The ‘magic button’ of economics doesn’t work

and your solution? more green liberal magic fairy dust of stimulus? or parrot the Obama lie of taxing millionaires and billionaires when he really means $250k? lets face it- obama wasted a crisis and missed his chance to shape his legacy

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Good morning to all y’all…

I the beginning of the “Religious Right”, but I don’t see how…

http://history.icanhascheezburger.com/2011/09/29/funny-pictures-history-mother-says-sex/

How the GOP wishes it was…

http://history.icanhascheezburger.com/2011/09/30/funny-pictures-history-darth-roosevelt/

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I just like this one…

http://history.icanhascheezburger.com/2011/10/01/funny-pictures-history-steve-martins-mom/

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Poor Henry!!

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“Why don’t you write something about spending cuts or entitlement reform?”

blogspot.com is ready when you are

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No Jay. I’m just saying why should it bother you now, if it didn’t bother when Bush was to blame for everything?…that was a rhetorical question. I think we all now why it didn’t bother you then.

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and sorry, meant “know” not “now”…dang bourbon!

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This is why they don’t teach students how to balance a checkbook any more…
——————

GLL: “Good Little Liberal

October 5th, 2011
7:19 am
I’ve probably made more deals on the golf course than I have ever made in a conferance room.”

What do you charge to caddy, then?

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Here’s the letter (yes the whole thing)from February 2003

Dear President Bush:

We enthusiastically endorse your economic growth and jobs proposal. It is fiscally responsible and it will create more employment, economic growth, and opportunities for all Americans. Moreover, it will improve corporate accountability and strengthen the nation’s international competitiveness.

Sincerely,

Did any of that stuff actually happen?

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Normal

Yes I am a caddie. I carry my own clubs, as do everyone I have ever played with. Other than East Hills, I don’t know of an Atlanta course that uses caddies and I certainly never played at East hills. There are probably some out there, but they would have stopped my old chevy at the parking lot.

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YAWN !

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Jay:

What do Van Jones & V.P. Biden say about the economy ?

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When is Harry Reid going to allow a vote on Obama’s wonderful jobs bill? And I thought it was those awful republicans blocking a vote……who knew?

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“Ries also acknowledged that cutting taxes on the wealthy would mean putting more of the tax burden on the lower and middle classes, mainly by broadening the sales tax to apply to items such as food. But that’s a burden they should be willing to bear, she said.

“If you’re going to put a good tax reform proposal together, it’s going to be regressive,” she said. “People are going to have to accept that.” ”

The problem is that I DON’T accept that!! A good tax reform can still be progressive AND good! Start with closing corporate loopholes that allow corporate offshoring and going back to the Clinton rates on personal income. How about lowering the corporate rate to 22% after closing the loopholes! How about eliminating the AMT for incomes under 200K?? That’s PROGRESSIVE tax reform!!

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East Lake, East Lake.

(There’s a East Hills up here)

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Talking about the economy ………………..

Headline: “PERRY POWERHOUSE: PULLS IN $17 MILLION “

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Florida, South Carolina and Tennessee, with even lower taxes

I see that Georgia and its neighboring states have not taken the passage of the 13th Amendment very well.

(oh, and Scout?)

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ty

I think I have to go with Danunzio

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Pam Geller. EEEK!

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Scout

So is Pam Geller….Who ya’ gonna’ call?

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Granny:

Biden never heard of Van Jones.

I never heard of Pam Geller.

Who ya’ gonna’ call ?

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Maybe it’s because the left has had their finger on their own magic button “Spend as much money as possible, punish those who succeed and reward those who fail” the entire time. It’s funny how you only like to mention part of the story.

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We talked about a magic button in one of my classes in college, but it didn’t have anything to do with economics and taxes. It had more to do with the female body.

Normal @ 6:59

That was sooo wrong!!!!!

I wish these people would quit propogating the myth that tax rates spur job creation. Tax rates, if they have any effect on hiring, would be a 2nd or 3rd tier factor. Demand is numero uno when it comes to job creation. Making taxes more regressive on the middle and lower classes will not spur demand. Somebody should tell these people to quit smoking that peyote and enter detox…

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Punish those who succeed? What? How?

Oh I know, we are making them sit in the corner on that uncomfortable
pile of cash reserves….

It’s no damn sleep number bed.

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hmmm, one lesson from this is that if you go to GA Tech, avoid the economics department like the plague.

Heritage Foundation is all that needs to be said in any of this. What a bunch of goofballs.

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if you go to GA Tech, avoid the economics department like the plague.

Yeah, my take-away as well.

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You’re a joke, Bookman. Try reading your own garbage occasionally through the same hyper partisan lenses you just laid on Jim.

Reminder that you are supposed to take your meds in the morning BEFORE blog commenting.

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Thirty years of Reagan-foisted, trickled down economic failures, yet the faux conservative faithful, think it has been a smashing success for America!

it has been.

For those at the very top of the income scale.

For the rest of America?

Look around, cons. You tell me.

Record unemployment. Flat-lined wages. Record bankruptcies. Millions who’ve lost their homes. Growing poverty.

Manup and admit the truth.

Based on results, you suck. And your “representatives” should be tarred, feathered and run out of Washington and Atlanta…

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Normal @ 6:59 That was sooo wrong!!!!!

But sooo funny!

Bonus points to Normal for being that sharp before 9 am. Looks like a good day on the blog……

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I think of golf as Mark Twain did…”Golf is a good walk, spoiled.”

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“It’s amazing how quickly every topic devolves into “Oh yeah, well Obama sucks!””

when all you got is nuttin’, FLING POO!

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“if you go to GA Tech, avoid the economics department like the plague.”

This must be how the “Right Wing Conspiracy” is preventing the learning of economics….

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AmVet

Ignoring the two years that Clinton had a Democratic Congress and the two years that Obama had complete control of Washington, not counting the several years of Democratic Presidents.

So you want the Republicans to own what? That they didn’t storm the capital while the Democrats had complete power. Its mindless rants like the one at 8:18 that just destroys your credibility.

You are becomeing more and more like getalife. Maybe that’s what you want. .

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“when all you got is nuttin’, FLING POO!”

or blame Reagan.

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Ganny:

But I’m asking you …………… it’s your Party !

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Who needs the “magic button” when we have the “magic negro”.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-ehrenstein19mar19,0,3391015.story

It’s Hoover’s fault!

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ty – Reagan???

dude. that’s old school.

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You can go back to your coloring book now

OOOooohhh, feel the burn.

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“Them that’s got shall get, them that’s not shall lose”.

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the two years that Obama had complete control of Washington

First this then followed up with chiding AmVet about “credibility”……

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“And before you throw the “political card” I am not a DEM-wits, REP-ugnant, nor TEA-bagger.”

I guess that just makes you a non-denominational wanker.

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Did someone mention that Obama sucks?

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Scout

Playing possum are you?

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TaxPayer – cures baldness, rheumitism, the gout and “wimmen’s complaints”

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For anyone who plays golf and haven’t seen this, this is a must:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcnFbCCgTo4

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Economic stability is a complicated dance and global economics even more so. It amazes me that people who profess to know what they are talking about can claim a single element will solve anything with a straight face. Consider a spider web with one strand stronger or weaker.

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What’s that I smell?

Oh! Good morning, GLL.

You’ve already lost. Because you are so bothered by me that you always make it personal.

Now, if you’re done telling everybody what a big wig winner you are, go shuffle off to your big wig job, OK?

And when you can interact in a civil manner let me know.

Or don’t.

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so we can deduct that carlosgvv is a tremendous walker.

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Best golf commercial.

ever

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oTMosZ76b8

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Spending bills have to start in the House, not the Senate. If the majority does not want to consider the proposed bill, it goes nowhere. Thus the lack of any budget or spending bills, just stopgap measures to keep the country running. Sounds like stalling to me. Hawks Ridge, near Ball Ground, also uses caddies.

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Poll: 1 in 3 vets say Iraq, Afghan wars a waste

Means 2 in 3 think it’s not a waste and the headline is misleading.

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Taxpayer – 8:34.

aw, man. I’m eating my lunch.

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Totally tired of the class warfare, use of the tax code to promote class warfare…time to get on board and dump the 16th amendment, the IRS, the current Tax code and pass the Fair Tax or even Mr. Caines 999 plan. that way all will pay. Tax the rich but gee Jay, not one word regarding the 51% who do not pay and not one word of those who get tax credits – money – when they do not even owe / pay taxes – and while we are at it..Barry aka Obama is touting all will have to suffer while his bride travels, at our expense, on lavish vacations / trips. how about starting at home, no lavish trips, no $1,000,000 elaborate busses to tour the country with all paid for by the tax payer…what a crock of lies!!! And his Jobs bill that “Pass it now” slogan he is touting is full of job killing crap ..gee Jay start investigating and telling the truth..This man is killing the USA…

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“Poll: 1 in 3 vets say Iraq, Afghan wars a waste”

Can you imagine sharing that with Jean Schmidt a couple of years ago?

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“Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid stepped up to stop a vote in the Senate on the president’s measure,”

I’m SHOCKED Obama failed to mention that when he was whining about the house not voting on it like a 5 year old who didn’t get the happy meal toy he wanted. This President’s behaviour is not very Presidential.

