Getting to the truth about HOT-lane operations
The Georgia Public Policy Foundation, an Atlanta-based free-market think tank, wields a lot of influence with the state’s conservative leadership. The foundation has also been a leading advocate of public and private toll-road projects, including the controversial I-85 HOT-lane conversion.
In an article headlined “State must ensure Georgians warm up to HOT lanes,” GPPF vice president Benita Dodd pleads for patience from commuters and politicians alike, saying it’s much too early to proclaim the I-85 project a failure. In other cities, she points out, it took some time before motorists got used to the idea and began to use HOT lanes regularly.
Her point is valid. When Ga. 400 first opened, Atlanta media outlets, including this newspaper, ran a lot of stories pointing out that very few people were using the highway. That situation changed pretty quickly as commuters changed their travel patterns.
To bolster public patience, Dodd cites the example of State Route 91 in southern California. After HOT lanes opened on that highly congested route, Dodd writes, toll-paying commuters not only saved 30 minutes on a 10-mile trip, “Rush-hour speeds in the regular lanes increased by 17 mph and peak-period congestion in the morning was reduced by over an hour.”
That does sound highly encouraging — a 17-mph increase in the general lanes! Unfortunately, it has not exactly been the experience of commuters in the I-85 corridor, where motorists in the regular lanes complain that commutes have gotten considerably longer. Why has our experience been so different?
Well, here in Georgia, the two new HOT lanes — one in each direction — were carved out of existing interstate, pushing traffic into the remaining lanes. In California, traffic flow improved because four additional travel lanes — two in each direction — were built in the median of SR 91 as HOT lanes. In other words, significant new capacity — not HOT-lane technology — accounted for the improvement cited by Dodd. (By the way, that improvement proved temporary, largely disappearing as additional traffic was drawn by that additional capacity.)
GPPF has also tried to dispel the notion of HOT lanes as “Lexus lanes,” which it defines as “an elitist way to enable wealthier, paying motorists to bypass the congestion that the unwashed masses must endure.” Again citing California’s experience, GPPF claims that HOT-lane users on SR 91 were no different demographically than those using regular lanes.
The Reason Foundation, the libertarian think tank that has championed HOT lanes on the national level, makes similar claims, arguing that “studies of the 91 Express Lanes indicate that use increases slightly with income group.” However, the studies cited by Reason and GPPF directly contradict what they claim.
According to those studies, commuters with incomes above $100,000 were more than twice as likely to use the toll lanes frequently than those making less than $60,000. That is not a “slight increase” among income groups. The studies also found that as fares rose higher and higher, usage by middle-income commuters dropped significantly.
“The significant decline in reported toll lane use by commuters in the $40-60K category suggests that these middle-income commuters have been unusually sensitive to the toll increases, and are less willing to pay tolls despite the worsening traffic congestion in the corridor,” the study concluded.
That trend could be important to travelers in the I-85 corridor as that project matures, usage increases and tolls are raised to fend off congestion. (Today, the highest toll collected on SR 91 is $9.85 for the 10-mile trip, more than double the highest fare of 10 years ago.)
Interestingly, that study, led by Edward Sullivan of Cal Poly State University, also found that SR 91 commuters consistently overestimate how much time they save by using the toll lanes, overshooting the mark by anywhere from five to 30 minutes a trip.
“It suggests that making available accurate data on actual toll lane time savings might result in reduced toll lane use,” the writers warn. In other words, it’s not the deal it may appear to be, although you may already know that.
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383 comments Add your comment
MARTA Rida
November 2nd, 2011
9:50 am
Mr Sunshine, I bet you use MARTA to get to the airport? Your the guy standing in the corner holding his luggage with a fearful look like everybody on the train is trying to hurt you? Guess what, nobody cares about your damn luggage. Don’t like MARTA, then don’t ever complain about traffic! That’s all I ever hear is people complain about traffic, then when I bring up the transportation tax they all say NO. What other solution is there to traffic other than mass transit?
USinUK
November 2nd, 2011
9:51 am
Butch – 9:49 – that explains the … ahem … “decorations” that hang off the hitch in the back …
Butch Cassidy
November 2nd, 2011
9:52 am
Maybe the legislature just needs a more positive ad campaign to get everyone on board. How bout this: HOT Lanes – The Lanes so nice, we charge you twice!
Joe Hussein Mama
November 2nd, 2011
9:52 am
USinUK — “ya gotta love Eli and his daily post …”
I think it is DARLING how he’s pretending to care about Mexicans when the Tea Party would be perfectly happy to put all Hispanics (my wife included), regardless of national origin or citizenship, into rail cars and then ship them south of the Rio Grande.
Go peddle crazy somewhere else, Eli. Free Republic, Little Green Footballs, Rense and Carnicom ought to be fertile land for you to raise a new crop of nuttery.
Aquagirl
November 2nd, 2011
9:53 am
I’m not a online poker player and I don’t think it’s fair that those who do should pay disproportionately for my roads.
Ah, the old sin tax dodge. When you need a teat, pick one on the unpopular sow. This somehow makes freeloading ok.
