In Iraq, the old ways of doing things may be reasserting themselves
Iraqi security personnel arrive at the scene of a massive car bombing in downtown Baghdad. (AP photo)
If you haven’t been following events in Iraq recently, here’s an update:
Iraqi Vice President Tariq al-Hashimi, the most prominent Sunni in government, has been accused of using his security entourage as a hit squad. Members of his security squad have confessed, but al-Hashimi claims that the confessions were obtained through torture, which is certainly plausible.
Al-Hashimi has fled to the Kurdish area of Iraq to avoid arrest. Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has demanded that the Kurds surrender al-Hashimi, warning “there will be problems” if he is not handed over. He has also threatened to disband the governing coalition, creating a serious political crisis.
And now this, as reported in The Washington Post:
BAGHDAD — More than a dozen explosions in Baghdad over a two-hour period Thursday morning killed at least 63 people–the first major violence in Iraq since the U.S. completed its troop pullout last week and a political crisis broke out.
At least 185 people were reported injured in the bombings, said officials at the Ministry of Interior, who were speaking on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly.
The coordinated wave of attacks began around 6:30 a.m. local time (10:30 p.m. Wednesday in Washington). Witnesses said that all main roads and many government offices in the Iraqi capital remained closed for hours after.
I can’t say any of this is a surprise. While U.S. troops hadn’t been involved in security efforts in Iraq for more than a year, it’s hard to argue that it’s mere coincidence that this crisis has developed so shortly after their departure from the country. We’re still deeply involved in Iraqi affairs — CIA Director David Petraeus is in the country now, meeting with Iraqi leaders — but the country is clearly under their control, not ours. They will determine its fate.
We were there for almost nine years. If U.S. troops had remained for another five years, they might have been able to prevent this current crisis — for another five years. Sooner or later, though, a time was going to come in which the Iraqis would have to decide what kind of country they wanted, and by what means, if any, it was going to be held together.
That time may be now, and even if they make it through this crisis, others are inevitable. The notion that we could go in and remake another society — install new expectations, mindsets, cultural norms and democratic ideologies, as if we were installing a new engine in a car — has been the glaring flaw in our Iraq strategy from the very beginning. There are still grounds for hope of at least some success long-term, but there’s an equal if not better chance that the Iraqis will revert to their old ways of doing things.
– Jay Bookman
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819 comments Add your comment
getalife
December 22nd, 2011
12:35 pm
I doubt the Sunni VP will go to the Kurds for help after the Sunnis gassed the Kurds.
I think he went to Saudi Arabia to plot the civil war.
I think Al Sadr with Iran’s help will win this civil war and he will emerge as the new dictator.
Peter
December 22nd, 2011
12:37 pm
Does anyone know what happened to the caravan of (6) tracker trailers filled with US currency that Saddam had moving ?
Kamchak
December 22nd, 2011
12:37 pm
The legacy of this war is as much Obama’s as George W. Bush’s.
Obama raised the specter that the smoking gun is the mushroom cloud?
stranger in a strange land
December 22nd, 2011
12:37 pm
Kamchak @ 1157 – if no one else will say it I will – that’s funny I don’t care who you are
Welcome to the Occupation
December 22nd, 2011
12:38 pm
There’s absolutely no overestimating the absolute, sheer malevolence and poisonousness of this movement that we call conservativism.
Sometimes I really do think that these people need to be locked up. Just silenced. They’re that dangerous.
Peter
December 22nd, 2011
12:39 pm
Ken Stallings. Everyone in the world wants “American Style Freedom “…..especially in awful situations.
So you are saying the America Tax payer should fund the freeing of the world at our financial Peril ?
josef
December 22nd, 2011
12:40 pm
HDB
“What’s being done now under the guise of voter-id as a “poll tax” which is ILLEGAL!!”
Yep.
Thulsa Doom
December 22nd, 2011
12:41 pm
RB from Gwinnett,
Your debate with Adam looks suspiciously like MPercy’s debate with Adam from yesterday. Adam made the absolute statement to the effect that *every* economist believed that the stimulus worked. *every* one of em. MPercy then provided a list of 350 economists who disagreed and from there it was nothing but Adam moving goalposts and saying that all these economists were *biased* despite the fact that many of them taught at some very liberal colleges. He just has his mind closed and no amount of reasoning or logic is going to dissuade a youngster who already has his preconceived ideas decided about the world.
theyeshaveit
December 22nd, 2011
12:41 pm
…American soldiers that gave their lives to give Iraq a chance at democracy.
American soldiers went to Iraq to give Iraqis a chance at democracy, you say? I don’t recall Colin Powell selling the invasion to the UN that way. If I recall he used “intelligence” like photos of vans laden with WMDs in hopes of winning over support. The Germans and French didn’t buy it, and we should not have either.
