Getting to the truth about HOT-lane operations
The Georgia Public Policy Foundation, an Atlanta-based free-market think tank, wields a lot of influence with the state’s conservative leadership. The foundation has also been a leading advocate of public and private toll-road projects, including the controversial I-85 HOT-lane conversion.
In an article headlined “State must ensure Georgians warm up to HOT lanes,” GPPF vice president Benita Dodd pleads for patience from commuters and politicians alike, saying it’s much too early to proclaim the I-85 project a failure. In other cities, she points out, it took some time before motorists got used to the idea and began to use HOT lanes regularly.
Her point is valid. When Ga. 400 first opened, Atlanta media outlets, including this newspaper, ran a lot of stories pointing out that very few people were using the highway. That situation changed pretty quickly as commuters changed their travel patterns.
To bolster public patience, Dodd cites the example of State Route 91 in southern California. After HOT lanes opened on that highly congested route, Dodd writes, toll-paying commuters not only saved 30 minutes on a 10-mile trip, “Rush-hour speeds in the regular lanes increased by 17 mph and peak-period congestion in the morning was reduced by over an hour.”
That does sound highly encouraging — a 17-mph increase in the general lanes! Unfortunately, it has not exactly been the experience of commuters in the I-85 corridor, where motorists in the regular lanes complain that commutes have gotten considerably longer. Why has our experience been so different?
Well, here in Georgia, the two new HOT lanes — one in each direction — were carved out of existing interstate, pushing traffic into the remaining lanes. In California, traffic flow improved because four additional travel lanes — two in each direction — were built in the median of SR 91 as HOT lanes. In other words, significant new capacity — not HOT-lane technology — accounted for the improvement cited by Dodd. (By the way, that improvement proved temporary, largely disappearing as additional traffic was drawn by that additional capacity.)
GPPF has also tried to dispel the notion of HOT lanes as “Lexus lanes,” which it defines as “an elitist way to enable wealthier, paying motorists to bypass the congestion that the unwashed masses must endure.” Again citing California’s experience, GPPF claims that HOT-lane users on SR 91 were no different demographically than those using regular lanes.
The Reason Foundation, the libertarian think tank that has championed HOT lanes on the national level, makes similar claims, arguing that “studies of the 91 Express Lanes indicate that use increases slightly with income group.” However, the studies cited by Reason and GPPF directly contradict what they claim.
According to those studies, commuters with incomes above $100,000 were more than twice as likely to use the toll lanes frequently than those making less than $60,000. That is not a “slight increase” among income groups. The studies also found that as fares rose higher and higher, usage by middle-income commuters dropped significantly.
“The significant decline in reported toll lane use by commuters in the $40-60K category suggests that these middle-income commuters have been unusually sensitive to the toll increases, and are less willing to pay tolls despite the worsening traffic congestion in the corridor,” the study concluded.
That trend could be important to travelers in the I-85 corridor as that project matures, usage increases and tolls are raised to fend off congestion. (Today, the highest toll collected on SR 91 is $9.85 for the 10-mile trip, more than double the highest fare of 10 years ago.)
Interestingly, that study, led by Edward Sullivan of Cal Poly State University, also found that SR 91 commuters consistently overestimate how much time they save by using the toll lanes, overshooting the mark by anywhere from five to 30 minutes a trip.
“It suggests that making available accurate data on actual toll lane time savings might result in reduced toll lane use,” the writers warn. In other words, it’s not the deal it may appear to be, although you may already know that.
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383 comments Add your comment
Paul
November 2nd, 2011
8:58 am
“elected to be adopted by an engineer”
Whew! You lucked out, USinUK. I understand that could have been genetic….