Darwin
November 2nd, 2011
9:53 am
What’s the complaint? We must ensure that our top 1% get to where they’re going fast. I mean, I’m depending on you people to make a living with the other 99%. And those not in the top 1%, they’re voting Republican because they THINK they’re in the top 1%! We still need you man.
kayaker 71
November 2nd, 2011
9:54 am
USinUK,
“The beatings will not stop until morale improves”. Business is the engine that has produced most of the prosperity in this country that millions have enjoyed for the last 100 yrs. What a nice environment that liberals create for business to thrive!!! No wonder they go overseas into less business hostile environments. “Making them pay their way”? Only Japan (40.6%) pays more federal corporate tax than the US (38%). How much will it take to completely drive them away from this country. And you wonder why they are leaving? The evil Koch brothers employ nearly 70,000 people world wide. Lots of good salaries, health care benefits, 401Ks and other retirement benefits. Wonder how many of their employees think that they are evil?
whatdoiknow
November 2nd, 2011
9:54 am
Gee . . . I wonder how fast traffic would flow if all lanes were unrestricted?
Paul
November 2nd, 2011
9:55 am
Butch 9:49
well…. at least something they have works…..
whatdoiknow
November 2nd, 2011
9:55 am
Gee . . . I wonder how much traffic will be backed up once Hot Lanes are introduced to I-575 . . .
Paul
November 2nd, 2011
9:56 am
kayaker 71
You’re making the case that US corporations actually pay 38%?
Joe Hussein Mama
November 2nd, 2011
9:56 am
K71 — “Business is the engine that has produced most of the prosperity in this country that millions have enjoyed for the last 100 yrs.”
Business wouldn’t have done jack squat without the participation of labor.
Capital can’t do a thing without labor.
Gwinnett since 91
November 2nd, 2011
9:56 am
HOT lanes are just another fundraiser for the bloated beaurocracy we have. Its class warfare, nothing less, nothing more.
whatdoiknow
November 2nd, 2011
9:56 am
Gee . . . I wonder how pissed off folks are that have “paid” for the inconvenience created by the Hot Lanes . . .
AmVet - Read my lips. No new hidden taxes.
November 2nd, 2011
9:57 am
Road to ???,
I’d have to look up which logical fallacy that 9:48 of yours is, but I’m pretty sure it is something straight out of sixth grade discourse.
(Hint, the answer is no.)
Peadawg
November 2nd, 2011
9:57 am
“Ah, the old sin tax dodge. When you need a teat, pick one on the unpopular sow. This somehow makes freeloading ok.”
Not sure how that’d be freeloading considering at 9:36 I said THAT WOULD CERTAINLY INCLUDE ME. I’d be getting taxed under this scenario. Damn, aquagirl…read before you spout crap from your rear.
DebbieDoRight
November 2nd, 2011
9:58 am
k71: Business is the engine that has produced most of the prosperity in this country that millions have enjoyed for the last 100 yrs. What a nice environment that liberals create for business to thrive!!!
You know if they don’t like how things are done, they can always take their business incorporation licenses (usually out of Delaware); and move them to a country that’s more slave…..i mean business friendly. Like China for instance.
They can set up shop in China; then cry when the Chineese takes over their corporation and renames it “The People’s Republic Of WalMart”.
Felton McMichael
November 2nd, 2011
9:58 am
@aquagirl 9:53 — that was directed @ peadawg right? just to be clear, i’d rather “vices” not be taxed disproportionately and that to the extent they are taxed those taxes be directed at whatever harms they may cause – online poker taxes would be used to pay for more math classes; liquor be taxed to pay for substance abuse treatment, etc.
Robert
November 2nd, 2011
9:59 am
My neighbor and I used to carpool when we had the “right” to use the HOV with two people. Now, that option has been denied us, and we’re driving two cars to work. Is this what the DOT wanted—100% more pollution? I know of many who have done the same thing. I hope HOT LANES are an immediate and total failure !!!!!! Please don’t use them.
Butch Cassidy
November 2nd, 2011
9:59 am
Just remember, the HOT lanes are an invaluable asset. They will ensure that the “job creators” are able to move quickly and efficiently to their destinations. They must not be burdened by the heavy yolk of over taxation and long commutes. Those who oppose the HOT lanes oppose these great United States of America!
Think I’ll submit that to Herman Cain.
USinUK
November 2nd, 2011
10:00 am
kayaker – businesses have a higher rate, but they pay the least – mostly because they off-shore their HQ, while keeping their operations here
http://www.npr.org/2011/09/10/138867588/corporate-taxes-how-low-can-you-go
this is a heads-I-win, tails-you-lose proposition – we can keep it as is and they stay off-shore or cut it and still not get the money
kayaker 71
November 2nd, 2011
10:01 am
Joe,
Granted, labor has been a big factor. But without business, labor wouldn’t have anyplace to work. Jobs….. who provides them? Business, plain and simple. Who puts people to work? Business. Who pays salaries, health care benefits, retirement plans?… Business. To most liberals, profit is a dirty word. But without profits, business cannot survive. Is that so hard to understand?
