Romney: ‘Individual mandate seen as conservative idea’
Mitt Romney on the individual mandate, a core concept in both RomneyCare and ObamaCare:
“The idea for the health care plan was not mine alone. The Heritage Foundation, a great conservative think tank, helped on that. I’m told that Newt Gingrich was one of the very first people to come up with idea of the individual mandate — did that years and years ago. It was conceived — it was seen as a conservative idea to say, you know what, people have a responsibility to care for themselves if they can.”
All of which is true, of course. Every last word of it.
It was a conservative idea, right up until the time that Barack Obama decided to incorporate it into his own health-care plan, at which point it became the greatest horror ever imposed upon a free people by a Marxist Kenyan usurper. And the shamelessness of that ideological flip still astounds.
– Jay Bookman
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299 comments Add your comment
JTesla
September 29th, 2011
7:16 pm
As a libertarian I don’t care who came up with the individual mandate, I just know that I don’t like it.
Aquagirl
September 29th, 2011
7:16 pm
Thanks. You answered the question better than you know: you are a sociopath.
Wow, Straw, you wasted pixels on that “response?”
Y’know, trolls are a pretty standard feature of blogs. I find them amusing, if they aren’t a WOW like compulsive, or the sad cases who seem to be victims of mental illness. But a dull, boring, unoriginal, not-even-a-partially-logical-response troll? Zzzzzz.
I can handle disagreement, but c’mon, ya gotta bring something else. Even folks like Pea and Thulsa demonstrate an actual personality, whether it’s youtube video of the War Eagle crashing, or an entertaining 2 am screed fueled by Jack Daniels. Or Dusty, who is probably sobbing quietly into her pillow after the Braves’ utter collapse.
Declare yourself the winner here Straw, I really have to forfeit due to extreme disinterest. Celebrate your victory due to sheer dullness, as I am totally outmatched by you in that category.
Next!
JohnnyReb
September 29th, 2011
7:17 pm
It continually amazes me there are posters here who believe Republicans would send the country down the toilet just to defeat Obama. Grab the dunce hat and stool; 30 minutes in the corner.
The stand-off is over ideology – how things are done – not THE person doing it. If Obama was doing the right thing for the country, we would all be holding hands and singing.
kayaker 71
September 29th, 2011
7:17 pm
No matter who invented this insane provision to the health care bill, it is wrong for the government to mandate that American citizens buy anything, health care insurance included. When the SC reviews this ridiculous bill and reverses the whole thing, we can all breath a sigh of relief.
TaxPayer
September 29th, 2011
7:18 pm
Oh, and his cosponsor was that paragon of wisdom and ethics, the great Sen. Chip Rogers.
Wow, Jay! Your keyboard didn’t burst out in flames when you typed that?
TaxPayer
September 29th, 2011
7:19 pm
Actually, I think that posting a bond in order to exempt oneself from the mandate was a good idea. Don’t people post bonds for all sorts of stuff already.
Jay
September 29th, 2011
7:19 pm
No, Tax, but my tongue did cleave in two.
Thulsa Doom
September 29th, 2011
7:20 pm
Aquagirl,
I will have you know that my 2 am screed was fueled by vodka! Not Jack Daniels.
Thulsa Doom
September 29th, 2011
7:25 pm
My solution is simple. If you don’t want an individual mandate then fine. But if you choose to go without health insurance and you get sick then here’s what you owe. We treat you but then the govt fines you the cost of what a policy would have cost you for every month that you went without health insurance when you should have had it plus a ten or twenty percent penalty to add some bite to it. We are a humanitarian nation, we all believe in treating each other, but if you choose to go without insurance when you can at least afford a catastrophic policy then you should pay in arrears for the insurance you should have had plus a penalty. Now I’ll kick back and watch all hell break loose.
Aquagirl
September 29th, 2011
7:25 pm
my 2 am screed was fueled by vodka! Not Jack Daniels.
Thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster it wasn’t fueled by tequila. Now THAT might have resulted in permanent exile.
Thulsa Doom
September 29th, 2011
7:26 pm
Taxpayer,
If you want to drive on Georgia roadways without purchasing car insurance you can do so legally. But you have to put up a surety bond of 100k I believe it is.
Jay
September 29th, 2011
7:27 pm
I don’t do tequila no more.
Thulsa Doom
September 29th, 2011
7:30 pm
Aquagirl,
No tequila. I had 18 shots of tequila one night years ago- or at least that’s how many they claim I had on my bill, hit on the hot bartender openly in front of her boyfriend, and had the cops rolling up to the bar as my friends pushed me into the backseat and got us the hell outta there. 30 seconds more and I woulda been in jail. That was the last time I drank tequila hard although I do occassionally sip a fine tequila like patron which is a whole level different from cheap a$$ jose cuervo.
Kamchak
September 29th, 2011
7:31 pm
Out of curiosity, buddy, do you even know what sic means?
Yep.
Did you mean to type, “…not extend your tongue out of you mouth…” instead of “your mouth
Tom Middleton
September 29th, 2011
7:32 pm
Thulsa Doom
There’s more to campaign mode than getting financial support, Doom. As usual, you missed the gist of the post. And besides, why would a Republican president need to start so early with the Koch Brothers and others like them on his side. Now try addressing my real post…if you can!
kayaker 71
September 29th, 2011
7:33 pm
Some of those pesky statistics again…..
Jan, 2009…. Bozo said on the steps of the Capital…. ” We will wield technology’s wonders to raise health care’s quality and lower health care costs”.
Since then, individual premiums have increased about 8% and family premiums, about 9%. All in all, health care premiums have increased an overall total of more than 20%. The average individual for single premiums pays $432/mo or $5429/yr. The average family premium is at 1256/mo or 15,073/yr. And it’s not even 2014 yet when this insane piece of legislation kicks in for real. Health care premiums have increased 113% since 2001. The kicker is that the SCOTS will probably review this whole mess in mid campaign next summer and it they reverse Bozo’s center piece of legislation, he is more toast than now, if than can possibly be. No wonder he is so pissed.
