?”
Or, simpler yet…TGT, just tell us when YOU made the decision to be heterosexual
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
2:46 pm
“if they allowed the churches to practice their beliefs”
And exactly when did Illinois STOP the churches from practicing their beliefs?
TGT
December 29th, 2011
2:46 pm
Yes Doggone, and I have posted such evidence here plenty of times before, but here I go again:
Dr. Jeffrey Satinover a graduate of M.I.T., Harvard, Yale, and the University of Texas Medical School; a practicing psychiatrist; conductor of research at the University of Nice; etc., has concluded that the idea of “sexual orientation” is fiction. He refers to a 1994 University of Chicago study which states, “…it is patently false that homosexuality is a uniform attribute across individuals, that it is stable over time, and that it can be easily measured.” Dr. Satinover adds that, “Studies across the globe that have now sampled over 100,000 individuals have found the same. We now know that in the majority of both men and women, ‘homosexuality,’ as defined by any scientifically rigorous criteria, spontaneously tends to ‘mutate’ into heterosexuality over the course of a lifetime.”
These facts support the idea of many that, homosexuality is–in a sense–chosen behavior; something that individuals have control over and can change if so desired. This idea is further supported by the fact that there are, of course, many people who have come out of the homosexual lifestyle. Dr Satinover continues that, homosexuals are “human beings, no different than you or me, who are, of course, sexual beings. Like you and me, their sexuality is broken in a broken world. The notion that ‘homosexuals’ are in effect a ‘different species’ (different genes) is ludicrous beyond belief. There is not the slightest evidence for that as anyone who actually reads the studies (not reports on the studies) knows.”
getalife
December 29th, 2011
2:47 pm
The video of Ben describing cheating death is very good.
It is peaceful but did not see that bright light.
You are at peace now Ben.
He was only 18.
TGT
December 29th, 2011
2:51 pm
Out for awhile. I’ll be back.
Venga
December 29th, 2011
2:52 pm
Unfortunately, the Catholic Church contrives these controversies as part of its political strategy to oppose marriage equality. Why, one might ask, have civil unions created a church-state confrontation in IL, but not in WA, CA, OR, HI, DE, NJ, RI, or NV? In Washington DC, the city had civil unions for some years and it caused no conflict with Catholic Charities. When the city upgraded from civil unions to marriage equality, suddenly Catholic Charities proclaimed a crisis. The crisis arises only when CC thinks it might be useful to score political points.
What contrived rubbish. There is no issue here. If Catholic Charities wants to act as a contractor fulfilling a government program with public money, it has to follow the same rules as everyone else. If it wants to do adoption services on its own using its own money – which is what “charity” is supposed to mean anyway – then it is free to tell gay couples to hit the road.
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
2:53 pm
““Studies across the globe that have now sampled over 100,000 individuals have found the same”
What studies? Someone’s conclusion from undocumented studies is not proof.
Dusty
December 29th, 2011
2:55 pm
One more time–today’s correction. Bush did not say that God told him to make war on Iraq.
Bush was using a tem picked up from Biblical literature about gog & magog which is a reference to picture any terrible chaotic time. Bush described the Middle East at that time in just such terms.
It was no more “God told him” than someone who names Cain, God, Lord, Lawdy or any other religious derived statement in conversation.
Can’t you people ever get any of your propaganda correct?
Normal
December 29th, 2011
2:55 pm
Josef,
You know me better than most here and you know I don’t snipe. As far as Christian religion goes, I hit it with a full frontal assault. There has been no bigger scam ever perputrated on man than Christianity.
But my studies have led me to a belief in “God”….and also a belief that only one “Religion” in this world has the right to exist. When a people and a belief are combined into one identity, with one God, then they, and only they, have that right. Israel has, throughout it’s history, had that honor and has suffered for it. The Jewish religion is one, and the only one, that you have to be born into. Sure, a Gentile can convert, but he will never be truly Jewish. It took me a long time to comprehend that.
