The Keystone pipeline will NOT create 20,000 new jobs
“Millions of Americans are desperate for jobs, and no single project promises more of them than the proposed Keystone XL Pipeline, which would run from Canada to the Gulf Coast…. As the largest shovel-ready infrastructure project in the U.S., Keystone XL was expected to create 20,000 new jobs right away.”
– U.S. Sen. Dick Lugar and
Senate Minority Leader
Mitch McConnell
And that, of course, is false, and Lugar and McConnell have good reason to know it is false. The Keystone XL Pipeline, the centerpiece of the latest standoff in Washington, will not produce 20,000 shovel-ready jobs. Even TransCanada, the company pushing the pipeline’s construction, now acknowledges that it is false.
The number that the company likes to throw around is now 13,000 direct construction jobs, but that too is misleading. When challenged, the company acknowledges that it is counting what you might call “job years.” In other words, TransCanada believes the project will produce 6,500 jobs that last for two years.
Six thousand five hundred jobs is a far cry from 20,000. And even the 6,500-job estimate is much too high. According to an independent assessment by Cornell University’s School of Industrial and Labor Relations, the project would produce between 2,500 and 4,650 construction jobs, and could even end up costing the country jobs, for reasons that we’ll get to below.
TransCanada is basing its job estimates on a report that it commissioned from the Perryman Group. However, the Perryman Group has refused to release important data behind its estimate, claiming it to be proprietary information. The folks at Cornell nevertheless took what data Perryman did make available and found several major, fundamental flaws in its approach.
For example, a $1 billion portion of the Keystone XL pipeline has already been built and is up and operating. The Perryman study nonetheless pretends that section of the project is still on the drawing boards and, when built, will provide thousands of new jobs.
In addition, Keystone supporters ignore the fact that large quantities of Canadian tar-sands oil are already being imported into the United States and are being refined and used in the American Midwest. As the Cornell study points out:
“According to TransCanada, KXL will increase the price of heavy crude oil in the Midwest by almost $2 to $4 billion annually, and escalating for several years. It will do this by diverting major volumes of tar sands oil now supplying the Midwest refineries, so it can be sold at higher prices to the Gulf Coast and export markets. As a result, consumers in the Midwest could be paying 10 to 20 cents more per gallon for gasoline and diesel fuel, adding up to $5 billion to the annual US fuel bill.”
As the Cornell study concludes, those higher fuel prices for the Midwest could cost that region thousands of jobs. So while the pipeline construction would certainly help the Canadian tar-sands investors — many of them Chinese — get a higher price for their product by moving it to the Gulf, it could prove to be a wash or even a net negative in terms of jobs for American workers.
As the Cornell study concludes:
“It is unfortunate that the numbers generated by TransCanada, the industry, and the Perryman study have been subject to so little scrutiny, because they clearly inflate the projections for the numbers of direct, indirect, and long-term induced jobs that KXL might expect to create. What is being offered by the proponents is advocacy to build support for KXL, rather than serious research aimed to inform public debate and responsible decision making. By repeating inflated numbers, the supporters of KXL approval are doing an injustice to the American public in that expectations are raised for jobs that simply cannot be met. These numbers — hundreds of thousands of jobs! — then get packaged as if KXL were a major jobs program capable of registering some kind of significant impact on unemployment levels and the overall economy. This is plainly untrue.”
– Jay Bookman
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804 comments Add your comment
Granny Godzilla
December 14th, 2011
1:24 pm
Google Flammable Tap water….but not with a lighter in your hand
Pennsylvanian
December 14th, 2011
1:24 pm
Gee, jewcowboy, I thought you were sharper than that. Try this – the report is an attempt to mollify unions with the premise there would not be 20,000 jobs in order to protect Obama’s azz.
Thulsa Doom
December 14th, 2011
1:24 pm
Pennsylvanian,
Well. Looks like you did it. You went and upset the apple cart by pointing out that the study that Jay poses as an impartial study is actually done by a left wing group.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!!!!
Welcome to GLI.
The Cornell Global Labor Institute was established in 2005 to work with trade unions in the U.S. and internationally to help them and their civil society partners develop solutions to major social, economic and environmental challenges.
http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/globallaborinstitute/
Thulsa Doom
December 14th, 2011
1:26 pm
Global labor institute. No kook far left bias there huh?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAH!
jewcowboy
December 14th, 2011
1:26 pm
“How many municipal water supplies systems have been ruined by pipeline leaks?”
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Energy-Resources/2011/08/12/291-million-tab-from-Michigan-oil-spill/UPI-15891313146255/?spt=hs&or=er
Town Crier
December 14th, 2011
1:27 pm
“I have no idea as I am not an election official. I have no proof that it’s true, and I have no proof that it’s false. Until there’s proof that it’s in violation of current law, it’s not a problem at all in my eyes.”
The author of the article offers some proof. What research have you done? Do you think it likely or unlikely that illegals are voting?
“Currently, I think that all elections are nothing but a charade that allows those with money to continue to exert their control over the government. They’re all shams. Whether they’re important or not is moot as long as they don’t mean sh*t.”
