The ‘magic button’ of economics doesn’t work
Growing up in the ’60s, William Beach knew it was a good idea to show up to caddy at the local country club on Thursdays. The future economist knew that on Thursdays, most of the rich men in town skipped work and met at the course to play golf, and they would usually be good for healthy tips.
Today, Beach works as head of data analysis at the Heritage Foundation, a conservative Washington think tank. Looking back, he told a Georgia Public Policy Foundation conference last week, he believes that those high-earning men worked just four days a week because at the time, high marginal tax rates of 90 percent to 70 percent didn’t make it worth their time to work a full schedule.
In other words, marginal tax rates drive the availability of country club tee times.
Beach didn’t seem to be joking in those remarks, and his audience certainly didn’t take it that way. His story offers a wonderful example of what I call “magic-button economics,” the tendency to explain almost anything that happens in economics and human life through the factor of tax rates on the wealthy.
Christine Ries, an economics professor at Georgia Tech who served on a state tax-reform commission last year, also subscribes to magic-button economics. In her own presentation at the GPPF conference, Ries bemoaned the Legislature’s failure to adopt the commission’s recommendations earlier this year, but predicted the setback would be temporary.
The commission’s recommendations, she reminded her listeners, would have reduced the tax burden on the wealthiest of Georgians — the “job creators,” she called them — by cutting the state income tax rate in half. To her credit, Ries also acknowledged that cutting taxes on the wealthy would mean putting more of the tax burden on the lower and middle classes, mainly by broadening the sales tax to apply to items such as food. But that’s a burden they should be willing to bear, she said.
“If you’re going to put a good tax reform proposal together, it’s going to be regressive,” she said. “People are going to have to accept that.”
Georgia already has a very low tax burden on business, she acknowledged. But it’s essential to Georgia’s future that taxes on the wealthy be made lower still, especially since the state is trying to compete with states such as Florida, South Carolina and Tennessee, with even lower taxes on job creators.
If Georgia enacts such reform, she predicted “growth beyond what any of us imagine, in a shorter time than any of us imagine.”
In other words, magic-button economics.
Unfortunately, the magic button hasn’t seemed to work for Florida, with a 10.7 percent unemployment rate; or for Tennessee, with a 9.7 percent unemployment rate; or for South Carolina, which has an unemployment rate of 11.1 percent, all well above the national average of 9.1 percent.
It also hasn’t worked at the national level. President Bush hit the magic button hard, enacting major tax cuts in 2001 and 2003. Yet even before the recession hit, gross domestic product and the number of jobs had both grown more slowly in the 2000s than they had since World War II.
In their comments, Ries and Beach talked about computerized economic models that Heritage Foundation is creating to help legislators and citizens project the impact of tax reform in Georgia. Those models will assume that tax reform inspires considerable growth, Ries confirmed in emails after the conference.
In other words, those models will project “magic-button” economic growth that is likely to be much too optimistic, putting the state budget at great risk. In fact, such models are so notoriously inaccurate that the Congressional Budget Office refuses to use them to project revenue.
Earlier this year, for example, Heritage used such assumptions to model the impact of a GOP proposal to cut a variety of taxes at the national level, with most again accruing to the wealthy. According to the model, the proposal would lower unemployment to 6.4 percent by next year, and to an unheard-of 2.8 percent by 2021.
After howls of disbelief from other economists, Heritage was forced to withdraw those projections as unrealistic. But that same approach is now coming to Georgia.
– Jay Bookman
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752 comments Add your comment
Joe Mama
October 5th, 2011
1:16 pm
Keep Up — “let American soldiers get booed”
This part really burns my bacon.
Granny Godzilla
October 5th, 2011
1:18 pm
Good Little Liberal
Not dealing with you today…not worth the effort of the foray.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
October 5th, 2011
1:19 pm
I agree Joe. I don’t care what their sexual orientation.
Joe Mama
October 5th, 2011
1:20 pm
R. Danneskjold — “should rational people avoid participating”
I don’t see how one could practically accomplish such a thing, short of maintaining physical custody of all one’s liquid assets (in gold or other hard valuables — not cash) and in not using US currency in any way.
OTOH, if you have some simpler, more elegant solution, I’d be interested in hearing about it.
Granny Godzilla
October 5th, 2011
1:21 pm
Each booer should have had an old sweat sock stuck in his/her pie hole.
Or is that too violent?
Normal
October 5th, 2011
1:21 pm
USMC
October 5th, 2011
12:46 pm
If there was a generic Republican running, I’d be worried… but there are only whack-o Republicans running…
getalife
October 5th, 2011
1:21 pm
As the cons cling to a failed ideology and bow down to corporate power , real Americans are standing up and saying enough with the 30 year attack on the majority of the American people.
Stand up and be heard Americans.
Now is the time for real change.
AmVet
October 5th, 2011
1:22 pm
Anti-Semitic liberals?
LOL endlessly at GLL.
He still pretends to not be able to figure out why American Jews vote overwhelmingly against the Republican Party.
Time and time and time again.
His buddy, Not So casual Observer thinks that like the Charles Barkley-less blacks, they also are too stupid to realize that the fake conservatives are their best friends!
Good times out on the deluded fringe!
Katie Howard
October 5th, 2011
1:23 pm
I am just not eager to pay more taxes so wealthy ‘job creators’ can pay less taxes. I guess that makes me anti-American or something according to Ms. Ries. Her idea that the middle class should be willing to bear this is a bit hard to swallow. As it is, the middle class seems to be bearing the brunt of the taxes. So Ms. Ries wants us to pay more taxes so Paris Hilton can pay less? I don’t think so!
sue kelly
October 5th, 2011
1:23 pm
The occupier’s are the offspring of the bagger’s, disappointed by their parent’s cynicism and greed.
