In Iraq, the old ways of doing things may be reasserting themselves

Iraqi security personnel arrive at the scene of a massive car bombing in downtown Baghdad. (AP photo)

Iraqi security personnel arrive at the scene of a massive car bombing in downtown Baghdad. (AP photo)

If you haven’t been following events in Iraq recently, here’s an update:

Iraqi Vice President Tariq al-Hashimi, the most prominent Sunni in government, has been accused of using his security entourage as a hit squad. Members of his security squad have confessed, but al-Hashimi claims that the confessions were obtained through torture, which is certainly plausible.

Al-Hashimi has fled to the Kurdish area of Iraq to avoid arrest. Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has demanded that the Kurds surrender al-Hashimi, warning “there will be problems” if he is not handed over. He has also threatened to disband the governing coalition, creating a serious political crisis.

And now this, as reported in The Washington Post:

BAGHDAD — More than a dozen explosions in Baghdad over a two-hour period Thursday morning killed at least 63 people–the first major violence in Iraq since the U.S. completed its troop pullout last week and a political crisis broke out.

At least 185 people were reported injured in the bombings, said officials at the Ministry of Interior, who were speaking on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly.

The coordinated wave of attacks began around 6:30 a.m. local time (10:30 p.m. Wednesday in Washington). Witnesses said that all main roads and many government offices in the Iraqi capital remained closed for hours after.

I can’t say any of this is a surprise. While U.S. troops hadn’t been involved in security efforts in Iraq for more than a year, it’s hard to argue that it’s mere coincidence that this crisis has developed so shortly after their departure from the country. We’re still deeply involved in Iraqi affairs — CIA Director David Petraeus is in the country now, meeting with Iraqi leaders — but the country is clearly under their control, not ours. They will determine its fate.

We were there for almost nine years. If U.S. troops had remained for another five years, they might have been able to prevent this current crisis — for another five years. Sooner or later, though, a time was going to come in which the Iraqis would have to decide what kind of country they wanted, and by what means, if any, it was going to be held together.

That time may be now, and even if they make it through this crisis, others are inevitable. The notion that we could go in and remake another society — install new expectations, mindsets, cultural norms and democratic ideologies, as if we were installing a new engine in a car — has been the glaring flaw in our Iraq strategy from the very beginning. There are still grounds for hope of at least some success long-term, but there’s an equal if not better chance that the Iraqis will revert to their old ways of doing things.

– Jay Bookman

819 comments Add your comment

Adam

December 22nd, 2011
8:48 am

Adam

December 22nd, 2011
8:49 am

This will certainly be used as a weapon against the Obama admin, as though them having internal struggles is all Obama’s fault when the very first action of the Bush admin upon arrival was to tell the existing army “Go home, and take your guns with you.”

Yes, I did blame Bush for starting this. I mean, he DID, after all.

Welcome to the Occupation

December 22nd, 2011
8:49 am

Meant to post this yesterday.

Amidst all the other worries, it now does appear — as I’ve feared all along — that it’s just a matter of time in Iraq. Much like Afghanistan.

Adam

December 22nd, 2011
8:51 am

Jay: That time may be now, and even if they make it through this crisis, others are inevitable. The notion that we could go in and remake another society — install new expectations, mindsets, cultural norms and democratic ideologies, as if we were installing a new engine in a car — has been the glaring flaw in our Iraq strategy from the very beginning

Well, technically, if we stayed long enough for all the current generations to die off and new ones to take their places, say on the order of 30-60 years, it COULD work :lol:

Welcome to the Occupation

December 22nd, 2011
8:51 am

To Adam: “Yes, I did blame Bush for starting this. I mean, he DID, after all.”

Indeed. What is happening here is 100% — as in one hundred percent — the FAULT of US imperial aggression and meddling.

As in other areas of the world,

Granny Godzilla

December 22nd, 2011
8:52 am

While my heart goes out to the Iraqi’s…..

there but for the grace of God, the wisdom of our President and the will of the American people – it could have been more of our boys and girls.

Aquagirl

December 22nd, 2011
8:55 am

Mission accomplished, Shrub.

RB from Gwinnett

December 22nd, 2011
8:56 am

Gee, I can’t seem to find any mention of this story on AJC.com….