Then why even engage me in debate over this issue? It makes no sense if that is really how you feel.
“You should cut back on your rhetoric intake. That will clear up confusion that you’re obviously experiencing.”
Unnecessary ad hominem statements. They prove nothing.
“As far as being right, yep, I think it is right to allow permanent residents a vote in local elections because they own homes and pay property taxes. They should be allowed to vote for the jackasses that will determine how their tax dollars are spent.”
But the majority decides of course.
“Enact legislation to do that. All one has to do is produce evidence of citizenship OR legal permanent residence status when registering to vote. It’s not hard to do that.”
Thank you. So something should be done. That is all I wanted to hear.
Misty Fyed
December 14th, 2011
1:27 pm
Oh BS. The number of jobs is tabulated by hours worked per qtr.
Gov’t employees have to report the number of hours worked on REcovery Act work and Non-recovery act work. Same employee but his work on recovery act case is being counted as a new created job.
Give me a break.
Pennsylvanian
December 14th, 2011
1:28 pm
Thulsa – The devil made me do it.
Thulsa Doom
December 14th, 2011
1:28 pm
Butch Cassidy,
Soooooooo getting back to my original question that not one liberal seems to be able to answer. So how many municipal water systems here in North America have been destroyed by oil pipeline leaks???
Kamchak
December 14th, 2011
1:28 pm
The fact that he fails to mention that suggests that either he’s trying to push a biased opinion or he’s ignorant of actual law. I’m willing to go with the former as the paper was produced for the Heritage Foundation.
Not to mention that biased opinion is used to create poutrage for blog trolling drama queens and their rabbit holes.
jewcowboy
December 14th, 2011
1:29 pm
Thulsa Doom,
“is actually done by a left wing group.”
Whose sponsors are unions…who support the pipeline’s construction.
harvey
December 14th, 2011
1:29 pm
If it creates any jobs it will do a lot better than the Democrats/Obama have been able to do.
jewcowboy
December 14th, 2011
1:29 pm
Pennsylvanian,
“the report is an attempt to mollify unions with the premise there would not be 20,000 jobs in order to protect Obama’s azz.”
You should try out for the NBA with that reach.
Town Crier
December 14th, 2011
1:29 pm
“Which is the entire raison d’être for thirty years of talk-radio.”
You have answered my questions. I won’t engage you further on any issue.
Adam
December 14th, 2011
1:30 pm
Thulsa: So how many municipal water systems here in North America have been destroyed by oil pipeline leaks???
How many would it take for you to admit that a pipeline shouldn’t be built next to an aquifer?
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, buddy. And that’s where GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS come in.
Adam
December 14th, 2011
1:31 pm
harvey: If it creates any jobs it will do a lot better than the Democrats/Obama have been able to do.
Better than 22 consecutive months of job growth? ok. I’m sure you have evidence to back that up.
St Simons - we're on Island time
December 14th, 2011
1:31 pm
waitaminute, why is anyone on the right screeching about wanting
to go into the oil bidness, anyways?
It’s not profitable, the profits are eaten up in regulations and
heinous gubmint gas taxes, so that the poor oilman doesn’t
make any profit. I heard it on AM radio, and dutifully regurgitated
here by the trollery.
Dayum, cons which is it?
Your positions have the consistency of my 2 yr old’s poop
jj
December 14th, 2011
1:32 pm
This is the EXACT same accounting measure used by the current administration to count jobs saved or created. If it is a sleazy accounting trick for the R’s then it is a sleazy trick by the D’s.
But does Jay have the stones to admit it?
And I am not advocating this trick for either party
Doggone/GA
December 14th, 2011
1:33 pm
“So how many municipal water systems here in North America have been destroyed by oil pipeline leaks???”
Has your house ever burned down? If no, why do you have home insurance?
Thulsa Doom
December 14th, 2011
1:33 pm
Jewcowboy,
Nice try sir. But the spill was cleaned up and the oil co. will be required to reimburse the EPA for the cost of the cleanup.No municipal water system was ruined or even severely damaged according to the article.
I’ll ask once again so that you can understand the question. SHOW ME A MUNICIPAL WATER SYSTEM OF ANY APPRECIABLE SIZE THAT WAS RUINED BY A PIPELINE SPILL HERE IN NORTH AMERICA. Not a well that was ruined by a decent sized water supply system that was actually ruined.
stands for decibels
December 14th, 2011
1:34 pm
What you wanna bet you could turn on Fox News right now and they would be telling the flock about the 20,000 + jobs this would have created etc etc.
dunno about the TeeVee version, but if you enter 20,000 jobs as keywords at their website, 4 stories filed between 8 and 13 December appear.
So yeah, of course they’ve been pumping the Drill Baby Drill receptors with this malarkey. These are the same folks who think if you’d just lift those gosh-durn environmental regulations, we’d all be sitting pretty in our 3-ton SUVs and pickemups, sucking down dollar-fifty-a-gallon gas.