Joe Mama
October 5th, 2011
1:23 pm
Keep Up — “I agree Joe. I don’t care what their sexual orientation.”
The only way I’m booing a soldier serving in theater is if he did something avoidable, willful and awful, like kill a street vendor and take his cashbox, torture prisoners, rape someone, sell equipment/weapons/ammo to the bad guys, kill unarmed civilians who presented no threat, etc. etc.
Some dude who’s serving honorably in the combat zone and who’s getting the job done in tough circumstances? Those candidates need to be hugging that soldier and asking what THEY can do for HIM, not giving a pass to jackasses in the audience who booed him.
Peadawg
October 5th, 2011
1:24 pm
“Now is the time for real change.” – I thought that was in 2008? Oops….
I do agree with you though. But looking at the field of candidates, including the incumbent, real change may not come until 2016.
ragnar danneskjold
October 5th, 2011
1:24 pm
Dear Joe @ 1:20, apologies for sloppy draftsmanship, I should have used a term or phrase describing “leadership” rather than the more plebian “participating.”
ragnar danneskjold
October 5th, 2011
1:24 pm
Apologies for my apology, “plebean”
USMC
October 5th, 2011
1:26 pm
“If there was a generic Republican running, I’d be worried… but there are only whack-o Republicans running…”–Normal
You mean as opposed to your non-whack-o Socialist brethren Occupying Wall Street…
By the way, congrats to you and the new member to your family, Normal!
Scooter
October 5th, 2011
1:26 pm
If we want to see economic growth we should make the tax system transparent to all, expand the tax base, reduce the tax collection points, provide price advantage to products produced in the U.S., reduce the effect of lobbyists on politicians, and protect the poor with a transparent prebate that is received by ALL Americans. That’s right, it’s the FairTax and it scares those that are somehow vested in the divisiveness of the current system.
Joe Mama
October 5th, 2011
1:26 pm
Oh, this is completely OT, but I want to mention it.
Some fine American over on Free Republic earlier this morning was decrying what he called Herman Cain’s Nein-Nein-Nein plan.
My wife about peed herself when she read it, it made her laugh so hard.
ragnar danneskjold
October 5th, 2011
1:26 pm
Dear Joe @ various times, the “soldier” was not booed, it was “homosexuality” that was booed. Conservatives do not boo people, they boo ideas. Leftists do not consider ideas, but either fawn over or detest people.
ragnar danneskjold
October 5th, 2011
1:28 pm
And as to the booing, I understand that it was only a small minority of the crowd that booed – not exactly a threatening environment for the soldier in question. On the other hand, it is unsafe for a conservative to go to an Obama rally with a sign indicating opposition.
Granny Godzilla
October 5th, 2011
1:29 pm
Rags
I know that is the talking point created….but we heard it and saw it.
As for booing “homosexuality”, that surely does not make it much better.
Who’s gay in your family? Would you boo them?
Joe Mama
October 5th, 2011
1:30 pm
Scooter — “That’s right, it’s the FairTax”
I’ll have nothing whatsoever to do with that piece of sewage.
It’s taxation all right, but there’s nothing fair about it.
getalife
October 5th, 2011
1:30 pm
“Warren also drew applause for her tough talk on Wall Street. “The people on Wall Street broke this country, and they did it one lousy mortgage at a time. It happened more than three years ago, and there has been no real accountability, and there has been no real effort to fix it. That’s why I want to run for the United States Senate,” she said”
We found a leader.
Don't Forget
October 5th, 2011
1:30 pm
ragnar, you miss the point. it was not the booing that was the worst part, it was the fact that all the R candidates were too cowardly (and still are) to stand up for that soldier.
Kamchak
October 5th, 2011
1:30 pm
Dear Joe @ various times, the “soldier” was not booed, it was “homosexuality” that was booed. Conservatives do not boo people, they boo ideas.
Not intended to be factual statements.
USMC
October 5th, 2011
1:31 pm
“LOL endlessly at GLL. He still pretends to not be able to figure out why American Jews vote overwhelmingly against the Republican Party.”–AMVET
Laugh now, Amvet. We shall see who the Jews vote for in November 2012…
By the way, have you heard of the new 5% “millionaire shakedown” that Harry Reid and the Demwits just proposed???
I wonder who disproportionately falls in that group???
2012 …tick tock, tick tock…
Good little liberal
October 5th, 2011
1:32 pm
Joe Mama
Hmmm. So are you saying that when democrats have primaries that they don’t need to walk a tightrope between the centrist and the fascists of your own party? If you know what you clam to know about elections, you know that this is a common problem. The primary candidates need the hard core in order to make it to the show. Happens to Republicans and happens to Democrats.
Every election I’ve ever seen, there are always the people who say: “I don’t think that your candidate is going to have a coherent, positive platform, and that means that they won’t get elected.”
That’s nonsense. Of course they will be elected. Obama is a train wreck. Even the mainstream is having to cover the current criminal behavior of his cabinet.
I’m never one to underestimate the most powerful political machine the world has ever known, backed by the most powerful propaganda machine, but I really expected an upturn by now. I’m simply not seeing it. I’m seeing a lot of “stuff” being thrown against the wall to see what sticks, but its the same-old tired same-old.
Its obvious what this job bill was meant to do. Its obvious the political posturing that is going on. I’ll see them pull something like todays headline of Dirty Harry pushing a 5% excise tax on the rich, I worry a little that maybe Americans are that dumb, and then a poll will come out and Obama will have sunk further down.