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/12/21/officials-plead-guilty-in-new-york-voter-fraud-case/?test=latestnews

Not surprising…

Normal

December 22nd, 2011
8:56 am

Heck people, you knew this would happen when we left. The Iraqi religious factions are going to “correct wrongs” perpertrated on them from as far back as the fourth century. Iran will win this one, My guess is that they are behind it.

This is why it was such a Gawd awful mistake to get rid of Saddam. He was the buffer between Iran and the rest of the world…and he was contained. It is never a good idea to trade a devil you know for one you don’t know.

Paul

December 22nd, 2011
8:57 am

“We were there for almost nine years. If U.S. troops had remained for another five years, they might have been able to prevent this current crisis — for another five years… The notion that we could go in and remake another society — install new expectations, mindsets, cultural norms and democratic ideologies, as if we were installing a new engine in a car — has been the glaring flaw in our Iraq strategy from the very beginning. ”

That encapsulates it well. We were keeping the little vent open on the pressure cooker. We stop keeping the vent clear, it plugs up and the pressure keeper explodes.

Maybe then-Sen Joe Biden had it right after all. Iraq becomes three states. Kurds, Sunnis and Sunnis.

Paul

December 22nd, 2011
8:58 am

Morning, RB

Fo-cus.

Normal

December 22nd, 2011
8:58 am

RB,
I think the AJC has more class than to print any thing the Fox “News” people have to say. By the way, how much of an overall percentage of voter fraud throughout the country is it?

Talking Head

December 22nd, 2011
8:58 am

So, do you think we will stay away from Iraq or be back in the next 3-5 years?

Adam

December 22nd, 2011
9:00 am

So, do you think we will stay away from Iraq or be back in the next 3-5 years?

The first chance the next Republican president gets, whenever that happens, we will be back. Otherwise, we will not.

Normal

December 22nd, 2011
9:01 am

Talking,
I hope we never go back. It’s their country, let them have their own destiny.

Aquagirl

December 22nd, 2011
9:01 am

Gee, I can’t seem to find any mention of this story on AJC.com

Gee, maybe the rest of us aren’t as obsessed with talking about ANYTHING but Bush’s utter failure.

Maybe we’re more concerned about the waste of 4500 American and countless Iraqi lives.

Maybe we’re more concerned with the turmoil that could create another war, because we’re not chickenhawks who cheer death from our armchairs.

YMMV, threadjacker.

carlosgvv

December 22nd, 2011
9:05 am

The question is not will Iraq desend into an all-out civil war. The question is – how long will it take The Military-Industrial-Complex to get us back into Iraq for another 8 to 10 years?

dw

December 22nd, 2011
9:06 am

Marry me Aquagirl! LOL

carlosgvv

December 22nd, 2011
9:07 am

Granny – 8:52

So God has decided to give grace to the American people but not to Iraq? Do you know how self-serving that sounds?

dw

December 22nd, 2011
9:08 am

The entire republican field with the exception of Ron Paul would have us back over there in 5 freakin minutes

jm

December 22nd, 2011
9:11 am

Way to go O

Another O fail

Welcome to the Occupation

December 22nd, 2011
9:11 am

Jay, herein lies our arrogance with regard not only to Iraq, but the entire Middle East.

The notion that we could go in and remake another society — install new expectations, mindsets, cultural norms and democratic ideologies, as if we were installing a new engine in a car …. There are still grounds for hope of at least some success long-term, but there’s an equal if not better chance that the Iraqis will revert to their old ways of doing things.

Just what “democratic ideologies” are you talking about here? And what “old ways” would Iraqis be going back to?

As far as I’m aware, Iraq — much like Afghanistan decades ago before it became ensnared in the US-/CIA-led guerrilla campaigns and back and forth between the US and USSR during the Cold War — was an entirely secular and modern country with a mature and well-developed (i.e. non-fundamentalist) political culture, and that despite the Saddam Hussein dictatorship. As with Afghanistan, if there is chaos and profound instability now, that’s largely — if not entirely — because of the country being sucked into the vortex of Cold War and post-Cold War (i.e. “War on Terror”) political dynamics.

dw

December 22nd, 2011
9:11 am

+1 Carlos

It really irks me when people say “god bless america” and the like as if WE are better than everyone else and deserve his blessing more. Its all a pretty fairytale anyways

RB from Gwinnett

December 22nd, 2011
9:14 am

“there but for the grace of God, the wisdom of our President and the will of the American people – it could have been more of our boys and girls.”

