Metro voters at least open to transportation tax
It would be great if next year’s region-wide referendum on a new transportation tax were to pass by the margin suggested in a newly released AJC poll. According to Mason-Dixon pollsters, 51 percent of registered voters say they would approve the one-penny tax, with just 36 percent opposed.
In fact, if repeated next year, such a result would be more than great. It would be downright shocking.
That’s not a reflection on the merits of the poll, which probably offers an accurate snapshot of public sentiment as it exists today. The only problem is, the vote won’t be held today. Given that Mason-Dixon found that just 29 percent of metro voters are even somewhat familiar with the proposed tax, a lot of minds are destined to change, one way or the other, in the months to come.
In fact, if the referendum does pass, I’d bet it would be by fewer than five percentage points. At the moment, even that would be a bit of an upset.
However, the poll results do offer a lot of pleasant surprises and cause for optimism, suggesting that the political landscape is not quite as forbidding as it might have seemed. It also offers one unpleasant result that isn’t a surprise in the least and may represent the proposal’s single biggest obstacle to passage.
For example, are suburban voters in Cobb and Gwinnett opposed to the measure before they even know much about it? No. By a margin of 48 to 42 percent, they say they support it.
Will transportation advocates have to overcome a knee-jerk opposition to new taxes in general? No again. Only 42 percent say they would refuse to support this or any other tax increase.
You also hear a lot of claims that metro Atlantans just won’t vote to spend money on public transit. Again, the poll suggests otherwise. Two-thirds of those responding believe that their community would benefit from expanded transit, and 82 percent agree that it’s important to encourage commuting via transit.
Overall, 91 percent of those polled said it was important to address the region’s transportation problems, and 67 percent said that congestion is causing a decline in quality of life here. Those are all good baseline numbers upon which to build a successful campaign. People understand there’s a problem and they want a solution.
So what’s the bad news? When voters were asked whether state and local officials would end the one-penny sales tax in 10 years, only 42 percent had faith the promise would be kept. The fact that the promise is written into law, ensuring that the tax could be renewed only if voters re-approve it come 2022, doesn’t change the reality that the public is deeply distrustful.
That lack of faith, driven in part by decisions such as keeping a toll on Ga. 400 beyond the promised time frame, is probably the single biggest obstacle to be overcome.
It also doesn’t help much that mechanisms for planning, funding and executing the regionwide transportation plan are awkward and unwieldy. That’s a direct consequence of a General Assembly and governor that were less interested in solving the problem than in finding a way to dump responsibility on someone else, in this case voters and local officials. If a camel is a horse designed by committee, this process is admittedly a camel.
On the other hand, if you’re stuck in the desert with no other options, a camel can be quite a fine transportation alternative. And that’s pretty much where we find ourselves. As voices rise in opposition to the referendum, it will be important to ask what alternative solutions they propose because realistically, there aren’t any.
– Jay Bookman
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
251 comments Add your comment
Good Little Liberal
September 26th, 2011
7:26 am
Same old argument. If you work near a MARTA line, it works. If not, no one is going to spend hours doing the bus transfers to get to work.
Jm
September 26th, 2011
7:46 am
It will take leadership and a unified voice from all the municipal leaders for this to succeed.
Voters need to understand why this is needed.
So far, I don’t see the selling happening….
Normal
September 26th, 2011
7:46 am
I don’t know…years ago, when I lived in East Point and worked downtown, I took the bus because of city traffic and parking fees. I had to transfer in West End. The bus stop was at a Krispy Kreme, though. It was nice to sit in the bus, eating a couple of glazed doughnuts, fresh from the fat, sip some coffee, and read the AJC. All and all, not a bad deal. And…that’s the point, you make the best of your situation. Too many people feel that public transportation is beneath them. Try it before you knock it, is all I’m saying.
Jm
September 26th, 2011
7:47 am
….but it’s still early
Jm
September 26th, 2011
7:51 am
GLL fair point
Fast transit (faster and easier than a car) needs to go everywhere you need to go
Or it’s a bust
ByteMe
September 26th, 2011
8:03 am
So only 29% know about it at this point? That means that 71% of the people who vote are ignorant of something that’s been discussed quite a bit in the 6 months since it passed. And the ignorant vote, too… and unfortunately, they’re more likely to vote against their best interests.
