‘Occupy’ movement giving voice to legitimate fears
Instead of using police officers to oust protesters from Woodruff Park, Atlanta Mayor Kasim Reed has wisely decided to wait and see, hoping that the passage of time and the threat of sub-freezing temperatures will clear the park for him.
Maybe it will, but I’m doubtful. Critics of the Occupy movement claim that those involved are not representative of the American mainstream, and they’re right. People who camp for weeks on end as a form of political protest, and who risk or even force their own arrest by acts of civil disobedience, are by definition not mainstream. They are more extreme than the rest of us.
However, that doesn’t mean that they are divorced from mainstream thoughts or concerns. To the contrary, they’re a lot closer to tapping into what’s really happening in America than are the targets of their protests on Wall Street.
On a visit to the scene Tuesday afternoon, I saw a lot of signs quoting well-known outrageous radicals such as Sam Adams, Abraham Lincoln and Franklin Roosevelt. One woman with an audience of one was reading aloud from a piece of subversive literature, something about it being easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
Near the center of the encampment of some 70 tents, somebody had erected a section of unpainted wooden fence, with a sign asking “What’s your story?” The fence is full of authentic American stories scrawled on the wood with Magic Markers and Sharpies.
“I am 24 years old,” one person wrote. “I go to school and work full-time and get an average of four hours of sleep a night. I am hoping the degree I earn will help me pay off my $80,000 student loan. The outlook of this is dim. With every day that goes by more and more jobs in this country are lost. It seems most are going to other countries so corporations can make more money …. My mother’s house in Michigan was foreclosed on and she now lives with her mother in Tennessee. A 46-year old woman who has to live with her mom and has done nothing but work hard all her life.”
“All my life I’ve seen ‘immigrants’ being denied the right to receive scholarships to go to school and I’ve seen citizens being drowned in debt due to going to school,” another writes. “And once they finish, NO JOBS. So what’s the point anymore?”
“My son and granddaughter are unemployed,” someone else wrote, explaining that the bank stock that the family had owned was now worthless. “I am 70 and have no job or money. The banks *&#$ed everyone.”
As in other Occupy sites around the country, the vast majority of the participants are young people, and a recurring theme is anguish at the prospect of graduating from college with a heavy debt load and no jobs. The American Dream no longer seems realistic to many of them. In the Vietnam era, protests were dominated by young people who felt the threat of the draft most directly, and if that pattern is repeating itself, it’s for similar reasons. Among men ages 20-25, for example, the September unemployment rate was 15.8 percent, a number that badly underestimates the true scale of the problem, since many in that age group never had a chance to officially join the full-time workforce in the first place.
So yes, we can run off those protesters and take down that fence. But the problem is, it won’t make those stories go away. The people who are living those stories aren’t going away either. The sense of inequity in an economy in which millions are jobless and have lost their homes to foreclosure, while corporate profits are at record high, is not going to change unless the situation changes. Because for every story written on a wooden fence, there are several hundred thousand others in which the principal characters have so far suffered in silence.
The protesters are not the people we should turn to for answers or solutions, but that’s not their role. Their role is to give voice to a problem, and you have to believe that voice will get louder and louder.
– Jay Bookman
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607 comments Add your comment
Shawny
October 19th, 2011
12:40 pm
Yes, Ron Paul. Agreed.
Welcome to the occupation (Trotsky)
October 19th, 2011
12:42 pm
Shawny: “Listen to any of those kids that are interviewed on the news and it is very apparent that they do not know what makes the engine of the economy run. Greedy corporations = bad. All of them = held back by the MAN. It is not the responsibility of corporations to provide jobs”
Yes they do. They grow fat and wealthy traveling our public roads and using our public infrastructure and resources, which ALL of us pay for.
A system in which organizations scrape profit off the top and keep it all to themselves is one in which those organization will either change their ways or be put up on the proverbial scaffolds. Revolution will set them straight.
md
October 19th, 2011
12:43 pm
“A house, like an education, is a human need and on some level, a fundamental right. A just system will provide some protection from risk, or at least equitable risk management, for those goods.”
Wrong………shelter is a human need. Owning a house is a want, not a need. Same for education……..go to the library and learn all day for free…………….knowledge isn’t restricted to schools……….if one wants it, there are many ways to get it……your ideology is a bit skewed…..
Boris Badnoff
October 19th, 2011
12:45 pm
As John Edwards said before he was caught with his pants down, there are two Americas
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2050954/Occupy-Wall-Street-protesters-eat-like-kings–rats-drugs-threaten-Occupy-Oakland.html
Some of us have to work for a living and can’t go to the park to play Simon Says.
liberalefty
October 19th, 2011
12:48 pm
@boris
u mean like the PEA PARTY protesters who had time to protest?
Sux Limbow
October 19th, 2011
12:50 pm
Just a bunch of filthy damn hippies.
Donna P.
October 19th, 2011
12:52 pm
I do not identify with the Occupy Protesters by any means. I pay my bills, have health insurance through my husband’s job, we both have jobs (thank goodness), and we pay our mortgage even though our house is under water. I’m not complaining about any of it. I chose to have credit card debt, a car loan, and a mortgage. I chose it. If you didn’t want to be in debt, then don’t be in debt. No one forced you into a student loan, mortgage, etc. As far as medical bills, you can be on a payment plan. It may take the rest of your life but you can pay on it. Life is HARD for everyone even the rich; they have troubles on a much larger scale than most. The Federal Government has been throwing money at poor people since the 1960’s (food stamps, welfare, medical care, etc.) and there are still poor people in this country. I don’t know what the answer is but protesting the local parks and streets does nothing to solve this problem.
liberalefty
October 19th, 2011
12:55 pm
@donna
yeah rich folks like ROMNEY,BUFFET,GATES are suffering more than po folks
md
October 19th, 2011
12:57 pm
Good for you Donna……..one that “gets it”. Too bad so many others think the magic carpet ride should be the norm……………
ken
October 19th, 2011
12:57 pm
Don’t worry, hope and change is on the way.
liberalefty
October 19th, 2011
1:00 pm
@md
wasnt the tea party about complaining about the guvment too? lol
Charles
October 19th, 2011
1:02 pm
BOW is some heartless, spineless loser sitting behind a computer all day spewing hatred about things from the past. First, who in their right mind would use their full name on an open forum like this except a narcissist who wants to hear his voice even if only in print? I guess the eye holes in your sheet are pretty wide. You don’t seem to have any problem seeing out of them and typing the nonsense you do. In addition to writing on this board you obviously are seriously plugged into the hate-filled idiots who get paid millions to talk trash 2-3 hours a day. You’d have a stroke and die if someone said the same things you did about any of the former Repub presidents.