Don’t you mean because of the agreement Bush made with the Iraqi’s for us to leave this month? That is, in FACT, why we left when we did.

kayaker 71

December 22nd, 2011
9:15 am

The complete look of frustration on Peter O’toole’s face in Lawrence of Arabia still comes to mind when Anthony Quinn and Omar Shariff stormed out of the council which was meant to unite the nation. So much we can learn from a mere movie.

Peter

December 22nd, 2011
9:15 am

George Bush opened a can of worms and got maggots……We ourselves are still reeling from the immense waste of US taxpayers money, going there in the first place.

Yes Saddam was a butcher, and killer……BUT..now he is gone all of a sudden the tribal leaders are going to play nice ?

This society of what ever you want to call it, has been in fighting for a 1000 years. The lunacy of thinking we could come in there as a White Knight saving the people was NUTS.

The lunacy is we are broke because of it, and if another War starts because we are gone, then we could get financially wiped out because of it.

To top it all off the GOP war mongers still have no ideas how to pay for the train wreck they created.

The Right wing is so up in arms that Obama wants health care for all American’s as a waste of Money…and the RIGHT WING wants to be War mongers.

Iraq has proven to be a total failure for the typical American person, as we all know the money spent in Iraq could have done wonders for America’s infrastructure…..But hey the few who Profited from the war, would not be so happy today.

So who is really caring about the American People here ?

Aquagirl

December 22nd, 2011
9:16 am

Marry me Aquagirl!

Line forms to the left.

Seriously, what a partisan flunky. “OMG, there is no good spin on this debacle, let me try and distract everyone with some crap about voter fraud in New York.”

People like that are lucky Jay moderates this forum.

TimeForRealChange

December 22nd, 2011
9:17 am

RB: Don’t bother with facts, they don’t care.

Jay

December 22nd, 2011
9:17 am

Welcome, Iraq did not have and has never had a “a mature and well-developed (i.e. non-fundamentalist) political culture.” It had a brutal, tyrannical dictatorship, which is about the simplest, least-evolved system of governance possible.

I think you’re making the left-wing version of the right-wing mistake about exaggerating what we can accomplish in other countries. In your case, you’re attributing Iraq’s problems to things the United States has done, instead of giving the Iraqis credit or blame for it. Both are examples of cultural arrogance on our part.

Granny Godzilla

December 22nd, 2011
9:17 am

carlos

if that is how you care to interpret that…it is your issue.

do you know how nugatory your posts sounds?

kayaker 71

December 22nd, 2011
9:18 am

“Marry me Aquagirl”….. Gaud, what a nightmare.

Mick

December 22nd, 2011
9:19 am

I don’t care who gets credit, I’m glad we are out and we still need to shake afghanistan off our boots; are we not broke? How can a broke country wage war? Didn’t washington himself warn us to beware of “foreign entaglements”? We had a costly civil war ourselves, let these other countries sort it out and find their own destiny…

Paul

December 22nd, 2011
9:21 am

RB – jm

So what’s your solution?. Remain there, as someone else pointed out, until generations pass and the old hatreds fade?

Or is this just another “Obama….” post?

Welcome to the Occupation

December 22nd, 2011
9:23 am

kayaker: “The complete look of frustration on Peter O’toole’s face in Lawrence of Arabia still comes to mind when Anthony Quinn and Omar Shariff stormed out of the council which was meant to unite the nation. So much we can learn from a mere movie.”

Recall Lawrence staggering into the burned out village during the fighting he was largely spearheading? And think of how his contemptuous dismissal of the supposedly superstitious believe of the Arabs that the poor boy left behind should be left behind to die because “it is written”, only to have his intervention lead to an additional death. That’s not to say that everything he did war wrong — but the movie is apropos here because it illustrates the problem of the Middle East in the Western gaze.