USinUK
November 2nd, 2011
10:01 am
JHM – more to the point, they can’t do anything without customers.
which is why corporations are screwing the pooch by sitting on profits and not hiring.
USinUK
November 2nd, 2011
10:02 am
kayaker – “But without business, labor wouldn’t have anyplace to work.”
nice try, but demand drives all
not supply
Joe Hussein Mama
November 2nd, 2011
10:03 am
B. Cassidy — ” They will ensure that the “job creators” are able to move quickly and efficiently to their destinations.”
One hopes that they’ll actually create some effing jobs when they get there.
stands for decibels
November 2nd, 2011
10:06 am
aren’t you one of the ones that jumps all over the statement, ridiculing personal anecdotes as evidence?
Yes, I am. And I ridicule these anecdotes mostly because I’ve never seen anything like them in my own experience. However, I have plenty of evidence beyond my one (1) illustrative example. You can start by looking at the ridiculous horsepower race going on at all levels of the auto industry. And by how the industry continues to net incredible profit margins on grotesque pickups and SUVs.
carlosgvv
November 2nd, 2011
10:06 am
USinUK – 9:48
With all the tabloids you have, EVERYTHING is in the news.
jj
November 2nd, 2011
10:06 am
Lets think back to many of the articles in the AJC as the hot lanes were proposed and opened
1) When polled the users of I85 said they would not use the hot lanes
2) The DOT admitted that the toll could cause as many as 120 cars per hour per lane would move to the free lanes
3) The tollway authority said the HOT lanes would probably never pay for itself and it would tap the GA 400 tolls to subsidize it.
So in summary, we spend $60mm dollars for technology that will never pay for itself and has a high potential to make traffic worse. Only in government!
kayaker 71
November 2nd, 2011
10:07 am
USinUk,
If you all wound up about how much corporations pay to the federal government, perhaps you should pay more attention to tax reform. There is not one liberal I know in the public sector that has advocated tax reform across the board. Only Republican candidates. If you don’t like Cain’s 9-9-9 plan, perhaps Perry’s flat tax. You continue to whine about how unfair our tax code treats the common man and benefits evil business but you continue to support the system.
USinUK
November 2nd, 2011
10:08 am
carlos – 10:06 –
well said.
thank god we’re lighter by one now with the demise of News of the World …
Aquagirl
November 2nd, 2011
10:09 am
I’d be getting taxed under this scenario
Then why not pay gas taxes? What’s with the gyrations to pay when you gamble, instead of when you drive? Unless of course you plan on gambling enough to pay for all roads yourself. In that case you need help.
But how big of you to decide for everyone in the gambling group. Damn,Pea….read your own posts, you might realize only a mighty big ego assumes because it’s okay with you, everyone wants to provide that teat.
Tapping gamblers has worked out so well for the HOPE scholarship it now doesn’t cover full costs. So when the poker money runs out (like that’s gonna cover our roads anyhow, another crap assumption) what source would you like to leech next? Any other groups you’d like to speak for?
USinUK
November 2nd, 2011
10:09 am
kayaker – you must be new here, I’ve talked about my support for the flat tax (no deductions EVAH) for years.
Butch Cassidy
November 2nd, 2011
10:09 am
kayaker 71 – ” But without business, labor wouldn’t have anyplace to work. Jobs….. who provides them? Business, plain and simple. Who puts people to work? Business. Who pays salaries, health care benefits, retirement plans?…
Who lays off thousands of workers in the pursuit of short term gains? Business. Who off shores jobs and displaces thousands of workers and their families? Business. Who rewards their CEO’s with lavish pay packages and golden parachutes at the expense of the employees? Business. Who screams poverty and uncertainty while reaping record profits? Business……..Shall I go on, or have you had enough?
Joe Hussein Mama
November 2nd, 2011
10:10 am
K71 — “Granted, labor has been a big factor. But without business, labor wouldn’t have anyplace to work.”
Prior to early industrialization (e.g. Bronze and Iron Age), labor worked for itself. Industrialization brought on the specialization of labor. It is that specialization that business relies on, otherwise, businesses seeking workers could take anyone who walked in off the street.
“Jobs….. who provides them? Business, plain and simple.”
Labor . . . where does it come from? Workers, plain and simple.
“Who puts people to work? Business.”
Whose effort is monetized by business? Labor’s.
“Who pays salaries, health care benefits, retirement plans?… Business.”
Despite your rather lame construction, business does not pull those things out of its butt. Business provides those things NOT out of equity capital, but out of ONGOING PROFIT, which was earned thanks to the labor of businesses’ workers.
Maybe you think the Business Fairy flies in through an open window and magically bestows all those goodies on workers simply because of the goodwill of their employers, but the fact of the matter is that businesses can afford to provide those benefits because they made enough gross on LABOR’S EFFORTS to AFFORD those benefits.
“To most liberals, profit is a dirty word.”
Not intended to be a true statement.
“But without profits, business cannot survive. Is that so hard to understand?”
Without labor, business and profit would not exist. Is THAT so hard to understand?