Derek
November 2nd, 2011
8:58 am
We’re all idiots, roads are already paid for by gas taxes, when tolls are enacted, ie GA 400, they never go away as promised, same for taxes. enforcing slower traffic and trucks stay right will work miracles
JDW
November 2nd, 2011
8:58 am
OPPS sorry Jay…you aren’t Kyle
markey mark
November 2nd, 2011
8:58 am
I’m with Jeff H…..my taxes already paid for the damn lanes, how dare they attempt to charge me again? At least now I live up 75….when they do those hot lanes (by the way, I disagree with the concept) they are at least adding lanes, last I heard. But as someone who wants govt to get OUT of many things, this is one of those things I want govt to pay for. This is the type of project I do not believe should be built and run privately. Does this mean the contract will prevent 41 from ever being worked on because it is in “competition” with I-75? Thats the way I read it…..pure rediculousness. In 20 years, when the toll road owners want to triple fees, the populace will howl for a buyout. And then the *&^&*% roads will cost us more to take back over than it would have to build them in the first place…..
loy
November 2nd, 2011
8:59 am
You don’t need to be a traffic engineer to have traffic move smoothl Dont try an fix something that was not broken. Ask truck drivers how many curves they run up on making at turn. No ask the engineer.
DebbieDoRight
November 2nd, 2011
8:59 am
Hot Lanes? Hot damn!
Nothing else to say since I never use them. Sorry.
stands for decibels
November 2nd, 2011
8:59 am
HOT lanes are great!
…if you’re a spineless politician too chicken to raise your constituents’ fuel taxes to what they ought to be.
(which is another way of typing “Like Brosephus said @ 8.15″, more or less.)
Rabbit
November 2nd, 2011
8:59 am
More lanes = more traffic. The agonizing truth is the people in charge know this. Their interest is in diverting money to special interests through ridiculous privatization of government.
If the backward MARTA decision by Gwinnett and Cobb in the 70s had been different, Atlanta would be one of the most vibrant cities in the world — rather than a region facing the harshest reality of declining property values and persistent joblessness.
But the donors are doing fine.
USinUK
November 2nd, 2011
9:00 am
well, we know what kind of Envy Scout is having with his 8:54
Felton McMichael
November 2nd, 2011
9:00 am
@ Grits 8:55 – nope they didn’t “squeeze” money out of me. i chose to give the tolling authority a modest amount of my money and in return I was able to get to my destination 30 minutes faster.
USinUK
November 2nd, 2011
9:01 am
Paul – 8:58 – anyone who has ever watched me play Tiki Tower on my iPhone would know that NONE of my dad’s engineering skills have rubbed off on me.
NONE.
USinUK
November 2nd, 2011
9:02 am
Rabbit – 8:59 – TESTIFY!
stands for decibels
November 2nd, 2011
9:02 am
Some people in the Occupy movement are *GASP* HAVING SEX!
Sex envy. As is so often the case, I think we’re at the root of right wing anger here.
Shawny
November 2nd, 2011
9:02 am
Without increasing throughput or reducing the number of cars, the overall system traffic will not be better.
Comparisons to systems where lanes were ADDED is not valid.
The HOT lane conversion is a revenue generating scam and nothing more, even by my moderate to conservative math.
MountainMan
November 2nd, 2011
9:03 am
I read that one of the main purposes of this project was to improve the drive time for express buses. If you could cut the time on the bus more people would ride. The HOV-2 lanes became too crowded and the buses were slowed down. It has been proven in other cities that HOV-3 lanes are underutilized. Essentially by converting the HOV-2 to HOV-3 and throwing in a few HOT lane cars you moved the buses at full speed and a few other cars got to use the lanes. It doesn’t take a traffic engineer to realize that if you throw the HOV-2 traffic over into regular lanes that those lanes are going to be slower. The solution is to jump on the bus.
Matt
November 2nd, 2011
9:03 am
The government needs revenue, its that simple. They will get it in the least pollitically destructive manner. Income taxes, like it or not, is the most convenient way to collect taxes. Blame republicans for the “creative solution” of a hot lane. The added travel time means you still pay more in gas whether you use the hot lane or not. And EVERYONE gets to spend more time on surface streets. Has anyone experienced the new nightmare that is Jimmy Carter Blvd at 5pm?