The democrat’s political power comes from ignorance of the political process. That ignorance is waining. Cable News, Internet, just plan watching what has happened and everyone has someone they know that owns a business, is killing the tired tactics that the Democrats are using.
Big City liberals are always going to push the democrats. I know that. But big cities are surrounded by the burbs and the people in the burbs are not doing so well.
Obama won by attacking the conscience of the American public. America has a hell of a big heart and when the democrats with the help of the media was able to label water-boarding as torture, American didn’t want any part of that. Wire tapping was sold as taking away our rights. But now we all see drone attacks that kill families in sovereign nations where we aren’t at war. They are seeing that our young men and women are still dying in Iraq and Afghanistan. And on top of that, they have lost their jobs and their homes or they know someone who has lost their job and their home.
I don’t think that even that very powerful political machine using that very powerful propaganda machine is going to pull this one out.
Kamchak
October 5th, 2011
1:32 pm
That’s right, it’s the FairTax and it scares those that are somehow vested in the divisiveness of the current system.
Scares?
No.
Bores?
Most definitely.
Good little liberal
October 5th, 2011
1:34 pm
AmVet
I would address what you claim, but I hate to see you melt into a raging maniac like you did this morning.
Granny Godzilla
October 5th, 2011
1:34 pm
Great Eliabeth Warren Quote:
“Forbes magazine named Scott Brown Wall Street’s favorite senator. I was thinking, ‘That’s probably not an award that I’m going to get,’”
AmVet
October 5th, 2011
1:34 pm
Laugh now, Amvet. We shall see who the Jews vote for in November 2012…
It will still be a pretty pitiful percentage.
If you get one out of four Jewish votes, I’ll be surprised. And that is only if you don’t nominate some “Christian” cretin like Perry , etc…
Jews are too smart and not self-destructive enough to vote en masse for neo-cons…
Jefferson
October 5th, 2011
1:34 pm
Georgians live in a bubble, the rest of the country will elect the next president.
DawgDad
October 5th, 2011
1:34 pm
I know I’m late to the discussion, but I clearly don’t get the point of your article, Jay. Tax policy is discussed and debated because politically, tax policy is a major economic and social policy tool. Not discussing tax policy would be . . . “stupid”? And, who in their right mind believes economic models are any better at predicting the future than “climate change” models, or next week’s weather forecast? Nobody. That doesn’t mean they don’t have a place in planning, but (1) garbage in, garbage out, (2) no model can reliably predict the future in a macroeconomic sense, and (3) models can easily be manipulated to support an agenda.
Does tax policy matter? Of course it does. Which is why we debate it. Perhaps you’d like to see my model of what life would be like WITHOUT the Bush tax cuts?
Joe Mama
October 5th, 2011
1:35 pm
R. Danneskjold — “Dear Joe @ various times, the “soldier” was not booed, it was “homosexuality” that was booed.”
I don’t believe you for a moment.
Homosexuality wasn’t on camera. The soldier was.
“Conservatives do not boo people, they boo ideas.”
I voted Republican and Libertarian for over 20 years, and I know for a fact that you’re just talking out of your hind end now. Try again, sir.
“Leftists do not consider ideas, but either fawn over or detest people.”
Considered and rejected.
“And as to the booing, I understand that it was only a small minority of the crowd that booed”
Irrelevant given that neither the remainder of the crowd nor the candidates onstage repudiated the boo-ers. In this case, I read silence as assent and agreement with the sentiment being expressed. Your attempt to handwave it away is noble, but misguided and insufficient.
” – not exactly a threatening environment for the soldier in question.”
Rejected. That’s a response to an argument nobody made.
“On the other hand, it is unsafe for a conservative to go to an Obama rally with a sign indicating opposition.”
I’m sure that someone with a rainbow T-shirt on would be no more safe at a Tea Party rally.
I have personal experience with rallies, sir, and I’ve seen scuffles first-hand at some of them. Neither party’s hands are clean in this respect, and you’ll not convince me otherwise, sir.
USMC
October 5th, 2011
1:35 pm
I hope that Comrade Obama didn’t throw his “Community Organizer” hat away.
Opposition to Obama grows — strongly
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/post/opposition-to-obama-grows–strongly/2011/10/04/gIQAlch2ML_blog.html
Good little liberal
October 5th, 2011
1:36 pm
Don’t Forget
Barney Frank and Chris Dodd sure was around. And yes the Republicans allowed them to do it.
Granny Godzilla
October 5th, 2011
1:36 pm
Fair Tax musta skeert President Bush and the GOP in residence 2001 to 2008 too….
Why else would they have not faught tooth and nail to have it implemented?
Golly Gee Whiz
Good little liberal
October 5th, 2011
1:38 pm
USMC
AmVet is delusional. The Jews in New York just kicked out the democrats of a district that had been solidly liberal since the 1920s.
ragnar danneskjold
October 5th, 2011
1:39 pm
Dear Granny @ 1:29, do not particularly care about homosexual either way, except to the extent that I have to confront those who would shove it in my face. A la the soldier. In a world with 9% unemployment and terrorism raging, homosexuality and related issues are a pimple on a flea’s derrière.
Dear Forget @ 1:30, I think your patronizing attitude, that a soldier needed “protecting” from mere words contrary to his own, is painfully revealing. A soldier is capable of enduring criticism.
Matti's BS detector
October 5th, 2011
1:41 pm
Ragnil: On the other hand, it is unsafe for a conservative to go to an Obama rally with a sign indicating opposition.