John Adams
November 2nd, 2011
10:11 am
What I love about this is that social engineering, which groups like GPPF and Reason have long disparaged, is okay when it’s something they like! “Getting people to change their driving patterns” using government to make the world the way you want it as requiring transit-oriented-development through zoning laws.
It’s laughably ironic.
Joe Hussein Mama
November 2nd, 2011
10:11 am
Stands — “However, I have plenty of evidence beyond my one (1) illustrative example. ”
As I recall, Doom said pretty much the same things you’re saying when we called him out on his ‘example.’
WOODSTOCK MIKE
November 2nd, 2011
10:15 am
Why do liberals hate business, rich people, wall-street, etc??
What a rediculous way to look at things.
Liberals have such a jealous mentality, just be happy with who you are, don’t be angry about it, everyone has a place in society.
Joe Hussein Mama
November 2nd, 2011
10:15 am
K71 — “There is not one liberal I know in the public sector that has advocated tax reform across the board.”
That’s just code for a flat tax, and I see nothing virtuous or even workable in it.
“Only Republican candidates. If you don’t like Cain’s 9-9-9 plan, perhaps Perry’s flat tax.”
IMO, both suck.
“You continue to whine about how unfair our tax code treats the common man and benefits evil business but you continue to support the system.”
You presume much, and you’re apparently claiming that a flat tax is axiomatically virtuous when that’s far from true.
Jack
November 2nd, 2011
10:15 am
Jm, you’re giving Bookman a heartburn. If you “imply” that you know more about a subject than he, you’ve messed ‘em up.
Aquagirl
November 2nd, 2011
10:15 am
@aquagirl 9:53 — that was directed @ peadawg right?
Yes, felton, sorry for any confusion. I’m on board with you…gamblers should cover the cost of their gambling and the fallout. What a novel idea!
Of course if we did this with autos and gas, Pea would totally pop his cork. All those adventures to secure the oil-rich middle east, added healthcare from the heart attacks and smog…..oh, man, the screams would shatter glass.
Remember, it’s only freeloading when someone else is doing it. It’s the Republican way.
md
November 2nd, 2011
10:16 am
“What other solution is there to traffic other than mass transit?”
Enough folks get tired of it they move??
The commute is a choice…..although some here can’t see that. They choose to make lots of excuses instead…..one is king…..hands down.
Jefferson
November 2nd, 2011
10:16 am
Another GOP idea that is bad and like their policies continue to cause problems. Too much was paid for the roads we get due to the pro business climate and big rigging.
Joe Hussein Mama
November 2nd, 2011
10:16 am
Mike — “Why do liberals hate business, rich people, wall-street, etc??”
Why do conservatives make stuff up?
Ross
November 2nd, 2011
10:16 am
So, let’s say I am going from Atlanta to 316 on 85. I want to use the hot lane, which is moving, but I need to get off at 316. However, traffic is backed up. How the hell am I supposed to get from the hot lane to the 316 exit without backing up the hot lane trying to get over.
USinUK
November 2nd, 2011
10:17 am
“Why do liberals hate business, rich people, wall-street, etc??”
oy.
just when you think the stoopit can’t get stoopiter … along comes this
WOODSTOCK MIKE
November 2nd, 2011
10:17 am
Liberals remind me of the kids in high school who weren’t good athletes, weren’t very good looking, and hated all the jocks and hated all the popular kids. Man, just accept yourself and be happy, not everyone is good looking, or rich, or a great athlete, it’s ok…
Sure is Amazing
November 2nd, 2011
10:17 am
Jm
November 2nd, 2011
8:28 am
He’ll. The Obama FDOT is looking at tolling the whole national interstate system. Fact.
Guess we’ve found another point of disagreement between Jay and Obama.
NOT FACT. What are your sources? You should be excited about this outcome though (if it is true) as you made your CON bed, now lie in it. You want to keep cutting government, as if it is getting less and less expensive to maintain our infrastructure. My momma always told me you pay for what you get!
Mark Pellegri
November 2nd, 2011
10:17 am
Atlanta suffers perpetual congestion even more than other cities of comparable size in from having “grown up with the automobile” and the corresponding over-reliance on primary traffic corridors. Some improvements can be gained from paying attention to recent studies on “anarchy” in traffic patterns and clues on how to reduce congestion without simply pushing more and more capacity or technology on the existing major roads. See the following briefs for synopsis:
http://theorymatters.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Visioning.PriceAnarchy
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=removing-roads-and-traffic-lights
WOODSTOCK MIKE
November 2nd, 2011
10:18 am
“just when you think the stoopit can’t get stoopiter … along comes this”
Ok genius, please tell me the ways that liberals like business, rich people, wall street, tell me some positive things liberals have to say?? Talk about stupid…
Peadawg
November 2nd, 2011
10:19 am
“Then why not pay gas taxes?” – B/c gas prizes are too high as it is. Did you miss when I said that?
“But how big of you to decide for everyone in the gambling group. ” – The other poster asked for a suggestion and I gave one. Not sure where your outrage is coming from.