I’m doing pretty good for now. But I hear Granny’s story and it’s just a little too close for comfort. I think it is for a lot of people. Thank God there are people with strong bodies and minds; the fortitude and time to champion the cause of many. Those of us who have jobs are trying to hold on to them while trying not to beat the hell out of employers who tell us “we should be thankful we have a job–oh and don’t plan to go home on time tonight.”
Pat
October 19th, 2011
1:03 pm
@Donna. I am in the same boat as you and I completely agree with your statement @12:52.
liberalefty
October 19th, 2011
1:06 pm
@charles
i like how BOW emphasizes OBAMAS’ middle- name HUSSEIN, like we dont know his middle name,lol. thats one angry racist dude
SwedeAtlanta
October 19th, 2011
1:08 pm
I don’t understand posters such as Bill Orvis White that seethe with rage against those that are obviously not as well off as he is.
He broadly blames the plight of the less fortunate all on them, calling them lazy without knowing them or even being willing to listen to their stories.
There are absolutely people that are lazy and that will take a handout at every turn. But I suggest that is a minority of those that find themselves unemployed or under employed, foreclosed, carrying student loans, etc.
They want to work and be productive but they want a system that offers a level playing field, a system that is not stacked against them.
I have a niece that excelled in school and got a partial scholarship to a state university in her home state. She has always wanted to be a teacher and has taught Sunday school, helped ESL students, etc. She did very well druing her student teaching graduating with honors.
But there are no teaching jobs even though class sizes are increasing everywhere due to budget cuts. She graduated with about $20,000 in student loan debt despite having worked every summer during high school and college and being frugal with that money.
She can’t find a job in her field but still owes the $20K. She has pieced together two part-time jobs at little better than minimum wage and is living with her parents because she can’t afford to live on her own. She has strong sympathy for the Occupy Wall Street participants because she sees a system that isn’t working.
So, Bill Orvis White, is she lazy? Is she asking for a handout? No and how dare you suggest she is. She wants to work and contribute to our society in a meaningful way.
Bill and his ilk simply don’t understand what’s going on out there. Yes there will always be those that take and not give but I suggest the majority of the OWS crowd are not among those. They are simply asking for a system that is not stacked against them.
philosopher
October 19th, 2011
1:08 pm
“Hmm. I came out of college debt free. No one gave me any money to go to school. It was my choice so I got a job and worked through college to pay for my education while living on my own. These demonstrations are absolutely ridiculous.”
Exactly how far removed from PRESENT day reality must you INSIST on keeping yourself???? I graduated debt-free, too. But I’m awake and aware enough to SEE that it isn’t possible now unless your family has a whole hell of a lot of money. READ the stories, please…it is reality that THERE ARE NOT JOBS AVAILABLE-. Up to 15% are unemployed …fool yourself all you want but 15% of the population is NOT happy to be jobless. Count yourself lucky to have a job, smart alec…most of these folks were shocked and devastated when their jobs were taken away- YOU could be next. In fact, I hope a lot of you lose your jobs- never thought I’d feel that way but some of you could really, really use a little dose of reality!!
Pat
October 19th, 2011
1:11 pm
@SwedeAtlanta, if you niece wants to be a teacher, that has nothing to do with the corporations. It has something to do with the public school system in this country, (which is already in a mess because of the people that run it).
AmVet - Neo-cons, they're just bad people who enjoy the suffering of others.
October 19th, 2011
1:12 pm
I don’t know what the answer is but protesting the local parks and streets does nothing to solve this problem.</I.
And that is what the status quo forever arch-conservatives said about those 13 men and women riding on that first Freedom Ride.
And the thousands who later marched across that bridge in Selma.
And the hundreds of thousands who protested against the criminal war in Viet Nam.
Close your eyes and plug your ears to the injustice if that is your choice.
Just know that millions of fed up Americans are not gonna do so any longer.
And that terrifies the cowards and servile slaves who, like Herman Cain, tell us that the white collar criminals and banksters on Wall Street are completely blameless…
Goldie
October 19th, 2011
1:15 pm
Every “movement” has started somewhere in what may have seemed inconsequential at the time: sitting in protest at the Woolworth’s lunch counter, refusing to move to the back of a city bus, spinning cotton into fabric on a spinning wheel, camping in a park across from Wall St. banks, etc. Only more time and more “disobedience” will tell of the outcome and how consequential this one may become!
Pat
October 19th, 2011
1:16 pm
@philosopher, I hate to say this but there are jobs out there, just go to the want ads and look. Maybe people need to brush up on their skills to what these jobs wants. Maybe the people need to adapt to the jobs that are being offered instead of wanting the corporations to hire them without the skills they need for that job.
Goldie
October 19th, 2011
1:16 pm
yeaaa AmVet — ditto @ 1:12!
News of the Weird
October 19th, 2011
1:18 pm
Cain and Perry are brothers!
real john
October 19th, 2011
1:20 pm
AmVEt:
I don’t know what I’m protestor, it just seemed like a cool party…one day I marching against Troy Davis, the next against a cop beating up someone in NY; the banks; whatever, just what we feel like on that particular day.
If one of those “evil” bankers came and offered one of these deadbeats a 500k a year job; just watch how fast that sign would drop and how fast they would run to that..
This is a bunch of jealous, jerks who don’t have a clue. I listen to some of these people on T.V. and they are so clueless, its almost sad…
If the banks collapsed tomorrow, our whole economy would collapse. We weren’t that far away from that after Lehman Brothers.
Please don’t tell me your tax dollars bailed out these bankers. If you want to be technical about it China (who bought the debt we had to borrow) paid most of it, and the rest would be paid by your kids and grandkids. Taxes did not go up one cent after TARP. Also a little fun fact, the US actually MADE money off TARP. So yes, those evil banks have already paid the money back with interest. If only Obama’s stimulus package had worked nearly as well
Joe Mama
October 19th, 2011
1:20 pm
Pat — “@SwedeAtlanta, if you niece wants to be a teacher, that has nothing to do with the corporations.”
