Romney: ‘Individual mandate seen as conservative idea’

Embed needs tweaking, Jay.

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Conservatives were for it before they were against it.

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Figures.

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From the Wiki:

An individual mandate is a requirement by a government that certain individual citizens purchase or otherwise obtain a good or service.

In the United States, the United States Congress has enacted two individual mandates, the first was never federally enforced, while the second is not scheduled to take effect until 2014. The Militia Acts of 1792, based on the Constitution’s militia clause (in addition to its affirmative authorization to raise an army and a navy), would have required every “free able-bodied white male citizen” between the ages of 18 and 45, with a few occupational exceptions, to “provide himself” a weapon and ammunition;[1] however, its constitutionality was never litigated.[2] Federal medical insurance legislation signed in 2010 imposes a health insurance mandate to take effect in 2014, based on the Congressional power to regulate interstate commerce, but the legislation is controversial: in 2010, a majority of states joined litigation in federal court arguing that the power to “regulate” commerce does not include an affirmative power to compel commerce by penalizing inaction; as of 2011, the several court rulings on the matter have disagreed about whether the mandate is constitutional.[3][4][5] In 1994, the Congressional Budget Office issued a report describing an individual mandate as “an unprecedented form of federal action… The government has never required people to buy any good or service as a condition of lawful residence in the United States.”[6]

It matters not from whence the idea came, Jay. Stop using little tidbits of news as a springboard for converting the masses. Why don’t you figure out first where the legal, constitutional precedence for this lies? THEN write a column.

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I’m a conservative, and I agree completely with the individual mandate. I suspect many don’t because Obama does, and because at first glance it appears to be an attack on freedom. But I don’t think it is at all in a society where everyone is going to be taken care of, at least to a certain extent, no matter how much money they have. In a way we already have mandatory insurance – part of Social Security is disability insurance.

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Judson Hill, a conservative state senator from Cobb County and Gingrich acolyte, introduced a bill in Georgia back in 2007 to impose an individual mandate. That same Sen. Hill later sponsored a resolution declaring the individual mandate unconstitutional.

Probably played well to the liberals in Ga. though.

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Jay’s changing topics like every hour or so. The man is productive, I’ll give him that….

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Knives out for Romney….. shocker

The man might wallop Obama.

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pogo,

It is corporate welfare.

The cons in the SC loves them some corporate.

Guess what will happen?

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and there’s a difference between an idea developed and touted by “conservatives” and a “conservative idea”.

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“I’m a conservative, and I agree completely with the individual mandate. I suspect many don’t because Obama does, and because at first glance it appears to be an attack on freedom.”

One reason for the mandate is to, of course, insure no one is “gaming” the system – taking but not giving (which is legitimate in my view). Here’s my solution for that: you either must buy insurance OR you must sign a waiver relieving the state or federal government from any responsibility for your health care until such time that you decide otherwise and you pay a sum of money equal to the amount you would have paid had you purchased health care when the bill was enacted. There are some people of independent means who can pay out of pocket. Why FORCE them to buy insurance?

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oh, and George Bush also called himself a “conservative”, does that make it so?

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“Jay’s changing topics like every hour or so. The man is productive, I’ll give him that….”

jm,
it’s quality, not quantity.

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“you either must buy insurance OR you must sign a waiver relieving the state or federal government from any responsibility for your health care until such time that you decide otherwise and you pay a sum of money equal to the amount you would have paid had you purchased health care when the bill was enacted.”

That will NEVER work, and I’m not willing to stand by and watch a person die just because they were too stupid to buy insurance. Make them buy insurance.

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And the shamelessness of that ideological flip still astounds.

Yep.

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Do you really want to be forced to buy corporate crap?

I don’t.

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“There are some people of independent means who can pay out of pocket. Why FORCE them to buy insurance?”

Fine. If you have a gross income exceeding some low 7 digit number, you don’t have to buy insurance. Everyone else does. For the very poor, the government buys it for them.

One thing I would like to see is the price of medical insurance go up for people who are overweight (excluding medical conditions) and who smoke.

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“Then, to be consistent, you need to enact a whole lot more legislation (because people do foolish things habitually all of the time which threaten their lives).”

But I don’t have to pay for those things.

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I’ve been saying the same thing- it’s irresponsible to not have health insurance and some people are all too willing to let others pay for their irresponsibility- I’ve never understood the wingnut poutrage over this except as Jay wrote, its because Obama was for it too!

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“Again — evangelicals have been choosing the Republican nominee for president since Nixon.”

You have a generalized and distorted view of the Christian voting block, I think. “Evangelical” is a religious and media term that applies to some portion of the practicing Christians in America. It is ill-defined and therefore nebulous.

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This proposal was made when the GOP was quite different.

Today’s hyper-dysfunctional Republican Party does not think about solutions.

The Party of No does not act.

It reacts.

It works this way.

If non-Republicans are for something – they are opposed.

if non-Republicans are against something – they are for it.

The merits, reasons, etc, do not enter into it.

Pick a topic, any topic – climate change, the environment in general, education, protecting middle class interests, tax codes, foreign policy, gays, minorities, healthcare for all, chosen, botched invasions and occupations.

How one group can be so wrong about damn near everything is the only mystery…

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Well, my buddy Joe Bill says it’s his right to go to a hospitle and stick the bill to the taxpayers and the insurance cos. You may recall Joe Bill fell off of his house roof right onto his head about a year ago. He says it actually helped his thinking powers but now the hospitle and the Drs. are after him and they’re suing him and trying to take his farm.