Other hand? Really? Like the other hand of the Rand Paul supporters who yanked the sign from a small woman’s hand, shoved her to the ground and stepped on her head because they didn’t like her sign? You know, two big men, one wearing a “Don’t Tread on Me” button? That other hand?
What, do you have a similar anecdote on “the other hand” to justify the FACT that Republicans BOO’ed an American soldier and EIGHT candidates said NOTHING to defend him? Whatevs, SOLDIER HATER.
ragnar danneskjold
October 5th, 2011
1:42 pm
Dear Joe @ 1:35, leftism is oriented around respect for, or antagonism to, leader-figures. Conservatism is oriented around free exchange of ideas. If you were ever a libertarian, you would know that. Suggest you check into Tom Sowell’s magnum opus, “Vision of the Anointed.” Just like Road to Serfdom, but more accessible.
Jefferson
October 5th, 2011
1:43 pm
Go to a hospital, are the room filled with mostly young or older (medicare) folks. Where’s the money to run those places going to come from if there are huge cuts ? Or will they just pass the costs on to others. What wiil that cause ? Duh, funny how that works out.
AmVet
October 5th, 2011
1:43 pm
That’s not the reason.
Me calling you out for your unprovoked insults this morning is something you don’t enjoy much, is it?
That is the reason.
That and the fact that you have nothing rational to explain as to why the GOP has a “Jewish problem”!
LOL again…
Good little liberal
October 5th, 2011
1:43 pm
Matti’s BS detector
You guys ned to get your story straight. Either Republicans want money to support our soldiers and we broke the economy doing it or we hate soldiers.
One or the other.
Granny Godzilla
October 5th, 2011
1:43 pm
rags
shove it in your face?
perhaps we should treat you like a woman and tell you not to dress so overtly sexual….
they wouldn’t wave it in your face if you didn’t dress like you wanted it…
(snarc)
Normal
October 5th, 2011
1:44 pm
USMC,
Thanks for the congrats. As to the Wall Street takeover…Power to the people…how socialistic is that?
Keep Up the Good Fight!
October 5th, 2011
1:44 pm
<A soldier is capable of enduring criticism
Absolutely. However Americans should speak up and tell those who provide childish criticism and unfair criticism that they have real problems….and the soldier should know that he/she has our support despite the asshat criticism.
Joe Mama
October 5th, 2011
1:44 pm
GLL — “Joe Mama — Hmmm. So are you saying that when democrats have primaries that they don’t need to walk a tightrope between the centrist and the fascists of your own party?”
Nope. Didn’t say it and didn’t think it. Democrats have to do the same thing WHEN THEY AREN’T THE INCUMBENT. And the situation for Democrats in 2004 is very similar to how things are shaking out right now for the Republicans in 2012.
“If you know what you clam to know about elections, you know that this is a common problem.”
I do. I didn’t bring it up because it’s not a problem for Democrats this election cycle.
“The primary candidates need the hard core in order to make it to the show. Happens to Republicans and happens to Democrats.”
Sure. But that’s not an issue for Democrats in 2012. Just like it wasn’t an issue for Republicans in 2004.
“That’s nonsense. Of course they will be elected. Obama is a train wreck. Even the mainstream is having to cover the current criminal behavior of his cabinet.”
Shrug. Same thing in 2003-2004 with the Bush administration, and he got re-elected.
“The democrat’s political power comes from ignorance of the political process. That ignorance is waining. Cable News, Internet, just plan watching what has happened and everyone has someone they know that owns a business, is killing the tired tactics that the Democrats are using.”
I don’t think that applies solely to the Democrats any more than it applies solely to the Republicans.
“Big City liberals are always going to push the democrats. I know that. But big cities are surrounded by the burbs and the people in the burbs are not doing so well.”
And the big cities are just doing *great,* huh? :roll”
“Obama won by attacking the conscience of the American public. America has a hell of a big heart and when the democrats with the help of the media was able to label water-boarding as torture, American didn’t want any part of that.”
Waterboarding is torture. We helped prosecute people who did it in WWII.
“Wire tapping was sold as taking away our rights.”
Illegal wiretapping is exactly that. There’s a court set up explicitly to expedite the issuance of warrants to wiretap, and they *rarely* say no. However, President Bush went around them — likely because he knew that some of the taps he wanted wouldn’t merit a warrant. So if your government decides to wiretap you without a warrant, isn’t that a violation of your rights?
“But now we all see drone attacks that kill families in sovereign nations where we aren’t at war.”
We didn’t declare war in either Iraq or Afghanistan. Where are your objections regarding that?
“They are seeing that our young men and women are still dying in Iraq and Afghanistan. And on top of that, they have lost their jobs and their homes or they know someone who has lost their job and their home. I don’t think that even that very powerful political machine using that very powerful propaganda machine is going to pull this one out.”
We shall see. I couldn’t believe that President Bush won re-election in 2004, but he did. You may be similarly surprised in a little over a year.
Joe Mama
October 5th, 2011
1:46 pm
R. Danneskjold — “I have to confront those who would shove it in my face.”
I am sure that the average homosexual has better things to do than to shove it in your face.
Matti's BS detector
October 5th, 2011
1:47 pm
GLL,
I’d say “nice try,” but that doesn’t even rate. Of the trillions of American tax dollars spent on the wars (including the war on the country that did not harbor our attackers) what percentage went to “supporting our soldiers” and what percentage went into the pockets of private contractors who, whaddya know, make many times more money than our soldiers? Lame try.
AmVet
October 5th, 2011
1:47 pm
From GLL’s “conservative” friends at American Thinker.
Why Do Jews Vote for Their Enemies?