“Tapping gamblers has worked out so well for the HOPE scholarship it now doesn’t cover full costs.” – If the CEOs or whatever they’re called that work for the lottery wouldn’t use funds to fatten their wallets and instead pay out the 35% to HOPE like was originally what it was supposed to do…HOPE may still paying full tuition for 4 years. CEO pay has gone up and the percentage lottery pays for HOPE has gone DOWN every year since it was created.
“Any other groups you’d like to speak for?” – I’m still wondering when/where I spoke for even ONE group. I’d didn’t know giving a tax suggestion was speaking for an entire group. Are you part of the “wealthy” group that you always suggest should pay higher taxes btw?
Seems like you keep digging and digging. I’d stop if I were you.
WOODSTOCK MIKE
November 2nd, 2011
10:19 am
See ya liberals, be careful with all that complaining and anger, it’s not healthy…
md
November 2nd, 2011
10:19 am
“this is a heads-I-win, tails-you-lose proposition – we can keep it as is and they stay off-shore or cut it and still not get the money”
Not exactly……leaving it offshore ensures one thing……we get nothing out of it……bring it back even at 0% and that capital is working in our system…….and will be producing accordingly…..interest rates will contribute if nothing else.
Peadawg
November 2nd, 2011
10:21 am
“Remember, it’s only freeloading when someone else is doing it. It’s the Republican way.” – Is that like asking the wealthy to pay more to fund entitlements for the poor and stimulus packages?? Or is that called something else?
Joe Hussein Mama
November 2nd, 2011
10:22 am
Mike — “Ok genius, please tell me the ways that liberals like business, rich people, wall street, tell me some positive things liberals have to say?? Talk about stupid…”
Try not making overarching generalizations, Mike. Liberals aren’t all alike any more than conservatives are.
Liberals like businesses like Ben & Jerry’s and Costco — that treat their employees well and still manage to turn a decent profit.
Liberals like rich folks like Warren Buffett and Bill Gates — who are generous with their wealth and who recognize that the tax system favors the rich and screws the middle class.
Is there anyone not working on Wall Street who *doesn’t* dislike Wall Street these days?
Try being more of a calm and temperate adult, and less of a hidebound ideologue who demonizes people with whom he doesn’t agree, and I think you’ll get the polite conversation you’re looking for.
Adam
November 2nd, 2011
10:23 am
Peadawg: If you feel so strongly about raising taxes on yourself, through online poker or what-have-you, why don’t you just cut a check? I’m sure the local government would like that, right?
Ross
November 2nd, 2011
10:23 am
So, let’s say I am going from Atlanta to 316 on 85. I want to use the hot lane, which is moving, but I need to get off at 316. However, traffic is backed up. How the hell am I supposed to get from the hot lane to the 316 exit without backing up the hot lane trying to get over.
Joe Hussein Mama
November 2nd, 2011
10:24 am
Mike — “See ya liberals, be careful with all that complaining and anger, it’s not healthy…”
I’ll tell the Tea Party and the health care town hall protestors that you left a message for them.
DebbieDoRight
November 2nd, 2011
10:24 am
If you don’t like Cain’s 9-9-9 plan…..
I’ve often wondered, exactly what IS Cain’s 9-9-9 plan and what’s it all about. Since Cain is failing to give appropriate, (concise or even INTELLIGENT responses), to questions asked pertaniing to his plan, I have come to my own conclusions.
9-9-9 Stands for:
The 9 women behind door #9 that Cain got freaky with on the 9th of May, 1999.
The 9 times Cain made sense since announcing his candidacy in 2009. (On the 9th of September).
The 9 men, in bathroom #9, that Cain accidentaly toched with his “wide stance”; that threatened to kick his azz all the way to Highway 9 and back.
kayaker 71
November 2nd, 2011
10:24 am
USinUK,
Congress could change the tax code anytime they want. Our present tax code has gazillions of pages of loopholes, dodges and imperfect language which allows business and others to pay less. I am not sure, but I would venture to say that you have never volunteered to pay more in taxes than the tax code demands. What makes you think that business is any different?
deegee
November 2nd, 2011
10:25 am
It would be easy to counter Woodstock Mike by saying that all conservatives are as superficial as he is, but that would be wrong.
Peter
November 2nd, 2011
10:25 am
Hey WOODSTOCK MIKE. Why don’t you answer the question ?
How do we pay for the Bush Wars ?
Mike
November 2nd, 2011
10:25 am
Jay, you say the lanes were carved out of existing interstate. True in a sense, but from existing interstate that was already reserved for multi-occupant vehicles, 24 hours a day. So solo drivers never could use those lanes anyway.
I have some difficulty believing there were so many 2-person carpools affected by this, or 3-plus carpools whose drivers haven’t figured out that if they just go get a peachpass, they can continue to use the lane for free. So where is all of this “extra” traffic coming from?
I suspect this is just another opportunity to complain that people who have a little more disposable income are getting an “unfair” advantage.
Adam
November 2nd, 2011
10:25 am
md: So when you say sarcastically in response to “sex envy” that people love STDs, I am supposed to be able to conclude that you are a reasonable person who does not think any of the things I sarcastically posted in response to you?
