In Illinois, a church-state conundrum of real consequence

Here’s the crux of the issue, as described by the New York Times:

“Roman Catholic bishops in Illinois have shuttered most of the Catholic Charities affiliates in the state rather than comply with a new requirement that says they must consider same-sex couples as potential foster-care and adoptive parents if they want to receive state money. The charities have served for more than 40 years as a major link in the state’s social service network for poor and neglected children.”

The Illinois diocese sees itself as a victim of religious persecution. “In the name of tolerance, we’re not being tolerated,” as Bishop Thomas J. Paprocki put it. The church believes that it should be able to use taxpayer dollars as it wishes, in line with its religious beliefs, even if its actions violate Illinois law forbidding discrimination against its gay citizens.

I would argue that the church is not being persecuted. It is not persecution to be held to the standards that are applied to every other contractor that does business with the state. To the contrary, the church is demanding “special rights” to violate the law and to use taxpayers’ money to do so. It’s akin to some church or social agency taking state money to run soup kitchens to feed the poor, but demanding the right to deny aid to black people or Hispanics.

The church, using its own funds, would have every right to refuse to assist in gay adoptions. The First Amendment gives it that protection. But by accepting taxpayer dollars, it accepts the conditions that come with it. As the Times reports, “Catholic Charities affiliates received a total of nearly $2.9 billion a year from the government in 2010, about 62 percent of its annual revenue of $4.67 billion. Only 3 percent came from churches in the diocese (the rest came from in-kind contributions, investments, program fees and community donations).”

A couple of other points:

– There is no evidence that children raised by same-sex parents are harmed by the experience. Quite the contrary. In other words, the church’s objection may be based on moral grounds in its eyes, but it cannot be justified in terms of policy or pragmatism.

– It’s a shame that Illinois church leaders decided that discriminating against gay couples was more important to them than continuing to provide much-needed services to orphans and neglected children. Catholic leaders in other parts of the country have made the opposite decision.

– Jay Bookman

487 comments Add your comment

Real Scootter

December 29th, 2011
1:19 pm

Enter your comments here

Real Scootter

December 29th, 2011
1:19 pm

Logical Dude

December 29th, 2011
1:23 pm

So, they couldn’t continue without taxpayer funds? hmmmmm. . .

Bruno

December 29th, 2011
1:25 pm

There is no evidence that children raised by same-sex parents are harmed by the experience. Quite the contrary. In other words, the church’s objection may be based on moral grounds in its eyes, but it cannot be justified in terms of policy or pragmatism.

I’m not 100% sure of that, Jay, but fully support your larger point that if you are going to accept tax dollars, you have to play by the rules.

Since when did the Catholic Church start needing our tax money??

Common Sense isn't very Common

December 29th, 2011
1:27 pm

I wonder where Sanitorium and Newt stand on this issue? :-)

stands for decibels

December 29th, 2011
1:27 pm

“Roman Catholic bishops in Illinois have shuttered most of the Catholic Charities affiliates in the state rather than comply with a new requirement that says they must consider same-sex couples as potential foster-care and adoptive parents if they want to receive state money.

well, they’re flaming a-holes, then.

Getting personal for just a moment, but I had firsthand experience with a Catholic church-based group in another state, that trained and assisted parents wanting to adopt. Their first official adoption (this was a somewhat lengthy process, and I was in the process while they were just getting under way) was to a gay couple.

That organization had no problem with same sex couples; I have no idea why these a-holes in Illinois do.

What a-holes. (Have I mentioned that they are a-holes? Because they are.)

Real Scootter

December 29th, 2011
1:27 pm

I don’t think the Gov. should be giving money to a church for ANY reason.After all they don’t pay any taxes.

Libertarian

December 29th, 2011
1:29 pm

“The church, using its own funds, would have every right to refuse to assist in gay adoptions. The First Amendment gives it that protection. But by accepting taxpayer dollars, it accepts the conditions that come with it.”

Totally agree Jay…but wouldn’t this also apply to planned parenthood’s ability to perform abortions or give out the morning after pill?