(ok, I might be exaggerating their gullibility a tad, but not by much.)
/drive-by
jewcowboy
December 14th, 2011
1:34 pm
“How many municipal water supplies systems have been ruined by pipeline leaks?”
http://www.greatenergychallengeblog.com/blog/2011/07/28/yellowstone-spill-shadows-efforts-on-keystone-xl/
Thulsa Doom
December 14th, 2011
1:35 pm
Doggone,
Because many other houses have burned.Your example is a poor one.
Once again how many municipal water systems have been destroyed by oil pipeline spills. Jewcowboy made an effort- failed miserably but at least he tried.
Kamchak
December 14th, 2011
1:36 pm
Dayum, cons which is it?
Your positions have the consistency of my 2 yr old’s poop
Well, yesterday started out with the tax cuts belonging to Obama, but by afternoon they were the Bush tax cuts, so I would say that the cons are consistently inconsistent.
Jay
December 14th, 2011
1:36 pm
As jewcowboy points out, Thulsa, your “logic” has led you into an intellectual cul de sac.
You believe the Cornell school is a pro-labor outfit. Organized labor backs the pipeline, believing it will create jobs for its members. Therefore, if the Cornell findings are tainted in some way, as you suggest, they ought to be biased in FAVOR of the pipeline, correct?
Yet they have come to a conclusion that labor doesn’t like. Please explain how that proves they’re dishonest.
Adam
December 14th, 2011
1:37 pm
Thulsa: Once again how many municipal water systems have been destroyed by oil pipeline spills
How many does it take BEFORE it becomes wrong, Thulsa?
Thulsa Doom
December 14th, 2011
1:39 pm
Jewcowboy,
You keep trying. And you keep failing.
1200 barrels spilled sucks. But it was cleaned up and no municipal water system was destroyed or even severely damaged from what I could read. I’m gonna have to send you back to the drawing board yet again.
jewcowboy
December 14th, 2011
1:40 pm
Thulsa Doom,
“But the spill was cleaned up and the oil co. will be required to reimburse the EPA for the cost of the cleanup.”
And Keystone would cross one of America’s largest underground water reserves, the Ogallala Aquifer, which stretches across 174,000 sq miles and in under eight states so the stakes are much higher.
And, of course, Keystone has been totally on the up and up about its emergency response plan in the past:
“However, an independent assessment of TransCanada’s emergency response plans for the previously built Keystone pipeline was done by Plains Justice (Blackburn, 2010). This document clearly shows that the emergency response plan for the Keystone pipeline is woefully inadequate. Considering that the proposed Keystone XL pipeline will cross much more remote areas (e.g., central Montana, Sandhills region of Nebraska) than was crossed by the Keystone pipeline, there is little reason to believe that the emergency response plan for Keystone XL will be adequate.”
http://watercenter.unl.edu/downloads/2011-Worst-case-Keystone-spills-report.pdf
Jay
December 14th, 2011
1:40 pm
It’s like what Christine O’Donnell said yesterday in endorsing Romney, Kamchak:
“That’s one of the things that I like about him — because he’s been consistent since he changed his mind.”
Thulsa Doom
December 14th, 2011
1:42 pm
Adam,
Just show me a system that has been destroyed or severely damaged. Oil spills have been happening with regularity for a long time but with no permanent damage to water systems from what I’ve seen. It sucks that it happens but what are we going to do. Walk to work.
Jay
December 14th, 2011
1:42 pm
jkl, did you really recommend “commieblaster.com” as a reference site?
Adam
December 14th, 2011
1:42 pm
Jay: I did not know Christine said that about him. That made me laugh so loud I got looks from other people passing by my office.
Talking Head
December 14th, 2011
1:43 pm
Obama has turned this situation into a totally political one by previously stating that he didn’t want to decide on this until after the 2012 election. If this pipeline was being pursued by say GE it would have gotten approval yesterday. Again, the crony capitalism by this Administratrion and Congressional leaders is right infront of our faces.
Brosephus
December 14th, 2011
1:43 pm
Town Crier
This is in the Immigration and Nationality Act under Grounds of Deportability
Section 237 (a)(6)
(A) IN GENERAL- Any alien who has voted in violation of any Federal, State, or local constitutional provision, statute, ordinance, or regulation is deportable.
(B) EXCEPTION- In the case of an alien who voted in a Federal, State, or local election (including an initiative, recall, or referendum) in violation of a lawful restriction of voting to citizens, if each natural parent of the alien (or, in the case of an adopted alien, each adoptive parent of the alien) is or was a citizen (whether by birth or naturalization), the alien permanently resided in the United States prior to attaining the age of 16, and the alien reasonably believed at the time of such violation that he or she was a citizen, the alien shall not be considered to be deportable under any provision of this subsection based on such violation.
If it doesn’t violate law, then they are not deportable. Because of the motor voter registration law, most anybody who gets a driver’s license is registered or can register to vote. Because of that and other laws, the act of registering itself is not generally considered something bad. The issue is when a vote is cast in an election.
