GOP candidates tout war-happy, shoot-first approach
I didn’t watch all of last night’s GOP debate, but I did see an extended section on foreign policy. It was a horror show in which the candidates competed to show their disdain for and disinterest in the rest of the world, as well as their avid eagerness to use military power to solve problems. They seemed to think that those two traits ought to define America’s approach to the rest of the world, and the audience loved them for it.
Ron Paul was the only one who demonstrated a lick of sense or restraint.
Rick Perry, for example, repeated a refrain from the previous debate by insisting that President Obama had just two options after a U.S. spy plane drone was brought down over Iran and captured: Go into Iran and take it back, or or send missiles to destroy it on the ground, as if the Iranians have it sitting out on some airfield with red arrows helpfully pointing toward it.
The foolishness of that approach is self-evident, but I expect no better from the half-informed cowboy governor. I did expect better from Mitt Romney, but instead what we got was as bad or worse. Moderator Bret Baier noted that Romney had earlier called Obama’s response to the drone capture “extraordinarily weak and timid,” and asked Romney whether this weakness had invited war.
For those who can’t watch the video, here’s how it went:
“Absolutely. Does timidity and weakness invite aggression on the part of other people? Absolutely. A strong America is the best ally peace has ever known. This is a president that …. a spy drone downed over Iran and he says ‘pretty please?’” Foreign policy based on `pretty please?’ You have to be kidding.”
Romney, it turns out, is also in the “destroy it or go get it” camp, as if it were possible for the U.S. military to put together a crash rescue mission into the heart of Iran and fly the drone out of there. It’s a scenario that would be ridiculous in a Hollywood movie.
In addition, let’s also note that President Obama did not ask Osama bin Laden, “May I kill you, pretty please?” Nor has he taken that approach with the scores of other members of al Qaida and Taliban leadership targeted in Pakistan or Yemen. Romney’s charge that Obama has been weak or timid in his use of force when necessary is ridiculous on its face.
In this particular instance, our spy drone was violating Iranian airspace. Don’t get me wrong — I’m glad we’re keeping a close eye on things there. But its presence in violation of international law doesn’t exactly put us in a strong position to be outraged. Sending troops to retrieve it or trying to destroy it would escalate the matter into a major confrontation, with war a likely outcome. The price of oil would likely double or triple, the economy would go into a tailspin and the Middle East would erupt. Yet every candidate up there — again with the sane exception of Ron Paul — seemed to think that would be just grand.
Let’s review how a similar but much more important situation played out:
In April of 2001, a U.S. spy plane with 24 American military personnel aboard was forced down on Chinese soil after a collision with a Chinese jet. The Chinese refused to release either the plane or the personnel. The 24 Americans were held and interrogated for 10 days. We got the plane back three months later, in parts, after it had been disassembled and studied by the Chinese.
The plane’s release came only after we paid “restitution” to the Chinese for feeding and housing our personnel and for its expenses in dismantling our plane. We also sent a letter to the Chinese foreign minister, expressing American sorrow at the death of a Chinese pilot in the incident and for the fact that “the entering of China’s airspace and the landing did not have verbal clearance.” President Bush even sent a condolence letter to the widow of the dead Chinese pilot.
By the standards expressed on that Iowa stage last night, President Bush’s handling of that affair went well beyond “pretty please” or “extraordinarily weak or timid.” It was downright craven, and heaven knows how the macho chest-beaters on the right would respond if the same thing occurred under Obama. Yet a decade later, the Hainan Island incident remains just that, an incident that is largely forgotten.
Yes, the Republican candidates were playing to an audience last night. They were pandering to its worst instincts. But it is a sad state of affairs when would-be leaders can’t or won’t engage voters in at least a somewhat adult conversation about such matters. I suspect audiences in other countries were even more appalled by the nonsense they heard last night.
– Jay Bookman
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358 comments Add your comment
Redneck Convert (R---and proud of it
December 16th, 2011
11:15 am
Well, I hope these canadates get the war with Iran over with before little ______ Zell George is old enough to serve. I’ll be saving my Support Our Troops bumper stickers and use them then, now that the war in Iraq is over with. You know how Patriotic us rednecks are. Especially if it’s somebody else’s kid doing the fighting and dying.