Joe Bill always points out that thousands of people without insurance go to a emergency room every year and never pay a cent. A hospitle has to treat them. It’s the law. He don’t see why he should be singled out and made to pay. And he don’t see why he should be forced to take out a insurance policy or else get socked with extra tax. He says he should have the same rights to sock it to people as everybody else. I got to agree with him. I got a right to walk around like a kind of exploding premium and tax bomb if I want to. Somebody should pay for my medical care but it oughtn’t to be me or Joe Bill either if I get sick or hurt. We got to have Freedom or else we got nothing. It’s just tough sh-t some poor suckers are going to wind up paying for mine and Joe Bill’s care. That’s the price of living in a Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave. I mean, just look at that picture of Bookman. He looks kind of rich to me. He can afford a few extra bucks for them to patch me up.

That’s my opinion and it’s very true. I would write more but Fox News is on and I got to learn the Truth about what’s going on in this world. Not that twisted pablum the librul channels feed us. Have a good night everybody.

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“This is not the only issue the suddenly fiscal cons don’t support because OUR President supports it.

The American jobs bill he wrote is full of them.”

Most conservatives object less to what is in the jobs bill than how to pay for it.

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“I’ve been saying the same thing- it’s irresponsible to not have health insurance and some people are all too willing to let others pay for their irresponsibility- I’ve never understood the wingnut poutrage over this except as Jay wrote, its because Obama was for it too!”

Well, Bosch, it’s not just the Constitutional issue for me. It’s (as I’ve said elsewhere) that I simply don NOT trust the government to manage health care to any great extent. And that should not be hard for liberals to understand, since they arguably have an equally great distrust of corporations (actually, I tend to distrust them both). I simply do not see a lot of evidence that the government handles much very well, and that is the basis for my mistrust. Not getting mail on Saturday is not going to kill me. Bad medical rules may.

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“What a shame.”

It sets a horrible precedent.

Next they will force us to buy some other corporate crap.

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Strawman

That is a strawman- the govt will not be providing the service.

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Jay, ideas are ideas and people are people.

Repetition is repetition, and tautology is saying the same thing with different words.

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OR you must sign a waiver relieving the state or federal government from any responsibility blah blah blah

Yes, that worked SO well for fire protection.

http://consumerist.com/2010/10/firefighters-watch-as-home-burns-to-ground.html

And why do you think it’ll save money? What happens when somebody has TB and we end up paying MORE when it spreads? Wow, what an efficient use of our healthcare system.

Plus, if you think doctors, EMT’s and others are going to sit and watch people die for lack of money, you must think your innate sociopathic behavior is normal. Newsflash: it ain’t.

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“Well, Bosch, it’s not just the Constitutional issue for me. It’s (as I’ve said elsewhere) that I simply don NOT trust the government to manage health care to any great extent. ”

I agree, Strawman. I don’t think requiring people to buy insurance is the government managing health care. I think the government should regulate PRIVATE insurance companies (”you can’t kick someone out who makes a claim”, “you can’t raise your premiums on an individual who makes a claim more than X% unless you raise them on everyone”, etc.). People should also be free to buy as much insurance as they want above the minimum.

By the way, it isn’t just the poor who don’t buy insurance. Sometimes it is the young and healthy who simply choose to take the risk.

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“how to pay for it.”

Yeah, figure out how you can pay for w’s bills first.

Drug plan, tax cuts, wars, etc…….

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“You must think your innate sociopathic behavior is normal.”

Yours is well on display, so you tell me. Are you normal? The whole question will be moot if the SCOTUS rule the individual mandate is unconstitutional. Whine all you wish then, it won’t amount to a hill of beans (except of course the handful of rabid ideologues who share your myopic view of things).

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AmVet

Apparently they don’t care their arguments are hypocritical, inconsistent, and based on made up stuff.

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“They don’t trust Uncle Sam even in the face of mountains of evidence that the current dysfunctional system as foisted on the people by inept profiteers is a deadly travesty.”

And you don’t trust corporations – you loathe them (as evidenced above). So either you are too dense too comprehend (and be accepting of the fact) that other people can distrust other things than you do, or else you are a willfully blind person.

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“Democrats want the umpire to make the batter have to close his eyes if his team is leading. Republicans want the batter to call his own balls and strikes. Neither works. Government has a role and the private sector has a role. When one encroaches on the other’s territory, the results are usually not good.”

Well put, G. And I don’t have an issue with government providing some oversight. I simply don’t want it steering the course of my own (or anyone else’s heathcare to an appreciable extent). I have worked for the government and I have worked for fortune 500 corporations (as well as small businesses). I have seen the problems in both sectors.

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“Right out of Frank Luntz’ playbook…”

Wow…I guess I should have read that (it would have saved me from having to think about this matter independently). Like I said, buddy, you need to step on the gas.

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Kamchak

September 29th, 2011
6:02 pm
“Again — evangelicals have been choosing the Republican nominee for president since Nixon.”

There’s your card.

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(it would have saved me from having to think about this matter independently).

Uh, huh.

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That the modern day flagellants in the far right wing want to be abused by their Wall Street overlords and monied masters is fine by me.

Hell, they can sell tickets to their beatdowns for all I care.

All I’m interested in is stopping them from taking everybody else down with them…

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Perhaps gubment managed health care will be as good as gubment subsidized green energy. Solyndra?

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If we could just get the Republicans out of their permanent campaign mode, we might finally have a Washington that serves the people, not the other way around. But what are the chances of that happening with their a dismal economic record created during the Bush administration, that is still dealing us fits today.

Too bad they can’t acknowledge their enormous economic mistakes; for if they could, they would have been helping our president help the people these last three years, instead of trying to destroy him with everything they’ve got.