Jay
November 2nd, 2011
9:03 am
Markey Mark writes, regarding privately owned toll roads in Georgia:
In 20 years, when the toll road owners want to triple fees, the populace will howl for a buyout. And then the *&^&*% roads will cost us more to take back over than it would have to build them in the first place…..
That’s exactly the scenario that played out in California. SR 91 was built as a privately funded and operated toll facility, and opened in 1995. The noncompete clause that SR 91 operators negotiated with California allowed them to block construction of additional transportation infrastructure in that corridor. Public outrage at that provision forced local officials to buy out the private operators.
A 10-mile road built for $135 million in 1995 was sold to the public for $207 million in 2003.
DebbieDoRight
November 2nd, 2011
9:03 am
A volunteer at the park admitted concern among protesters about STDs.”
Numbers – Only repubs have STD’s (Stupidity Towards Decision making). Sorry.
Brosephus
November 2nd, 2011
9:04 am
Felton McMichael
I think the HOT lanes are a complete waste of time. The TSPLOST, as currently drawn up, is an equal waste of time. Paving a road in Smyrna and widening a road in Decatur does absolutely nothing for the overall congestion of the Metro Area. If politicians were serious, the most viable option for reducing congestion throughout the entire metro area would be to install heavy rail that’s capable of moving loads of people from the suburbs to the city center at speeds that can compete with driving.
http://www.bombardier.com/en/transportation/products-services/rail-vehicles/metros/new-york-city–usa?docID=0901260d8000f8c8#
Bombardier has developed a train for NYC that maxes out at 66mph. If Atlanta designed a layout that covered the major traffic corridors and extended around 20 miles outside of 285, they could use a heavy rail system to bring commuters in and out of the city and alleviate many of the single car commuters. You could go with one station every 5 miles or so and give counties the option to develop their own bus system to tie into the rail to provide even more flexibility to the system.
All it takes is thinking beyond the soundbite spectrum to come up with serious and viable alternatives.
md
November 2nd, 2011
9:04 am
“Sex envy.”
yeh, std’s are great fun…….everyone should try them at least once in their life…….
Felton McMichael
November 2nd, 2011
9:04 am
@ Derek 8:58 “enforcing slower traffic and trucks stay right will work miracles” – you’re probably right, but how will you enforce this? More troopers? How many more would you have to hire to be “hall monitors” in order for this tactic to be effective? Troopers cost money, and if I understand your objection it’s that you don’t like to pay money for things.
Adam
November 2nd, 2011
9:04 am
Jm: I guess I should have been clear from the beginning that I have nothing to say on the topic of HOT lanes, just on nonsense I see used as evidence. Like claiming people are too stupid to understand because they are not some profession that the person who makes the claim is ALSO not. Or that the choices about cars and living environments mean that you are personally responsible for any local legal and municipal actions.
Stevie Ray
November 2nd, 2011
9:05 am
Yeah, these tolls will help resolve traffic problems…..just like the toll on 400 will be discontinued…
I’ve been in metro area off and on since the 60’s. One only has to look at the most congested areas (for example Perimeter Mall where only the highest density real estate projects are allowed despite no ability to widen roads as a result) to note that this town was never in a position to have meaningful planning until projects such as Northpoint and a few others at least 15-20 miles outside the loop learned in the early 2000’s that such planning was of benefit to future tenants.
Paul
November 2nd, 2011
9:05 am
USinUK 9:01
As I said, you really, really, really, really lucked out!
Peadawg
November 2nd, 2011
9:05 am
“…if you’re a spineless politician too chicken to raise your constituents’ fuel taxes to what they ought to be.” – Gas prices are high enough. Find something else to tax.
godless heathen
November 2nd, 2011
9:06 am
Markey Mark? Isn’t he a rapper?
