Fannie, Freddie execs next targets for SEC
Good news of aggressive enforcement action by the SEC, as reported by Associated Press:
WASHINGTON (AP) – The Securities and Exchange Commission has brought civil fraud charges against six former top executives at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, saying they misled the government and taxpayers about risky subprime mortgages the mortgage giants held during the housing bust.
Those charged include the agencies’ two former CEOs, Fannie’s Daniel Mudd and Freddie’s Richard Syron. They are the highest-profile individuals to be charged in connection with the 2008 financial crisis….
According to the lawsuit, Fannie told investors in 2007 that it had roughly $4.8 billion worth of subprime loans on its books. The SEC says that Fannie actually had about $43 billion worth of products targeted to borrowers with weak credit.
Freddie said about 11% of its single-family loans were subprime in 2007. The SEC says it was closer to about 18%.
“Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac executives told the world that their subprime exposure was substantially smaller than it really was,” said Robert Khuzami, SEC’s enforcement director. “These material misstatements occurred during a time of acute investor interest in financial institutions’ exposure to subprime loans, and misled the market about the amount of risk.”
Investors had every reason to believe that Fannie and Freddie executives were telling them the truth about the financial health of the two companies, which eventually were forced into bankruptcy with investors getting wiped out. However, the SEC court filings, available here, suggest that the agency has pretty strong evidence that they did not tell the truth, and in fact were actively deceptive in order to keep the stock prices, and their own compensation, artificially high.
The goal of the civil fraud charges is to force the six executives to surrender bonuses and stock options they received in that time frame and to pay penalties on top of those returned profits. Syron’s compensation, for example, “grew from approximately $14.7 million in 2006 to $18.3 million in 2007,” according to the SEC filing.
Despite the glee it inspires among conservatives, the case offers no evidence that Fannie and Freddie played a major role in causing the subsequent financial meltdown. To the contrary, the story told in the SEC filings confirms the narrative laid out in previous independent investigations by the Federal Reserve and the Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission: The two “government-sponsored enterprises,” or GSEs, moved into the subprime market late in the game, and did so because they were losing market share to more aggressive private subprime mortgage companies. They allowed themselves to get sucked into the bubble, and if the SEC is correct they lied about it, but they did not cause the bubble in the first place.
For example, in its discussion of Freddie Mac’s role, the SEC writes:
“By 2005, the Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae combined share of the market for mortgage securitizations had fallen to approximately 42 percent from a high of nearly 60 percent in 2000. Within that shrinking GSE share of the market, Freddie Mac also had been steadily losing market share to Fannie Mae. Freddie Mac responded to this loss of market share by broadening its credit risk parameters to purchase and guarantee increasingly risky mortgages in its Single Family guarantee portfolio between approximately 2004 and 2007.”
In a similar case settled earlier, the SEC filed civil fraud charges against Angelo Mozilo, the former CEO and founder of Countrywide Financial. Mozilo paid $22.5 million to settle the case and forfeited another $45 million he was to otherwise receive.
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116 comments Add your comment
Common Sense isn't very Common
December 16th, 2011
2:07 pm
bout time
(ir)Rational
December 16th, 2011
2:12 pm
I think that is one sentiment we all can agree on. Now, what do you think the odds are we can get them to go after the Congressmen the were just as involved?
Kamchak
December 16th, 2011
2:16 pm
To the contrary, the story told in the SEC filings confirms the narrative laid out in previous independent investigations by the Federal Reserve and the Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission: The two “government-sponsored enterprises,” or GSEs, moved into the subprime market late in the game, and did so because they were losing market share to more aggressive private subprime mortgage companies.
A point that will largely ignored amid the posts about Bwarney Fwanks, Carter, Clinton and the CRA.
Thomas
December 16th, 2011
2:17 pm
Oh Jay- you missed the juiciest- most enronesque parts-
too bad they can’t back track to Franklin Raines as well.
ByteMe
December 16th, 2011
2:17 pm
Mozilo paid $22.5 million to settle the case and forfeited another $45 million he was to otherwise receive.
And Mozillo’s compensation during the period he committed fraud was…?
Freddie Mac responded to this loss of market share by broadening its credit risk parameters
And hiring an historian to not provide any historical information to them for hundreds of thousands of dollars per year. Woo-hoo!
ByteMe
December 16th, 2011
2:18 pm
My problem is that the SEC continues to be intentionally underfunded by Congress so that they are forced to settle for less than otherwise makes any logical sense.
Bruno
December 16th, 2011
2:18 pm
In case any of you think we need to start a trade/tariff war with China:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/china-gets-revenge-obama-tariff-u-autos-213747820.html
(ir)Rational
December 16th, 2011
2:19 pm
I’m going to step away from the narrative that Barney Franks or Clinton had anything to do with it, and blame it all on Kamchak. If memory serves he is a Chelsea fan, therefore he is inherently evil.
ByteMe
December 16th, 2011
2:22 pm
In case any of you think we need to start a trade/tariff war with China
Of course we need to start one, but not a tit-for-tat one where we target certain industries… we need to do it across the board, because they manipulate their currency as their way of attacking our manufacturing base.
Kamchak
December 16th, 2011
2:23 pm
If memory serves he is a Chelsea fan, therefore he is inherently evil.
Say what you will about The Blue Lions, but we’re the only ones that beat Man City in the EPL this year.
Thbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbtttt.
AmVet - Just say no to Republican fascists.
December 16th, 2011
2:25 pm
You know that the amount of thievery is unprecedented when the tiny number of fines levied are in the tens of millions of dollars and even that is not enough to make these banksters bat an eye.