The Jewish Faith is the one true “religion”, and the rest are just cults with political power.
josef
December 29th, 2011
2:55 pm
To the “it’s a choice” people
Yeah, I woke up one morning and said let me see what I can do to bring out the hateful pious people of the world to make my life as difficult as possible. I may be Jewish and have a Catholic education, but combined they didn’t put that kind of martyrdom in me…
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
2:56 pm
And, BTW, I don’t happen to think that beind gay has a single root cause. I think it can be genetic, or psychological, or congenital…or any combination of those
Adam
December 29th, 2011
2:57 pm
plenty of evidence that shows children are best off being raised by a mother and a father
Nuclear family, as in two parents. Could be same gender. NOT “mother and father.”
David Granger
December 29th, 2011
2:57 pm
“The church, using its own funds, would have every right to refuse to assist in gay adoptions. The First Amendment gives it that protection. But by accepting taxpayer dollars, it accepts the conditions that come with it.”
Excellent point, Jay…and completely correct.
“It’s akin to some church or social agency taking state money to run soup kitchens to feed the poor, but demanding the right to deny aid to black people or Hispanics.”
Another valid point. You could also add…it’s akin to a university or college accepting state/federal money but demanding the right to discriminate in their admission policies to achieve the right mix of racial and ethnic “diversity”. (Although, for some curious reason…though the Civil Rights Act of 1964 specifically states that this is unconstitutional…the courts have allowed it to occur.) Guess some are a little “more equal” than others.
Adam
December 29th, 2011
2:59 pm
josef: “Modern Languages” sounds rather vague and useless to me. Unless you are actually studying and learning 3-5 major world languages.
St Simons - we're on Island time
December 29th, 2011
3:00 pm
cmon religious conservatives, pep talk, huddle up.
Would Tim Tebow stomp his feet & not help the orphans
in the Phillipines just because he got no free gubmint monay? NO!
Would the Timmy of Tebow be deterred from giving a parent-less child
a home with parents? NO!
What would Tebow Do? You see, of all the many conservatives running
around in blue & orange costumes & funny hats, tossing balls around to
the amusement of circus-goers, Tim Tebow is the only one doing that
as part of his REAL JOB.
Now get out there and quit bein a hypocrite! GRrrrrrrr!
Tebow/Jesus 2012
Matthew 6:5
Adam
December 29th, 2011
3:03 pm
Basically, yes, as one other poster alluded to: If being gay is a choice, you can prove it by “becoming” gay for a day. Just try it out and see if you like it. Obviously, since it’s a choice, this should be no problem and you can decide for yourself if it has an appeal. Oh, and just dressing in drag doesn’t count. You have to go have gay sex. Come on, it’s ONLY a choice….
josef
December 29th, 2011
3:03 pm
Norm
You know me and you know how I feel about these things. Yes, you do snipe. You say mean and hateful things about Christians and it’s done with malice and malintent.
Christianity is but one search for meaning and understanding, no better nor any worse than any other. They are all deserving of respect and they are all deserving of criticism. I’ve been privileged (blessed) to have know men and women of good will from many faiths and lack thereof. I’ve known many of their adherents who are anything but.
You can reject an idea, theology, philosophy, etc. without being mean and hateful.
Welcome to the Occupation
December 29th, 2011
3:04 pm
josef: “Yeah, I woke up one morning and said let me see what I can do to bring out the hateful pious people of the world to make my life as difficult as possible”
I disagree with that logic, josef. People make all sorts of decisions that bring them great difficulty. Call me a Freudian here: I believe that we are ALL bisexual at a deep, fundamental level. “Normal” heterosexuality is just an add-on, an encrustration if you will. Sort of like other aspects of my personality that I take to be natural (e.g. being introverted, etc.) but which are not entirely formed in the womb.
As I mentioned above, the choice vs genetically determined debate is a trap. What we need to do is forcefully argue that the whole distinction is a sham and that gay rights need to asserted and guaranteed EVEN AS A CHOICE.
That’s the harder battle, but in the long run it’s the right one.
Dusty
December 29th, 2011
3:04 pm
The Catholic Church does recognize married people who want to be separated legally. It is called annulment. There is an office in Atlanta run by the Catholic church for Catholics who no longer wish to be married. That church does make changes which some of you have not noticed.
Normal
December 29th, 2011
3:08 pm
Need I say more?
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/vcy-america-urges-churches-train-children-fight-sodom-and-gomorrah-lifestyle
josef
December 29th, 2011
3:08 pm
ADAM
In my case it’s Romance, Germanic and Slavic as the concentration, with others as supplementary.
and being gay for a day…
Why do that when you can get the goodies and then go home to wife and kiddies and be a fine upstanding member of the community?