Have a good Friday everybody. I’m out here hauling and lugging, trying to get you ready to swap weird music tonight.
Paul
December 16th, 2011
11:16 am
getalife
“I doubt willard has been briefed on the mission so they are flying blind and have no clue.”
As I said, speculation runs rampant.
I see it breaking down like this, assuming the drone was real.
1. It goes down in a remote area and we think Iranians have not become aware. An airstrike to destroy is a viable option.
2. It goes down and the area is not remote, and/or we think the Iranians are aware. Viability of an airstrike plummets.
3. Iranians recover drone. Airstrike/retrieval viability is nil.
AmVet - Just say no to the War Pigs.
December 16th, 2011
11:16 am
And poor heathen, he too must have gone to school in Athens.
As he also has grave and obvious difficulties with standard written English.
Either that or he can break his longstanding tradition of not being able to back up his absurd claims…
Jm
December 16th, 2011
11:16 am
What did the droner say to the birther?
“I bet Iran has obama’s birth certificate”
Jm
December 16th, 2011
11:19 am
Iranians and the Chinese are in cahoots folks
Btw, Persians are hot. Generally speaking
Tim H
December 16th, 2011
11:19 am
Jay is right. Obama’s policy of appeasement is working just fine. Why are the Republicans such hawks?
Peadawg
December 16th, 2011
11:20 am
“of not being able to back up his absurd claims…”
Reminds me of getalife and his “it’s fake” and “it’s destroyed” claims. Still can’t provide a link….
getalife
December 16th, 2011
11:21 am
“The Iranians have a pile of rubble and are trying to figure what they have and what to do with it,” the senior U.S. official said. The drone crashed solely because its guidance system failed, the official said.
http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2011/12/06/downed-drone-was-on-cia-mission/
I can back up everything I say and have never lied on this blog.
Apologize Pea.
Now.
Peadawg
December 16th, 2011
11:21 am
Off to lunch…be back sometime this afternoon.
I’ll check back for that link, getalife.
getalife
December 16th, 2011
11:22 am
Cut and run coward.
Man up and apologize.
godless heathen
December 16th, 2011
11:22 am
AmVet,
I can’t prove a negative. I’m saying that the whole world seems to believe that the Iranians have in their possession a downed US Drone. The whole world except for getalife and AmVet, that is.
I think it is up to the droners to back up their claim.
Peadawg
December 16th, 2011
11:24 am
Ah, so “which apparently sustained significant damage” means “destroyed” to getalife.
Jm
December 16th, 2011
11:24 am
Apparently Obama was given three options to destroy the drone
He rejected all of them
Obama just gave our spy tech to china
Obama is the dumbest 1%er out there
Normal
December 16th, 2011
11:24 am
aybe this will help some…
http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2011/12/15/crashed-drone-was-looking-at-iran-nuclear-sites/?hpt=hp_bn4
..and I remember back when I used to fly romote controlled planes, they could be hijacked by using a transmitter on the same frequency away from the flight site but closer to the aircraft. They would quickly land it, stuff it in a car and drive off. One would think that the designers would have that possibility covered, but you never know…blttom line, it could be possible they took it.
Peadawg
December 16th, 2011
11:25 am
“Man up and apologize.” – For what? Iran has it. Your link acknowledged that Iran has it. Again…”significant damage” does not equal “destroyed”. Tool.
Peadawg
December 16th, 2011
11:26 am
getalife provided a link that says Iran has the drone.
Well it definitely ain’t fake like getalife claimed yesterday. Or destroyed.
What a tool.
getalife
December 16th, 2011
11:26 am
Apologize Pea.
Bow down to me.
Peadawg
December 16th, 2011
11:27 am
Off to lunch now for real.
Later, droner. Go hang out with a birther in the land of unicorns. Have fun.
Guy Incognito
December 16th, 2011
11:27 am
Mick
December 16th, 2011
11:15 am
secretary
How’s about, I ran from iran?