As law currently stands, one does not have to be a citizen, or even a legal permanent resident to get a driver’s license or even a social security number here in the US. There are certain non-immigrant classifications that allows a non-citizen to apply for and receive a valid SS#. They can also apply for and receive a driver’s license because of their classification.
The author of the article offers some proof. What research have you done? Do you think it likely or unlikely that illegals are voting?
I don’t research voting unless it involves a case that I’m working on. I find it quite dubious to think that illegals are out there voting in any substantial number. Most people who are here illegally try their best to avoid bringing attention to themselves, and voting would definitely not qualify as avoiding bringing attention to themselves. I’m not going to say that there’s zero chance, because I’ve seen people get deported or refused entry because of that very thing.
Other than reading that article, what research have YOU done?
Adam
December 14th, 2011
1:44 pm
Thulsa: Oil spills have been happening with regularity for a long time but with no permanent damage to water systems from what I’ve seen
So basically, you want to wait for it to happen before taking precautions.
jewcowboy
December 14th, 2011
1:46 pm
Thulsa Doom,
“1200 barrels spilled sucks. But it was cleaned up”
Please show me where the Keystone pipeline is 100% fail safe. Just because something hasn’t happen does not mean that it can not or will not in the future. The line of reasoning before the BP spill, was that US shores were safe due to the distance of the offshore rigs. This proved wrong. To the cost of billions of $’s, the environment, the economy and people’s lives.
So, show me the documentation that show this pipeline will never spill.
Thulsa Doom
December 14th, 2011
1:48 pm
“You believe the Cornell school is a pro-labor outfit”- Jay
Jay,
You failed reading comprehension 101. I never said it was a pro-labor outfit. I called it a left wing group for a reason. Because left wing also encompasses whacko envirnomentalists who will do anything to oppose big industry and in particular big oil. In this case the enviromentalists concerns at this ahem “institute” far outweigh their concern for the common man, in particular the blue collar oil worker. You think they give a damn about a common oil pipeline worker? Surely you jest. They are much more interested in socking it to big oil. And I suspect even you know that but just don’t want to admit it.
Mick
December 14th, 2011
1:48 pm
doom
All it takes is one accident. That aquifer is irreversible, once again, what’s more important water or oil?
jewcowboy
December 14th, 2011
1:48 pm
Thulsa Doom,
“It sucks that it happens but what are we going to do. Walk to work.”
That is a great option. We could also just have the oil refined in the Midwest where is currently being refined instead of building a potential disaster across one of the largest (and shallowest) aquifers in the US.
Kamchak
December 14th, 2011
1:49 pm
jkl, did you really recommend “commieblaster.com” as a reference site?
Had to go downstairs one floor for that one, but what a hoot!
AmVet
December 14th, 2011
1:51 pm
Don, hits the home run, while the cons are still trying to find their bats and balls.
The jobs topic is just a canard.
The benefits vs. costs of this project is what is of paramount importance.
Thulsa Doom
December 14th, 2011
1:51 pm
jewcowboy,
Please show me open your crystal ball and show me when and where it will spill to the point of causing an environmental catastrophe. 2 can play that game sir. You made the charge of how severe an oil spill can be. I simply asked you to point out just one municipal water supply system that has been permanently or at least severely damaged by a pipeline spill. You couldn’t. Nuff said.
Adam
December 14th, 2011
1:51 pm
Jay: I was trying to humor JKL2, but sadly I think he doesn’t really get how ridiculous that is.
St Simons - we're on Island time
December 14th, 2011
1:51 pm
Alaska oil bidness was safe….until the exxon valdez
(renamed the condoleeza rice)
gulf oil bidness was safe….until the BP spill
nuclear power was safe…..until 3 mile island & chernobyl
pinto was safe…..until you run into the back of it.
titanic was safe…until it hit an iceberg
America was safe – until the neocons said
“yuk-yuk, hold my beer and watch this…”
Granny Godzilla
December 14th, 2011
1:52 pm
It’s not the damage to the water system that needs to be worried about…
It’s the damage to the human’s digestive system, circulatory system….
neurological systems…..
Those pipes are tough to replace.
Brosephus
December 14th, 2011
1:53 pm
Kam
I did the same thing… That’s a classic there. I think I’m gonna add that site to my favs.
carlosgvv
December 14th, 2011
1:53 pm
The Republican Party has long since confirmed that it is built on a solid foundation of lies, lies and more lies. This, among other things, is almost certain to produce a third party which is more likely to hurt Republcians than Democrats. I look forward to a defeated Republican Party’s shrill whines about that third party and a complete denial from them that they have nobody to blame but themselves for their crushing defeat.
Pennsylvanian
December 14th, 2011
1:53 pm
Thulsa – Take it easy on Jay. He is not up to speed. He just found out the AJC is going to make him swap viewpoints with Kyle as part of their hysterical move to the center.
Thulsa Doom
December 14th, 2011
1:54 pm
“We could also just have the oil refined in the Midwest where is currently being refined instead of building a potential disaster across one of the largest (and shallowest) aquifers in the US.”