Kamchak
September 29th, 2011
7:35 pm
Oops, hit submit too soon
Did you mean to type, “…not extend your tongue out of you mouth…” instead of “your mouth”?
If so, then sorry, my bad.
Thulsa Doom
September 29th, 2011
7:38 pm
for if they could, they would have been helping our president help the people these last three years, instead of trying to destroy him with everything they’ve got. – Tom Middleton
Tom,
Nope. I did not miss the gist of your post. I recognize it as the utter nonsense that it was. For example look at your statement above. The first 2 years Obama had both houses of Congress including a near filibuster proof 59 Dems in the senate. And yet you blame the Congressional Republicans for the first 2 years when Obama had both houses of Congress? And yet you somehow blame the Repubs for 3 years when they didn’t even have either house of Congress for 2 years and in this 3rd year only have 1 house? Surely you jest?
Willful Ignoramus
September 29th, 2011
7:39 pm
“We currently have over one thousand five hundred different insurance plans in this country, each with their own marketing, paperwork, enrollment, premiums, rules, and regulations. Our clusterf&ck of an insurance system is *extremely> complex, fragmented and inefficient.”
We used to have one postal service that…oh yeah, was run by the government. How did the work out over the years? I hear it worked so well that no company has ever arisen to offer competitive services.
“We currently rank 37th in the world on healthcare”
Yes, by all objective measures. We should never consider the sources of our information…just trust that it is factual, correct and presented solely in the interests of spreading the truth. Amen, brother!
“Our per capital costs for healthcare are 42% higher than in Switzerland.”
This is a problem
“14.9% of our GDP is spent on health care and the cost is growing rapidly. Japan spends 7.6% of its GDP, Australia 8.5%, Holland 8.6% and Canada 9.5%. By 2013, per capita health care spending in the U.S. is projected to increase to 18.4 percent of GDP.”
This, too, is a problem.
Physicians in the U.S. face massive bureaucratic costs. The average office-based American doctor employs 1.5 clerical and managerial staff, spends 44% of gross income on overhead, and devotes 134 hours of his/her own time annually to billing. Canadian physicians employ 0.7 clerical/administrative staff, spend 34% of their gross income for overhead, and trivial amounts of time on billing (there’s a single half page form for all patients, or a simple electronic system).
This is a problem.
“Typical government estimates put the figure for billing fraud and abuse at 10 percent of annual spending, amounting to over $150 billion annually.”
Good point. I can rest assured that the government will be defrauded because, trusting soul that I am, I know there is no prior history of that. What’s that hun? What? It paid out 600 million to dead people recently??? No…I REFUSE to believe that…you are just being a stupid, obstinate person making up things because you have this ungrounded and superstitious and irrational distrust of the government!!! You are going to divorce me? Go ahead.
“And finally two letters for the Uncle sam haters – VA.”
Ah…the coup de grace. I am slain by the dent of this argument, felled by two solitary letters! Has there ever been a stronger compulsion to believe something in all of history than this?? Wait…I have made use of the VA a number of times…I DON”T have to blithely believe one person’s assessment of it.
It doesn’t have to be the VA or the highway! There doesn’t have to be THIS solution of NONE AT ALL. There’s a problem. But fascist liberals want to FORCE me to accept THEIR solution. That is creepy and Orwellian.
“Everybody in, nobody out. Single Payer Now!”
Oh oh. Is this why they want to take away our guns? So we’ll be easier to control?
TaxPayer
September 29th, 2011
7:43 pm
Health care premiums have increased 113% since 2001.
Darn that Obama! How could he do that to us! Oops. Wait. What’s that. It’s up that much since Bush II started his campaign to destroy the US. Well. I misunderestimated him. Darn that Bush! How could he do that to us!
Thulsa Doom
September 29th, 2011
7:43 pm
kayaker,
Premiums are rising primarily due to anticipation of the new health care law and the new mandates included in it. Interestingly these new mandates do not get much mention as being a factor in the ever rising cost of health insurance.
oldguy
September 29th, 2011
7:45 pm
hey amvet,
Love your stats….hate your conclusions! My daughter (and her Canadian Husband) live in Vancouver, the canadian health care system is so bad that she comes here for any medical treatment she needs ! Her in-laws, who live in Toronto pay for American health care insurance and go to Buffalo, N.Y when they need medical care. Conclusion…..they are all covered in Canada but the quality of the service is so bad that they come here to be treated.
Jay
September 29th, 2011
7:50 pm
“Interestingly these new mandates do not get much mention as being a factor in the ever rising cost of health insurance.”
Interestingly, that would be because they AREN’T much of a factor in the ever-rising cost of health insurance. As kayaker so kindly pointed out, those costs have been rising for a long long time. So how could that be?
Oh wait. I know: Let ME answer teacher!!! Let ME!
Insurance premiums have been rising since 2001 and earlier because even back then, people ANTICIPATED the election of a black man named Barack Obama as president and also anticipated that he would shove something called ObamaCare down the throats of the American people.
Did I get it right Teacher? I knew I would.
Want an apple?
kayaker 71
September 29th, 2011
7:51 pm
Doom,
It doesn’t really matter. When the SC reverses this idiotic bill, we can get back to figuring out how to solve this health care mess without mandates. Over 15% of our GDP is spent on health care now. But Bozocare is not the answer and the American people know it. Bozo will go down in flames because of this silly piece of legislation. Both Rubio and Christie have said that they will not run for the presidency because of a lack of experience. I only wish our Messiah in the WH had followed their lead. We would have been about 3T ahead of the game by now.
buck@gon
September 29th, 2011
7:52 pm
Jay,
I suppose then that the so-called Bush tax rates are now a liberal idea, since they are now voted into reality by Democrats.
sayanythingblog.com/entry/obama-flashback-you-dont-raise-taxes-in-a-recession
Tax cuts were a tool too of JFK, and Democrats to incentivize growth when growth was needed–which is all true, of course. Perhaps, because Obama is now touting big tax hikes (against the will of even the liberal Congress, by the way), we should be astounded at the shamlessness of the flip.