The violence and barbarism we see — as with the explosions we see in Baghdad today — are just a mirror image of our own repressed barbarism which we have transplanted to their society, without recognizing it as largely the product of our own work.

larry

December 22nd, 2011
9:24 am

860 billion, thats the price tag so far for our ” shock and awe” . By the time you add in all of the veterans benefits, surgeries, mental health treatment and other needed treatments our men and women need, the price tag is going to be well over 2 trillion dollars over a 40 to 60 year period.

We could have spent that money in a better way!

RB from Gwinnett

December 22nd, 2011
9:24 am

Normal – “how much of an overall percentage of voter fraud throughout the country is it?”

The better question is “how much voter fraud is OK with you”? As long as it’s below 1% is that OK. Or 5%? Whats the number that YOUR candidates get cheated out of thats fine with you?

Bill Orvis White

December 22nd, 2011
9:25 am

The fact is that The Surge was working. The U.S. and her allies needed to stay and instead, this community organizer in chief, cut and ran. I saw this coming a mile away, yet no one listened to Bill. If Bill White were president, more dollars would go to The Pentagon to strengthen rightful operations like the War on Terror and the battle against Al-Qaeda in Iraq. This is why it is important to remove Hussein Obama from office as soon as possible. This once-free nation WILL be in peril if this “man” gets a second term. What an incompetent boob that the U.S. has for a leader! Is there anyone out there who agrees with this very accurate view?
Merry Christmas + Amen,
Bill

Granny Godzilla

December 22nd, 2011
9:28 am

RB

So you would prevent 1% to 5% voter fraud by cheating millions out of the right to vote?

Of course you would, because those for whom this requirement would be a hardship you think vote democratic.

Coal for you.

Peter

December 22nd, 2011
9:29 am

Go Bill Orvis White… Yes More Money to the Military, along with Amen…… HA HA HA.

Look at the Religious folks who love all that killing………Hey Bill why are we not taking ALL the Dictators Out ?

Cause they all don’t have OIL ?

Mick

December 22nd, 2011
9:30 am

bill orvis

I’m calling you out, you are a fraud :lol: Nice comic book character you’ve got going there, good luck with that &
Good Night
Merry Xmas
All Men
Mick

Peadawg

December 22nd, 2011
9:31 am

Let Iraqis do whatever Iraqis want to do. We have too much to worry about here in the U.S.

“Or is this just another “Obama….” post?” – Probably just another “Obama….” post. Like the 2nd comment being a “Bush…..” post.

Adam

December 22nd, 2011
9:33 am

RB: Don’t you mean because of the agreement Bush made with the Iraqi’s for us to leave this month? That is, in FACT, why we left when we did.

So you’re saying it’s Bush’s fault the Iraqis are fighting amongst themselves?

Paul

December 22nd, 2011
9:35 am

RB

Okay, I’ll play since you don’t seem to have any ideas of what we should have done if we’d kept military in Iraq.

“As long as it’s below 1% is that OK. Or 5%? ”

So you’re advocating government fiat decreeing a ‘good’ percentage and then issuing reams of new regulations on what to do and how to do it and then expanding the government to enforce it?

Bill Orvis White

December 22nd, 2011
9:35 am

@Mick
I’m the real thing – over 985 naive secular progressives have been served with my common sense conservatism and defense of Judeo-Christian principles.

@Peter
I’ll be the first to admit that this once-free nation has vital interests in Iraq and not in places like Zimbabwe. So? We need to invest in places where our vital interests are at stake in order for the Western world to operate.

Merry Christmas/Amen,
Bill

Welcome to the Occupation

December 22nd, 2011
9:36 am

Jay: “Welcome, Iraq did not have and has never had a “a mature and well-developed (i.e. non-fundamentalist) political culture.” It had a brutal, tyrannical dictatorship..”

Careful Jay, you’re starting to sound like — dare I say it? — the recently departed Hitch! :)

“(Iraq) has never had a “a mature and well-developed (i.e. non-fundamentalist) political culture.” It had a brutal, tyrannical dictatorship, the least-evolved system of governance possible.”