Jewcowboy,
From what I read in the link you provided the area of the aquifer that the pipeline will cross over is a small area. Why not just compromise and have that section of the pipeline built to higher specs? Is that an option to the environmentalists or is NO the only option to them?
Butch Cassidy
December 14th, 2011
1:56 pm
Thulsa Doom – ” where it will spill to the point of causing an environmental catastrophe”
Go back to my original post. How do contain, control and clean up a system that is BURIED UNDER GROUND? Jeebus man, we can barely contain the stuff when have easy access to it.
Thulsa Doom
December 14th, 2011
1:57 pm
carlosgvv
December 14th, 2011
1:53 pm
The Republican Party has long since confirmed that it is built on a solid foundation of lies, lies and more lies
This is what constitutes facts and logical debate from a lib. Cons lie, they lie, they tell more lies, blah blah blah blah blah lie blah liars blah telling lies blah they lie blah blah. fox news lies blah blah rush lies blah blah hanity blah blah bortz blah blah right wing radio blah blah
RB from Gwinnett
December 14th, 2011
1:57 pm
“OTTAWA — Two top U.S. hurricane forecasters, famous across Deep South hurricane country, are quitting the practice of making a seasonal forecast in December because it doesn’t work.
William Gray and Phil Klotzbach say a look back shows their past 20 years of forecasts had no predictive value.
The two scientists from Colorado State University will still discuss different probabilities of hurricane seasons in December. But the shift signals how far humans are, even with supercomputers, from truly knowing what our weather will do in the long run.”
You mean scientists don’t have all the answers?????? Geez. I think there has been a poster on this blog for years telling you these “forcasts” were a joke. Glad to see these 2 scientists finally had the intellectual honesty to admit it. How about the rest of you?
jewcowboy
December 14th, 2011
1:57 pm
Thulsa Doom,
“Please show me open your crystal ball and show me when and where it will spill to the point of causing an environmental catastrophe.”
I think that was thinking on April 19, 2010.
Adam
December 14th, 2011
2:01 pm
RB: You mean scientists don’t have all the answers?????? Geez.
Yeah! They actually work to make sure they are CORRECT about stuff, and change their predictions based on the data. IMAGINE THAT!
To that end, Evolution is a 500 year old scientific study.
Mick
December 14th, 2011
2:01 pm
rb
Nobody claimed it was an exact science but at least good people are trying to do their best and give us a ballpark figure, what’s wrong with that?
Libertarian
December 14th, 2011
2:01 pm
In Obama’s mind, unemployment checks create jobs….
jewcowboy
December 14th, 2011
2:02 pm
Thulsa Doom,
“Why not just compromise and have that section of the pipeline built to higher specs?”
Ideally a combination of redirecting it to the least sensitive area’s and higher specs. And oh, put it up for a separate vote like the Republicans wanted in 2010 with their Pledge to America. And be honest about the job creation aspect.
Thulsa Doom
December 14th, 2011
2:04 pm
Adam
December 14th, 2011
1:44 pm
Thulsa: Oil spills have been happening with regularity for a long time but with no permanent damage to water systems from what I’ve seen
So basically, you want to wait for it to happen before taking precautions.
Adam,
Please point out to me where I said this. Putting words in my mouth does not make your argument stronger. I’m simply saying that there has never been an oil spill at a pipeline severe enough to ruin or even severely damage a water system. there are simply too many controls in place, sensors, etc. And if there is concern over this aquifer its over a small section. Why not just build that section of the line to higher specs and require the pipeline to inspect it more rigorously? problem solved right? The problem here is one of the far left simply not wanting to agree to reasonable accomodation. Going by history your concerns over environmental damage are severely overblown. What was that they said about the Alaska pipeline? That it would cause irreparable damage to the caribou populations and possible extinction? Oh. yeah. They did say that didn’t they? And now the caribou populations have expanded and on top of that they love to rub against the pipeline for the warmth it provides in sub freezing temps. Bunch of whining and complaining and overblown hyperbole from the kook left. Nothing new there of course.
Butch Cassidy
December 14th, 2011
2:05 pm
Thulsa Doom -“Why not just compromise and have that section of the pipeline built to higher specs?”
Sounds great, if TransCanada can agree to that in writing before the voting deadline I’m all for it. If not, maybe they need to remove the pipeline from the bill and address it after the holiday. Oh wait, that’s what is being asked of the GOP leaders now. Woops.
mm
December 14th, 2011
2:06 pm
McConnell is not getting his way today so he’s taking his ball and going home.