“Iran so far away.” -Flock o Seagulls
Mick
December 16th, 2011
11:27 am
jm
**Apparently Obama**
Yeah, let’s just run with that…loser talk.
Kamchak
December 16th, 2011
11:27 am
Tick…tick…tick….
Mary Elizabeth
December 16th, 2011
11:28 am
Welcome to the Occupation @ 10:17 and 10:35
(1) “What is authentically strong about caving yet again to Republicans on the modest tax raises on the high-earners in this latest farcical round of haggling in Washington?
By the way, why do you bend over backwards to defend a man who said “The free market is the greatest force for economic progress in human history“, as Obama did last week in Kansas.”
(2)”How many people can draw adoring crowds in Berlin or Cairo without speaking a word in those countries’ languages, not to mention not really having anything really profound to offer the people of those countries other than vague new age bromides.”
———————————————–
About # 1 above.
Welcom, I believe you are a purist. I am more of a left leaning pragmatist. I would have preferred single-payer when that game was being played out, but I realized what Obama was up against even to get Obamacare as it stands into law. Likewise, with what is going on this week in D.C., I am aware of what he can do – as opposed to what I would like for him to accomplish. The art of the “possible” in other words.
I, like Obama, believe that the free market is “the greatest force for economic progress in human history.” That is economic progress. That is not, however, progress in human rights or human achievements of the mind and spirit, although most impoverished persons, as impoverished nations, will want to survive physcially, and that means economically, before reaching higher evolution of a spiritual or humanitarian nature. I believe that we should have a modified capitalism in this nation – and perhaps even in much of the world, which balances the capitalistic economic engine with human rights such as spelled out in FDR’s Second Bill of Rights.
About #2 above, you paint Obama in caricature. I believe he connects with many in the world who share his evolved egalitarian consciousness. One has to be sensitive to what that means, and have the sensibility to understand it in others. It is quite the opposite of a “rock star’s” impact. Not that Obama compares with Mother Theresa, but she did not have to speak many words to understand her spirit. Obama’s words soar into the hearts of those who do understand because they come from deep within his spirit. My French cousin-in-law connected with Obama’s Cairo speech and understood him and praised him for he connected with his vision.
Contrary to what some may perceive, I support Obama because I believe as he does on many levels. It is as simple as that.
godless heathen
December 16th, 2011
11:29 am
Well enough of this trifling. I’m off to look for the parts on the Internets where I can build my own drone that can be flown autonomously over the ME from the comfort of my home.
AmVet, try to remain calm. I know you don’t like the fish, but they serve the fish every Friday. Just eat the mashed potatoes.
getalife
December 16th, 2011
11:29 am
I owned Pea.
What about you godless?
Want some more of this?
Jm
December 16th, 2011
11:30 am
Obama elected to ask for it back
Fat chance
What a damn moron Obama is
Maybe palin wouldve been better….
getalife
December 16th, 2011
11:30 am
Didn’t think so.
Cut and run godless.
I owned you too.
DawgDad
December 16th, 2011
11:32 am
Mary Elizabeth:
I watch FoxNews because my daily newspaper innundates me with leftist propaganda, from the AP news slant to the Editorial page (wherein “balanced views” has been redefined as left and not-quite-so-left), and because I turned off the MSM newscasts years ago (biased to a fault). Shep Smith does annoy me with his slightly left bias in presentation, and I don’t care for the in-your-face Hannity show-style. Otherwise, there’s plenty to like about a news channel that respects core conservative values and preferences, in lieu of openly disparaging or attacking them.
Jm
December 16th, 2011
11:33 am
Mick
See USA today
Mary Elizabeth
December 16th, 2011
11:34 am
Mick@11:01
GM
December 16th, 2011
11:34 am
Good old Mitt at least he was honest about all the companies that failed under his leadership, and all the people he layed off: \
This is who the people on the right are voting for, if elected he is going to put these same idiots who voted for him back in the unemployment line and say I told you laying off people is what business do, people around the world think rep Americans all the most dumbest idiots ever to elect anyone.
getalife
December 16th, 2011
11:35 am
Now, back to the topic.