It absolutely has to do with the corporations. If they want the benefit of operating in our society, then they need to accept the obligation of paying for its operation and upkeep via taxes.
A corporation that ships its goods needs to pay for the upkeep of the roads and the oversight of air travel and air safety. A corporation that produces consumable goods for humans (e.g. foodstuffs, pharmaceuticals) needs to pay for the maintenance of bodies that inspect and ensure the safety of such products. And corporations that seek educated employees to fill their job openings needs to pay for the regulation and oversight of the educational system.
An advanced society like ours isn’t free. People and businesses made sacrifices so we could have the institutions and infrastructure we enjoy today. Those sacrifices don’t go away just because some people and some businesses don’t feel like making them.
News of the Weird
October 19th, 2011
1:21 pm
newt Leroy gingrich should promote his middle name to steal the “brother” vote from the brother’s, Cain and Perry.
SwedeAtlanta
October 19th, 2011
1:22 pm
Re Pat @ 1:11
No, the reason she doesn’t have a job is because states and cutting funding to public education due to the economic meltdown. Tax revenues have dropped as people lose their jobs and their homes.
The economic disaster we continue to suffer from was caused by the corporations, primarily in the financial services sector. The whole house of cards came tumbling down when the securitized mortgage market was found to be a ruse. Once the housing bubble burst it took everything down with it.
There are lots of problems with public education but I suggest we need to find ways to improve that system than vilify it. We can’t afford to send everyone to private schools and an education is needed now more desparately than ever in order for the U.S. to compete.
I got an excellent education at public schools and public universities. And, oh horror of horrors, my teachers from K-12 were members of a union!!!
So yes in fact the reason she can’t find a teaching job is directly a result of the mismanagement by corporate America that gave us this ongoing calamity.
JKL2
October 19th, 2011
1:22 pm
-Police Worry Protests Will Disrupt World Series
Go Cardinals! (simulating tomahawk chop in memorium for the braves collapse). Looking for a toe ring since our fingers are full.
NAGA
October 19th, 2011
1:23 pm
libs thinking that these angry flea baggers are going to rejuvinate the dem party??? Funny stuff
Philosopher, there are plenty of jobs out there but you have to have the RIGHT JOB SKILLS. My company has had open reqs for software developers, Oracle DBAs, etc. People showing up for a possible interview have Liberal Arts, PolySci, Education, etc., etc degrees – those are not what is needed pal.
A degree does not automatically tranlsate to a well paying job – something that the liberal mind cannot comprehend.
Goldie
October 19th, 2011
1:24 pm
“I don’t know what the answer is but protesting the local parks and streets does nothing to solve this problem.”
Donna P.@ 12:52– except maybe to show some of the human faces of “those people” you might only want to know as a statistic, such as 9% or 15% unemployment…
Pat
October 19th, 2011
1:25 pm
@Joe Mama, okay you got me on the taxes things, but you know that the government sets these tax rates and rules. The governments are the ones that are cutting the budgets to the institutions and moving money around to pay for other things, that is not the corporations fault. Because a school is not hiring is due to lack of funding, that is coming from the government.
Joe Mama
October 19th, 2011
1:25 pm
real john — “Also a little fun fact, the US actually MADE money off TARP.”
Negative.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a44MGDYGcZHk
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/12/citi-tarp-repayment-is-a-tax-dodge/
Dan
October 19th, 2011
1:26 pm
You can protest and chant all you want, but unless you correctly identify the problem you will never find a solution, it’s not the banks it’s the governments interference that caused the problem.
md
October 19th, 2011
1:27 pm
I want to know why the movement is called “Occupy Wall St” vs “Occupy the Gov’t that gave money to Wall St no strings attached”??
Enough Already
October 19th, 2011
1:27 pm
I am a conservative but I agree with the OWS in principle. The financial and banking industry in this country is a rigged game. Furthermore, it is not capitalism.
The bankers and wall-streeters have their cronies running the monetary system and Congress so that they always win. They got bailed out without losing a dime and now the government is loaning them money to speculate on at zero interest.
The financial industry is over 30% of GDP in this country. Now just ask yourself, what exactly is it that they do that produces wealth? They borrow money from people or the government, spin it into incomprehensible “investments” and sell it to persons who trying to increase their nestegg so they can retire. There are no products created, no services provided, just money out of thin air. Sounds a lot like the mortgage fiasco.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
Pat
October 19th, 2011
1:27 pm
@SwedeAtlanta, you might want to check the Department of Revenue website. Tax Revenue has been on the increase. Corporations do not set the rates. It is not their fault that the people who make the decisions on where the money goes does not allocate it to the “right” places.
Pat
October 19th, 2011
1:28 pm
@ Dan, I completely agree
Joe Mama
October 19th, 2011
1:30 pm
Pat — “@Joe Mama, okay you got me on the taxes things, but you know that the government sets these tax rates and rules. The governments are the ones that are cutting the budgets to the institutions and moving money around to pay for other things, that is not the corporations fault. Because a school is not hiring is due to lack of funding, that is coming from the government.”
Government that is no longer responsive to individuals, but to businesses. Government lowering business taxes at the behest of the businesses themselves. The supposed rights of businesses and corporations are nowhere noted or even commented on in the Constitution. So why are they allowed to lobby Congress?
Remove the right of free speech from corporations. Remove their ability to lobby and make political donations. Remove the corrosive effect of corporate money from our political system and make the government of, by and for the people once more.
philosopher
October 19th, 2011
1:30 pm
@Pat- I challenge you-get out of your comfort zone in front of Fox news and apply for a job in the guise of a fresh college graduate with no experience…an architect, an engineer, a secretary, something other than healthcare- test it- see how far you get. Try it as a 55 year old laid-off person in almost any capacity…
NAGA
October 19th, 2011
1:32 pm
Here is what “Occupy Atlanta” is all about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW56Z-0xwIQ
If these clowns really do speak for 99% of the country, Good God we are in a world of hurt.
Pat
October 19th, 2011
1:32 pm
@JoeMama, I agree, they do lobby to get what they want but it is not illegal, Once lobby becomes illegal, which I doubt because the people in Governments are greedy, they will keep doing it. The people to blame are the people who pass laws to allow this to happen.