To them, it is just another cost of doing business.
The worst government that dirty money can buy…
Jm
December 16th, 2011
2:25 pm
Wait. I thought Fannie and Freddie, overseen by Barney, were blameless.
That last paragraph sure leads one to a different conclusion. Hmmm
Frank and Dodd
Two very corrupt SOBs
They should be in jail
(ir)Rational
December 16th, 2011
2:25 pm
We have our chance coming up this weekend. I just hope it isn’t as ugly as when we played Man U. That was horrible.
Jm
December 16th, 2011
2:26 pm
Next to last paragraph….
Keep Up the Good Fight!
December 16th, 2011
2:29 pm
And Jm skips the 4th to last paragraph……. anyone surprised?
Jm
December 16th, 2011
2:30 pm
Byteme
Sec just got a huge budget increase
Read up
Paul
December 16th, 2011
2:31 pm
“According to the lawsuit, Fannie told investors in 2007 that it had roughly $4.8 billion worth of subprime loans on its books. The SEC says that Fannie actually had about $43 billion worth of products targeted to borrowers with weak credit.”
Geesh… some people get so excited about where one little decimal point goes….
Civil, not criminal? Hmmmm.
And it also appears these two guys received substantial pay increase while company performance was declining.
If Republicans think running the government is like running a business, we’re in a world of hurt.
Note from last night’s debate: when pressed about Fannie/Freddie, Newt said he recommended MORE regulations.
Get that? A leading Republican contender called for MORE regulations. Yet the Right is quiet. Maybe they’re just not too good at listening? Or too good at incorporating facts that conflict with their narrative?
TaxPayer
December 16th, 2011
2:31 pm
Now how are these poor CEOs supposed to sit around creating jobs for hard-working people like the Newt if we continue to harass them like this instead of offering them praise via larger tax cuts and pay raises, I asks ya.
AmVet - A Happy KwanzChristmakkuh to al!
December 16th, 2011
2:31 pm
LOL at me. I was wondering why (ir)Rational was hating on the Clinton kid.
(ir)Rational
December 16th, 2011
2:34 pm
AmVet – I hold no hate for the Clintons. Really I don’t. Not a huge fan of them by any means, but I hold no hate for them. Chelsea Clinton is blameless in my book, it isn’t her fault her parents are who they are. Speaking of which, she isn’t bad looking considering.
ByteMe
December 16th, 2011
2:35 pm
The Republican proposal released late yesterday calls for raising SEC spending by $136 million over 2011 levels, a change from earlier proposals that would have held the agency’s budget constant despite new responsibilities under the Dodd-Frank financial-regulation law.
Gee, Jm, that doesn’t sound like much of a “huge budget increase”… it went from $1.3 billion to 1.4 billion while increasing their scope. And yet we want perp-walks of these frauds and they’re the gang who would give them to us. Seems that Congress (cough cough) would want to fund them comparable to the deep pockets they’re charged with regulating. Never bring a knife to a gun fight.
(ir)Rational
December 16th, 2011
2:36 pm
Now the Blue Lions of Chelsea, yeah, I have much hate (well, dislike could be a better word) for them. Matched only by the hate I have for Manchester (City and United) and the University(sic) of Georgia.
Kamchak
December 16th, 2011
2:37 pm
(ir)Rational
Of the top 4-5 clubs in the EPL, the Gunners is the one team I hold no animosity towards, so good luck on the road at Etihad Stadium this weekend and take all three points as we will also be on the road at Wigan.
Back Seater
December 16th, 2011
2:37 pm
Wonder how much this had to do with B Fwanks sudden decision to retire?
Stevie Ray
December 16th, 2011
2:38 pm
JAY,
I love this…bi-partisan thievery at it’s finest. I believe there is more the the story and that the very notion of quasi-public/quasi-private entities taking policy from corruptresentatives is a collosal idiotic conception. The GSE’s are very unique in this arrangement. Also, unique is the allowable political meddling as a result. What about the board members culpability and the battle cries from the likes of Francie Waters relative to the massive increase in loans to minorities, NEWT’s looting, Rahm Emmanuels looting, Bill Daly’s looting, Gorelich, Raines, Zoellich et al? Saying these guys and gals knew nothing of the toxicity of crap they underwrote is like saying Goldmann Sachs chairman and board are not responsible for dalliances of equal lunacy.
To minimize this as the crookery of a few and make every attempt to protect Democratic and GOP cronyism and it’s role in the great looting is naive and superficial.
Grover Norquist was touched by Sandusky
December 16th, 2011
2:38 pm
I’m all about profits and growing your business. But if you intentionally defraud investors, global investors, taxpayers, and employees. You should go to State Prison, not the federal prision, and do hardtime. A lot of these CEO’s and Hedge Fund managers are crooks. It’s not an attack on the rich, it the accountibility of their actions. Isn’t that what some NeoCons always quote, be accountible for your actions. First of all, being accountible is not a Gop value, it’s a human value.
Mom’s always told me that you can rob more people with a briefcase than with a gun………….
AmVet - A Happy KwanzChristmakkuh to al!
December 16th, 2011
2:39 pm
(ir)Rational, she may turn out like her mom (And a lot of other ladies), who kind of grew into her attractiveness…
As for Bill, I was always impressed by that photo of him as a very young man shaking JFK’s hand and truly being an example of a poor kid going from rags to riches.
As a prez?
He had some really good points and some really bad ones.
Paul to your point, until criminal laws are strengthened, the corproate crime wave, aided and abetted by the lackeys in Washington, is gonna continue to roll merrily along…
(ir)Rational
December 16th, 2011
2:40 pm
Kam – Yeah, not sure I understand why, but it seems that very few people have an intense dislike for the Gunners. At least on this side of the pond. Good luck to y’all as well.