Peter
December 22nd, 2011
12:41 pm
Ken Stallings……. Please tell us how these………politicians, journalists and citizens had more resolve to stand up to evil when and where it counted!
Planed to pay for the War ?
Adam
December 22nd, 2011
12:42 pm
Thulsa: Your debate with Adam looks suspiciously like MPercy’s debate with Adam from yesterday.
The two are not similar except in your own mind.
Welcome to the Occupation
December 22nd, 2011
12:43 pm
Ken Stallings: “If you are going to pull out our military, then you bear the responsibility for the consequences just as much as those who bear the responsibility for sending the troops in. ”
I respectfully disagree. The decision to pull out of an area after an invasion is made at a different time and under different conditions that an initial invasion.
By the way, I didn’t see you address in your post the fact that Obama himself wanted to stay in Iraq just as much as Bush did. It’s just that now, another 2-3 years on, it’s increasingly impossible to contemplate staying without the crucial legal immunity issue that was always at issue. What do you propose we should have done?
Thulsa Doom
December 22nd, 2011
12:44 pm
“Sometimes I really do think that these people need to be locked up. Just silenced. They’re that dangerous”
Occupation is that you actually speaking or Chairman Mao? Or perhaps Stalin? Typical example of free speech. Liberals love free speech. Just as long as its their free speech.
Adam
December 22nd, 2011
12:44 pm
Conservatives love free speech. Just as long as its their free speech.
FYT
Jay
December 22nd, 2011
12:45 pm
Ken, there is no evidence that a SOFA extending our time beyond 2011 was attainable. None. Bush had tried to negotiate such a SOFA and failed. Go back and read accounts of Bush in 2008 desperately trying to negotiate an open-ended SOFA with the Iraqis, publicly insisting that he would never accept a deadline for withdrawal.
And yet he did, for the same reason Obama did. Because a lot of Iraqis wanted us gone, and those who wanted us to stay were too timid to say so.
Richard
December 22nd, 2011
12:47 pm
You know Jay, I might not agree with you on a lot of other issues (i.e. just about everything else except perhaps political ethics), but foreign policy is certainly not one of them. Spot on, good sir.
Jay
December 22nd, 2011
12:48 pm
“Sometimes I really do think that these people need to be locked up. Just silenced. They’re that dangerous.”
Once again, Occupation, you come off as the leftist mirror image of the right wing extremists.
Peter
December 22nd, 2011
12:48 pm
The FUNNY stuff is the Right is all about the quote un quote Deficit……
YET they are wanting to continue to pour money into War Mongering, and having the UP play peace keepers without a way to fund that activity.
How do you have it both ways ? Simple screw the America Tax payer !
Richard
December 22nd, 2011
12:50 pm
@Thulsa Doom
Love the blogging handle. I just watched that Conan: The Barbarian the other day.
theyeshaveit
December 22nd, 2011
12:50 pm
Just a thought…
Are there ever any good reasons for a bad war?
Erwin's cat
December 22nd, 2011
12:51 pm
a willing suspension of disbelief…perhaps
getalife
December 22nd, 2011
12:53 pm
Looks like another downgrade every two months because of the gop stunts to shut down government.
They deserve another downgrade.
Welcome to the Occupation
December 22nd, 2011
12:56 pm
Thulsa: Occupation is that you actually speaking or Chairman Mao? Or perhaps Stalin? Typical example of free speech. Liberals love free speech. Just as long as its their free speech.
What’s a liberal, Thulsa?
I’ll give you a hint. I’m not one.
Thulsa Doom
December 22nd, 2011
12:58 pm
Occupation,
Hard line commie? Maoist? Stalinist? Or merely a socialist?
HDB
December 22nd, 2011
12:59 pm
RB from Gwinnett, — even the NY Times states that Republicans are behind voter suppression…..
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/opinion/holder-speaks-up-for-voting-rights.html?_r=1&scp=4&sq=voter%20fraud&st=cse
getalife
December 22nd, 2011
1:01 pm
House gop leaders are begging our President to bail them out.
He said no and the turtle told them to cave.
Kamchak
December 22nd, 2011
1:01 pm
What’s a liberal
You ask that question at least once a day.
Have you ever received a cogent response?
Thulsa Doom
December 22nd, 2011
1:01 pm
Richard,
I watched it too the newer version a couple of days ago. I thought it sucked compared to the older version with Schwarzzenneger and James Earl Jones who was fantastic as Thulsa Doom. James Earl Jones was just badazz in that movie.
Welcome to the Occupation
December 22nd, 2011
1:01 pm
Jay: “Once again, Occupation, you come off as the leftist mirror image of the right wing extremists.”
By “these people” I’m not talking about people on this blog. I’m talking about the professional liars who pollute our political discourse: the Dick Morrisses and Dick Cheneys of the world, the hacks that populate the FOX propaganda outfit.