Joe Mama
October 19th, 2011
1:34 pm
Pat — “I agree, they do lobby to get what they want but it is not illegal”
It’s not Constitutional, either.
“Once lobby becomes illegal, which I doubt because the people in Governments are greedy, they will keep doing it. The people to blame are the people who pass laws to allow this to happen.”
How about blaming the people who vote in such lawmakers?
How about we Americans recognizing that WE need to demand change?
That’s what the protestors are about.
philosopher
October 19th, 2011
1:34 pm
“Maybe people need to brush up on their skills to what these jobs wants” Horse hockey! Folks cannot afford to pay off their prior education loans…how the friggin heck do you think they can afford to learn new skills even if there were jobs to get???? WAKE UP!!!!.
Liberals are all attitude and no gratitude....
October 19th, 2011
1:37 pm
Personally, I prefer to THANK the producers in society, not vilify them. I can only believe that it is envy and jealousy that drives the left, because it sure isn’t gratitude.
Joe Mama
October 19th, 2011
1:40 pm
“Personally, I prefer to THANK the producers in society, not vilify them. I can only believe that it is envy and jealousy that drives the left, because it sure isn’t gratitude.”
Sure would be nice if those producers would THANK the taxpaying, working public who INSTALLED and PAID FOR the very infrastructure that makes it possible for producers to produce in the first place, not to mention move their goods to market.
Pat
October 19th, 2011
1:40 pm
@philosopher-challenge accepted. 1st of all, I do not watch Fox news. 2nd, It is hard for anyone without experience to get a job fresh out of college. It took me 8 years to get out of school just because I was going part time and working full time to get that experience so I could get something when I graduated. You are not going to get most jobs like that anyway with no experience. Why do people assume when they graduate that they will get their dream job. It takes work and time, not just a piece of paper.
I understand about the 55 year old too but when you start telling companies who they need to hire, that just opens another issue. They can also retrain for something else too.
Pat
October 19th, 2011
1:43 pm
@JoeMama, there are a lot of things that are not illegal and unconstitutional. That is a problem. There does need to be a change in the people that are put in charge but blaming Wall Street does not do that. Why don’t they actually go to the source and protest there, i.e. the Capital?
Pat
October 19th, 2011
1:47 pm
@philosopher, so we should force companies to hire someone, even if they do not have skills to help that company succeed?
md
October 19th, 2011
1:48 pm
Hear what you are saying Joe, but the goods to market are the goods of the buyers…..not the sellers.
The buyers pay those taxes too, so I really don’t see your point. Tax is just an expense factored into the cost of the goods………we pay it…….thus pay for those roads, etc……….
Joe Mama
October 19th, 2011
1:48 pm
Pat — “@JoeMama, there are a lot of things that are not illegal and unconstitutional. That is a problem. There does need to be a change in the people that are put in charge but blaming Wall Street does not do that.”
Wall Street’s where the most egregious example of business getting a pass has happened recently. It’s an appropriate site, in my opinion.
“Why don’t they actually go to the source and protest there, i.e. the Capital?”
My wife (who is somewhat younger than me) was in college during Desert Storm. I was in the Army. She and some of her hippie pals (she went to a hippie state college on the West Coast) picketed the ROTC building on her campus.
I pointed out to her that the military doesn’t *vote* on where we deploy and who we fight; we follow orders. But those orders come from the President and Congress, so if she really wanted to make a difference, she’d go protest at her Congressman’s office or even in Washington.
She caught on.
The protestors on Wall Street (and over 200 other cities worldwide) will likewise catch on. Just give them time.
#occupy my desk...
October 19th, 2011
1:51 pm
Can we call this what it is? A giant, monstrous diversion maneuver? Seriously, starting a protest before having any real goals or objectives makes no sense. Why in 2011 instead of 2009 when these bailouts happened? Why hasn’t there been any animosity towards the administration who did the bailing out? Why no leadership, organization or coordination? Exactly! The point is to keep everyone watching this bouncing ball instead of what is really going on. The libs are losing ground and credibility at an alarming rate – they are going to lose the senate, keep the house and have a coin flip for the White House. This is a deliberate distraction and the “protestors” are largely young entitled kids who would be protesting for something else tomorrow.
Pat
October 19th, 2011
1:52 pm
@JoeMama, they need to hurry up to actually catch on, because the longer they keep doing what they are doing, more and more people will lose respect.
Joe Mama
October 19th, 2011
1:54 pm
md — “Hear what you are saying Joe, but the goods to market are the goods of the buyers…..not the sellers.”
Nope. Goods that are going to a shop are the goods of the sellers. Therefore the sellers are taking advantage of an infrastructure that they need to pay for.
Goods that I personally transport home are the goods of the buyer. If I’m not buying a Sealy mattress, then I don’t see why I should pay for Sealy’s use of the roads to get their mattresses to market.
“The buyers pay those taxes too, so I really don’t see your point. Tax is just an expense factored into the cost of the goods………we pay it…….thus pay for those roads, etc……….”
I pay taxes for MY use of the roads. Sealy needs to pay taxes for ITS use of the roads. If Sealy finds its tax burden too high, then maybe Sealy could concentrate on adjusting its product price and/or cost in order to accommodate that. Frankly, I find the whole ‘buyers wind up paying for the producers’ taxes’ argument to be specious and naive. If producers were honest about it, they’d reduce their prices when their taxes got cut, but I don’t recall seeing that happen this century.
Joe Mama
October 19th, 2011
1:55 pm
Pat — “@JoeMama, they need to hurry up to actually catch on, because the longer they keep doing what they are doing, more and more people will lose respect.”
Shrug. People said the same thing about the civil rights protests of the 60s.
philosopher
October 19th, 2011
1:57 pm
@Pat- never suggested such a thing- please do not put words in my mouth. I am suggesting that this is not the world we promised our kids or expected to find ourselves- the rules have all changed-so stop using yesterdays’ rules for today’s problems. The lenders crashed our world and made a future for many., many a nightmare instead of a dream.- you had a shot at the American Dream and want to sit back and expect people to function as they did when you graduated- I am sick of folks using “Well, I did it, they can too” as a litmus test when the game is not the same at all!