Adam

December 29th, 2011
1:29 pm

Roman Catholic bishops in Illinois have shuttered most of the Catholic Charities affiliates

Hmm, so much for being able to rely on charity instead of government when you are sick or poor!

TaxPayer

December 29th, 2011
1:30 pm

I thought charitable giving did not require the taking of taxpayer dollars. I learn something new every day about just what being charitable really means… to some.

stands for decibels

December 29th, 2011
1:31 pm

but wouldn’t this also apply to planned parenthood’s ability to perform abortions

Uncle Sam isn’t footing that bill.

Jay

December 29th, 2011
1:32 pm

Yes it would, Libertarian. Which is precisely why Planned Parenthood uses only its own funds for such services.

Welcome to the Occupation

December 29th, 2011
1:32 pm

In my opinion the Catholic Church should not whine about being the object of tolerance in this case. To hell with tolerance.

But at the same time, do we not do ourselves a disservice by refusing to acknowledge the difficulty that these new changes in societal norms represent for traditional institutions like the Catholic Church?

Ultimately it’s a good reason for eliminating any tax-payer funds at all going to religious institutions.

0311/1811

December 29th, 2011
1:32 pm

Jay:

Isn’t it in your opinion a violation of “church and state” principles for the Chatholic church to get those funds anyway ?

Libertarian

December 29th, 2011
1:33 pm

The underlying issue here is that the govt shouldn’t be giving money to a church or charity. We need to cut federal spending…here’s $2.9 billion we can cut.

godless heathen

December 29th, 2011
1:34 pm

“I don’t think the Gov. should be giving money to a church for ANY reason.After all they don’t pay any taxes.”

The Church is a pass thru. The Federal Government gives away so much money it has to have subcontractors to help.

Real Scootter

December 29th, 2011
1:34 pm

Hmm, so much for being able to rely on charity instead of government when you are sick or poor!

If the Gov. is supprting the charity wouldn’t it kinda be the same thing Adam?

Adam

December 29th, 2011
1:34 pm

Scout: Isn’t it in your opinion a violation of “church and state” principles for the Chatholic church to get those funds anyway ?

I would say it’s more of a “They shouldn’t” rather than “It’s unconstitutional.” That could just be me….

Libertarian

December 29th, 2011
1:36 pm

“Yes it would, Libertarian. Which is precisely why Planned Parenthood uses only its own funds for such services.”

Haha. I’m sure they keep their “abortion funds” in a different account from their “government funds.” So then, would it be ok for the catholic group to use the taxpayer money for gay adoptions and their own money for non-gay adoptions, in your opinion?

Adam

December 29th, 2011
1:36 pm

Real Scootter: If the Gov. is supprting the charity wouldn’t it kinda be the same thing Adam?

Ah, and thus we find that churches either have to not accept government funds at all to support the libertarian ideal of government not helping anybody.

But the point I was making was if the charities can’t stay open without government funding, then you can’t rely on them if you take all government funding away from assisting the poor or sick.

Normal

December 29th, 2011
1:37 pm

Wow! I really don’t know what to say about this. It is so dumb. All I can think of is “love God, hate religions”. Religions are an anchor to enlightenment.

Bruno

December 29th, 2011
1:37 pm

Hmm, so much for being able to rely on charity instead of government when you are sick or poor!

Adam–One important difference between public and private charity to me is the impostion of conditions. For example, the Salvation Army is happy to help you, but asks that you repay them later when you are able. Personally, I’m in favor of conditional charity. All you have to do is look at the generations of welfare families to realize that unconditional charity creates long-term problems.

Adam

December 29th, 2011
1:38 pm

Libertarian: So then, would it be ok for the catholic group to use the taxpayer money for gay adoptions and their own money for non-gay adoptions, in your opinion?

Sure. But then, they would not be saying “no gay adoptions.” Problem solved.

Real Scootter

December 29th, 2011
1:38 pm

The Church is a pass thru. The Federal Government gives away so much money it has to have subcontractors to help.