How much longer before the American people see through their self-serving shenanigans and get behind our president with everything THEY’VE got and get this country speeding forward again? Not much longer, Jay, for the writing is clearly on the wall; and the sooner they get started, the better it will be for all of us!!!!

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Hypocrisy?

Soooo is the Repub hypocrisy kinda like the Democrat hypocrisy regarding gitmo, war in Iraq and Afgh, the Patriot Act? Why yes! It is! Seems to me that Obama has kept the vast majority of Bush policies regarding prisoners of war, gitmo, Patriot act, conduct of the Iraq/Afghn wars, etc.

Speaking of the Patriot Act where are all them ticked off hypocritical Dems complaining about Republican invasions of civil liberties with the Patriot Act? Where dey at? Aint heard a peep from them since Obama came into the white house.

Aint heard a peep from all them war protesters either since Obama came into office. What happened to them? Did they get lost? Were they anti-Patriot Act and Anti-war? Or just anti-Bush? Where dey at???

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“If I were to, as you say, “step on the gas,” I would lap you yet another time.”

Please…that conjures up a most unpleasant mental image. I suggested you throw out your bubblegum, not extend your tongue out of you mouth and….apply it. Talk to AquaGirl or AmVet…they may be more obliging.

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I suggested you throw out your bubblegum, not extend your tongue out of you[sic] mouth and….apply it.

I’ll make a note….

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Oh Lawdy. Libruls quoting Frank Luntz and Fox News. It doesn’t get any funnier.

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When Mitch McConnell announced the number one goal of the Republicans was the defeat of Obama in 2012, he meant every word of it. Republicans will paint Obama in the worst possible way no matter what he does. And, if he comes up with a healthcare idea that was originally concieved by conservatives, Republicans will trash it any way they can. This shows that Republicans care only for Party and nothing for the American people. As for the “shamelessness of that idelogical flip”, you cann shame those who have no ability to feel that emotion.

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getalife

September 29th, 2011
7:06 pm

“The gop want to go back to their collapse..

Their strategy to derail our recovery was working until we still grew the economy.”

getalife,

Just curious but if the democrats were doing such a good job of growing the economy when they had the presidency and BOTH houses of Congress during obama’s first 2 years then how come they couldn’t grow the economy? And how come they then got decimated in the last election cycle if they were doing such a fine job?

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Calling your opponent a hypocrite has no meaning in a court of law. It doesn’t matter what Conservatives have said or done; the objective is to erase the law from the books. The moonbats here see that as a big injustice. Voters will either agree or disagree with that Nov 2012. My money is on Republicans being given POTUS and the Senate making it unnecessary to depend on SCOTUS for repeal.

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As a libertarian I don’t care who came up with the individual mandate, I just know that I don’t like it.

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It continually amazes me there are posters here who believe Republicans would send the country down the toilet just to defeat Obama. Grab the dunce hat and stool; 30 minutes in the corner.

The stand-off is over ideology – how things are done – not THE person doing it. If Obama was doing the right thing for the country, we would all be holding hands and singing.

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Oh, and his cosponsor was that paragon of wisdom and ethics, the great Sen. Chip Rogers.

Wow, Jay! Your keyboard didn’t burst out in flames when you typed that?

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My solution is simple. If you don’t want an individual mandate then fine. But if you choose to go without health insurance and you get sick then here’s what you owe. We treat you but then the govt fines you the cost of what a policy would have cost you for every month that you went without health insurance when you should have had it plus a ten or twenty percent penalty to add some bite to it. We are a humanitarian nation, we all believe in treating each other, but if you choose to go without insurance when you can at least afford a catastrophic policy then you should pay in arrears for the insurance you should have had plus a penalty. Now I’ll kick back and watch all hell break loose.

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Taxpayer,

If you want to drive on Georgia roadways without purchasing car insurance you can do so legally. But you have to put up a surety bond of 100k I believe it is.

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Aquagirl,

No tequila. I had 18 shots of tequila one night years ago- or at least that’s how many they claim I had on my bill, hit on the hot bartender openly in front of her boyfriend, and had the cops rolling up to the bar as my friends pushed me into the backseat and got us the hell outta there. 30 seconds more and I woulda been in jail. That was the last time I drank tequila hard although I do occassionally sip a fine tequila like patron which is a whole level different from cheap a$$ jose cuervo.

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Thulsa Doom

There’s more to campaign mode than getting financial support, Doom. As usual, you missed the gist of the post. And besides, why would a Republican president need to start so early with the Koch Brothers and others like them on his side. Now try addressing my real post…if you can!

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Oops, hit submit too soon

Did you mean to type, “…not extend your tongue out of you mouth…” instead of “your mouth”?

If so, then sorry, my bad.

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“We currently have over one thousand five hundred different insurance plans in this country, each with their own marketing, paperwork, enrollment, premiums, rules, and regulations. Our clusterf&ck of an insurance system is *extremely> complex, fragmented and inefficient.”

We used to have one postal service that…oh yeah, was run by the government. How did the work out over the years? I hear it worked so well that no company has ever arisen to offer competitive services.

“We currently rank 37th in the world on healthcare”

Yes, by all objective measures. We should never consider the sources of our information…just trust that it is factual, correct and presented solely in the interests of spreading the truth. Amen, brother!

“Our per capital costs for healthcare are 42% higher than in Switzerland.”

This is a problem

“14.9% of our GDP is spent on health care and the cost is growing rapidly. Japan spends 7.6% of its GDP, Australia 8.5%, Holland 8.6% and Canada 9.5%. By 2013, per capita health care spending in the U.S. is projected to increase to 18.4 percent of GDP.”

