In Iraq, the old ways of doing things may be reasserting themselves
Iraqi security personnel arrive at the scene of a massive car bombing in downtown Baghdad. (AP photo)
If you haven’t been following events in Iraq recently, here’s an update:
Iraqi Vice President Tariq al-Hashimi, the most prominent Sunni in government, has been accused of using his security entourage as a hit squad. Members of his security squad have confessed, but al-Hashimi claims that the confessions were obtained through torture, which is certainly plausible.
Al-Hashimi has fled to the Kurdish area of Iraq to avoid arrest. Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has demanded that the Kurds surrender al-Hashimi, warning “there will be problems” if he is not handed over. He has also threatened to disband the governing coalition, creating a serious political crisis.
And now this, as reported in The Washington Post:
BAGHDAD — More than a dozen explosions in Baghdad over a two-hour period Thursday morning killed at least 63 people–the first major violence in Iraq since the U.S. completed its troop pullout last week and a political crisis broke out.
At least 185 people were reported injured in the bombings, said officials at the Ministry of Interior, who were speaking on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly.
The coordinated wave of attacks began around 6:30 a.m. local time (10:30 p.m. Wednesday in Washington). Witnesses said that all main roads and many government offices in the Iraqi capital remained closed for hours after.
I can’t say any of this is a surprise. While U.S. troops hadn’t been involved in security efforts in Iraq for more than a year, it’s hard to argue that it’s mere coincidence that this crisis has developed so shortly after their departure from the country. We’re still deeply involved in Iraqi affairs — CIA Director David Petraeus is in the country now, meeting with Iraqi leaders — but the country is clearly under their control, not ours. They will determine its fate.
We were there for almost nine years. If U.S. troops had remained for another five years, they might have been able to prevent this current crisis — for another five years. Sooner or later, though, a time was going to come in which the Iraqis would have to decide what kind of country they wanted, and by what means, if any, it was going to be held together.
That time may be now, and even if they make it through this crisis, others are inevitable. The notion that we could go in and remake another society — install new expectations, mindsets, cultural norms and democratic ideologies, as if we were installing a new engine in a car — has been the glaring flaw in our Iraq strategy from the very beginning. There are still grounds for hope of at least some success long-term, but there’s an equal if not better chance that the Iraqis will revert to their old ways of doing things.
– Jay Bookman
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
819 comments Add your comment
josef
December 22nd, 2011
11:21 am
Bill Orvis White
“Just because Mr. Elton over there in England, Italy or in that secular part of Atlanta has a “husband” who is lean, muscular, tanned with a square jaw and dresses nice, doesn’t make him so darn special and doesn’t give him the right to say that God is dead.”
Seriously….
"Hussein" Kamchak ~ Sharia Law is just a code word for "fear" -- the monster under your bed
December 22nd, 2011
11:21 am
Oh, go ahead and admitit…he’s got your (our?) number and played us like a harp…
(Sigh) Another case of: Still a man hears what he wants to hear. And disregards the rest.
The Leg Lamp is a “major award”….
December 22nd, 2011
11:21 am
Peter
December 22nd, 2011
11:18 am
And you still have extremists on the opposite end of the spectrum who believe 911 was manufactured by Uncle Sam.
Roekest
December 22nd, 2011
11:22 am
You can’t force a democracy on people who are not democratic by nature.
Butch Cassidy
December 22nd, 2011
11:22 am
josef – “Not just that…that’s just one of many such attacks on the Kurds…I’m not passing judgment but it was not a limited thing…I wasn’t being critical…”
No problem, and I agreee that the Kurds definitely could have used our assistance back in the 80’s. However, there was a good reason for not invading the Middle East. A reason that ironically was supported by both Cheney and Bush I at that time. It was the problem that the U.S. would not be able to affect long term change in that region, and committing to a full scale invasion would do nothing but bog down our military forces for years and waste our money and resources. Sadly, they were right.
Finn McCool
December 22nd, 2011
11:22 am
Long before running for president, Newt Gingrich was the most prominent American politician to embrace the idea that Shariah poses a major threat to the United States.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/22/us/politics/in-shariah-gingrich-sees-mortal-threat-to-us.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss
Conservatives just have to create their own boogeyman, don’t they. Keeps the gullible voters in line.
mission accomplished
December 22nd, 2011
11:23 am
There’s really not much left to say. We made a colossal blunder in 2003 doing what we did.
AmVet - Just say no to the War Pigs.
December 22nd, 2011
11:23 am
Butch, likely so.
And why I have advocated a policy proposed by Ralph Nader…
Draft from the Top.
President Bush believes that the war in Iraq is “worth the sacrifice.” The question then becomes – sacrifice by whom?
What about George Bush’s daughters – Jenna and Barbara? Prince Harry served in Afghanistan. Senator Jim Webb and Senator John McCain each have a son who has served in Iraq.
During World War II four of Franklin Delano Roosevelt’s sons entered the armed forces, as did General Eisenhower’s son, John Eisenhower.
