‘Occupy’ movement giving voice to legitimate fears
Instead of using police officers to oust protesters from Woodruff Park, Atlanta Mayor Kasim Reed has wisely decided to wait and see, hoping that the passage of time and the threat of sub-freezing temperatures will clear the park for him.
Maybe it will, but I’m doubtful. Critics of the Occupy movement claim that those involved are not representative of the American mainstream, and they’re right. People who camp for weeks on end as a form of political protest, and who risk or even force their own arrest by acts of civil disobedience, are by definition not mainstream. They are more extreme than the rest of us.
However, that doesn’t mean that they are divorced from mainstream thoughts or concerns. To the contrary, they’re a lot closer to tapping into what’s really happening in America than are the targets of their protests on Wall Street.
On a visit to the scene Tuesday afternoon, I saw a lot of signs quoting well-known outrageous radicals such as Sam Adams, Abraham Lincoln and Franklin Roosevelt. One woman with an audience of one was reading aloud from a piece of subversive literature, something about it being easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
Near the center of the encampment of some 70 tents, somebody had erected a section of unpainted wooden fence, with a sign asking “What’s your story?” The fence is full of authentic American stories scrawled on the wood with Magic Markers and Sharpies.
“I am 24 years old,” one person wrote. “I go to school and work full-time and get an average of four hours of sleep a night. I am hoping the degree I earn will help me pay off my $80,000 student loan. The outlook of this is dim. With every day that goes by more and more jobs in this country are lost. It seems most are going to other countries so corporations can make more money …. My mother’s house in Michigan was foreclosed on and she now lives with her mother in Tennessee. A 46-year old woman who has to live with her mom and has done nothing but work hard all her life.”
“All my life I’ve seen ‘immigrants’ being denied the right to receive scholarships to go to school and I’ve seen citizens being drowned in debt due to going to school,” another writes. “And once they finish, NO JOBS. So what’s the point anymore?”
“My son and granddaughter are unemployed,” someone else wrote, explaining that the bank stock that the family had owned was now worthless. “I am 70 and have no job or money. The banks *&#$ed everyone.”
As in other Occupy sites around the country, the vast majority of the participants are young people, and a recurring theme is anguish at the prospect of graduating from college with a heavy debt load and no jobs. The American Dream no longer seems realistic to many of them. In the Vietnam era, protests were dominated by young people who felt the threat of the draft most directly, and if that pattern is repeating itself, it’s for similar reasons. Among men ages 20-25, for example, the September unemployment rate was 15.8 percent, a number that badly underestimates the true scale of the problem, since many in that age group never had a chance to officially join the full-time workforce in the first place.
So yes, we can run off those protesters and take down that fence. But the problem is, it won’t make those stories go away. The people who are living those stories aren’t going away either. The sense of inequity in an economy in which millions are jobless and have lost their homes to foreclosure, while corporate profits are at record high, is not going to change unless the situation changes. Because for every story written on a wooden fence, there are several hundred thousand others in which the principal characters have so far suffered in silence.
The protesters are not the people we should turn to for answers or solutions, but that’s not their role. Their role is to give voice to a problem, and you have to believe that voice will get louder and louder.
– Jay Bookman
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607 comments Add your comment
Ricky B
October 19th, 2011
8:32 am
Oh yeah. Eat healthy. Don’t drink (too much), don’t do drugs, save and invest, and work in a way to do what you do better and more creatively every day.
DawgDad
October 19th, 2011
8:32 am
Decibels: No doubt there are some of those people around, some in postions of leadership. But they are NOT representative of the conservative base. And, please ask yourself who at present is promoting and driving what you refer to as “perpetual war” – why, the DEMOCRATS!!!
Adam
October 19th, 2011
8:33 am
Jay: One woman with an audience of one was reading aloud from a piece of subversive literature, something about it being easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
BOOOOOOOOM! (rumble rumble)
Well done there, I love it.
Donovan
October 19th, 2011
8:33 am
My, my, my…you liberals have nothing good to say about responsible people in the Tea Party voicing their concern about irresponsible spending, socialist legislation, and government intrusion into private freedoms, but praise the moronic drivel from neo hippies and union thugs.
You are the crowd that gave us a community organizer who has bankrupted this country and gave us a past president who had illicit sex in the WH and got caught lying to us on national TV. Nice astute character choices you elites have made.
This type of track record validates our concerns about your credibility and your ability to run this country.
Sorry boys and girls of the left. You’ve had your chance. Things are so screwed up by your mishandlings that it is time for us to recall you from recess and try to clean up your mess.
I can just see you all pushing in line to get after me. Have at it. I take solice in the saying, “how do you talk to a liberal?”…
YOU CAN’T!
You are the same crowd that gave us a community organizer who has run this country into bankruptcy and gave us a past president who got caught having illicit sex in the White House and lied to us on national TV.
Yeah, boys and girls of the left…go ahead and school me as to what sense you have in your elite understanding of the world.
How do you talk to a liberal?
You can’t.
See you at the polls.
Joe The Plumber too.
October 19th, 2011
8:34 am
granny at least you are being civil this AM. I never said protect wall street, I could care less about embracing wall street. All I am saying is giving a pass to DC is like busting one kids butt because he saw the other kid do and not punishing the other kid. Go to the source and fix that and then repair the other things that are wrong. amvet can’t get it through his little pointed head that his little closet crush barney protected freddie and fannie and started this whole mess. Why aren’t the parent and grandparent protestors who lost homes they couldn’t afford protesting that crook.