Paul
December 16th, 2011
2:41 pm
“Wonder how much this had to do with B Fwanks sudden decision to retire?”
Some bloggers never disappoint -
Guy Incognito
December 16th, 2011
2:42 pm
REP. BARNEY FRANK, D-MASS.: “I think this is a case where Fannie and Freddie are fundamentally sound, that they are not in danger of going under.”
Genius
Brosephus
December 16th, 2011
2:44 pm
My problem is that the SEC continues to be intentionally underfunded by Congress so that they are forced to settle for less than otherwise makes any logical sense.
That’s all to set up the narrative that government is ineffective and needs to be cut. You must not have read the fine print in the memo. The best way to make government inefficient and ineffective is to underfund it and heap huge tasks onto it at the same time. If these politicians really wanted things to run effectively and without corruption, they could do so at the swipe of a pen. They’ll never do that because the very people who fund their thirst for power and prestige pay them to ensure they look the other way at corruption.
The ultimate joke is on the American public when they actually believe they are voting for someone who shares their beliefs and values.
(ir)Rational
December 16th, 2011
2:45 pm
AmVet – I think she already grew into her looks personally. But that could just be me. I was much too young to really know what was going on during his presidency, but I do remember the scandals (what 10-11 year old boy wouldn’t think that was interesting?). To be honest though, that is all I remember. I didn’t even know til today that Hilary ran for the Dem. nomination in 2000.
Stevie Ray
December 16th, 2011
2:47 pm
GUY,
Those “frank” comments will be spun as he was a victim of fraud etcetera and was erroneously underinformed. Thats the same thing Rahm Emmanuel, Raines, and other cronies will claim…it’s basically an admission that same folks are not accountable in their positions as overseers to a standard of care that is beyond getting paid…the politics surrounding the lack of proper accounting audits will blow the minds of many and is definitely bi-partisan but the bulk of those getting wet are democrats….
Jm
December 16th, 2011
2:48 pm
Democrats increasing fines for automakers for recalls
More big government from democrats
Yep. Obama and democrats are harmless
AmVet - A Happy KwanzChristmakkuh to al!
December 16th, 2011
2:49 pm
(ir)Rational, wow you are a youngster by the standards here!
But no worries, most of us are not ageists!
And to the extent that you are interested in and want to be involved in our system of governance, good on you.
I completely advocate for an empowered citizenry. Regardless of political affiliation or ideology.
Freedom is participation in power. ~Cicero
Grover Norquist was touched by Sandusky
December 16th, 2011
2:51 pm
So, my fellow short neocons – you want to blame barney franks for the housing market, I agree, he does share some blame, but let’s look at the entire picture.
An agreement between the Clinton administration and congressional Republicans, reached during all-night negotiations which concluded in the early hours of October 22, sets the stage for passage of the most sweeping banking deregulation bill in American history, lifting virtually all restraints on the operation of the giant monopolies which dominate the financial system.
The proposed Financial Services Modernization Act of 1999 would do away with restrictions on the integration of banking, insurance and stock trading imposed by the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933, one of the central pillars of Roosevelt’s New Deal. Under the old law, banks, brokerages and insurance companies were effectively barred from entering each others’ industries, and investment banking and commercial banking were separated
The chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, Texas Republican Phil Gramm, himself collected more than $1.5 million in cash from the three industries during the last five years: $496,610 from the insurance industry, $760,404 from the securities industry and $407,956 from banks.
Gramm and other extreme-right Republicans saw the opportunity to damage their political opponents among minority businessmen and community groups, who generally support the Democratic Party. Gramm succeeded in inserting two provisions to weaken the CRA, one reducing the frequency of examinations for CRA compliance to once every five years for smaller banks, the other compelling public disclosure of loans made under the program
Jm
December 16th, 2011
2:53 pm
You know, a recall fixes the cars at the cost of the automaker
No need to lob on a quarter billion fine per recall which is what democrats want to do
Do they want a car industry or not? (apparently not)
Paul
December 16th, 2011
2:54 pm
Guy Incognito
“REP. BARNEY FRANK, D-MASS.: “I think this is a case where Fannie and Freddie are fundamentally sound, that they are not in danger of going under.”
Genius.”
So tell us, Guy, if you had read the filing “Fannie told investors in 2007 that it had roughly $4.8 billion worth of subprime loans on its books. The SEC says that Fannie actually had about $43 billion worth of products targeted to borrowers with weak credit.
Freddie said about 11% of its single-family loans were subprime in 2007. The SEC says it was closer to about 18%.
“Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac executives told the world that their subprime exposure was substantially smaller than it really was,” said Robert Khuzami, SEC’s enforcement director. ”
you would have held a press conference saying you’d read the reports and Freddie/Fannie were in danger of collapse?
Joseph
December 16th, 2011
2:55 pm
Looking good for re-election Jay… LOL….
The poll found that a majority of adults, 52 percent, said Obama should be voted out of office while 43 percent said he deserves a second term. The numbers represent a clear reversal since last May, when 53 percent said Obama should be re-elected while 43 percent said he didn’t deserve four more years.
Paul
December 16th, 2011
2:55 pm
Stevie Ray
“it’s basically an admission that same folks are not accountable in their positions as overseers”
So… what financials should they have looked at to arrive at their conclusions? If not the official filings, what?