Corey
November 2nd, 2011
9:06 am
No Jay, jm is your usual, professional, blind party loyalist who will only say its good because Republicans are behind it. Facts, figures and concrete evidence be damned.
Truth Seeker
November 2nd, 2011
9:07 am
Jay,
You forgot to blame George Bush for this problem.
Adam
November 2nd, 2011
9:07 am
md: yeh, std’s are great fun…….everyone should try them at least once in their life…….
Because we all know that everyone who has sex gets STDs, and anyone who goes to get tested will come back with a positive result. Oh, and you wouldn’t bother to get tested if you used protection, because that’s always 100% effective against STDs. No, everyone who went to get tested had reason to believe that they had STDs because they had sex, it was definitely unprotected, etc etc. DIRTY HIPPIES!
OR, you could acknowledge that some people just go get tested because it’s the responsible thing to do whether you are “responsible” in how you have sex or not.
USinUK
November 2nd, 2011
9:08 am
Paul – 9:05 – just don’t ask me to put up shelves for you!
md – 9:04 – not so much the TD part, but the S part, definitely!!
USinUK
November 2nd, 2011
9:09 am
Adam – responsible people don’t have sex.
haven’t you heard?
stands for decibels
November 2nd, 2011
9:10 am
Gas prices are high enough.
They’ll be high enough the day I go to the local supermarket and I don’t see at least two a-holes sitting in their 3-ton SUVs, idling away on a 70-degree day so that they can run their… well, I’m not sure what their climate control is doing. All I know is that we Merkins obviously don’t think gas is really all that expensive, based on what I see people a) driving and b) doing with those things they drive.
Adam
November 2nd, 2011
9:10 am
USinUK: “Damned irresponsible dirty hippies! And they’re trying to steal my cookie! COOKIE ENVY!”
Makes about as much sense as the whining I hear about OWS in general, actually.
DebbieDoRight
November 2nd, 2011
9:11 am
Is that SoCoBro I see lurking around the blogs? Oh my! If I was an envious, evil, dastardly type of person, (which I’ not
); I would say something about how those Bamma Bam people area going to be part of a Creole feast on Saturday.
I’m thinking they’ll create a new dish for their repetoire – Elephant Gumbo, with a side of Elephant tail dirty rice.
Sounds yummy!
Felton McMichael
November 2nd, 2011
9:11 am
@ Brosephus – I’ll concede that the TSPLOST is not the perfect solution to the areas manifold traffic woes, but at least it’s a start to thinking regionally about the issue. I’d absolutely love for the type of transit you describe to come to Atlanta. Every time I visit DC or NYC, I wish that we could have something more than a fraction of what they have when it comes to transit. Heck, I’m even willing to pay (even more than I already do as a resident of DeKalb county) for it!
md
November 2nd, 2011
9:12 am
There you go again Adam………a diatribe coming from your head……..attributed to mine.
Merely stated std’s are great fun…….all that other malarkey is assumption on your part……quit it you silly person……..slow down and read what’s in front of you vs drawing so many conclusions.
Aquagirl
November 2nd, 2011
9:12 am
Gas prices are high enough. Find something else to tax.
They’re not high enough to cover road construction and maintenance, but I’m glad you’re honest about wanting taxpayer subsidies, Pea. You want a side of food stamps with that?
Don't Tread
November 2nd, 2011
9:14 am
Anyone who can work from home should be allowed to work from home. This would free up the roads for the people who do have to physically be present at their jobs.
Problem solved. (Well, except for those in management who feel the need to micromanage others.)
stands for decibels
November 2nd, 2011
9:15 am
Problem solved. (Well, except for those in management who feel the need to micromanage others.)
Two words: Predator drones.
CM from Alpharetta
November 2nd, 2011
9:15 am
No New Capacity = No Congestion Relief; enough said!
