The flat-out paranoia of the NRA and Wayne LaPierre
Wayne LaPierre, the executive vice president of the National Rifle Association, gave me a call at home the other day. In the taped message, my friend Wayne warned me that unless I and other patriotic Americans stepped forward to stop it, the dastardly United Nations, with Iran, China, North Korea and other evil countries behind it, would soon come into our country and into our very homes, strip the Second Amendment out of the Constitution and “take away every pistol, and rifle and shotgun” that we owned.
Riiiggghhht. I just have one question though:
How is the UN going to accomplish this? Are they going to import little bulbous-headed men from Mars toting rayguns to take away our weapons? If so, I’m clinging to my copy of Slim Whitman singing “Indian Love Call” and you can’t have it until you pry it from my cold, dead fingers. Nosireebob.
Look, I recognize that the boundary between serious and seriously crazy has shifted considerably in recent years. But doesn’t this kind of nonsense still qualify on the fully crazy side of the ledger?
The ostensible cause of LaPierre’s hysteria is something called the International Arms Trade Treaty. If ratified by the United Nations and then by the U.S. Senate, it would require countries exporting conventional arms to certify that the weapons aren’t being sent to a terrorist or organized crime group, such as Hezbollah, and that they aren’t being sent to a nation conducting genocide or to a nation under a U.N. arms embargo, such as Iran and North Korea.
It would have no effect whatsoever on domestic ownership, possession or purchase of firearms. Such a claim is politically, practically, legally and constitutionally absurd. So why is Wayne LaPierre calling me and others to pretend otherwise?
Money is part of the reason. The United States accounts for 40 percent of the world’s exports of conventional arms, and the U.S. arms industry is nervous about legislation that might curtail their right to sell arms to whomever they wish. Those manufacturers, not coincidentally, are also heavy donors to the NRA, which is trying to whip up hysteria on their behalf.
In addition, such hysteria is part of the NRA’s own strategy for raising money for its coffers. Once the LaPierre robo-rant about the UN finished, for example, an operator quickly came on line to ask me to donate money to the NRA. I politely declined.
Finally, it’s also a matter of increasingly delusional paranoia infecting the NRA. Prior to the ‘08 election, the gun group warned its members that Barack Obama had a secret 10-point plan to end gun ownership in this country.
Point One was a federal ban on the use of guns for home defense. Point Three was a ban on the sale, manufacture and possession of handguns. Point Four was the closure of 90 percent of American gunshops. Federal taxes on guns and ammunition were supposed to go up 500 percent, and the sale of ammunition for hunting rifles was supposed to be banned altogether.
As you may recall, that bit of hysteria touched off quite a spree of gun-buying after the election, boosting the profits of the NRA’s sponsors in the gun industry. In fact, as ammunition disappeared from store shelves, that itself was quickly cited as evidence that ammo confiscation was already underway. The NRA, in other words, played its own members for patsies.
Today, three years later, none of that has come to pass. Obama has made no effort whatsoever to alter the nation’s gun laws. So, given their hyperbolic claims, you might think that would make LaPierre and others a little embarrassed, right? It’s like when evangelist Harold Camping predicted that the world would end on May 21. When he woke up May 22, you just know he felt at least a wee bit sheepish about it, right?
Well, no. Camping did no such thing, because you see, Camping is crazy. Instead of apologizing, he announced that May 21 had merely been the day of spiritual judgment, and that God was really coming to destroy the universe on Oct. 21, 2011. And that’s exactly the course that LaPierre and the NRA are taking.
In a speech at a conservative conference in Florida this month, LaPierre explained that by taking no action to implement his alleged 10-point program, Obama had actually proved that the NRA had been right all along.
You see, “before the president was even sworn into office, they met and hatched a conspiracy of public deception to guarantee his re-election in 2012″ by just PRETENDING not to seize guns. The failure to act “is all part of a massive Obama conspiracy to deceive voters and hide his true intentions to destroy the Second Amendment.”
“We see the president’s strategy crystal clear. Get re-elected and, with no more elections to worry about, get busy dismantling and destroying our firearms freedom. Erase the Second Amendment from the Bill of Rights and exorcise it from the U.S. Constitution….