The Falcons game was a blow out so I watched fox attack the newt.
If you fact check that debate you would see it was mostly lies.
Fact check on me will get you owned.
Jm
December 16th, 2011
11:38 am
Getalife keep droning
AmVet - Just say no to the War Pigs.
December 16th, 2011
11:39 am
heathen, when you want to be, which is fairly often, you are hopeless.
One last time, I’ve made ZERO claims that the Iranians do or don’t have a US drone. Otherwise you would produce such a claim.
Hello?
This isn’t rocket science. (LOL at bad jokes.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bMjUU972So
getalife
December 16th, 2011
11:41 am
jm,
Stop droning on about the drone.
Lets fact check the debate instead.
willard is a boring debater and our President will win all debates easily.
Paul
December 16th, 2011
11:42 am
getalife 11:21
that was the most complete account I’ve seen. Thanks.
Peter
December 16th, 2011
11:43 am
Do the Cons here have an idea how we pay for the Bush Wars ? NO..BUT let’s go and have more confrontations with the open check book.
Peter
December 16th, 2011
11:43 am
God Bless George W. Bush and hopefully the United States of America will FINALLY get a President who actually understands the economy.
Wow what did Newt do in Washington ?
Mary Elizabeth
December 16th, 2011
11:44 am
Hmmmmmmmmmm@11:08
“Mary,
I’m not here to refute any of your data… Your kinda like my daughter, very young and idealistic… Naive is an understatement, but I don’t mean that as an insult… You like many others are lost in a sea of ideology.. It would be great if life were this simple… Here is hoping everyone has a Merry Christmas..”
—————————————–
Well, let’s see, just to clear up the stereotypes. I just turned 69 years old. I have raised a child who is married and has a great career, and am now a widow of a good marriage of almost 28 years. I worked for 43 years straight up, and 35 of those years in education, some of it in educational leadership. I have lived in South Georgia, New York City, and Atlanta. I don’t identify with any of those places. I identify with my mind and spirit, which is unique, as is that of each person who blogs here. I think I have something to contribute, especially in the heart of the South, from my more liberal perspective. That is why I blog. In many places in the world, my views are considered mainstream.
Merry Christmas to you, also, Hmmmmmmm, and to everyone else who posts on or who reads this blog.
getalife
December 16th, 2011
11:44 am
Paul,
Perhaps you can help me out on newt;s attack on the courts.
Is it another case of being a sore loser after losing the case or does he have a point in eliminating courts he does not agree with?
I found it very bizarre.
Paul
December 16th, 2011
11:45 am
Peadawg
“, so “which apparently sustained significant damage” means “destroyed” to getalife.”
Ever talked to an insurance agent after a bad car crash?
Every community has their own language.
And it didn’t crash.
It experienced a rapid, uncontrolled impact with the terrain.
St Simons - we're on Island time
December 16th, 2011
11:45 am
I want to see a graph – of the shrill-ness of the troll-screeching over
time as it sucks more & more every day to be a Republican
& the world progresses fwd from the brink of the con clusterf*ery.
Misty Fyed
December 16th, 2011
11:47 am
We pay for wars by asking the Chinese to fund them. We assure them that out great grandkids won’t mind paying them back.
You know…The same way we pay for everything else.
Paul
December 16th, 2011
11:50 am
getalife
He said he didn’t like the 9th Circuit decision on “In God We Trust” (overturned by SCOTUS) and that began his campaign. But his criteria seems to be ‘judges who render unAmerican, unConstitutional decisions.”
Megan Kelly just didn’t let up. Newt does a pretty good job of earning the loony-tunes label.
Here’s the exchange:
http://www.2012presidentialelectionnews.com/
Click on the ‘advance to next segment’ button – the arrow with the vertical line, just to the right of the play button, four times and it’ll take you to Kelly’s questioning.
Misty Fyed
December 16th, 2011
11:51 am
Anyone who deals frequently with Judges would probably agree with Newt. No politician can compete with the ego of a Federal Judge. They need accounatility and a method of removal when they stop interpreting law and start ruling based on what they think the law should be.