You know in Germany you can be locked up for denying the Holocaust — a fact that shocks our American sensibilities. But when I look at what is happening to our political discourse in this country, I start wondering if our anything goes environment is not ultimately a losing proposition.
barking frog
December 22nd, 2011
1:01 pm
As long as the oil supply is safe this is their problem.
wet wiccan
December 22nd, 2011
1:02 pm
It probably would have done a lot to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people if we had been able to get the electricity back on. But after 9 years and billions of dollars, we couldn’t even do that.
A dad
December 22nd, 2011
1:04 pm
Welcome:
Sorry to take so long to reply. Work keeps getting in the way and all. I have to ask the basis for your statements re the enormous change in Iraq, no killing of women and children, etc. Curious. Have you ever been to Iraq? [I have btw] Think about Saddam as a caliph or sultan, how he ruled and what he did while in power. See the comparison? And yes, women and children dissappeared under his rule. Also, Islam allows a father to slit the throats of his raped daughters to avenge his family’s honor. Do you support that practice? Kind of 14th century-ish don’t you think. Sorry, the 3 countries I named are stuck i nthe middle-ages, and have been since the middle ages.
Erwin's cat
December 22nd, 2011
1:06 pm
wet – “It probably would have done a lot to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people if we had been able to get the electricity back on. But after 9 years and billions of dollars, we couldn’t even do that.”
———————————————————————————
we wouldn’t want anyone to have to build bombs in the dark would we?
AmVet - Just say no to the War Pigs.
December 22nd, 2011
1:06 pm
The awful losses we suffered so needlessly in Iraq were all due to lessons we apparently never learned in SE Asia.
Sure, the terminology changed, from a domino theory to a war on terrorism, but the same idiotic, short-sighted little men, with new names, perversely sold a bunch of crap, wrapped up in an American flag, to willing fools of craven servility.
But this time our quasi-fascist invaders upped the ante, and waged a covert war on American citizens at the same time. One that made Tricky Dick’s hit lists look completely innocuous.
And at the risk of channeling Natalie Maines, I am ashamed that you incompetent warmongers, hiding behind Old Glory, got your way.
A dad
December 22nd, 2011
1:06 pm
Welcome – and in case there was any doubt, I sure as heck am not a lib. It’s just having seen troops die, I place a very, VERY high value on American lives. And I don’t trust the gov’t, R or D (that’s my Tea party coming through) when it comes to most situations. Boston harbor, here I come…..
GT/MIT
December 22nd, 2011
1:08 pm
Holy crap!, one could make a case for copying these posts into book form and titling it, “Do Farce Smell?”>
getalife
December 22nd, 2011
1:09 pm
Well, we had our own problem keeping the lights in SF at the game the other night.
Normal
December 22nd, 2011
1:09 pm
Off topic, but cute…
http://icanhascheezburger.com/2011/12/20/funny-pictures-i-saw-kitty-slapping-santa-claus/
Thulsa Doom
December 22nd, 2011
1:09 pm
Occupation,
You stated that Morris and Cheney are liars. Can you provide absolute proof of various lies they have told? Or is it just your opinion that they have lied because you happen to not like what they say? Keep in mind that Morris worked for years for Bill Clinton.
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
December 22nd, 2011
1:10 pm
Well, it never took long for the Towelheads to get after each other after our boys left, did it? If we’re lucky they’ll kill each other off and we can move in and have cheap oil again. Anyhow, our boys ain’t there anymore and we only lost 4500 of them or so while we were there. So I’m kinda looking forward to reading about the big bombs going off in the markets and the 100s of Towelheads being killed.
Tonight I’m doing Christmas shopping for the missus. I don’t know what to get her. She’s already got a electric frying pan and a mixer and a bunch of other kitchen stuff us men know they like to get as gifts. It’s just too bad they don’t make mop & broom combos all wrapped up and ready to give. Or maybe she’d like a new vacuum cleaner. Anyhow, I don’t want to buy anything too mushy.
Have a good p.m. everybody.
Butch Cassidy
December 22nd, 2011
1:12 pm
David – “You don’t care about the fact that doing so in this way is an insult to the American soldiers that gave their lives to give Iraq a chance at democracy.”
Well then, I expect you’ll be writing a harshly worded letter to George W. Bush for agreeing to the withdrawl schedule that Obama followed. Or did you just want us to point the big guns at the Iraqi president and tell him to sit down and STFU?
They BOTH suck
December 22nd, 2011
1:12 pm
TD
“Keep in mind that Morris worked for years for Bill Clinton.”
If he lied what the heck does that have to do with anything?
Thulsa Doom
December 22nd, 2011
1:12 pm
AmVet – Just say no to the War Pigs.