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AmVet

Have a good day, and good luck with your problem.

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Ries also acknowledged that cutting taxes on the wealthy would mean putting more of the tax burden on the lower and middle classes, mainly by broadening the sales tax to apply to items such as food. But that’s a burden they should be willing to bear, she said.

“If you’re going to put a good tax reform proposal together, it’s going to be regressive,” she said. “People are going to have to accept that.”

Freely translated – The Middle Class just needs to suck it up. I’m surprised she didn’t offer a model showing how indentured servitude is also a great way to ensure that the “job creators” aren’t unfairly taken advantage of.

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ByteMe :

Thank you for your comment.

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“His story offers a wonderful example of what I call “magic-button economics,” the tendency to explain almost anything that happens in economics and human life through the factor of tax rates on the wealthy.”

Everything that happens in human life, Jay? You pegged the hyperbole meter with that statement.

BTW, do you see a distinction between those individuals (like small business owners) who use their wealth directly to create or sustain jobs and people like Johnny Depp who, by his own recent admission, makes “stupid money” (reportedly 300 million for the Pirates of the Caribbean movies)? And, if so, do you support continuing lower tax rates for the former and a way to incentivize job creation?

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ty webb – 8:32

I do ok but I’ll never ever be in your league.

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And, if so, do you support continuing lower tax rates for the former and a way to incentivize job creation?

I wouldn’t lower their marginal rate, no. But I would give them a tax deduction for the amount they pay in payroll.

Oh, wait… they already get that.

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GLL,

Tempo.

At least for me, I’m fairly consistent when I don’t hurry my transition

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**“Class Warfare?** **We’re ready …………….. are you libs?**

Look at scout all ready to take up his bayonet and fight for…..the wealthiest among us, that borders on traiterous to the middle class. Go for it…

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P.S. to Granny:

“We’re ready …………….. are you libs. ??”

Because if it ever starts the masses won’t be able to tell a rich liberal from a rich conservative.

Out for awhile …………… be nice to each other.

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“To her credit, Ries also acknowledged that cutting taxes on the wealthy would mean putting more of the tax burden on the lower and middle classes, mainly by broadening the sales tax to apply to items such as food. But that’s a burden they should be willing to bear, she said.”

So – GOP sees nothing wrong with increasing taxes on the lower and middle class, and even says that it is a burden we are willing to bear – but – when the rest of us able minded people think that the millionaires should have increased taxes and believe that it is a burden they should be willing to bear – suddenly we have/are “wealth envy” or “class warfare” or “socialist wealth re-distributors” or any other catch phase???

Do you GOPers really see nothing wrong with this? What is wrong with you people?

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“Bush’s tax reductions were for everyone”

They didn’t reduce MY taxes. Mine didn’t change

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The liberal magic button is Keynesian spending

It doesn’t work either

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“HP CEO: job creation depends upon 1) consumer demand and 2) certainty about future costs”

And when unemployment is high, demand goes down. If the “job creators” aren’t actually CREATING JOBS they can expect lower demand.

And there IS NO CERTAINTY about future costs. None. Ever.

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Doggone/GA

October 5th, 2011
8:55 am

How?

Why?

the cuts lowered rates as apercentage if i understood it correctly along with a bunch of tax credits along the way.

Did you over pay? If so very honorable!

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“And study after study has shown that the wealthy got far more from the tax breaks than the poor.”

That ^^^^^^^^ statement is one of the problems we have in this country. Idiots make comments like that as if a tax cut should have the same effect on a person who doesn’t pay any taxes at all as it does on the person who is paying $100K in taxes. It’s just DUMB. And it’s either being repeated over and over because fools buy it or you’re one of the fools who bought it. Take your pick.

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Consumption is the sole end and purpose of all production; and the interest of the producer ought to be attended to, only so far as it may be necessary for promoting that of the consumer.

Adam Smith

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I keep reading about companies and wealthy investors being “job creators.” I’ve been in business for over 30 years and have never seen a business with an objective of “adding jobs.” We want to cut jobs and increase profits. People buying products or services result in businesses adding jobs. Lower taxes or tax credits only increase profits. Businesses don’t add jobs when they already have unused capacity, plenty of workers and inventory.

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Let’s start with some truth. The merchants in many small towns like mine closed for half a day, usually Wed. afternoon, and were then open for half a day on Sat. This was so they did not have to pay overtime. The stores were only staffed by one set of workers and were only open 40 hours.

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And put me with Harry. I never hired a worker because I had extra money, I hired when I had more business and could make more money by having another worker.

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Mick the “recovery” after the Obama stimulus would seem to indicate otherwise

And it has this nice hangover effect, like drinking s bottle of bourbon, just wait till the next morning

Romney getting the ducks in row. Obama is going to be toast

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Jm: “The liberal magic button is Keynesian spending / It doesn’t work either”

Ah, so you’re conceding the truth of the assertion.

Are you just going to throw wild claims around or are you going to provide an actual explanation for your claim as to what works and doesn’t?

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Mick,

If you look at history FDR’s policies extended the Great Depression and recovery only began when WWII started.

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jm

If obama did not have the stimulus, things would be worse, is that what you are advocating? The majority of the respected economists held the view that the stimulus was too small. That view is has now been proven correct – see joseph stigliz latest writings on the matter…

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Harry @ 9:04

Beware. Talking like that will get you labeled as a heretic here.

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And on the 8th day the wealthy created jobs.”

- God (a.k.a The wealthy in their own collective humble opinion)

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I actually was a caddy when I was a teen in the late 70’s. The wealthy members still showed up on Thursdays and the impression on my young mind was they came to consume vast quantities of booze.

Breaking news…..The protesters on Wall Street now have an 11th demand.

11. No Mother shall be allowed to tell their kids to clean up their room, even if they are 28.

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mountain man

That is revisionist history and I’m not buying your version. Here’s a question for you: We have been at war for ten years now, how come that hasn’t rescued our economy????

Cheney & bush should apoligize for getting us into an unprovoked war costing trillions, 5000 dead, 30,000 severly injured. He has some gonads, that dickster…

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Recon: “Class warfare and berate GWB/Cheney. BTW…Cheney has a good point, Obama should apologize for criticizing the Bush administration on water boarding. He should also apologize for condemning the Iraq war.”

What’s “class warfare” ?

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Here’s a little “magic button” of logic/common sense for you: If I were taxed at 90% over a certain income level, once I reached that level, I’d stop working too. Why would I spend time at work when I’ll get nothing for it? There are more enjoyable pastimes to spend time on (like playing golf).

The liberal mind is amazing.

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Trotsky. Neither are “magic buttons”

I didn’t say either were 100% ineffectual

Mick stiglitz is a liberal. Economics isn’t a science. There’s lots of disagreement about the appropriate solutions

Keynesianism doesn’t work in a global flat hot crowded economy

Any stimulus will solely benefit china

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We would agree that the “magic button” of economics does not work, nor more than does the magic button of psychology or sociology or political science or archeology. Anyone who grasps economics realizes that it is the study of incentives, and the effects of same on people.

A rational economist today observes that the bureaucratic clamps on the economy have taken effect, and the prospect of higher taxes will affect incentives. Any rational soul, not just an economist, appreciates that employers will not add employees when they face a new and unknown “per employee” healthcare tax.

Magic buttons are the province of the Keynesians, who believed that a massive stimulus is what was needed. Pumped poison into the economic body, that’s what they did, in introducing $3 trillion of new wasteful spending.

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Magic buttons are the province of the Keynesians, who believed that a massive stimulus is what was needed

And those who don’t really understand Keynes continue to pound on him without actually knowing whether they are hitting the target.

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Any stimulus will solely benefit china

Not true. Build me 1000 Hoover Dams and lets see who it benefits.

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Jm: “Keynesianism doesn’t work in a global flat hot crowded economy”

In other words Keynesianism doesn’t work without a vast underclass of exploitedable workers to drive up profits.

“Mick stiglitz is a liberal”

Neoliberal actually, as is everyone in the American political class (except a couple of rebels like Bernie Sanders).

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“A rational economist today observes that the bureaucratic clamps on the economy have taken effect, and the prospect of higher taxes will affect incentives”

Like Ms. Ries?

Who was so demonstrably wrong?

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Politico

1/2 of obama’s 2012 money has come from wall st

Occupy wall st must be against obama

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Only the conned could believe that we can wage two wars and give out a prescription drug company benefit and pay for it all with tax cuts.

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Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)

October 5th, 2011
9:12 am

More of the same. Class warfare and berate GWB/Cheney. BTW…Cheney has a good point, Obama should apologize for criticizing the Bush administration on water boarding.

Recon,
After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: “I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure.” He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. “Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning,” he replied, “just gasping between life and death.”

Nielsen’s experience was not unique. Nor was the prosecution of his captors. After Japan surrendered, the United States organized and participated in the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, generally called the Tokyo War Crimes Trials. Leading members of Japan’s military and government elite were charged, among their many other crimes, with torturing Allied military personnel and civilians. The principal proof upon which their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call waterboarding.