No double standard for them.
So, why not Jenna and Barbara Bush? And why not military service for the children of all members of Congress – who have funded this criminal war in Iraq?
There is a certain moral authority to govern – setting an example – sharing in the sacrifice initiated by the White House – that escape George W. Bush and Dick Cheney and their enablers in Congress.
They have children who have declined to serve during the Iraq war.
While almost four thousand young American men and women have died in this needless, criminal war. And tens of thousands have been seriously injured.
Why the double standard?
We have a simple cure for this double standard.
It’s called – draft at the top.
Pass a law that says this – whenever Congress and the White House take our country to war, all able-bodied military-age children of every member of Congress, the President and the Vice-President will be conscripted automatically into the armed forces.
Word.
MoneyTalks
December 22nd, 2011
11:23 am
to calm things down, perhaps the u.s. should send $30-$40 billion more in cash over there as a “goodwill” gesture to the government.
Adam
December 22nd, 2011
11:24 am
all I can say is none of will ever actually know the truth about WMD’s in Iraq, etc
AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
*deep breath*
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!
The Leg Lamp is a “major award”….
December 22nd, 2011
11:24 am
Finn McCool
December 22nd, 2011
11:22 am
“Keeps the gullible voters in line.”
You mean like Barack’s pizza delivery photo-op?
josef
December 22nd, 2011
11:24 am
Bill Orvis
Good show! Look at who you’ve got jumping!
The Leg Lamp is a “major award”….
December 22nd, 2011
11:25 am
AmVet – Just say no to the War Pigs.
December 22nd, 2011
11:23 am
I understand your perspective, but this is how an all volunteer military operates.
Welcome to the Occupation
December 22nd, 2011
11:25 am
A dad: “Despite all the scraifice by the U.S. – lives, money, etc., did anyone really beleive that a culture that is essentially unchanged since 14th and 15th century Sultanates would ever change?”
As I said above, dad, what makes you think “nothing has changed” in Iraq since the times of the Sultanates? There’s been enormous change.
And when you say: “And what a culture. Blowing up your enemies women and children is not only acceptable, but it’s a ticket to heaven”
Don’t you realize there were no people “blowing up your enemies” and thinking it was a “ticket to heaven” in Iraq before we went in? Which is not to say it wasn’t a brutal dictatorship under Saddam, but let’s be clear about what we’re saying here. As I challenged Jay with earlier, it’s precisely our insistence on imposing a false “evolutionary” historical and cultural framework on this part of the world — one in which we of course see ourselves as the civilized and “advanced” ones — that is in this case DIRECTLY responsible for our inability to really understand what we’ve wrought in these countries. And that goes for Afghanistan too.
RB from Gwinnett
December 22nd, 2011
11:26 am
“You do realize that’s an open-ended commitment that could have American forces and treasure there for decades?”
Sure I do. You do realize we still have troops in Germany and Japan, don’t you? Why no outrage about that?
Bottom line is the Middle East is unstable from one side to the other and our interests are better served if we A: have a base of operations there if needed, and B: are able to develop a model of freedom there that the oppressed people in the region might look at and decide for themselves they want what the Iraqi’s have. How realistic that is I don’t know, but I know rebellion and dictators who hate us in the ME is not good news for anybody.
Peter
December 22nd, 2011
11:26 am
Hey The Leg Lamp is a “major award”…. Yes I agree with your statement.
Personally I think 911 happened because Bush wasn’t paying attention to foreign policy, he was allowing California to be bilked by his energy buddies, so the governor would be thrown out, and Arnold could become governor…trying to make California a Republican state.
Also what I have read is the CIA and FBI were playing power games between themselves, and the information about these guys being here trained at US flight schools was totally missed.
Another colossal failure by the Bush administration to keep America Safe. I think Bush was dumbfounded when it happened !
RB from Gwinnett
December 22nd, 2011
11:29 am
Adam – “Given how your first post of the day was a Fox News article, I am not surprised that you have NO IDEA what is going on with legislated voter suppression.”
You could have simply posted “I made up some crap from things I heard on the View and don’t want to post anything resembling an actual news story”. That’ll be fine next time.
Adam
December 22nd, 2011
11:31 am
RB: You do realize we still have troops in Germany and Japan, don’t you? Why no outrage about that?
Because we aren’t trying to “nation build” there, and they have agreed that we can be there. And there are no ongoing military engagements there. Among other things.
TaxPayer
December 22nd, 2011
11:31 am
My question got moderated! Why?
Doggone/GA
December 22nd, 2011
11:31 am
“all I can say is none of will ever actually know the truth about WMD’s in Iraq, etc”
You DO realize, don’t you, that if we’ll NEVER know the “truth” – that is the same thing as if they never existed? Since we didn’t find any, and they were never used…that is exactly the same thing as saying they don’t exist.