Obama is over
October 19th, 2011
1:58 pm
The housing bubble was a combination of greed by government, the private sector, and individuals. It is a waste of time to assign blame to one party, institution, or business sector. The important question today is what are we going to do about it? Fannie/Freddie have lost $140 billion since 2008. They currently own 1000’s of houses that have been foreclosed on. They are supposed to be in the housing finance business, not the property management business. I personally met with Fannie Mae 3 years ago to discuss purchasing a portfolio of their foreclosed houses to convert to section 8 rental properties. Nothing happened because we could not agree on price and the economics simply did not work. Currently 90% of all mortgages are guaranteed by the Government because our Japanese style zombie banks are still working on legacy toxic debt and the regulators make it very difficult to add new loans to their balance sheets. Yet, Obama, while campaigning against Wall St., is reaching out to finance institutions to encourage private investment in the mortgage industry. Trying to decipher regulatory risk and the direction of the economy makes it very difficult to make hiring decisions right now. I am sympathetic to both the OWS folks and the people who have had their 401k’s wiped out. When I got out of undergrad, the prime rate was 16% and you could not get a job anywhere. I mopped a lot of floors and dug my fair share of ditches along the way and the only things I know for sure are that this too will pass; sitting around feeling sorry for yourself will accomplish nothing; and USinUk will have more smartass comments because he only knows how to react, not create. No solutions, no new ideas, just piss and vinegar whining, complaining, and criticism.
Pat
October 19th, 2011
1:59 pm
@ – #Occupy – I agree
@Joe Mama – Right but nowadays, the attention span of people is a lot lower than it was back then, people tend to move quickly to other things. They need to actually see what it is they are for as quick as possible with solutions.
mmm, mmm, mmm, Barack the Liar Obama - BEND OVER, Here comes the CHANGE!
October 19th, 2011
2:00 pm
Looney is as Looney Does. Why the hell don’t they GET A JOB, any JOB! I know I couldn’t be off for a month, oh wait, the UNIONS are supporting them. Dumbass Dems!
independent thinker
October 19th, 2011
2:00 pm
The agents of “hope and change” have taken to the streets because their leader is frustrated. You got to admire those community organizing skills!
Joe Mama
October 19th, 2011
2:01 pm
Oio — “USinUk will have more smartass comments because he only knows how to react, not create”
USinUK is a woman.
“No solutions, no new ideas, just piss and vinegar whining, complaining, and criticism.”
Given your posting history and behavior, I’m surprised to see you posting something like this about another poster — it seems to apply quite well to your own comments.
Pat
October 19th, 2011
2:05 pm
@philosopher, why did the lenders crash or society? Was it because they were allowed too? I think so. But putting all this blame onto the corporations is not the right thing. The government allowed them to do this. The people that are in debt (wanting to buy stuff that they knew they could not afford) allowed this. Of course the corporations wanted to maximize their profits. Well maybe one rule people should live buy today like they did yesterday, “if you cannot afford something, either work hard to afford it, or adapt your way of life to get it.”
Jay
October 19th, 2011
2:12 pm
““while corporate profits are at record high” I believe you should have sited some source for this comment, but of course you can’t because it’s simply not true. It just makes me sick that any news source would print this garbage. How can you have a complete disregard for facts, or even try to broad statments like this without even attempting to back it up with sources.
I’ve cited my sources for this several times in the past. Here it is again, because we wouldn’t want Mark to get sick or anything.
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/CP
real john
October 19th, 2011
2:19 pm
@ Joe Moma 1:25
Yes, the US did make money off TARP…This is article from CNNMONEY.COM…
I can cite several more if you would like. You were pulling articles from 2009…nice try though.
WASHINGTON (Fortune) — Guess what? The federal government will make money on bailing out the banks.
According to new numbers issued today by the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office, a key part of the much-loathed Troubled Asset Relief Program, or TARP, has become a profit center for the U.S. government.
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Quick Vote
Should the federal government impose special fees on banks in order to recoup some of the bailout funds?
YesNoNot sure or View resultsThe CBO projects the government will ultimately make a profit of $7 billion from assisting the banks: $3 billion from the Capital Purchase Program, in which the government propped up banks by purchasing preferred stock; $2 billion from helping Citigroup (C, Fortune 500); and another $2 billion from helping Bank of America (BAC, Fortune 500).
In other words, the banks are on track not only to pay taxpayers back all the $200 billion plus we’ve lent them, but put a dent — albeit a small one — in our enormous budget deficits.”
SwedeAtlanta
October 19th, 2011
2:21 pm
Re Occupy my Desk @ 1:51
First of all, the Republicans currently control the House and the Democrats the Senate. So your statement “libs” will keep the house may reflect your level of knowledge. I can’t be sure of course.
I can’t read the minds of the protestors but here are a few thoughts….
Americans have historically been a fairly forgiving people and fairly patient. So while many, including myself, didn’t like the idea of the bailouts I saw them as possibly essential to avoid an even worse outcome. I for one was willing to save the financial services sector but in the back of my mind that was tied to an expectation that we would figure out what went wrong and fix it. The new regulations on financial institutions are intended to do just that but conservaties don’t like the idea of preventing Wall Street from doing it again.
Bailing out GM and Chrysler were risky but not doing it would have thrown millions of more Americans out of work. Cautiously it appears the bailouts worked as we have seen GM return to profitability and repay much of the bailout funds.
But after 3 years of waiting for a real recovery and seeing no relief in sight I think the OWS protestors have had enough. They may have been patient in giving things time to improve but it appears we are in on a stagnant and likely deteriorating trajectory. Something had to give.
But they aren’t bringing guns and aren’t threatening violence unlike the “2nd Amendment remedy” suggested by some of the tea baggers that also arrived at their events with their guns strapped to their jeans. How butch I thought. They have to show what a “man” they are by brandishing their weapon. A little psychology might suggest they did that to make up for shortcomings in some other areas.
real john
October 19th, 2011
2:23 pm
According the the US Treasury at the end of March, 2011, the US had made a profit so far of $23.8 billion off TARP.
I can keep going if you like
Obozonomics
October 19th, 2011
2:24 pm
NAGA, isn’t that the type of liberal that the Obozoites want? LOL Why would any politician align them selves with the “occupy” crowd?