Why don’t you tell us, Mr. highly paid, accutely aware columnist?
REQUIRED READING for the day
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/278633/postmodern-class-warfare-victor-davis-hanson
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/278526/obama-s-racial-crisis-victor-davis-hanson
Keep Up the Good Fight!
September 29th, 2011
7:53 pm
Health care premiums have increased 113% since 2001.
Premiums are rising primarily due to anticipation of the new health care law and the new mandates included in it. Interestingly these new mandates do not get much mention as being a factor in the ever rising cost of health insurance.
Wow, the free market is great. It could predict the new health care law years before Obama even campaigned to be president. I am certain those accountants at Great Beneficial Life & Health would never blame their greed for higher premiums on new healthcare laws as a convenient excuse. Surely they must be telling the truth.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
September 29th, 2011
7:54 pm
Dang it Jay…. you read my answer as I was typing it, changed it some and then made sure yours posted with a prior timestamp….
The benefits of being the High Priest of the Blog I guess.
Kamchak
September 29th, 2011
7:56 pm
The National Review is required reading?
Can’t I just burn my eyes out with a red-hot poker instead?
AmVet - Read my lips. No new Texans!
September 29th, 2011
7:57 pm
Ignoramus. Good job. No great job.
The only guy on the planet who seems to advocate for 1,500 different postal services in this country.
Sadly not the only guy on the planet who takes issue with our ranking of 37th in the world. I presume because he provided absolutely nothing substantive to countermand it, he infers we are actually 36th?
Sometimes I feel like Clarence Darrow – “I made up my mind to show the country what an ignoramus he was, and I succeeded.”
oldguy, then don’t move to Canada.
We irrefutably have an utterly broken and deadly system and where are your beloved GOP’s “solutions” to this debacle?
They went batshiite crazy in 1993 and again in 2010.
And in the interim did exactly nothing for we the people.
If not so tragic, it would be humorous…
oldguy
September 29th, 2011
7:57 pm
You want gov run anything?? try the VA Tricare system. Almost all the people who worked for me before I retired were either military or ex-military. They had endless stories of inadequate treatment and lack of availability of medicine/services. 50-100 mile drives to see a specialist unavailability of critical drugs for treatment. Endless horror stories. And you want that for all of us?
Even Hollywood knows the story…go rent the movie “Coming Home” if you want to see what they think of the VA system!
Thulsa Doom
September 29th, 2011
7:58 pm
oldguy,
I’m in the medicare business as several people on here well know. I attended a seminar by a Medicare consultant. When the conversation got to nationalized health care he had one thing to say. His biggest client was an oncologist in Buffalo who regularly treated many Canadians who came across the border to get timely care for cancer detection and treatment because it takes so long in Canada. That was all he needed to know.
Some other things to consider. Google the number of MRI machines in Canada and you will see that there are few MRI machines per 100,000 people compared to the U.S. Health care is more expensive here but its not rationed as it is in Canada.
Also there are comparisons on health care to folks such as the Swiss and Japan. Well. Switzerland, Japan, and several of those European countries are small and largely homogenous with smaller minority populations than the U.S. This is not to blame minorities by any means but in the U.S. its a well known fact that diabetes, hypertension, etc. are more endemic in Hispanic and especially black citiizens. Also those countries aren’t as fat and fast food addicted as we are. There are other factors at play.
As for being 37th in the world in health care that is an entirely misleading publication and full of holes.
As for physicians, red tape, and the cost of clerical and overhead anyone who thinks that the federal govt could administer these costs in a cheaper and more efficient manner needs their head examined. I have several Medicare kiosks one of which is at a local Walmart. Walmart vision centers quit accepting Medicare because of the problems with billing and the red tape of dealing with medicare. Ask a vision center manager at Walmart who had to deal with medicare what its like to deal with Medicare and they will relate some nightmares.
Strawman
September 29th, 2011
7:58 pm
“Y’know, trolls are a pretty standard feature of blogs.”
I will defer to your expertise there. You seem to have a great familiarity with them.
“I can handle disagreement, but c’mon, ya gotta bring something else.”
I have (and you can’t). But then you wanted to mock. So mockery is what you got (the something else you where desiring). I suspect the reason you are any of your comrades here do that is, well, because, you can’t really sustain a serious, reasoned debate on any substantive matter. Bro can and Jay can. But not you. You are a intellectual lightweight and hide behind the cover of your like-minded liberatrons.
“Declare yourself the winner here Straw, I really have to forfeit due to extreme disinterest. Celebrate your victory due to sheer dullness, as I am totally outmatched by you in that category.”
So you are tapping out, then. You can’t even sustain a diatribe much less a serious argument. Well. go don your costume and save the world from IDIOTIC CONSERVATIVES. Go, AquaGirl!
Tom Middleton
September 29th, 2011
7:59 pm
Thulsa Doom
Nope, you missed again, Doom. From the time Rush Limbaugh issued his “I hope he fails” decree, you party has been VERY non-cooperative, trying, in fact, to stop this president from righting all the trouble your party caused any way they can.
Arguing and shading all you want will not change the facts. Your whole party wants this president to fail, and has for all three years – period. I know it, the American people know it, so why you can’t get it?
Doom, I was certain thought you were smarter than this.
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
September 29th, 2011
8:01 pm
Oh, and his cosponsor was that paragon of wisdom and ethics, the great Sen. Chip Rogers.