President Obama and his cohorts — yeah, they’re going to deny their conspiracy to fool gun owners. Some of the liberal media are probably already blogging about it. But we don’t care because as far as we’re concerned, that lying, conniving Obama crowd can kiss our Constitution!”
The fact that such people have considerable influence over our nation’s policies — for example, 45 senators have signed a letter condemning the arms trade treaty, including the two from Georgia — does not speak well of us.
– Jay Bookman
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603 comments Add your comment
Strawman
September 27th, 2011
7:16 pm
“The results of this are thousands of lives lost each year in America in the name of selfshness and greed.”
Guns (or knives or baseball bats or poison or fists or any other weapon) do not kill people. People do. Cigarettes, in and of themselves, do not kill people. Smoking them does. Alcohol does not kill people. Drinking it to great excess does. And so on…
Now, here’s a question I’d love to see you answer: if laws were ever enacted (with the Supreme Court’s blessing) to prohibit the ownership of guns, would criminals be likely to obey those laws (since, by definition, they are not in some respect law-abiding)?
Jm
September 27th, 2011
7:19 pm
Jay 6:28
Don’t worry it’s mutual
Yes buffet doesn’t own the WHOLE company. He’s a shareholder. Does that means the taxes his company pays don’t count? No serious person would say yes.
In regards to your meandering logic, see the previous post on 7 about SS and Medicare taxes.
Fact: buffet does not pay a lower rate than his secretary
Including things like sales taxes that working people pay and means a lot to them, closes the gap. But not completely.
That last bit is obviously helping you make your argument. But its obvious you prefer to just put blinders on rather than listen.
Jm
September 27th, 2011
7:23 pm
Straw man 6:23
That’s a semi fair question but a very complicated one
What’s your objective?
To extract the most tax revenue possible?
Or to maximize economic growth and prosperity?
stands for decibels
September 27th, 2011
7:24 pm
Oh please Jay have you somehow lost moveon.org? They hold the Dem party in the palm of their hand.
.
hee hee.
Del is clearly, um… special.
Soothsayer
September 27th, 2011
7:25 pm
Here’s one I heard on Sirius today. I was going to save it for Friday night, but, what the heck! Tom T. Hall fans will remember this one. BTW, it was recorded right here in Suwanee at Everett’s Music Barn. Not bad! Give a listen.
JohnnyReb
September 27th, 2011
7:26 pm
Greetings, Josef. I have a home office. After 5, if the caller ID is not family I usually don’t answer.
Matti – I have not heard the NRA robo. However, what you believe lies is likely music to the ears of NRA members. There is no doubt moonbats either are indifferent or want gun control. “Gun control” is fighting words to the Right. Someone, at sometime, made the observation about invading America versus invading a European country. Europe is much easier; not America, as there would be a gun behind every tree/bush.
Jm
September 27th, 2011
7:27 pm
Straw man btw I’m with you on lobbyists
Jm
September 27th, 2011
7:29 pm
Good to see Russia reverting back to a dictatorship…. Bye bye capital
Strawman
September 27th, 2011
7:31 pm
“What’s your objective? To extract the most tax revenue possible? Or to maximize economic growth and prosperity?”
Jm: first it would be to set an upper boundary for for taxes so that it is never exceeded or closely approached (as you would want to have some kind of margin for error to account for vacillations in the GDP, etc.). So this establishes what can maximally be taken in taxes and spent. That’s important for budgetary reasons.
The size and scope of government is a related but separate issue in my mind. I am a conservative, so I would contend for only as much government as is reasonably necessary.
stands for decibels
September 27th, 2011
7:34 pm
“Gun control” is fighting words to the Right.
They is?
Well, see, they are stupid.
TaxPayer
September 27th, 2011
7:39 pm
The Republicans are against gun control because their mind controller tells them so.
north ga granny
September 27th, 2011
7:39 pm
We kept getting these calls,I finally answered after about ten of them and it was the NRA.i listened and when areal person got on I told them I had a gun cabinet full of guns and I did not believe anything they had to say and to not call again.
Jm
September 27th, 2011
7:40 pm
Straw man if your objective is, and maybe I’m not reading some of the thoughts behind your statements correctly, to achieve longer term balanced budgets, there are other ways to do that.