Good Little Liberal
September 26th, 2011
8:04 am
Jm
Normal has a point. Some people do believe that it is beneath them.
I drive a 1999 Chevy so nothing is beneath me. Here’s my problem:
It’s a possible 15 minute wait for every transfer so you need to factor that into your schedule. Catching the bus and one transfer adds as much as 30 minutes, if the buses are on time. Once you get to where you are going, you are without a car. Going to lunch, running out to a meeting somewhere, it’s all impossible.
It’s just a very tight group of people with very specific needs that can ride a bus or really ride the trains. For special events, the trains are great and riding a bike also works with trains and buses, but if a person is dressed for business, oil on the pant leg and a sweaty shirt is not good.
The way the system works, it just doesn’t work for that many people. No matter how high gas prices get, MARTA cannot be an alternative except for a few people. As I have said, a system that would transfer cars like a land ferry would work but as Bro stated, it would take forever to load up all the cars. There’s probably a solution, but I have no idea what it is. I just know that no matter how much taxes are raised and how many people want MARTA to be the answer, it just isn’t.
N-GA
September 26th, 2011
8:05 am
In Copenhagen there are bike racks 2-high at all intown train depots. Literally thousands of bike racks. And they are free. Danes take the train in from the burbs, then ride their bikes to work. City streets have bike lanes separated from auto lanes by concrete “curbs”. Pedestrians must be more alert for bicycles than cars.
I don’t remember seeing any obese Danes……..
Rick in Grayson
September 26th, 2011
8:06 am
Good Little Liberal said it all!
I don’t work or live anywhere near a metro rail station. It would cost me more money and time to use Marta to get to work. This is not New York City or Chicago! Atlanta is one big burb.
Gwinnett County has a higher population than Atlanta (downtown) and is too spread out to put trains everywhere.
Jay
September 26th, 2011
8:09 am
Once the train lines exist, development and density will concentrate around the stations in the same way that development pops up around a new interstate interchange. That’s been the experience in the Washington, D.C. metro area and every other place where rail has been installed.
It’s a chicken-and-egg question.
Mike B.
September 26th, 2011
8:09 am
If mass transit has all these benefits, why do we need a special tax to subsidize it? Just set the fares at a point high enough to cover the costs.
Rick in Grayson
September 26th, 2011
8:10 am
The answer is to get more big employers to locate in a suburban location and eventually their employees would move to that location reducing traffic on the interstates.
Build an airport out by commerce and allow north Metro residents and employers to use that airport.
Bill Orvis White
September 26th, 2011
8:19 am
Public transport is a boondoggle. City after city shows that it loses money and people don’t end up living near train stations because of the crime and noise. America loves its cars, trucks and SUVs, pure and simple.
ByteMe
September 26th, 2011
8:21 am
If mass transit has all these benefits, why do we need a special tax to subsidize it? Just set the fares at a point high enough to cover the costs.
Dunno, why do we have taxes to subsidize roads, air travel, and so on?
Paul
September 26th, 2011
8:27 am
Best of luck to you.
Looks like people are distrustful of govt and money at many levels – not just federal.
Gale
September 26th, 2011
8:34 am
Sprawl works against a public trans solution. We live all over and work all over. I can imagine a solution that would work for me and plenty of folks out my way at the home collection point; a local kiss and ride point. But that last mile is a problem. We don’t work at the same place even if we did get an express ride (with the reduction of cars on the road) to Perimeter or Downtown. We have all added at least a half hour to our trips for the convenience of that 15 minute express ride.
Jm
September 26th, 2011
8:35 am
Jay 8:09 so far that has not proven to be the case in Atlanta
Call it like it is
September 26th, 2011
8:35 am
Comes down to trust pure and simple. The govt is not doing anything right now to garner us paying more taxes. Jay you hit it on the head with the 400 toll that was closed down for a week, then open right back up. Even written into law, they will come up with a way to dodge it. Also too many questions, in regards to where the money will go. I will be surprised if it passes. It depends on how many scary commericals the state puts out about it.