By James Lewis
Jews have the reputation of being intelligent, and academically, they often are. But Jewish smart people seem to be — how shall I say this? — incapable of thinking straight about politics. Once many Jews figure out what side in politics they are rooting for, they are stuck for life. No facts, no matter how persuasive, will change their minds. This is nuts. It is certainly not intelligent. In politics, American Jews seem to be idiots savant: Very bright in one part of life, but with big islands of ignorance, denial, and wishful thinking.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/10/why_do_jews_vote_for_their_ene.html
USMC
October 5th, 2011
1:48 pm
“AmVet is delusional. The Jews in New York just kicked out the democrats of a district that had been solidly liberal since the 1920s.”–GLL
And don’t forget about the state of Florida…. which is one of the most important states in election 2012.
Good little liberal
October 5th, 2011
1:48 pm
AmVet
I don’t enjoy much? I was just waiting on your next youtube song.
So were you saying that I was acting like a tycoon because of the fact that I had said that the expensive golf courses wouldn’t let my old chevy into the parking lot, or are you just ignorant enough to believe that all people who play golf are rich?
‘
See? You are too easy. That’s my problem with you. You are getalife with less control over your emotions and a much lower IQ.
Anyone here has the combination to that fragile little ego. And I hate to admit it, but we all enjoy using it.
ragnar danneskjold
October 5th, 2011
1:49 pm
Dear Matti @ 1:41, your passion is admirable but seemingly clouds your cognitive abilities. A battle of anecdotes is not necessary. Lack of “support for your position through inaction” by republican candidates is no more proof of anything than is Attorney General Holder’s untrue statement regarding Fast and Furious. The fact that he received briefings on the matter does not prove that he absorbed anything, nor verify an allegation of perjury. Discourage you from making inferences from negative proofs.
Matti's BS detector
October 5th, 2011
1:49 pm
Granny G @ 1:43,
**fist bump**
Good little liberal
October 5th, 2011
1:50 pm
Matti’s BS detector
So you still haven’t decided which lie you are going to follow.
Shocker!!
Don't Forget
October 5th, 2011
1:50 pm
ragnar – Conservatism is oriented around free exchange of ideas.
ROFLMAO, that’s why they all walk in lock step.
ragnar danneskjold
October 5th, 2011
1:50 pm
Dear Granny @ 1:43, and Joe @ 1:46, ha. Well-played.
Joe Mama
October 5th, 2011
1:51 pm
R. Danneskjold — “leftism is oriented around respect for, or antagonism to, leader-figures.”
To leader-figures who support and sustain an authoritarian status quo, yes.
“Conservatism is oriented around free exchange of ideas.”
Absolute bullspit.
It was the brand of intellectual discourse that W.F. Buckley sponsored that drew me into the GOP, but that species of Republican died out sometime in the mid- to late-1990s.
“If you were ever a libertarian, you would know that.”
I voted LP more than once, and I know you’re full of it. There are plenty of ideas that are non-starters to conservatives and to libertarians these days. There are lots of things that you just don’t discuss in those circles. I know this from personal experience.
Yeah, there’s plenty of intellectual freedom in the modern GOP and LP. Just so long as all intellectual discussion takes place inside the fences they’ve so generously put up for you to use.
“Suggest you check into Tom Sowell’s magnum opus, “Vision of the Anointed.” Just like Road to Serfdom, but more accessible.”
Tom Sowell? Well, they do say that the mind is the first thing to go. (giggle)
Matti's BS detector
October 5th, 2011
1:51 pm
GLL,
Here’s a shocker for YOU: As an American, you’re not required to follow ANY lie posed to you by a B.S. “either or” question. I know that rocks your little world, huh?
ragnar danneskjold
October 5th, 2011
1:52 pm
Dear Forget @ 1:50, you err. Free immigrationists vs Anti-immigrationists. Tax cutters vs fiscal conservatives. Choice vs Life. All have vibrant constituencies among conservatives. Not so much on the left.
Granny Godzilla
October 5th, 2011
1:53 pm
Matti
Yes M’am!
Keep Up the Good Fight!
October 5th, 2011
1:53 pm
Oy Vey…. now GLL wants to talk about lies again? Still waiting for an explanation of why he claimed to be 57 in April and now denies it. Now GLL, lets have a simple explanation of why the conflict in claims and can we try it in an adult manner?
sue kelly
October 5th, 2011
1:55 pm
taking it to the streets of nyc at 2pm, it’s a walk-out.
AmVet
October 5th, 2011
1:56 pm
That’s my problem with you.
No, your “problems” with me and many others here are much, much deeper than that.
After Strawmat, you are the new @@.
Here we go yet again. Democrats lost a heavily Jewish seat in Brooklyn and Queens that they’ve held for almost a century, and just as they have done now for over 30 years, neoconservatives are predicting an exodus of Jews away from the Democrats into the Republican party.
Most enthusiastic on this point is former Bush administration official Dan Senor. Writing in The Wall Street Journal, he insists that “New York’s special congressional election on Tuesday was the first electoral outcome directly affected by President Obama’s Israel policy,” and he blames this on the fact that the president has “a record of bad policies and anti-Israel rhetoric.”
The pro-peace, pro-Israel group J-Street did a poll last year and found that 71% of American Jews questioned supported the U.S. “exerting pressure” on all parties in the Palestinian conflict, including Israel. A clear majority supported the belief that an American administration should publicly disagree with the Israeli government when it felt it had a different view. And to top it all off, Israel came in a mere seventh among concerns of American Jews in determining their votes in 2010.