AmVet,
I can’t say no to War Pigs. Its one of my favorite Sabbath songs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbxfe7DMxVo
Bill Orvis White
December 22nd, 2011
1:13 pm
@RG Readmore
Thank you and here is my ‘Twas The Night Before Christmas 2009 http://tinyurl.com/ydunr57
I thinking of something new here in my shed at the moment.
Merry Christmas/Amen,
Bill
They BOTH suck
December 22nd, 2011
1:16 pm
TD
How bout Snowblind………………….
song about a bad subject; however it rocks
Welcome to the Occupation
December 22nd, 2011
1:18 pm
Thanks for the reply, A dad:
I’m not disputing the facts you mention – of brutalities under Saddam, etc. – so much as I’m saying that we presume for ourselves some idealized position as untouched and unsoiled by our historical actions and responsibilities, and nowhere is that more true than in the Middle East (although something very similar can be said for our role in Latin America).
What I am saying is that events like the explosions today in Baghdad are something of a different order altogether than what we saw under Saddam (though I recognize that we can’t look at what happened THEN under Saddam but must ask ourselves what might have happened in a current-day Iraq with no US invasion). Sure, there were police-state brutalities in Iraq under Saddam, but to my knowledge events like the sectarian slaughters we’ve seen since the invasion and are likely to continue seeing, were minimal to non-existent and the secularism of the regime was one reason we supported them against the other great Satan Iran in the 80s. Do I support honor killings? Of course not. But it is the continued instability in the world brought about by the current dynamics of world capitalism that make such atrocities more likely, not less. And imperialist invasions, perhaps more than anything else, are prime culprits in ushering in these instabilities.
Thulsa Doom
December 22nd, 2011
1:18 pm
They BOTH suck,
What did they lie about? I can sit here and say that Obama lied about numerous campaign promises and back it up with video of campaign promises that were either violated, broken, or simply not implemented for whatever reason. Or that weren’t upheld due to the realities of politics. Both sides can play that game all day long. To me a real lie is something like if Eric Holder says that he had zero knowledge of the fast and furious program and then contradictory evidence is found showing he knew fully well of the program. That to me is a bald faced lie. Saying Obama lied about broken campaign promises or that Bush lied about WMDs or that Morris or Cheney lied is just a bunch of nonsense.
Jm
December 22nd, 2011
1:19 pm
Decisions have consequences
getalife
December 22nd, 2011
1:20 pm
Funny blog Bill.
“I know that Ann Coulter is out there waiting for me. I’m the real man that she’s looking for.”
Good stuff.
THisThatnTheOther
December 22nd, 2011
1:21 pm
Gee, I can’t seem to find any mention of this story on AJC.com….
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/12/21/officials-plead-guilty-in-new-york-voter-fraud-case/?test=latestnews
The only reason Fox ran the story is because it implicates some Democrats
Thulsa Doom
December 22nd, 2011
1:22 pm
They BOTH suck,
I would say off the mega album we sold our souls snowblind is probably my 3rd favorite sabbath song behind NIB and Tomorrows dream. Some really wicked stuff is side 2 of paranoid cd which I like better than the much more acclaimed side 1 which as paranoid, war pigs, faeries wear boots, etc. Side 2 is just sick- electric funeral, rat salad, etc.
They BOTH suck
December 22nd, 2011
1:22 pm
TD
You didnt read where I posted anything about either one lying? I think Morris is an opportunist to the highest bidder (good for him) and Cheney’s politics are not my bag……
I just asked you a simple question based on the last sentence of your post?
If Morris lied about anything; what the heck does that have to do with him working for Clinton? and being fired……. you forgot to mention that part
josef
December 22nd, 2011
1:22 pm
BOW
@ 1:13
Why…ain’t nobody gonna read it…you’ve been pegged and thass that…
Jack
December 22nd, 2011
1:24 pm
Not to worry. Obama will make a pretty speech soon assuring us that it’s okay for Iraq to do things in the old way. He’s got it covered.
josef
December 22nd, 2011
1:25 pm
getalife
You got it! Good…I was wondering if it was just me, Simon’s and Readmore…G-d! I love it when I get got…this has been the highlight of my day…still going over some of them…
They BOTH suck
December 22nd, 2011
1:26 pm
TD
“To me a real lie is something like if Eric Holder says that he had zero knowledge of the fast and furious program and then contradictory evidence is found showing he knew fully well of the program”
I don’t know what he knew or didn’t know. Does it appear he knew more than he said? Yes
Were you ok with Bush saying he never met Abramoff? Despite him being one of the most powerful lobbyist at the time and with several pics of him standing with Bush in the WH then for the WH to not allow the visitation records to be seem so one would not know how many times Abromoff was at the WH… Now that was a LIE……..