USinUK
October 19th, 2011
8:34 am
“You are the crowd that gave us a community organizer who has bankrupted this country ”
yeah, cuz everything was just so FAB with the economy on Jan 20, 2009 …
carlosgvv
October 19th, 2011
8:34 am
As long as Big Business keeps refusing to hire and continues to send more and more jobs overseas, these protests will continue. And, as long as Corporations are shielded by their bought and paid for lackeys in Congress, nothing will change. Big Business and The Republican Party clearly have a “let them eat cake” attitude towards the American worker. Large and powerful entities in past times and in other countries also had this kind of attitude towards their people. Anyone who knows their history knows what happened to these self-centered plutocrats. Looks like The Republicans and Corporations don’t know much or care much about history.
godless heathen
October 19th, 2011
8:34 am
Maybe the protestors need to occupy Emory, Ga State, Ga Tech, UGA and whine about their student loans there.
75% of the cost to run a college is labor costs. The profs aren’t hurting in a down economy.
Ricky B
October 19th, 2011
8:35 am
One more and I’m done. Go fast.
El Jefe
October 19th, 2011
8:35 am
Who hasn’t had hard times? Who hasn’t faced a mountain of debt and struggled to work it out? Who hasn’t worked hard all their live to grab the American Dream?
Who is whining about it?
Keep Up the Good Fight!
October 19th, 2011
8:35 am
Donovan already told us he has his fingers in his ears and will not listen. So why should we waste time on a closed mind?
Doggone/GA
October 19th, 2011
8:35 am
“Get a college education. But get a degree that is useful. Business, engineering, math, bioscience, materials science, technology.”
The problem with that advice is that what is a “useful” degree when you START college might not be so useful by the time you graduate.
AmVet - Read my lips. No new neo-cons.
October 19th, 2011
8:37 am
“How is Wall Street responsible for the high cost of a college degree?”
Look up the terms/phrases: plutocracy and income inequality.
And this little tidbit that the bootlicking, extremist, hyper-ignorant Republicans just don’t want to know.
Even though it affects their families.
Wages for almost 80% of American workers for the past forty years(!!!) have flat-lined.
This isn’t exactly Sherlock Holmes stuff.
Knowledge and respect for the truth are not your enemies…
Adam
October 19th, 2011
8:37 am
jv: anyone who uses the threat of violence to promote their own agenda, with no thought to the consequences
You mean like “second amendment remedies” and “if ballots don’t work, bullets will”?
El Jefe
October 19th, 2011
8:38 am
carlosgvv,
If Big Business was “shielded” by their lackeys in Congress, why are they moving their operations overseas? If it is good for GE to move then it should be good for America, just as Jeff Inmelt, President Obama’s Jobs Czar.
USinUK
October 19th, 2011
8:38 am
“Donovan already told us he has his fingers in his ears and will not listen. So why should we waste time on a closed mind?”
it’s my way of shoveling out the BS … the smell may linger on, but sometimes you gotta address the pile lest someone think it’s supposed to be there
AmVet - Read my lips. No new neo-cons.
October 19th, 2011
8:39 am
“I could care less about
embracingholding accountable wall street.”…freddie and fannie and started this whole mess.
And that friends and neighbors perfectly illustrates the massively self-imposed ignorance that fundamentally expalisn the neo-con ideology…
Granny Godzilla
October 19th, 2011
8:41 am
Joe The Plumber
I am civil every morning, but I don’t tolerate bullies, liars or idiots
well.
Your continued incorrect references to barny, freddie and fannie may well put you in one if not two of those categories.
kayaker 71
October 19th, 2011
8:41 am
There wasn’t a person in that debate last night who couldn’t turn this country around. I’ve said it before….. After Nov 2012, when any one of these Republican candidates gain the WH, unemployment will start to drop and by one year post election, will be below 7.5%. The single greatest thing that is hampering hiring is this inane Health Care Bill, which employers admit has so muddled the picture that they cannot be sure of future earnings, product demand and bottom line…. jobs. That evil business community needs stability and a sense of confidence before they will hire most anyone. And it ain’t here, my friends, it just ain’t there.
stands for decibels
October 19th, 2011
8:43 am
No doubt there are some of those people around, some in postions of leadership. But they are NOT representative of the conservative base.
face facts; the conservative base routinely opts to screw the less well off and promote the well-being of their Galtian overlords.
And, please ask yourself who at present is promoting and driving what you refer to as “perpetual war” – why, the DEMOCRATS!!!
Who said anything about political parties? Atrios is talking about about fiscal ideology.
Adam
October 19th, 2011
8:43 am
ragnar: a whining plea for government to give them good jobs without too much work, and to have somebody else pay for it all
Someone missed the MULTITUDE of stories of people (not just young) who went to school and worked their asses off and get less than 8 hours sleep each night and STILL can’t find jobs because they DON’T EXIST or because they simply aren’t available for anyone deemed “unworthy” by the corporate elite (i.e. someone who is already 5 years or more experienced or who is the CEO’s son).