The last most reasonable version I’ve seen is a balanced budget amendment requiring spending not exceed the the highest tax revenue of the previous five years as a percent of GDP
It would in essence permit gradual increases in the size of government if that’s what voters wanted, but would also put a limit on bad government spending
Montana Libertarian
September 27th, 2011
7:41 pm
Right. The UN is a great organization and you can trust everything they say. No tinhorn dictators or tyrannical torturers there. With the possible exception of half the Human Rights Commission.
I’m sorry to inform you that the details of the treaty are not finalized at this point, so lulling yourself to sleep over it is premature.
I am happy that over half the sitting Senators have signed a pledge not to vote for ratification.
Jm
September 27th, 2011
7:42 pm
By “bad government spending” I mean spending without the required tax increases to pay for them
Ala bush
And Obama
Strawman
September 27th, 2011
7:43 pm
“The Republicans are against gun control because their mind controller tells them so.”
It’s good to come here and be exposed to claims and arguments based on solid evidence and reasoning (Jay’s columns notwithstanding – just kidding, my man). No silly or vapid posts on this blog.
out of the blue
September 27th, 2011
7:43 pm
“Obviously I’m late to the party.” Yea JohnnyReb everyone here was worried sick about your whereabouts….As a courtesy in the future please call us at who gives a rats ass!
TaxPayer
September 27th, 2011
7:44 pm
Gun and ammo sales just need a higher tax. In addition to taxing the sales, we should have annual gun ownership fees and gun discharge fees to help cover the cost of putting up with the NRA.
Jm
September 27th, 2011
7:44 pm
The UN is a joke
A “league of democracies” would be far preferable
And Russia wouldn’t qualify anymore
TaxPayer
September 27th, 2011
7:46 pm
It’s okay, Strawman. I know you had no choice but to say that. It is part of your programming.
Matthew
September 27th, 2011
7:47 pm
Wow, and to think that they called you a couple months ago with the same plea for money. I remember that your article was debunked, and dismissed… as this one will be.
Jm
September 27th, 2011
7:48 pm
League of democracies
US, Europe, japan, Canada, Mexico, Indonesia, India, Australia, south America ex Venezuela, etc
Sounds far more pleasant to me than the UN with a bunch of hucksters lumped in
Strawman
September 27th, 2011
7:49 pm
“Straw man if your objective is, and maybe I’m not reading some of the thoughts behind your statements correctly, to achieve longer term balanced budgets, there are other ways to do that.”
Well, I think you always want a balanced budget in any case – one that, by the way, includes maybe 10% for paying off debt (including the debt to the SS “trust fund”) and then (after that) for funding an emergency fund (that would presumably be tapped most years).
Neo
September 27th, 2011
7:50 pm
“It’s okay, Strawman. I know you had no choice but to say that. It is part of your programming.”
Morpheus…is that you???
Jm
September 27th, 2011
7:50 pm
LoD non-invited
Iran, north Korea, pretty much the whole middle east, china, Cuba, etc
TaxPayer
September 27th, 2011
7:52 pm
I think drone heat seekers can home in on the heat signature of a discharged firearm. Guns provide a false sense of security to their owners while providing a real profit to their manufacturers. Taxing, isn’t it.
Jm
September 27th, 2011
7:52 pm
Straw man
Amen. Rather than debt it would be far more preferable to have a reserve
And there’s absolutely no reason it can’t happen other than having a bunch of duplicitous dirtbag pols who like to over promise
TaxPayer
September 27th, 2011
7:54 pm
Morpheus…is that you???
In your dreams, dude.
Matthew
September 27th, 2011
7:55 pm
Just so everyone knows, after you dismiss this crackpot, is that the NRA is concerned about the small arms treaty that the Obama administration is consdiering signing. What the treaty will do is prevent small arms from being exported into or out of the US, and will hurt a lot of industies and gun owners that collect/sell rare or unique firearms.
But my guess is that this psycoltic nutcase made up the phone call, and has sent these letters in to a number of papers hoping that one would get published. He appears to be a fraud that had a supposed NRA telemarketing call recorded and played it until someone noticed that the caller was not acting right or even sounded legitimate.
I’m a life member of the NRA, and cannot remember them ever calling me to persuade me to do anything. The NRA works through the mail, not with telemarketers.
Some advice to people that get these calls. Ask for a call back number, and then call them back. If they are legitimate they will gladly comply, if they are frauds trying to use NRA good will to rip you off, then they will just hang up.