I’m not sure what you are saying godless.Could you please explain?

Adam

December 29th, 2011
1:39 pm

Bruno: For example, the Salvation Army is happy to help you, but asks that you repay them later when you are able.

Asks you or makes you? I am in favor of them asking, but not in favor of them enforcing it.

Adam

December 29th, 2011
1:40 pm

TimeForRealChange

December 29th, 2011
1:41 pm

I agree with Jay here. If an organization is getting federal funds, then they shouldn’t be able to discriminate like that.

However, as welfare programs have increased, charitable giving has decreased. And charities tend to do a much better job helping people than welfare. Maybe the answer to stop taking tax dollars just to hand them right back to people after the politicians have gotten their cut. Then the Catholics will get more private donations, and the gay and lesbian community can create their own charity to take private donations.

Or we can keep propping up a system that obviously isn’t working very well.

Keep Up the Good Fight!

December 29th, 2011
1:42 pm

For example, the Salvation Army is happy to help you, but asks that you repay them later when you are able

Perhaps. You may also have to sit through some religion and other indoctrination before you get your assistance, paid for by government $$.

stands for decibels

December 29th, 2011
1:43 pm

as welfare programs have increased, charitable giving has decreased.

cite, please.

King Of All

December 29th, 2011
1:43 pm

They have a moral dilemma. Like if Nazi shows up at the door and they are hiding a Jew in the attic they are not going to lie.

Normal

December 29th, 2011
1:43 pm

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it with religious conviction. — Blaise Pascal

Keep Up the Good Fight!

December 29th, 2011
1:44 pm

All you have to do is look at the generations of welfare families to realize that unconditional charity creates long-term problems.

Wow, you can tell by just looking at them and not looking at underlying issues and the real facts and situations. I bet it was painted on their faces by the broad brush.

theyeshaveit

December 29th, 2011
1:44 pm

It is a conundrum. The Catholic Charities were doing good work, but…”But” is always a big word.

I would like to see religious organizations pay taxes, too. How many “reverends” are there out there getting a tax break while starting up “theology” schools?

Finally, has anyone tweeted Tim Tebow of late? ;-)

TaxPayer

December 29th, 2011
1:45 pm

So then, would it be ok for the catholic group to use the taxpayer money for gay adoptions and their own money for non-gay adoptions, in your opinion?

I don’t recall them offering to do that.

Real Scootter

December 29th, 2011
1:45 pm

Adam

December 29th, 2011
1:36 pm

I gotcha Adam.Thanks

Libertarian

December 29th, 2011
1:47 pm

TaxPayer
1:45 pm

I don’t either. But this is a discussion, no?

Normal

December 29th, 2011
1:48 pm

You can safely assume that you’ve created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. –Anne Lamott

Evangelical Christianity, as everyone knows, is founded upon hate, as the Christianity of Christ was founded upon love.– H. L. Mencken

theyeshaveit

December 29th, 2011
1:49 pm

as welfare programs have increased, charitable giving has decreased.

cite, please.

sfd,

It may well be that charitable giving is down, but I believe the reason is the state of the economy. Was it just me, or were those Salvation Army folks ringing the bells harder this Christmas?

Erwin's cat

December 29th, 2011
1:49 pm

Can this be considered a sort of gov’t regulation that the church wishes not to comply and therefore limits it’s own contribution in order to meet the regulation

Is this a church or gov’t issue….who’s the real villain here?

Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)

December 29th, 2011
1:50 pm

Well, we’re the majority and if we don’t like Gay Marriage we should be able to make sure gays don’t get any of our money. It don’t matter what courts say, They’re being Activist if they want churches to let Gay couples adopt kids.

But I’m in a bind here. I hate the Gays and the Catholics about the same. So maybe we should make the Catholic churches stop molesting kids before they can get any our our money for anything.

Anyhow, I feel better already now that I’ve let it all hang out. Sometimes you got to let your hatred loose on something before you can feel good.