We could both post all die about lies. In most cases; we would call lies on the other side and call it opinion and semantics when it doesn’t meet our own take on things
Thulsa Doom
December 22nd, 2011
1:27 pm
And they say tougher voting requirements aren’t needed. I think HDB forgot to post this article from the NYTimes.
A total of four Democratic officials and political operatives have now pleaded guilty to voter fraud-related felony charges in an alleged scheme to steal a New York election.
The latest guilty pleas expose the ease with which political insiders can apparently manipulate the electoral system and throw an election their way, by the forging of signatures of unsuspecting voters that are then cast as real votes.
“The phrase they use is: ‘making sure they vote the right way,’” said a source close to the case, which is unfolding in Troy, N.Y. “It is not a Democratic or Republican thing. … It is criminal.”
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/12/21/officials-plead-guilty-in-new-york-voter-fraud-case/?test=latestnews#ixzz1hHzzZk00
Bud Wiser
December 22nd, 2011
1:28 pm
Countries and peoples in the Middle East have been at some sort of war, war between countries, religions, sects, tribes, families, etc, etc, ever since history has been recorded.
Our military lives have been lost only when we have put our interests where they may or may not have belonged.
The biggest difference now is that their weapons have advanced beyond swords and knives.
It is only a matter of time until high-tech weapons are used, with devastating and world changing results……..unless the ability to produce these weapons are completely and utterly destroyed.
Once more the western ‘civilization’ will throw that responsibility to Israel and the United States, and frankly I think the US will sit the next one out.
getalife
December 22nd, 2011
1:28 pm
Josef,
Yes, RC has some competition.
Where is your blog Redneck Convert?
Bud Wiser
December 22nd, 2011
1:29 pm
Thank goodness that VP Biden has now declared that the Taliban is not our enemy.
I’m sure they will let us alone and out of it.
AmVet - Just say no to the War Pigs.
December 22nd, 2011
1:30 pm
Doom,
Even more than the outrage and righteous anger I’ve felt, the overriding emotion for me is heartbreak.
I have died a thousand times since shock and awe. I’ve wept repeatedly for those families who will never be whole again.
Yet all I feel is empty.
Forward he cried from the rear
And the front rank died
And the General sat, and the lines on the map
Moved from side to side
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfrvlFQStkg
Thulsa Doom
December 22nd, 2011
1:34 pm
They BOTH suck,
On Holder I believe that there have already been presented docs in that congressional hearing contradicting him. I’ld have to look that up again to confirm but in any event I think he’s going to eventually have to resign.I just find it difficult to believe he knew nothing of this program.
As for W standing next to Abramoff in pics that doesn’t mean a whole lot. There are hundreds if not thousands of pics of various presidents taking pics with all sorts of people who were later found out to be white collar thugs or worse but had arisen to positions of power- Madoff for example, Nixon with cult murderer Jim Jones, and on and on. This occurs at all these dinners, fundraisers, and various functions where potuses are frequently taking pics with people they don’t even know or won’t remember their names. Every potus out there has pics with people later found to be unscrupulous scoundrels that they don’t remember. No biggie there.
I mentioned Morris working for Clinton to the poster because if he thinks Morris is lying for the repubs then odds are he was probably doing the same for the Dems. Its a 2 way street on that.
Welcome to the Occupation
December 22nd, 2011
1:36 pm
Thulsa : “You stated that Morris and Cheney are liars. Can you provide absolute proof of various lies they have told?”
Well, with Cheney we of course have the entire rationale for the Iraq invasion — a giant souffle of lies — to point to. With a hack like Dick Morris, do I really have to tell you? If you want you can read up on it via New Republic, here : http://www.tnr.com/blog/jonathan-chait/85668/dick-morris-obama-2012-japan-economy.
But, as is evidenced in the current brouhaha over the FactChecker organization, lying is not so much damaging in a quantitative sense — i.e. who told the most lies or who told the biggest whopper. As Churchill said, the truth sometimes has to be protected behind a phalanx of lies. The worst kind of lying is the kind that weaves truth and lie together and presents it as having the force of accepted wisdom and gives it the stamp of legitimacy of established institutions. Most dangerous of all are not individual speech acts, but whole practices of presenting events based on half-truths, sort of the way FOX News cynically packages half-truths and insinuations as having the legitimacy of received truth to its followers.
They BOTH suck
December 22nd, 2011
1:40 pm
TD
You actually believe that the Bush had zero idea of who was the most prominent lobbyist of that time?
Really?
I understand the POTUS meets numerous people and takes hundreds of pics; but lets be realistic here.
Why not allow the records to be seen? If it wasn’t for visitation records Republicans would have known how many times Monica visited Clinton…. yet when the shoe was on the other foot.. they had no problem with Bush/Cheney being shielded…….