Jason
December 14th, 2011
2:07 pm
Envirenmentalists amuse me. So worried about an aquifer, I’m guessing only a few of us here on this forum actually get our water from. Nebraskans would like to think that the aquifer is “theirs”. Fortunately, the Ogallala passes under about 6 different states. There is already about 100K miles of chemical/petro/gas pipelines running through it this very moment. In fact, look at Oklahoma. The state with arguably more pipelines per square mile than any other. Didn’t they have an earthquake a few weeks ago? Gee, I guess I haven’t heard of all the negative repercussions arising from the pipelines…. Maybe it just hasn’t shown up in the drinking water yet? I’ve got three major lines a few miles from my home. No worries here. Have no doubt, a pipeline WILL be constructed. Whether or not we as a country get to benefit from it, along with our neighbors to the north, is the only question left to be answered. I’m sure that China relishes the idea of tankering it across the seas, and would be happy to take it off Canda’s hands.
jewcowboy
December 14th, 2011
2:07 pm
RB from Gwinnett
“You mean scientists don’t have all the answers?”
“In science it often happens that scientists say, ‘You know that’s a really good argument; my position is mistaken,’ and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn’t happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion.” ~ Carl Sagan
Thulsa Doom
December 14th, 2011
2:08 pm
And be honest about the job creation aspect.- jewcowboy
And using a study by a leftwing group that does not do any pipeline building itself is being honest about job creation???
And leaving out all the indirect jobs that would be created or the overall economic impact of even 13,000 jobs is being honest about overall job creation??? I think not.
RB from Gwinnett
December 14th, 2011
2:09 pm
“To that end, Evolution is a 500 year old scientific study.”
Wow!! 500 years of study and still not one single example of something evolving into a more advanced species, yet you still believe it as fact? Doesn’t seem logical to me….
Talking Head
December 14th, 2011
2:09 pm
“Well, what we’re going to have to do is continue to make progress on the economy over the next several months. And where Congress is not willing to act, we’re going to go ahead and do it ourselves. But it would be nice if we could get a little bit of help from Capitol Hill.”
-President Obama, 12/14/2011
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/12/14/obama_where_congress_is_not_willing_to_act_were_going_to_go_ahead_and_do_it_ourselves.html
Thulsa Doom
December 14th, 2011
2:09 pm
“Fortunately, the Ogallala passes under about 6 different states. There is already about 100K miles of chemical/petro/gas pipelines running through it this very moment”
Oh lawdy. Someone hittem with facts again.
carlosgvv
December 14th, 2011
2:10 pm
Doom – 1:57
It’s time for your medicine now.
Butch Cassidy
December 14th, 2011
2:10 pm
Jason – “Have no doubt, a pipeline WILL be constructed.”
Probably, back to my original question. Where were you working on the Keystone and what did you do? I used to travel from Williston out to Opheim to visit my cousins at their ranch. We may have crossed some of the same areas.
Midori
December 14th, 2011
2:12 pm
…but you are merely throwing out a red herring.
Which is the entire raison d’être for thirty years of talk-radio.
Again — welcome to my world.
*************************************************************
Kammy – have you seen this? http://www.businessinsider.com/rush-limbaugh-hannity-imus-radio-ratings-2011-5#ixzz1gX7Ffjos
Jack
December 14th, 2011
2:12 pm
To hell with that old pipeline. We’ll just continue to buy oil from Venzuela. That way, no one will have to get their hands dirty with a shovel.
RB from Gwinnett
December 14th, 2011
2:12 pm
“Nobody claimed it was an exact science but at least good people are trying to do their best and give us a ballpark figure, what’s wrong with that?”
Whats wrong with that is there is very expensive envionmental legislation being written by people who believe these “ballpark” figures. I guess we should start asking my 12 year old what her thoughts on global warming are, pay her tons of money, and create policy based on whatever she says! Sounds like liberal logic to me!!
Talking Head
December 14th, 2011
2:13 pm
“To that end, Evolution is a 500 year old scientific study.”
500 years old, really? Someone didn’t pay attention in history or biology class. Theory of Evolution didn’t come about until 1800’s, so assuming my math is correct, that’s at a max of 211 years old.
Just curious, where did you get 500?
Steve - USA
December 14th, 2011
2:14 pm
I haven’t studied the environmental effects but 6,500 jobs is 6,500 jobs and those jobs pay a decent wage.
We can’t continue to have our cake and eat it to. Alternative energy like Solar is a long way from being viable so as long as Americans enjoy our Trucks, AC/Heat, electronic gizmo’s, Christmas lights, Planes, etc. we better realize that we are going to do some digging for fossil fuels.
I don’t see a whole lot of energy conservation from the general public, Dem’s or Lib’s.
My .02 cents which can be purchased for $1 on EBay.
Adam
December 14th, 2011
2:14 pm
RB: Wow!! 500 years of study and still not one single example of something evolving into a more advanced species, yet you still believe it as fact? Doesn’t seem logical to me….
I’m not really concerned with what seems logical TO YOU considering your past sense of what logic is. But just so you know, if the level of proof you are asking for were required for everything nothing would be proven at all. Basically, the scientific method is INDUCTIVE rather than deductive. Science presents a hypothesis and then makes every attempt to DISPROVE it. After all the attacks and potential evidence, not one person has been able to DISPROVE evolution, and all the while every single piece of evidence gathered points to the hypothesis being true.