This, too, is a problem.

Physicians in the U.S. face massive bureaucratic costs. The average office-based American doctor employs 1.5 clerical and managerial staff, spends 44% of gross income on overhead, and devotes 134 hours of his/her own time annually to billing. Canadian physicians employ 0.7 clerical/administrative staff, spend 34% of their gross income for overhead, and trivial amounts of time on billing (there’s a single half page form for all patients, or a simple electronic system).

This is a problem.

“Typical government estimates put the figure for billing fraud and abuse at 10 percent of annual spending, amounting to over $150 billion annually.”

Good point. I can rest assured that the government will be defrauded because, trusting soul that I am, I know there is no prior history of that. What’s that hun? What? It paid out 600 million to dead people recently??? No…I REFUSE to believe that…you are just being a stupid, obstinate person making up things because you have this ungrounded and superstitious and irrational distrust of the government!!! You are going to divorce me? Go ahead.

“And finally two letters for the Uncle sam haters – VA.”

Ah…the coup de grace. I am slain by the dent of this argument, felled by two solitary letters! Has there ever been a stronger compulsion to believe something in all of history than this?? Wait…I have made use of the VA a number of times…I DON”T have to blithely believe one person’s assessment of it.

It doesn’t have to be the VA or the highway! There doesn’t have to be THIS solution of NONE AT ALL. There’s a problem. But fascist liberals want to FORCE me to accept THEIR solution. That is creepy and Orwellian.

“Everybody in, nobody out. Single Payer Now!”

Oh oh. Is this why they want to take away our guns? So we’ll be easier to control?

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kayaker,

Premiums are rising primarily due to anticipation of the new health care law and the new mandates included in it. Interestingly these new mandates do not get much mention as being a factor in the ever rising cost of health insurance.

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Jay,

I suppose then that the so-called Bush tax rates are now a liberal idea, since they are now voted into reality by Democrats.
sayanythingblog.com/entry/obama-flashback-you-dont-raise-taxes-in-a-recession
Tax cuts were a tool too of JFK, and Democrats to incentivize growth when growth was needed–which is all true, of course. Perhaps, because Obama is now touting big tax hikes (against the will of even the liberal Congress, by the way), we should be astounded at the shamlessness of the flip.

Why don’t you tell us, Mr. highly paid, accutely aware columnist?

REQUIRED READING for the day
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/278633/postmodern-class-warfare-victor-davis-hanson

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/278526/obama-s-racial-crisis-victor-davis-hanson

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Dang it Jay…. you read my answer as I was typing it, changed it some and then made sure yours posted with a prior timestamp….

The benefits of being the High Priest of the Blog I guess.

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Ignoramus. Good job. No great job.

The only guy on the planet who seems to advocate for 1,500 different postal services in this country.

Sadly not the only guy on the planet who takes issue with our ranking of 37th in the world. I presume because he provided absolutely nothing substantive to countermand it, he infers we are actually 36th?

Sometimes I feel like Clarence Darrow – “I made up my mind to show the country what an ignoramus he was, and I succeeded.”

oldguy, then don’t move to Canada.

We irrefutably have an utterly broken and deadly system and where are your beloved GOP’s “solutions” to this debacle?

They went batshiite crazy in 1993 and again in 2010.

And in the interim did exactly nothing for we the people.

If not so tragic, it would be humorous…

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oldguy,

I’m in the medicare business as several people on here well know. I attended a seminar by a Medicare consultant. When the conversation got to nationalized health care he had one thing to say. His biggest client was an oncologist in Buffalo who regularly treated many Canadians who came across the border to get timely care for cancer detection and treatment because it takes so long in Canada. That was all he needed to know.

Some other things to consider. Google the number of MRI machines in Canada and you will see that there are few MRI machines per 100,000 people compared to the U.S. Health care is more expensive here but its not rationed as it is in Canada.

Also there are comparisons on health care to folks such as the Swiss and Japan. Well. Switzerland, Japan, and several of those European countries are small and largely homogenous with smaller minority populations than the U.S. This is not to blame minorities by any means but in the U.S. its a well known fact that diabetes, hypertension, etc. are more endemic in Hispanic and especially black citiizens. Also those countries aren’t as fat and fast food addicted as we are. There are other factors at play.

As for being 37th in the world in health care that is an entirely misleading publication and full of holes.

As for physicians, red tape, and the cost of clerical and overhead anyone who thinks that the federal govt could administer these costs in a cheaper and more efficient manner needs their head examined. I have several Medicare kiosks one of which is at a local Walmart. Walmart vision centers quit accepting Medicare because of the problems with billing and the red tape of dealing with medicare. Ask a vision center manager at Walmart who had to deal with medicare what its like to deal with Medicare and they will relate some nightmares.

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Thulsa Doom

Nope, you missed again, Doom. From the time Rush Limbaugh issued his “I hope he fails” decree, you party has been VERY non-cooperative, trying, in fact, to stop this president from righting all the trouble your party caused any way they can.

Arguing and shading all you want will not change the facts. Your whole party wants this president to fail, and has for all three years – period. I know it, the American people know it, so why you can’t get it?

Doom, I was certain thought you were smarter than this.

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“Did you mean to type, “…not extend your tongue out of you mouth…” instead of “your mouth”

Yeah…it’s called a typographical error (or typo for short). But I appreciate the use of sic…that was not incorrect or appropriate. Good catch.

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Jay @ 7:50,

They’ve been rising because the largest payors of medical care in this country are federal government programs that have been getting bigger and bigger enrollments with people who are living longer and longer and requiring more expensive car. The government does not pay the entire cost, yet mandates that providers who receive any payments from these programs (and some providers like Emergency rooms have no choice) also provide service at whatever price the government will pay.