Matti's Grasp of Reality

December 29th, 2011
1:52 pm

TAX THE CHURCHES!!!

theyeshaveit

December 29th, 2011
1:53 pm

Matti,

See my 1:44.

stands for decibels

December 29th, 2011
1:54 pm

Was it just me, or were those Salvation Army folks ringing the bells harder this Christmas?

answer might be here…

http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20111126/BUSINESS/311260078/Volunteer-bell-ringers-needed-Salvation-Army-reduces-paid-collectors-cites-effectiveness

lliberalefty

December 29th, 2011
1:55 pm

my oh my, religion being used to deny people equal rights,lol.

Thulsa Doom

December 29th, 2011
1:55 pm

“It’s a shame that Illinois church leaders decided that discriminating against gay couples was more important to them than continuing to provide much-needed services to orphans and neglected children.”

That’s a pretty judgemental statement. There are plenty of Christians that believe that homosexuality is a sin, “an abomination before God” as one scripture says. Doesn’t mean they hate gays. Just means they believe homosexuality goes squarely against biblical principles and that they won’t do anything that endorses homosexuality. That’s all.

josef

December 29th, 2011
1:56 pm

JAY

If this is your attempt to get me BACK in your corner, you’ve succeeded (not seceded! :-) )

This is a no-brainer. The religious institution is free to teach and practice what it deems fit and should have every governmental protection thereof. If and when they take government funds (which I think they shouldn’t simply from the expediency that it creates a conflict of interests), then they are bound by the government’s attached strings.

lliberalefty

December 29th, 2011
1:57 pm

REDNECK

kids get molested in baptist,methodists,AME, unitarian,Jehovah witnesses churches too.

St Simons - we're on Island time

December 29th, 2011
1:58 pm

THAT’s the way to show those orphans you reeeally care, conservatives.

lliberalefty

December 29th, 2011
1:59 pm

thulsa

they are discriminating against gays…

Matti's Grasp of Reality

December 29th, 2011
1:59 pm

Blah blah plenty of Christians blah blah homosexuality is a sin, blah blah “abomination before God” blah blah blah.

Well then, THOSE people should politely decline any invitation to engage their own bodies in such activity, and mind their own G.D. business! Just sayin’.

Normal

December 29th, 2011
2:00 pm

In religion and politics people’s beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing. – Mark Twain

Religion can never reform mankind because religion is slavery. –Robert Ingersoll

…and lastly,

Religion is the fashionable substitute for belief. – Oscar Wilde

TaxPayer

December 29th, 2011
2:01 pm

I don’t either. But this is a discussion, no?

Planned Parenthood did offer to use only their own funds for abortions and to not use tax dollars yet you ridicule them and then offer up a comparable option for the Catholic Church as though they were not allowed said option.

Thulsa Doom

December 29th, 2011
2:01 pm

“Wow, you can tell by just looking at them and not looking at underlying issues and the real facts and situations”

No. Actually you can read books and statistics on what damage the welfare state has done to generations of recipients. You can start with the book written by former liberal NY senator Patrick Moynihan on the destruction of the black family by the welfare state.

lliberalefty

December 29th, 2011
2:02 pm

has this invisible non speaking god ever personally told anybody that homosexuality ius a sin?

Keep Up the Good Fight!

December 29th, 2011
2:02 pm

It’s a shame that Illinois church leaders decided that discriminating against gay couples was more important to them than continuing to provide much-needed services to orphans and neglected children.

v

Doesn’t mean they hate gays. Just means they believe homosexuality goes squarely against biblical principles and that they won’t do anything that endorses homosexuality. That’s all.

Well since discrimination does not mean “hate”, seems someone is trying to make a point that has no meaningful distinction.

Doggone/GA

December 29th, 2011
2:03 pm

“Planned Parenthood did offer to use only their own funds for abortions and to not use tax dollars ”

It wasn’t an offer. It’s a legal requirement. And my memory of it is that, yes, they DO keep the funds in separate accounts. It’s against Federal law to use taxpayer funds for abortions.

