The ‘magic button’ of economics doesn’t work
Growing up in the ’60s, William Beach knew it was a good idea to show up to caddy at the local country club on Thursdays. The future economist knew that on Thursdays, most of the rich men in town skipped work and met at the course to play golf, and they would usually be good for healthy tips.
Today, Beach works as head of data analysis at the Heritage Foundation, a conservative Washington think tank. Looking back, he told a Georgia Public Policy Foundation conference last week, he believes that those high-earning men worked just four days a week because at the time, high marginal tax rates of 90 percent to 70 percent didn’t make it worth their time to work a full schedule.
In other words, marginal tax rates drive the availability of country club tee times.
Beach didn’t seem to be joking in those remarks, and his audience certainly didn’t take it that way. His story offers a wonderful example of what I call “magic-button economics,” the tendency to explain almost anything that happens in economics and human life through the factor of tax rates on the wealthy.
Christine Ries, an economics professor at Georgia Tech who served on a state tax-reform commission last year, also subscribes to magic-button economics. In her own presentation at the GPPF conference, Ries bemoaned the Legislature’s failure to adopt the commission’s recommendations earlier this year, but predicted the setback would be temporary.
The commission’s recommendations, she reminded her listeners, would have reduced the tax burden on the wealthiest of Georgians — the “job creators,” she called them — by cutting the state income tax rate in half. To her credit, Ries also acknowledged that cutting taxes on the wealthy would mean putting more of the tax burden on the lower and middle classes, mainly by broadening the sales tax to apply to items such as food. But that’s a burden they should be willing to bear, she said.
“If you’re going to put a good tax reform proposal together, it’s going to be regressive,” she said. “People are going to have to accept that.”
Georgia already has a very low tax burden on business, she acknowledged. But it’s essential to Georgia’s future that taxes on the wealthy be made lower still, especially since the state is trying to compete with states such as Florida, South Carolina and Tennessee, with even lower taxes on job creators.
If Georgia enacts such reform, she predicted “growth beyond what any of us imagine, in a shorter time than any of us imagine.”
In other words, magic-button economics.
Unfortunately, the magic button hasn’t seemed to work for Florida, with a 10.7 percent unemployment rate; or for Tennessee, with a 9.7 percent unemployment rate; or for South Carolina, which has an unemployment rate of 11.1 percent, all well above the national average of 9.1 percent.
It also hasn’t worked at the national level. President Bush hit the magic button hard, enacting major tax cuts in 2001 and 2003. Yet even before the recession hit, gross domestic product and the number of jobs had both grown more slowly in the 2000s than they had since World War II.
In their comments, Ries and Beach talked about computerized economic models that Heritage Foundation is creating to help legislators and citizens project the impact of tax reform in Georgia. Those models will assume that tax reform inspires considerable growth, Ries confirmed in emails after the conference.
In other words, those models will project “magic-button” economic growth that is likely to be much too optimistic, putting the state budget at great risk. In fact, such models are so notoriously inaccurate that the Congressional Budget Office refuses to use them to project revenue.
Earlier this year, for example, Heritage used such assumptions to model the impact of a GOP proposal to cut a variety of taxes at the national level, with most again accruing to the wealthy. According to the model, the proposal would lower unemployment to 6.4 percent by next year, and to an unheard-of 2.8 percent by 2021.
After howls of disbelief from other economists, Heritage was forced to withdraw those projections as unrealistic. But that same approach is now coming to Georgia.
– Jay Bookman
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752 comments Add your comment
ep
October 5th, 2011
8:34 am
Spending bills have to start in the House, not the Senate. If the majority does not want to consider the proposed bill, it goes nowhere. Thus the lack of any budget or spending bills, just stopgap measures to keep the country running. Sounds like stalling to me. Hawks Ridge, near Ball Ground, also uses caddies.
TaxPayer
October 5th, 2011
8:34 am
cures baldness, rheumitism, the gout and “wimmen’s complaints”
It’s a special blend just for the conned. It contains Viagra, a birth control pill, and a blend of vodka, whiskey, Kalua and Creme de Menthe.
ByteMe
October 5th, 2011
8:35 am
Poll: 1 in 3 vets say Iraq, Afghan wars a waste
Means 2 in 3 think it’s not a waste and the headline is misleading.
Paul
October 5th, 2011
8:36 am
How does Beach have any credibility? The audience – giving a pass on their own experience and common sense?