Bill Orvis White
December 22nd, 2011
11:31 am
@josef
Like I wrote, over 985 secular progressives served…would you like to be 986? There’s a free market, patriotic Chinese-made Walmart oil-produced plastic mood ring in it for you. BTW, I love you. You know, hate the sin, love the sinner. I would be honored to have a right wing over at that liberal UGA school named after me. I would totally balance out that hateful socialistic lady Cynthia Tucker.
Merry Christmas/Amen,
Bill
AmVet - Just say no to the War Pigs.
December 22nd, 2011
11:32 am
Lamp, if that is the justification, that it is somehow less egregious to slaughter our troops by sending them to that meat-grinder in the sand, all because they voluntarily enlisted, to hell with that.
(And I’m not saying you have endorsed that.)
Those young men and women are our irreplaceable treasure. And they should never, ever be used just to make men with tiny scrotums feels better about themselves.
Because no matter how many ways the cowards and neo-cons spun this (and they tried numerous ones), this chosen invasion/occupation had NOTHING AT ALL to do with our national security.
And GWB and his inner gang of war-criminals should have faced charges in the Hague.
Adam
December 22nd, 2011
11:32 am
RB: In this instance, I’m definitely not doing your research for you. But to help you with you Google search, look up “Voter ID laws.” Add “Eric Holder” or “Justice Department” if you want to see what the DoJ thinks.
Paul
December 22nd, 2011
11:32 am
RB from Gwinnett
“You do realize we still have troops in Germany and Japan, don’t you? Why no outrage about that?”
I’ve long advocated a nearly complete withdrawal of ground forces. But if you mean, why no public outrage?
Big, big difference between Iraq, Japan and Germany. It’s been decades since American military have been killed or faced the possibility of death from the forces of Imperial Japan or Hitler’s army.
In Iraq, it’s…. how long ago is today?
Thulsa Doom
December 22nd, 2011
11:34 am
Adam,
I see that you and others have already started with your revisionist history about the Iraq war. Now for a reality check.
The Iraq war was started with strong Democratic support. H.J.Res. 114 passed the House of Representatives by a vote of 296-133, and passed the Senate by a vote of 77-23. Eighty-two Democrats in the House (40% of their number) and 29 Democrats in the Senate (50% of their number) also supported the action.
Did the Dems believe that Saddamm had WMDs before W became potus and did the Dems believe military action may be necessary? I’ll let their quotes answer for me. There are so many of these quotes from people like the Clintons, Kerry, Gore, Pelosi, Madeleine Albright, and even Ted Kennedy that its not even funny.
And of course some silly lib will respond that it was W who actually invaded Iraq. Well of course! And with substantial Democratic support as I’ve just demonstrated.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/wmdquotes.asp
Jerry Frey
December 22nd, 2011
11:36 am
Why was George Bush compelled to invade Iraq, if there were no WMDs?
Find out in seconds.
http://napoleonlive.info/did-you-know/facts-about-the-iraq-invasion/
Normal
December 22nd, 2011
11:37 am
Bill Orvis White probably has a Framed picture of Jim Jones in his office, along side a white, blonde, Jesus Christ…
Paul
December 22nd, 2011
11:37 am
TaxPayer
You question got moderated because you’re one of the 49% who don’t pay taxes, that’s why!
RB
“ur interests are better served if we A: have a base of operations there if needed”
Ever heard of Qatar? Bahrain?
“, and B: are able to develop a model of freedom there that the oppressed people in the region might look at and decide for themselves they want what the Iraqi’s have.”
I wrote years ago on this blog the armchair theorists chickenhawks advising the Bush Administration looked at the dictatorships in the ME as being at risk from AQ, that the theorists viewed Iraq as being largely secular and educated with a vibrant middle class, so to get rid of Saddam and establish a democratic government would serve as a model for the dictatorships as they transferred to more democratic participation and negated AQ’s efforts.
And like so many things pronounced by theorists far removed from reality, it didn’t work.
Adam
December 22nd, 2011
11:38 am
I have another quote for you Thulsa:
“Of course we wouldn’t have gone into Iraq if we knew they didn’t have weapons of mass destruction”
Your attempt to make it seem like Democrats supported the Iraq war knowing what we know now. THAT is revisionist history. Bush pushed for the war, and made every excuse in the book to get us there. He directed his people to find a way. And they did! It doesn’t matter if Bush made up the intelligence or if someone else did. What matters is WE WERE LIED INTO THE WAR.
Normal
December 22nd, 2011
11:39 am
“Why was George Bush compelled to invade Iraq”
Because God told him to…
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1007-03.htm
carlosgvv
December 22nd, 2011
11:40 am
AmVet – “children of every member of congress….will be conscripted”
Of course you know that WILL NEVER EVER HAPPEN. Should but won’t.
josef
December 22nd, 2011
11:40 am
Bill
Nyanh…not out to be “served,” but I will take a dozen mood rings! I’ve always said Hattiestown is full of surprises…ferget UGA, I nominate you for a wing at USM…
Aquagirl
December 22nd, 2011
11:41 am
The Taliban is really an effective organization in many ways….this ain’t over, my friends, not by a long shot.