Essentially, the government has been stealing service for its clients and then requiring the providers to stick it to private individuals and insurance companies to pay the difference. See chart below:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/07/does_medicare_pay_below_cost_w.html

Ignore that if you want, but don’t pretend (yet again) that I didn’t say anything when you respond, should you care to do so.

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Obviously other countries are providing comparable or at least adequate healthcare as compared to ours but are doing it for their entire populations for less, much less. Otherwise, I’m sure we would be hearing about thousands and thousands of examples of people in these countries suffering from a lack of healthcare instead of the handful of examples that some people struggle to compile and present for our viewing pleasure, amongst other things. In fact, given all the people that some claim come here to the US in order to escape the horrors of their own local healthcare systems, shouldn’t there be massive sections of youtube and Facebook devoted to these cases. Stories published in National Geographic and Time magazines. Front page coverage on the AJC and Wahington Post, etc. Where’s the beef, people.

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I certainly won’t!! I get great medical care here and I would expect the many thousands of perple who come to the US for their medical care think its good also.
p.s. where is more than HALF of all medical research done?

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“I deal with a number of vets, a lot of them in Medicare and I hear both sides of the VA. About half my guys are healthy and pleased with the VA because they go to the outpatient clinics and generally they feel very good aobut their care.

Then there is the other half. Its not unusual for them to get very critical drugs late or not at all because of shortages. I’ve personally witnessed this first hand and that is not cool. ”

Don’t suggest there might be anything wrong with the grand plan envisioned by AV (wow..that is the mirror image of VA…creepy)…he doesn’t want to hear it (or even go back to the bargaining table to arrive at a solution most people can support). It’s VA or the highway!

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oldguy, your stories are interesting.

Just relatively useless compared to empirical data..

VA System a Model for Health Care, Experts Say

http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/content/95/21/1570.2.full

The VA Advantage: The Gold Standard in Clinical Informatics

How does a healthcare organization undergo such transformation as described in the lead paper in eight short years? Just imagine being part of an organization that achieved the following transformations:

reduction in hospital and long-term-care beds from 92,000 to 53,000 and an increase in outpatient clinics from 200 to 850
a 75% increase in the number of patients treated on an annual basis (from 2.8 million to 4.9 million) with only a 32% cumulative increase in budget (from $19 billion to $25 billion)
clinicians who have access to complete medical records for almost all patient visits and all care settings
clinicians who willingly enter medication orders 94% of the time
patients who are increasingly satisfied with their care, ranking the service consistently higher than the competition
improved patient outcomes, achieved at costs 25% less than the competition

Such transformation is impossible to achieve without vision, leadership, talent, teamwork and tools. I will restrict my comments to a discussion of the tools, specifically the VA’s clinical information system (VistA, HealtheVet, My HealtheVet. However, it is important to note that the results described in this paper would not be possible without the VA’s transformational leadership and dedicated teams of professionals capable of executing the vision.

http://www.longwoods.com/content/17383

You may hate it but the VA rocks.

They blow completely out of the water everything I’ve ever encountered in the “free market” (HA!)

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Again, thank you Bookman for providing a forum for the liberals to demonstrate their love for mankind and for all Americans on the blogosphere.

such warm fuzzies from your supporters.. ha ha

Umm, on the VA, Amvet, it most definitely depends on your situation…

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Kam,

The National Review is better than a poker, because unlike the ajc, it actually enlightens as it pursuades. The ajc just ticks off what it considers its inertial, jingoistic, hootenanny, redneck, birther, racist countrymen (and country) that it loathes.

Anyway, would be VERY interested in the liberal perspective on what Hanson wrote.

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Well, I know about a health care system that has been highly successful in containing costs, yet provides excellent care. And the story of this system’s success provides a helpful corrective to anti-government ideology. For the government doesn’t just pay the bills in this system — it runs the hospitals and clinics.

Oh, and one more thing: the veterans health system bargains hard with medical suppliers, and pays far less for drugs than most private insurers. ~Paul Krugman

http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2006/01/paul_krugman_on_1.html

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“Lord, what fools these mortals be!” — William Shakespeare, Midsummer Night Dream, Scene 3, Act 2.

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Kammy — a friend posted that on Facebook.

I nearly bust a gut laughing when I saw it.

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I think the govrment plan fer united medicare is jus fine. Obama, he talks good and them dum conservationists, well, they…they…their jus dum. I dunno why they jus kant trust Uncle Sam. I mean, he’s dun right by me. I ain’t had ta work sense I I got my disabilitee for drinking. Man…that stuff jus had a hole on me. Uncle Sam, he pays all my bills. I like thet. My doctur, tho, he I don think he takes much of a likin ta me. I tole him…look, you gettin paid..wats ur beef, man? Their was a whole bunch of other folks from tha housin projek their wit me. He didnt seem to like them eithur. Them rich folks…they got it all and they shuld be helpin disabiliteed folks like me out. I cant help mysulf. Obama nows that.

Ewww…Judge Judy is on…I gotta go. You shuld see this big scren TV I got now. If I didn’t have that, I wager Id jus go back to drink. See, Sam takes care of y’all.

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If the evil socialized VA is good enough for our Sacred Military Heroes, then socialized medicine should be good enough for those tooling around with the standard Republican-approved yellow ribbon on your SUV’s.

Unless, of course, that whole support the troops(tm) thing is only lip service. I’m quite sure there’s some other explanation. Like the dog ate their homework.

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“And the vets, who are the patients, themselves agree.”