Lot of that going around…
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
3:10 pm
“The Catholic Church does recognize married people who want to be separated legally. It is called annulment”
First of all, an anulment is not a legal action. And secondly, an anulment is setting the record as if the marriage had never occured. It is not the church equivilent of a separation.
Thulsa Doom
December 29th, 2011
3:10 pm
keep up,
Plenty of reading here to back up my assertion. And some very poignant statistics. Educate yourself.
http://city-journal.org/html/15_3_black_family.html
TaxPayer
December 29th, 2011
3:12 pm
The non-mean-and-hateful thing for them Catholics to have done would have been to take them tax dollars and forward them on to a subcontractor that lacked their bias so those children in need of parents would not suffer at the hands of the church.
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
3:13 pm
“The non-mean-and-hateful thing for them Catholics to have done would have been to take them tax dollars and forward them on to a subcontractor ”
Or they could have just refused the connection to the “immoral” requirements and let the state find a more willing contractor.
AmVet
December 29th, 2011
3:14 pm
George’s bush was burning and he mistook it for god’s voice.
Normal
December 29th, 2011
3:15 pm
Josef,
I deny being mean and hateful…I’d call it ardent…and truthful. If, sometimes the truth hurts, then so be it.
I don’t call out the believer, I call out the belief and tell the believer to open their eyes a little bit. If they continue to believe that “stuff”, then who am I to deny them. I am the bringer of truth.
All I am really trying to say is that you don’t need religion to worship.
Thulsa Doom
December 29th, 2011
3:16 pm
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
2:39 pm
“It has nothing to do with religion. Those charities were state contractors”
Ragnar was right. Doggone you are indeed the first and only person in the world who thinks the Catholic religion has nothing to do with Catholic charities.
Quagmire
December 29th, 2011
3:16 pm
Slow day Jay, I will be back tomorrow when you have some good stuff
Welcome to the Occupation
December 29th, 2011
3:16 pm
Adam: “Obviously, since it’s a choice, this should be no problem and you can decide for yourself if it has an appeal. Oh, and just dressing in drag doesn’t count. You have to go have gay sex. Come on, it’s ONLY a choice….”
I just disagree (see 3:04). The problem here lies in our notion of choice. There is a vast range of things that we ‘choose’, but which aren’t the types of trivial or sudden choices like whether to eat a chicken sandwich or hamburger for lunch today. Sexuality comes under those ‘choices’ that are semi-unconscious or primal — those choices that choose you, so to speak, as much as you choose them, though for all that remain a choice all the same. The ‘choice’ of personality type is another similar example. I don’t sit down one day and decide I’m going to be an introvert or an extrovert. But nonetheless which of those things I become grows out of an intermingling of my own actions and external environmental factors early in my life.
I have a cousin who was taken advantage of by an older man at camp during adolescence. He once confided to me that he felt it was that early experience, the fact that it was with a man, that consolidated his sexual identity as gay. Not that I think that’s the normal case — I’m sure in many many cases the ‘decision’ is made much earlier in life, even early childhood, and in most cases probably does not involve any abuse.
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
3:17 pm
“All I am really trying to say is that you don’t need religion to worship”
But some people do. Just because you don’t, doesn’t mean NO ONE does.
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
3:17 pm
“Doggone you are indeed the first and only person in the world who thinks the Catholic religion has nothing to do with Catholic charities.”
I see that you, too, are deficient in reading comprehension.
Adam
December 29th, 2011
3:19 pm
WTTO: Call me a Freudian here: I believe that we are ALL bisexual at a deep, fundamental level. “Normal” heterosexuality is just an add-on, an encrustration if you will.
I am pretty sure a lot of straight religious people believe that everyone is straight and that bisexual and homosexual is just an add-on. Personally, I’m going with Kinsey on whether one can be straight, homosexual, or bisexual.
Normal
December 29th, 2011
3:20 pm
Josef,
Looking back on my posts, I still don’t see anything mean and hateful, but I respect you and call you a friend, so I apologize to you. I am sorry I have offended you.