Well, I won’t take that laying down. If it wasn’t for Chip Rogers I could walk out of my trailer tomorrow morning and be grabbed by a bunch of thugs and have a chip planted in my head. Now those thugs tremble at the thought it’s against GA law.
And I’m wondering if Sister Dusty got banned. I ain’t seen any posts from her for awhile. Surely the Good Lord couldn’t be that merciful. Or maybe she just went on a binge on that cheap wine she guzzles after the Braves sucked bad enough to draw a softball thru a garden hose.
Anyhow, carry on. Fox News is in the middle of a commercial or I wouldn’t be wasting my time on here. Some of us like to keep informed, you know.
Strawman
September 29th, 2011
8:04 pm
“Did you mean to type, “…not extend your tongue out of you mouth…” instead of “your mouth”
Yeah…it’s called a typographical error (or typo for short). But I appreciate the use of sic…that was not incorrect or appropriate. Good catch.
Midori
September 29th, 2011
8:06 pm
This one’s for you, Kammy
http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s320×320/296508_2149662553874_1615650105_2131814_6106698_n.jpg
buck@gon
September 29th, 2011
8:06 pm
Jay @ 7:50,
They’ve been rising because the largest payors of medical care in this country are federal government programs that have been getting bigger and bigger enrollments with people who are living longer and longer and requiring more expensive car. The government does not pay the entire cost, yet mandates that providers who receive any payments from these programs (and some providers like Emergency rooms have no choice) also provide service at whatever price the government will pay.
Essentially, the government has been stealing service for its clients and then requiring the providers to stick it to private individuals and insurance companies to pay the difference. See chart below:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/07/does_medicare_pay_below_cost_w.html
Ignore that if you want, but don’t pretend (yet again) that I didn’t say anything when you respond, should you care to do so.
Thulsa Doom
September 29th, 2011
8:07 pm
VA?
I deal with a number of vets, a lot of them in Medicare and I hear both sides of the VA. About half my guys are healthy and pleased with the VA because they go to the outpatient clinics and generally they feel very good aobut their care.
Then there is the other half. Its not unusual for them to get very critical drugs late or not at all because of shortages. I’ve personally witnessed this first hand and that is not cool.
At the main hospital at Clairmont I’ve heard horror stories of fights due to anger over 3 hour wait times, double booking of appts, having a different doctor every 6 months, and where my dad lives in Montgomery vets there are terrified of the local VA hospital.
But the VA has come a long way and is a lot better than it used to be in the 70s and 80s. Most of the vets on here Joe mama, Amvet, etc are pretty well satisfied with their care.
TaxPayer
September 29th, 2011
8:08 pm
Obviously other countries are providing comparable or at least adequate healthcare as compared to ours but are doing it for their entire populations for less, much less. Otherwise, I’m sure we would be hearing about thousands and thousands of examples of people in these countries suffering from a lack of healthcare instead of the handful of examples that some people struggle to compile and present for our viewing pleasure, amongst other things. In fact, given all the people that some claim come here to the US in order to escape the horrors of their own local healthcare systems, shouldn’t there be massive sections of youtube and Facebook devoted to these cases. Stories published in National Geographic and Time magazines. Front page coverage on the AJC and Wahington Post, etc. Where’s the beef, people.
Kamchak
September 29th, 2011
8:10 pm
Thanks Midori, and Hiya!
oldguy
September 29th, 2011
8:10 pm
I certainly won’t!! I get great medical care here and I would expect the many thousands of perple who come to the US for their medical care think its good also.
p.s. where is more than HALF of all medical research done?
Thulsa Doom
September 29th, 2011
8:10 pm
Tom Middleton,
I hear ya. Its all Rush Limbaugh’s fault who only has an audience of something like 1 million a day in a country of 300 million.That makes a lot of sense huh. I’ve yet to see a rational explanation from you as to what the repubs had to do with this when the dems controlled both houses of congress for Obama’s first 2 years. That point alone makes your point invalid.
Strawman
September 29th, 2011
8:12 pm
“I deal with a number of vets, a lot of them in Medicare and I hear both sides of the VA. About half my guys are healthy and pleased with the VA because they go to the outpatient clinics and generally they feel very good aobut their care.
Then there is the other half. Its not unusual for them to get very critical drugs late or not at all because of shortages. I’ve personally witnessed this first hand and that is not cool. ”
Don’t suggest there might be anything wrong with the grand plan envisioned by AV (wow..that is the mirror image of VA…creepy)…he doesn’t want to hear it (or even go back to the bargaining table to arrive at a solution most people can support). It’s VA or the highway!
kayaker 71
September 29th, 2011
8:13 pm
Bozo will regret his gaff with Chief Justice Roberts at the SOTU address where he criticized them for their lack of judgement. Even the liberals on the court will remember. It is unprecedented for a president to do this to an equal in our tri-partite system. Most have quit coming to Congressional addresses because of it. The SC, in their wisdom, is not ignorant of the will of the people. They pay attention to pols, most of the time, and are not, for the most part, a branch of the government who ignores what the people desire. They will review this bill in the middle of the 2012 campaign. This is critical to any hope of Bozo’s re-election efforts. As Axelrod says, “we have a Titanic struggle” for re-election in 2012. This will not help it much either.
AmVet - Read my lips. No new Texans!
September 29th, 2011
8:13 pm
oldguy, your stories are interesting.
Just relatively useless compared to empirical data..