Now, if you don’t BELIEVE that, that’s fine. Fact does not require your BELIEF in order to be true. It requires contrary evidence.
Mick
December 14th, 2011
2:14 pm
rb
Nice twist and shout – forgetaboutit…
Erwin's cat
December 14th, 2011
2:14 pm
Adam – “Yeah! They actually work to make sure they are CORRECT about stuff, and change their predictions based on the data. IMAGINE THAT!
To that end, Evolution is a 500 year old scientific study.”
———————————————————————-
1) the data suggests that long term weather/hurricane forecasting in not predictable…actually chaos theory was born out of weather prediction models (or lack of predictability) and the butterfly effect as well.
2) Darwin’s theory “the origin of species” was published in 1859…hardly 500 yrs
Adam
December 14th, 2011
2:15 pm
That is to say, for it to be FALSE there has to be CONTRARY evidence,
Liars Liars Pants on Fire
December 14th, 2011
2:15 pm
There is a plague that is particularly rampant in society. Even REPUBLICANS are not immune and many of them are infected with it.
What is this evil plague? This epidemic is the practice of lying and dishonesty.
The GOP has lying down to a science. They not only lie to America they lie to their OWN supporters.
Their SUPPORTERS EAT IT UP HOOK, LINE AND SINKER!
Adam
December 14th, 2011
2:16 pm
Ok so not 500 years, more like 200+. Oh well, I guess that means it’s not true, right?
That Black guy
December 14th, 2011
2:16 pm
Adam
December 14th, 2011
12:50 pm
Paul: I’m talking about the socialist leader in chief and his ilk and minions
Wow. Just a few more Soros and Solyndra references and every single person here would get a bingo all at once!
Got any bingo cards for Koch, Fox, Bush, rich, and the other strawmen that get flung about like monkey poo?
Erwin's cat
December 14th, 2011
2:16 pm
try 152 yrs
HDB
December 14th, 2011
2:17 pm
As EVERYONE is getting bent out of shape here, may I approach this “logically”:
We all know that the Keystone Pipeline was initially envisioned to pass through some environmentally-sensitive areas, particularly the Ogalalla Aquafer in Nebraska. Many don’t know how far and how DEEP the effect would be if a major oil spill occurred. This article (provided to me by AmVet) would illustrate the size of the Ogalalla Aquafer (http://www.choicesmagazine.org/2003-1/2003-1-04.htm). If one looks at the SIZE of this thing, it’s quite telling that a spill of any decent magnitude would not only adversely affect the high Plains of the Midwest, but also the nation as a whole. Both the Governor of Nebraska and the State Department agreed that the pipeline location should be shifted so that the adverse effects could be minimized…but the pipeline route is STILL going through sensitive land; therefore, a complete environmental study is being done so that it can be EFFECTIVELY ascertained as to the possible damage if an oil spill occurred.
Now, for those who want to “fast track” this: before ANY major project is undertaken, many businesses practice “contingency theory”, i.e., what to do IN CASE OF an occurrance. The problem is this: there is NO PREVIOUSLY PROVEN methodology to show what to do IF a major aquafer is contaminated and the effect upon not only major cities, but a nation that depends on a region agriculturally. Wouldn’t it be prudent that they TAKE THE TIME to develop such a plan….or if you remember the BP Gulf Spill, their contingency plan for the Gulf was the SAME as it was for Alaska…and one of their resources was DEAD!! We have yet to know the full impact of the Gulf; do we want to discover AFTER THE FACT that the contamination of a major aquafer could have been avioded by being prudent in the front end!!
NO ONE I know would be against the pipeline….but can we agree to make sure that ALL of the bases are covered first????
jj
December 14th, 2011
2:18 pm
Does anyone know how deep the aquifer is? and how deep is the pipeline going to be buried?
I am guessing the time it would take for the oil to penetrate 1000 feet of ground (only a guess)is much greater than the time it would take to find and correct the leak.
Adam
December 14th, 2011
2:18 pm
That Black guy: Got any bingo cards for Koch, Fox, Bush, rich, and the other strawmen that get flung about like monkey poo?
Well no, but for the record putting “Bush” or “rich” on a bingo card doesn’t really qualify. Although I am considering adding “evil rich” since only conservatives use that one.
Thulsa Doom
December 14th, 2011
2:18 pm
carlosgvv
December 14th, 2011
2:10 pm
Doom – 1:57
“It’s time for your medicine now.”
Carlos,
Just more of your substantive debate skills at work I see.
Kamchak
December 14th, 2011
2:19 pm
Midori
I had to laugh at the comments at the end of that article.
Adam
December 14th, 2011
2:19 pm
Do you have a point or are you just going to jump on my being wrong about the 500 years like jumping on someone’s grammar as though it helps you win?
mm
December 14th, 2011
2:21 pm
RB,
“Doesn’t seem logical to me….”
Logic is not your friend.
Mick
December 14th, 2011
2:23 pm
rb
What legislation is being written about hurricane prediction?????
jewcowboy
December 14th, 2011
2:23 pm
Thulsa Doom,
“I think not.”