Stevie Ray
December 16th, 2011
2:56 pm
BROCEPHUS,
I LOVE THIS ISSUE! Anytime we can get bi-partisan corruption in the headlines we get one step closer to meaningful government reform…heck at the rate we are going, I may see it in my lifetime….opppps, maybe my kids….opppps maybe my grandkids…oppps…
Grover Norquist was touched by Sandusky
December 16th, 2011
2:56 pm
JayB – keep up the good work. I really enjoy that your articles are enforced with facts………….. We got your back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Remember when President Obama had concentration camps, no one could find them but Glen Beck knew they were out there……..LoL
Peter
December 16th, 2011
2:56 pm
Good stuff Paul…. The Right not wanting more regulation, when obviously it is needed.
That is like saying the GOP is for smaller government, and a balanced budget…but of course the actions prove otherwise.
Guy Incognito
December 16th, 2011
2:57 pm
Paul
You don’t think his boyfriend’s job had anything to do w his blindness? He ignored the alarms of more than a few individuals
Brosephus
December 16th, 2011
2:59 pm
jm
Quit whining dude, you’re making yourself look more and more infantile every time you post.
If there’s a billion dollar fine per recall, they don’t have to pay if there is no recall. All it takes is sound engineering. You can’t hire engineers when your country has a one-track mindset on MBA’s. Quit making MBA’s seem like they’re more important than they really are and focus on engineering fields. You wouldn’t hire a CPA to wire your home, so why hire one to design a car?
How quickly the rhetoric changes. First, the government was nationalizing the auto industry. Now, the government is trying to destroy it. Find one story and stick to it. You’re flopping around more than Kerry and Romney combined.
Peter
December 16th, 2011
2:59 pm
REP. BARNEY FRANK, D-MASS.: “I think this is a case where Fannie and Freddie are fundamentally sound, that they are not in danger of going under.”
I guess the thought never occurred to the poster, maybe Barney Frank was lied too ?
(ir)Rational
December 16th, 2011
3:00 pm
AmVet – Yeah, I’m a baby compared to all you geezers.
Stevie Ray
December 16th, 2011
3:00 pm
PAUL,
Audit committees and simple reserve validity tests are readily available to pick up such irregularities in real time. They simply weren’t employed due to the politics and cupability that would accompany same. I should disclose that I was engaged by one of these GSE’s for actuarial work and I must tell you the culture, tone and environment I encountered was so arrogant, entitlement driven, and defined by the most inept business folks I’ve ever encountered…many of them didn’t even understand the mission or organziational format, or what a GSE really was….
Steve - USA
December 16th, 2011
3:00 pm
How could the figures be so far off? Is Fannie/Freddie exempt from independent auditors?
Brosephus
December 16th, 2011
3:00 pm
Stevie Ray
I think we have a much better chance at colonizing the sun when compared to getting sound and meaningful government reform.
Peter
December 16th, 2011
3:01 pm
Brosephus…… I guess the Right talks small government, then does the exact opposite.
Talks balanced budget, then does the exact opposite.
But they certainly don’t talk helping American’s in America !
Guy Incognito
December 16th, 2011
3:01 pm
Stevie Ray,
You didn’t have to be Karnak to make that prediction, but kudos anyway
Kamchak
December 16th, 2011
3:01 pm
Gramm succeeded in inserting two provisions to weaken the CRA, one reducing the frequency of examinations for CRA compliance to once every five years for smaller banks, the other compelling public disclosure of loans made under the program
What’s more, only commercial banks and thrifts must follow CRA rules. The investment banks don’t, nor did the now-bankrupt non-bank lenders such as New Century Financial Corp. and Ameriquest that underwrote most of the subprime loans.
These private non-bank lenders enjoyed a regulatory gap, allowing them to be regulated by 50 different state banking supervisors instead of the federal government. And mortgage brokers, who also weren’t subject to federal regulation or the CRA, originated most of the subprime loans.
[...]
“Most of the loans made by depository institutions examined under the CRA have not been higher-priced loans,” she said. “The CRA has increased the volume of responsible lending to low- and moderate-income households.”
In a book on the sub-prime lending collapse published in June 2007, the late Federal Reserve Governor Ed Gramlich wrote that only one-third of all CRA loans had interest rates high enough to be considered sub-prime and that to the pleasant surprise of commercial banks there were low default rates. Banks that participated in CRA lending had found, he wrote, “that this new lending is good business.”
It’s not about the CRA.
Normal
December 16th, 2011
3:01 pm
(ir)Rational
December 16th, 2011
3:00 pm
Watch who you are calling a geezer, whippersnapper!
Steve - USA
December 16th, 2011
3:02 pm
More regulation isn’t needed. More people going to jail if they commit fraud is what’s needed. You can have all the regulation in the world but if there is no enforcement than it is useless.
Brosephus
December 16th, 2011
3:02 pm
Yeah, I’m a baby compared to all you geezers.
Who you callin’ a geezer????
j/k
I haven’t hit 40 yet, so you’re not alone.
Paul
December 16th, 2011
3:03 pm
Guy
“You don’t think his boyfriend’s job had anything to do w his blindness?”
No more than Newt’s girlfriends had anything to do with his ethics fine and getting kicked out of his leadership post. Which is to say, it had nothing to do with anything.
” He ignored the alarms of more than a few individuals”
And just who were these individuals who knew better than the SEC filings what the true status was at Freddie/Fannie?
(see if your answer can avoid any reference to your fascination with Frank’s sex life)
Brosephus
December 16th, 2011
3:04 pm
Peter
Shhhhhhhh!!!! You’re gonna spoil the dreams of all the believers. What you’ve said is just like telling a little kid that there’s no Santa.