People are F****ING LUCKY if they find ANY work at all that pays anything more than a pittance now. And the corporate masters say “that’s right, you ARE lucky. Just be happy to have a job. Now sit down, shut up, and take it b**ch.”
Don't Tread
October 19th, 2011
8:43 am
“…we can run off those protesters and take down that fence. But the problem is, it won’t make those stories go away.”
But there is hope. Raising taxes and taking freedom away from the people who do work will fix it overnight!
Ricky B
October 19th, 2011
8:45 am
Doggone 8:35. Not true. Things don’t change that much in 4 years
godless heathen
October 19th, 2011
8:45 am
“Look up the terms/phrases: plutocracy and income inequality.”
In other words, not.
75% of the cost of college is labor. The income of profs, assistant profs, and college employess hasn’t flat-lined or suffered from inequality.
Jay
October 19th, 2011
8:45 am
TruthBe, you’re gone for a few days.
Warning given, warning not heeded.
Adam
October 19th, 2011
8:46 am
Mick: Is it really that prevalent? or just another smear tactic…
*chuckle*
Granny Godzilla
October 19th, 2011
8:46 am
Kayaker
“There wasn’t a person in that debate last night who couldn’t turn this country around”
and around and around and around and around….
That is the history of the GOP after all.
AmVet - Neo-cons are they're just bad people who enjoy the suffering of others.
October 19th, 2011
8:47 am
stands, austerity forever!
And that quote that you linked is one I’m running with.
86% — including 77% of Republicans — agree with the movement’s contention that Wall Street and its proxies in Washington exert too much influence over the political process.
More than 70%, and 65% of Republicans, think the financial chieftains responsible for dragging the U.S. economy to the brink of implosion in the fall of 2008 should be prosecuted.
(Apparently a sizable chunk of that 35% who are in the “Let criminals be” camp blog here!)
Nearly 80% of respondents including 56% of Republicans think the class chasm between rich and poor has grown too large.
68%, including 40% of Republicans, say the affluent should pay more taxes.
Adam
October 19th, 2011
8:50 am
Rob: While there is certainly corruption in some of these areas the actual problem has been created by Washington (politicians) so why don’t these occupiers go protest in Washington???
They are.
Not everyone can be so brainwashed as to think Obama caused a recession before he was President, or that the Democrats caused the massive deficit before they were even in the majority, or that a single Democrat had control of everything so completely that he passed a bill with his name on it all on his own.
Aly
October 19th, 2011
8:52 am
Since when are Sauel Adams, Abraham Lincoln and Franklin Roosevelt considered RADICAL? If so, we are in good company if we share their beliefs and passion!
carlosgvv
October 19th, 2011
8:53 am
El Jefe – 8:38
That make no sense at all. Please sober up before making any more comments here.
AmVet - Neo-cons, they're just bad people who enjoy the suffering of others.
October 19th, 2011
8:53 am
Wow.
The Dave R. train to nowhere is getting more and more riders.
These protests have truly sent some of the Tucker refugees over the edge!
Joe The Plumber too.
October 19th, 2011
8:53 am
granny, stop the barney frank fantasy now, he just isn’t interested, amvet is more his type. I have thought you to be a pretty smart granny but if you deny that the housing problems started with loans being given to those unworthy of having them and barney pushing the agenda of frannie/freddie while his boytoy was working for them, then I guess I need to rethink my take on you. I am not a bully, liar or idiot, I have my take on things just as you do. If you believe the things you post then you are none of the above either, just a little misinformed.
Jay
October 19th, 2011
8:53 am
Joe the Plumber, I’ve asked this question repeatedly and never gotten a straight answer:
The GOP narrative holds that Barney Frank somehow blocked Republican efforts to reform Fannie and Freddie. Yet from 1995-2007, the Republicans exerted total control of the U.S. House, even going so far as to rewrite chamber rules to strip minority Democrats of what little authority they might have exerted. During those 12 years, Barney Frank, a liberal Democrat from Massachusetts, was not a committee chair and held no power.
So how did he perform this magic you attribute to him? Did he threaten to beat up the GOP majority? Did he bat his eyelashes in their general direction, or exert some strange Svengali-like control over those hapless, besotted Republicans? How exactly, as one minority member of a 435-member chamber, did Barney Frank manage to dictate what happened with Fannie and Freddie?
Please explain.
stands for decibels
October 19th, 2011
8:54 am
Since when are Sauel Adams, Abraham Lincoln and Franklin Roosevelt considered RADICAL?
“They are unanimous in their hate for me, and I welcome their hatred!”
Imagine a President saying such a thing about banksters today.
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
October 19th, 2011
8:54 am
$80,000? I guess it’s a good thing I never decided to be Dr. Convert.
Have a good Wednesday everybody.
philosopher
October 19th, 2011
8:55 am
@Rightwing Troll: You apparently just came up from under the bridge!-If your best argument is to dismiss, label, and asssume what you don’t KNOW about these young people, please crawl back under that bridge. Sure these kids can fly through technology faster than you can find the directions to the program, but they are NOT helpless- they can get by in this world better than you-does that make you bitter? You know perfectly well what their goal is- Jay could not have articulated it any better…and many others have done so, too. They are making people like you nervous and antsy b/c they are shedding light on inconscionable acts that were monetarily rewarding for banks and financial institutions . When these institutions caused financial collapse, they were bailed out and are now making megabucks, while most of the rest of America is suffering without hope. People like you would love for them to shut up and go away so you don’t have to face the ugly facts…too bad! It’s not going to happen…if I didn’t have a child to feed and a job to hold on to-I’d be right out there with them! With 2 degrees and and an admirable work ethic, my son is unable to find a job that pays enough to feed his family- minimum wage stocking at night at Walmart will not touch payment of education loans-much less lead him to a decent future. The American Dream has been replaced by the American Nightmare…and you ain’t seen nothin’, yet!!