If the writer of this garbage had taken ten minutes to do due diligence and verify his sources like a sixth grade journalist would do, then he would know that what he was writing about was lies.
JohnnyReb
September 27th, 2011
7:56 pm
Out of the Blue – obviously you don’t see the civility of my comment. Not wanting to read 8 pages and the last few posts not being on subject, it was polite on my part to imply my comments could be repeats of others. Just goes to show us wingnuts are not the only ones without manners.
Strawman
September 27th, 2011
7:57 pm
“And there’s absolutely no reason it can’t happen other than having a bunch of duplicitous dirtbag pols who like to over promise”
JM: Yes, I’m still waiting for some presidential candidate – anyone – to plainly and clearly explain to the voting populace, armed with incontrovertible facts, charts, diagrams and easy to follow logic, where we are, how e got here, and the plan for getting out of this mess (including plans A, B and C). Is it me, or is that asking too much?
Jm
September 27th, 2011
7:58 pm
Jay 6:28
Why don’t we do this. We can collaborate on a spreadsheet comparing the two. U can publish the results. Once everything is included it’s very possible you may be correct.
If you’re correct I will concede the argument. Or we may end up arguing some over the assumptions, but it should be pretty straightforward.
Neo
September 27th, 2011
8:01 pm
“In your dreams, dude.”
That doesn’t sound like you. It would be the first time you used used the word “dude” in an address. You must be an agent, then – an agent for the Democratic Machine.
Jm
September 27th, 2011
8:02 pm
Straw man it’s not asking too much
But given political reality very unlikely to happen
Strawman
September 27th, 2011
8:04 pm
“Straw man it’s not asking too much. But given political reality very unlikely to happen.”
But that strikes me as so ironic…because I think just such a presentation would win the candidate 70% of the vote!
Jm
September 27th, 2011
8:04 pm
And jay, we would use ALL taxes including sales and SS and property even though there are reasons not to
TaxPayer
September 27th, 2011
8:04 pm
an agent for the Democratic Machine.
Not just any agent. A Secret Agent, Man.
Jm
September 27th, 2011
8:05 pm
Straw man mitch Daniels is your man. And not running
TruthBe
September 27th, 2011
8:06 pm
Second Admendment rights to barr arms is more important than you stupid liberals.
Strawman
September 27th, 2011
8:08 pm
“Straw man mitch Daniels is your man. And not running.”
I like him…perhaps he will be the VP pick?
Jefferson
September 27th, 2011
8:10 pm
Only half of Coca Cola’s employees are in the USA, so its just about as much a foriegn company as american, so why not complain about american policies. Where’s their loyalty (hint $$$)
Jm
September 27th, 2011
8:10 pm
Straw. Possibly
More likely secretary of treasury or some such thing…
Strawman
September 27th, 2011
8:11 pm
Okay, Jay, JM, GG – I mean Matti, and all others…good night!
Disgusted
September 27th, 2011
8:26 pm
Derek Blowe has already given up 4 runs to the Phillies by the top of the 5th. That’s the return on a $15 million annual salary. Braves? Zip.
Enjoy watching the Cards in the playoffs and Blowe on the golf course.
AmVet
September 27th, 2011
8:38 pm
Yep, I’m with ya, Disgusted. But he does have one amazing record. He is the only MLB pitcher ever to win the divisional, pennant and Series clinching games in the same year.
Too bad it was with that team from New England.
Speaking of which, there’s some desperate sounding story that the Yanks are gonna roll over against the Rays just to keep the BoSux out.
I’m laughing either way.
Disgusted
September 27th, 2011
8:42 pm
It’s 6-0, Phillies, at the end of the 5th. The obese lady is singing for the Braves. Can’t the Braves at least fire somebody? Heck, I’ll settle for canning the bat boy.
Soothsayer
September 27th, 2011
8:47 pm
Here’s a nice bedtime movie you might want to watch sometime. It’s over 2 hours long so you may want to save it to your favorites/bookmark it. Even though it’s long, I invite you to watch the entire movie if you can. You may find it enlightening. Unless, of course you have a closed mind. Then, it won’t do you any good whatsoever.