Stop comparing this “demonstration project” where lanes were stolen from the taxpaying public to projects in other states where additional capacity was added, to be paid for by a toll. If you want to charge for something then build something new; otherwise, get out of the taxpayers’ wallet.
BTW, the engineering is has been questioned by GDOT because there are not HOT lane exits.
My last thought and I hope I am wrong but I am worried there will be a bad accident one day when faster traffic from the HOT lane tries merge with the general lanes to exit. After all, traffic trying to merge when traveling at vastly different speeds is noted as something to avoid in engineering circles, is it not?
1811/0311
November 2nd, 2011
9:17 am
md:
I think they forgot the “Occuru**ers” !
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
November 2nd, 2011
9:17 am
Well, up here in Forsyth County we don’t have HOT lanes. We have fast lanes and faster lanes. I do hate it when another pickup is on the road at the same time as me, but I guess I can live with it.
I don’t know why anybody’s suprized by the HOT lanes. It’s the same old DOT. You pay for a lane once and then you get to pay for it again. Just like you paid tolls on GA 400 in Buckhead till the bonds was paid off and then you get to keep paying. If you trust guvmint you deserve what you get. And some of the fools will be voting for that penny sales tax so they can get bamboozled again. Guvmint lies. Politicans lie. That’s how they stay in office.
Have a good Wednesday everybody.
Talking Head
November 2nd, 2011
9:18 am
Atlanta traffic blows.
Worst design ever.
Felton McMichael
November 2nd, 2011
9:19 am
@Peadawg 9:05 “gas prices are high enough. Find something else to tax.” Let’s run through a little thought exercise here:
1. Do you think traffic the traffic situation in Atlanta is wasteful of time and resources?
2. Do you think we should build more roads to alleviate this congestion?
3. How do you propose we pay for these new roads?
Normal
November 2nd, 2011
9:19 am
The final solution with tolls…
http://scifi.icanhascheezburger.com/2011/11/01/sci-fi-fantasy-digital-art-an-at-at-in-chicago/
kayaker 71
November 2nd, 2011
9:19 am
According to the liberal hero of the day, Elizabeth Warren, the evil corporations should be paying for these roads so that the common man does not. Wonder what she would look like in green tights.
Peadawg
November 2nd, 2011
9:19 am
“but I’m glad you’re honest about wanting taxpayer subsidies, Pea. You want a side of food stamps with that?”
lol wut?
Stevie Ray
November 2nd, 2011
9:19 am
On another note, I’m organizing a campaign to bring congressional approval rating to 0% from current 8%. Anyone game?
Felton McMichael
November 2nd, 2011
9:20 am
@ Aquagirl 9:12 – Perfect!
Paul
November 2nd, 2011
9:21 am
sfd
“at least two a-holes sitting in their 3-ton SUVs, idling away on a 70-degree day so that they can run their…”
what I get a kick out of are these guys who buy Ford 250s or 350s or Dodge Ram 3500s who use them to drive to work or to the store, who get diesel options and leave them idling in the parking lot. Ask them why and they say ‘ummm, they’re diesels…. gotta…. big rigs do it…. not sure why…. big rigs….”
The psychological profile would take pages…..
Jim Pierce
November 2nd, 2011
9:21 am
HOT lanes are now for increased revenue… it has nothing to do anymore about aleviating traffic. They’ve taxed everything imagineable, and now are taxing the very roads the citizens have paid for.
AmVet - Read my lips. No new hidden taxes.
November 2nd, 2011
9:21 am
71, though you childishly misrepresent the woman, you’re not qualified to speak for her cat…
Stevie Ray
November 2nd, 2011
9:21 am
Talking Head,
What design are you referring to? Planning commissions did little to no planning, remaining solely interested in tax revenues during the Gwinnett boom of the 80’s thru late 90’s…
MARTA Rida
November 2nd, 2011
9:22 am
The HOT lanes will just expedite the process of Gwinnett County turning into a low-density wasteland. Should have approved MARTA decades ago then you all wouldn’t have the traffic woes? I enjoy my stress-free commute on MARTA!
kayaker 71
November 2nd, 2011
9:23 am
AmVet,
Sort of testy this morning?