It’s this neat polarity — with us naturally conveniently ensconced on the right end — that I dispute. I reject the notion that our modern Western democracy, in its current state, is necessarily the end point of a linear evolutionary process, with the Middle East of course representing barbaric superstition in our imagination. I’m not defending our touting the dictatorship of Saddam Hussein of course — I fully accept and acknowledge its utter brutality and corruption to the core. What I’m saying is that it’s our refusal to see our own crucial role in the Middle East over recent decades, our cynical meddling and double-game of ruthless nation-state intervention even as we tout the ideals of liberal democracy for others to live up to (failing to abide by them ourselves of course), and as a result of this failure of vision and arrogance we are in a sense co-responsible for the state of these societies. As I mentioned above in light of Lawrence of Arabia, we contemptuously dismiss this part of the world for its superstition and immaturity, failing to see that our interventions only multiply the violence.

Mick

December 22nd, 2011
9:37 am

One of the unintended consequences of bush’s war of choice was to hand iraq over to iran on a platter of shiite. Sadam was a bad man but there was a balance of power in that region – no more. Is it the mission of the US to remove every bad man on the planet? Is that in the constitution? Help me out here pro iraq war people….

Peter

December 22nd, 2011
9:39 am

Please Bill this comment……

@Peter
I’ll be the first to admit that this once-free nation has vital interests in Iraq and not in places like Zimbabwe. So? We need to invest in places where our vital interests are at stake in order for the Western world to operate

If you really beleive the Iraq war was an investment…..WOW…… By the way for Whom ?

And really this…… “this once-free nation”…. what nation Bill are you talking about ?

Mona Lawrence

December 22nd, 2011
9:40 am

Any more interference in the middle east is a not brainer. We need to let them solve their own problems. NO MORE AMERICAN LIVES!!!!!!!

BlahBlahBlah

December 22nd, 2011
9:40 am

All those who claim “hardship” at the thought of showing ID to vote must really struggle every day in all the other places ID is routinely required.

Laughable.

Mick

December 22nd, 2011
9:41 am

bill orvis

OK – everyone has a mission, good luck with yours. Just do me a favor? Don’t assume that your mission will in any way affect my views – yours are irrelevant to reality…

stands for decibels

December 22nd, 2011
9:41 am

We were there for almost nine years. If U.S. troops had remained for another five years, they might have been able to prevent this current crisis — for another five years.

“It could last, you know, six days, six weeks. I doubt six months.”

godless heathen

December 22nd, 2011
9:42 am

“Is it the mission of the US to remove every bad man on the planet? Is that in the constitution? Help me out here pro iraq war people….”

See Egypt, Libya. Seems to be the doctrine of the Obama administration.

Peter

December 22nd, 2011
9:42 am

Bill it really sounds like Killing as an “Investment”….. is a sick way to go.

By the way you can’t condone killing and be Christian can you ?

BlahBlahBlah

December 22nd, 2011
9:42 am

You left wingers realize Ron Paul is the only 2012 candidate that will seriously push to scale back our worldwide military operations, right?

But if he runs 3rd party, you won’t give him the time of day. You’ll march in lockstep back to President Obama, and nothing will change.

Finn McCool (Run Newt, run! You da man!)

December 22nd, 2011
9:42 am

Boy am I glad we left that place beeter of than we found it 10 years ago! Whew!

[...] (blog)Baghdad bomb ratchets up worries about slide into sectarian violenceChristian Science MonitorIn Iraq, the old ways of doing things may be reasserting themselvesAtlanta Journal Constitution (blog)San Francisco Chronicle -Hindustan Times -Sydney [...]

Paul

December 22nd, 2011
9:43 am

Orvis White

What’s our vital interest in Iraq?

dw

December 22nd, 2011
9:44 am

Aquagirl’s snarkiness is truely a thing of beauty :) Love it

Kamchak

December 22nd, 2011
9:44 am

Like the 2nd comment being a “Bush…..” post.

:roll:

Adam

December 22nd, 2011
9:44 am

BlahBlahBlah: All those who claim “hardship” at the thought of showing ID to vote must really struggle every day in all the other places ID is routinely required.

Yeah, I mean if it’s not hard for people with money and regular internet access and a high degree of probability of being in the IT field, then it must not be hard for ANYONE, therefore it’s totally reasonable.

Peter

December 22nd, 2011
9:45 am

BlahBlahBlah……. Ron Paul make a heck of a lot of sense in the area of Foreign policy, I will give you that !