Joe Hussein Mama
November 2nd, 2011
10:25 am
Ross — “How the hell am I supposed to get from the hot lane to the 316 exit without backing up the hot lane trying to get over.”
I am sure that our conservative friends will come up with a market-based solution to solve your problem. Just give them 10-15 years to come up with it, plan it, get it funded and then implement it. By sometime in the 20s, you should be sailing along on the commute without a care in the world.
USinUK
November 2nd, 2011
10:25 am
mike – criticizing the system – particularly when the system allows investment banks to GAME said system – isn’t hate.
I like business – have worked for the big, the small and the in-between (heck, even had my own for a while) – what I DON’T like is the way that CEOs are remunerated at exhorbitant – exhorbitant? try outrageous – rates while the workers receive crumbs from the table, if they receive anything other than a pink slip. I think it’s immoral that these people are treated as “producers” while the workers are treated worse than rent-a-mules.
lastly, what I DON’T like is the environment for public companies which 1) makes them “keep up with the Joneses” – if their competitors are outsourcing, they had damned well better be outsourcing, too, or they’ll get dinged, or move away from their core competancies because some dickhead analyst says he should. and 2) makes they lay off their workers because they made 12% profit instead of 14% as expected. it’s not right – and it’s destroying this country.
that’s not hating the rich, business OR wall street, but the MASSIVELY effed-up system we’re operating in.
Peadawg
November 2nd, 2011
10:26 am
DebbieDoRight
November 2nd, 2011
10:24 am
That’s funny. I don’t care who you are.
El Oko Chon
November 2nd, 2011
10:27 am
@ Armed Liberal, Im on it!….patent pending
USinUK
November 2nd, 2011
10:27 am
“. I am not sure, but I would venture to say that you have never volunteered to pay more in taxes than the tax code demands”
this old canard.
no one can pay what they don’t owe. you can’t do it with SS. you can’t do it with taxes.
nice try, but soooooooooooooo incredibly lame.
Adam
November 2nd, 2011
10:29 am
USinUK: lastly, what I DON’T like is the environment for public companies which 1) makes them “keep up with the Joneses”
You mean how all the other banks publicly said they were going to start charging $5 fees for debit cards until BoA backed off?
Paul
November 2nd, 2011
10:29 am
Joe Hussein – USinUK
Woodstock’s been told, many times, people are upset because they bailed out banks and financial corporations for the results of their bad decisions, then those same people lost jobs and houses and retirement savings from the results of those bad decisions…. then the people who made the bad decisions paid no penalty, suffered no repercussions (unlike the people who bailed them out) and they got millions in bonuses.
Woodstock understands this.
I think he just can’t help himself.
Joe Hussein Mama
November 2nd, 2011
10:32 am
Paul — “then the people who made the bad decisions paid no penalty, suffered no repercussions (unlike the people who bailed them out) and they got millions in bonuses.”
I make it a practice not to wish misfortune on anyone or celebrate when harm or death comes to anyone, but if Ken Lewis (former CEO of BofA) were to fall down some stairs and break his fool neck, I’d have a hard time squeezing out a single tear for him.
I wonder if Mike can relate to that at all.
Normal
November 2nd, 2011
10:33 am
When Woodstock Mike comes in, it reminds me of a drive by shooting by a blind man…noisy, but no real damage…bless him.
DebbieDoRight
November 2nd, 2011
10:35 am
Top of the morning to you PDawg!!
Adam: You mean how all the other banks publicly said they were going to start charging $5 fees for debit cards until BoA backed off?
That’s why I advocate Credit Unions — less fees, nonsense, and compulsive greediness.
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
November 2nd, 2011
10:37 am
Well, I drive a Ford F-450 and it’s got running boards but it ain’t diesel and I don’t leave it running when I get out. Not with gas at 3.50 a gallon. Because it only gets 7 mpg. And I don’t like this slam on pickup drivers.
kayaker 71
November 2nd, 2011
10:37 am
USinUK,
You seem to think that business owes you a job, even in rough financial times. Business doesn’t owe you a damn thing. This old crap about “business should get off of all that money that they are sitting one and hire” is just that…. crap. They hire based on the demand for their products, or lack of it. Do you have a 401K? During boom times, business gets a pass from most liberals because their stocks are going up and they are benefiting from all that business does for them. Life is good. Then a downturn occurs and business is all of sudden evil, selfish and self-centered. I’m sure you didn’t say that when Microsoft was doubling every 6mos and your 401K was soaring. No one protests when you are getting healed.
Aquagirl
November 2nd, 2011
10:38 am
“Then why not pay gas taxes?” – B/c gas prizes are too high as it is. Did you miss when I said that?
No, I’m wondering why you think roads are affordable if you shift the costs elsewhere. And why you think you’re the one to decide gas taxes are “too high,” and we should subsidize them MORE so we can incur even more debt. I have no problem with the cost of gas, it sounds like you have a personal responsibility problem.
It’s wonderful to live in con land, where your unaffordable lifestyle is ok, it’s everyone else that’s the problem.
But keep dodging, Pea, we’re just filling time until ‘ol Herman digs himself even deeper and we get fresh sheets.