Paul
December 16th, 2011
3:05 pm
Stevie Ray
“. They simply weren’t employed due to the politics and cupability that would accompany same”
And you know this how?
Back Seater
December 16th, 2011
3:06 pm
Paul,
The left’s love for BF has never dispponited me, either…………..
Paul
December 16th, 2011
3:07 pm
Stevie Ray
So what your saying is, Rep Frank and others on the committee, not just Frank, looked at the available filings but should have known something was falsified, so they could have shifted resources to audit committees to undertake an examination to prove what they knew, but knowing what would be made public, which they just knew was there, they didn’t ask audit committees to investigate because they knew what wasn’t known would be a political embarrassment?
Really?
Whew….
Guy Incognito
December 16th, 2011
3:08 pm
“At a Congressional Hearing in 2003, Rep. Maxine Waters, Democrat of California objected to the proposal of stricter regulations on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac stating,
I have sat through nearly a dozen hearings where, frankly, we were trying to fix something that wasn’t broke. [sic] …These GSEs have more than adequate capital for the business they are in: providing affordable housing. As I mentioned, we should not be making radical or fundamental change… If there is anything to fix or improve, it is the [regulators].”
Sorry, just wanted to add one more quote from the geniuses. Gotta run and coach a bb game
Brosephus
December 16th, 2011
3:08 pm
More regulation isn’t needed. More people going to jail if they commit fraud is what’s needed. You can have all the regulation in the world but if there is no enforcement than it is useless.
So how do you get more enforcement when the current mindset is all about budget cuts? Enforcement is one of the first things out of the window, because it costs more and eats up more of the budget. How do you suggest we increase enforcement?
Guy Incognito
December 16th, 2011
3:10 pm
Paul,
“The plan was an acknowledgment of two things. First, more oversight was necessary for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac that have managed to accumulate over 1.5 trillion dollars in outstanding debt – averaging a 20% increase in residential debt per year. And second, the supervisory system in place did not have the tools to deal effectively with the size, scope, and complexity of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Subsequently, the recommendation was staunchly opposed by Congressional Democrats and National Association of Home Builders who thought that tighter regulation of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac would reduce their commitment to financing low-income and affordable housing.”
And yes, Newt’s hands are dirty too
Ok, now I’m really out
Paul
December 16th, 2011
3:11 pm
Stevie Ray
And I do not doubt the rest of your post. But to extrapolate from that to what a committee member (just one, mind you) should have known is a bit of a stretch.
Which leads to the thought, that premise is built upon the idea Rep Frank did not do something easily available to protect himself and Freddie/Fannie.
Have you thought, if all this was so obvious, that his Republican counterparts, who hate Freddie/Fannie, would have taken the action you describe in order to sink them?
Kamchak
December 16th, 2011
3:11 pm
Paul 3:07
The message is that there are no “knowns.” There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don’t know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don’t know.
Steve - USA
December 16th, 2011
3:12 pm
Brosephrus,
We can get rid of the earned income tax credit and use that money for additional enforcement.:)
Jm
December 16th, 2011
3:12 pm
Bro
What you ironically fail to realize is it is the democrats who are indeed flip flopping
First they save the industry, then they try to kill it
That is democrat insanity for you
(ir)Rational
December 16th, 2011
3:12 pm
Bro – I haven’t hit 30 yet. So, I could be alone?
AmVet - A Happy KwanzChristmakkuh to al!
December 16th, 2011
3:13 pm
Some people do not like the guy, but Al Gore did have a funny line about turning sixty. He said it was OK, because 60 is the new 59.
Speaking of which, I am totally digging this globally warmed December! (grin)
Steve, to your point at 3:02, in 2000, GWB “promised to clean up Wall Street”.
Yet in one of his very first acts as POTUS, he reduced the modest budget increase for an already insanely underfunded and undermanned branch of the SEC that was charged with investigating corporate crime. (I suspect that even then he knew he was gonna need those dollars to “liberate” Iraq.)
Which explains why prosecutions for corporate malfeasance and criminal negligence dropped off the charts during his presidency.
Welcome to the Corporatocracy.
(ir)Rational
December 16th, 2011
3:14 pm
Normal – Sorry geezer.
Peter
December 16th, 2011
3:18 pm
Brosephus.. Yup kind of like saying Newt is Christian…… after the divorces, and the cheating on the spouse’s. Or lying about the amount of money Freddie and Fannie paid him.
See with religion, one can constantly change your story, and be “reborn” constantly.
But isn’t ……… ” Thou shall not lie”, one of the Commandments ?
Well those Commandments are just talking points for the Right to stir up the simple minded, with their agenda that has nothing to do with helping anyone other then the super Rich.
Amazing how poor folks could even vote for a GOP candidate. but hey not much education in the South, and in allot of Right wing places.
(ir)Rational
December 16th, 2011
3:18 pm
AmVet – Speak for yourself – 70 in the middle of December blows. I’m dreaming of a white Christmas. Last year was awesome.
Steve - USA
December 16th, 2011
3:19 pm
AmVet,
Then let’s increase the budget. Seriously, Bush was an idiot but we can either fix things or cry about Bush. He doesn’t care, he is rich and happy on his ranch.
Peter
December 16th, 2011
3:19 pm
Jm… First they save the industry, then they try to kill it.
Really ? DO you actually have a point ?
Paul
December 16th, 2011
3:19 pm
Kamchak
I didn’t know that. Now I know. I wonder what else I don’t know? Perhaps I’ll never know. Or when I do know, I’ll know what I did not know!