Real Scootter

December 29th, 2011
2:03 pm

Somehow I knew someone was going to make this a lib or con issue! :roll:

Keep Up the Good Fight!

December 29th, 2011
2:04 pm

You can start with the book written by former liberal NY senator Patrick Moynihan on the destruction of the black family by the welfare state.

Cause if its in a book, it’s gots to be true?

lliberalefty

December 29th, 2011
2:04 pm

thulsa

dont blame welfare for the decline of the black family. blame blacks themselves, not the guvment for their plight.

josef

December 29th, 2011
2:05 pm

BRUNO

“I’m not 100% sure of that,”

You may not be, but I know three who are.

lliberalefty

December 29th, 2011
2:05 pm

why dont god ever talk? cat got his tongue

AMusing

December 29th, 2011
2:07 pm

Religion appears to be the “science” for those that have no faith in reality.

Thulsa Doom

December 29th, 2011
2:07 pm

lliberalefty

December 29th, 2011
1:59 pm
thulsa

“they are discriminating against gays…”

That’s your opinion. In their view they are simply practicing their religion and in their views homosexuality is a sin. Neither you, nor me, nor josef or anyone else is going to change their minds on something they believe is very plainly written in the bible. It is what it is.

This is much ado about nothing. The state prohibits discrimination against gays. The catholic church and others who disagree with this can simply pull out or use their own dollars to support social causes. They just can’t use tax dollars as long as they are in violation of state law.

DannyX

December 29th, 2011
2:08 pm

I would like to see the official Catholic adoption guideline.

Do they help remarried divorced people adopt? Adulterers? Shrimp eaters? People who pray in public?

Would new Catholic Newt be able to adopt? Herman Cain?

Normal

December 29th, 2011
2:08 pm

Since it is accepted fact that you are born Gay, and if you accept the word that God made man in His image, is it not true that God is Gay?

Bottom line: God hasn’t said being Gay is a sin, only religion has said that…and the hate continues.

“Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is.” …

AmVet

December 29th, 2011
2:09 pm

has this invisible non speaking god ever personally told anybody that homosexuality ius a sin?

And what do you burn apart from witches?

Love those quotes, Normal.

Here are three from some junk-scientist…

I am a deeply religious nonbeliever – this is a somewhat new kind of religion. ~Albert Einstein

True religion is real living; living with all one’s soul, with all one’s goodness and righteousness. ~Albert Einstein

One strength of the communist system of the East is that it has some of the character of a religion and inspires the emotions of a religion. ~Albert Einstein

Real Scootter

December 29th, 2011
2:09 pm

why dont god ever talk? cat got his tongue

He does.Just not to you. :lol:

JKL2

December 29th, 2011
2:09 pm

stands- Uncle Sam isn’t footing that bill.

obamacare says,”What?” I guess you didn’t read that”wonderfuL” part of your law.

Thulsa Doom

December 29th, 2011
2:10 pm

Keep up,

Moynihan studied the subject extensively. He knows a little more about this than you or I. He warned about that the welfare state would destroy the black family in advance and later he was vindicated. If you think a nearly 70% out of welock birthrate in the black community today has nothing to do with the welfare state and the disincentive to be married to the father of your child or children then go ahead and stick your head right back in the sand. The evidence is clear.

St Simons - we're on Island time

December 29th, 2011
2:11 pm

Religious conservatives – Putting Your Money Where Their Mouth Is

so, how’s that Faith Based Initiative workin out for ya?

stands for decibels

December 29th, 2011
2:11 pm

You may not be, but I know three who are.

Josef, given that you’re something of a major historian…

Isn’t it reasonable to say that what constituted “homosexuality” as it would be understood by most at the time of the Biblical proscriptions against it, in both the Old Testament era and in the era of Paul’s epistles, bore scant resemblance to the loving, committed same-sex couples of today who wish to raise families through adoption?

That the homosexuality being condemned was more like child abuse and/or simple prostitution, and generally coercive at best?