We’re talking about Iraq and Kayaker is muttering about the Taliban. Jumpin’ Jeebus.
This is why we get into these overseas adventures. Our most belligerent citizens haven’t a clue.
Paul
December 22nd, 2011
11:41 am
Jerry Frey
Jesus wasn’t blonde, He was a brunette. It made for a striking combination with His blue eyes and it’s what got him noticed in the first place.
Seriously, all cultures tend to represent deity in a means with which they can identify. I take it as symbolism.
stranger in a strange land
December 22nd, 2011
11:41 am
Tairq and Nouri, all together now: Happy days are here again the skies above are clear again…
Thulsa Doom
December 22nd, 2011
11:43 am
“Long before running for president, Newt Gingrich was the most prominent American politician to embrace the idea that Shariah poses a major threat to the United States”- finn mccool
Well finn,sharia may not pose a direct threat to the U.S. but it most certainly is a part of the hard line religious extremists who could be taking over Egypt, Libya, and possibly other Arab nations. And that sir is a threat.
And in case you haven’t noticed in Britain, France, and other Western European nations in Muslim enclaves they want or already have started using sharia law which is undermining and destabilizing to those countries. Certainly won’t happen here but the fact that sharia law is a negative force in middle eastern governance I would think you and other libs would be concerned. After all some of you certainly seem concerned when you voice your nonsensical rhetoric about the theocracy that Christians want to impose on us here in the U.S.
Political Mongrel
December 22nd, 2011
11:44 am
So, our “goal” in Iraq was to replace Hussein with a democratically-elected government that was strong enough to stand on its own feet. That government was strong enough to maneuver Bush into signing the agreement that forced us out by Dec. 2011, which Obama bashers tried to blame him for when he could no more push them around on this issue than could Bush. Be careful what you wish for.
Adam
December 22nd, 2011
11:44 am
Well finn,sharia may not pose a direct threat to the U.S. but it most certainly is a part of the hard line religious extremists who could be taking over Egypt, Libya, and possibly other Arab nations. And that sir is a threat.
The Mooslim Fear is strong in this one….
"Hussein" Kamchak ~ Sharia Law is just a code word for "fear" -- the monster under your bed
December 22nd, 2011
11:45 am
…along side a white, blonde, Jesus Christ…
I’m thinking something along the lines of Fabio.
Welcome to the Occupation
December 22nd, 2011
11:45 am
Thulsa Doom, the American political leadership — with near unanimous support from its power-mongering, sycophantic mainstream media — wanted this war and it got it. There were a few dissenters — one of them being the current occupant of the White House.
One of the other dissenters — one Sen. Robert Byrd of WV — gave us one of our more eloquent anti-militarist meditations that have ever been expressed on the Senate floor, not to mention being one of the most prophetic warnings of what was about to happen as a result of this disastrous war.
A U.S. invasion of Iraq that proved successful and which resulted in the overthrow of the government would not be a simple effort. The aftermath of that effort would require a long term occupation. The President has said that he would overthrow Saddam Hussein and establish a new government that would recognize all interest groups in Iraq. This would presumably include the Kurds to the north and the Shiite Muslims to the south. Because the entire military and security apparatus of Iraq would have to be replaced, the U.S. would have to provide interim security throughout the countryside. This kind of nation-building cannot be accomplished with the wave of a wand by some fairy godmother, even one with the full might and power of the world’s last remaining superpower behind her.
zeke
December 22nd, 2011
11:45 am
thulsa, please enlist
getalife
December 22nd, 2011
11:46 am
They lied about wmd’s and cons like a dad can’t even admit this proven fact.
Pathetic.
When lil john said lil kim is burning in hell I thought lil john and all those that voted and supported the Iraq occupation will join him.
getalife
December 22nd, 2011
11:48 am
And right on cue, willard flip flops on Iraq.
willard will never be President.
Kamchak
December 22nd, 2011
11:48 am
Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (Ky.) on Thursday called on House Republicans to pass a short-term deal to extend the payroll tax cut while talks continue over how to pay for a year-long cut.
In his first statement on the issue since Sunday, McConnell urged the House Republicans to pass an extension to prevent “any disruption the payroll tax holiday or other expiring provisions, and allows Congress to work on a solution for the longer extensions.”
Somebody blinked.
AmVet - Just say no to the War Pigs.
December 22nd, 2011
11:49 am
Had NO Republicans been allowed to vote on the matter, the United States would never have invaded Iraq. The Democrats voted against the measure in such numbers that nearly 5,000 Americans in uniform would still be alive.
But throw in 97%+ of the lockstep Republicowards, and voila!
The Boy Emperor gets his prime time chance to demonstrate exactly how to bungle and utterly mismanage every single act of a military campaign.
Of course there was some complicity by the chickenhawk Democrats, but this was/is a REPUBLICAN WAR.