A dad
December 22nd, 2011
1:41 pm
Occy – sectarian slaughters non-existent? Tell that to the Kurds. Blaming world capitalism? Were you my polsci prof in “Politics of Developing Countries,” whose big theme was the 3d world was the 3d world because of colonialism. My thesis, extremely well-supported by UN, IMF, etc. studies, reports, analyses, etc., which showed the reason 3d world countries are still 3d world is because of cultural scenarios such as tribal conflicts, dictators, and the like got a big C+ while my classmates thesis, with virtually non-existent factual support but espoused the colonial theory, got an A+. Too bad I was the honors grad, #1 in the class that year. You’re a Kenesian aren’t you.
josef
December 22nd, 2011
1:43 pm
getalife
Competition, hell, buries him in the dirt… he’s what Duk-sha-nee wishes he were…imo
Bill
I know you don’t much care for reading, but…was your Mama scared by this when she was carrying you…?
http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/1523/
MoreIsLess
December 22nd, 2011
1:44 pm
If Obama had suggested a one year tax cut, Boehner would insist on 2 years.
Thulsa Doom
December 22nd, 2011
1:44 pm
AmVet,
I hear yet. I won’t dispute the liberal disagreement over the entire Iraq and whether or not we should have ever gone in there. It is a reasonable disagreement and I think we all hate the tragedy of dead or wounded U.S. serviceman. I literally cried the day my brother left to go over there. Hadn’t done that since I was 12.
But if you think that 4500 U.S. troops died in vain then please go rent the movie the Devil’s double. I saw it last week. BTW every atrocity in that movie is documented. You’ll feel better that this butcher is out of power and can’t torture tens of thousands of people or murder up to a million of his own people anymore.
BRW
December 22nd, 2011
1:44 pm
Black Sabbath, Volume 4, Supernaut….Even at 56 my head still sways when the chorus kicks in. Geezer at his finest………
St Simons - we're on Island time
December 22nd, 2011
1:48 pm
oh..hahaha..god..gasping…his facebook page is a flippin masterpiece,
a vanGogh, a Rembrandt of conservatardiness
Thulsa Doom
December 22nd, 2011
1:49 pm
They BOTH suck,
In all the accusations of W lying about WMDs or haliburton or whatever I have never seen in the news or on these blogs or anywhere ever bring up the idea that W lied about knowing Abramoff. You’re the only person I’ve ever seen posit this idea. No offense but that makes me wonder just how credible the assertion is that he lied about knowing Abramoff if only 1 person has ever brought it up. Not saying this couldn’t have happened. Just saying of all the things ever said about W this I have never heard of.
They BOTH suck
December 22nd, 2011
1:49 pm
TD
I seen the Devils Double…. Crazy movie and I’m sure there are thing we will never know.
With that said, why did we not intervene in the Sudan and Rwanda
There were atrocities there that made the Hussien family appear to be the Clevers….
The Thin Guy
December 22nd, 2011
1:50 pm
Could be Ron Paul is right. Let other countries solve their own problems. We certainly have enough of our own. Billions of dollars and thousands of American lives. Sort of like Vietnam with sand.
Matti's Heavy Heart
December 22nd, 2011
1:53 pm
Wouldn’t it be a great idea for Americans to learn to disagree without hating each other, and to work through our differences in a way that can benefit us as a nation, instead of continuing to weaken ourselves with selfish political jockeying, greed, violence, and class warfare? If we could eventually learn to do that, perhaps we could show others how it’s done. In the meantime, if the Iraqi people refuse to choose peace and compromise over mass murder, I don’t know what more we (our military personnel) could do. It’s not like we have resources to spare for a peace they don’t want.
Jm
December 22nd, 2011
1:54 pm
Obama
A bad decider
Wonk or Wank?
December 22nd, 2011
1:54 pm
Pandora’s Box. History of a 10K years old ethnic and a 1.5K year old sectarian war of ambush and intrigue. Persians are not Arabs, and neither race are Kurds. That is three distinct ethnicities.
Sunnis are the minority in Iraq. Shia is Iran. Shia is Iraq. No Shia Superstate of Iran/Iraq is possible because Persians are not Arab. Those two countries totally cancelled each other out. How many of you know this? three? (morons)
Shame on all of you for not knowing anything more than Bush knew when he acquiesced to Saudi Royal Family (read cheney,) demands that he invade Iraq so that Saudi-owned MIC corporations could profit. (read Military Industrial Complex=MIC)
Iraq today: there are conspiracies alive and well. There are plots and subversions in progress. There are coups and counter coups. There is a tangle of intersecting alliances and rivalries all manuevering for position.
There will be blood. The consequences of unleashing this explosion on the Islamic Spring will take us all down. History will find Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld to be the new Tojo/Hitler/Mussolini.