But pay no attention the uninformed neo-con pundits behind the curtain…
ragnar danneskjold
October 5th, 2011
1:56 pm
Dear Joe @ 1:51, voting once for a candidate of the self-titled Libertarian party does not make you a libertarian with a small “l.” Agree that there are plenty of “ideas” that are non-starters for conservatives and libertarians, mostly those that celebrate the majesty and genius of government police agencies, such as FDA, SEC, OSHA, EPA. As to your condemnation of the genius Sowell, that clearly proves your lack of acquaintance with conservative intellectualism. I reaffirm, easy to read, easy to understand, and will kill the leftism within you forever.
Joe Mama
October 5th, 2011
1:58 pm
R. Danneskjold — “Dear Joe @ 1:51, voting once for a candidate of the self-titled Libertarian party does not make you a libertarian with a small “l.”
Didn’t say “once.” Attention to detail, please.
“Agree that there are plenty of “ideas” that are non-starters for conservatives and libertarians”
Your concession is noted, appreciated and accepted.
The remainder of your post is irrelevant.
Kamchak
October 5th, 2011
1:59 pm
Conservatism is oriented around free exchange of ideas.
James Bopp (a conservative) was the one who came up with the idea of a purity pledge.
Don't Forget
October 5th, 2011
2:00 pm
ragnar, you’re blind. Pro choice R’s? who? R’s that haven’t signed the tax pledge? who? pro immigration? not many
Thomas
October 5th, 2011
2:00 pm
Simply a great summation of the thought processes of the leftist from Michael Kinsley of Bloomberg referring to the attacks on Christie- The far left and the far right are so very similar.
“Liberals, who embrace diversity of all other kinds — who demand quotas for transgender kindergarten teachers in public schools — these selfsame liberals have the unmitigated gall to encourage discrimination against a truly oppressed group: people of weight.”
Joe Mama
October 5th, 2011
2:02 pm
Thomas — ““Liberals, who embrace diversity of all other kinds — who demand quotas for transgender kindergarten teachers in public schools”
I’d be interested in seeing a substantive example of this.
Absent that, I reject the writer’s construction and argument.
Granny Godzilla
October 5th, 2011
2:04 pm
Truly Oppressed – people of weight?
Nope. Don’t think so.
AmVet
October 5th, 2011
2:05 pm
sue kelly, that is fantastic news!
This is the most encouraging new event I’ve seen in this republic in a LONG time.
Go you fed up Americans!
Patriotic civil disobedience is always a beautiful thing!
But where are the Tea partiers???
Good little liberal
October 5th, 2011
2:05 pm
Joe Mama
- – Shrug. Same thing in 2003-2004 with the Bush administration, and he got re-elected.- -
In 2003 and 2004, people had jobs.
- – I don’t think that applies solely to the Democrats any more than it applies solely to the Republicans. – -
I do. That’s why FOX News, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, etc. has had such a profound effect on the political discourse. FOX News came on line in 92 and in 94 the Congress, for the first time since 1952 went to the Republicans. An educated populous is not good news for the Democrats.
- – And the big cities are just doing *great,* huh? :roll”- -
No they are not, but chances are, they will still vote left.
- – Waterboarding is torture. We helped prosecute people who did it in WWII.- -
Now this is interesting. The whole thing about Waterrboarding is that they make the prisoner think that they are going to drown. They did this to two guys and they did it like 180 times to each guy. How many times do you think they did it before the prisoners figured out that they weren’t going to drown?
So now we ship our prisoners to our allies who beat the crap out of them, pull out their finger nails, do the glass rod up the old, well you know, etc. And that’s better? And because of the nonsense about closing Guantanamo, we aren’t even trying to capture anyone. We just incinerate them and who ever is standing near them. Is that more humane?
– - Illegal wiretapping is exactly that. There’s a court set up explicitly to expedite the issuance of warrants to wiretap, and they *rarely* say no. However, President Bush went around them — likely because he knew that some of the taps he wanted wouldn’t merit a warrant. So if your government decides to wiretap you without a warrant, isn’t that a violation of your rights? – -
Absolutely. Was then and now that Obama has extended those practices, it still is.
- – We didn’t declare war in either Iraq or Afghanistan. Where are your objections regarding that?- -
Whether or not I like it, we are still there and every Sunday Morning, on ABCs This Week, they still scroll a list of US servicemen killed in action. Remember, we are discussing why Obama is toast.
- -We shall see. I couldn’t believe that President Bush won re-election in 2004, but he did. You may be similarly surprised in a little over a year.- -
I may be. I wish I knew for sure, I would sell everything and go to Vegas. I think you can actually bid on this stuff.
Thanks for your civility. Tis a rare thing it is.
ragnar danneskjold
October 5th, 2011
2:08 pm
Dear Forget @ 2:00. Glad your asked. Pro choice republicans: Romney, Christie. Refused tax pledge: Huntsman. Pro immigration: WSJ and me.
Suppose you will argue that Romney and Christie were irrelevant to the leadership chase in the republican party, and the WSJ is meaningless as a conservative voice.
I think we can agree that most republicans accept the August 9, 2009 pronouncement that ““The last thing you want to do is raise taxes in the middle of a recession, because that would just suck up, take more demand out of the economy and put businesses in a further hole.” Who said that?
stands for decibels
October 5th, 2011
2:09 pm
I reject the writer’s construction and argument.
Joe, Kinsley’s text is being misrepresented (yeah, I know, shocking…)
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-30/requiem-for-a-governor-before-he-s-in-the-ring-michael-kinsley.html#disqus_thread
He’s clearly joking that he could’ve phoned in a column that *sounded* like the sentence being quoted.
Don't Forget
October 5th, 2011
2:09 pm
GLL, waterboarding IS drowning. it is merely stopped before death occurs.