Sorry, I have heard different stories- positive and negative…

Not saying it sucks. Just that in a lot of circumstances you could get better/prompt care.

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“Google the number of MRI machines in Canada and you will see that there are few MRI machines per 100,000 people compared to the U.S. Health care is more expensive here but its not rationed as it is in Canada.”

Most likely because in the US, you can get away with charging north of a grand for a proceedure that actually costs less than $100 to perform.

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Sorry, blue…lol.

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There are many exemptions being granted to this wonderful health care program. For instance, if you are Amish, you get a pass. Don’t mind giving up radio, tv, ac, lights, computers, phones, clocks, cars, planes, or indoor plumbing. Don’t mind have to say thee and thou. But those beards really itch. And have to ever seen an Amish bikini? But if this wonderful universal healthcare program is the greatest thing since the clapper, why are there exemptions for anyone? Why are all members of congress exempt. Why are unions goons exempt? You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to understand that the cost of medical care will sky rocket and the quality will nose dive. Bill Clinton felt my pain. Barry is causing my pain.

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Aquagirl,

From what I hear the good ol’ VA is NOT good enough. Case in point, look at the Walter Reed hospital scandal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Reed_Army_Medical_Center_neglect_scandal

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Betty….Are you a Vet? Ever received treatment there? I didn’t think so! So who are you to say anything factual about the VA? You’re like the guy who says she said that he said Panos and paul’s was an awful restaurant….

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Interesting discussions about the hermanator on the networks

The guy may have some mo, at least for now

Perry says that Cain offers twice that. Something about a mofo, whatever that is.

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moonbat,

you didn’t even look at my mug, did ya. I’m crushed.

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“If the evil socialized VA is good enough for our Sacred Military Heroes, then socialized medicine should be good enough for those tooling around with the standard Republican-approved yellow ribbon on your SUV’s.

Unless, of course, that whole support the troops(tm) thing is only lip service. I’m quite sure there’s some other explanation. Like the dog ate their homework.

The one-point wonder strikes again. Come on, girl friend, it’s easy: put one foot in front of the other, step, other foot, step…and so on. You can string some words together, now just do that with thoughts! I’ll tell you what: I will lend you a primer on rhetoric and composition. That’s bound to help.

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You’re mug?

Where?

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You’re mug?

Where?

The link in my 8:39 post.

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buck@gon ….You say this “I don’t have first-hand or even second hand experience with wounded soldiers. All I know is what people I work with say (third hand) that the VA sucks!

And as one who has first-hand experience with the VA, your friends are probably sequestered on the section 8 ward!

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Jay,

So, you’re going to pretend that the chart didn’t exist?

Typical.

I suppose my flaw was citing evidence that I knew before the fact, you will pretend wasn’t there.

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buck, somehow your eagle eyes seem to have missed my posts at 7:11, 7:57 and especially at 8:13.

It’s OK, you can stay completely clueless and ignorant on these matters, regarding the superior care at the VA.

You don’t want it to be true, so for you, it isn’t.

Ain’t no skin off my back.

But your monied masters are just laughing at you…

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“The link in my 8:39 post.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WFHsDHXIEQ

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Additionally, as our little free market buddies will tell you, evidence of more units in one country over another does not mean that optimal use has been achieved and indeed there may be a glut of machines and underusage in the US.

So, your insinuation is that medical decision-makers are wasting money on machines they don’t need?

Maybe.

You see, medical providers can go out of business for making bad decisions, and then the machines will be sold for pennies on the dollar to those who make good decisions.

Not so for government. Spending goes up each year on a baseline budget, and no force in the universe can stop this irresistable lurch into insolvency.

Except the Tea Party 2012, a Republican Senate and any one of the candidates who will certainly replace Obama in January 2013.

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Thanks Midori. Most people just can’t resist that full head of hair.

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Thanks for that info, 71.

buck and others seem to think that anyone who extols the praises of the VA system is somehow claiming that it is perfect.

What prompts such thought processes is beyond me.

OF COURSE, there are lots of problems with the VA. And lots of horror stories.

And just to make it extremely clear, my claiming it is the Gold Standard is meaningless.

That many credential, respected experts around the country do is not…

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“irresistible lurch into insolvency”

Now that is a great phrase. At first, I thought the use of the word lurch was inapt because I envisioned this slow sinking into a kind of quicksand. But, upon reconsideration, I thought that if the medical costs were to escalate out of of sight due to…ahem…”unintended consequences,” then yes, there would be this kind of “lurch” into oblivion. Kudos, Buck.

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Buck,

The one problem with the VA system in general is that of patient rooms. It was common for patient to be 6 to a room in dormitory style care. The ones that were long term were not a problem but sick patients crowded together like that is not great. Their out patient depts were exceptional. Wait times were usually under 15 min and rarely over 30min.
I only have experience with hospital in which I have worked or those in which I have been a patient. I had open heart surgery in 2009 at Crawford Long (now called Emory Downtown) and have never received the quality of care that I got at that facility. It was outstanding. Also been a patient at the Coliseum Medical Center in Macon where I received outstanding care. It varies as to where you are so perhaps I have just been lucky. The big centers like Cleveland Clinic and Mayo always stand out. Some of the best care on the planet.

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at the state level it is one thing to have legislation requiring the purchase of insurance. this is not a power delegated to the federal government under the Constitution. i think therein lies a huge difference. if the U.S. Congress can mandate you buy this product…it can mandate you must, or must not buy another product.

think about it.

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“irresistible lurch into insolvency”

That is what you cons want .

You can admit it because we already know.

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“And just to make it extremely clear, my claiming it is the Gold Standard is meaningless.”