Joe Mama
October 19th, 2011
2:28 pm
Real John — “Yes, the US did make money off TARP…This is article from CNNMONEY.COM…”
Sorry, no. You clearly didn’t read what I posted. The 2009 WashPost piece said that the government lost more money in forgone tax income than it made in TARP profits. That doesn’t deny that the government made money on TARP, but it clearly points out that the government lost money it would have made if it hadn’t made the TARP loans. Overall result — money lost.
Try again, John.
“I can cite several more if you would like.”
So can I. Would you like for me to cite Neil Barofsky again? He’s the Special Inspector General appointed by Congress for the entire TARP program.
“You were pulling articles from 2009…nice try though.”
Irrelevant. This article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/15/AR2009121504534.html
While it may be two years old, is still true. If you can present something to *directly refute its assertions,* I would be interested in reading it. Don’t post some BS that says ‘the government made money on TARP repayments.’ Post something that directly refutes the argument that the government LOST more in forgone tax income than it made in TARP repayments.
Also, if you can cite someone who’s more informed on the TARP program than the Congressionally-appointed Special Inspector General for the program, then bring it on, John.
mmm, mmm, mmm, Barack the Liar Obama - BEND OVER, Here comes the CHANGE!
October 19th, 2011
2:36 pm
Where are you on this one Jay?
The House Ethics Committee said Tuesday it would move ahead with an investigation of whether Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr. tried to buy Barack Obama’s vacated Senate seat.
Oh, if it was a republican, you’d have already posted on it. Shameless.
Joe Mama
October 19th, 2011
2:39 pm
If it had been a republican, you’d have already excused it and demanded that everyone move on and discuss a different topic.
GT
October 19th, 2011
2:40 pm
I was reading the Bible the other day. I noticed Jesus asked a lot of questions even answered questions asked him with questions. This group in the park or on Wall Street is not answering questions they are asking and when you answer with something that is obvious not correct, they stand there like a visual aid to show that your answer has not covered the issue at hand. Politically correct was a world Jesus entered with Jewish Pharisees and their list of dos and don’ts. Like Jesus to the Jews this list ain’t covering the problem at hand, what looks good is fooling us.
Adam
October 19th, 2011
2:46 pm
Thogwumpy: all the anti-Semetic expression amongst the Occupy goons
Yeah, all one or two of them. It’s best to ignore such groups as they are still in the minority and only there to try to take the main message away from the bulk of the protesters. Looks like you fell for it.
md
October 19th, 2011
2:47 pm
“Frankly, I find the whole ‘buyers wind up paying for the producers’ taxes’ argument to be specious and naive.”
Doesn’t make it any less so……..tax is nothing but an expense on the books……the corporation knows no difference…….all expenses are factored into the equation to arrive at a price…….they don’t move tax over to the side to make a separate determination…………….
Robert
October 19th, 2011
2:48 pm
@ Donna P
I DO identify with the Occupy Protesters AND I pay my bills, have health insurance through my wife’s job, we both have jobs (31 yrs and 25 yrs), and we pay our mortgage even though our house is under water. I chose to NOT to have credit card debt OR a car loan BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.
But, Bless Your Heart, you got me with:
“Life is HARD for everyone even the rich; they have troubles on a much larger scale than most.”
Huh??? – Corporate America (Wall Street and The Idle Rich) are sitting on 2 trillion dollars in cash and still not creating any jobs! In fact, more jobs are being cut; while the corporations and Idle Rich wait on the GOP to force another round of tax breaks for them.
What happened to all those jobs we were promised would be created from the Bush Tax Cuts?
The corrupt corporations demand lower tax rates, no regulations, and more profit at any price.
Or what?
They will move to another country? The republicans have already allowed them to move their corporate accounts off-shore to avoid their share of taxes and they still CLAIM to be American companies.
This is not Capitalism or a real Free Market System regulated by supply and demand. It’s GOP greed and corruption!
Welcome to the occupation (Trotsky)
October 19th, 2011
2:48 pm
Liberals are all attitude and no gratitude : “Personally, I prefer to THANK the producers in society, not vilify them. ”
Then why don’t you start acting like it and support the workers instead of slandering them in the name of those who scrape off the foam from the top and keep it for themselves?
By the way, what’s a “liberal” anyway? I’ve always wanted to know the answer to that question.
Scooter
October 19th, 2011
2:49 pm
@ USinUK, you said; “investment banks were buying mortgages at the speed of light, as well … until they weren’t … and the banks were stuck with them on their books.”
Private banks were buying mortgage backed securities, but they came to the party after Fannie and Freddie started it. Latecomers to the party can’t be blamed for organizing and throwing the party. What concerns me is the Government is obfuscating their role in the mess and too many people are helping them in that effort. Care to tell me why, because its not in their interest as a private lender. Sun Trust Mortgage gave me preferable mortgage terms for moving to a low income area?
as far as a college “bubble” – you’re kidding, right?
“investment banks were buying mortgages at the speed of light, as well … until they weren’t … and the banks were stuck with them on their books.
You also typed; “as far as a college “bubble” – you’re kidding, right?”
No, I’m not kidding. The price of college has been increasing exponentially because the demand has been increased through government intervention. Now, I didn’t look at your graph because I know what I see. That said, if it’s not a bubble, please tell me how our economy is going to absorb all the high priced degrees in Anthropology, English, African American Studies, Photography, etc… The number of degrees out their over supplies the true demand, that’s a bubble my friend.
Adam
October 19th, 2011
2:51 pm
GS: If the person you speak of is as poor as you make them out to be I will assure you they will qualify for Pell Grants…..but they would only be able to tke a part time load most likely, not a full 12 hours.
That’s fair, as long as we continue to decide that we want to and can afford to offer Pell Grants and the person can eat and shelter himself with part of the money.
GT
October 19th, 2011
2:51 pm
Lobbies in Congress have percepitated the bail out of powerful banks and corporations. James Steward played that roles of Mr. Smith goes to Washington 80 years ago. Not much have changed, they admit the problem but it is someone else not them and life goes on like a cheating husband. It took the streets to stop segregation, a immoral war and now this. The spirit of the real tea party is out there with the victims to show it, not the fat cats that were born on third and think they hit a triple.