(ir)Rational
December 16th, 2011
3:20 pm
Peter – is it really your place to judge whether anyone is or isn’t Christian? I know it isn’t mine, and I’m not sure why it matters even a little bit. But I’m just curious as to why it is yours.
Brosephus
December 16th, 2011
3:24 pm
jm
You’re basing your opinion on “your” thoughts and not theirs. Maybe, they have realized that the best way to get the attention of businesses and businessmen is to hit them where it hurts most, in the wallet. Their actions could mean “you build a good, reliable product and we’ll support you. You build a shoddy product and we’ll make sure you pay for it dearly”.
There’s more than one way to interpret things, and you have more than shown that you are not always right in your interpretations. However, I’ll let you continue to live in the world you’ve created as I’ve always done.
Steve
That sounds fine and good, but I think you’re gonna need more money than that to weed out all the corruption we have going on in this country. When you sit back and look at the corruption we now consider as just the way things are done, you will realize how much of a problem we really face.
(ir)Rational
There’s a few others here in their 20’s, I think.
Brosephus
December 16th, 2011
3:27 pm
Peter
I think it goes beyond just party stuff. I can’t recall any election within the past decade where I haven’t thought about and/or just written someone else’s name in instead of choosing between the candidates offered. Our entire system is corrupt. It isn’t a Republican or Democratic Party thing. It’s pure All-American corruption at it’s finest, and the citizens are being played as complete fools.
AmVet - A Happy KwanzChristmakkuh to al!
December 16th, 2011
3:27 pm
(ir)Rational, all I can say is that giving Georgia Natural Gas less of my money makes me holiday happy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKDLvbOqT_4
DebbieDoRight
December 16th, 2011
3:28 pm
Grover/Sandusy (LOVE your blog name): Mom’s always told me that you can rob more people with a briefcase than with a gun………….
That reminds me of a Dave Chapelle skit about White collar crime….
http://dailybail.com/home/dave-chappelle-on-white-collar-crime-i-plead-the-fifth-video.html
It’s the First video -
(ir)Rational
December 16th, 2011
3:30 pm
Bro – That gives me hope, the fact that I’m not alone. So many of my peers could care less about politics and the fate of our nation.
(ir)Rational
December 16th, 2011
3:33 pm
AmVet – well, when you put it that way, I completely agree. Although my wife seems determined to give them just as much as possible by keeping it unbearably hot in the house.
What are you talking about?
December 16th, 2011
3:35 pm
Hopefully we’ll see Barney and Dodd go to prison.
Brosephus
December 16th, 2011
3:36 pm
(ir)Rational
I’ve offended a few here by stating my opinions regarding the age of those who are currently making decisions. One of the reforms I’d suggest would be to require Congress to balance it’s membership by taking the same factors that we look at in discrimination: age, sex, race, etc… It would be impossible to do such a thing with the current electoral system we have, so it’s nothing but a pipe dream.
What are you talking about?
December 16th, 2011
3:36 pm
” He said it was OK, because 60 is the new 59.”
Wow, that is really funny, Vet. I mean damn, I’ve never heard such a funny joke before.
(ir)Rational
December 16th, 2011
3:39 pm
Bro – There are certain aspects that I think it definitely bodes well that we require you to wait til a certain age before attaining that job (however, I think that women could probably knock as much as five years off the age requirement over men), cause there is a certain level of maturity needed before you are ready for certain jobs. However, I don’t think there are enough stories about people my age entering politics. And when there are, the stories typically seem to be outrage, or quietly laughing about the 18-30 year old that was pissed about something and was elected mayor or to the city counsel or something.
Common Sense isn't very Common
December 16th, 2011
3:47 pm
Bro – then get off that pipe (dream that is).
Why not let the SEC keep the fines as an operational fund that way it will have a budget paid for like police depts with confiscated funds.
Peadawg
December 16th, 2011
3:47 pm
“Fannie, Freddie execs next targets for SEC”
Finally….
TaxPayer
December 16th, 2011
3:47 pm
So that’s what a Republican Utopia looks like. And if any don’t carry their own weight, toss ‘em over and let them fend for themselves.
Jay
December 16th, 2011
3:49 pm
Alex, a little more civility would be appreciated, please.
josef
December 16th, 2011
3:51 pm
(ir)rational
There several of your generation hereabouts…one just chimed in…there’s some benefits to geezerhood…you don’t have to give a sh*t anymore…
Normal
Right you are on question !…
Brosephus
December 16th, 2011
3:53 pm
NoCom
I’m about to get that pipe (smokestack) on the grill fired up in a few!!! I think that would be a good idea for funding SEC enforcement. I think it could possibly work for all agencies/departments. If all’s going fine and good, you don’t need enforcement. When somebody intentionally f**ks up, make’em pay dearly. I have no problem with that.
Peter
December 16th, 2011
3:55 pm
(ir)Rational.
Peter – is it really your place to judge whether anyone is or isn’t Christian? I know it isn’t mine, and I’m not sure why it matters even a little bit. But I’m just curious as to why it is yours.
You can call it judging, or just what it is, an observation. Seems the Right does like to use Religion as a “Marketing Tool “.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2011
3:57 pm
“I think it could possibly work for all agencies/departments”
and I don’t think it would be workable. With things like appeals and such, it could be YEARS before the agencies would see the money…if they get any at all. We need to fund the agencies regardless, and then put the money they DO get into the general fund to “pay it back”
Sid
December 16th, 2011
3:58 pm
CIVIL fraud? lawsuit? MIGHT have to give back their bonuses? that’s “aggressive enforcement action”? are you serious? granted, given what the SEC’s done to this point (i.e. NOTHING) this does seem like capital punishment by comparison but if that’s their idea of cracking down there really isn’t any hope for this country – we will have crossed the event horizon into a kleptocracy…
(ir)Rational
December 16th, 2011
3:59 pm
Peter – You’re making a moral judgement about someone and trying to sell it as an observation. I’m just saying, you don’t know what is in his heart, and I’m not sure why it matters. I agree, the right does seem to use religion as a marketing tool, which I find abhorrent, but to each their own. I don’t see what it would matter if we had a President who was atheist, Muslim, Catholic, Jewish, Mormon or otherwise as long as he or she didn’t let their superstitions affect the way they preformed their jobs. Same as with any company.