In this case from the tribunal’s records, the victim was a prisoner in the Japanese-occupied Dutch East Indies:

A towel was fixed under the chin and down over the face. Then many buckets of water were poured into the towel so that the water gradually reached the mouth and rising further eventually also the nostrils, which resulted in his becoming unconscious and collapsing like a person drowned. This procedure was sometimes repeated 5-6 times in succession.

The United States (like Britain, Australia and other Allies) pursued lower-ranking Japanese war criminals in trials before their own tribunals.

Recon, why should we be allowed to waterboard when we have prosecuted other countries for war crimes for doing the same thing?

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The great depression lasted a decade despite massive Keynesian intervention

Also not intended to be a factual statement. See my 9:18.

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WWII the largest jobs program the USA ever had….

and with money borrowed to boot!

No, no, no Granny- that was Cheney’s mindset. Pls go take a shot of wheat grass and walk around the block.

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Wow. Good tax reform has to be regressive (i.e. punitive against the working and middle class) by definition? It’s saddening the extent to which the lunatics have taken over the GOP asylum. May the Founding Fathers forgive us.

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“Not true. Build me 1000 Hoover Dams and lets see who it benefits.”Byteme

Build me 1000 Solyndras and lets see who it benefits.

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But that’s a burden they should be willing to bear, she said.

The corporatist’s modern spin on “Let them eat cake.”

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Sure didn’t take the Right long to veer off on many tangents to avoid addressing the point that lowering taxes on the wealthy and business will not have the effect the Heritage Foundation projects, as borne out by what happened on the national level.

Ignorance is blisssssssss.

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You will get a very short termp bump as we have just seen with stimulus 1 but it came at the cost of a suffocating debt burden which in the long term makes things worse.

Amazing how the self-proclaimed economist who tells “liberals to read a history book” conflates the stimulus with the responsibility for the entire “suffocating debt burden”. You would think that someone who know the history of the “debt burden” before the snark about reading a book. I am certain Amazon can recommend some history book on the debt prior to Obama’s inauguration.

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mountain

Two economists? Their word is the final verdict? Dream on and while you are buying that garbage, talk to some survivors of the depression who worked for the wpa or the ccc, they might have a different take…

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The liberal premise has always been that society owes you something or that everyone should have an equal amount of wealth just to be “fair”. Society, the evil CEOs, those demonic jet travelers, Warren Buffett, those vile Wall Street gazillionaires…… all are to blame for this “iniquity” that the wealth envy liberals prattle on about. And are you going to be any happier when you possess it all? This nirvana that you profess does not exist, not in pragmatic terms, at least. There will always be someone with more than you have. Someone who is willing to work 18hr/day to achieve a dream will always prevail over those who sit back and put forth a minimum amount of effort for a maximum return. Get over it, liberals.

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here’s a memo, folks; words like “job creator” are distractions. they are foisted upon Americans so that we sit around and blog about who is responsible for the 20 million Americans out of work, and who is responsible for fixing the problem. jobs are not “created”. jobs are produced by the demand for goods and services. the problem with our current economic model is; we have shifted from a manufacturing/producing economy, to a service economy, and the lion’s share of those on the service side (bankers, traders, hedge funds) do not provide services to the “market” so much as they shuffle paper and DERIVE (key word) wealth out of what are essentially card tricks. AND the double whammy is; the bulk of this wealth (even the billions invested in companies like John Deere, Ford, Motorolla, GE*, gets siphoned off because many of these “manufacturers” have become storefront operations, with all of the manufacturing now being done in China, Indonesia, Nicaragua, etc.). AND this wealthy is generally taxed at a lower rate (15%) than earned wages; AND is is generally hoarded or removed from circulation in terms of the economy. we’re approaching the tipping point, folks.

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Mountain Man

Lee Ohanian?

See first page and letter to Bush.

This guy signed it too.

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Keep up,

You need some help with your thinking skills. W raised the debt level from roughly 4.5 trillion in 8 years from around 5 trillion to 10. Since Obama came in the debt is now at 14 trillion in less than 3 years. Another 4 trillion in under 3 years with more debt behind piled on a significantly faster clip than under W. The FY 2011 projected deficit alone was forecast at 1.74 trillion dollars and the Obama administration has forecast huge deficits through 2020. Is there something about simple math that your mind cannot understand? I can’t make this any simpler for you.

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Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke reiterated that Congress should not cut spending while the economy is weak, telling Congress yesterday that deep spending cuts would imperil the economic recovery by driving down aggregate demand for good and services when the private sector is too weak on its own.

From ThinkProgress.org

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Then prove the 2 UCLA economists who came to the same conclusion as me wrong?

Yawn. So you feel you’re in the same league as them now Doom? hehehheehehe.

Perhaps you should talk to the person heading the Fed who spent most of his life studying the depression and coming to different conclusions. But I’m sure you’ll dismiss his input, just because you disagree with him.

So you tell us why their conclusion that Hoover was right to do absolutely nothing somehow cut the length of the depression — which was 3 years in and getting worse by the time FDR came around.

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kayaker 71

October 5th, 2011
9:38 am

The liberal premise has always been that society owes you something or that everyone should have an equal amount of wealth just to be “fair”.

That is a total BS, “straw man” argument. Can you support this mythology?

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Laugh at Rachel Maddow all you want, but bottom line, she tells the truth. GOP conservatives fear her, which is why they mock her and cast dispersions on her sexuality, like any of that really mattered. Just another smoke screen.

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kayaker71, you are so far off message it is disturbing. there is no “liberal premis” anymore than there is a “neo-conservative” premise that bribery, corruption and influence peddling are the only way for private enterprise to gain access to the trillions of public dollars “earmarked” for highway construction, warfighting, homeland security/law enforcement, the court system (local, state, federal), fire departments/EMT, etc., etc.

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doom

Keep repeating your lie about obama and the debt enough times and you actually believe it. We’ve broken this down time and again, yet you just keep on heaving…..

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When I think of many federally funded projects (can you say Boston tunnel?), the word “boondoggle” comes to mind.

Dude, the Big Dig was run by the state of Mass., not the Feds, who ran the Hoover Dam project. Yes, the Feds provided some of the money — same as they did for I-285 — but that’s not the same thing.

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kayaker 71

“The liberal premise has always been that society owes you something or that everyone should have an equal amount of wealth just to be “fair”. ”

Who are you citing for that little nugget of ‘what is”?

You do understand what Pres Obama means when he speaks of ensuring equal opportunity, not equal outcomes, don’t you?

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GOP conservatives fear her, which is why they mock her and cast dispersions on her sexuality

Yuck. I don’t like the “fear” argument from a liberal any more than when conservatives use it to fend off attacks from Palin and Bachmann.

Better to say they don’t have an answer for her well-researched opinions.

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Doom, your critical thinking skills there at Great Beneficial are not so hot. The stimulus did not create all of the debt or even all of the increase after Obama took office. So really I guess you just proved your “economic critical thinking analysis” totally suffers from your failures to understand the simple concept of the debt. How much simple can we make it for you?

But nice attempt at an insult that really just demonstrates clearly your own weakness.

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Just the facts ma’am.

Those who think that the stock market crash in October 1929 is what caused the huge unemployment rates of the 1930s will have a hard time reconciling that belief with the data in that table.

Although the big stock market crash occurred in October 1929, unemployment never reached double digits in any of the next 12 months after that crash. Unemployment peaked at 9 percent, two months after the stock market crashed– and then began drifting generally downward over the next six months, falling to 6.3 percent by June 1930.

This was what happened in the market, before the federal government decided to “do something.”

If more government regulation of business is the magic answer that so many seem to think it is, the whole history of the 1930s would have been different. An economic study in 2004 concluded that New Deal policies prolonged the Great Depression. But the same story can be found on one page in “Out of Work.”

While the market produced a peak unemployment rate of 9 percent– briefly– after the stock market crash of 1929, unemployment shot up after massive federal interventions in the economy. It rose above 20 percent in 1932 and stayed above 20 percent for 23 consecutive months, beginning in the Hoover administration and continuing during the Roosevelt administration.

As Casey Stengel used to say, “You could look it up.” It is all there on that one page.

Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://washingtonexaminer.com/node/75086#ixzz1ZunSqjln

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Thulsa Doom

October 5th, 2011
9:41 am

Thulsa, is it really so hard to understand that during an economice slowdown, revenues will decrease and expenses will rise even if you pass NO new spending proposals? Bush ballooned the deficit with unfunded wars, unfunded tax cuts and an unfunded medicare drug benefit. All of those costs continue to occur and the costs of the tax cuts and drug benefits continue to rise. Should Obama be blamed for the rising cost of the Bush tax cuts and drug benefit? Can you explain to us how Obama raised the deficit to the extent that you blame him?

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First, due to heavy regulations, none of the currently proposed projects will be shovel ready in the near future by which time, private money may be cheaper and more readily available. Second, you may be surprised to know that many folks making $50K actually live within their means and have normal savings patterns.

That’s one reason the infrastructure investment bank is so critical — it’s designed to provide long-term funds to these kinds of projects… and is a Republican idea that they now won’t vote for. And do tell us what regulations prevent the DOT from replacing bridges that are crumbling, rebuilding schools, and so on? I’ll bet you can’t show me ONE situation where a crumbling bridge was not being replaced because of a regulation.