Soothsayer
October 5th, 2011
2:10 pm
SHOOT! Jay! Every time I so much as think about taxes I go out and play golf! Takes my mind right off it!
stands for decibels
October 5th, 2011
2:10 pm
Pro choice republicans: Romney, Christie.
Romney is certainly not pro-choice.
Good little liberal
October 5th, 2011
2:12 pm
Keep Up the Good Fight!
Why?
Of all of the comments made by all of the conservatives, why do you rifle through every single post I write to every single poster, and desperately try to twist some crap out of some off hand statement I say?
Any blog where you and I have both been present, 90% of your posts are nasty little attempts at getting my attention. I have ignored you and I have confronted you, but apparently, you are just too damn dumb to figure it out.
Obsession is a horrible thing, but you are just plain creepy about it
Get a Clue, you little twit and stick your nose up someone else’s butt.
Kamchak
October 5th, 2011
2:12 pm
The carnival-like he-said, she-said of the legality of Enhanced Interrogation Techniques has become a form of doublespeak worthy of Catch-22. Having been subjected to them all, I know these techniques, if in fact they are actually being used, are not dangerous when applied in training for short periods. However, when performed with even moderate intensity over an extended time on an unsuspecting prisoner — it is torture, without doubt. Couple that with waterboarding and the entire medley not only “shock the conscience” as the statute forbids -it would terrify you. Most people can not stand to watch a high intensity kinetic interrogation. One has to overcome basic human decency to endure watching or causing the effects. The brutality would force you into a personal moral dilemma between humanity and hatred. It would leave you to question the meaning of what it is to be an American.
Soothsayer
October 5th, 2011
2:13 pm
“Get a Clue, you little twit and stick your nose up someone else’s butt.”
I’m telling Jay!
stands for decibels
October 5th, 2011
2:13 pm
http://www.mittromney.com/blogs/mitts-view/2011/06/my-pro-life-pledge
I am pro-life and believe that abortion should be limited to only instances of rape, incest, or to save the life of the mother.
I support the reversal of Roe v. Wade, because it is bad law and bad medicine. Roe was a misguided ruling that was a result of a small group of activist federal judges legislating from the bench.
I support the Hyde Amendment, which broadly bars the use of federal funds for abortions. And as president, I will support efforts to prohibit federal funding for any organization like Planned Parenthood, which primarily performs abortions or offers abortion-related services.
I will reinstate the Mexico City Policy to ensure that non-governmental organizations that receive funding from America refrain from performing or promoting abortion services, as a method of family planning, in other countries. This includes ending American funding for any United Nations or other foreign assistance program that promotes or performs abortions on women around the world.
I will advocate for and support a Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act to protect unborn children who are capable of feeling pain from abortion.
And perhaps most importantly, I will only appoint judges who adhere to the Constitution and the laws as they are written, not as they want them to be written.
I know it’s asking a lot, but please stop lying, Rags.
Don't Forget
October 5th, 2011
2:14 pm
ragnar, Romney is pro-life. He flip flopped to run for pres. You and WSJ aren’t candidates. That leaves 2 exceptions and one of them is polling at 1% in the republican primary race. The diversity of ideas in the R party is about like diversity of religion in iran.
Trotsky Foxtrot
October 5th, 2011
2:15 pm
Joe Mama: “Tom Sowell? Well, they do say that the mind is the first thing to go. (giggle) ”
!!
Good little liberal
October 5th, 2011
2:15 pm
Soothsayer
LOL!!
Have at it. I waste too much time here, anyway.
ragnar danneskjold
October 5th, 2011
2:15 pm
Dear Stands @ 2:10, “Romney is certainly not pro-choice.” Sure, this week.
Soothsayer
October 5th, 2011
2:17 pm
“I waste too much time here, anyway.”
No, you waste too much of our time!
ragnar danneskjold
October 5th, 2011
2:17 pm
Dear forget @ 2:14, “You and WSJ aren’t candidates.” You prove my point, that conservatism is oriented around ideas, and leftism revolves around messiahs. Only a leftist would so-affirm that the singular most significant conservative information organ is irrelevant to the movement. And that goes for the WSJ too.
stands for decibels
October 5th, 2011
2:18 pm
“Romney is certainly not pro-choice.” Sure, this week.
you’ll get out your pom-poms & megaphone and cheerlead for Magic Underpants when he wins the nomination next summer.
Granny Godzilla
October 5th, 2011
2:20 pm
Romney Pro Choice?
That was back when he pro mandate, against cuts to or privatizing social security, he didn’t “line up with the NRA”, supported campain finance reform and did not “have a desire to go off and fight in Vietnam”
stands for decibels
October 5th, 2011
2:20 pm
Oh, another thing:
Planned Parenthood, which primarily performs abortions or offers abortion-related services.
Romney’s a goddamned liar.
Good little liberal
October 5th, 2011
2:21 pm
Soothsayer
Nobody is making you read my posts or answer. If I am wasting your time, that’s your problem, not mine.
Don't Forget
October 5th, 2011
2:21 pm
ragnar, whatever you’re taking,…… cut the dose.
ragnar danneskjold
October 5th, 2011
2:22 pm
Dear Stands @ 2:18, agree, I will vote for anyone to the right of Hugo Chavez, which seemingly excludes only Chauncey.
Soothsayer
October 5th, 2011
2:22 pm
Either through inheritance, intelligence, connections, hard work, or luck, a few hundred thousand individuals out of 310 million people control the system. Immense wealth in the hands of the few has created a system where the few control the media, politicians, banking system, and mega-corporations that dominate our economy. Their human weaknesses include being egomaniacal power hungry materialistic greedy men who will stop at nothing to retain and increase their vast wealth. They have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams in pillaging the wealth of the middle class. But, they’ve gone too far.