AmVet - Read my lips. No new hidden taxes.
November 2nd, 2011
10:38 am
Normal, your 10:33 is hysterical!
And apropos.
How tea party could drive GOP to disaster
For three years, Republican activists have lived in a fantasy world in which fringe characters like Sarah Palin and Herman Cain somehow “speak for the common sense of the common people.” It seems incredible that anybody could believe such a thing. It seems crazy that anyone would actually need a presidential election to disabuse them of such notions. But as Benjamin Franklin said: “Experience is a hard teacher, but fools will have no other.”
http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/31/opinion/frum-republican-tea-party-scenarios/index.html?hpt=hp_bn9
Adam
November 2nd, 2011
10:38 am
DDR: I am personally glad a lot of people agree with you and are still moving forward to move their money on Nov 5. We have OWS to thank for getting BoA, and then the other banks later, to back off on the $5 fee. Now we just need to be just as outraged every time they try a new scheme to make money off of the 99%.
godless heathen
November 2nd, 2011
10:43 am
“We have OWS to thank for getting BoA, and then the other banks later, to back off on the $5 fee. ”
Not intended to be a factual statement.
Hawk
November 2nd, 2011
10:43 am
This whole mess can be can said in one word ” Greed “.There are no republicans or democrates just green(money)men.Everything is done to make a profit.If a error in judgement is made the working man pays for the mistake.If people would use their common sense you can see what`s going on.They count on your igorance…must people in this world are sheep. They want to be led and told what to do,because thinking and reasoning is to hard.It`s easier to let someone do it for you.Remember these people at the top care nothing for you,even when they say they do. We are fodder for them. Think for yourself and be a individual!!
Joe Hussein Mama
November 2nd, 2011
10:44 am
K71 — “During boom times, business gets a pass from most liberals”
Not intended to be a true statement.
kayaker 71
November 2nd, 2011
10:44 am
Adam,
Those scruffy people who are protesting has nothing to do with BOA dropping their debit card fee. It was BOA customers who threatened to move their accounts if the fee was not dropped. The protest was loud but had nothing to with the WSPs.
stands for decibels
November 2nd, 2011
10:44 am
Doom said pretty much the same things you’re saying when we called him out on his ‘example.’
Joe Mama, rhetorical naughtiness on my part duly noted, but–
I don’t really need to chart how power-to-weight ratios have increased across the board, nor do I really need to go into how much the automakers rely on profits from
suckerscustomers who opt for absurdly large conveyances with mpg ratings, to make the overall point that Americans, generally, don’t seem to find gasoline prices really all that burdensome, do I?(And by typing that, I fully acknowledge that increasing gas taxes will affect the working poor, and I don’t recommend increasing them to a level they need to be all at once; it’d have to be phased in gradually. But it needs to happen.)
Joe Hussein Mama
November 2nd, 2011
10:44 am
Meeting; back later.
getalife
November 2nd, 2011
10:45 am
perry was not drunk.
He took Ativan.
It makes you feel really good and happy
Peter
November 2nd, 2011
10:45 am
Paul.
WOODSTOCK MIKE is a talking head for the right…… he is unable to justify the spending of the Bush Wars, and is unable as all Republican’s are at a solution for the War debt.
Peadawg
November 2nd, 2011
10:45 am
“It’s wonderful to live in con land, where your unaffordable lifestyle is ok, it’s everyone else that’s the problem.” – I don’t live there so I wouldn’t know.
“And why you think you’re the one to decide gas taxes are “too high,” ” – Again, where’s all this hate/outrage/anger coming from? This is a blog where we all have opinions. I’m not the one deciding anything.
Funny how you only picked that one line to respond to btw……
Rich Dude
November 2nd, 2011
10:46 am
Jay,
You are right. But that’s OK, Us uppity folks should have our own lane, our time is worth more than the lower class folks. Get used to it.
Normal
November 2nd, 2011
10:46 am
getalife
November 2nd, 2011
10:45 am
OMG…he’s a drug addict!!!
Bruno
November 2nd, 2011
10:46 am
We have OWS to thank for getting BoA, and then the other banks later, to back off on the $5 fee.
How is that, Adam?? The banks retracted the fees due to customer complaints. Good old fashioned capitalistic competition is what got the fees dropped, not the rantings of a bunch of malcontents who couldn’t think their way out of a paper bag.
BTW, getting to the “truth” about OWS protesters:
http://news.yahoo.com/nyc-arrest-records-many-occupy-wall-street-protesters-045625415.html
From the article:
“Among addresses for which information is available, single-family homes listed on those police intake forms have a median value of $305,000 — a far higher number than the $185,400 median value of owner-occupied housing units in the United States.”
Were you one of the rubes who fell for this crap??
Peadawg
November 2nd, 2011
10:47 am
“We have OWS to thank for getting BoA, and then the other banks later, to back off on the $5 fee. ” – I wouldn’t go that far but they probably didn’t hurt. I’d say it was just like w/ Netflix…people were starting to go elsewhere so the Banks/Netflix backtracked.