DEA
September 27th, 2011
8:59 pm
Yes, Mr. LaPierre sounds a bit overly ambitious with some of his claims, but I also have to keep three things in mind:
1.) The U.N. is mostly a corrupt, wasteful, power-grabbing sewer of dictators and liberal bureaucrats, which produces little of value and much to be shameful of.
2.) The author of this column may not have provided the entire context of Mr. LaPierre’s remarks, as he is a far-left liberal. If the NRA’s fears did come to pass, Jay Bookman would likely explain it away as being “in our best interests, anyway”.
3.) The Obama administration would no doubt love to confiscate all of the privately-owned firearms in this country, as his liberal fellow-travelers have done in Europe. However, it’s politically untenable at the present time.
1811/0311
September 27th, 2011
9:00 pm
JAY …………… GUNS ARE NOT YOUR PROBLEM !
Headline (AP): “Libya War ‘Nightmare’ Come True?”
“Secret White House meeting reportedly reveals that 20,000 portable, heat-seeking missiles — with the capacity to down a commercial airplane — have disappeared from a Libyan army warehouse.”
Don't Tread
September 27th, 2011
9:07 pm
“Obama has made no effort whatsoever to alter the nation’s gun laws.”
Pure BS. Obama, though his chief counsel Holder, argued that there was no individual rights guaranteed under the 2nd Amendment in the Heller case, and that the 2nd Amendment was a “collective” right. The Supreme Court disagreed.
Then there’s this whole “Fast and Furious” thing, another backdoor attempt at gaining support for another Clinton gun ban (which has fortunately blown up in his face and is increasingly being exposed for what it is).
But hey, nope, nothing to see here….move along.
Attacking our 2nd Amendment rights is one reason the Democrat Party pushed me away, and it will be a really cold day in hell before I’ll vote for another Democrat.
1811/0311
September 27th, 2011
9:12 pm
Don’t Tread:
Ooo Rah ! Get some !
Common Sense isn't very Common
September 27th, 2011
9:12 pm
Why does Coca Cola hate Americans?
Jefferson
September 27th, 2011
9:16 pm
What’s sad is a home grown company like Coke would sell out and not keep the lion’s share of the jobs at home. They are what they are.
Jefferson
September 27th, 2011
9:20 pm
When the Daytona 500 ran back in Feb, the Toyota Camry was the only car in the race that was Made in the US. The Ford and Chevy, Mexico and Canada. I’m sure the actual race cars were but not the productions models they advertise to be. You know, a company is the people that work for it.
Good Little Liberal
September 27th, 2011
9:32 pm
I said it a hundred times:
When liberals or progressives complain about companies going to other countries, it is like the abusive husband who can’t figure out why his wife left him.
TaxPayer
September 27th, 2011
9:32 pm
The gun manufacturers certainly do know how to work their loyal customers into a buying frenzy. I hear elephant guns are the latest craze. They also come in handy for cutting down small trees — a must if you have ever run out of gas-oil mix for the chainsaw half way through cutting down a tree.
TaxPayer
September 27th, 2011
9:34 pm
If US gun manufacturers want to sell their wares in Iran and North Korea, who are we to just say no. After all, a corporation has got a basic constitutional right to make a profit, don’t it.
Good Little Liberal
September 27th, 2011
9:36 pm
Soothsayer
This again. It is impossible to bring down a building of 100 stories by controlled explosives so that negates any kind of foolishness in some silly assed movie.
buck@gon
September 27th, 2011
9:40 pm
Jay,
You yourself CREATE an absurdity, and maintain your career as a farce far better than you try to find it, to write about it and to eventually “expose” it.
Don’t know which makes you crazier, being a bedwetting liberal on LaPierre’s rolodex or owning Slim Whitman.
Any thoughts?
Good luck pursuing LaPierre, Newt Gingrich and little green men as a distraction while Obama is taking our economy out to the slaughter. Mr. 36% will soon be Mr. 30%; soon to be in sub-Jimmy Carter-land.