As for $50K, yes, but 500 people making $50K will spend a lot more than one CEO who makes $25 million.

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Armed Liberal, and whom do you think butters Bernanke’s bread (alliteration reas its ugly head in a discussion of economic policy)? and therein lies the Catch-22; we are in this mess because of out of control (drunken sailor) spending on the part of politicians; but we (and the people who OWN Bernanke, and OWN Obama, and OWN Congress), know that if spending is cut, or even scrutinized; the private sector will lose TRILLIONS in revenue. again folks, be it Section 8 funds, Medicair, DoD, Homeland Security, Education, etc., etc.; all of this “government spending” ends up on private enterprise balance sheets. in reality, corporate America is a parasite that lives on America. for 40-50 years it has been feeding off Americans. the relationship used to be symbiotic (each benefits), but it is now parasitic. sorry for mixing English, Economics and Biology, but I hope you get the picture.

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“So, RB, was Jesus an idiot too?”

What a complete idiot you are!! This parable would only fit if the woman cast nothing into the offering, chastized the wealthy for not putting in more (demanded it even), and then took a nice chunk of the offering home for herself (demanded it even). Then the parable would fit what’s going on in this country today with you whiners absolutely giddy at the thought of getting your hands on rich peoples money. You’re pathetic.

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Keep up,

Please show me where I said that that the stimulus created “all of the debt” as you claim I did. Or show me where I stated much of the increase of the debt. I made no such claim. Merely that the stimulus just added more debt. Obama’s profligate spending which has nothing to do with the stimulus is just more of the problem. Solyndra ring a bell? In addition to lacking critical thinking skills you need some help with your reading comprehension skills. Don’t worry keep. Doomy is here to help you.

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A Romney presidency is going to be very very interesting

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Don’t tread,

Same with nuclear power of which a new plant hasn’t been built in several decades. Those green libruls won’t be happy till we’re living in the stone age. Which makes you wonder about their true intentions and who really is behind the green movement. Old commies from a discredited economic philosophy perhaps?

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Recon

Playing a little fast and loose with the definition of ‘assassinate’ aren’t you?

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Strawman — “HP CEO: job creation depends upon 1) consumer demand and 2) certainty about future costs. I believe what he says.”

Except there’s one little thing he’s not telling you. Capital expenditure depends on those two things too. And capital expenditures are WAY up over the last few months.

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I remember when Ryan introduced his Yellow brick roadmap. It didn’t take long for him to back off his plan once people, other than the conned, found out that his laffable projections of increased tax revenues were based on sustained unemployment rates below four percent. Of course, the fact that his plan also robbed from those on Medicare in order to fund yet another tax cut for the wealthiest while not lowering the national debt but raising it instead, didn’t help much either.

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OK ragnar, it’s 9:57, and the liquor store doesn’t open to noon. please don’t post anymore, lest I start drinking rubbing alcohol to cope with your economic theories. and as far as the “class warfare” and “spread the wealth is socialism” hand wringers; (most of) the protesters on Wall Street are not socialists. by “spread the wealth” they mean, don’t hoard it; because when “wealth” is removed from the economy; the whole machine locks up (think of capital as fuel/lubricant). most Americans recognize that there are class distinctions; but the status quo, with 95% of the “wealth” owned by the top 2% (or whatever), the system is unsustainable. it’s not so much about “handouts” or “entitlements” as it is STOP MOVING JOBS OVERSEAS, and re-invest in America. the math is so profoundly easy to understand, it is amazing.

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Doomy, you might want to go back and read your posts. So far you have made some broad sweeping claims without any nuanced analysis of the debt or attribution that there are separate components. But its a nice effort at more dishonest discourse especially when there is the failed snark of “liberals need to read history books”, etc.

Thanks for the offer of “help” but I prefer more traditional sources and not some maniac who thinks he is zeus in speedos and wifebeater [shirt, remember?] and that women should worship him. No telling how far the delusions you profess have led you astray.

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Don’t forget,

You have some valid points. Its not entirely Obama’s fault and certainly as you point out there will be decreasing revenues as part of an economic downturn- its only natural. My point is that in response to this Obama’s policies are making things worse, not better and that due to decreasing revenues he should also gradually begin to decrease the reckless spending. Bush deserves credit too for the debt situation but the Bush card is all played out and when you bring W into the conversation it just sounds like the old Dem talking points. Especially when you talk about the Part d drug program which is about the only govt entitlement program that I can think of that came in way under budget. It has been a very successful program. And what you conveniently forget is that the Dems proposal for part D was more expensive and expansive. Last on that point is that if the Dems didn’t like it they could have ended it when Obama had both houses of Congress. My question to is why didn’t they?

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TaxPayer

If I recall correctly, that Heritage Foundation projection of the unemployment rate we were going to achieve had never happened, or maybe happened for one year, since the end of WWII.

And some people take that outfit seriously……

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Trotsky,

You are free to pursue any opportunity in this country that you please. It happens to be one of the few countries in the world where freedom to excel still exists, free of a social system that rewards the wrong people. “A grotesquely disfigured lack of opportunity”…… sounds like whining to me. It’s tough out there….. no one said it was easy. It is for a select few that are willing to stay the course. “A hoarding of wealth among a tiny elite”……. did you ever stop realize that 75% of those “tiny elite” were Democrats? And they don’t want you screwing around with with they have either.

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ragnar, interesting advice coming from a character of fiction. perhaps yous should replace Atlas Shrugged with William Manchester’s The Glory and the Dream. given the choice, I will take Jim Beam or Jose Cuervo over Ayn Rand any day of the week.

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“Last on that point is that if the Dems didn’t like it they could have ended it when Obama had both houses of Congress. My question to is why didn’t they?”

T.D. you really don’t expect a real answer to that question, do you?

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i am willing to offer myself as a test case…i will play 5 days a week, pay no taxes, and will not stop either until the economy gets better. okay, so that wil prove nothing but at least my game will get better and my wife wont have to look at my face nearly as much.

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My question to is why didn’t they?

Because they only a filbuster proof majority for six months. After that the Repubs filabustered almost everything from the House. A record 112 filbusters for the Senate from Jan. 2009 to Jan. 2011.

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Thulsa Doom

October 5th, 2011
9:50 am

Thulsa, the unemployment rate reflects the accumulation of job losses. Not sure why you can’t grasp this.

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Assassinate’s used for political killings. Not for warfare. “Von Richtofen shot down one of the leading British aces’ vs ‘Von Richtofen assassinated one of the leading British aces.”

Then Snoopy took over and kicked some Von Richtofen butt.

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Recon,

No. I really didn’t expect an answer on that last one. It was just rhetorical. Now Larry did at least attempt to answer it. But then again does Larry really believe the dems even intended to withdraw the part D drug benefit? Especially given the fact that the Dems part D drug proposal would have been more expansive and expensive?

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kayaker71, do you actually believe “freedom” exists? if so, who “owns” it? who is responsible for the manes of production/distribution of freedom? that sounds like socialism, with freedom being a commodity and not a concept. are Americans “free” to not pay taxes (ask Willie Nelson, Wesley Snipes). are Americans free to kill each other (ask OJ Simpson, Troy Davis, and/or Casey Anthony)? are Americans free to shout “fire in a croweded theater”? how ’bout your Second Amendment? Americans have the right to bear arms, except when they do not? Why was Merrill Lynch (Bank of America) too big to fail, but Lehman Brothers was not? Why was AIG bailed out (by proxy GoldmanSachs), but Bear Sterns and Washington Mutual basically liquidated? you might as well believe in Santa Claus (or in rag’s case; John Galt).

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On “job creation.”

Exactly when was the term “job creator” coined, in reference to the persons providing the capital? We’ve come to the point where the only accepted view is that Mr. Moneybags with all the capital simply wills the “job” into existence, like God did with the world in Genesis, and therefore we should revere Mr. Moneybags as if he were divine. That’s what the “1%” wants the rest of us to believe, at any rate.

What we’re failing to remember is that a “job” is like a three-legged table. Take away one or more of the legs, and the table topples. No single leg can support the table without the equal contributions from the other two.

One leg is certainly the capital provided by Mr. Moneybags. S/he provides the capital used to build the factory (from E. Warren’s recent example), or to establish the internet start-up, etc.

The second leg is labor — which is just as vital to the enterprise as the financing. The laborer, in business for himself, sells his service (comprised of his education, ability, experience, expertise), etc. to the capitalist, who is either unwilling or unable to do the work required to produce the product or service by himself.

The third leg of the “job” table is economic demand. Quite simply, without a customer base to cater to, there is no job. The product or service is worthless, and the “job” evaporates.

Right now, our economy is teetering on collapse because it is overwhelmingly slanted towards the interests of Mr. Moneybags. The other two legs of the table are being choked and squeezed by policies and laws that funnel capital away from the laborer and the consumer, into the hands of the corporatist elites.

“Funnel” is an apt word. My 12 years spent as a corporate tax accountant (and following the legislative process at both the federal and state/local level) has led me to envision the tax code as a sort of upside-down funnel, directing capital ever upwards. And that capital, increasingly, is being invested, or simply hidden, overseas.