VA System a Model for Health Care, Experts Say
http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/content/95/21/1570.2.full
The VA Advantage: The Gold Standard in Clinical Informatics
How does a healthcare organization undergo such transformation as described in the lead paper in eight short years? Just imagine being part of an organization that achieved the following transformations:
reduction in hospital and long-term-care beds from 92,000 to 53,000 and an increase in outpatient clinics from 200 to 850
a 75% increase in the number of patients treated on an annual basis (from 2.8 million to 4.9 million) with only a 32% cumulative increase in budget (from $19 billion to $25 billion)
clinicians who have access to complete medical records for almost all patient visits and all care settings
clinicians who willingly enter medication orders 94% of the time
patients who are increasingly satisfied with their care, ranking the service consistently higher than the competition
improved patient outcomes, achieved at costs 25% less than the competition
Such transformation is impossible to achieve without vision, leadership, talent, teamwork and tools. I will restrict my comments to a discussion of the tools, specifically the VA’s clinical information system (VistA, HealtheVet, My HealtheVet. However, it is important to note that the results described in this paper would not be possible without the VA’s transformational leadership and dedicated teams of professionals capable of executing the vision.
http://www.longwoods.com/content/17383
You may hate it but the VA rocks.
They blow completely out of the water everything I’ve ever encountered in the “free market” (HA!)
TaxPayer
September 29th, 2011
8:17 pm
Now kayaker has gone so far over the edge he’s calling Obama “Bozo” and “Messiah” in one post. Do you make sacrificial offerings to Ronald McDonald. A Wendy’s burger perhaps or Chick-Fil-A placed on an offering tray once a week to appease the Lord of the Fries.
moonbat betty
September 29th, 2011
8:20 pm
Again, thank you Bookman for providing a forum for the liberals to demonstrate their love for mankind and for all Americans on the blogosphere.
such warm fuzzies from your supporters.. ha ha
Umm, on the VA, Amvet, it most definitely depends on your situation…
Jay
September 29th, 2011
8:20 pm
Actually, Buck, I give you credit. This time, your post actually DOES have content. Of course, the content is wrong, but we can work on that. It’s important to acknowledge progress.
You claim, for example:
Essentially, the government has been stealing service for its clients and then requiring the providers to stick it to private individuals and insurance companies to pay the difference.
And yet the link that you yourself provided says something different. It says “Hospitals and doctors are not forced to accept Medicare’s rates by Medicare.” It says that for efficient hospitals, Medicare reimburses ABOVE cost, which is exactly what you’d want it to do. Efficient hospitals can make a profit, inefficient hospitals are encouraged to improve. And as the author of that piece notes, “the vast majority of hospitals continue to accept Medicare patients.” Why would they do that if they lost money on every patient? Make it up with volume?
I quote (again from Buck’s link;)
Indeed, what MedPAC found was that hospitals under “financial pressure” — hospitals that made less money, in other words — managed to control their “cost” better. Medicare’s payments sufficed for them. And their quality outcomes weren’t any worse.
buck@gon
September 29th, 2011
8:21 pm
Kam,
The National Review is better than a poker, because unlike the ajc, it actually enlightens as it pursuades. The ajc just ticks off what it considers its inertial, jingoistic, hootenanny, redneck, birther, racist countrymen (and country) that it loathes.
Anyway, would be VERY interested in the liberal perspective on what Hanson wrote.
TaxPayer
September 29th, 2011
8:22 pm
where is more than HALF of all medical research done?
If you’re talking drug tests, I would suspect Africa. Regulations are more lax there regarding test subjects. Then, if it is organ removal, I’d have to say India since they seem to be more into the sale of organs as a means of paying one’s way if you are not fortunate enough to have a good paying job, for example.
AmVet - Read my lips. No new Texans!
September 29th, 2011
8:22 pm
Well, I know about a health care system that has been highly successful in containing costs, yet provides excellent care. And the story of this system’s success provides a helpful corrective to anti-government ideology. For the government doesn’t just pay the bills in this system — it runs the hospitals and clinics.
No, I’m not talking about some faraway country. The system in question is our very own Veterans Health Administration, whose success story is one of the best-kept secrets in the American policy debate.
Last year customer satisfaction with the veterans’ health system, as measured by an annual survey conducted by the National Quality Research Center, exceeded that for private health care for the sixth year in a row. This high level of quality (which is also verified by objective measures of performance) was achieved without big budget increases. In fact, the veterans’ system has managed to avoid much of the huge cost surge that has plagued the rest of U.S. medicine.
The secret of its success is the fact that it’s a universal, integrated system. Because it covers all veterans, the system doesn’t need to employ legions of administrative staff to check patients’ coverage and demand payment from their insurance companies. Because it’s integrated, providing all forms of medical care, it has been able to take the lead in electronic record-keeping and other innovations that reduce costs, ensure effective treatment and help prevent medical errors. Moreover, the V.H.A., as Phillip Longman put it in The Washington Monthly, “has nearly a lifetime relationship with its patients.” As a result, it “actually has an incentive to invest in prevention and more effective disease management. When it does so, it isn’t just saving money for somebody else. It’s maximizing its own resources. … In short, it can do what the rest of the health care sector can’t seem to, which is to pursue quality systematically without threatening its own financial viability.”
Oh, and one more thing: the veterans health system bargains hard with medical suppliers, and pays far less for drugs than most private insurers. ~Paul Krugman
http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2006/01/paul_krugman_on_1.html
TaxPayer
September 29th, 2011
8:24 pm
Is moonbat not feeling the love. Have you scoped out Kyle’s place?
Ol' Timer
September 29th, 2011
8:25 pm
“Lord, what fools these mortals be!” — William Shakespeare, Midsummer Night Dream, Scene 3, Act 2.
AmVet - Read my lips. No new Texans!
September 29th, 2011
8:27 pm
No, it does not betty.
My contention that the VA has surpassed the care in the “free market” is clear and abundant. By numerous metrics and various experts.
And the vets, who are the patients, themselves agree. For years on end now.
And not one single apologist here has yet even provided the first scintilla of evidence to countermand that and demonstrate that the opposite is true.
Time to join the rest of the industrialized world.
Single payer.
Everybody in, nobody out.
It’s the American way.