He’s nose-diving, and his yelling at the political Congressional Black Caucus did what to help his chances? (circle the best answer)
a) shows how desperate he is
b) shows how out of touch he is
c) shows what an ungrateful prat he is
d) shows what a puerile twit he is, throwing fits like an adolescent
e) shows how in command he is of his election campaign, the Presidency and his base
f) HEY! Lookie here at those NRA guys! Now THEY’RE really crazy and dangerous, let me tell ya!
g) a – d
h) all of the above
i) none of the above
There aren’t many wrong answers here, but you would undoubtedly pick one of the two, Mr. Bookman.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
September 27th, 2011
9:40 pm
I said it a hundred times:
When
liberals or progressives complain aboutcompanies going to other countries, it is like theabusive husband who can’t figure out why his wife left himrich CEO husband who milks the shareholders for exorbitant salaries by his crony directors while running the company into the ground, divorces the old wife who helped him rise to the top and then finds a new trophy wife.___________________
Fixed that for you. Really you need to work on those constant references to abusive spouses (especially with the sexism) and violence against women.
Good Little Liberal
September 27th, 2011
9:41 pm
Taxpayer
I’m sure Mr. Soros is way ahead of you. He has been selling arms to those countries for years.
getalife
September 27th, 2011
9:42 pm
The President will not take our guns cons.
Take off your tin foil hats.
You embarrass our country cons.
Good Little Liberal
September 27th, 2011
9:43 pm
Keep Up the Good Fight!
Sorry kid. You didn’t fix anything except any ill perceptions that you haven’t bought into the evil rich man BS.
Good Little Liberal
September 27th, 2011
9:45 pm
getalife
I’ve never worried about the president taking anyone’s guns. He’s so incompetent, he couldn’t even lead a Democratically controlled congress to pass Universal Health Care, the dream of liberals for decades.
TaxPayer
September 27th, 2011
9:45 pm
I’m sure Mr. Soros is way ahead of you. He has been selling arms to those countries for years.
I wouldn’t know. You got some records. Are you his broker. Do you work on commission.
GT VET
September 27th, 2011
9:46 pm
LMAO…Yes Woodstock Mike,Liberals do hate the Braves and anyone or thing that dosent agree with them you Indian hater ( WHOOPS sorry Liberals) you Native American hater…Speaking of the Braves( bless their hearts) IM still not giving up hope BUT,the fat Lady(WHOOPS sorry Liberals) the heavy set lady is about to sing…..Wow, Liberal J bo started a rant about guns and it ends up about ESPN’s SEC and taxes…btw Jbo how much money do you think the Sugar Bowl will give H.Obama’s campaign this year? They do like supporting the Dems ya know……..OUT
Keep Up the Good Fight!
September 27th, 2011
9:46 pm
GLL,
as compared to your daily BS and violent references against women…… 
TaxPayer
September 27th, 2011
9:47 pm
ObamaCare should be called ConCare, technically speaking.
Good Little Liberal
September 27th, 2011
9:47 pm
TaxPayer
Nah, I’m not his broker. I don’t deal with NAZIs.
independent thinker
September 27th, 2011
9:48 pm
What’s the big dea;? The NRA is dedicated to protecting the right of crazies to bear arms and maim and kill. So what if their leader is a little off in the head?
Good Little Liberal
September 27th, 2011
9:50 pm
Keep Up the Good Fight!
Violent references toward women? LOL!!
I would ask you to point out those references but I already know you can’t.
Good Little Liberal
September 27th, 2011
9:52 pm
independent thinker
Of the people who used a gun within the past 24 hours in this country to illegally shoot another person, how many of those people would you say belong to the NRA?
TaxPayer
September 27th, 2011
9:53 pm
I don’t deal with NAZIs
Why am I not surprised to see you post something so utterly stupid.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
September 27th, 2011
9:53 pm
Gll… abusive husband and rape have been some of the “themes” of your posts today….and you in fact claim to have referenced the abusive husband reference “hundreds” of times…. Guess you lose.
buck@gon
September 27th, 2011
9:54 pm
Good little liberal & Soothsayer,
Wow!
Two loonies, but both wrong. One says explosives brought down the WTC, the other thinks its impossible to do so with explosives.
Fellas, I don’t know where to begin. As a Georgia Tech heluvanengineer, I’m quite certain that whatever I have to say from a technical perspective will be met with blank stares, if not open, drueling mouths, because I entirely disproved the truthers scenario last week. Seeing no objections I assumed that upon charging me to refute the facts (which I did), you then had nothing left to say, giving me the last word and the final say on the matter.
So I’ll keep my evidence short, this time. —-Adiabatic flame temperature for Kerosene (roughly equal to jet fuel)–look it up on Wikipedia.