John Birch
October 19th, 2011
2:56 pm
Yeah, stuff happens. You borrow $80k for college and can’t get a job that allows you to pay it back. Let’s see, I guess we just need to add a good job to th elist of entitlements; health insuance, health care, education, food, housing, cell phone, etc. But if you already have all that other stuff why would you want a job?
Adam
October 19th, 2011
2:57 pm
Personally, I prefer to THANK the producers in society, not vilify them.
And *I* prefer not to reward their stinginess by giving them yet another tax cut so they can continue to sit on oodles of MORE cash. Oh, and then there’s this:
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2011/10/19/tea-party-nation-urges-businesses-to-stop-hiring-people-in-order-to-bring-down-president-obama/
Adam
October 19th, 2011
2:59 pm
John Birch: So you can pay the bills and be a contributor to society and to the economy. One could go without the cell phone, then education, then health insurance, then health care in general, then finally drop housing and food from their budgets because there’s no income and they don’t want to accept a “hand out.” But then, they aren’t contributing to the economy, and the only thing they contribute to society in a few weeks is a dead body.
md
October 19th, 2011
3:07 pm
“Huh??? – Corporate America (Wall Street and The Idle Rich) are sitting on 2 trillion dollars in cash and still not creating any jobs! In fact, more jobs are being cut; while the corporations and Idle Rich wait on the GOP to force another round of tax breaks for them.”
Put the memo down………
The fact is, the majority of corps are small businesses and are NOT sitting on trillions of dollars…….repeating that baloney only makes matters worse.
John Birch
October 19th, 2011
3:12 pm
adam – That’s the natural order of things and one of the founding principles of this country all the way back to Jamestown according to some. Those that don’t work shouldn’t eat! (unless they’re disabled or some private source takes pity on them) The slugs in the park should do their civic duty for the betterment of the rest of us productive typoes and march into the sea like the lemmings they are!!!
mmm, mmm, mmm, Barack the Liar Obama - BEND OVER, Here comes the CHANGE!
October 19th, 2011
3:15 pm
Hmmm, Jay here’s another one that if a white person said it, it would be news….I guess they are MILLION dollar slaves to Gumbel..
Bryant Gumbel invoked images of slavery in a scathing attack on NBA Commissioner David Stern, saying he is acting like a “modern-day plantation overseer” in his treatment of players during the league’s lockout.
Welcome to the occupation (Trotsky)
October 19th, 2011
3:27 pm
Hey Birchie,
“The slugs in the park should do their civic duty for the betterment of the rest of us productive typoes and march into the sea like the lemmings they are!!! ”
The people in the park are busy taking the system under control, and the elite pooh bahs are absolutely in a frenzy over what to do to stop it.
Looks like you are too, Birchie.
Why so cross about people taking their own destiny into their own hands? Isn’t that what this country was based on originally?
SwedeAtlanta
October 19th, 2011
3:33 pm
Re md @ 3:07
The aggregation of cash by American businesses has been reported by reputable news organizations across the political spectrum. You are correct that small businesses are not likely to be in that position but in the aggregate there is alot of cash sitting idle.
The large multi-national corporations sitting on cash continue to furlough American workers and hire abroad. Certain kinds of jobs need to be filled in country for their overseas operations such as sales staff, local service and support, etc. But there are undoubtedly jobs going overseas that could be done by American workers.
So, for those jobs that American companies have to fill in this country, why aren’t they hiring? There is alot of talk about uncertainty around taxes and regulation. I’m sure anxiety about that may be a factor but this is nothing new. Businesses are always aware that policy around taxes and regulation changes over time. They are, of course, able to influence those decisions through lobbying and political contributions now made unlimited by Citizens United.
But the cold reality is they aren’t hiring because there is insufficient demand for goods and services to justify hiring. I don’t see businesses hiring just to be good citizens. They do and should make decisions that are based on sound business principles.
So how will we increase demand for goods and services? Unless we increase demand there will be no recovery. Lowering taxes isn’t going to increase demand enough to kick start the economy. A business isn’t going to hire workers becasue their taxes are reduced if there is no demand for their goods and services. Consumers with jobs cannot make up that demand if they get a 5% reduction in taxes.
That leaves public spending as the only source to drive demand by having the government purchase goods and services (e.g. fixing bridges, roads, etc.) and supporting local and state governments retain and hire teachers, firefighters, policemen, etc.
Those are the cold facts. We can vilify public spending all day long but at the end of the day it is the only way to increase demand. The problem with the first stimulus was it was too small. It is kind of like starting a fire. Adding a single ember to a stack of firewood might get a little glow but that glow will eventually go out. It takes enough fire to fully ignite the firewood.
I am not a supporter of public spending that is unjustified but I have yet to see anyone explain to me how else we are going to kick start the economy. Reducing taxes would have minimal impact on job creation and demand.
John Birch
October 19th, 2011
3:40 pm
Welcome Trots – If the people in the park are actually “taking the system under control” as you say we are really headed for white water. I support all non-violent civil disobedience, but I know taxing the evil banks and corporations won’t solve many of our economic problems. I prefer just printing enough money to pay off all government debt then pass balanced budget and term limit amendments. Hey we’ll have some interesting times when bread goes to $20 a loaf but with all that cash around there should be jobs and opportunities.
real john
October 19th, 2011
3:44 pm
@ Joe Mama:
Actually I can. I have about 20 different articles from sources such as Bloomberg, CBS, NY Times, etc, that all validate my point. Unlike you I have a job and don’t sit around blogging all day.
I did have time to include a report from the US Treasury…I would assume a pretty relevant source…wouldn’t you? Its very clear they state that at the end of March 2011, the US had made $23.8 billion in profit.
If you would like more sources, plesae Google “did the US make money off tarp” You will see thousands of articles by the leading financial institutions are stating my exact point.
“The Treasury Department website is dominated by a headline that reads “Tarp Bank Programs Make Money.” The assertion has been challenged by the Congressional Budget Office. The fact that the statement might be even close to true is extraordinary.
“The U.S. Department of the Treasury announced that the Troubled Asset Relief Program’s (TARP) investment in banks has now turned a profit after three financial institutions repaid a total of $7.4 billion in TARP funds today to taxpayers,” the new analysis says. The profit so far is $23.8 billion.”