Felton McMichael
November 2nd, 2011
9:24 am
@ Peadawg 9:19 – perhaps aquagirl should have typed more slowly. allow me to explain: earlier you said gas prices were too high and that they should find something else to tax to pay for roads. gas taxes are essentially a user tax in that the money is paid by those who use the product. if you want more/better roads but don’t want to pay for them and suggest that some other revenue be found to fund them, then you are asking somebody else to subsidize your behavior, in much the same way that a food stamp recipient is the beneficiary of someone else’s tax dollars.
USinUK
November 2nd, 2011
9:24 am
“According to the liberal hero of the day, Elizabeth Warren, the evil corporations should be paying for these roads so that the common man does not”
that’s not what she said at all, buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, nice try.
Talking Head
November 2nd, 2011
9:25 am
Stevie Ray,
The design of the input/ouput of interstate traffic, a self created bottleneck through downtown.
Peter
November 2nd, 2011
9:27 am
Jm don’t you live in Florida full time now ?
Peadawg
November 2nd, 2011
9:27 am
Felton McMichael
Did I say tax SOMEONE else? Nope, sure didn’t. Nice try though.
USinUK
November 2nd, 2011
9:27 am
http://babyboomeradvisorclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Elizabeth%20Warren%20speech.jpg
(what she ACTUALLY said)
Mr Sunshine
November 2nd, 2011
9:27 am
Marta? Uh No I dont think so.
Aquagirl
November 2nd, 2011
9:28 am
lol wut?
Since you’re playing dumb, Pea, I’ll spell it out:
1. Gas taxes do not fully fund our roads.
2. The government makes up the shortfall with money from other taxes
3. Apparently you aren’t happy with your current level of freeloading and want someone else to pay for even more of your stuff.
4.The fact you magically excuse yourself from the freeloader label doesn’t mean squat, other people are TAXED ENOUGH ALREADY to pay for your roads, maybe it’s time you pay for them yourself.
AmVet - Read my lips. No new hidden taxes.
November 2nd, 2011
9:29 am
Nope. I’m in a great mood.
So specifically, what is your beef with Ms. Warren?
zeke
November 2nd, 2011
9:30 am
HOV, HOT, whatever you call them are useless! Create more congestion and at the same time rape taxpayers!!!
Peadawg
November 2nd, 2011
9:31 am
Aquagirl – read my 9:27
Thanks.
JFP0
November 2nd, 2011
9:31 am
HOT Lanes have added an extra 25 minutes – each way – to my husband’s commute. Most weeknights he misses dinner with his daughter. Asking for our patience is just like our president asking us to ‘hang in there’ for the economy to improve. Wait til businesses start avoiding Atlanta. You’ll see an about-face pdq…. but us lowly citizens don’t have a voice. How does that work?
hewhoasks
November 2nd, 2011
9:31 am
Underlying this is the foundation illogic: everyone wants a car and nobody wants there to be traffic.
Felton McMichael
November 2nd, 2011
9:31 am
@ Peadawg – “Did I say tax SOMEONE else? Nope, sure didn’t. Nice try though.”
Ok. So WHAT will you tax and WHO will pay this tax?
kayaker 71
November 2nd, 2011
9:32 am
USinUK,
Mrs Warren is the original Robin Hood. In her ridiculous rant about how much additional taxes the corporations of this country should pay, just for the privilege of doing business in this hostile environment that Bozo has created, she overlooks the fact that corporations can do business anyplace they want. Just one more nail in the coffin of job creation. Just think how many more new jobs are going to be created by punishing business for making money. She is Bozo heavy, in the worst way.
stands for decibels
November 2nd, 2011
9:32 am
Paul, ya know what Ah luv?