And that is the point…

You’re the man, Amvet.

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“That is what you cons want.”

You acumen is exceeded only by the originality of your moniker, getalife. Of course that is what we want! Then we could actually USE our guns once anarchy ensued. You have us pegged, dude. Please…say no more.

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Thanks Taxpayer…. funny how the rapid “free market” supporters don’t understand some of its components.

You see, medical providers can go out of business for making bad decisions, and then the machines will be sold for pennies on the dollar to those who make good decisions

Not always…. if they are leased, they may return to the lessor who may lease them, they may not be maintained, or the good decision makers may determine that they don’t need extra equipment or a few other possibilities. See we live in this world where there are a lot of other complicating factors.

Not so for government. Spending goes up each year on a baseline budget, and no force in the universe can stop this irresistable lurch into insolvency

Wild statements without fact, evidence or truth are just wild statements

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http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s320×320/317293_10150785212905394_145914455393_20588083_2060504822_n.jpg

someone commented this pic caused Romney to pull out

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Jay,

I guess you ARE pretending that chart didn’t exist.

Wow, when I’m right about you I sure am dead on!

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Well, as I have said before. Among 45 industrialized nations only one does not have bona fide national health care. Guess who that is?

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getalife,

The definition of credibility from you.

Wow.

“Underwhelming” and “unimpressive” doesn’t begin to describe your mental effort.

But “seven years of college down the drain” is a little closer.

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Midori,

Isn’t this a family site? I mean I am just shocked. You know, the nudity and all.

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buck,

I liked you better when you are gon.

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That is hilarious Midori

I think his wife prods him too much.

She said he would be prepared next time but the man can’t debate.

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Thulsa,

Our medical expertise is top notch, our health care is not. Catch my drift?

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My advice to all of you – stay healthy. Medication is off the charts, half the time you are probably better off without it. Nice column today, where less was more…

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Hmmm. I thought a gaffer worked in the movie biz.

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Buck@gon,
you are waisting your keystrokes with Getalife……He would have been first in line at the Rev James Jones coolade drinking party!

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oldguy,

British national health care at its best. Oh, and one other thing. The British NHS I believe is the world’s 3rd or 4th largest employer. And to think the Dems don’t think there will be a boated bureaucracy. I took the liberty of just picking up the headlines from your link.

Up to 1,200 patients died unnecessarily because of appalling care
Labour’s obsession with targets and box ticking blamed for scandal
Patients were ‘routinely neglected’ at hospital
Report calls for FOURTH investigation into scandal
Not a single official has been disciplined over the worst-ever NHS hospital scandal, it emerged last night.
Up to 1,200 people lost their lives needlessly because Mid-Staffordshire NHS Trust put government targets and cost-cutting ahead of patient care.
But none of the doctors, nurses and managers who failed them has suffered any formal sanction.

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bman,

I’m all ears, but the letters H M O keep coming up.

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Hi Midori

Mine cost that much too.

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oldguy,

Sweet tea for me.

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“But “seven years of college down the drain” is a little closer.”

Well…not entirely. There is the Associates Degree that was earned.

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Jack,

I was tempted to say that you don’t know jack, but I won’t, because you certainly do know your hyperbole.

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Thulsa,
You might also want to reference the fact that over 1/2 the Drs in the British national health care system are foreign trained, i.e. not a product of the British educational system.
p.s. The three terrorists that tried to ram an automobile full of gas cans into the Scottish airport terminal a few years ago were all National Health Care Doctors from Pakistan!

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eyes,

Double ouch.

I spent some time in the hospital and now the costs.

The care is great but the costs are not.

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Thulsa,

I don’t have time to get the details on how it works in Japan, because I’m going to check out for the evening soon. But, I will talk to my wife about them – she is the real deal from Japan. BTW, there was a special on some network a year or two ago that featured medicine in Thailand. Apparently, Americans have been flying there for treatment (usually surgery) at hospitals that look more like posh hotels to me. The expertise AND care is superb and the cost is reasonable even with the price of a round-trip ticket.

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bman,

No doubt.

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Hey Get,
my Dr won’t let me have sweet tea! (too much sugar!) Diabetes you know.

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If you weren’t a vet, I would have called you a puerile idiot. Thanks for your service, anyway.

Save your faux gratitude. It does not impress me.

Get your sorry ass down to a VA and volunteer to help some of those guys. In other words, actually DO something other than wag your tongue to show your supposed gratitude.

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Whoops

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBkTUzKAiXQ

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Headline: “Mike Mullen to Martin Dempsey: a generational shift at JCS”

“Adm. Mike Mullen and the man who replaces him Friday as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff are just five years apart in age but their experiences are different in ways that represent a dramatic shift at the top of the nation’s armed forces.

Mullen, 64, the last of six chairmen whose careers were first defined in combat in southeast Asia, spent time as a young ensign off the coast of Vietnam on the destroyer USS Collett in 1968, firing 5-inch guns with such intensity that the barrels melted from the heat.

Army Gen. Martin Dempsey, 59, his successor, graduated from West Point in 1974, joining a force that was deeply scarred from having just lost the Vietnam war. He didn’t see his first combat until becoming a division commander in Iraq in 2003.”

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0911/64785.html#ixzz1ZOdZjqpG

A couple of points:

1) Working in the hardened combat center on a naval ship that is firing five inch guns with an effective range of 13 nautical miles is not “combat”. It’s “firing at the enemy”.

2) “Seeing combat” as a division commander is not “combat”.

Bottom line ………. we need military personnel in the JCS who have “seen the elephant”.

http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,Galloway_062304,00.html

Just sayin ………….