Midori
September 29th, 2011
8:27 pm
Kammy — a friend posted that on Facebook.
I nearly bust a gut laughing when I saw it.
Tom Middleton
September 29th, 2011
8:28 pm
Thulsa DoomNope, you did it yet again, Doom: You missed the whole point of my post. I guess it’s because you’re in permanent campaign mode like everyone else in your party.
Like Limbaugh did, Mitch McConnell, Eric Cantor, and others have called for handing President Obama a one-term presidency, and they followed through with everything they had, including a record use of the filibuster for everything possible! Doom, where were you when all of this was going on?
But meanwhile, and back to my original post, the America people these days are only interested in who’s on their side and who isn’t. And if you’re reading the polls, bud, it ain’t you and your party. That’s all I’m saying. In fact, that’s all I need to say!
Liberal Lemming
September 29th, 2011
8:29 pm
I think the govrment plan fer united medicare is jus fine. Obama, he talks good and them dum conservationists, well, they…they…their jus dum. I dunno why they jus kant trust Uncle Sam. I mean, he’s dun right by me. I ain’t had ta work sense I I got my disabilitee for drinking. Man…that stuff jus had a hole on me. Uncle Sam, he pays all my bills. I like thet. My doctur, tho, he I don think he takes much of a likin ta me. I tole him…look, you gettin paid..wats ur beef, man? Their was a whole bunch of other folks from tha housin projek their wit me. He didnt seem to like them eithur. Them rich folks…they got it all and they shuld be helpin disabiliteed folks like me out. I cant help mysulf. Obama nows that.
Ewww…Judge Judy is on…I gotta go. You shuld see this big scren TV I got now. If I didn’t have that, I wager Id jus go back to drink. See, Sam takes care of y’all.
moonbat betty
September 29th, 2011
8:30 pm
“Is moonbat not feeling the love.”
Oh, well, you’re here, Taxpayer. Now I do!
You and RedNeck are soooo cute together.
Aquagirl
September 29th, 2011
8:30 pm
If the evil socialized VA is good enough for our Sacred Military Heroes, then socialized medicine should be good enough for those tooling around with the standard Republican-approved yellow ribbon on your SUV’s.
Unless, of course, that whole support the troops(tm) thing is only lip service. I’m quite sure there’s some other explanation. Like the dog ate their homework.
buck@gon
September 29th, 2011
8:31 pm
Jay,
Your sin of ommission is the following sentence you must not have seen (again from the site): “They (the “efficient hospitals) made a lot more money from other sources.”
That is hardly different from my “stealing” analogy. If hospitals can get their cash flow from Medicare and their profits from the private sector that seems to be what very many so-called “inefficient” hospitals are doing.
Klein again: Put another way, the question is simple enough: Do you think hospitals are efficient? My read of the evidence is that they are not. “Cost” is too high. I think we need to cut costs. I think that the health-care system needs to spend less money than it currently spends. Another way of saying that is I want the system to begin paying below projected “cost.” That, after all, is how you save money.
My read of the data is that there’s sufficient room to do that without harming quality.
My read of Klein is: who the hell is he to say there is sufficient room? He’s a journalist who has done nothing but graduate college and write. There is absolutely NO basis for him saying that there is room for “cost savings”. Then, what of medicare fraud?
moonbat betty
September 29th, 2011
8:35 pm
“And the vets, who are the patients, themselves agree.”
Sorry, I have heard different stories- positive and negative…
Not saying it sucks. Just that in a lot of circumstances you could get better/prompt care.
out of the blue
September 29th, 2011
8:38 pm
Tom Middleton….Tom, my man you would have to mention Limbaugh, McConnell and that smirking asshat Cantor all in one sentenance just as I finished my dinner. Burp, Anyone have a rolaid? Burp!
Mr_B
September 29th, 2011
8:39 pm
“Google the number of MRI machines in Canada and you will see that there are few MRI machines per 100,000 people compared to the U.S. Health care is more expensive here but its not rationed as it is in Canada.”
Most likely because in the US, you can get away with charging north of a grand for a proceedure that actually costs less than $100 to perform.
TaxPayer
September 29th, 2011
8:39 pm
You and RedNeck are soooo cute together.
Me AND Redneck. Wouldn’t that be redundant. Except for the cute part. I have no idea whether Redneck’s presence would either raise or lower the cuteness level that I have to offer. Here’s me. What do you think. Was the Rogaine too much.
Tom Middleton
September 29th, 2011
8:40 pm
Sorry, blue…lol.
buck@gon
September 29th, 2011
8:41 pm
Jay,
Hit submit by mistake–not finished.
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/10/29/frightful-medicare-scams/
If private hospitals aren’t cleanly “efficient as Klein would like, then their “inefficiencies” are hugely amplified by a system that encourages certain procedures (via larger payments) over other procedures, AND a lengthy auditing, bureaucratic process to ensure that paperwork is properly filled out for disputes, for mispayments that even Klein admits need to change.
Look at the chart in the article! You ARE seeing what I’m seeing that total fees paid by private payers is 130% of cost and total fees paid by government is what, (don’t have it up now) 70%.
Boris Badnov
September 29th, 2011
8:42 pm
There are many exemptions being granted to this wonderful health care program. For instance, if you are Amish, you get a pass. Don’t mind giving up radio, tv, ac, lights, computers, phones, clocks, cars, planes, or indoor plumbing. Don’t mind have to say thee and thou. But those beards really itch. And have to ever seen an Amish bikini? But if this wonderful universal healthcare program is the greatest thing since the clapper, why are there exemptions for anyone? Why are all members of congress exempt. Why are unions goons exempt? You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to understand that the cost of medical care will sky rocket and the quality will nose dive. Bill Clinton felt my pain. Barry is causing my pain.