“he told a Georgia Public Policy Foundation conference last week, he believes that those high-earning men worked just four days a week because at the time, high marginal tax rates of 90 percent to 70 percent didn’t make it worth their time to work a full schedule.”
He expects us to accept these guys had contracts that called for them working four days a week? Not to work full time? As if we’d believe they’d say ‘if that’s all you’re paying me, then I’m working only four days a week’ and the company said ‘well, okay.’
Or, if they’re the small business job creators, that they run their businesses all by themselves and close it down to go play golf? Not that they have people working for them, keeping the business open and generating revenue?
And the audience accepts it without question. And these are your policy development people?
Good luck, Georgia. You’ll need it.
USinUK
October 5th, 2011
8:36 am
Taxpayer – 8:34.
aw, man. I’m eating my lunch.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
October 5th, 2011
8:38 am
Taxpayer — its also a dessert topping and a floor wax?
cosby smith
October 5th, 2011
8:39 am
Totally tired of the class warfare, use of the tax code to promote class warfare…time to get on board and dump the 16th amendment, the IRS, the current Tax code and pass the Fair Tax or even Mr. Caines 999 plan. that way all will pay. Tax the rich but gee Jay, not one word regarding the 51% who do not pay and not one word of those who get tax credits – money – when they do not even owe / pay taxes – and while we are at it..Barry aka Obama is touting all will have to suffer while his bride travels, at our expense, on lavish vacations / trips. how about starting at home, no lavish trips, no $1,000,000 elaborate busses to tour the country with all paid for by the tax payer…what a crock of lies!!! And his Jobs bill that “Pass it now” slogan he is touting is full of job killing crap ..gee Jay start investigating and telling the truth..This man is killing the USA…
Normal
October 5th, 2011
8:39 am
I’m a Vet who thinks the Iraq war is a war crime and the perps should be tried in international coirts.
Granny Godzilla
October 5th, 2011
8:40 am
“Poll: 1 in 3 vets say Iraq, Afghan wars a waste”
Can you imagine sharing that with Jean Schmidt a couple of years ago?
Normal
October 5th, 2011
8:41 am
Cosby Smith sounds delusional….
RB from Gwinnett
October 5th, 2011
8:41 am
“Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid stepped up to stop a vote in the Senate on the president’s measure,”
I’m SHOCKED Obama failed to mention that when he was whining about the house not voting on it like a 5 year old who didn’t get the happy meal toy he wanted. This President’s behaviour is not very Presidential.
Granny Godzilla
October 5th, 2011
8:41 am
Class Warfare?
Be very careful what you wish for.
Just sayin’.
Good Little Liberal
October 5th, 2011
8:42 am
AmVet
Have a good day, and good luck with your problem.
Shawny
October 5th, 2011
8:42 am
“President Bush hit the magic button hard, enacting major tax cuts in 2001 and 2003. ”
This is an inconsistent statement. The previous references to magic button refer to lower taxes on the rich only, the job creators.
Bush’s tax reductions were for everyone. And no, dividend tax decreases are not only for the wealthy. If you have 401k money in a dividend paying company, you got a break.
Butch Cassidy
October 5th, 2011
8:44 am
Ries also acknowledged that cutting taxes on the wealthy would mean putting more of the tax burden on the lower and middle classes, mainly by broadening the sales tax to apply to items such as food. But that’s a burden they should be willing to bear, she said.
“If you’re going to put a good tax reform proposal together, it’s going to be regressive,” she said. “People are going to have to accept that.”
Freely translated – The Middle Class just needs to suck it up. I’m surprised she didn’t offer a model showing how indentured servitude is also a great way to ensure that the “job creators” aren’t unfairly taken advantage of.
ByteMe
October 5th, 2011
8:44 am
If you have 401k money in a dividend paying company, you got a break.
Only if the amount of dividends you received were enough to be taxable at all… which it’s not for most people who don’t have a lot of money.
And study after study has shown that the wealthy got far more from the tax breaks than the poor.
1811/0311
October 5th, 2011
8:44 am
ByteMe :
Thank you for your comment.
1811/0311
October 5th, 2011
8:45 am
Granny:
Biden never heard of Van Jones.
I never heard of Jean Schmidt.
…………………
Strawman
October 5th, 2011
8:45 am
“His story offers a wonderful example of what I call “magic-button economics,” the tendency to explain almost anything that happens in economics and human life through the factor of tax rates on the wealthy.”