Gale
September 26th, 2011
8:37 am
Satellite office would be a good idea. They could even be shared by the big companies. Give staff a place to work in the burbs. Share teleconference facilities. Share conference rooms and the like. I think these places are already working for small business.
stands for decibels
September 26th, 2011
8:38 am
Fast transit (faster and easier than a car)
Speaking only for myself, it doesn’t have to be faster, just in-the-ballpark. ±33% average elapsed time or so.
Jm
September 26th, 2011
8:39 am
Enter your comments here
carlosgvv
September 26th, 2011
8:44 am
Voters do have a lack of faith that politicians will keep their promises. It isn’t just that they doubt the tax will end in 10 years. The other doubt is that all the money will be spent on transportation and not on politician’s pet pork projects.
cobbco
September 26th, 2011
8:44 am
$1 billion in new cobb county taxes to get a rail line from midtown to cumberland mall? No thanks–a total waste of money. If cumberland business owners want that rail line to get them more money, let them pay for it.
Jm
September 26th, 2011
8:45 am
Whoops
Walk the Talk
September 26th, 2011
8:47 am
We were out riding around parts of Gwinnett, Hall and a few other counties over the weekend and we saw lots of empty buildings so I just don’t see the concern regarding mass transportation. All we need to do is properly utilize all that empty space by putting people to work within walking distance of home and shopping and schools and just get rid of this issue of transportation for everyone and save that tax money for more important things like getting rid of abortions and stuff. Everything else can be covered by telecommuting.
Jm
September 26th, 2011
8:48 am
Sfd
Door to door it should be faster IMO
Given car parking time etc, it doesn’t have to be exactly the same
But with transit u have walking time, stops, transfers etc
At the pace of advancing gridlock in ATL though, it should be competitive soon enough
Peter
September 26th, 2011
8:49 am
I support public transit (MARTA) but, sadly, it’s not likely to happen in my lifetime
Past lack of foresight by Georgia “leadership” has cost the state in so many areas. (I look forward to going home when I retire.)
Walk the Talk
September 26th, 2011
8:50 am
It’s a good thing Sonny ended that Ga 400 toll right on schedule as promised otherwise people might not have good reason to trust the politicians occupying Georgia.
Peter
September 26th, 2011
8:55 am
Yes the real deal is…if the GOP gets their tax like the GA 400 toll, they won’t let it go as they plan.
That would be a LIE………but hey that is the Georgia GOP.
Chris
September 26th, 2011
8:55 am
To those who think public transit is only helpful to those who live near a train station–the stations in the burbs all have huge park and ride lots. So you can drive to the station and then ride in. Also, even if you find it impossible to use public transit, it still keeps thousands of people off the roads, so it reduces gridlock, which helps everyone.
stands for decibels
September 26th, 2011
8:56 am
Door to door it should be faster IMO
Given car parking time etc, it doesn’t have to be exactly the same
Maybe if you factor in some of the time spent on stuff one can do on the bus/train that one might be doing at home instead (reading/watching news, napping…) it becomes more time-effective for some. Just speculation though.
MountainMan
September 26th, 2011
8:56 am
Parking is too cheap (relatively) in Atlanta to encourage mass transit. In cities where it works, parking is either non existant or extremely expensive. Atlanta still has a lot of parking downtown at a rate that people are willing to pay. In the perimter office parks it is free. As long as you have some place to park your car then people will more than likely drive.
Fly-On-The-Wall
September 26th, 2011
9:00 am
I believe it light rail is built then people will use it. It may, in the beginning, not have the total ridership it would like to have but it will grow over time if is is allowed to by our so called representatives in state government. They seem to be against anything like this so my fear is that they would find a way to choke it much like they do with Marta and that silly 50% revenue requirement.
If we can be creative, like the Danes and other countries then we can solve this problem. But much like any addict you have to admit that you have a problem to begin with and I think many of our so called leaders do not think that the problem is as bad as it is.
Jm
September 26th, 2011
9:00 am
Jay where’s the column about insane democrats threatening to shut the government down because the republicans tried to save a couple billion as offsets to the emergency aid
Moderate Lamar Alexander said senate dems should have passed it but refused
What say you? (or are there no sinners in the House of Democrats?)
Walk the Talk
September 26th, 2011
9:03 am
Republicans cannot be trusted.