Brosephus
December 16th, 2011
4:03 pm
Doggone
Why put the money back into the General Fund? If it’s to pay back the extra costs of enforcement, then I’m good with that. I would much rather just pay for enforcement anyway and get rid of as much of the corruption as possible. I don’t see that happening though, as most of the corruption comes from those that make the rules, IMHO.
Common Sense isn't very Common
December 16th, 2011
4:07 pm
Doggone – You are correct I didn’t think it through completely. They need budget NOW, but money from fines shouldn’t ALL go into the general fund or they will find their budget reduced in the future (bean counters are unique creatures that live in their dark caves and give out pittances when they choose to).
Mary Elizabeth
December 16th, 2011
4:11 pm
“I haven’t hit 30 yet.”
“I don’t agree that a society that shares in the expenditures of someone else’s labors is a good thing. I take care of my own first, and others second. And I won’t apologize for it.”
—————————————-
These are statements – from the same blogger – one is statement from this thread, and one is from the previous thread. It do not think that this blogger’s perspective is atypical for his age group. Those under 30 were born when Reagan’s policies were dominant, and when the national consciousness of looking after “my own first” became a national priority.
Aside from this particular blogger, I believe this way of seeing oneself in relation to others has created a national consciousness of greed that has caused CEOs of large corporations, both public and private, as well many average Americans, to value accruing personal wealth at the expense of more humane goals. We are all interconnected whether we see it or not, and we will all go up or down together, whether we see that or not. I remember time in America, prior to 1980, when public service was valued and equal opportunity for all was advanced. When we lose sight of that larger vision for our nation, and when we lose sight of a historical perspective, we diminish not only ourselves, individually, but we diminish the consciousness and the greatness of our nation, as a whole.
Common Sense isn't very Common
December 16th, 2011
4:11 pm
Maybe Freddie and Fannie should sue Newt to get some of the funds back that they gave him. If they say he was a lobbyist and have the documentation to prove it, but he says he never did lobby for them they might have a case.
What a putz he is. If he is elected he might be the only president sued for divorce while in the WH.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2011
4:18 pm
“Why put the money back into the General Fund?”
Because that’s where the money comes from to fund them in the first place. There really aren’t very many agencies that had dedicated budgets. If you want to tie enforcement to funding, then they would be “borrowing” their funding from the General Fund and the fines they get would go to pay it back. Of course, it could be written that anything over goes to the agency – which means they wouldn’t have to “borrow” so much in the future.
Doggone/GA
December 16th, 2011
4:19 pm
Gotta run, be back later
Common Sense isn't very Common
December 16th, 2011
4:19 pm
Doggone – now that’s something that might work.
(ir)Rational
December 16th, 2011
4:21 pm
Mary Elizabeth – If my views are shared by a majority of my peers, or even a large minority, that gives me hope. You seem to forget this nation was built by individualists who valued personal liberty and freedom above all else. I haven’t. I didn’t know anything about Reagan when I was growing up, I was 3 when he left office, so whether you want to think it or not, my views weren’t shaped by his. My views weren’t shaped in that nature by my parents either. I gained my views through my experiences and by reading and by thinking. I won’t apologize for not believing in the “common good” or anything similar to that. I provide for myself and my family first. Anything I have above what I need to survive, I may use to help others. But it is my prerogative to do so if I choose. Not yours or anyone else’s to try and make me feel guilty or think that I’m wrong in thinking the way I do. You hold your views, I hold mine, and I don’t ever think we’ll find out who is “right” as there will always be people holding different views from one another. That’s what makes the world go round.
(ir)Rational
December 16th, 2011
4:22 pm
Oh, and Mary Elizabeth, my “selfishness” and “greed” allow me to provide for my family where I don’t have to ask for help from others to survive.
Brosephus
December 16th, 2011
4:23 pm
Doggone
Ok, I understand a bit better. That’s what I was meaning, but I just didn’t state it right. I wouldn’t mess with budgets. I would allow the agencies to keep fines and penalties as well as their budgets. That would leave them with a cushion they could borrow from for spikes in costs due to incidents that arise, and it wouldn’t affect the general budget at all.
scott
December 16th, 2011
4:36 pm
And you guys say Michelle Bachman is Batsh!t crazy!!! Pelosi actually says with a straight face that extending unemployment benefits will create 600,000 new jobs!!! Well, let’s see. We extended last year this time, right? Where is the 600,000 new jobs from that extension. How about the 600,000 jobs from a previous one? Man, first she says that each dollar spent on food stamps, the economy grows an extra $1.79. How does that make sense? Using her rationale, we should just pay everybody unemployment benefits and give everybody foodstamps. Wait a minute……..Isn’t that a Democrat platform? hmmmm………..
Common Sense isn't very Common
December 16th, 2011
4:38 pm
and you could fund the Secret Service the same way. Thye get to keep all the counterfeit money they confiscate as their operating budget
Common Sense isn't very Common
December 16th, 2011
4:46 pm
scott – while I agree that creating jobs from UI benefit extensions might seem a gray area. How many jobs were maintained because of it?