Quagmire

December 29th, 2011
2:11 pm

Leave me out of this………………….Eddie Long

TaxPayer

December 29th, 2011
2:11 pm

I would prefer to read books on the destruction of the white family by the welfare state (if I were inclined to read books about the welfare state and it destructive power over people). It seems to be the more relevent problem up here in North Georgia.

Curtis Rivers

December 29th, 2011
2:11 pm

Good article, Jay. I agree with your position.

getalife

December 29th, 2011
2:12 pm

They should worry about their child rapist problem.

I want to see willard’s tax forms.

I guess they will call us taxers.

stands for decibels

December 29th, 2011
2:12 pm

obamacare says,”What?” I guess you didn’t read that”wonderfuL” part of your law.

WTF are you on about?

Where, pray tell, does the ACA provide funding for elective abortion?

lliberalefty

December 29th, 2011
2:13 pm

real scooter

gee, i’ve never heard that comeback before, smh. and i guess he talks to you,huh? well i know you’re going to say,”yes”, so heres my request to you. the next time this god “talks” to you please make a recording so the world can hear this “mighty” god..

Thulsa Doom

December 29th, 2011
2:13 pm

Keep up, Was Frederick Douglass a great advocate of the welfare state?

Everybody has asked the question. . .”What shall we do with the Negro?” I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us. Do nothing with us! If the apples will not remain on the tree of their own strength, if they are wormeaten at the core, if they are early ripe and disposed to fall, let them fall! I am not for tying or fastening them on the tree in any way, except by nature’s plan, and if they will not stay there, let them fall. And if the Negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall also. All I ask is, give him a chance to stand on his own legs! Let him alone!

–Frederick Douglass16

Doggone/GA

December 29th, 2011
2:13 pm

“That the homosexuality being condemned was more like child abuse and/or simple prostitution, and generally coercive at best?”

That might be an element of it, but the main basis was that in Roman society of the time homosexual relationships had a main component of power to them. Something along the lines of “do NOT do as the Romans do”

josef

December 29th, 2011
2:14 pm

lliberalefty

December 29th, 2011
2:05 pm
why dont god ever talk? cat got his tongue

Reckon maybe it could be you’re not listening?

TGT

December 29th, 2011
2:15 pm

It’s a shame that Illinois church leaders decided that discriminating against gay couples was more important to them than continuing to provide much-needed services to orphans and neglected children.

It’s a shame that a handful of states have chosen to redefine marriage thus endorsing the dangerous (and what many deem sinful) behavior of a very small minority. And yes, there is plenty of evidence that shows the dangers of homosexual behavior, and plenty of evidence that shows children are best off being raised by a mother and a father.

Finn McCool

December 29th, 2011
2:15 pm

Dang Brazilians playing hardball. Wish our government had that fortitude:

Following an oil spill last month in Brazil – Brazilian prosecutors are going after the President of Chevron – charging him with crimes that could lead to jail time and banning Chevron from the country.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/industries/brazil-slaps-chevron-corp-with-54-million-fine-for-oil-leak/2011/12/24/gIQAtaicFP_story.html

Doggone/GA

December 29th, 2011
2:16 pm

“plenty of evidence that shows children are best off being raised by a mother and a father”

Are we to take it, then, that you would be against single-parent adoptions as well?

Ayn Rant

December 29th, 2011
2:17 pm

The Church’s stance on the matter is pure prejudice and discrimination. It is not even justified by the Church’s nonsensical religious dogma against homosexuality, masturbation, divorce, sex before marriage, contraception, abortion, etc.

By what perverted logic does the Church oppose adoption by homosexuals if it does not oppose adoption by persons who have been divorced, used contraceptives, masturbated, or engaged in pre-marital sex?

The American bishops of the Roman Catholic Church should distance themselves from the un-American, un-Christian, and outdated prejudices of a bunch of elderly, out-of-touch, celibates in Rome.

lliberalefty

December 29th, 2011
2:17 pm

thulsa

DOUGLAS also wanted an end to lynching,jim crow laws too. but in an unequal society government has to step in to help the less fortunate.