The end result is that American laborers have seen their wages stagnate, their benefits evaporate and their ability to save for retirement dwindle away. Because Americas laborers are also largely her consumers, demand for goods and services is also stagnating.

Fundamentally, what we have been witnessing over the last 20 – 30 years is the growth of a Corporatist sociopolitical/economic system that tramples on the interests of laborers and consumers, and favors those of the financiers and Wall St. money changers. Only this time, we don’t need Jesus to come turn over their table… with two legs of the table under constant attack, it is toppling on its own.

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Paul,

Assassinate: to injure or destroy, to murder or destroy by sudden or secret attack. Water boarding: an enhanced interrogation technique not intended to kill or cause serious injury.

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kayaker: “It happens to be one of the few countries in the world where freedom to excel still exists, free of a social system that rewards the wrong people”

That’s been eroding for a long time now. We’re now approaching a decisive phase.

By the way what exactly do you mean by “system that rewards the wrong people”?

I think many Americans would agree that a system that sees teachers laid off and Wall St. hedge fund barons pull in billion-plus incomes is one that is seriously out of what when it comes to “rewarding” the right people, don’tcha think? Or are you the sort who wants to throw his lot in with the über-wealthy even though you know you’ll never join them? You do this just because you look below you and see the unwashed, mostly brown masses advancing and that strikes anxiety into your heart, so you move to embrace those well above your station even though it doesn’t really make sense based on your interests.

“hoarding of wealth among a tiny elite”……. did you ever stop realize that 75% of those “tiny elite” were Democrats?”

What’s your data on that? How do you know that?

Supposing it is true, what does that prove? The Democratic party is almost equally in the pocket of big wealth in this country as the GOP, hence our crisis, as I point out here repeatedly, not that my repeated reminders of this basic fact can penetrate some of the thick skulls who populate this blog.

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Now, now, Jay. Let’s not have you and Doom fighting.

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Jay, I keep wanting to click, “Link” on certain posts, thinking it is a “Like” button.

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“I will pull the “Bush housing bubble” card, which as the data demonstrate was much much larger.” You can pull it, however, your problem is that the Democrats were at least as guilty.

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Aw, shucks, Joe. That’s right kind of you to say. Perhaps one day I’ll start one, if I can find the time. Back in the day, there was a single “tax season” in March and April…. these days the “busy” part of the year tends to last 12 months or more.

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RB — “Ok, Joe. Let’s do a simple math exercise and see if you can keep up. If Lowwageearner currently pays $0.00 in taxes and you give him a 10% tax break, how much more money will Lowwageearner have to spend as a result of the tax cut?”

Let’s do a reading exercise and see if YOU can keep up. I *clearly* stated that I was speaking of low-wage TAXPAYING earners, and said so in my post. Your construction plainly ignores that. Did you simply breeze through my post and miss that? Or are you predicating your argument on a position I didn’t make and which I *specifically* disavowed?

“How many times do we have to do the same math problem expecting the result to be more money in Lowwageearners pocket before we figure out the person who’s paying Lowwageearners “fair share” for him will allways get more benefit from a tax cut than he will? ”

You clearly did not read my post. Please go back and reread it.

“Are you dense?”

You clearly didn’t read what I posted. You need to go back, reread it — especially the parts you missed — and address the specific point I argued.

No, I’m not dense. But I am beginning to think that you are, and that you are dishonest, too. However, I remain hopeful that you will demonstrate yourself to be both honest and quick on the uptake.

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Recon — “You can pull it, however, your problem is that the Democrats were at least as guilty.”

Yes, because the Democrats were SO in charge from 2001-2006.

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Paul,

Challenges on semantics doesn’t win your argument. When one action extinguishes life while another only extracts intelligence, while allowing life to continue presents a considerable difference.

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Dear Jay @ 10:19, three errors in your analysis. (1) Use monthly figures, the trends are easier to spot. (2) Consider private market employment as a benchmark, rather than using bureaucrats to pad your numbers. (3) As to the Clinton era, you confuse coincidence and causation. The Clinton era growth is more attributable to NAFTA and welfare reform than tax rate increases. Surely even you would concede that there is no rational reason that a tax rate increase would stimulate economic growth?

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Last night, something very interesting happened here.

A couple of the self-destructive neo-cons – Stevie ray and kayaker 71 – admitted that they have no problem at all with the fact that wages for the vast percentage of American households have flat-lined over the past forty years. Or that the first decade of this century was a “lost decade” – the typical American household made LESS money than they did ten years earlier.

I salute them for their honesty. Even if it is insane.

I now think it is time for the rest of you in the right wing to do the same. And acknowledge that the destruction of the middle class is part and parcel of your economic vision as forwarded by your representatives in Washington and Atlanta.

As is the case with alcoholism or drug-abuse, admitting you have a serious problem is the first step in recovering.

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Gator Joe – “Big Business are opposed to higher taxes or spending for essential services, that is, so long as others in economic strata below them are doing the paying and not them.”

For those that still want to play the Wealth Envy card, please read and re-read this:

“that cutting taxes on the wealthy would mean putting more of the tax burden on the lower and middle classes, mainly by broadening the sales tax to apply to items such as food. But that’s a burden they should be willing to bear”

By asking anyone in the middle or lower class to continue feeding them,the upper elite must be met with a resounding F#CK YOU! But that’s a burden they should be willing to bear.

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Back to the original topic: How did Georgia get so drunk on the TP so fast? Some doctors’ offices still close on Thursdays. Some even open on Saturdays. Wonder how Master Beach would explain those away. And Ries has gone from nowhere to total stupidity within just a few years of her foray into the public affairs of Georgia. If she knew anything about economics, she’d realize that the first two mega-doses of corporate tax relief in the past decade didn’t do one dime’s bit of good for our economy and more. And didn’t stop the right’s whining about having to pay too much in taxes.

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RB from Gwinnett: “Let’s do a simple math exercise and see if you can keep up. If Lowwageearner currently pays $0.00 in taxes”

A little slow with the wakey wakey this morning?

Pays $0.00 in taxes? What the hell does that mean?

There is no such thing.

Oh, unless it’s the growing class of high earners who pay zero income tax on incomes over $200,000 according to that left wing rag Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-14/high-income-no-tax-returns-almost-doubled-in-2008-irs-says.html).

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Butch Cassidy
October 5th, 2011
10:26 am

I’m a CPA who deals in facts and evidence. If others can convince me with facts that a “job” is a product of ONLY the capitalist and not also the laborer and the consumer, and that the capitalist is the ONLY vital part of our economy and that the laborer and consumer don’t matter, then I’ll take what they say seriously.

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To see Jay Bookman’s economic theories in action check out Illinois

http://illinoispolicy.org/blog/blog.asp?ArticleSource=4429

They have raised taxes on everything that can be taxed and their economy is in the tank and headed straight down.

What’s the solution? First, put an American in the White House who believes in capitalism. Second, round up all the illegal immigrants and send them packing. Third, drill for oil everywhere it’s found in the USA. Fourth, start building nuclear plants to replace all fossil fuel sources of electricity. Fifth, make the entire country a right to work environment.Sixth, repeal Marxist Medicine. Seventh, just sit back and relax and everything will be all right.

As the former presidential candidate Micheal Dukakis said: A fish rots from the head. And the stench coming from the White House would gag a maggot.

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T. Foxtrot — “A little slow with the wakey wakey this morning?”

I *specifically* told him that I was talking about low-wage *taxpaying* earners and he blew right past it. I don’t think he reads things very closely before he posts.

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Doom — “Now before you say I’m “cherrypicking” let me kindly point out that the growth rates were decent growth rates up until the recession hit in 2007.”

You’ve already admitted on another thread that it’s cherrypicking to stop your analysis of the Bush tax cuts in 2007.

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Joe Mama – ” I don’t think he reads things very closely before he posts.”

I think you’re giving him too much credit in that you actually believe he reads.

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“In your preferred five-year period after the ‘03 cuts again pushed the “magic button,” i.e. 2004-2008, real GDP growth averaged a paltry 2.3 percent (it would of course be much lower if we include 2009, but I’m cutting you yet another break here.)”

Jay,

You’re being misleading yet again. The tax cuts certainly worked up until the housing meltdown brought about economic recession. But then again I suppose you think that’s all Bush’s fault. If you look at economic growth rates when the tax rates were fully realized in May of 03 up until the recession of 07 growth rates were respectable. You chose to include 07 and 08 numbers which is fair enough but of course we both know that the recessionary numbers are going to skew the results of the numbers between May of 03 and 07.

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There is a magic button for economics. It’s called profit.

For years the stated goal of the democrats has been that they were going to go after those profits.

Companies failing to grow profits do not hire.

It’s that simple.

To ignore that simple fact will not make it untrue.

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Recon — “I was only trying to help you out as it was obvious that you were unaware as to which party controlled Congress during Bush’s second term.”

And you seem to be unaware as to *when* that happened. That’s why I said “2001-2007.” Bush took office in 2001. The Democrats were seated as the majority in 2007.

Perhaps you should pay greater attention to detail in your own posts rather than trying to find mistakes in the posts of others, Recon.