Could the jet fuel burning inside a semi-enclosed structure cause steel to melt? ANSWER: UNEQUIVOCALLY YES!
Can a steel building or any building be knocked down with explosives? ANSWER: ABSOLUTELY YES!
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?reload=true&arnumber=5120026&abstractAccess=no&userType=inst
Not that explosives were needed. Above, I prove that the flames from a jet fuel roasting are more than hot enough to weaken the steel severly, and indeed to melt it entirely, if the exposure is long enough.
Any thoughts, guys? Any last arguments before the door shuts?
Good Little Liberal
September 27th, 2011
9:54 pm
Keep Up the Good Fight!
Oh. Wow. what a great point. You win.
Now run along.
buck@gon
September 27th, 2011
9:57 pm
“The NRA is dedicated to protecting the right of crazies to bear arms and maim and kill.”
That your perception of the Second Amendment, and Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, John Adams, Alexander Hamilton and Ben Franklin who all gave input to the constitution?
Just curious.
TaxPayer
September 27th, 2011
10:00 pm
I recall reading something at one time that the asbestos covering the structural steel members in the WTC was damaged thus allowing them to be heated to a temperature high enough to allow them to deform significantly under reduced load and this deformation contributed to the subsequent failure. It sounds fairly reasonable even though I have not actually personally reviewed any detailed analysis.
Good Little Liberal
September 27th, 2011
10:01 pm
buck@gon
You’ve done this before. Try to understand that I don’t believe the conspiracy theories. A controlled explosion did not bring down the WTC. Two jet Airliners filled with J-2, (a jet fuel very close to kerosene, but not exactly, Mr. engineer). were crashed into the buildings. the high temperatures resulting from the contained fires weakened the tensile strength of the steel holding up the buildings and they collapsed.
Get it? That’s what I believe.
buck@gon
September 27th, 2011
10:02 pm
The President will not take our guns cons.
Take off your tin foil hats.
You embarrass our country cons.
You know getalife, it’s really hard to be more embarassed than an unemployed struggling African American whose President chastises him/her for wearing around bedroom slippers and not “marching”–or whatever that means.
It’s a little hard to be embarassed about anything when we have a President who has gone into “adolescent mode”.
I guess all that talk about the International Criminal Court arresting Bush 43 was all “crazy talk” just like this LaPierre nonissue?
Keep Up the Good Fight!
September 27th, 2011
10:07 pm
Don’t you love it when someone tries to imply you are posting lies and then when you do prove that the truth was posted, they deflect.
Then again, referring to George Soros, a child during the war, as a Nazi just demonstrates the lack of credibility.
buck@gon
September 27th, 2011
10:10 pm
Get it? That’s what I believe.
GLL,
Got it. My HUMBLE apologies! I won’t doubt you on that again, I’m sorry. Since I am not here that often, please excuse my forgetfulness should I open-fire upon you again on this matter sometime in the coming weeks or months. I’ll try not to forget. It’s hard with the loonies in this smelly basement of Jay Bookman’s twisted little mind.
Going back to the tin foil hats. The truthers have the monopoly on those HERE.
I don’t know which is crazier, that LaPierre left a message on Bookman’s answering machine or whether a massive government conspiracy led by the Bush family via the bilderbergers, told a cabal of peace-loving Muslims to hijack 4 airliners so that they could do a real estate deal in lower Manhattan, stick the finger at the Pentagon, have a MASSIVE cow tipping in the rural Pennsylvania and lead the country to war.
No, wait. One IS crazier, isn’t it?
Good Little Liberal
September 27th, 2011
10:11 pm
Keep Up the Good Fight!
You are going to try to twist whatever I say into some kind of nonsense, no matter what I say. I don’t argue with children. If you aren’t a child, you should be ashamed. You constantly act like one.
buck@gon
September 27th, 2011
10:12 pm
GLL @ 9:32,
I’m not trying to suck up to you, but that’s a very good point.
Well, I suppose I am, but still. That’s a VERY good analogy!
Keep Up the Good Fight!
September 27th, 2011
10:17 pm
GLL, I am not the one calling a Holocaust survivor, a Nazi. And your effort to lay a guilt trip and name call for pointing out constant lies, violent rhetoric and false claims…. well sorry, does not work. Let’s do try to stay to the posts and avoid one of your meltdowns.