Joseph
October 19th, 2011
8:55 am
I’ll agree with you Jay when they protest in front of the Whitehouse…. The reason banks are sitting on their money has nothing to do with greed if you would actually use logic instead of ridgid ideology. Its the uncertainty of government regulations thanks to the democrap party. I’m not spending money either if I don’t have to becuase I don’t know whats coming down the pipe with all the bills the liberal dems passed between 08′ & ‘10…. Lucky for the American people Republicans can put a stop to more bills that dissporportionatly hurt the low and middle class….
Junior Samples
October 19th, 2011
8:55 am
It would be easier to go out and get a job than to stay in that mess. But then, that would be called work and I seriously doubt any of that bunch has the desire to do that.
Call it like it is
October 19th, 2011
8:55 am
I will have to say the whole college debt thing is bewildering too me. Its kind of like a school teacher being upset about his or her pay when they know exactly what a teacher makes, yet they go to school to become one.
Same thing with taking on student loans. Are we to believe those individuals did not understand the debt they were accruing? Does anyone get out of school making 6 figures a year immediately? You chose the degree, you chose to get the loans, you had four years to make the connections to get a job with that degree and then when your fairy tail doesn’t come true, somehow the govt is responsible for taking care of your debts?
In the past 2 years I have had 2 nephews and 2 nieces graduate. All four worked thru college, all 4 paid their bills, all 4 made connections while in school and all 4 are working in their field of study, so you will have to forgive me if I dont have too much pity on these 20 year old’s at tent city yelling that America has failed them.
stands for decibels
October 19th, 2011
8:56 am
How exactly, as one minority member of a 435-member chamber, did he manage to dictate what happened with Fannie and Freddie?
GHEY-DAR!
Jimmy62
October 19th, 2011
8:56 am
I went to school and got a lame liberal arts degree and now I can’t find a job. The banks (%^^& everyone!
Umm… No, your school did, your government did, your teachers and parents convincing you to get a liberal arts degree did. None of the things that led you down this road involve banks. The government took money from one thing and gave it to the banks. So go protest the government. The Tea Party blamed the right people, the redistributors of income who decided to redistribute to the banks, and you can look right to D.C. for the correct villains.
Paul
October 19th, 2011
8:57 am
On a Droid – brief comments.
Movie about Nuremburg trials WII war crimes trials. Prosecutor said evil is the absence of empathy.
Seems harsh but there is quite a lack by some of empathy, let alone understanding.
Ricky B
October 19th, 2011
8:57 am
Jay
Samsara is natural. It is how we can transcend it that can make us happy.
Granny Godzilla
October 19th, 2011
8:59 am
joe the plumber
yes, definitely 2 outa’ 3.
Welcome to the occupation (Trotsky)
October 19th, 2011
8:59 am
As I wrote last night:
The political and technocratic elite is absolutely scared to drips at the potential threat they see represented in the Occupy Wall Street movement. They are desperate to see it shut down. Absolutely desperate.
Of course there are the usual suspects here. The usual low fauna of hitmen you’re predictably seeing coming out of the woodwork — the Dick Morrises and Brit Humes and Doug Schoens of the world. (I’m sure we’ll be treated to a smarmy little brief by Even Bayh soon enough.) I’m also talking about the other well-fed and supposedly “objective” doyens of the liberal, especially Beltway journalism establishment, the Anne Applebaums and Erin Burnetts.
At the end of the day, the result is always the same:
This is what a political and cultural elite that is truly scared looks like.
What you think about that Bud Wiser? You scared too?
larry
October 19th, 2011
9:01 am
How exactly, as one minority member of a 435-member chamber, did he manage to dictate what happened with Fannie and Freddie?
He said ” Hocus Pocus, slight of hand, and now all you Repubs are now under my command”.
I bet you didnt know he could do magic , could you ?
Armed Liberal
October 19th, 2011
9:03 am
Conservatives, please take a moment to look at these two graphs:
http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?attachment_id=7129
Do you get it now?
Adam
October 19th, 2011
9:03 am
Ricky B: Get a college education. But get a degree that is useful. Business, engineering, math, bioscience, materials science, technology.
So what, none of the Occupy protesters have any degrees like that? Is that your argument? Prove it.
Marie
October 19th, 2011
9:03 am
Two weeks ago I paid off my student loan debt (Thank You Jesus!!!!) that was over $50K when I started paying it back 7 years ago. It would have been great for the banks or the federal government to just cancel this debt. I am also currently in a house that is under water and I would love to just walk away from it. But I don’t and I won’t. Why??? Because I know that my word means more to me than my problems. When I went to school I applied for and accepted these student loans fully knowing that I would be required to pay them back whether I had a well paying job or not. And the same is true for when I purchased my home 7 years ago. No one forced me to buy a house and once I signed papers with the bank I knew I was obligated to pay that loan until it is paid in full.