Normal
December 29th, 2011
3:23 pm
Doggone,
I have found that many people find religion but few find God. They just stop at religion and take a stranger’s word for it.
josef
December 29th, 2011
3:23 pm
occupation
Of course I was being sarcastic.
“I believe that we are ALL bisexual at a deep, fundamental level”
I agree with that entirely. That’s why I don’t get really bent out of shape in the argument one way or the other. I’m sort of like Lilly Tomlin, and I paraphrase, when asked how she “got that way.” “You know, I’ve been asked that so much I’ve actually begun to think about it myself…”
Back when the early studies on the genetics of it were coming out, one of my girlfriends said, “oh, good! We’re birth defects. Where do I go sign up for my March of Dimes money?”
I can only speak from my own experience here, but I cannot recall a time in my life when I didn’t know. It’s just another part of who I am in my totality. Maybe genetic since two lines of my family do seem to have more than their “fair share” and of the nine of us kids, two are gay. That could be laid to environment, but ours in one of those way back family trees and from the 800s forward, we’ve had them spectacular enough to make the history books! Who knows?
Dusty
December 29th, 2011
3:24 pm
Doggone,
You can furnish all the explanations you want as to what the Catholic church is doing but married couples are separating..
I have a close friend who works in the Atlanta Synod office with a large staff from priests to clericals who work on annulments.. Those who qualify for an annulment are free to marry again I imagine they have to have a marriage license if they do. I don’t believe they could get a license if the annulment were not legal.
I’m not a Catholic so my information is second hand.
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
3:25 pm
“I have found that many people find religion but few find God. They just stop at religion and take a stranger’s word for it”
Yes, of course. That is always the danger with people who need rules to function.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
3:27 pm
Great work Thelma…… you cite an opinion article that recaps a lot of the dispute with Moynihan with little of it having to do with “welfare” and more to do with claims regarding single mothers and reaches a conclusion that “in the ghetto there is a growing feeling that mother-only families don’t work”. Perhaps you need to re-educate yourself as to what it means to provide actual proof of your assertion/proposition that “the welfare state would destroy the black family in advance and he was later vindicated” and the original claim that “all you have to do is look at generations of welfare families to realize that unconditional charity creates long-term problems.” You can of course post actual proof and not disputed opinion.
josef
December 29th, 2011
3:28 pm
normal
I am not offended per se. You say you don’t the believer but the belief. Think about that. If you have someone who adhers to a belief to the point that is a personal identification marker, what else would you call it. Just go back and put in the word “liberal” and then look at the attacks thereon and how much you take personal umbrage when someone comes in attacking the belief and but not the believer. It’s like Del calling for the eradication of liberals, “but not you, Josef.” It doesn’t pass the smell test, but that’s just my opinion.
AmVet
December 29th, 2011
3:28 pm
Normal, in my book, you are one righteous dude…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLy9U8gPKT0&feature=related
Welcome to the Occupation
December 29th, 2011
3:29 pm
Adam, would like to respond but have to run out. Will reply later. Ditto josef.
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
3:30 pm
“I don’t believe they could get a license if the annulment were not legal. ”
You need to dig into it deeper. If a couple ONLY gets a church anulment they are still legally married. They would have to ALSO get divorced.
If they get divorced, but don’t get an anulment they can legally marry again..but the church will not recognize their new marriage and they can’t be married BY the Catholic church.
Erwin's cat
December 29th, 2011
3:30 pm
Dusty you still need to get a divorce (legal)…usually the annulment (religion) comes after the fact….You can get a divorce and not an annulment and remarry, just not in the Catholic church…the Catholic church will only remarry you if you get an annulment…asking for annulment does not guarantee an annulment will be granted either…LOL checks must be written
josef
December 29th, 2011
3:31 pm
Doggone
@ 3:25
You took the words right out of my mouth…
Dusty
December 29th, 2011
3:33 pm
Wrong again, Normal. Christians find their churches a special place to worship God in peace.and joy with others. They are inspired to love one another (meaning all people) and they go out to do their best in the world.
You may call it “just religion’” but it is more than that. But one thing is true, no one should be “forced” into the love of Christian faith. It is offered as a gift. I’m sorry you see it as a burden.
josef
December 29th, 2011
3:33 pm
ZamVet
“Normal, in my book, you are one righteous dude…”
Well, like you, at least self-rightous. And what gives me the perogative to say that? A lifelong member of that club myself…
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 29th, 2011
3:34 pm
Forgot to add, but I do thank you for the effort to support the assertion.