Everything that happens in human life, Jay? You pegged the hyperbole meter with that statement.
BTW, do you see a distinction between those individuals (like small business owners) who use their wealth directly to create or sustain jobs and people like Johnny Depp who, by his own recent admission, makes “stupid money” (reportedly 300 million for the Pirates of the Caribbean movies)? And, if so, do you support continuing lower tax rates for the former and a way to incentivize job creation?
Don't Forget
October 5th, 2011
8:46 am
Finn McCool
October 5th, 2011
8:09 am
hmmm, one lesson from this is that if you go to GA Tech, avoid the economics department like the plague.
It wasn’t always that way but I guess Mac Moore is long gone. I used to love watching him shred supply siders for their utopian conservatism. They have become as delusional as the utopian communists of the early 20th century.
carlosgvv
October 5th, 2011
8:47 am
ty webb – 8:32
I do ok but I’ll never ever be in your league.
1811/0311
October 5th, 2011
8:47 am
Granny:
“Class Warfare?
Be very careful what you wish for.
Just sayin’.”
We’re ready …………….. are you libs. ??
ByteMe
October 5th, 2011
8:47 am
And, if so, do you support continuing lower tax rates for the former and a way to incentivize job creation?
I wouldn’t lower their marginal rate, no. But I would give them a tax deduction for the amount they pay in payroll.
Oh, wait… they already get that.
Mick
October 5th, 2011
8:49 am
The “job creators” have been doing a very poor job of it the past decade while taxes are at historical lows. Another myth has been created at the expense of fiscal sanity. That’s why this reagan democrat will never support this version of the republican party. The dems are no angels, but at least they come down on the side of some sanity…
Guy Incognito
October 5th, 2011
8:51 am
GLL,
Tempo.
At least for me, I’m fairly consistent when I don’t hurry my transition
Aquagirl
October 5th, 2011
8:51 am
Bush’s tax reductions were for everyone
And the hilarious comments keep on rolling….seriously, y’all stop, laughing this early can’t be good for me.
Mick
October 5th, 2011
8:52 am
**“Class Warfare?** **We’re ready …………….. are you libs?**
Look at scout all ready to take up his bayonet and fight for…..the wealthiest among us, that borders on traiterous to the middle class. Go for it…
Guy Incognito
October 5th, 2011
8:53 am
Oh, yesterday Sen Mitch Mc wanted to give the President’s “jobs bill” a vote. Why did Harry Pair Reid not allow it?
The Dem’s are the Party of NO!!!!!!!!!!
1811/0311
October 5th, 2011
8:53 am
P.S. to Granny:
“We’re ready …………….. are you libs. ??”
Because if it ever starts the masses won’t be able to tell a rich liberal from a rich conservative.
Out for awhile …………… be nice to each other.
MountainMan
October 5th, 2011
8:53 am
Caddies can be found at East Lake, Peachtree, and Piedmont Driving Club in Atlanta.
scrappy
October 5th, 2011
8:53 am
“To her credit, Ries also acknowledged that cutting taxes on the wealthy would mean putting more of the tax burden on the lower and middle classes, mainly by broadening the sales tax to apply to items such as food. But that’s a burden they should be willing to bear, she said.”
So – GOP sees nothing wrong with increasing taxes on the lower and middle class, and even says that it is a burden we are willing to bear – but – when the rest of us able minded people think that the millionaires should have increased taxes and believe that it is a burden they should be willing to bear – suddenly we have/are “wealth envy” or “class warfare” or “socialist wealth re-distributors” or any other catch phase???
Do you GOPers really see nothing wrong with this? What is wrong with you people?
Strawman
October 5th, 2011
8:54 am
“The “job creators” have been doing a very poor job of it the past decade while taxes are at historical lows.”
HP CEO: job creation depends upon 1) consumer demand and 2) certainty about future costs. I believe what he says.
Doggone/GA
October 5th, 2011
8:55 am
“Bush’s tax reductions were for everyone”
They didn’t reduce MY taxes. Mine didn’t change
Don't Forget
October 5th, 2011
8:56 am
The Bush tax cuts didn’t create any jobs and Bush’s second term was kept afloat economically by the housing boom. Without the housing boom we would have been in recession by 2005.