O.K. …………. take your shots.

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Strawman,
They are already here …. look at the yellow pages for physicians in you area!

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“Now that would be one efficient govt death panel.”

Yeah…and just think… they would likely render a “decision” before their 90 day probationary period was up, so you wouldn’t have to pay any real benefits for their “service.” They would be eager to come here and “work” so it’s probably a win-win all the way around.

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“They are already here …. look at the yellow pages for physicians in you area!”

Yeah…but presently I don’t HAVE to use them. And I generally want to carry on an intelligible conversation with any physician in English.

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Sorry to hear that old guy.

No tea party for you.

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Get,
Love that Splenda though!

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Dang old guy.

I have three doctors.

I bet you take alot of meds.

Do you have nerve pain from diabetes?

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Well, guys…looks like things have died down here. I took a tact today I don’t naturally enjoy, but I tried to give some a dose of their own medicine. Hopefully, in the end, it will make for a better dialog since liberals are not all wrong and neither are conservatives. There’s a reasonable middle ground somewhere in there, but it can’t be had without mutual respect. It’s okay for sparks to fly some, but when you get into attacking the person, no debate can ensue. Probably the whole modus operandi needs to change on this blog. The only two people on the left who have made me think more deeply about my own positions are Jay and Brosephus, and that’s because they will engage in a sustained and serious dialog without resorting to smearing the other person.

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1811/0311

September 29th, 2011
9:59 pm
Headline: “Mike Mullen to Martin Dempsey: a generational shift at JCS”

Scout, when are you ever going to wake up and smell the coffee? The days of Patton, Pulley, and Blackjack pershing are over…Get it? Let it go, the world is passing you by…and here you are debasing Admiral Mullen’s naval career because he was an officer, and you had to shine his shoes.

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straw,

Good luck on changing this blog.

Too funny.

What was your other name?

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Doom, no question.

There are three groups I fiercely advocate for.

Children.

Veterans.

The unheard and disregarded poor.

And I have intensely personal and powerful reasons for standing up for the VA when ideologues with absolutely no relevant experiences try to besmirch the great people therein. The people who saved my life.

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I think Mullen served well in a tough job.

Hope the new guy does not have flashbacks from Vietnam like scout.

scout did not support our victory in Libya so he does not speak for our military.

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AmVet,

Ok then, we’re all proud of you for your service and your fierce fierce fierce advocacy.

Tell the Democrats to pass a budget someday, OK?

That way there might actually be some money for all those fiercely defended helpless people who have no one besides you and 1 million bureaucrats looking out for them.

If this happens we won’t end up like Greece whose fierce fierce fierce warriors threw bricks fiercely defending their glorified government pensions and charity work for fiercely defended poor people that were also bankrupting the country.

–and you said that I had monied masters!!!

LoL

You have far more than I evidently, and your self-importance is getting the better of you too.

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out of the blue:

Ah ……………………….. it was “Puller” not Pulley. Five Navy Crosses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesty_Puller

And the “David Hackworth’s” are still out there …………… it’s just that the true warriors aren’t very often politically correct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hackworth

Distinguished Service Cross
Ten Silver Stars ……………………… TEN !
Three Legions of Merit
Distinguished Flying Cross
Eight Bronze Stars …………………. EIGHT !
Eight Purple Hearts ……………….. EIGHT !

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“You speak for NO ONE here but your own sorry self.

My aren’t we sanctimonious? Don’t try that crap on me, chump. You are not the only one with military service. I guess you feel it gives you the right dump on people. Save it or stuff it.

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“So much for changing the blog huh straw.”

I’m going to dish out this kind of crap until people get a feel for what it’s like to be on the receiving end of it. I mean, really, what the hang? You don’t like someone’s views so you rudely demean them by pretending to be superior by virtue of military service. That’s what a bully does.

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Oh sure. It’s the Republicans that have wanted Universal Health Care all along. LOL!!!

How pathetic. How completely pathetic.

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This isn’t about policy or politics. It’s about a man. For some strange reason, Republicans can’t stand that Obama sits in the Oval Office. Obama could agree with every policy that Republicans embrace and he could propose ideas that have long since been Republican ideas. The individual mandate is a perfect example. But, because it’s Barack Obama, Republicans will always disagree. Like I said, this hatred that Republicans and Tea Party members show for Obama is not about politics or policy, it’s something much deeper and much more personal than that. It’s about the man. It’s about Barack Obama. They hate the man himself. I wonder why they hate him so much. They didn’t hate Clinton like that. Gee, I wonder, what could it be?

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SANAA, Yemen — Yemen’s Defense Ministry said Friday that the U.S.-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki has been killed.

Yemeni security and tribal officials said an airstrike thought to have been carried out by U.S. aircraft on Friday targeted a convoy of cars traveling in the eastern province of Marib but could not say whether al-Awlaki was in the convoy.

http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/yemen-says-al-qaida-1191352.html

When you’re out and about today, watch out for those overhead predators. Those things can be mean!!!

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laughing

“Romney is not a serious candidate. You have to be a Christian to win the GOP nomination.”

Like Obama, Clinton, Carter, Johnson and Kennedy claimed to be.

Keep laughing.

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R. Danneskjold — “Laws compelling anything are not “conservative” – rather such laws are the mark of an elitist, an overlord, one who believe he knows better how others should live. That would not prevent a shamelss leftist elitist from asserting otherwise, to try to borrow the inherent legitimacy of conservatism.”

Huh. So was it not conservative when Kennesaw’s city leaders made it a MANDATE for all households to possess and maintain a firearm and ammunition?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennesaw,_GA#Gun_law

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