Joe Hussein Mama
November 2nd, 2011
10:47 am
Stands — I respect your position and agree with it in large part, but oblique support aside, you really didn’t have any hard examples to support your anecdote, and that’s what I’m speaking to.
Respectfully, if it’s wrong when cons do it, then it should be wrong when we do it, too. Let’s strive to be the better party in that argument, hmm?
godless heathen
November 2nd, 2011
10:47 am
Stands, I agree with you on the waste of horsepower, but it’s a free country (sortta). Just try telling Americans they can’t have 300+ horsepower and who _needs_ a car that will go more than 70 mph? An argument that I like to use in the gun control discussions when someone says, “Who needs a gun that will hold 30 rounds?” Well, who needs a car that can go 120 mph?
Joe Hussein Mama
November 2nd, 2011
10:47 am
Okay, meeting for real now. Back later.
md
November 2nd, 2011
10:48 am
“md: So when you say sarcastically in response to “sex envy” that people love STDs, I am supposed to be able to conclude that you are a reasonable person who does not think any of the things I sarcastically posted in response to you?”
First off, you have 50/50 odds that I said it “sarcastically” (I did)………second…..don’t recall ever saying people “love” std’s (more conjecture on your part).
The point…….you have this odd habit of assuming vs asking what folks mean……and then post long winded diatribes.
How about posting your thoughts and let others post theirs……
Normal
November 2nd, 2011
10:48 am
I think we should pay the same amount for gas as the Europeans…sure would make my 59mpg motorcycle more valuable…
getalife
November 2nd, 2011
10:48 am
Normal,
Probably.
I was a nervous wreck before open heart surgery.
This nurse took one look at me and came back with a shot of Ativan.
Yes, I was perry in the operating room
Soothsayer
November 2nd, 2011
10:49 am
New Libyan “PM” is Big-Oil Goon. Rebels Turn Guns on each other Turning Tripoli into a War Zone
November 2, 2011 – Associated Press recently reported that Libya’s rebel militants have named a new “prime minister” this week. AP depicts the latest unelected Western proxy, Abdurrahim el-Keib, as a progressive academic who has spent decades in the United States teaching at Alabama University and leading the local Muslim community. Mentioned briefly as a “former employer,” however, is the Petroleum Institute, based in Abu Dhabi, Dubai and sponsored by British Petroleum (BP), Shell, France’s Total, the Japan Oil Development Company, and the Abu Dhabi National Oil Company. El-Keib is listed as a “Professor and Chairman” in his Petroleum Institute profile which also describes extensive research conducted by him sponsored by various US government agencies and departments over the years.
And so begins the farce that is Western “democracy.” One corporate-fascist puppet, Mustafa Abdul-Jalil, steps down, another, Abdurrahim el-Keib, takes his place. In reality, it is NATO-states and their corporate sponsors that now determine Libya’s fate.
In essence, el-Keib, like his predecessor Jalil, is Libyan in name only and has been working for Western corporations, governments, and institutions for decades. Like Jalil, or Egypt’s Mohammed ElBaradei, el-Keib is yet another agent of Western interests masquerading as an indigenous leader in a foreign land. That his rise to power was paved by thousands of NATO strike sorties in a 7 month military operation spearheaded by the United States and at the cost of tens of thousands of Libyan civilians makes his ascension to power in Libya ever more a desecration of Libya’s sovereignty.
Now, who could have seen this coming?
stands for decibels
November 2nd, 2011
10:50 am
conveyances with mpg ratings
oops. shoulda added a “cruddy” in there.
Finn McCool
November 2nd, 2011
10:51 am
off topic:
More striking, though, is Hannity’s refusal to grapple with a very basic question: Why would the “liberal media” be so intent on taking out Cain when his nomination would actually be the best thing that could happen to Democrats’ hopes of retaining the White House next year? Even Republicans seem to understand that Cain would be a general election disaster; it’s why he’s still racked up no high-profile endorsements from party leaders, even though he’s near the top in polls and the first primary season contests are two months away. If anyone has an obvious incentive to cut Cain down to size, they’re on the GOP side. This is why Mike Huckabee, Hannity’s fellow Fox News host, said on Monday that he’d “almost guarantee” the story was given to Politico by a Republican.
None of this came up on “Hannity,” though, and instead viewers were told a familiar, comfortable tale about the big, bad liberal media and its contempt for conservatives, especially those with dark skin. In a way, there’s nothing surprising about this. As Bill O’Reilly, of all people, pointed out a few months ago, Hannity’s is “a Republican show” — one that stands out even on Fox for its eagerness to cheer for all Republicans not named Ron Paul and to condemn every Democrat not named Zell Miller. It’s also tempting to paint a scenario in which Hannity’s efforts blow up in his face — that, say, millions of conservatives now rally to Cain and propel him to the nomination, setting the stage for an Obama landslide next fall. But then, that outcome would be just be the ultimate demonstration of the media’s commitment to destroying black conservatives, wouldn’t it?
http://www.salon.com/2011/11/01/sean_hannity_will_make_herman_cain_the_victim_of_a_liberal_smear_no_matter_what/