Jm
October 5th, 2011
8:56 am
The liberal magic button is Keynesian spending
It doesn’t work either
Joe the Plutocrat
October 5th, 2011
8:56 am
be by design (Founding Fathers), accident, or the “rational self-interest” of a handful of opportunistic oligarchs, the American business model has become a “pay to play” high stakes poker game. but the difference between the gambling in Vegas, Atlantic City or Biloxi is; the players on the casinos stake themselves, whereas the players on Wall Street (oligarchs) are staked by the U.S. taxpayer. it is a rigged game and anyone who follows the stock market, even as an observer knows this. it is possible to attach oneself to a successful “gamer” but in the end, there can only be a few winners; because, as Barzini observed; “…after all, we are not Communists…” the tax and spend/lower taxes and increase spending policies of the past 40-50 years have left little meat on America’s bones, and it will be interesting to see what comes of the situation in lower Manhattan; Woodstock, or Altamont?
Doggone/GA
October 5th, 2011
8:58 am
“HP CEO: job creation depends upon 1) consumer demand and 2) certainty about future costs”
And when unemployment is high, demand goes down. If the “job creators” aren’t actually CREATING JOBS they can expect lower demand.
And there IS NO CERTAINTY about future costs. None. Ever.
Granny Godzilla
October 5th, 2011
8:59 am
Scout
Are we ready?
Oh Heavens yes.
We fought and won this battle before
and we will again.
Generation$crewed
October 5th, 2011
8:59 am
Doggone/GA
October 5th, 2011
8:55 am
How?
Why?
the cuts lowered rates as apercentage if i understood it correctly along with a bunch of tax credits along the way.
Did you over pay? If so very honorable!
AmVet
October 5th, 2011
8:59 am
Now that my juvenile problem is going off to play tycoon, the morning will return to normal.
Speaking of which, agreed brother Normal.
Iraq was a blithering mistake and utter waste of precious American lives. And in an entire dysfunctional organization, only a very few “real men” like Chuck Hagel had the guts to say so.
George Bush and Dick Cheney should have been tried for war crimes and a bare minimum impeached for high crimes and misdemeanors. But the play-along to get-along spineless Democrats – including , Hillary, Pelosi, Reid and BHO – ‘took impeachment off of the table”.
And at that point, even for the willfully blind on the “left side of the aisle”, it was obvious that they were criminally complicity themselves and had abrogated their sacred duties to hold that torturously (or is enhanced interrogationly?) disastrous president and vice president of the United States accountable to US and international laws.
That the laughable fake conservatives turned a blind eye to all of it, as arguable the worst ever left the White House in a legacy of complete disgrace, and who will go down in history as one of the most failed administrations in US history, is little comfort.
And is it even remotely surprising that 60% of those who were actually in those meat grinders said the United States should pay less attention to problems overseas and instead concentrate on problems at home.?
No.
Are you fools in Washington listening?
RB from Gwinnett
October 5th, 2011
9:00 am
“And study after study has shown that the wealthy got far more from the tax breaks than the poor.”
That ^^^^^^^^ statement is one of the problems we have in this country. Idiots make comments like that as if a tax cut should have the same effect on a person who doesn’t pay any taxes at all as it does on the person who is paying $100K in taxes. It’s just DUMB. And it’s either being repeated over and over because fools buy it or you’re one of the fools who bought it. Take your pick.
Mick
October 5th, 2011
9:01 am
**The liberal magic button is Keynesian spending**
Sure worked for FDR, what was hoover’s plan again? Oh yes, do nothing, kind of like our current republican house…
Don't Forget
October 5th, 2011
9:03 am
Consumption is the sole end and purpose of all production; and the interest of the producer ought to be attended to, only so far as it may be necessary for promoting that of the consumer.
Adam Smith
Granny Godzilla
October 5th, 2011
9:03 am
RB
but it’s true…
Harry
October 5th, 2011
9:04 am
I keep reading about companies and wealthy investors being “job creators.” I’ve been in business for over 30 years and have never seen a business with an objective of “adding jobs.” We want to cut jobs and increase profits. People buying products or services result in businesses adding jobs. Lower taxes or tax credits only increase profits. Businesses don’t add jobs when they already have unused capacity, plenty of workers and inventory.
ByteMe
October 5th, 2011
9:05 am
Idiots make comments like that as if a tax cut should have the same effect on a person who doesn’t pay any taxes at all as it does on the person who is paying $100K in taxes
So the meds haven’t kicked in or you still haven’t taken them. Which is it?