Normal
December 29th, 2011
3:35 pm
Josef,
“Just go back and put in the word “liberal” and then look at the attacks thereon…”
Unless it’s against my family, I never take anything a persons says to me or about me. I was born with a deformity…I have no ego.
and as to Liberals, I poke fun at myself there, too…I posted this earlier…
“A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel.” .
josef
December 29th, 2011
3:36 pm
ERWIN’S CAT
@ 3:30
Either that or a Tiffany’s card…
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
3:37 pm
“You took the words right out of my mouth…”
It’s like the whole “idolatry” issue. Some people need a tangible object to focus on, and that’s fine…as long as they know the object is only a representation of that to which they are devoted. It’s when they the object itself is what they worship that they enter the realm of idolatry.
Erwin's cat
December 29th, 2011
3:37 pm
That is always the danger with people who need rules to function.
We as a society and species can not function w/o “rules”…be it moral, scientific, etc..no one can escape it at least no one has so far
AmVet
December 29th, 2011
3:37 pm
josef, as I often taught my son during his formative years, “Son be patient with people. Not everyone can be as charming, handsome and intelligent as you and I.”
Dusty
December 29th, 2011
3:37 pm
Probably you are right, Doggone. I only hear about the annulment part. I will have to ask more questions from Catholic friends.
St Simons - we're on Island time
December 29th, 2011
3:38 pm
On the other hand, I have a new respect for the conservative bloggers
here. I don’t see any of the respected ones defending this abhorrent
behavior of the Illinois Catholics, which is something, i guess.
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
3:38 pm
“We as a society and species can not function w/o “rules”…be it moral, scientific, etc..no one can escape it at least no one has so far”
Ok, I saw that objection myself. Let me amend it to this: That is always the danger with people who blindly follow rules and never question them
Normal
December 29th, 2011
3:38 pm
Dusty,
As I said above, you have the right to believe what you want to believe and I support that.
josef
December 29th, 2011
3:39 pm
Normal
I do, of course, give you loads of credit for poking at yourself, one of the reasons I like you so much. And, yes, you do have a pretty tough hide. And, just between the two of us here, we probably should have had this conversation elsewhere…
Erwin's cat
December 29th, 2011
3:40 pm
Fair enough Doggone
Doggone/GA
December 29th, 2011
3:40 pm
“I only hear about the annulment part. I will have to ask more questions from Catholic friends”
You don’t even need to do that. Take a line through Newt Gingrich. He has been married 3 times, and divorced twice. His third marriage is legal, but because his wife is Catholic, in order to have their marriage ALSO recognized by the church, he had to petition for anulment of his previous 2 marriages.
Normal
December 29th, 2011
3:41 pm
Josef,
“we probably should have had this conversation elsewhere…”
Yeah, but I’m at work right now and it’s a slow day…
AmVet
December 29th, 2011
3:42 pm
Are there any women here today?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOdARZ3bs0k
josef
December 29th, 2011
3:44 pm
AmVet
It IS a tough row to hoe, ain’t it?
Doggone
Yes.
Thomas
December 29th, 2011
3:45 pm
Are there any women here today?
many my friend, many
josef
December 29th, 2011
3:46 pm
NORMAL
Understood…
Normal
December 29th, 2011
3:49 pm
Josef,
By the way,
I just finished listening to “A Canticle For Leibowitz”, and what got me started today was The Catholic Abbot trying to talk the girl and her baby out of going to the Mercy Camp. Pain is pain and relief in any form is better than none, especially when you have radiation sickness and are going to die anyway. I just can’t figure the Church views on that…stirs me up a little. I’m going to listen to it again tomorrow. This audio book thing has given me a new perspective on a book I have read many times. I’d read it again but at home the only time I get to read is when I’m in the john…and I’m getting too old to sit on the crapper for an hour…
Common Sense isn't very Common
December 29th, 2011
3:57 pm
http://www.politicalcartoons.com/cartoon/cff9305f-286a-46d6-bc73-d1178017f9d9.html
If some had their way