They’ve manipulated the tax code in their favor. They make up most of the Senate, House and Judiciary. They own the mainstream media outlets. They are the masters of the universe on Wall Street. They run the mega-corporations that have shipped American jobs overseas. They pay millions to have the laws and regulations written for their benefit. They created the social welfare system, the public education system, and the healthcare system that keeps a vast swath of the population impoverished, ignorant and dependent upon the mutant organism that enriches the few. They’ve convinced the bulk of non-critical thinking Americans that the government can create jobs and make their lives safe and secure. This is the point where critical thinking Americans need to honestly answer a few questions to decide what happens next.
This is a great article for those ambitious and adventurous few who are not “caught up in the chase.” Believe me, there’s something in there for everyone.
Granny Godzilla
October 5th, 2011
2:22 pm
Come to think of it…
Mitt Romney is the veritable “Where’s Waldo” of policy positions.
ragnar danneskjold
October 5th, 2011
2:23 pm
Dear forget @ 2:21, sorry, forgot about the congenital humor deficiency among leftists.
Joe Mama
October 5th, 2011
2:23 pm
GLL — “In 2003 and 2004, people had jobs.”
2002 and 2003 saw some of the worst job losses of the Bush Administration — worse than any two-year period until the very tail end of his administration. I’m afraid that I can’t credit your statement.
“I do. That’s why FOX News, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, etc. has had such a profound effect on the political discourse. FOX News came on line in 92 and in 94 the Congress, for the first time since 1952 went to the Republicans. An educated populous is not good news for the Democrats.”
Fox doesn’t educate. It indoctrinates. How many corrections has Fox issued when it ‘mislabels’ currently misbehaving Republicans as Democrats onscreen? How many times has Fox corrected itself publicly when getting caught using misrepresented footage?
Furthermore, how do you explain the Democrats taking Congress in 2006 and the White House in 2008 if Fox was such an irresistible force?
Educating the populace? Yes. Now folks know that palm trees don’t grow in Wisconsin.
“No they are not, but chances are, they will still vote left.”
That’s disingenuous, considering that your whole argument at that point was that suburbs were doing poorly and CONSEQUENTLY would vote Republican. Now you concede that urban areas are also doing poorly, but inexplicably, they WON’T vote Republican.
Huh?
“Now this is interesting. The whole thing about Waterrboarding is that they make the prisoner think that they are going to drown. They did this to two guys and they did it like 180 times to each guy. How many times do you think they did it before the prisoners figured out that they weren’t going to drown?”
Irrelevant. We helped prosecute people who did it in WWII. We went on record as calling it a war crime, and the Bush Administration threw that out the window and made us all hypocrites.
“So now we ship our prisoners to our allies who beat the crap out of them, pull out their finger nails, do the glass rod up the old, well you know, etc. And that’s better?”
Not at all; I’m opposed to that as well. And FYI, we were doing that during the Bush administration, too.
“And because of the nonsense about closing Guantanamo, we aren’t even trying to capture anyone. We just incinerate them and who ever is standing near them. Is that more humane?”
To be fair, your argument is much like one that got batted around late in WWII. Is it more humane to drop incendiary bombs on Tokyo or an atom bomb on Hiroshima? FWIW, more people died in the spring 1945 firebombing of Tokyo than died in the Nagasaki bombing. Estimates vary, but the Tokyo death toll was something like 1.5x-2x that of the Nagasaki bombing.
“Absolutely. Was then and now that Obama has extended those practices, it still is.”
And I *still* don’t support it, even if Obama wants to continue it. The FISA court is pretty easy to convince — if a President thinks he needs to bypass it in order to get his wiretap, then I think it’s a dead cert that he’s trying to wiretap something that he shouldn’t be. No matter whether there’s a D or R behind his name.
“Whether or not I like it, we are still there and every Sunday Morning, on ABCs This Week, they still scroll a list of US servicemen killed in action. Remember, we are discussing why Obama is toast.”
*You* brought up our military involvement in a country where we hadn’t declared war. I pointed out that there were two other such countries, and asked what objections you had about *those* conflicts. I’d still appreciate a direct and substantive response on that point.
FWIW, I think it is disingenuous of you to bring up that point and then suggest that I’m going off topic when I respond to you on it. IMO, that’s discussing in bad faith on your part.
“I may be. I wish I knew for sure, I would sell everything and go to Vegas. I think you can actually bid on this stuff.”
If not here, I bet you can in the betting shops of the UK.
“Thanks for your civility. Tis a rare thing it is.”
And thank you for yours. I am pleased to engage in polite discourse with other polite people, even if we disagree.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
October 5th, 2011
2:23 pm
Oh well, so much for civility. Yes, GLL, I see you confront me and others. I see you claim your personal stories are “true” but challenge others. I have seen you make claims against me and others that they are liars without evidence. Yet so far, your lies have been demonstrated and now in your passive-agressive world you attack rather than explain a clear lie. I politely offered you a chance to explain after all your attacks and threats and we see the tantrum and true “raging maniac” result.
So I’ll be glad to recall your posts when you talk about the honesty or the tantrum of others. Its your fragile little ego that exposes you over and over again. And then your passive “thanks for the civility” is just howling funny especially as it is a rarity for you.
Don't Forget
October 5th, 2011
2:25 pm
ragnar danneskjold
October 5th, 2011
2:23 pm
Dear forget @ 2:21, sorry, forgot about the congenital humor deficiency among leftists.
Guess that’s why most comics are conservative. lol