Own it Saxby sycophants. That river of lost American blood is on the hands of the men you elected and enabled.
RB from Gwinnett
December 22nd, 2011
11:49 am
“Because we aren’t trying to “nation build” there”
We arnen’t now, since we ALREADY DID THAT POST WAR.
Do you ever consider thinking?
getalife
December 22nd, 2011
11:51 am
Now the pathetic cons want to elect another idiot to occupy Iran.
They repeat mistakes because they are not held accountable.
Thulsa Doom
December 22nd, 2011
11:53 am
Adam,
“Your attempt to make it seem like Democrats supported the Iraq war knowing what we know now”. All I did was simply lay out the numbers of Dems who voted in favor of the war. The facts are right there for you to peruse.
We don’t have crystal balls Adam. Numerous dems supported war because of their belief also going back to Clinton in 98 that Saddam had or was developing WMDs and that was what 6 major intelligence svcs from the CIA to the Israeli, German, British, French, and Russian svcs believed. The fact that they may have been wrong doesn’t mean Bush concocted a whole story to bring us to war. It simply means the intelligence was wrong. Sheesh! Please tell me how W made up intelligence from other sources.I was unaware that he controlled the intelligence svcs of foreign nations. Please elaborate.
And also Kerry and others on the intelligence committee had access to the same intelligence. Did W, you know that idiot ya’ll are also calling an idiot, manage to bamboozle all these much smarter dems like Kerry?
And when President Clinton was making a speech in 98 claiming Iraq had WMDs was Bush somehow whispering all this in his ear from his governor’s office in Texas? When you review all these quotes from Clinton administration officials in the 90s about Saddam’s WMDs please explain how W lied to them when he was nowhere near Washington, DC? This nonsense should be real interesting.
St Simons - we're on Island time
December 22nd, 2011
11:54 am
“sharia law …blahblahblah…is a threat”
Not near as good as Billl Orvis White’s satire.
Needs more cowbell
Bobby
December 22nd, 2011
11:56 am
We chose to destablize a stable government in the name of regime change that posed no threat to the U.S. So, yes, Iraq may indeed be regressing thanks to Neal Boortz and Sean Hannity amongst other hawk Republicans who have never served in the U.S. armed forces.
RB from Gwinnett
December 22nd, 2011
11:57 am
Adam, why don’t you just post for me which governor is keeping anybody from voting. If you’re referring to Voter ID laws, why don’t you also post for us all the number of people who were denied their right to vote in the last election here in GA since the law was in effect then.
Ya’ll need to face the facts. The ONLY reason you want these voter ID laws overturned is you know there are low life D’s out there voting as many times as they can get away with using dead people, relatives, pretty much anybody they can find with a power bill in their names and you know it.
josef
December 22nd, 2011
11:57 am
PAUL
Why can’t Jesus be blond and blue-eyed? He’s my cuddin you know…
That one never ceases to amuse me…you know, all us Jews look alike, we’re all swarthy with big hook noses and kinky hair!
The Ethiopian Christ icons follow their looks, the Maronite, theirs, the Orthodox theirs and the Western Churches, theirs…
Even at the time of the Christ the Levant was the crossroads of the world and had folks from all over…he could have looked like anybody…
Kamchak
December 22nd, 2011
11:57 am
Sharia Law is Jude Law’s older sister.
Just sayin’.
getalife
December 22nd, 2011
11:58 am
Like with w’s economic collapse, his Iraqi occupation consequences will play out for a decade or so.
Actions always have consequences and the w disaster is far from over.
You idiots can repent all you want but you will see saddam again.
Adam
December 22nd, 2011
11:58 am
We arnen’t now, since we ALREADY DID THAT POST WAR.
Do you ever consider thinking?
If THAT kind of logic is what qualifies as “thinking,” then no thanks. Let’s stay on the topic a bit, shall we? Comparing current military bases in allied territory is in no way comparable to what they USED to be. That’s like saying “Republicans ended slavery” as though it reflects on the modern day party.
RG Readmore
December 22nd, 2011
11:59 am
Hey Bill Orvis —
Will you be blessing your fellow bloggers with a BOW rendition of ‘Twas the Night Before Christmas this year? I sure hope so.
Thanks,
RG
P.S. For those that haven’t seen it, the 2009 version is on his website.
Thulsa Doom
December 22nd, 2011
12:00 pm
“Well finn,sharia may not pose a direct threat to the U.S. but it most certainly is a part of the hard line religious extremists who could be taking over Egypt, Libya, and possibly other Arab nations. And that sir is a threat.
The Mooslim Fear is strong in this one….”
Adam,
And you deny that the religious radicals have a significant role if not the dominant role in the opposition that may take over Egypt and Libya? You sound a lot like Neville Chamberlain denying that Hitler was a real threat to Europe. Do you have any idea just how silly you really sound when you discount the danger of hard line religious radicals taking over or at least having a significant role in new govts in new govts in the middle east? Even you cannot possibly be that dumb.