If I had the time, I could go back through past columns on here and find hundreds, if not thousands of examples of “conservatives” bloviating about the inflated numbers put out by various gov’t sources on GM and Chrysler’s bailout as well as the stimulus, criticizing those numbers for including the exact thing you say should be included.
Why is it ok to include them now, but not then?
Butch Cassidy
December 14th, 2011
2:24 pm
HDB – “NO ONE I know would be against the pipeline….but can we agree to make sure that ALL of the bases are covered first????”
In a rational world we would. However, since the GOP led Congress has decided to incoporate it into a bill that has to be voted on before January 1st, safety is a moot point. As with all political game playing, you throw logic out the window in the hopes that your opponent will lose.
md
December 14th, 2011
2:24 pm
I believe the precedent was set with the counting standards of the stimulus…….”will count those that received stimulus money regardless if one was ever in jeopardy of losing one’s job”.
But, this is the misfits we are talking about…..where both sides like to throw their own numbers into the cbo and claim Oz is just around the corner.
I’d caution any numbers “out there” at the moment…….believe at one’s own peril.
HDB
December 14th, 2011
2:24 pm
jj
December 14th, 2011
2:18 pm
As per your question about the aquafer — from wiki…….
The water-permeated thickness of the Ogallala Formation ranges from a few feet to more than 1000 feet (300 m) and is generally greater in the northern plains.[4] The depth of the water below the surface of the land ranges from almost 400 feet (122 m) in parts of the north to between 100 to 200 feet (30 to 61 m) throughout much of the south. Present-day recharge of the aquifer with fresh water occurs at an exceedingly slow rate suggesting that much of the water in its pore spaces is paleowater, dating back to the last ice age and probably earlier. Withdrawals from the Ogallala are in essence mining ancient water.
Erwin's cat
December 14th, 2011
2:25 pm
hardly like grammar police…exaggerating your reference by some +200% to make your point nullifies your entire argument and likely several others…the phrase “intellectual honesty” comes to mind
AmVet
December 14th, 2011
2:25 pm
Envirenmentalists amuse me.
As for me, do nitwits who cannot spell.
And here’s a tongue in cheek prayer to the karma gods that you live on top of some yet undiscovered Love Canal.
The irony would be delicious…
jewcowboy
December 14th, 2011
2:27 pm
“Got any bingo cards for Koch, Fox, Bush, rich, and the other strawmen that get flung about like monkey poo?”
Yeah…we should never speak of Bush again. He never existed. That’s at least the mantra of the Republican Party would love to get forget he ever existed.
Welcome to the Occupation
December 14th, 2011
2:27 pm
Liars Liars: “The GOP has lying down to a science. They not only lie to America they lie to their OWN supporters.
Their SUPPORTERS EAT IT UP HOOK, LINE AND SINKER!”
The Republican party is exhibit A in why Plato was probably right in his belief that democracy will inevitably collapse back into tyranny.
jj
December 14th, 2011
2:28 pm
Aound the answer to my own question. 200-400 feet from the surface.
Very interesting is that many parts of the aquifer are inpenetratable from surface water due to rock formations.
The rate at which recharge water enters the aquifer is limited by several factors. Much of the plains region is semi-arid with steady winds that hasten evaporation of surface water and precipitation. In many locations, the aquifer is overlain, in the vadose zone, with a shallow layer of caliche that is practically impermeable; this limits the amount of water able to recharge the aquifer from the land surface. However, the soil of the playa lakes is different and not lined with caliche, making these some of the few areas where the aquifer can recharge. The destruction of playas by farmers and development decreases the available recharge area. The prevalence of the caliche is partly due to the ready evaporation of soil moisture and the semi-arid climate; the aridity increases the amount of evaporation, which in turn increases the amount of caliche in the soil. Both mechanisms reinforce the difficulty that recharge has in reaching the water table.
Recharge in the aquifer ranges from 0.024 inches (0.61 mm) per year in parts of Texas and New Mexico to up to 6 inches (150 mm) per year in south-central Kansas [7]
Based on the worst case scenario it takes 1 year for 6 inches of moisture to get to the aquifer. I am hoping we have good enough engineers to figure out how to stop a leak before it penetrates 200-400 feet of soil. (Double walled pipes, concrete encased pipes, etc…)
Liars Liars Pants on Fire
December 14th, 2011
2:28 pm
@HDB December 14th, 2011 2:17 pm – As EVERYONE is getting bent out of shape here, may I approach this “logically”:
*********************************************************
Some of “YOU” people are what STUPID people THINK SMART people sound like.
Some of what most of you are saying has no substance. It is SMOKE AND MIRRORS.
Why can’t YOU “SMART PEOPLE” admit YOU HAVE BEEN LIED TOO AGAIN?
As someone previously said, YOU ARE BEING BAMBOOZLED BY THE REPUBLICANS!
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
December 14th, 2011
2:28 pm
picture Bill Orvis White or Redneck Convert doing statistics.
that’s the heritage foundation
Hey! I can hear you up here!