Jm
September 29th, 2011
8:43 pm
Interesting discussions about the hermanator on the networks
The guy may have some mo, at least for now
buck@gon
September 29th, 2011
8:43 pm
Aquagirl,
From what I hear the good ol’ VA is NOT good enough. Case in point, look at the Walter Reed hospital scandal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Reed_Army_Medical_Center_neglect_scandal
moonbat betty
September 29th, 2011
8:43 pm
Yep. You get your chores done, Taxpayer?
Your honey doo list?
out of the blue
September 29th, 2011
8:44 pm
Betty….Are you a Vet? Ever received treatment there? I didn’t think so! So who are you to say anything factual about the VA? You’re like the guy who says she said that he said Panos and paul’s was an awful restaurant….
getalife
September 29th, 2011
8:45 pm
buck get “enlightened” by the nro.
When have they been right about anything?
TaxPayer
September 29th, 2011
8:47 pm
Interesting discussions about the hermanator on the networks
The guy may have some mo, at least for now
Perry says that Cain offers twice that. Something about a mofo, whatever that is.
AmVet - Read my lips. No new Texans!
September 29th, 2011
8:48 pm
buck, you only hear what you want to hear.
I’m certain you’ll dare not touch any of the considerable data, evidence and facts I’ve provided this evening. Facts that prove the VA is the Gold Standard of American healthcare.
Good move.
Keep cherry picking and avoid the true picture…
TaxPayer
September 29th, 2011
8:49 pm
moonbat,
you didn’t even look at my mug, did ya. I’m crushed.
buck@gon
September 29th, 2011
8:49 pm
AmVet,
Mealy-mouthed, rat-faced, never-having-served Paul Krugman doesn’t convince, sorry. Problem is, I don’t have first-hand or even second hand experience with wounded soldiers. All I know is what people I work with say (third hand) that the VA sucks. Furthermore, if the VA is more efficient than any private hospital, as Krugman might believe, then it goes against the law of government programs, which is “we have to spend all the money that was allocated for our year.”
Sorry, but central planning often fails.
BUT I will say that if Congress and the American people want to have facilities to service anyone, including poor people, those uninsured, whatever, they ought to build and maintain them themselves, so that this “stealing from the inefficient” hospitals and so that the 130% I’m going to have to pay whenever I need surgery end immediately.
Strawman
September 29th, 2011
8:50 pm
“If the evil socialized VA is good enough for our Sacred Military Heroes, then socialized medicine should be good enough for those tooling around with the standard Republican-approved yellow ribbon on your SUV’s.
Unless, of course, that whole support the troops(tm) thing is only lip service. I’m quite sure there’s some other explanation. Like the dog ate their homework.
The one-point wonder strikes again. Come on, girl friend, it’s easy: put one foot in front of the other, step, other foot, step…and so on. You can string some words together, now just do that with thoughts! I’ll tell you what: I will lend you a primer on rhetoric and composition. That’s bound to help.
buck@gon
September 29th, 2011
8:51 pm
AmVet,
I’m curious. Do you think it would be a scandal for roach-infested rooms to exist in the private sector?
Think anyone would pay for care there?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Reed_Army_Medical_Center_neglect_scandal
moonbat betty
September 29th, 2011
8:51 pm
You’re mug?
Where?
Keep Up the Good Fight!
September 29th, 2011
8:53 pm
Why would the number of machines per 100k people be “evidence” of rationing? One does not necessarily follow the other. It may also be evidence of the distribution of the population. MRI machines cost nearly $1.5 million to buy and $135k per year (2007 figures). A diverse population spread over an area of thousands of miles is unlikely to have one in a small town. It takes a larger population to support. Additionally, as our little free market buddies will tell you, evidence of more units in one country over another does not mean that optimal use has been achieved and indeed there may be a glut of machines and underusage in the US.
But the repeated efforts to jump from X to conclusion Y without proving all the elements in between is a nice try effort.
TaxPayer
September 29th, 2011
8:56 pm
You’re mug?
Where?
The link in my 8:39 post.
Jay
September 29th, 2011
8:57 pm
My read of Klein is: who the hell is he to say there is sufficient room? He’s a journalist who has done nothing but graduate college and write. There is absolutely NO basis for him saying that there is room for “cost savings”. Then, what of medicare fraud?
Then Buck, you shouldn’t have cited his column as evidence. Plain and simple.
out of the blue
September 29th, 2011
8:58 pm
buck@gon ….You say this “I don’t have first-hand or even second hand experience with wounded soldiers. All I know is what people I work with say (third hand) that the VA sucks!
And as one who has first-hand experience with the VA, your friends are probably sequestered on the section 8 ward!
buck@gon
September 29th, 2011
8:58 pm
getalife @ 9:45,
Probably much much longer than you’ve been pretending they’re wrong.
Let me rephrase: would be interested in any INTELLIGENT liberal comments on either of Hanson’s pieces.
Let me sum up the one on race and allow you to digest its meaning:
Essentially, giving in to economically stimulating activity with incentives and/or tax cuts and lowering regulations (getting out of the way), would stimulate the economy and help many people out of poverty (because poverty rates and food stamp usage is very high right now). However, what it would also do is point out the folly of liberal policies and the uselessness of racial grievance politics, bearing for all to see, the fundamental flaw with the Democrat party, the idea of central planning and by extension, other secondary “spending” programs like healthcare.
This flaw the Democrats would rather keep hidden than try to seriously solve the economic and debt crises.
buck@gon
September 29th, 2011
9:00 pm
Jay,
So, you’re going to pretend that the chart didn’t exist?
Typical.
I suppose my flaw was citing evidence that I knew before the fact, you will pretend wasn’t there.
Midori
September 29th, 2011
9:00 pm
Tax – you’re simply adorable!!
should someone tell Buck those events at WRAMC was the result of — gasp — PRIVATIZATION?????
which took place under guess who???
AmVet - Read my lips. No new Texans!