Ah luv the extra-manly and vaguely Southwestern soundin’ guys they git to do the voice-overs for all of the big pickemup truck commercials. And Ah love the narrative of virtually every one of those ads, which is, if you don’t buy this *here* truck, if you buy the other comp’ny’s truck, why, you are a testicularly challenged wuss.
(I guess the Dennis Leary-voiced Ford ads are a slight departure from the norm, but only slight.)
Felton McMichael
November 2nd, 2011
9:33 am
@JFP0 9:31 – or he could start paying the $2 once in a while. or move closer to work. or take the bus. or carpool with 2 others. or work different hours.
USinUK
November 2nd, 2011
9:34 am
kayaker – “punishing businesses for making money” – sweet jeebus, do you hear the words that come out of you???
punishing businesses???
try making them pay their way, bub.
Techfan
November 2nd, 2011
9:34 am
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Reason_Foundation
Joe Hussein Mama
November 2nd, 2011
9:34 am
Normal — “I wonder how they will handle accidents in the hot lanes…shove the wreaks into the nonpaying lanes, probably…”
If HOT drivers have accidents in the HOT lanes, then as far as I’m concerned, the accident and subsequent investigation can just STAY in the HOT lanes.
It’s kinda like marriage. You made your bed, and if it turns out you made a bad choice, then you can just lie in it.
Joe Blow
November 2nd, 2011
9:35 am
Hot lanes, have cause nothing but troubles and continue to piss people off. My one hour drive home has turned in to an hour and 20 mins. Thats an extra hour 20 min a week, that I will never get back of my life.
Hot lanes you suck!!!
USinUK
November 2nd, 2011
9:35 am
dB – I love me some Dennis Leary
Aquagirl
November 2nd, 2011
9:35 am
Ok. So WHAT will you tax and WHO will pay this tax?
His coyness is not coincidence….Pea’s buying time while until his inevitable “whoops, can’t chat any more, gotta run and pay the freeloaders!”
Normal
November 2nd, 2011
9:36 am
What really has me surprised about the Hot Lane, is that they are not free to the upper class and tolls are not levied on the other lanes used by the rest of us. The GOP must be slipping…
godless heathen
November 2nd, 2011
9:36 am
stands: “at least two a-holes sitting in their 3-ton SUVs, idling away on a 70-degree day so that they can run their…
Well there you go with personal anecdotes. When someone reports being behind a woman in the grocery store buying caviar with an EBT card, aren’t you one of the ones that jumps all over the statement, ridiculing personal anecdotes as evidence?
Peadawg
November 2nd, 2011
9:36 am
“Ok. So WHAT will you tax and WHO will pay this tax?” – I don’t have to make that decision.
Ask the governor.
BTW, I’ve said many times on here about legalizing online poker and taxing the deposits and/or withdrawals. And Felton, that would certainly include me.
Peadawg
November 2nd, 2011
9:37 am
“whoops, can’t chat any more, gotta run and pay the freeloaders!”
You must be thinking of someone else. I don’t believe I’ve ever said that before.
joe
November 2nd, 2011
9:37 am
The name “Bookman” and the word “truth” rarely mesh…
AmVet - Read my lips. No new hidden taxes.
November 2nd, 2011
9:37 am
71, do you understand the meaning of the adjective specifically?
Try again.
But given your track record here, I suspect you are not capable.
Joe Hussein Mama
November 2nd, 2011
9:37 am
G. Heathen — “Well there you go with personal anecdotes. When someone reports being behind a woman in the grocery store buying caviar with an EBT card, aren’t you one of the ones that jumps all over the statement, ridiculing personal anecdotes as evidence?”
I hate to say it, Stands, but Heathen has got you here. Maybe you should consider revising your statement.