Jay
December 16th, 2011
11:51 am
sheets, btw
godless heathen
December 16th, 2011
11:52 am
Normal,
“.and I remember back when I used to fly romote controlled planes, they could be hijacked by using a transmitter on the same frequency away from the flight site but closer to the aircraft. ”
We use 2.4 gHtz spread spectrum now. No more worries about channels and being “shot down” by radio intereference.
George Bush's IQ(-112)
December 16th, 2011
11:55 am
Jm – I think you have a crush on President Obama. Do you have a mancrush on President Obama?
Joseph
December 16th, 2011
12:00 pm
Lucky for the American people Jay people don’t take you or your ilk seriously when talking about national security. Your opinion really doesn’t matter… Begging Iran to give back the drone is certainly not the approach of a real leader. Hopefully next November we’ll get someone with at least half a spine…..
Mary Elizabeth
December 16th, 2011
12:08 pm
DawdDad@11:32
Not everything on FoxNEWS is “bad” and not everything on MSNBC is “good.” CNN is the more balanced network of the three. Please be aware that much of today’s conservative ideological agenda works against the best interests of the working/middle class but that agenda does enhance the wealth and power of the top few. Please watch “The Ed Show” on MSNBC, sometimes, and Ed Schultz will present charts and graphics to make this case for you to see for yourself.
P. S. I believe that everyone should be treated with respect, regardless of whether they share your views or not. Those on the Right or Left who do not practice respect of others end up hurting their own cause.
Welcome to the Occupation
December 16th, 2011
12:11 pm
Mary Elizabeth: I’ll respond to your points in turn, but first a quick reply to the following statement, which I think is the nub of the whole matter.
“Welcom, I believe you are a purist. I am more of a left leaning pragmatist. I would have preferred single-payer when that game was being played out, but I realized what Obama was up against even to get Obamacare as it stands into law.”
What, it seems to me, you’re failing to take into account is the deliberate deception practiced by Barack Obama, who had not the slightest intention of defending a public option in the health care debate. Instead, he merely led liberals down the primrose path, letting them think he wanted to do it because he needed their votes to get elected. But of course once elected he sided with those conservative Dems and blue dogs who opposed the PO at every step, finally quietly dropping the thing entirely from consideration without a peep of explanation.
So what does this mean?
What it means is that Obama uses the FICTION that he’s “up against it”, that he “has no choice”, that he faces an insanely unreasonable opposition and obstruction, etc. and that therefore liberals should be good, well-behaved little children and just be patient. The master can’t be expected to do any better – look at what he’s up against.
Well, I reject that and see Obama as largely being part of the problem we face.
Erwin's cat
December 16th, 2011
12:12 pm
Jay – “sheets, btw”:
——————————-
completely agree…
SherryB
December 16th, 2011
12:25 pm
“Ron Paul was the only one who demonstrated a lick of sense or restraint.” Absolutely. And Bachmann flat out lied and spewed propaganda instead of facts. I’d love to see you do a column on that . What we are witnessing is a “reality show” in the sense it is more geared to who can sound/look/spout-jingoism-to-the-max (”Golly gee, I’m a ‘goin’ to be like TEBOW for this country,” said Perry) …. the best to appeal to — frankly — what appears to be a dumbed down, non-reading, non-questiong population. Ron Paul, by the way, was mentioned once, last paragraph on the CNN news site re:the debate. Moreover, in general, he is described by “journalists” most often in terms of criticism of his hair, his fast delivery, his grandpa looks, silly cliched descriptions of the outer man — instead of digging to actually report and cover what he is saying and if it is or is not based on fact.
Dekalb comments
December 16th, 2011
12:42 pm
It is easy to stand on a stage and pontificate about tough you would be compared with someone else. It is something entirely different when you are actually responsible for making those tough decisions.