AmVet

December 29th, 2011
2:18 pm

why dont god ever talk? cat got his tongue

Nearly everyone I know claims to have heard your voice
And every time they do, I know I should rejoice
Because one day I’m sure you’ll break your silence
And speak just to me
But I feel like time’s running out
And my heart, my heart is filling with doubt
And god said

I don’t dwell upon you, I dwell on something else
And I am not really here so get over your self

You are not serving me, you’re serving something else
Cause I don’t need to be pleased, just get over yourself
You can’t suck up to me, I know you all too well
But I don’t dwell upon you, so get over yourself
Cause you’re not praying to me, you’re praying to yourself
And you’re not worshiping me you’re worshiping yourself
And you will kill in my name and heaven knows what else
When you can’t prove I exist so get over yourself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Djc6dldCk3U

Real Scootter

December 29th, 2011
2:18 pm

lliberalefty

December 29th, 2011
2:13 pm

He don’t talk to me either! He only talks to those high dollar preachers on tv.

lliberalefty

December 29th, 2011
2:19 pm

josef

if this so called almighty god spoke to me why cant i hear him?

Doggone/GA

December 29th, 2011
2:19 pm

“outdated prejudices of a bunch of elderly, out-of-touch, celibates in Rome.”

Ummm, did you miss this: “Catholic leaders in other parts of the country have made the opposite decision. “

Keep Up the Good Fight!

December 29th, 2011
2:20 pm

Doom, you quote speeches as “evidence” and summarize a book as “evidence”. Does not work. If the author of a book has empirical evidence to prove a point, you should be able to cite it. Don’t really care if you claim someone has studied the subject more than someone else if the claim does not have the evidence to support.

godless heathen

December 29th, 2011
2:20 pm

“I’m not sure what you are saying godless.Could you please explain?”

The government gives the money to the Church to distribute. It’s not charitable contributions. The government took it at the point of a gun, therefore the government says who gets the money. The Church is a subcontractor to pass out the largess.

lliberalefty

December 29th, 2011
2:21 pm

scooter

leave EDDIE LONG out of this!

Normal

December 29th, 2011
2:21 pm

Real Scooter,

He talked to G. W. Bush once…and told him to invade Iraq…go figure

Doggone/GA

December 29th, 2011
2:21 pm

“if this so called almighty god spoke to me why cant i hear him?”

As has already been said: maybe he is, but you aren’t listening

josef

December 29th, 2011
2:22 pm

SFD

Put within the context of time and place, these proscriptions have less to do with homosexuality per se than they do with 1) procreation and 2) heathen religious practices. In the first case, if you go and read you will see it listed with a whole range of don’t dos relative to procreation. In the second case there was the practice of sex as part of religious ceremony, homosexuality being on of many acts, deemed outside the acceptable Judeo-Christian.

As with much of socio-religious doctrine, it reflects our understanding of “things,” whatever they might be, in time and place.

lliberalefty

December 29th, 2011
2:23 pm

doggone

or maybe there is no god. after all theres no evidence of this invisible ghost..u have no evidence of his existence, just a belief,.

lliberalefty

December 29th, 2011
2:25 pm

i wish BARACK HUSEIN OBAMA was an atheist. we’ve had enough phony christians in the whitehouse. DUBYA prayed and god told him to butcher IRAQI’s.

TaxPayer

December 29th, 2011
2:25 pm

if this so called almighty god spoke to me why cant i hear him?

Keep turning the dial until you pick up FAITH-750 AM or one of the many others available. It’s about the only thing we get over the air waves up here in North Georgia.

Broken Pope

December 29th, 2011
2:25 pm

I guess it’s time to burn the Bibles and the Koran and have a new liberal guide omitting any of those books standards and commandments that libs deem unacceptable. After all, this has gone from a church/state conflict blog to hate blog. It would be kinda funny though if there was a God and that was his written word because you pro homosexuality lifestyle folks would be screwed!

lliberalefty

December 29th, 2011
2:26 pm

I MEANT “HUSSEIN”