Normal
December 22nd, 2011
12:01 pm
Josef,
Not saying He couldn’t be white, blue eyed, just saying that a Scandinavian Jesus seems to be the preferred model to the ultra “christian” (and no, I won’t capitalize that one)
Kamchak
December 22nd, 2011
12:01 pm
You sound a lot like Neville Chamberlain denying that Hitler was a real threat to Europe.
Hitler.
Sooooooooooo predictable.
F. Sinkwich
December 22nd, 2011
12:03 pm
By removing all US combat troops out of Iraq, O’bozo initiated the first of his plan to transfer Iraqi sovereignty to the mullahs in Iran.
Adam
December 22nd, 2011
12:03 pm
RB: If you’re referring to Voter ID laws, why don’t you also post for us all the number of people who were denied their right to vote in the last election here in GA since the law was in effect then.
I do not accept the logical jiggery pokery you just did there, making me have to somehow prove that people didn’t get the chance to vote. This shows me you know EXACTLY what the problem with Voter ID laws is, and you think trotting out the typical nonsense points that there’s some kind of mass attempt to steal elections without them is the way to go. You don’t even care if people agree with you.
And, by the way, if you were serious about discussing any of these issues, you’d be asking serious questions instead of making as many declaratives as you can type out.
Thulsa Doom
December 22nd, 2011
12:03 pm
“Even at the time of the Christ the Levant was the crossroads of the world and had folks from all over…he could have looked like anybody…”
josef,
Jesus was 1/4 Croatian roma, 50% German, and 1/4 Scots Irish. Of that I’m sure.
RB from Gwinnett
December 22nd, 2011
12:03 pm
“Your attempt to make it seem like Democrats supported the Iraq war knowing what we know now. ”
Adam, for you to claim prominent D’s didn’t make the same conclusions about SH, his WMD’s, and his threat to us and the world before we went to Iraq is just wrong. And you are either ignorant of what happened then or your lying about it now. Take your pick, Adam. You can’t dispute the facts and there is far too much evidence available to you to claim it didn’t happen.
Kamchak
December 22nd, 2011
12:03 pm
Lib ilk alert!
Peter
December 22nd, 2011
12:04 pm
Jerry Frey
December 22nd, 2011
11:36 am
Why was George Bush compelled to invade Iraq, if there were no WMDs?
Power, greed, helping the family business for starters.
History and the never mind what we did before!
December 22nd, 2011
12:04 pm
American’s need of going to war seems to hinder on who or what makes the money. Over 50,000 American lives were lost in vietnam war and now 40 years later we are buying pants, shirts, and other items in our market from Vietnam.. At the same time ,Vietnam is still communist country.We really made a change there. Now Iraq;I’m sure we will ask the same questions in less than 40 years.In less than a year we will see total change of what we left.All for the almighty dollar!! What a shame for our country and the lives that were lost for who knows what. Maybe next time before we jump to war we will look at our history and ask the questions that need to be asked. But I have a strong feeling that will never happen.
getalife
December 22nd, 2011
12:04 pm
No Filk.
No more US casualties for w’s occupation.
The blood is on your hands and your soul is black.
Thulsa Doom
December 22nd, 2011
12:06 pm
And the chihuahua snaps his little snout.
sam
December 22nd, 2011
12:06 pm
its going to ugly over there for a long time….
getalife
December 22nd, 2011
12:07 pm
I think when their government collapses, every pol that voted for this occupation should work in Iraq’s government until there is peace.
josef
December 22nd, 2011
12:07 pm
Readmore
Isn’t that one good!
His eyes-how they delighted! his sh*t-eating smirk, how merry!
His cheeks were like roses, his nose like a cherry!
His crooked mouth was drawn up like a bow,
And the drool of his chin was as white as the snow.
The patriotic tobacco he held tight in his teeth,
And the stench it encircled his head like a wreath.
He had a fat face and big a33 belly,
That shook when he laughed, like a bowlful of jelly!
Anybody besides me and Readmore know who this is?
RB from Gwinnett
December 22nd, 2011
12:08 pm
Adam – “If THAT kind of logic is what qualifies as “thinking,” then no thanks. ”
How in the hell do you think Japan and Germany went from being our enemies to being our friends after WW2? Do you not think our troops were engaged in nation building after we defeated them? Seriously, do you ever actually think?
josef
December 22nd, 2011
12:09 pm
Thulsa
Paul
December 22nd, 2011
12:09 pm
josef
“Even at the time of the Christ the Levant was the crossroads of the world and had folks from all over…he could have looked like anybody…”
A darn good point. Thank you.
Reminds me of when my first child was born. I called my grandma and said ’some people say he looks like me, others say he looks like Mrs. Paul and….”
she cut me off with “oh for Pete’s sake. He looks like himself!”
Good lesson there on how we view our kids.
Michael
December 22nd, 2011
12:09 pm
An ode to Bill Orvis White
B.O.W. – WOW
godless heathen
December 22nd, 2011
12:09 pm
“Even you cannot possibly be that dumb.”