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Amazing how quickly the left defends the loser economics of Obozo…This administration acts like a teenager who found Mom’s purse on payday. But wait aren’t these the same crybabies that complained when Bush bought toilet paper for the White House, or maybe the same people who still blame Bush for everything that they do wrong?

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Isn’t it great how guys like Del conveniently choose to forget that we executed people for torturing our guys, back in the day?

I’m sorry, did I call it “torture?” I guess I should use Del’s PC term–”[alleged] intelligence extraction.”

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Obozonomics – “Amazing how quickly the left defends the loser economics of Obozo…”

Amazing how quickly somone like Obozonomics defends the position that as a middle class taxpayer, he should be appreciative of the upper class for allowing him to be financially raped.

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Well, seems in relation to taxes, Obama is painting some of his party into a corner with his job plan express……….”pass this bill” currently doesn’t have the votes to get through the Senate, and forcing his “side” to vote in favor of tax increases is not sitting well with some dems sitting on the re-election hot seat………………

Should be interesting to watch…………

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Heritage experts are simply members of the world’s oldest profession.

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The stoopid is strong in here today.

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“No wealth envy here, I just despise their monster self-interest, and greed at the expense of others, especially the poor.”

A valid sentiment as long as one can understand that self-interest and greed are not contained to one end of the spectrum………if not, it’s still more than likely envy.

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“…are only victims of their own selves.”

The obvious problem, Stevie is that you never have the first fact to back up your slogans.

Here are a couple for you to consider once again irrationally and completely disregard.

We are talking about 80% of Americans.

EIGHTY PERCENT.

That is the number of we the working people, who built this country, that earn less income, in adjusted inflation dollars, than they did in the 1970s.

Even though their productivity has doubled.

And you think that a) this is the normal and proper evolution of American capitalism and b) that those millions and millions and millions of Americans all did it to themselves.

I would like to see more of such honesty among you far right wingers,

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As Dick Armey said, “Clearly, this is a job-killer in the short-run. The impact on job creation is going to be devastating.”

fortunately, Armey was run out of town on a rail and never heard from again!

oh, wait…

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kayaker 71
October 5th, 2011
9:58 am

“What makes you think that can dictate to any business in a free society what they pay their CEOs? It is none of your damned business….. you don’t have any right to dictate their payroll structure anymore than I do.”

Actually….we ALL do….with our purchasing power!! If a corporation produces a product that fills the public need….the public purchases said product….and said company is profitable, the CEO’s pay is based on that profit created by fulfilling the consumer need!!

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I suggest enhanced interrogations’ for the job creator’s until they start creating jobs.

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AmVet, so now you are stooping to name calling and the fun ceases. I’m not sure what your solution is to your less than credible position that the government can do anything to change your inflation adjusted fact. Did you include union members and overpaid government workers in your calculations? Did you include those whose inflation adjusted income are result of obsolesence of the service or product they produced? Do you include the fact that the wealth of this class so discriminated against (those who lived within their means that is…) actually increased dramatically due to 401K and pensions adjusted for inflation not to mention historic record of housing appreciation since the 1970’s? Point here is that you and all those complaining have a choice, due to capitalism, to change their situation instead of waiting on others, government in particular to change it for you…..it won’t happen. Take responsibility for yourself and don’t assume all of this “affected” class are in the same boat that you suggest.

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St. Louis

“I suggest enhanced interrogations’ for the job creator’s until they start creating jobs.”

We don’t participate in that kind of barbaric behavior any more. Maybe Obama will do the democratic thing and launch thermal missiles from a drone and burn them and their families alive while they eat their dinner. it the more kind and just thing to do.

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“I already see you trying to pull that “Clinton tech bubble” card out of your back pocket, so let me save you the trouble. Should you attempt it, I will pull the “Bush housing bubble” card, which as the data demonstrate was much much larger.”- JAY

JAY,

We can go that route and I can continue busting you up some more using your own data.

The economic defense of the Clinton tax hikes does not hold up against the historical facts. The economy did exhibit strong economic growth during the 1990s, but rapid growth did not occur soon after the tax hike—it came much later in the decade, when Congress cut taxes. After the 1993 tax hike, the economy actually slowed to a point below what one would expect, considering the once-in-a-generation favorable economic climate that existed at the time.

As for the overall economic recovery—that started well before President Clinton took office. In January 1993, the economy was in the 22nd month of expansion following the recession from July 1990 to March 1991.

Meanwhile, using data you provided a week or 2 ago the recession Bush inherited officially started in March of 2001- a mere 40 days after Bush came into office.

And if you want to talk about Obama we can use data you provided in that controversial graph you posted a couple of months ago regarding job losses. In that graph it showed precisely the Bush recession of 07 and it showed precisely where job losses bottomed out and when was that? Yep. Go back and look it up Jay. Job losses bottomed out in Jan of when Obama came into office meaning he came into office at the very bottom and about the only place to go was up. That’s some very fortuitous timing wouldn’t you say? So he caught the very bottom and less than 3 years later he still managed to muck everything up all over again.

So to recap Clinton inherited an economy that was in its 22nd month of expansion, Bush inherited an economy that was sliding into recession 40 days after he came into office, and Obama had the good fortune of inheriting a deep recession that began way back in mid 2007 I think and a recession which had already bottomed out, particularly in terms of job losses and the only way to go was up. Go ahead Jay. Look it up. I’m just using data you have provided.

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Well it certainly seems that Ms. Ries has got her ‘conservative think tank’ talking points down pat. In fact if she’s yet another scion of the Al Ries clan of huckster/snake-oil salesmen(& women) then it’s patently obvious where she’s coming from. The sole role of The Heritage Foundation and their ilk, is to figure out ways for the ‘private sector’ to suck the money out of the ‘public sector’ and put it their ‘off-shore’ accounts, and they’ve managed to accomplish that very well.

I compare our current financial issue – the tax stuff that is – to tooth-paste. You squeeze it from the bottom and when the bottom has been squeezed out, then you have to get it from the only place that’s left with anything to use to brush your damned teeth with.

There are plenty of reasons why we got into this fix, but again I say the only way out, and the answer to the continuing question the ‘right’ keeps asking about what do these ‘Occupy Wall Streeters’ want, is one, final, Hail Mary – namely, complete overhaul of our political campaign system with dramatic reductions in both the length and depth of campaigns themselves, cost-based rates from the media for any political advertising, no ‘third party’ or special interest group political advocacy/political advertising…AND PUBLIC FINANCING of campaigns. combined with the most important element of the process, the complete elimination of all campaign contributions from any source – individual, PAC, corporation, foundations, anything – and if the Supreme Court tries to stop it claiming that it’s against the Constitutional right to free speech, then impeach their asses – just before we amend the Constitution. Fact is folks, so long as we allow ‘legalized bribery’ of our elected officials – right and left – this is the mess we’re gonna have to live, or die, with. It’s the only way to get, at least, the majority of the damn money out of the system and give us a shot at running a democracy that isn’t bought and paid for.

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You’re welcome Stevie!!

Just remember: Bravado in the a.m. THEN Victimhood in the p.m.

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GLL,

Heck I’m hanging Jay with his own data. When I showed him the pedestrian Clinton growth rates from 93 to 97 with incredibly favorite economic conditions at his back what can Jay really say? Especially when you compare the economic growth rates after the Republican led tax cut in 97 when the Clinton economy then realized its best growth years. The data is right there for all to see.This is too easy.

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ragnar, rational self interest and the adoloescent musings of Ayn Rand might apply to discussions of a financial/economic nature; but I fail to see the logic in your take on counterterrorism. 1 – there is no “cure” to terrorism, save killing ALL terrorists. ergo, “killing one guy” is most certainly judicious and prudent; especially is the “one guy” is OBL or the dirtbag we whacked in Yemen (the proverbial head of the snake). it has been documented that “enahnced interrogation” does not work (and who is to say the intel that led to the bin Laden raid, or the recent Predator strike in Yemen was not secured the old fashioned way; developing assets, pursuing leads, applying logic and reason to the mission at hand)? don’t get me wrong, I think terrorists should be tourtured as a punitive measure, not as part of interrogation (see: KSM). and again, there are more effective forms of interrogation, which produce far better results than water-boarding. the Predator strike in Yemen wasn’t a “free range” operation. the CIA knew who was in he vehicle, and they acted with lethal force. we can debate the Constitutionality of targeting an American citizen, but that’s another conversation, and as I noted a few days back, Troy Davis was “targeted” and last time I checked, he was an American.

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Thulsa, please bear in mind that I’m not blaming Clinton (who in retrospect I have great respect) for the Dot.com bubble burst…he had no impact or play in that which resulted from the same overspeculation seen in housing bubble (along with no small amount of Wall Street mischief…see The Big Short if you want a laugh at how a guy mentally ill with asbergers actually figured it all out before S&P et al). I don’t blame Bush for that either…the government has much control over market fluctuations and adjustments as they have creating jobs by cutting taxes or spending trillions. Good god man, think these things through!

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Obama’s fault in the FIRST POST. That’s GOT to be a record.