Th
October 5th, 2011
9:07 am
Let’s start with some truth. The merchants in many small towns like mine closed for half a day, usually Wed. afternoon, and were then open for half a day on Sat. This was so they did not have to pay overtime. The stores were only staffed by one set of workers and were only open 40 hours.
Butch Cassidy
October 5th, 2011
9:08 am
Harry – “Businesses don’t add jobs when they already have unused capacity, plenty of workers and inventory.”
And thanks to outsourcing to China, India, Indonesia, Phillipines, etc.., all of the above can be had for much less because Americans actually expect a liveable wage and clean air and water.
Th
October 5th, 2011
9:09 am
And put me with Harry. I never hired a worker because I had extra money, I hired when I had more business and could make more money by having another worker.
Joe the Plutocrat
October 5th, 2011
9:10 am
AmVet, I think Americans would do well to look beyond the left/right sides of the aisle. as noted previously; those on the left who supported Iraq were shameless, cowards who viewed the move as cynically as Karl Rove. if we support Bush/Iraq and he topples Saddam, and we get Democracy in the Middle East; we can take partial credit. if the policy crashes and burns, we can garner the political capital necerssary to strengthen our position(see: Obama 2008 victory). and as also noted; who benefits from this duplicitous boondoggle? I’ll tell you who; corporate America, because any way you slice it; with the exception of a couple hundred billion here and a couple hundred billion there, which are probably now in some Cayman or Swiss bank account; the three to four trillion dollars we will end up “investing” in Iraq will eventually come to rest on the bottom lines of everyone from WalMart (soliders gotta field families), Big bank (soliders’ families gotta live somewhere), and of course the M-I profiteers. our very government has become a facilitator or business agent for corporate America, and in order to function in this role, the red vs blue canard is just a ruse to convince John Q. Public he has skin in the game.
Jm
October 5th, 2011
9:10 am
Mick the “recovery” after the Obama stimulus would seem to indicate otherwise
And it has this nice hangover effect, like drinking s bottle of bourbon, just wait till the next morning
Romney getting the ducks in row. Obama is going to be toast
scrappy
October 5th, 2011
9:11 am
“I keep reading about companies and wealthy investors being “job creators.” I’ve been in business for over 30 years and have never seen a business with an objective of “adding jobs.” We want to cut jobs and increase profits. People buying products or services result in businesses adding jobs. Lower taxes or tax credits only increase profits. Businesses don’t add jobs when they already have unused capacity, plenty of workers and inventory.
Well said and worth repeating.
And – if the rest of us little people are too poor to buy anything, demand certainly ain’t going up!
Exactly why shifting tax burden to the “poor” has the exact opposite effect of job creation.
Trotsky Foxtrot
October 5th, 2011
9:11 am
Jm: “The liberal magic button is Keynesian spending / It doesn’t work either”
Ah, so you’re conceding the truth of the assertion.
Are you just going to throw wild claims around or are you going to provide an actual explanation for your claim as to what works and doesn’t?
ByteMe
October 5th, 2011
9:11 am
Businesses don’t add jobs when they already have unused capacity, plenty of workers and inventory.
The people at the top are paid by how good the bottom line looks, not by how many people they employ. It’s always been that way. If demand isn’t there, you have to funnel money to more people to increase demand… and that’s why unemployment payments, as small as they are, have one of the largest economic multipliers: the money gets spent immediately, which increases demand immediately.
MountainMan
October 5th, 2011
9:12 am
Mick,
If you look at history FDR’s policies extended the Great Depression and recovery only began when WWII started.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
October 5th, 2011
9:12 am
More of the same. Class warfare and berate GWB/Cheney. BTW…Cheney has a good point, Obama should apologize for criticizing the Bush administration on water boarding. He should also apologize for condemning the Iraq war.
Mick
October 5th, 2011
9:14 am
jm
If obama did not have the stimulus, things would be worse, is that what you are advocating? The majority of the respected economists held the view that the stimulus was too small. That view is has now been proven correct – see joseph stigliz latest writings on the matter…
Thulsa Doom
October 5th, 2011
9:14 am
It also hasn’t worked at the national level. President Bush hit the magic button hard, enacting major tax cuts in 2001 and 2003.- Jay
Not quite Jay. A little fact checking would help. After the initial tax cuts in 2001 the economy grew at a very modest clip. When the Bush tax cuts were sped up and fully realized in May I think it was of 2003 the economy then took off at a much improved economic growth rate. Those are the facts and they are not in dispute.