Good Little Liberal
September 27th, 2011
10:18 pm
buck@gon
No problem, but it is also a fact that once a building is beyond a certain weight, it can’t be brought down with controlled explosives. The tallest building to date was 47 stories tall. Most are much shorter (and less heavy) The weakening of the support beams at the lower floors, making it possible for the demo charges to work, would make a very tall building much too unstable to be controlled.
As an engineer, this should be obvious to you, especially if you have any experience with demolition.
MrLiberty
September 27th, 2011
10:19 pm
Freedom, once lost, is rarely ever restored. The NRA are sellouts and have done a worthless job protecting american’s rights to be armed against their government and for their own protection.
One can call it paranoia, but the first thing Hitler did was pass the Gun Control act of 1939 – which was the direct model for the Gun Control Act of 1968 in the US. Why don’t you ask the residents of the Warsaw Ghetto what might have happened to them had they given up their rights? Oh that’s right, they would have ended up dead like all the other jews.
It is amazing that so many jew support gun control in the face of the horrors that GOVERNMENTS, not individuals, have perpetrated against them throughout history. I guess some people never learn. Those of us who have learned don’t appreciate your flippant and ignorant comments and reassurances. This government clearly no longer cares about freedom or liberty (and hasn’t for many decades now).
Keep Up the Good Fight!
September 27th, 2011
10:20 pm
And repeating the Beck nonsense about Soros is really a shameful effort on your part
Good Little Liberal
September 27th, 2011
10:24 pm
Keep Up The Good Fight!!
Read this slowly.
I don’t argue with children.
Good Little Liberal
September 27th, 2011
10:25 pm
Soros a holocaust survivor. LOL!!!
TaxPayer
September 27th, 2011
10:26 pm
I know this is a rather weighty topic but I have found that buildings weighing nothing cannot fall regardless of the level of gravitational attraction between said building and the planetary body upon which it may or may be resting at the moment.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
September 27th, 2011
10:28 pm
GLL, you don’t argue with adults apparently either,
But you continue to post false claims, lies, etc.
Good Little Liberal
September 27th, 2011
10:31 pm
And he’s still throwing a tantrum.
Why don’t you just go ahead and write Jay a letter saying that I abused you. That’s your goal here. Save us all some time.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
September 27th, 2011
10:36 pm
Not at all GLL. Like you, I hate to see anyone banned.
I just want to see honest posters posting the truth and not making Beck-style crazy claims and using violent rhetoric. I dont have to tell people that if I want their respect, I’ll beat it out of them.
luangtom
September 27th, 2011
10:37 pm
Jay….you ask who is going to get weapons from American citizens if the USA joins others in the UN and follows the guidelines of the UN-treaty? Well, our very soldiers that OUR government trains to disarm the citizens of other lands that we occupy. Ask any US serviceman or woman if they were trained in disarming civilians. They will wholeheartedly tell you that they have been. If the current President has his way, we will become a viable partner with the UN and we will have a UN force on our shores with US soldiers as its core. It may sound far-fetched to you and it may bring scuffaws from people with their heads in the sand, but it is a plausible event and could certainly happen here.
Many will scuffaw at the thought of this President declaring a “national emergency” and dispensing with civil and criminal law as we know it. It can happen if we allow it to. Does it truly sound far-fetched to think that the President could declared an emergency of historic proportions and institute a nation-wide curfew or martial-law? Look at what happened in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. The local police disarmed the local citizens in the name of public-safety. It is not out of the realm of possibilities to see it happen on a national level is it?
Good Little Liberal
September 27th, 2011
10:40 pm
Keep Up the Good Fight!
I
don’t
argue
with
children.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
September 27th, 2011
10:43 pm
Name calling does not make you an adult. I really don’t care to “argue” with you. I’ll just continue to post the truth and evidence about your posts as I have done, without the personal attacks.
Good Little Liberal
September 27th, 2011
10:44 pm
Keep Up the Good Fight!
I
don’t
argue
with
children.
Get it?
Keep Up the Good Fight!
September 27th, 2011
10:44 pm
luang, you do comprehend the supremacy of the US Constitution over treaties, correct?
Good Little Liberal
September 27th, 2011
10:44 pm
Good night to anyone who is still up.
I need to hit the sack.