Possibly so.
Adam
December 22nd, 2011
12:11 pm
RB: Seriously, do you ever actually think?
Putting “seriously” in front of a question does not automatically make it a serious question.
You are attempting to make the answer to your original question wrong somehow. You have lost that battle. But keep digging if you must.
josef
December 22nd, 2011
12:17 pm
PAUL
Good one. I may have posted this before, so forgive me if I repeat, but it’s the perogative of old age and bloggers…
When I was born, the doctor delivering me had been my mother’s beau when she jilted him and married my father. Needless to say, he didn’t hold my dad in the highest regard. Anyway, as he was checking me out, he began to laugh. Mama of course wanted to know what was wrong with her baby. “Well, he’s definitely Charlie’s. He’s got 11 toes!”
David
December 22nd, 2011
12:18 pm
“May be regressing” . . . really? You think? I’ll bet you’re even surprised that it’s so, right Jay? You liberals are so naive its ridiculous. Did you REALLY believe that the job was done there, and that the Shia’s and Sunni’s would all just sit down together and sing campfire songs together? But, all you really want to do is praise Obama for keeping his campaign promise to get us out. You don’t care about the fact that doing so in this way is an insult to the American soldiers that gave their lives to give Iraq a chance at democracy.
Thulsa Doom
December 22nd, 2011
12:19 pm
Power, greed, helping the family business for starters.- peter
How so Peter? And please don’t say Halliburton since Cheney, Rumsfeld and I’m assuming W were all divested of Halliburton holdings.
rm
December 22nd, 2011
12:19 pm
im sorry, i know its off topic but the folks who bash FOX news…if FOX is just a front for conservative lies what do you call, CNN, MSNBC, NPR, NBC, New York Times, LA Times,etc, etc. You cant have it both ways. The right isnt always wrong and the left isnt always right. You sound like childeren. Please explain your ignorning of the left slant in some media outlets. And dont answer with the typical killing of the messanger and ignoring the message attack. Though I think I just answered my own question…
RB from Gwinnett
December 22nd, 2011
12:20 pm
Adam, you’re making it clear you have no intention of debating the acutal issue being discussed, but would instead like to argue about the text of the message, etc. You’re a typical liberal, Adam, and an outright liar. This will be my last post to you discussion issues because you’ve proven yourself not worth the bother because if you can’t debate an issue, you’ll either lie or change the subject. You’re not worth it. Go waste somebody else’s time with your childish behavior.
getalife
December 22nd, 2011
12:21 pm
There will probably be Shiite and Sunni roles reversed.
The Shiites will oppress the Sunnis for a few decades for payback.
Also, the next terror attack here will be carried out by Iraqis.
Jay
December 22nd, 2011
12:22 pm
No, David, I am not surprised. I was saying that this would be the eventual outcome nine years ago, before we even launched this endeavor.
You, on the other hand, seem to have bought the sales job.
Thulsa Doom
December 22nd, 2011
12:22 pm
Seriously, do you ever actually think?- RB to Adam
No.
Another one word answer to a question that has perplexed us all.
josef
December 22nd, 2011
12:25 pm
JAY
Since you’re here…your take on the Kurds and all this….?
Adam
December 22nd, 2011
12:26 pm
RB: Adam, you’re making it clear you have no intention of debating the acutal issue being discussed, but would instead like to argue about the text of the message, etc.
This is called projection. I answered your question and you focused on a small part of my answer to draw parallels between post-WW2 military efforts and today’s environment in the same countries. There is no reason for that, except to try to make my answer wrong somehow.
See, having military bases in Japan and Germany NOW is very very different than having them in Iraq NOW. It’s also very different from when we first put them there. There is no public outrage over Japan and Germany having US military bases NOW because of that difference.
Seriously, do you ever actually think?
Peter
December 22nd, 2011
12:28 pm
David, I guess thinks pouring Billions of American dollars into Iraq, and being a Peace keeping Army is what America should do with the American tax dollars.
George Bush never ever had a real concept of the “War” how it would go, or end…..the war was a way to make MONEY for a few period, and open up the oil bidding that Saddam wouldn’t allow.
The war was about the continued change or evaporation of the wealth from the middle class to the very wealthy. All the Bush policies have been about that, and the IRS has stated so, in the way the wealth in this country has moved the entire time of his presidency.
Adam
December 22nd, 2011
12:29 pm
RB: This will be my last post to you discussion issues
Good. I’d rather have a discussion with someone who’s serious about discussion, and doesn’t pretend that I am the one who is not being serious when he or she generates a rabbit hole and tries to say *I* changed the subject.
saywhat?
December 22nd, 2011
12:29 pm
F. Sinkwich
December 22nd, 2011
12:03 pm
“By removing all US combat troops out of Iraq, O’bozo initiated the first of his plan to transfer Iraqi sovereignty to the mullahs in Iran.”