But you will never pay debt off by crying and complaining about the fairness or unfairness of the debt. Too often these young people want everything right now — a house, a new car, ability to party and eat out, etc., and simply feel that paying their student loan is something they shouldn’t have to do. If you don’t have a job you can get a forebearance or deferment, but, this notion that you shouldn’t have to pay it because “the banks got a bailout” is a bunch of foolishness. Now hear the word of God, “OWE NO MAN”. Why is this important? Because when you owe someone they own you — “the borrower is slave to the lender”. GET OUT OF DEBT!!!!
Ricky B
October 19th, 2011
9:03 am
Jay 8:53. Not true
He was the ranking minority member of the committee. If you think that makes you “powerless”, then I think you might consider spending time talking to some peeps in DC about how things work.
HDB
October 19th, 2011
9:04 am
Donovan
October 19th, 2011
8:33 am
May I address your liturgy:
1) My, my, my…you liberals have nothing good to say about responsible people in the Tea Party voicing their concern about irresponsible spending, socialist legislation, and government intrusion into private freedoms, but praise the moronic drivel from neo hippies and union thugs.
How about “Keep the government out of my Medicare”….while not understanding that Medicare IS the government!! How about advocating DOMA….but decrying as immoral two people’s desire to create a union..albeit the same sex!! FRom my vantage point, you can’t figure out what is the correct side of the issue!!
2) You are the crowd that gave us a community organizer who has bankrupted this country and gave us a past president who had illicit sex in the WH and got caught lying to us on national TV. Nice astute character choices you elites have made.
How about three Presidents (Reagan, Bush 41 & 43) that put this nation on the path of fiscal irresponsibility…cutting taxes but SPENDING..financing two wars by borrowing from the Chinese?? Nice choice YOU made!! This type of track record validates our concerns about your credibility and your ability to run this country.
Sorry boys and girls of the right. You’ve had your chance. Things are so screwed up by your mishandlings that it is time for us to recall you from recess and try to clean up your mess….which is what Obama has been attempting to do since he got in…but has been roadblocked by Republicans at every turn!
I can just see you all pushing in line to get after me. Have at it. I take solice in the saying, “how do you talk to a conservative?”…
YOU CAN’T!
You are the same crowd that gave us a actor, a draft dodger who has run this country into bankruptcy and gave us a past president who lied to us on national TV.
Yeah, boys and girls of the right…go ahead and school me as to what sense you have in your elite understanding of the world.
How do you talk to a conservative?
You can’t.
See you at the polls.
There….fixed your statement……
Joe The Plumber too.
October 19th, 2011
9:05 am
Jay, from US News & World Report 9-10-2008. “These two entities—Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac—are not facing any kind of financial crisis,” said Representative Barney Frank of Massachusetts, the ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. “The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.”
From the Boston Globe Update: More information that Barney Frank was destabilizing Fannie Mae as early as 1991:
Although Frank now blames Republicans for the failure of Fannie and Freddie, he spent years blocking GOP lawmakers from imposing tougher regulations on the mortgage giants. In 1991, … the Boston Globe reported that Frank pushed the agency to loosen regulations on mortgages for two- and three-family homes, even though they were defaulting at twice and five times the rate of single homes, respectively.
Three years later, President Clinton’s Department of Housing and Urban Development tried to impose a new regulation on Fannie, but was thwarted by Frank.
1991, gee Jay, was W. President then also. There is lots of blame to go around but in my opinion, barney frank has been in on most of this freddie, frannie mess.
Jim163
October 19th, 2011
9:05 am
Yeah Jay..and now the Democrats control the senate and the Republicans are being accused of not ending debate on the presidents job bill even though the Minority leader explicitly called for a vote and was blocked by the Dem’s.
Soothsayer
October 19th, 2011
9:06 am
“Truth is treason in an empire of lies.”
– Ron Paul
Here is a great first-person article with lots of photos of the OWS. Well worth the read.
U. N. Known
October 19th, 2011
9:06 am
If Occupy is to succeed it must find a way to print its own currency…same as WS.
Ricky B
October 19th, 2011
9:06 am
Jay
I’ll quote:
“in 2003, while the tanking minority member on the financial services committee, Frank opposed a bush administration proposal, in response to accounting scandals, for transferring oversight of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac from congress and HUD to a new agency that would be created within the treasury department”
philosopher
October 19th, 2011
9:07 am
Are you really that ignorant? Or are you purposefully spouting lies to persuade those who are that ignorant? Thes are not just liberal arts students who are hoping to get their loans forgiven in these crowds…the people who have lost their homes and jobs include engineers, architechs, builders, developers, contractors, teachers, and on and on…people who went to school in professions that historically gave people a secure future. In these crowds are parents, grandparents, people from all walks of life…Pay attention and tell the truth.
Ricky B
October 19th, 2011
9:07 am
Jay. Frankly, you’re just wrong on this. It makes you look smaller that you won’t admit Frank’s corruption and stupidity.
Granny Godzilla
October 19th, 2011
9:08 am
“Did he bat his eyelashes in their general direction, or exert some strange Svengali-like control over those hapless, besotted Republicans?”
Oh Tish when you speak french……
Very hot Jay.