Only much, much worse. Enjoy every single day we have left. I love how Bookman writes, “The Iraqi people have to decide what country they will have”. How ignorant is that? The Iraqi people, (read 90% of them) want peace and trade with the west and east and north and south. The Iraqi people have nothing to do with what’s coming. It’s the Iraqi radicals and their 10K year old hatreds that’s going to take us all down.
There’s nothing the Iraqi People can do to stop the Civil War anymore than the American People could stop their own Supreme Court from commiting treason as they usurped our electoral college and annointed Saint George Bush as our Crusade leader into the holy land. WHy didn’t we fire all nine of the Benedict Arnolds? Lets Impeach them all now, the dirty rats.
ANd now we’ve the devil to pay. Hope you GOP wonks are happy. Wow, you really want the world to end. I admit that the end of the world could be a gas, and I’m with you, okay, lets throw down, come on.
Sadam Hussein could still be in charge. Saddam Huseinn could still have a lid on it. The future could still look bright as a natural succession of blood thirty tyrants could have kept Iraq/Iran in the dark ages for another 10K years. But no, we had to hasten the end of the world because of greedy Saudis and gullible Bush’s and Cheneys.
Look at north korea. So what if they’re lunatics. They have kept the peace over there for over fifty years, man. Likewise, Saddam Hussein would have contained the violence to a few beheadings and gassings. We didn’t care then, so why should we care now?
Bush. Cheney. Lets find them. Let’s try them. Let us judge them guilty. Guilty. GUILTY!!!!!
Who’s with me? LETS DO IT!!!!!!! (insert emoticon of the face of an old hag who’s knitting and crying out, “Guillotine!”)
0311/1811
December 22nd, 2011
1:55 pm
Someone “will” be the world’s policeman. It used to be Great Britain.
Do we want it to continue to be the U.S. or China? Russia?
Welcome to the Occupation
December 22nd, 2011
1:55 pm
A dad,
You’re arguing based on presumed sources of authority (IMF, UN, etc.) as though those orgs didn’t have their own dogs in the race. The question of colonialism and the third world is a massive one, but are you seriously going to suggest that the “tribal conflicts, dictators” etc. exist in some separate sphere, separated from world political and ideological dynamics? Just take the US role in fostering the growth of Al Qaeda as one recent example. But there are many. Look at Honduras for another example. It’s not to say that there is absolutely no responsibility or role by people and leaders in third world countries for their difficulties, but the influence and after-effects of the rapacious actions of colonial powers in subjugating wide areas of the world — not to mention current-day cynical calculations such as our continued support for other repressive regimes for purely geopolitical interests — is indisputable.
They BOTH suck
December 22nd, 2011
1:57 pm
TD
I don’t own USAToday
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-01-26-bush_x.htm
LA Times
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-01-26-bush_x.htm
It goes on and on….. but I digress
Talking Head
December 22nd, 2011
1:57 pm
“Could be Ron Paul is right. Let other countries solve their own problems. ”
Yes, he is right…but not neccessarily because its a waste of our resources. For instance, our presence in the Middle East is pointless. Those people have been killing each other since the beginning of time, and they will continue to do so until humans no longer exist. I am forever thankful for the Men and Women who have served this country to promote a free republic, but there is only so much you can do.
Thulsa Doom
December 22nd, 2011
2:00 pm
My so-called relationship with Bush, Rove and everyone else at the White House has only become important because instead of just releasing details about the very few times I was there, they created a feeding frenzy by their deafening silence,” Abramoff told the magazine.
“The Democrats, on the other hand, are going overboard, virtually insisting I was there to plan the invasion of Iraq.”
They BOTH suck,
“The very few times he was there”? That’s all I need to know. I don’t find it hard to believe that of the hundreds if not thousands of people that visited the white house under W that Bush wouldn’t remember him. I’m certain from what I just read that W would recognize Abramoff but what few conversations they had were casual according to Abramoff himself. The name probably didn’t ring a bell with W or W may have just stated the truth saying he didn’t know him. Sometimes people will say that they don’t know someone when they know them. But they don’t really know them well enough to really say they know them in the sense that they know them really well. Know what I mean?
I can think of people that I’ve met and conversed with but if you asked me do I know them I would say no. I had a phone conversation with Jerry Falwell once. Now if you asked me if I know him I would tell you no. Even though I did have a lengthy conversation with the man I really don’t know him. Does that make me a liar?
AmVet - Just say no to the War Pigs.
December 22nd, 2011
2:04 pm
Thanks for those words, Doom.
And I promise you that I will consider what you have written, and I will try to take some comfort from the idea that we liberated the long suffering Iraqi people.
And frankly, after nine years, I’m emotionally wrung out and am pretty certain that I will never find my own redemption about any of this.