Call it like it is

December 22nd, 2011
9:45 am

And this is a surprise to anyone? This country and its neighbors have been a cesspool for centuries. It was before America was even a thought, it is now and it will be in the future. There will never be peace. The only reason the rest of the world hasnt let them destroy themselves is because of the black gold. The day will come when the world doesnt need it, and that portion of the world will be forgotten.

stands for decibels

December 22nd, 2011
9:46 am

“What they needed to see was American boys and girls going house to house, from Basra to Baghdad, um and basically saying,’Which part of this sentence don’t you understand? You don’t think, you know, we care about our open society, you think this bubble fantasy, we’re just gonna to let it grow? Well, Suck. On. This.’”

–Little Tommy Friedman, upon being asked “Now that the war is over, and there’s *difficulty* with the peace, was it worth doing?” by Charlie Rose in 2003.

Grover Norquist was touched by Sandusky

December 22nd, 2011
9:47 am

bill orvis has a man crush on President Obama

Adam

December 22nd, 2011
9:47 am

BlahBlahBlah: But if he runs 3rd party, you won’t give him the time of day. You’ll march in lockstep back to President Obama, and nothing will change.

Ron Paul has a lot of core support. If he runs third party, he will get votes. But not as many as he would if he got the GOP nomination (speaking of lock step). Instead, if Ron Paul runs third party, he will peel off more conservatives than Obama-voters. However, he will definitely get a good portion of the young vote if he does run.

Mick

December 22nd, 2011
9:47 am

call@9:45

You nailed it – time to find some waves…

stands for decibels

December 22nd, 2011
9:47 am

Ron Paul is the only 2012 candidate that will seriously push to scale back our worldwide military operations, right?

Ron Paul never ran nothin’ but his mouth.

Bill Orvis White

December 22nd, 2011
9:47 am

@Mick
My mission is promoting rightful thinking that WILL save this once-free nation from Sharia Law.

@Peter
This was a free nation under the previous administration of the honorable President George Walker Bush-who fought for a culture of life, Christian religious freedom, low/no taxe$, very little regulation, a pro-business climate, freedom to say ‘Merry Christmas!’ a stronger defense, the choice of doctors and schools. This all changed when Hussein Obama was installed into office. In just a few months, Hussein Obama drove this once-free nation into massive debt unseen in this once-free nation’s history. I rightly label us once-free because we are living under tyranny! Do not fear because in January 2013, we WILL return to freedom and job creators like me will hire workers once again.
Merry Christmas/Amen,
Bill

stands for decibels

December 22nd, 2011
9:49 am

Also, I’m not willing to enslave 51% of the US population under Ron Paul (who is pro-allowing-states-to-recriminalize abortion) in the naive hope that he could somehow rein in a military industrial complex more powerful than any single Administration will be.

So sorry, phony libertarians–no sale on the old Texan.

dw

December 22nd, 2011
9:50 am

Politics aside, you are completely delusional MORON Bill Orvis. You do realize this right??

Welcome to the Occupation

December 22nd, 2011
9:51 am

Orve: “The U.S. and her allies needed to stay and instead, this community organizer in chief, cut and ran”

You do realize that we were being asked to leave, don’t you? And the community organizer, like the failed businessman who preceded him, was told in no uncertain terms that we would get no immunity for our troops there and thus were powerless to do anything about it, right? Or have you forgotten all this in a fog of FOX news sound bites? (Hint: the talking points of the GOP candidates are not actually meant to be taken seriously. Even the psychotic GOP isn’t insane enough not to know that they got nothing but lies and cheap insinuations in the foreign policy realm in a year that’s seen the killing of OBL and other highlights.)

stands for decibels

December 22nd, 2011
9:51 am

Anyway, got stuff to do. Later, kids.

Granny Godzilla

December 22nd, 2011
9:53 am

Blah Blah Blah

You are no more effective after you change your name.

Less effective actually.

"Hussein" Kamchak ~ Sharia Law is just a code word for "fear" -- the monster under your bed

December 22nd, 2011
9:53 am

This all changed when Hussein Obama was installed into office.

An open election is now spun as “installed.”

Someone needs to relearn the ninth commandment.

Finn McCool (Run Newt, run! You da man!)