The solution isn’t to necessarily RAISE taxes, but it damn sure isn’t to LOWER them. Lowering taxes has no worked for job creation EVER. So STOP LOWERING TAXES. Continuing to lower them is a GOP Long-Game-Agenda(TM) of making the tax rates so low that not only do we have to cut spending to deal with the shortfall, we also have to have reasonable people (usually the Democrats) propose raising taxes. It’s all about power – ousting Democrats for proposing such OUTLANDISH things as raising taxes, and keeping the Republicans in power by attacking only the government programs their base doesn’t like or can be made to not like through the efforts of the propaganda machine.

Everyone here, cons included, knows that Obama is only proposing tax revenue be drawn from either closing loopholes on top earners or on top earning businesses (these are also known as “special interests.”) But Karl Rove’s American Crossroads has released an ad that makes it look like Obama wants to raise taxes on middle class people, by cutting in pictures of middle class people and cutting OUT any aspects of a soundbite that would make people think it is about millionaires and billionaires and loopholes. Looks like he’s up to the same old misdirection tricks.

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“Punish” is what rich citizens call supporting this country, that has supported their wealth making. If that is the case what do the people who have died for this country call their duty?

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“Actually….we ALL do….with our purchasing power!!”

And the Chinese people are quite grateful………….their wages went up a nickel.

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Johnny Reb, good to see you are not still declaring the South the victors of that Civil War thingy. Good call on pension funding as corporations took a tactic from the Government accounting handbook and accrued for such liabilities which provided the option of wiggling out via bankruptcy. The government is not only not subject to audit (who can really account for trillions?) but operates on the premise that with respect to Medicare/caid, SS, and other such programs currently valued at over 100 trillion or so, will always be met by the latest workers. If a corporation operated in the same fashion, it wouldn’t last long at all….

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**Heritage has a nice detailed and logical analysis of the debilitating effects of the Clinton tax hikes**

Ragnar economics explains it all or welcome to fantasy island? Isn’t it funny how we see what we want to see and not what stares us right in the face?

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Jay,

Sorry but I’ve cited that heritage study numerous times. I kinda figured you and several others new where it was from.

“I also love how a GDP growth of 3.3 percent under Clinton is described as “pedestrian,” while you were earlier bragging about how great that 2.3 percent growth under Bush had been”– Jay

Jay,

As I pointed out both inherited dramatically different economic conditions- Bush inherited a recession 40 days into office and 9/11 8 months later. Clinton inherited an economy in its 22nd month of expansion and economic conditions that Bush or Obama could only dream of.

“Finally, your Heritage “borrowing” claims that the economy didn’t really pick up until AFTER this ‘97 tax cut. In the first place, the tax cuts in ‘97 were pretty small: $85 billion. Second, the bill was passed late in the year and didn’t take effect until ‘98-’00.”- Jay

Jay,

It doesn’t matter. Part of it is psychological. Even if the tax cuts don’t take effect until 98 its the message that it sends to business and the investor class and hence the positive ramp up going forward. They know that the tax cuts are coming. You conveniently ignore this point. Even if you take 97 out of the equation aren’t growth rates through the rest of the Clinton presidency superior than the preceding years of 93-97 when Clinton hiked taxes? Yes. They are and your own data proves it.

I’m out. Got to git to work. Ya’ll have fun the rest of the day.

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R. Danneskjold — “totals are not a sum, but merely an average”

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Taxing the rich is a headline that doesn’t cover the story. What America needs is full time citizens that have an interest in this country. If you are going to get out in front of traffic and move 20 mph clogging the road, you need to move aside and let more ambitious men and women take your place.

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Well, I guess liberals are no longer “tax and spend”

Now they are “spend then tax”

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I love how bipolar liberals want to spend almost a trillion saving banks

To turn around and then destroy them

After so much insanity, democrats are going todrice us back to Sep 2008 again

Brilliant

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Jm: “Well, I guess liberals are no longer “tax and spend””

What’s a “liberal” ?

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Trotsky not you

You’re a commie

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I’m not sure what your solution is to your less than credible position that the government can do anything to change your inflation adjusted fact.

Of course, you are not. You still won’t even admit that the facts are the facts.

And as you never provide your own, it’s a very safe position to simply gainsay the reality of record income redistribution UP the economic ladder..

Did you include union members and overpaid government workers in your calculations? Did you include those whose inflation adjusted income are result of obsolesence of the service or product they produced?

Yes. Of course, the 80% fact that you won’t acknowledge is for ALL Americans.

Do you include the fact that the wealth of this class so discriminated against (those who lived within their means that is…) actually increased dramatically due to 401K and pensions adjusted for inflation…

Completely fabricated nonsense.

The wealth of the middle class has NOT increased dramatically. It has dropped dramatically. How many times must you try some bizarre back door to avoid admitting that obvious fact?

Point here is that you and all those complaining have a choice, due to capitalism, to change their situation instead of waiting on others, government in particular to change it for you…

Apparently your contention is that 80% of all American working class family members are all lazy slobs who made bad choices.

It borders on immoral.

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To repeat a great line with a minor tweak

[T]o Donald Trump [and the other wingnuts], pushing an economically destructive agenda while dressed in colonial garb is “a great service.” But joining a movement aimed at holding the banking industry that plummeted the economy into recession accountable is laughable.

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Joe Mama, Doom loves those broad sweeping generalizations and then when you point out the nuances, he falls back to the “prove I said that”. For all his assertions about his great critical thinking and “winning”, the poster certainly is a very sloppy communicator of nuanced analysis….. well or just good at backtracking denials and spinning when he gets caught.

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“…when large numbers of hard working people live in poverty and the middle class is shrinking, it is a systemic, not an individual problem.”

Word.

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Amvet I now u don’t get this. But

The American dream is not a GUARANTEE of prosperity

Merely the opportunity

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mm – you have a misconception of who will create the jobs. For example, even if Obama’s job bill were to pass intact, it would only fund teacher pay for one year. Who will pay teachers after that? No one unless tax revenues increase. In one year, we would be back to where we are today (as far as teachers are concerned). His job bill is not the answer, and therein lies the reason it is not zipping through Congress.

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I’m just curious how long these “job creators” would last if the taxpayer supported government protections were taken out of the equation. I’m all for letting these poor put upon “achievers” self fund everything from roads, to police and fire services to military intervention. Afterall, THEY PAY THE MAJORITY OF THE TAXES IN THIS COUNTRY. So stop taxing them, and let them fend for themselves if they’re so inclined.

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Jm, please contribute something relevant, factual and of value, or sit this one out.

As long as the political right wing is not willing to acknowledge the calamitous effects of hyper-concentrated wealth and power, we are screwed.

Our distribution of income has become so badly skewed that the number of dollars going into the purchase of consumer goods and services, as opposed to secondary financial assets, is permanently depressed and damaged. Middle and lower class American spend a much higher percentage of their income on consumer goods and services than rich Americans do. But relative income has been redistributed from them to the rich.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/290809-how-income-redistribution-could-help-stabilize-the-economy

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Jm — “The American dream is not a GUARANTEE of prosperity”

Nor is it a guarantee that, having attained it, you’ll get to keep it.

In addition, the American dream is not and has never been warranted as applicable to corporations. Just individuals.

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Kamchak – “They do believe that if they vote and support the same things as rich people, then that will make them rich.”

Yes, and planting Skittles makes candy grow.

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Mick — “Of course the banks could solve the problem tomorrow by refinancing loans at 3% for 50 years, at least that would leave people with lower mortgage payments and more money to spend, plus more interest paid to the banksters. Why not?”

I said at the time that it would have been better — rather than giving banks TARP money — to use the stimulus funds to pay off existing consumer mortgages on questionable loans where the homebuyer was in a precarious position, then place the bank under the obligation to work out a mutually satisfactory mortgage arrangement for the home with the buyer — and place the buyer under the obligation to either accede to a new mortgage or lose the home. That way, the banks would have gotten funds, questionable mortgages would have been resolved and responsible buyers would have gotten a reprieve and a new set of terms.

Many more winners that way, and Wall Street wouldn’t get to hog all the TARP pie.

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Stop lying. If you have to lie to defend your position, change your damn position.

Jay

Not to burst your pipe dream, but frogs will find a way to keep from bumping their asses everytime they hop before he stops lying. Just sayin’…

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mm – “It will create a hell of a lot more jobs than tax cuts for millionaires.”

Not true, with all those new found savings, they might be able to finally get their own personal “ball” washers to scrub their testicales for them. After all, these guys are the masters of “job creation”.

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Dear Brosephus @ 12:08, you must have missed my “apology” to Jay, where I agree that the almost 10 points per month rise in the Dow proved the investor confidence in Clinton-era tax increases.

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AmVet @ 12:03

Most people will continue to fail to grasp the fact that we’re headed towards financial “checkmate” where we won’t be able to recover no matter what. Jobs are gone, and the money supply in the lower 80% is steadily drying up. Once we pass the point of no return, it’s 3rd World America.

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Don’t Forget – “If it did, we would see middle class wages rise and we haven’t for the last 30 years.”

Didn’t you know, the Middle Class just hasn’t “applied” themselves enough. They keep making “poor decisions” while waiting for the Government to bail them out. Just ask RB, Kayaker, Woodstock mike, jm, and the many others who believe that simply “trying harder” will elevate you to the ivory tower.