Read more: TARP Might Make Money – 24/7 Wall St. http://247wallst.com/2011/03/31/tarp-might-make-money/#ixzz1bG65facr
real john
October 19th, 2011
3:46 pm
Also my article from earlier was from CNN written by Fortune. But I guess that was some “BS I made up” according to you. Yeah, nobody has EVER HEARD of CNN and Fortune..
John Birch
October 19th, 2011
3:48 pm
swede – The problem is the additional $450B or however much of additional debt. We know Greece is totally gone without huge foreign intervention with a debt of 1.6 times GDP we are right at 1 times GDP. If we do nothing beyond what we have already done we’ll hit that 1.6 tipping point before we get through these ten year Obama communist central planning projections. Then what happens? Best case is mediocre Britain after the sun finally set on the empire. Worst case is what? An upscale Mexio?
Adam
October 19th, 2011
3:48 pm
John Birch: The natural order of things is, arguably, to have no system by which any more than a few people gather together into their own tribe, look out for themselves and their own, and fight all the other tribes with no system of written law or currency.
I submit to you we should not aspire to make our society more like “the natural order of things.”
pat
October 19th, 2011
4:04 pm
I suppose most people around here are to dumb to realize that the democrats are still in power. They have the executive and half the legislative. 2 years ago they had all of it. What’d they give us? A health care plan nobody wants, and even they admit parts of it are flat undoable, and a stimulus that didn’t work…
Go ahead and blame it on ghosts and gobblins, it is halloween after all.
John Birch
October 19th, 2011
4:05 pm
Adam – Once perhaps, but we’ve moved way beyond that and the only going back is with some Mad Maxx scenario between now and then.
We’re stuck with the flawed capitalism and realistically probably can’t do much about it. It’s clear what the political picture is, for each party the party is everything, the will and/or welfare of the people is irrelevant. So at best we’ll get very minor poltical tweaks. They’re locked up arguing about spending cuts that will address less than 10% of new deficits the next ten years at the same time the Pres is suggesting adding another $1/2T almost immediately! I think we’;ll need a much bigger crisis, like Depression era 25% unemployment before we get enough people camping in the park that are really P.O.ed and maybe, just maybe, something good will get done.
Joe Mama
October 19th, 2011
4:09 pm
Real John — “Actually I can. I have about 20 different articles from sources such as Bloomberg, CBS, NY Times, etc, that all validate my point.”
Then get to posting, John.
“Unlike you I have a job and don’t sit around blogging all day.”
Believe it or not, I have a job, John. But if you’re just going to get personal, then I’m simply not going to respond to you. So either post what you have or shove off. Makes no difference to me.
Have a nice day.
Shawny
October 19th, 2011
4:12 pm
Sitting on $2T and not creating jobs. No one has yet to identify why.
So, if you are a large corporation, and you need someone to replace someone else, have grown your business and expansion dictates the need to hire, etc., then you hire people.
If none of these apply, you don’t hire people. It really is that simple.
If there is no expansion, but retraction, then there are no jobs to be had. I appreciate that there are those trying hard but can not find jobs, but in the current economy jobs are blood and corporations are the turnips. Camping out will not get more blood from the turnips.
Occupy Congress and the White House. That is where it should be.
Pat
October 19th, 2011
4:18 pm
Very true Shawny, they are afraid to hire and expand due to restrictions now placed on them. They need to go to the place that creates these restrictions and occupy there.
Don Abernethy
October 19th, 2011
4:18 pm
The only legitimate fear the occupiers have is that the country won’t go socialist.
Welcome to the occupation (Trotsky)
October 19th, 2011
4:48 pm
Don Abernathy: “The only legitimate fear the occupiers have is that the country won’t go socialist.”
Fear? I think you’re projecting pal. The protesters are precisely the ones here who seem fear-less to me. You want to see real fear? Just look at the barely concealed frenzy of the elite and their minions, the hit men in the propaganda world like Dick Morris and Doug Schoen. Just look at how Dick Morris engages in distortion, turns himself into pretzel shapes to use a Nazi comparison to describe what the protesters are doing, if you want to see what real fear looks like. They’re absolutely frantic to get this stopped.
Shawny
October 19th, 2011
4:51 pm
Trotsky, your moniker is accurate.
Lenin or Marx would also be suitable.
SwedeAtlanta
October 19th, 2011
4:52 pm
JB @ 3:48
First of all let’s stop with the pejoratives. Obama is not a socialist any more than Bush (I can’t say the same about Cheney) was a fascist.
You haven’t answered my question. What is going to sufficiently stimulate demand to kick-start the economy so that businesses sitting on cash see a reason to use some of that cash to invest in new plants, stores, employees, etc. and small businesses to see sufficient opportunity to warrant growing their businesses?
I realize we have a debt problem. That needs to be addressed by reducing long-term spending and increasing revenues. But in the immediate term what do you suggest we do?
Reducing taxes when they have been at their lowest rate in 50 years for the past decade isn’t going to stimulate demand. Reducing taxes on consumers by a few percent here or there isn’t going to sufficiently stimulate demand to kick-start the economy.
I’m open to suggestions but to simply say well we sure have alot of debt we can’t afford to do the one thing that will stimulate demand isn’t a solution. I’m anxious to hear your proposal.
Joe Mama
October 19th, 2011
4:56 pm
Pat — “Very true Shawny, they are afraid to hire and expand due to restrictions now placed on them. They need to go to the place that creates these restrictions and occupy there.”
Nope, I’m not buying that excuse.
Businesses say they’re not hiring because of restrictions and uncertainty, but historically, job creation AND capital expenditures have tracked each other very closely. When times are good, both go up. When times are bad, both go down.
So guess where capital expenditures have been going lately?
UP.
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2011/07/qotd-paul-kasriel-selective-uncertainty/
SDB Evening News Reads for 101911: Conservative Closets and Hot Potatoes « Sky Dancing
October 19th, 2011
5:18 pm
[...] Near the center of the encampment of some 70 tents, somebody had erected a section of unpainted wooden fence, with a sign asking “What’s your story?” The fence is full of authentic American stories scrawled on the wood with Magic Markers and Sharpies. Members of Occupy Wall Street celebrate after learning that they can stay on Zuccotti Park in New York. Photograph: Emmanuel Dunand/AFP/Getty Images [...]