Brosephus™
October 5th, 2011
9:15 am
Harry @ 9:04
Beware. Talking like that will get you labeled as a heretic here.
Granny Godzilla
October 5th, 2011
9:16 am
Mountain Man
WWII the largest jobs program the USA ever had….
and with money borrowed to boot!
Brad Steel
October 5th, 2011
9:16 am
And on the 8th day the wealthy created jobs.”
- God (a.k.a The wealthy in their own collective humble opinion)
Granny Godzilla
October 5th, 2011
9:16 am
Recon
I say again, Class Warfare.
Be careful what you wish for.
Steve - USA
October 5th, 2011
9:17 am
I actually was a caddy when I was a teen in the late 70’s. The wealthy members still showed up on Thursdays and the impression on my young mind was they came to consume vast quantities of booze.
Breaking news…..The protesters on Wall Street now have an 11th demand.
11. No Mother shall be allowed to tell their kids to clean up their room, even if they are 28.
Don't Forget
October 5th, 2011
9:18 am
RB from Gwinnett
October 5th, 2011
9:00 am
Rb, ever heard of the widow’s mite?
“And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.” Mark 12:38-44, Luke 20:45-47
So, RB, was Jesus an idiot too?
Mick
October 5th, 2011
9:18 am
mountain man
That is revisionist history and I’m not buying your version. Here’s a question for you: We have been at war for ten years now, how come that hasn’t rescued our economy????
Cheney & bush should apoligize for getting us into an unprovoked war costing trillions, 5000 dead, 30,000 severly injured. He has some gonads, that dickster…
ByteMe
October 5th, 2011
9:18 am
If you look at history FDR’s policies extended the Great Depression and recovery only began when WWII started.
Not intended to be a factual statement.
FDR’s jobs programs helped us make our way out of the depression. Then Congress got scared about the debt and they cut back on the easy money and they had another strong recession. The beginning of WW2 was not the end of “the depression” either, since they were doing some serious rationing of a whole lot of things, including steel, eggs, sugar, and so on, and government was doing most of the hiring (or paying for most of the hiring) for bodies to send overseas and to man the manufacturing lines for war materials. Only the end of the war — and the destruction of most of Europe — helped clear the way for our economic rebirth.
Credit crisis-driven recessions are NOT normal business cycle recessions. They don’t last a year or so. They last anywhere from 4-20 years, depending on how quickly the excess supply can be absorbed and the excess credit can be deleveraged.
Trotsky Foxtrot
October 5th, 2011
9:18 am
Recon: “Class warfare and berate GWB/Cheney. BTW…Cheney has a good point, Obama should apologize for criticizing the Bush administration on water boarding. He should also apologize for condemning the Iraq war.”
What’s “class warfare” ?
Butch Cassidy
October 5th, 2011
9:19 am
Thulsa Doom – “May I think it was of 2003 the economy then took off at a much improved economic growth rate. Those are the facts and they are not in dispute.
And yet you see to correlation between the “much improved economic growth rate” and the fact that people were getting loans based on their ability to fog a mirror and were using their homes as ATM’s, all of which led us to the economic swamp we are in now?
Don't Tread
October 5th, 2011
9:20 am
Here’s a little “magic button” of logic/common sense for you: If I were taxed at 90% over a certain income level, once I reached that level, I’d stop working too. Why would I spend time at work when I’ll get nothing for it? There are more enjoyable pastimes to spend time on (like playing golf).
The liberal mind is amazing.
Trotsky Foxtrot
October 5th, 2011
9:20 am
Recon: “More of the same. Class warfare and berate GWB/Cheney … ”
Class warfare? Ha. You haven’t seen ANYTHING yet. Just watch.
Jm
October 5th, 2011
9:21 am
Trotsky. Neither are “magic buttons”
I didn’t say either were 100% ineffectual
Mick stiglitz is a liberal. Economics isn’t a science. There’s lots of disagreement about the appropriate solutions
Keynesianism doesn’t work in a global flat hot crowded economy
Any stimulus will solely benefit china
stands for decibels
October 5th, 2011
9:22 am
I’ve been in business for over 30 years and have never seen a business with an objective of “adding jobs.”
see also:
http://www.npr.org/2011/10/04/141033128/venture-capitalist-cautions-against-job-creation-myths?ps=cprs
ragnar danneskjold
October 5th, 2011
9:23 am
We would agree that the “magic button” of economics does not work, nor more than does the magic button of psychology or sociology or political science or archeology. Anyone who grasps economics realizes that it is the study of incentives, and the effects of same on people.