Aquagirl
November 2nd, 2011
9:38 am
It’s kinda like marriage. You made your bed, and if it turns out you made a bad choice, then you can just lie in it.
Unless you’re Kim Kardashian.
Ayn Rand's Medicare
November 2nd, 2011
9:39 am
god, they’re not even trying anymore
just monkeys slingin poo
it’s over cons; the jig is up. The People are on to you.
USinUK
November 2nd, 2011
9:42 am
Aquagirl – or Britney Spears or any of the other < 6 months crowd
(but, of course, the biggest threat to the sanctity of marriage comes from teh gheys)
Libertarian
November 2nd, 2011
9:42 am
I wish they would get rid of the HOT lanes so that I don’t have to read about them in the AJC anymore. Yawn.
Paul
November 2nd, 2011
9:43 am
sfd
Not much beats the sight of a big pickem-up with the step-on running boards on the side in a handicap spot, watching two women, each about 5ft 2 (tall and wide) climbing up into the front seats.
True story.
Felton McMichael
November 2nd, 2011
9:43 am
@ peadawg – 9:36. I’m not wild about taxing online poker to pay for roads but at least you’re willing to put something on the table. I’d prefer that the revenue derived from taxing an item/activity bear more than a tangential relationship out of a general sense of fairness as well as economic efficiency. I’m not a online poker player and I don’t think it’s fair that those who do should pay disproportionately for my roads. Also, it would eventually put government in the position of promoting an activity which is not entirely beneficial in order to fund a necessary public good.
wreckmaniac
November 2nd, 2011
9:44 am
If this lane can get me to Hartsfield in time to avoid missing a flight, I’m all for it and will gladly pay the price. I obtained the pass for that one reason alone.
Joe Hussein Mama
November 2nd, 2011
9:44 am
Aquagirl — “Unless you’re Kim Kardashian.”
KK isn’t the one who made the bad choice. It was that sports mook she conned into taking her down the aisle.
Normal
November 2nd, 2011
9:45 am
wreckmaniac
November 2nd, 2011
9:44 am
…or you could just leave the house earlier…
Did we get a say
November 2nd, 2011
9:46 am
I don’t have the best memory, but were we even allowed to vote on the approval of the HOT lanes. I have lived in Gwinnett my whole life and I don’t recall seeing that. Paying taxes and sitting through miserable traffic to get the HOV lanes were one thing. Paying more taxes and turning the lane I paid for into a profit center seems to me to warrant an investigation. I would like to know if Benita or any of her GPPF buddies live in Gwinnett County.
Eli Jones
November 2nd, 2011
9:47 am
Because of Eric Holder’s and Barack Obama’s gun running, US border agent Brian Terry and US immigration customs enforcement agent Jaime Zapata were killed by those guns. Also over two hundred of Mexico’s citizens have been slaughtered by Holder’s and Obama’s guns. Obama and Holder used 10 Million dollars of our tax money to finance their deadly Fast And Furious insanity.
…………………………………………………………
SIGN THE PETITION TO PROSECUTE ERIC HOLDER FOR “FAST AND FURIOUS” (and pass it on)
http://act.theteaparty.net/5273/prosecute-eric-holder/
USinUK
November 2nd, 2011
9:48 am
JHM – pleez. they’re BOTH going to be well-paid for this media debacle.
I mean, criminey, it’s even in the news HERE, fercryingoutloud.
Road to Victory
November 2nd, 2011
9:48 am
” though you childishly misrepresent the woman, you’re not qualified to speak for her cat”
And you are qualified?
Butch Cassidy
November 2nd, 2011
9:49 am
Paul – ” these guys who buy Ford 250s or 350s or Dodge Ram 3500s who use them to drive to work or to the store, who get diesel options and leave them idling in the parking lot”
Freely translated – You may not respect my penis, but you gotta respect my truck!
USinUK
November 2nd, 2011
9:49 am
aw, bless …
ya gotta love Eli and his daily post …