Preventing Iran from developing nuclear weapons may not be possible despite the efforts of the world community. But if we are going to be successful it will not be by doing this alone. Russia is a key player in dealing with this issue and had we inserted troops into Iran to retrieve our spy drone that, under international law to which the U.S. is a signatory, was violating Iranian airspace, we would have lost any prospective support from Russia.
Destroying the drone by bombing would have been the only real option and, without any of us knowing the real facts, we don’t know how feasible that would be. Iran has sophisticated radar and had they identified where the drone went down they could have easily secured it out of bombing range within a few hours.
Again, easy to bluster on a stage but the realities are much more complex than these candidates are willing to publicly acknowledge. Maybe at least some of them are so stupid they don’t understand that. I suspect, however, they are just playing to the base.
Newtpewt
December 16th, 2011
12:46 pm
Here’s what the Neo-Cons have in store for us if the GOP is back in the WH: Key Questions asked by MASH character Col. Sherman Potter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NpIgQTeAD9c
Mary Elizabeth
December 16th, 2011
1:19 pm
Welcome to the Occupation@12:11
“What, it seems to me, you’re failing to take into account is the deliberate deception practiced by Barack Obama, who had not the slightest intention of defending a public option in the health care debate.”
———————————————————–
Welcome, you say that Obama practices a “deliberate deception” and you cast him as a somewhat malevolent and devious character. I don’t see that. I see that he well knew well in advance that the public option would in no way pass, based on the combination of the fears of the people today and the intransigent Republican Congress. Moreover, he knew that he could only afford to lose so much political “capital” on that “lost cause.” On the other hand, he did not speak against a public option because I believe he wants the nation to eventually evolve to recognizing the value of a public option delivery system, or at least a national private-public partnership of healthcare delivery, which contains a strong public option component. (Already, I am sure you have read, 2.5 million young people between the ages of 21 – 26 now have medical insurance who had not had it before, thanks to Obamacare.) His efforts and success regarding the national healthcare insurance plan is one example of how Obama keeps long-ranged goals on the horizon to be achieved through evolution of thought – and subsequent action – by gradients, instead of simply being achieved all at once, which is less likely to become immediate reality.
Likewise, Obama has tried to lead toward greater rights for gays and has accomplished much for gay rights even though some gays have been critical of his “not saying more or trying harder.” I see Obama as a left leaning, albeit sometimes centrist, pragmatist. I do not see him as a devious manipulator.
Common Sense
December 16th, 2011
1:32 pm
The military has a cool little device, that when placed on planes, trains or automobiles which carry secret information, can be detonated and literally melts the computer components carrying any information. What the Iranians have, is a shell of a drone which they could break down the parts to see how it flies if they want, but this is Iran. Don’t you think they already know this stuff? This is politics from Iran, pure and simple. Do you really want to start a war because they have a drone with no usful information? Really?
Tom Middleton
December 16th, 2011
6:34 pm
The Republicans are all about the 1%, Jay, and by now this should be as plain as the nose on Mitt Romney’s face.
Their economic policies have shown us this beyond doubt, but so have their security ones when we stop and think about them just a little.
The reason they’re so trigger happy is because they see themselves as having one job only (I mean, besides trying to destroy this centrist president), and that’s to grow and protect the enormous wealth of their political base.
But where does that leave the rest of us, besides nowhere good – the end result of their so-called “American Exceptionalism” that always favors their few.
We’re the ones who have to fight their unnecessary wars, Jay, not them, and it’s us, not them, who always pay the terrible price for their top-heavy economies when they collapse.
And then they have the audacity to accuse us of waging class warfare when we complain, like they want us to believe that it’s us, not them, causing all the problems. Amazing, isn’t it?
But keep these people in power and things will get better, as they would have us believe? For them, maybe, but not for us, and the sooner we realize that they don’t work for us and never will, the better off we will be ad infinitum – all of us this time, not just their chosen few!
Truth-O-Meter
December 17th, 2011
4:11 pm
Does JM have a job?! He had better not be one of those guys/gals using the boss’ time to post on this page when he/should be working. Oh, maybe he is a gvment employee. You know, the people for whom he has such disdain. Oh no, don’t tell me he is the boss!!!