A rational economist today observes that the bureaucratic clamps on the economy have taken effect, and the prospect of higher taxes will affect incentives. Any rational soul, not just an economist, appreciates that employers will not add employees when they face a new and unknown “per employee” healthcare tax.
Magic buttons are the province of the Keynesians, who believed that a massive stimulus is what was needed. Pumped poison into the economic body, that’s what they did, in introducing $3 trillion of new wasteful spending.
ByteMe
October 5th, 2011
9:23 am
If I were taxed at 90% over a certain income level, once I reached that level, I’d stop working too
If you actually knew how to get to that level of income, your know that your brain wouldn’t let you quit just because you got to that level.
ByteMe
October 5th, 2011
9:25 am
Magic buttons are the province of the Keynesians, who believed that a massive stimulus is what was needed
And those who don’t really understand Keynes continue to pound on him without actually knowing whether they are hitting the target.
sam
October 5th, 2011
9:25 am
how would this goofball explain my skipping work 3 times a week to play golf?
ByteMe
October 5th, 2011
9:25 am
Any stimulus will solely benefit china
Not true. Build me 1000 Hoover Dams and lets see who it benefits.
Doggone/GA
October 5th, 2011
9:25 am
“If I were taxed at 90% over a certain income level, once I reached that level, I’d stop working too”
But since no one has actually proposed such a tax rate….what’s your point?
Trotsky Foxtrot
October 5th, 2011
9:25 am
Jm: “Keynesianism doesn’t work in a global flat hot crowded economy”
In other words Keynesianism doesn’t work without a vast underclass of exploit
edable workers to drive up profits.“Mick stiglitz is a liberal”
Neoliberal actually, as is everyone in the American political class (except a couple of rebels like Bernie Sanders).
ByteMe
October 5th, 2011
9:26 am
how would this goofball explain my skipping work 3 times a week to play golf?
Maybe the goofball hates golf. No one has offered that as an explanation yet.
Granny Godzilla
October 5th, 2011
9:26 am
“A rational economist today observes that the bureaucratic clamps on the economy have taken effect, and the prospect of higher taxes will affect incentives”
Like Ms. Ries?
Who was so demonstrably wrong?
MountainMan
October 5th, 2011
9:27 am
Two UCLA economists say they have figured out why the Great Depression dragged on for almost 15 years, and they blame a suspect previously thought to be beyond reproach: President Franklin D. Roosevelt.
After scrutinizing Roosevelt’s record for four years, Harold L. Cole and Lee E. Ohanian conclude in a new study that New Deal policies signed into law 71 years ago thwarted economic recovery for seven long years.
“Why the Great Depression lasted so long has always been a great mystery, and because we never really knew the reason, we have always worried whether we would have another 10- to 15-year economic slump,” said Ohanian, vice chair of UCLA’s Department of Economics. “We found that a relapse isn’t likely unless lawmakers gum up a recovery with ill-conceived stimulus policies.”
Jm
October 5th, 2011
9:27 am
Politico
1/2 of obama’s 2012 money has come from wall st
Occupy wall st must be against obama
Thulsa Doom
October 5th, 2011
9:27 am
Trotsky,
Perhaps you need a review of economic history- mainly the great depression. The great depression lasted a decade despite massive Keynesian intervention. As many economists know Keynesian economics didn’t work then and they won’t work today. Not long term anyway. You will get a very short termp bump as we have just seen with stimulus 1 but it came at the cost of a suffocating debt burden which in the long term makes things worse.
Perhaps if liberals simply read some history books they would have a more thorough understanding of the simple fact that Keynesian economics didn’t work during the great depression and didn’t work with the first stimulus. And yet you think it would work now? Truly nothing short of amazing.
TaxPayer
October 5th, 2011
9:29 am
Only the conned could believe that we can wage two wars and give out a prescription drug company benefit and pay for it all with tax cuts.
ByteMe
October 5th, 2011
9:29 am
Two UCLA economists say they have figured out why the Great Depression dragged on for almost 15 years
Hahahahahahahahaha!!!! The depression has been studied by a HUGE number of economists — as has most credit crisis-driven recessions in other countries — and these two think they have “the answer”? There’s a bridge that connects Brooklyn to Manhattan that I happen to own and it’s for sale. Got cash?