A little George to soothe my soul…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_cbVYhM4Ns
Mike
December 22nd, 2011
2:04 pm
I know this sounds bad but I am so sick of 10 years of these “Iraq” horror stories. Let’s just stay out of it and they will eliminate themselves. It is really that easy. Just watch.
They BOTH suck
December 22nd, 2011
2:05 pm
TD
Like I mentioned earlier…. we will defend what we agree with or wish to dismiss and accuse what we do not agree with……….
Plan and simple
They BOTH suck
December 22nd, 2011
2:09 pm
TD and others
If I’m not on again until next week have a great Christmas, Winter Solstices, Hanukkah, etc……………….
Normal
December 22nd, 2011
2:10 pm
0311/1811
December 22nd, 2011
1:55 pm
If it bleeds them like it’s bleeding us, I say “Why not?”
Common Sense isn't very Common
December 22nd, 2011
2:10 pm
Ok I’m back you can start being bad to each other again
Richard
December 22nd, 2011
2:12 pm
Thulsa
Yeah I watched the older one as well. James Earl and Arnold are awesome.
0311/1811
December 22nd, 2011
2:14 pm
Normal:
When you allow that it only means they will bleed us more later.
AmVet - Just say no to the War Pigs.
December 22nd, 2011
2:14 pm
They BOTH suck, right back at ya.
And all the best to you and yours.
Dan was always in my top ten faves…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srNvp7w341I
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 22nd, 2011
2:14 pm
It’s still Iraq ‘n Roll to me
Thulsa Doom
December 22nd, 2011
2:15 pm
With that said, why did we not intervene in the Sudan and Rwanda- TBS
They BOTH suck,
We didn’t intervene because its Africa and no one really seems to give a damn since there is nothing of strategic importance in those 2 countries. Even the black leadership in this country seemed to not care a lot because of politics- Farrakhan is supportive of the more Arabic Muslim majority in the North of Sudan oppressing and committing a genocide campaign against the Christian and animist and darker peoples of southern Sudan. That’s why I assume Jesse and Al seem so quiet on Sudan. Personally I would have no problem with us sending in some brigades to either whup the janjaweeds asses a few times in search and destroy missions or simply to help protect the civilian populace against them. And also arm them to protect themselves and fight their own rebellion. This wouldn’t be something that would bog us down. Just protect the populace until we can arm them to fight back. And teach the janjaweed a lesson that will make them back off.
In the case of Rwanda I was deeply saddened as the entire world stood by while a slaughter of 800,000 people took place over 90 days. The main instruments of death were machetes and hoes. Literally a few thousand well placed U.S. troops would have stopped the entire massacre dead in its tracks just by virtue of having guns as opposed to machetes. The intransigence of the entire world community and of the U.S. in particular is unforgivable. Clinton got a pass anyway for doing not a damn thing- cept apologizing well after the fact for not doing a damn thing. Think W woulda gotten a pass? I sincerely doubt it. I am absolutely positive a few thousand U.S. and UN armed troops could have stopped it if we really wanted to. We just didn’t give a damn because its mostly a bunch of poor black people in a country that has little if any strategic importance.
Normal
December 22nd, 2011
2:27 pm
Well, closing out here and headed home. Got family in from Texas.
All y’all have a Merry Mithra…
and a little light reading for your enlightenment…
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen048.html
WOODSTOCK MIKE
December 22nd, 2011
2:27 pm
“Welcome to the Occupation”
What’s up with this guy?? So strange how he blames America for the world’s problems. Since it seems you are such a genius, what would you have America do, oh, that’s right, you think doing nothing would be the best choice. Thankfully you don’t run this country.
Steve - USA
December 22nd, 2011
2:29 pm
GDP revised down to 1.8%. These numbers are starting to have no meaning with all these revisions. The same with the unemployment figures, they come out and everyone analyzes them to death and then a month later they have a totally new number.
Sorry for the OT.
josef
December 22nd, 2011
2:29 pm
THULSA
Rwanda? What would Newt have done, being the “acknowledged” expert on and apologist for Belgian colonialism…?
WOODSTOCK MIKE
December 22nd, 2011
2:31 pm
It’s interesting how liberals claim that because of the Iraqi war America destroyed it’s reputation around the world, specifically in the Middle East. Funny thing is that’s a complete lie. Our reputation today in the Middle East is no different in any way from what it was before the Iraqi war. People in the Middle East are burning American flags and pictures of President Obama as we speak just like they did 20 years ago.
Common Sense isn't very Common
December 22nd, 2011
2:33 pm
the Nutster probably would have invaded Rwanda and set up USA east.
josef
December 22nd, 2011
2:35 pm
common sense
How patriotic of him…
Common Sense isn't very Common
December 22nd, 2011
2:36 pm
Josef – when the Nutster is feeling patriotic no woman other than his current wife is safe