September 29th, 2011
9:01 pm
buck, somehow your eagle eyes seem to have missed my posts at 7:11, 7:57 and especially at 8:13.
It’s OK, you can stay completely clueless and ignorant on these matters, regarding the superior care at the VA.
You don’t want it to be true, so for you, it isn’t.
Ain’t no skin off my back.
But your monied masters are just laughing at you…
kayaker 71
September 29th, 2011
9:01 pm
amVet,
I am not so sure that you would call them the “Gold Standard of Medical Care” but they have come a long way in the last 10 yrs or so. I worked as a surgeon in the VA in Gainesville, FL for several years and have first hand information as to quality of care and patient satisfaction. Their electronic record system is second to none. It provides each practitioner with a complete set of data for each patient and reviewing it is a breeze. As far as costs, buying supplies from vendors was very competitive, as each VA was not bound by a central supply system,but free to strike their own deals. Salaries were also pretty competitive with the outside when you consider institutional hires and not private practice. The system also offered the practitioner a choice of locations in which to work and transferring from one VA to another was common place. I will take exception with one comment that you made. We did have an insurance dept that billed private insurance companies for services performed by VA doctors. It was most successful in capturing monies owed for service performed. I found my years at Gainesville very productive, rewarding and fulfilling. The system has a ways to go but it sure beats a lot of the competition.
moonbat betty
September 29th, 2011
9:01 pm
“The link in my 8:39 post.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WFHsDHXIEQ
Drifter
September 29th, 2011
9:02 pm
You’re absolutely right Jay. It was a conservative idea until Obama adopted it. No one in either party seems willing to do what every family in America has to do…live within their means while paying down any debt they might have.
buck@gon
September 29th, 2011
9:05 pm
Additionally, as our little free market buddies will tell you, evidence of more units in one country over another does not mean that optimal use has been achieved and indeed there may be a glut of machines and underusage in the US.
So, your insinuation is that medical decision-makers are wasting money on machines they don’t need?
Maybe.
You see, medical providers can go out of business for making bad decisions, and then the machines will be sold for pennies on the dollar to those who make good decisions.
Not so for government. Spending goes up each year on a baseline budget, and no force in the universe can stop this irresistable lurch into insolvency.
Except the Tea Party 2012, a Republican Senate and any one of the candidates who will certainly replace Obama in January 2013.
buck@gon
September 29th, 2011
9:06 pm
kayaker71,
What would be your impression of the highest standard or Gold Standard, maybe an example we can all be certain of?
TaxPayer
September 29th, 2011
9:07 pm
Thanks Midori. Most people just can’t resist that full head of hair.
TaxPayer
September 29th, 2011
9:09 pm
So, your insinuation is that medical decision-makers are wasting money on machines they don’t need?
That’s not quite the sales pitch that the GE salesmen use but the end result is the same.
AmVet - Read my lips. No new Texans!
September 29th, 2011
9:12 pm
Thanks for that info, 71.
buck and others seem to think that anyone who extols the praises of the VA system is somehow claiming that it is perfect.
What prompts such thought processes is beyond me.
OF COURSE, there are lots of problems with the VA. And lots of horror stories.
And just to make it extremely clear, my claiming it is the Gold Standard is meaningless.
That many credential, respected experts around the country do is not…
getalife
September 29th, 2011
9:13 pm
hanson is not credible buck.
We had this con named Andy post their crap everyday.
Try this one.
“Killing the recovery”:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/29/opinion/killing-the-recovery.html?hp
Lets hope they are wrong.
Strawman
September 29th, 2011
9:13 pm
“irresistible lurch into insolvency”
Now that is a great phrase. At first, I thought the use of the word lurch was inapt because I envisioned this slow sinking into a kind of quicksand. But, upon reconsideration, I thought that if the medical costs were to escalate out of of sight due to…ahem…”unintended consequences,” then yes, there would be this kind of “lurch” into oblivion. Kudos, Buck.
St Simons - we're on Island time
September 29th, 2011
9:15 pm
All we have to say on this is – Ask ANY hospital administrator in our fair state who runs a tighter ship, Medicare or private for-profit insurance. You won’t do it cons. You’re chicken.
Medicare for All. Everybody (without an agenda) knows it.
kayaker 71
September 29th, 2011
9:15 pm
Buck,
The one problem with the VA system in general is that of patient rooms. It was common for patient to be 6 to a room in dormitory style care. The ones that were long term were not a problem but sick patients crowded together like that is not great. Their out patient depts were exceptional. Wait times were usually under 15 min and rarely over 30min.
I only have experience with hospital in which I have worked or those in which I have been a patient. I had open heart surgery in 2009 at Crawford Long (now called Emory Downtown) and have never received the quality of care that I got at that facility. It was outstanding. Also been a patient at the Coliseum Medical Center in Macon where I received outstanding care. It varies as to where you are so perhaps I have just been lucky. The big centers like Cleveland Clinic and Mayo always stand out. Some of the best care on the planet.
buck@gon
September 29th, 2011
9:15 pm
AmVet,
I was going to get to your articles. My time with debate has been with Jay Bookman directly, and our conversation wasn’t with you. As for the VA, I’ve not read your earlier posts prior to my own, sorry you thought I had.
But your monied masters are just laughing at you…
But seeing as your “argument” with me has devolved into quick delusion, I have no interest in bantering with you anymore.
What’s amazing to me is the ubiquity of the liberal concepts of: the racist, the redneck, the stupid sucker enslaved to the rich, the poor (and) minority who wouldn’t have life were it not for liberal government, and the environment dying were it not for the emotive outpouring of liberal dopes.
It all comes down to this, doesn’t it?
Glad it was no skin off your back, but just dopey keystrokes with your fingers. I thought a military vet would have more dignity.
If you weren’t a vet, I would have called you a puerile idiot. Thanks for your service, anyway.