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ragnar

I’m getting caught up in the reading, and I just caught it. I applaud you and tip my hat to you because it’s not everyday that a conservative here appologizes in any form. Before I stir up a hornet’s nest, that’s not to mean that liberals appologize all the time either. Just pointing out the conservative thing since you are a conservative and you offered an appology.

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Jm: “You have a hundred so far on today’s political quiz.”

But don’t screw up the next question, or you’ll have an F.

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travelingman141: “It’s amazing how quickly every topic devolves into “Oh yeah, well Obama sucks!” / Jay the truth hurts, don’t it!”

Not as much apparently as the truth that was quickly evaded using the knee-jerk charge “Well Obama sucks” now does it?

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The U.S. tax system is grotesquely complex, often arbitrary, and corrupted by mutual back scratching between members of Congress and influential lobbyists. The reason Obama is having a hard time with his Jobs bill (aka Stimulus 2) is that his administration has failed miserably in proving that they can be responsible stewards for the money. The real scandal is not increasing the level of taxation in the middle of a recession, it is that Americans are tired of paying taxes only to see Washington squander the proceeds on Government sponsored boondoggles like solar energy and ethanol. Seriously, who in their right mind would use food for human consumption as a raw material for an energy program that is not cost effective and then force American consumer’s to buy the product- particularly when people are starving. Rather than focus on taxing the evil rich ad nauseam, how about reforming the tax code, protectionist tariffs, and Government subsidy programs (like sugar, corn, and alternative energy) that penalize citizens for the benefit of a few special interest groups.

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getalife,

Congress at 14% approval ratings?

I’ll have to check anew, but I believe that is the exact same number for BIG business and CEOs…

Bro, can you believe that apparently a sizable segment of the Republican Party thinks that flat-lined wages for 4 out of 5 Americans for forty years is a good thing???

I know that only a couple of right wingers have admitted this, but who here has refuted it?

Capitalism and our American system of governance has been completely compromised and corporatized.

Welcome the United States of America! A Wholly Owned Subsidiary of the New York Stock Exchange.

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I don’t get it. The right wing is trying to recapture the Carter moment. Even though Carter inherited an economic mess, and inflation, he had to sacrifice his presidency to bring it under control (see Paul Volcker and the Federal Reserve). Understandable – because inflation affects everyone. Those working, unemployed and retired. Today, we do have higher than usual unemployment, but we have very little inflation. I have a job. If I follow the Republican mantra, my attitude is if you work hard enough, get a skill, you will find a job. If not, well then, who cares? Don’t the Republicans say, “I got mine, to heck with you!” I can understand why the unemployed won’t vote for Obama next year. But why do the employed consider him a failure? Government spending? Well, you’re coming kind of late to that party. It would be more credible if you would speak up with the Republicans are running things.

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“GLL, the front nine at Yates is very well done. Back nine, not so much.”–JAY BOOKMAN

Does someone need to tell the local soviet Commissar that Comrade Bookman has been participating in that bourgeois game of golf???

(Jay, please tell me you hold your clubs better than Comrade Obama and don’t wear blue jeans on the golf course… unless of course you are playing the “Goat Track” at Candler Park)

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Dear Darwin @ 12:22, we agree that President Carter forfeited his presidency by his appointment of a Fed chairman, but it was the appointment of G. William Miller that destroyed his presidency, led to the hyperinflation of the late 1970s. While Volker’s constraint led directly to the recession – seemingly a violation of law, the leftist-inspired Humphrey-Hawkins Act – that infected the early Reagan years, we give him credit for ending inflation.

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It’s amazing how quickly every topic devolves into “Oh yeah, well Obama sucks!”

And they are not ashamed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E3vDO5eYRw

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Dear Joe @ 12:27, agree with you and with Jay, there is no magic button to cure the economy. However, there is a self-destruct button, labeled “tax increase.”

Re: 12:29, for me Paul Volcker – apologies for earlier misspelling – was indistinguishable from Mr. Greenspan. Volckernomics would have allowed the economic blossoming of the late 1980s.

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Kammy@12:01

“They do believe that if they vote and support the same things as rich people, then that will make them rich.”

Do you think voting for liberals, on their promise to give you more free stuff, is going to make you rich?

How’s that workin’ for ya?

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From the latest ABC News/Washington Post poll:

Barack Obama has jumped to a 15-point lead over the Republicans in Congress in trust to handle job creation, a sign the beleaguered president’s $450 billion jobs package has hit its mark in public opinion. Fifty-two percent support the plan – and most say it just might work.
Overall approval of the U.S. Congress, meanwhile, has dropped to its lowest in polls dating back to the mid-1970s. And of the eight in 10 Americans who are dissatisfied with the way the country’s political system is working, more blame the Republicans in Washington than the president.

no surprise

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AmVet,

I think the protests are a great way for the 98% of real Americans to be heard like the tea party.

Very encouraging to change corporate power in government.

The sleeping giant of the majority of the American people are awake.

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getalife

98% of Americans don’t have jobs or bathe. It’s worst than I thought.

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9.1% unemployment. So, 91% should vote for Obama since there is no inflation and they have jobs. We tossed out Jimmy Carter because of inflation. Not for low unemployment. See basic Economics 101 – inflation and employment are inversed (meaning one goes up and the other goes down).

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USMC,
you don’t really believe that do you?

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lil lib,

“98% of Americans don’t have jobs or bathe. It’s worst than I thought”

Why post that crap?

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USMC… sorry, the unfortunate aspect of your statement is that there is no “generic Republican”. When you identify an actual republican, they don’t do nearly as well and as the election date grows closer, your dreams will be shattered.

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GLL, you can blame Obama for not getting us out of this mess but you can’t blame him for putting us there.

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getalife

I was just responding to your post. I know, a crazy thing to do.

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Don’t Forget

“GLL, you can blame Obama for not getting us out of this mess but you can’t blame him for putting us there.”

No. That would be Pelosi and Reid, and yes with GW folding to them and the media.

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getalife

“Intellectual dishonesty is all we get from you cons.”

Why post that crap?

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Dear Darwin @ 12:45, with all due respect, the Phillips Curve manifestly failed during the Carter administration. However, the Milton Friedman “correction” to the curve holds sound.

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USMC — “Ruh Roh! Election 2012: Generic Republican 47%, Obama 41%”

Well, when you find Mr. Generic Republican, convince him to run. Because none of the jokers in y’all’s deck right now poll anywhere near as well as he does against President Obama.

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Dear Joe @ 12:50, I did not even have any problem with Greenspan until his Bush-era demonetizing. Beginning in 2001, however, he failed to protect the dollar. Bernanke is Greenspan on steroids.

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“However, the Milton Friedman “correction” to the curve holds sound.”

BS.

Invisible hand, laffer curve, magic button, etc…

La la land economics.

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R. Danneskjold — “Bernanke is Greenspan on steroids.”

Indeed. It seems that each day, we are subjected to further Bernanke-panky.

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Ol’ Timer

It worked for Reagan.

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Ol’ Timer

it worked for Bush

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Dear Getalife @ 1:01, maybe even more relevant, how do you explain 2001 – 2005?

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Granny Godzilla

I’ve been trying to think of the generic liberal: No leadership ability. very corrupt. Says one thing does another. anti-Semitic. Socialist.

I have only one answer: Barrack Obama.

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ragnar, and your guy Herman Cain was one of their minions during the 90’s. do ypu people not realize that the Federal Reserve Bank is essentially the “central committee” of a socialist model monetary policy. the Fed (central bank) controls the means of production/distribution of the dollar (actually, the Dept of Treasury prints/mints the currency, but the Federal Reserve determines its value via interest rates and the actually money supply). who “owns” the Federal Reserve? it’s basically a co-op of banks (foxes guarding henhouse). but let’s look a bit deeper. who benefits from asset bubbles, low interest rates and a $15 trillion national debt? the answer is corporate America (Wall Street, not John Q. Public/Main Street). so, if you are not in that “top 2%” “your money is good” but you don’t have a seat at the table. there is no “magic button” because this mess is not some accident or magic trick. it is how the “gamers” roll (right over the rest of us).

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The “magic button” is supply and demand, which is as natural a force as gravity, every governmental action impacts that in some way, some bad, some good, some necessary and some not. But make no mistake, in general government does not spur the economy, nearly every action is a drag on the economy, good policies simply do less damage than bad policies, ergo the key to government “helping” the economy is to get out of the way.

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To be a GOP is easy, learn to eat crap and bark at the moon, that’s how they treat their flock.

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You cons are in denial.

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I can’t decide about Generic T. Republican…

Ernest T. Bass?

Larry?

Darryl?

Or his other brother Darryl?

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Keep Up — “let American soldiers get booed”

This part really burns my bacon.

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I agree Joe. I don’t care what their sexual orientation.

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Each booer should have had an old sweat sock stuck in his/her pie hole.

Or is that too violent?

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As the cons cling to a failed ideology and bow down to corporate power , real Americans are standing up and saying enough with the 30 year attack on the majority of the American people.

Stand up and be heard Americans.

Now is the time for real change.

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