Don't Forget
October 5th, 2011
9:30 am
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
October 5th, 2011
9:12 am
More of the same. Class warfare and berate GWB/Cheney. BTW…Cheney has a good point, Obama should apologize for criticizing the Bush administration on water boarding.
Recon,
After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: “I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure.” He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. “Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning,” he replied, “just gasping between life and death.”
Nielsen’s experience was not unique. Nor was the prosecution of his captors. After Japan surrendered, the United States organized and participated in the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, generally called the Tokyo War Crimes Trials. Leading members of Japan’s military and government elite were charged, among their many other crimes, with torturing Allied military personnel and civilians. The principal proof upon which their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call waterboarding.
In this case from the tribunal’s records, the victim was a prisoner in the Japanese-occupied Dutch East Indies:
A towel was fixed under the chin and down over the face. Then many buckets of water were poured into the towel so that the water gradually reached the mouth and rising further eventually also the nostrils, which resulted in his becoming unconscious and collapsing like a person drowned. This procedure was sometimes repeated 5-6 times in succession.
The United States (like Britain, Australia and other Allies) pursued lower-ranking Japanese war criminals in trials before their own tribunals.
Recon, why should we be allowed to waterboard when we have prosecuted other countries for war crimes for doing the same thing?
Jm
October 5th, 2011
9:30 am
Byteme 9:25
Duh
No one. Because we have no need for 1000 hoover dams
Turn the neurons on
ByteMe
October 5th, 2011
9:30 am
The great depression lasted a decade despite massive Keynesian intervention
Also not intended to be a factual statement. See my 9:18.
scott
October 5th, 2011
9:30 am
Jay “It’s amazing how quickly every topic devolves into “Oh yeah, well Obama sucks!”
The truth hurts!
Thomas
October 5th, 2011
9:31 am
WWII the largest jobs program the USA ever had….
and with money borrowed to boot!
No, no, no Granny- that was Cheney’s mindset. Pls go take a shot of wheat grass and walk around the block.
TaxPayer
October 5th, 2011
9:31 am
Occupy wall st must be against obama
What are you waiting for then.
Wes T.
October 5th, 2011
9:32 am
Wow. Good tax reform has to be regressive (i.e. punitive against the working and middle class) by definition? It’s saddening the extent to which the lunatics have taken over the GOP asylum. May the Founding Fathers forgive us.
Jm
October 5th, 2011
9:32 am
Simple answers to stupid questions
Byteme
Thulsa Doom
October 5th, 2011
9:33 am
“Not true. Build me 1000 Hoover Dams and lets see who it benefits.”Byteme
Build me 1000 Solyndras and lets see who it benefits.
ByteMe
October 5th, 2011
9:33 am
Because we have no need for 1000 hoover dams
Turn the neurons on
Jm, I could say the same to you as well… perhaps instead of dams, which is what we needed in 1933, we rebuild crumbling bridges, outdated schools, and outdated power grids instead. All of which would employ lots of construction people who are out of work… and who don’t make enough to save, so all their money goes back into the economy and increases demand.
Don’t be such a literalist.
professional skeptic
October 5th, 2011
9:33 am
But that’s a burden they should be willing to bear, she said.
The corporatist’s modern spin on “Let them eat cake.”
ty webb
October 5th, 2011
9:35 am
speaking of Hoover Dam, has anyone seen those horrible “lean forward” commercials starring that boy from the harry potter movies?
Paul
October 5th, 2011
9:35 am
Sure didn’t take the Right long to veer off on many tangents to avoid addressing the point that lowering taxes on the wealthy and business will not have the effect the Heritage Foundation projects, as borne out by what happened on the national level.
Ignorance is blisssssssss.
AmVet
October 5th, 2011
9:35 am
“…those on the left who supported Iraq were shameless, cowards who viewed the move as cynically as Karl Rove.”
Joe, agreed.
I’ve often wondered how Clinton, et al made the ridiculous decision they did, to let the boy Caesar invade the wrong country.
I know there was gargantuan political pressure, by those chest-pounding Republicowards, and perhaps they made a calculated decision to acquiesce to those gutless idiots, in order to survive and fight another day.
I can only guess what they were thinking, but what are a few thousand needlessly dead GI’s compared to political expedience?
There was only a tiny handful of them, who I believed when they said that in retrospect “they made a mistake”.
As for the 97.4% of the generally never-served pieces of ____ who got on their knees for the crusading Republican emperor, they can ALL rot in hell…