Silly me. Here I thought it was Bush who initiated the transfer of Iraqi sovereignty to the Iranian Shiite mullahs by invading Iraq and toppling the Sunni regime in the first place.
Peter
December 22nd, 2011
12:29 pm
Ok Thulsa Doom… why can’t the auditors find billions of dollars spend on the Iraq war ?
josef
December 22nd, 2011
12:30 pm
I used to think. I thought all the time. My friends (both of them) said, “you think too much.” So, I went to the Newt School of Thought Control. I haven’t thought since. And what’s more I never want to again.
Kamchak
December 22nd, 2011
12:32 pm
Seriously, do you ever actually think?-Adam to RB
No.
Another one word answer to a question that has perplexed us all.
Saddam's Laughing from the Grave
December 22nd, 2011
12:32 pm
Arab muslims have been fighting for thousands of years. Due to the religious nature of the ruling leaders, supression and opression of differing sects will always be a battle. Which nation in the middle east does not an extremist ruler that rules with an iron fist and mass graves? This should have been a learning experience for the US, but due to their arrogance they probably have created the same problem in Libya and Syria and who knows who else will be destabilized next. Democrocy will not work their without genocide.
The Leg Lamp is a “major award”….
December 22nd, 2011
12:32 pm
Peter
December 22nd, 2011
12:29 pm
Could those same auditors find all the billions spent on the bailout?
They BOTH suck
December 22nd, 2011
12:33 pm
RB
“The ONLY reason you want these voter ID laws overturned is you know there are low life D’s out there voting as many times as they can get away with using dead people, relatives, pretty much anybody they can find with a power bill in their names and you know it.”
Im sure you can provide the factual data to back up this statement, right?
Peter
December 22nd, 2011
12:34 pm
The Leg Lamp is a “major award”…. Could those same auditors find all the billions spent on the bailout?
Wonderful question…….
Again it is all about the transfer of wealth in America to the VERY RICH !
HDB
December 22nd, 2011
12:34 pm
RB from Gwinnett
December 22nd, 2011
11:57 am
Walker – Wisconsin; Kasich – Ohio; Scott – Florida…..those are three to start!!
Jeb Bush disenfranchised over 25,000 in Florida in 2000…..
Ken Blackwell, Ohio Secretary of State (2000-2004) closed the polls while people were standing OUTSIDE WAITING to vote……..
There’s blatent evidence of voter suppression/disenfranchisement by the GOP!!
What’s being done now under the guise of voter-id as a “poll tax” which is ILLEGAL!!
It’s quite evident that the GOP wanted to change the laws to suppress the minority vote…..if voter fraud were able to be proven…..arrests would’ve been made…..wouldn’t it!!!
They BOTH suck
December 22nd, 2011
12:35 pm
David
“But, all you really want to do is praise Obama for keeping his campaign promise to get us out. You don’t care about the fact that doing so in this way is an insult to the American soldiers that gave their lives to give Iraq a chance at democracy.”
Was the Iraqi government begging the US to stay?
Do tell
thanks
Ken Stallings
December 22nd, 2011
12:35 pm
Jay Bookman,
As someone who actually fought the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, the reasons for entering the war were multiple and have already been debated and agreed upon by Congress and the White House (including those many who initially agreed but then tried to act like they did not when things got too messy for their political careers)!
Wars are always messy and bloody human efforts. What makes war something that can lead to a good result is what is done with the peace that immediately follows. Obama got the excuse he was looking for — an initial balk by the Iraqi government of a renewal of the SOFA (Status of Forces Agreement), which is integral to basing troops in Iraq. The Iraqis have always thrown up an initial objection to the terms of the SOFA, but negotiation has previously resulted in a new SOFA.
This time, Obama seized his opportunity and never entered negotiations with the government.
The legacy of this war is as much Obama’s as George W. Bush’s. It is sophomoric and frankly self-serving political spin to assert that Obama is insulated from the results, which seems to be a rather popular effort among the bloggers here.
The truth is there are millions of lives in Iraq who want what we want — a stable and peaceful democracy. There are power-hungry men in that region (especially in Iran) who don’t want that and will murder people in large numbers to keep it from happening. The US military was a bulwark between those millions who want peaceful democracy, and those power-hungry men who will do anything to prevent it.
If you are going to pull out our military, then you bear the responsibility for the consequences just as much as those who bear the responsibility for sending the troops in. People speak of nine years in Iraq as though the period from 2003 to 2011 is unprecedented. In fact, our occupation troops in Germany and Japan stayed much, much longer. People should truly think upon the outcomes in Japan and Germany had we pulled out all of our forces in 1953. The Berlin Airlift would have been an initial effort to counter a Soviet takeover that would have failed because of early withdrawal.
I fail to regard Iran as a more powerful foe than was the Soviet Union of Joe Stalin and his follow-on Soviet leaders. Perhaps the real issue is that in the period of the Cold War our politicians, journalists and citizens had more resolve to stand up to evil when and where it counted!