Money from UI goes directly back into the economy for housing, utilities, gasoline, food, etc. thereby saving jobs in this rocky economy.
Mary Elizabeth
December 16th, 2011
5:08 pm
(ir)Rational @ 4:21 and 4:22
First, let me clear up, for you, that I never said that you were “selfish” or that you had “greed” and, in fact, I was very careful to separate my comments into two paragraphs. The second paragraph, from which you extracted those two words, started with the phrase, “Aside from this particular blogger. . .”
Second, our founders were not all of the same mind, and the fact that you perceive of them as all of the same mind does not show an in depth understanding of their thinking. John Adams and Alexander Hamilton were more in favor of a centralized government, even though, in that day, they were thought of as conservatives. Thomas Jefferson and James Madison were proponents of individual liberties, and that is why Jefferson supported state’s rights; yet he was thought of as a progressive or liberal in his day. George Washington could see both perspectives, balanced in proportion to one another, and Washington often had to manage the great divide between Hamilton and Jefferson – both personally and ideologically. Jefferson was Washington’s Secretary of State and Hamilton was his Secretary of the Treasury. Eventually, Jefferson had to resign that position because the tension between himself and Hamilton was so great. Later, he came back as Adams VP and as third President, of course. I can see elements of worth in all of their positions. And yes, they all believed in individual liberties, hence our Bill of Rights written by Jefferson, which I strongly believe in, also. Yet, our nation is an evolving one, and FDR, JFK, and LBJ created policies whereby we could work together to enhance the common good for all while keeping our individual liberties.
You are unaware if you do not recognize that those right wing forces of power in our nation, which began under President Reagan, have continued for about thirty years to shape our national landscape which today has culminated in the great gap of the wealth and power of the few against the resources of the many. (Jefferson warned against this centralized wealth/power in the hands of the few because this would endanger our nation’s original tenets. Neither you nor I will have much liberty or freedom if corporate power is directly linked to governmental power, as we have seen happen through the the Koch Brothers and others of their ilk wield since the 1980s. See ALEC.
In no way, did I imply that you had studied Reagan, or even knew of his policies in any detail, or those political forces that put him and the Bushes into power. However, as is true with any generation, you are influenced by those forces of your time, nevertheless, even without directly realizing how or why you are influenced. Perhaps age will help you understand how this works in fuller detail. My father and mother were of the Depression and World War II years, and those years effected their outlook and worldview. My generation was of the Vietnam and Watergate era, and we were influenced by those forces.
Many of your generation, and younger, are now looking more toward public service, as in a renewed interest in Peace Corps service has demonstrated. here does not have to be a split between self-interest and public service. I worked for 42 years, part of which time my husband and I put our child through college so that she could be self-sufficient, but we also taught her to understand how all are interconnected. I simply think some of your generation have not been exposed to that balance because of the years in which you have matured. And I believe that that lack of balance could be destructive to the overall tenets of our nation, which are among others that all “are created equal” and that our government must be “of, by and, for” the people themselves, and not by the corporate money-valued barons of our day who also wield much political power through their money. If we do not see this, we are failing to recognize how we could lose that personal liberty and freedom that you and I, both, so value.
Jay
December 16th, 2011
5:33 pm
Don’t know if you folks had seen this, but it seems Rick Perry has retired from public service.
Well, kinda. It’s a ploy so he can double-dip on the taxpayer … http://www.texastribune.org/texas-politics/2012-presidential-election/perry-retires-boost-pension-pay/
Common Sense isn't very Common
December 16th, 2011
5:40 pm
Jay – Perry seems kinda like the Newtster just another scum sucking slimeball politician.
I had to say it that way to avoid moderation.
I can’t wait for the books that Newt’s ex’s get to write about him.
Perry is another texass two stepper.
Mary Elizabeth
December 16th, 2011
5:47 pm
Post Script to (ir)Rational -
My intent in addressing your thoughts today was not to make you feel guilty for your point-of-view (as you had mentioned), but to share, from my personal experience, another view that was more dominant on the American political landscape from the mid-1940s until 1980 than has been present since1980 until the present day.
Also, I believe that this nation – and this world – are evolving in the 21st century into a more vital egalitarian consciousness, which complements our nation’s original documents, i.e. The Declaration of Independence and The U.S. Constitution. If I am correct in perceiving this, then recognizing the value of the “common good,” as well as continuing to ensure individual liberties and freedoms, will be more in harmony with that emerging egalitarian consciousness than will be valuing inordinate self-interest, alone.
Mary Elizabeth
December 16th, 2011
6:12 pm
From the Perry article, linked above, which describes Rick Perry’s securing his own retirement from government funds:
“I do advocate totally rethinking the safety net, personal security programs completely,” Perry said in a November 2010 interview. “Why is the government collecting your tax money for retirement and health care programs? That’s not a stated constitutional role.”
————————————————
Another example of today’s callous, and often conservative career, politician who bows to the ideology of those who have greater power and wealth than he. Simply another example of the “I got mine; I couldn’t care less about you” worldview. Not a worldview for America to be proud of. The world expects more from America, and rightly so.
Sid
December 19th, 2011
8:21 am
I know this is an “old” topic at this point but now this is starting to make a little more sense – there are major ties to Newt! don’t get me wrong – if he’s connected he should be prosecuted (not just sued) but it’s awfully convenient that one of the few (arguably only) SEC actions of any significance just happens to implicate by extension the president’s likely challenger (du jour). anyone worried about the SEC doing its job being a sign of the apocalypse can go about their business – this is likely just politics…