Generation$crewed
October 19th, 2011
9:08 am
I always know that when the Nazi Party endorses a protest that it truely is mainstream!!!!
But many of you who support this movement called the tea party racist, and bigots. Good judgement there
http://anp14.com/news/archives.php?report_date=2011-10-16
commoncents
October 19th, 2011
9:08 am
Marie- How dare you come here and preach about responsibility! EVERY person deserves a house and a new car every two years. This is Wall Street’s fault. It’s not my fault I didn’t have health insurance and then got sick, and I surely shouldn’t be responsible for paying off my student loans! They owe ME for getting a higher education!
Adam
October 19th, 2011
9:09 am
Donovan: My, my, my…you liberals have nothing good to say about responsible people in the Tea Party voicing their concern about irresponsible spending, socialist legislation, and government intrusion into private freedoms
You’re right. Let’s go down the list:
Government intrusion into private freedoms = OMG THEY’RE GONNA (maybe, someday) TAKE AWAY MY GUNS! Or maybe I should be allowed to dump my waste in the local river, or maybe I should be free to not pay the taxes I don’t want to pay because I do not personally use the services they provide (except when I will and do).
Irresponsible spending = any spending that isn’t spending I like. Unemployment, welfare, food stamps, so called “entitlements” are all things that should go, BUT HANDS OFF MY DEFENSE AND OIL SUBSIDY SPENDING.
Socialist legislation = Anything proposed by Democrats, no matter the substance. This includes putting teachers back to work. After all, teachers are all liberals seeking to push their socialist/marxist/evil/compromise/critical thinking/communist/progressive/reasonable(spit!) agenda onto MY KIDS, but don’t let that stop me from trying to force them to lead prayers in schools and to promote bullying of gay and muslim students. Oh yeah, and HANDS OFF my *SOCIAL* SECURITY!
Joe The Plumber too.
October 19th, 2011
9:11 am
@ granny: “yes, definitely 2 outa’ 3.” Don’t be so hard on yourself, bless your heart, we still love you.
Adam
October 19th, 2011
9:11 am
Donovan: You are the same crowd that gave us a community organizer who has run this country into bankruptcy and gave us a past president who got caught having illicit sex in the White House and lied to us on national TV.
This is nonsense. You are acting as though all policy is wrong because of a person’s sexual deeds or because of ONE of the occupations that a President once held in the PRIVATE sector (from which he OBVIOUSLY has no experience, just because you say so).
How do you talk to a NOBAMA? You CAN’T
Marie
October 19th, 2011
9:12 am
And why are they not protesting these college and universities? Why is tuition so high? Why has the cost of a college education continue to escalate each and every year? Why are charging students huge fees for services that many of them never use?
Banks are loaning students money based on the cost of an education. But the price of a college education is set by these colleges and universities; not the banks. If the price of an education is too high why not go occupy a building at Harvard, NYC College, Columbia University, GSU (they own all of downtown Atlanta so just pick a building) and protest the administration?
USinUK
October 19th, 2011
9:12 am
GG – 9:08 – I know – the word “besotted” is one of my favorites, too …
Welcome to the occupation (Trotsky)
October 19th, 2011
9:12 am
Marie: “But you will never pay debt off by crying and complaining about the fairness or unfairness of the debt. Too often these young people want everything right now — a house, a new car … ”
Wake up, Marie. This is not about crass materialism and your Dave Ramsey talking points won’t wash in this situation (though I find DR personally appealing).
You cannot pay off debts in an economic system that is rigged to benefit the hyper-wealthy at the expense of everyone else. But above all, you need JOBS to do it. And there are none, because of the low aggregate consumer demand for firms’ products and services as far out into the future as the eye can see. Thus we have a downward spiral. The only way out of it is to free people of their debts — which corporations can do easily anytime they want — and then radically restructure the situation so that it does not reproduce and serve the interests of a hyper-wealthy class at everyone else’s expense.
Besides, education is a fundamental right and should be supplied by the state.
Adam
October 19th, 2011
9:13 am
kayaker: There wasn’t a person in that debate last night who couldn’t
turn this country aroundrun this country into the ground or off a cliff.FYT. No thanks needed.
Ricky B
October 19th, 2011
9:15 am
In 2003, when Bush was trying to reform Fannie and Freddie specifically because congress didn’t have the oversight capabilities, And there were concerns about their size and risk, Frank enumerated many times that there was no risk, they were safe and sound, and would never be bailed out.
Jay, your deliberately blind ignorance of this issue seriously undermines your credibility. You should rethink your position.
commoncents
October 19th, 2011
9:15 am
Adam:
kayaker: There wasn’t a person in that debate last night who couldn’t turn this country around run this country into the ground or off a cliff.
FYT. No thanks needed.
We’re already in the ground, chief
Jay
October 19th, 2011
9:16 am
Jay. Frankly, you’re just wrong on this. It makes you look smaller that you won’t admit Frank’s corruption and stupidity.
OK, jm, step up and explain how this was Frank’s doing. Explain to us how one lone Massachusetts Democrat managed to block reform during 12 years of GOP control. Because otherwise, it looks to me as though you are looking for a scapegoat.
I’m not defending Frank. He was blind to a lot of the problems. However, there is no rational explanation for claiming that this was largely his fault and exempting those people who actually did have control from any blame. None whatsoever.