December 22nd, 2011
9:53 am

Gee, I can’t seem to find any mention of this story on AJC.com….

Hey, I bet you won’t find that story in ANY newspaper in the country. LOL. Gullible conservatives are everywhere.

Paul

December 22nd, 2011
9:54 am

Just when we start taking Orvis White as a serious blogger, he posts his 9:47 and we realize we’ve been suckered again!

I think he’s having more fun than anyone here.

:-)

Finn McCool (Run Newt, run! You da man!)

December 22nd, 2011
9:55 am

Orvis needs to start taking his meds a few hours earlier each day. Off the rails.

Finn McCool (Run Newt, run! You da man!)

December 22nd, 2011
9:56 am

freedom to say ‘Merry Christmas’

Did you mean Merry Xmas? I thought so.

TaxPayer

December 22nd, 2011
9:56 am

If only Bush had arranged for more pallets of hundred dollar bills…

carlosgvv

December 22nd, 2011
9:56 am

Granny – 9:17

I intepret as it really is, not the delusional way you and others want it to be. My “nugatory” comments show things as they actually are and not the pollyana way you wish it could be.

Finn McCool (Run Newt, run! You da man!)

December 22nd, 2011
9:58 am

The notion that we could go in and remake another society — install new expectations, mindsets, cultural norms and democratic ideologies, as if we were installing a new engine in a car — has been the glaring flaw in our Iraq strategy from the very beginning.

So your saying the neocons were delusional? Who’da thunk it?

Bill Orvis White

December 22nd, 2011
9:58 am

@dw
You may call me anything since this is what you secular progressives end up doing when you’re losing the argument.

@Welcome to the Occupation
The honorable Speaker Boehner voices His concerns about an early withdrawal and guess what? Speaker Boehner was right. The job did not get finished because of this community organizer’s wrongful decision.

Merry Christmas/Amen,
Bill

Peter

December 22nd, 2011
9:58 am

Hello Bill Orvis White. wake up smell the roses. Bush imploded the nation economically.

Remember the almost “Depression “….. Spent like a drunken sailor, created a larger government, and then Killed for OIL.or as you put it the “Investment”.

Wasted Tax payers money on a war that couldn’t be won, never took out the REAL AMERICAN ENEMY……Bin Laden.

Funny You talk Christian, but love that Killing, and don’t mind killing off the ecology of the planet either…….. Bush’s lack of regulation is what has your home devalued, and he was in command while the Housing market / Wall Street scandal happened.

The Massive debt is because the WAR Debt was actually placed in the over all deficit…… Gee what a concept ?

Cause Bush was the ONLY President in the history of the US to cut taxes and start (2) Wars.

Deficits don’t matter to you do they ?

What was Bush’s plan to pay for the Wars Bill ?

What is that investment you talk about, and who is it befitting please ?

"Hussein" Kamchak ~ Sharia Law is just a code word for "fear" -- the monster under your bed

December 22nd, 2011
10:00 am

Nugatory.

Cool word Granny Godzilla, and very apropos.

Butch Cassidy

December 22nd, 2011
10:01 am

Jm – “Way to go O

Another O fail”

Are you referring to the withdrawl of troops under the timeline established by the Bush administration? On numerous occasions, I’ve credited Bush for the Iraq withdrawl, and nefver had a problem saying so. Now that skittles aren’t falling from the sky as predicted, you arbitrarily blame Obama. Nice.

"Hussein" Kamchak ~ Sharia Law is just a code word for "fear" -- the monster under your bed

December 22nd, 2011
10:02 am

The job did not get finished because of this community organizer’s wrongful decision.

There’s that ninth commandment issue thingie again.

dw

December 22nd, 2011
10:02 am

@bill

WTF is a secular progressive? Either way, i said “POLITICS ASIDE” you completely delusional moron. That means I dont give a rats a$$ if you like Obama or not, you are still an idiot.

Joseph

December 22nd, 2011
10:03 am

Not even a mention of this being George Bush’s fault Jay? I can’t beleive you’re even talking about this because if Iraq falls apart as it looks like it may the blame falls squarely on the shoulders of Barrack Obama….