Generation$crewed
October 19th, 2011
9:16 am
Welcome to the occupation (Trotsky)
October 19th, 2011
9:12 am
I am anything but “hyper-wealthy” as you put it.
But I am paying off debts. Have paid off the stupid student loans i had (they were stupid because i was on full scholarship but took them out to have spending money, alot of spending money)
I have been able to pay off my credit card as well.
So your statement is complete opoinion and based in no fact.
Granny Godzilla
October 19th, 2011
9:17 am
Joe the Plumber
Cute response. Will you please write that in your diary tonight, lock it up tight and hide the key back under your matchbox cars.
BTW, I have most sincerely been blessed and I am very grateful.
Love you too.
Adam
October 19th, 2011
9:17 am
Jay: Joe the Plumber, I’ve asked this question repeatedly and never gotten a straight answer:
I hope you’re not surprised. One cannot give a straight answer to defend an ideology that makes no logical sense and seeks only to demonize someone.
The real answer is that it’s all talk, designed purely to pit Americans against another American, so as to maybe remove any power he has.
In other words, they’re freaking terrified of the guy.
kayaker 71
October 19th, 2011
9:17 am
Marie,
Good article in the Gainesville, FL morning paper today. Seems like the governor of FL, has published the salaries of all UF faculty members on his website. The ten highest paid are in the Medical School where the dean makes 535K/yr. Many of his top faculty make upwards of 450K/yr. No wonder the tuition at the Medical School is 40K+/yr. The average student loan total for a graduating physician after 4 yrs in Medical School is close to 180K….. and it can’t be paid off with pre-tax dollars.
Peadawg
October 19th, 2011
9:17 am
“run this country into the ground or off a cliff.”
Newsflash Adam, This country’s been in a ditch sense about 2002. Bush got us there and Obama has dug the hole deeper. I’m willing to give Romney a chance…he seems like the most “middle” candidate we’ve got.
Talking Head
October 19th, 2011
9:17 am
“Besides, education is a fundamental right and should be supplied by the state”
That’s your opinion. There is no federal or state legislation that says that though.
“The only way out of it is to free people of their debts”
Yeah, it’s called paying them off. Asking the government to bail out the student loans and placing $1 trillion on the taxpayers is the same irresponsible behavior that took place in 2008. Your are asking for the very thing you are protesting, a bailout because of irresponsibility.
Jim163
October 19th, 2011
9:18 am
“Besides, education is a fundamental right and should be supplied by the state.”
Watching the riots in Greece live on TV and I bet they were thinking the same thing…
Adam
October 19th, 2011
9:19 am
Joseph: I’ll agree with you Jay when they protest in front of the Whitehouse
Oh FFS, place the blame where it belongs. These people may be disappointed with the President for not fixing the problem all by his lonesome, but they know who the REAL culprits are, and that’s Wall Street, Congress, and the Supreme Court. All three places have protests going on right now. They are quite aware of where the real problem comes from. You could learn from this, if you choose to.
Wes T.
October 19th, 2011
9:19 am
“The protesters are not the people we should turn to for answers or solutions, but that’s not their role.”
Thank God! Finally someone in the media talks sense by diverting from the inane “what are their demands?!?” meme. Luckily polling shows that mainstream America is making this distinction much more effectively than the talking heads, as over 50% are voicing support for Occupy’s general message–despite the dreadlocks and drum circles.
scrappy
October 19th, 2011
9:19 am
“My mind says many (most) of them made some bad decisions along the way. Hopefully others can learn from their mistakes.
Exactly the mentality the protesters are trying to change! Wake up people, not everyone that has fallen on hard times has done so because they have made bad decisions or too lazy to get a job!
Yeah, how dare that guy decide to have a heart attack! How dare someone take out a loan to get a degree! What horrible life choices these people are making…
Joe Mama
October 19th, 2011
9:20 am
B. O. White — “I’m mad because these dumb kids could be contributing to society instead of blaming the achievers!”
I’m sorry, Mr. White but you clearly didn’t read Jay’s article.
THEY WANT JOBS, BUT AREN’T FINDING ANY BECAUSE OF THE CRASHED ECONOMY.
Go back and reread.
Adam
October 19th, 2011
9:20 am
Junior Samples: It would be easier to go out and get a job than to stay in that mess.
Take your resume everywhere you can think of that you think it should be really super easy to get a job at. Do this for 40 weeks. Let me know how long it takes to get just one single call that they want to even interview you.
THEN tell me it’s just so easy to go get a job.
Soothsayer
October 19th, 2011
9:21 am
Jay, you’re wasting your time trying to use reason with the Right.
Jay
October 19th, 2011
9:22 am
In 2003, jm, President Bush was at the peak of his power and popularity. The Republicans controlled the U.S. Senate, and they controlled the U.S. House. Yet somehow you’d have us believe that one lone Democrat from Massachusetts managed to overcome all that and refused to allow those poor Republicans to reform Fannie and Freddie.
It gets more ludicrous every time I hear it.
Marie
October 19th, 2011
9:22 am
@Trotsky — We will never agree on anything because I am talking about morality and responsibility and it is apparent by your statement “that education is a fundamental right and should be supplied by the state” that you have no moral compass. It has long been obvious to me that people who think like you “long to be wards of the state” and the idea of personal responsiblity simply escapes you.