FEAR (False Evidence Appearing Real)

December 22nd, 2011
10:03 am

“The fact is that The Surge was working.”
Yes the – surge “worked” ONLY because the Iraqi Sunnis — who had been at war with the U.S. — decided to work with the Americans. And according to military officers THERE on the GROUND, the Sunni leadership came to that conclusion before the surge. So Sunni leaders broke with their ally — al-Qaida — and helped the Americans target the terrorist group. The US’s cash incentive certainly helped as well.

The Iraqis thrived as an acient society (Mesopotamia) since at least 3500 B.C. They created the first writing system. I think they can figure out thier own destiny without US military aggression, force or direction. The Iraqi people wanted us to go home after the fall of Saddam – and we should have respected that demand from the people. Instead we stayed and we don’t even have “a true number” of the total Iraqi civilians that were killed as a result of that horrid, cluster of a war. Some say 100K; some say it’s closer to 1M. I wonder what the official number is from the Iraqi government.

Granny Godzilla

December 22nd, 2011
10:03 am

carlos

No you interpret from a cynical place….

That’s your life not mine.

Life is what you make it. Ours is good.

RG Readmore

December 22nd, 2011
10:03 am

jm
December 22nd, 2011
9:11 am
Way to go O
Another O fail

Now last week it was the conservatives saying that Obama deserved no credit for ending Iraq way, and that he was only sticking to Bush’s plan to draw down the troops. What is it this week cons?

0311/1811

December 22nd, 2011
10:03 am

1) “but there’s an equal if not better chance that the Iraqis will revert to their old ways of doing things.”

So why would we ever allow that mindset to immigrate here ?

2) What do you think would happen within the year if the 2nd Infantry Division was pulled from South Korea ?

Bill Orvis White

December 22nd, 2011
10:03 am

@Peter
The honorable President George W Bush was handed a recession from Bubba Clinton, who kept “his” pants down in the Oval Office while Saddam and Usama were plotting their jihads. President Bush did not ask to become a war president. Even Bubba Clinton said that one must run deficits to fund a rightful war. Pres. Bush rightly cut taxe$ to stimulate the economy. What did you do with your refund check, Peter? I’m sure you kept it – wow, so hypocritical. THAT WAS OUR MONEY and thankfully Senator Miller was on the right side of those rightful tax cut$. Pres. Bush had to become a war president! Hussein Obama exploded the deficit through ObamaCare and expanded entitlement programs.
Merry Christmas/Amen,
Bill

Butch Cassidy

December 22nd, 2011
10:03 am

Bill Orvis White – “The job did not get finished because of this community organizer’s wrongful decision.”

GW Bush was a community organizer?

Paul

December 22nd, 2011
10:04 am

(Peter – Orvis White is here only to refine his style before he tries duping his next victims by becoming a guest columnist for The Weekly Standard)

Granny Godzilla

December 22nd, 2011
10:04 am

H. Kamchak

sister m. helene ward bvm

“vocabulary ladies, vocabulary”

Welcome to the Occupation

December 22nd, 2011
10:06 am

“The honorable Speaker Boehner voices His concerns about an early withdrawal and guess what? Speaker Boehner was right. The job did not get finished because of this community organizer’s wrongful decision.”

Ok Orve, let’s turn this around. Let me ask you this — let’s put YOU in the driver’s seat, Orve. Prove to us that you’re better than this rubber-kneed, pinko community organizer. Tell us what you would do. Would you have stayed even though Iraqis were refusing to offer us immunity for our troops? What brilliant piece of diplomatic finagling would you have pulled out to get around this little difficulty?

And you do realize, by the way, that the commie community organizer wanted to stay just as much as the failed businessman who came before him — carefully keeping this fact from becoming obvious to his loyal base of core supporters of course.

Granny Godzilla

December 22nd, 2011
10:07 am

BOW….mixed nuts to be sure.

TaxPayer

December 22nd, 2011
10:07 am

Thanks to the hard work of Reagan and the neocons, at least we don’t have to worry about those war-mongering commies trying to exert their influence any… What was that. Really. Oops. Never mind.

0311/1811

December 22nd, 2011
10:08 am

Did anyone see those pizza’s Obama brought back to the White House.

Michelle is not going to be happy.

“When the cat’s away the mice will play”