As I stated, if you cannot get a job the government allows you to defer or forbear the loan until you become employed. However, the idea of not paying a loan you agreed to pay is IMMORAL. But I know that is probably hard for someone like you to understand — I bet you walk around Publix eating the fruit as you shop, or you steal cable from your neighbor’s house, or you drive away from the pump without paying. After all you have a fundamental right to food, entertainment, and gas; and by golly if you don’t want to pay for it then you just walk away.
AmVet - Neo-cons, they're just bad people who enjoy the suffering of others.
October 19th, 2011
9:22 am
..amvet is more his (Frank’s) type.
Now there is an intelligent rejoinder.
Did I just write intelligent?
I meant homophobic…
Apparently BHO was the real winner in last night’s “debate”.
The fake conservatives had chance after chance after chance to discuss anything specific about how they would help create jobs, which is what they ran on in 2010.
Which is the number one concern among desperate middle class Americans.
But………..zippity friggin’ doo dah.
And the loutish, coward Cain vilifies the millions of innocent American families who have been the victims – as Ron Paul noted – and glorifies the Wall Street wicked.
The flavor of the month is a good little soldier in the War on the Middle Class…
Welcome to the occupation (Trotsky)
October 19th, 2011
9:22 am
Marie: “Banks are loaning students money based on the cost of an education. But the price of a college education is set by these colleges and universities; not the banks.”
Are you not aware that in recent years a lucrative college loan segment of the private banking industry sprung up which loaned to students at usurious rates, oftentimes at for-profit schools which in turn cooked the books and used pressure tactics to increase enrollment?
“If the price of an education is too high why not go occupy a building at Harvard, NYC College, Columbia University, GSU (they own all of downtown Atlanta so just pick a building) and protest the administration?”
I agree that these institutions are largely part of the problem, part of the structure that must be overthrown. But give them time. Give them time. They’re just getting started.
Adam
October 19th, 2011
9:22 am
Marie: But you will never pay debt off by crying and complaining about the fairness or unfairness of the debt
You also won’t pay off debt by not having any income available to do so, by being given the opportunity to work towards paying it back.
Ricky B
October 19th, 2011
9:23 am
Hmmm. DC just unseated silicon valley as America’s richest city. What does that tell you?
http://Www.humanevents/article.php?id=46968
Joe Mama
October 19th, 2011
9:24 am
Steve — USA — “So your saying you can’t get a degree in this country for less than $80,000?”
If the kid in question has to live away from home (which is certainly possible if said kid lives in a rural area that’s not close to any accredited degree-granting institution), then yeah, four years of room, board, books, tuition and fees at $80K is a farking STEAL.
Adam
October 19th, 2011
9:25 am
Jim163: Yeah Jay..and now the Democrats control the senate and the Republicans are being accused of not ending debate on the presidents job bill even though the Minority leader explicitly called for a vote and was blocked by the Dem’s.
That argument might carry more water if the Republican base could be talked to in terms like that. But such an understanding of the nuances of legislation is beyond them, all they hear is whatever can fit on a bumper sticker.
Basically, the messaging machine you guys have built up is at a loss when the Democrats pull a complicated maneuver and can boil it down to a bumper sticker length phrase that supports THEIR side. If you want your electorate to see through that, you shouldn’t have spent so much time demonizing public education and dumbing down your electorate.
Jay
October 19th, 2011
9:26 am
jm, are you avoiding my question?
Peadawg
October 19th, 2011
9:26 am
“Oh FFS, place the blame where it belongs.” – Agreed. Washington and Wall Street. Period. Spread it around to everyone involved, including the President (I know it’s hard for you, punkin).
Joe Mama
October 19th, 2011
9:26 am
Scooter — “Democrat base, who seems content in overlooking Fannie and Freddie’s involvement. Of course that involvement was to inflate the bubble through their securitization and bundling of mortgage backed securities to promote HUD’s mission statement. Wall Street only played the hand they were dealt by the GSE’s and once a mortgage passed through the GSEs, it was fully backed by the American taxpayer.”
Sheer, unadulterated ignorance.
If anyone’s overlooking anything, it’s you.
Adam
October 19th, 2011
9:27 am
Ricky B: “in 2003, while the tanking minority member on the financial services committee, Frank opposed a bush administration proposal, in response to accounting scandals, for transferring oversight of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac from congress and HUD to a new agency that would be created within the treasury department”
And because of his opposition, the Republicans that voted on the measure had no choice but to vote it down. Because he made them. Or something.
Jay
October 19th, 2011
9:27 am
Joe the Plumber, I see you haven’t stepped up to explain this magical BarneyPower either.
Libertarian
October 19th, 2011
9:27 am
So………should we just let people go to the college of their choice for free? Is that the solution? The first person Jay wrote about says there are “no jobs.” There are jobs. The unemployment rate for college grads is like 4%. Sounds like that person has already given up on finding a job and they haven’t even graduated yet. Most of these people could have CHOSEN to go to a much cheaper in-state college. Again…all about the choices you make.
Joe The Plumber too.
October 19th, 2011
9:27 am
so adam, I guess quoting an article from the Boston Globe about barney in 1991 is not a straight answer. It shows that he has had twenty years of fighting any sort of regulation by barney boy.