Politi Cal
September 26th, 2011
9:04 am
MARTA is almost useless if you don’t live near a line (and not many of us do). By the time I drive to a train station, park my car, walk to the line, wait on the train, and sit for thirty to forty minutes on the train, and get off the train six blocks frtom my job, I can be where I wanted to go aleady in a car. It needs not only to be efficient but also convenient.
jj
September 26th, 2011
9:04 am
The problem with the bill as proposed is it has mass spending but very little mass transit.
This is what people will pay for:
Marta trains up 400 to Windward
East 20 to Conyers
West 20 to Douglasville
South on 85 to Peachtree City
South on 75 to McDonough
N on 75 to Busbee Parkway
N on 85 Steve Reynolds
No money for bike lanes or little intersection projects that are in the plan to keep every area of every county happy.
We currently have MARTA serving the city of Atlanta and it’s 420,000 people, the problem is there are another 5 million not being served.
Fly-On-The-Wall
September 26th, 2011
9:05 am
JM,
I don’t think it is insane Democrats but continually insane Republicans who think that every emergency must have an offset spending cut. I don’t see too many cuts in the areas where we can truly save money, such as defence.
The Republicans (really the insane Tea Party people) need to understand that you cannot continually cut without hurting at some point. The company I work for is experiencing the same thing. Our previous CEO cut so much that we now do not have enough people to grow the business. This will happen to a nation as well when we need to grow the country to meet the 21st century challenges. Drop the cut demands and fund FEMA!
Bosch
September 26th, 2011
9:06 am
“Jay where’s the column about insane democrats threatening to shut the government down because the republicans tried to save a couple billion as offsets to the emergency aid”
It’s at blogger.com under Jm’s Random Venting Blog….go for it.
Jm
September 26th, 2011
9:09 am
Sfd I don’t disagree
At least until cars drive themselves
Google and VW already have prototypes
HDB
September 26th, 2011
9:09 am
For me, the issue isn’t the tax (I’m for it!)…but the issue is would ALL of the metro governments work together in an attempt to SOLVE the region’s transportation problem….or would the continued INFIGHTING keep the transportation issue gridlocked?? When MARTA was envisioned in the 70s, all of the metro Atlanta counties were considered…bus lines fed the rail system, and the rail system could rapidly move passengers throughout the system. The animosity of governments OTP to Atlanta residents fueled the downscaled approach to serve only Fulton and DeKalb residents! Now that traffic is at such a point, not only must we revisit a complete integration of ALL transportation systems (MARTA, CCT, GRTA, GCT) into one regional system, but we MUST work on integrating all of the traffic signals (i.e., updating the computer systems) and better systemic design of traffic patterns!!
When a road is designed…by the time it’s completed….it’s OBSOLETE!!!
stands for decibels
September 26th, 2011
9:11 am
Jm @ 9.00, Lamar! Alexander?
What can I say. Like Hebrew National, some of us have to answer to an even higher authority.
Gotta go produce. Later.
poison pen
September 26th, 2011
9:13 am
Jay, Is there a map of what is being proposed, I went to Marta’s web site and couldn’t find anything.
I hope this isn’t another one of those, ” we will know what’s in it after it passes “
Walk the Talk
September 26th, 2011
9:16 am
Republicans have set a precedent on their so-called promises with Sonny’s stop-start of the Ga 400 toll. They can essentially promise to end any tax as a ploy to get voter approval knowing that all they need do in the future is end the tax for a second before starting it back up again. Promise kept. In fact, they have been abusing voters in many counties by using similar techniques. You must be careful to analyze their precise words and look for the loopholes that they implanted for the sole purpose of deceiving their constituency. Do not ever trust a Republican.
Steve - USA
September 26th, 2011
9:20 am
Used to ride the Paoli local into Philly all the time, I love trains. I would often take them to NYC or Boston. Trains are very communal thing, if you like people it is a fun ride.
Having said that it seems like Atlanta is so spread out and is not as easy to get around. Up North the subways were so easy to use.
Jm
September 26th, 2011
9:20 am
The only, but good, justification for transit is that gridlock will continue to get worse making transit more competitive over the very long run
Atlanta is entering a new phase of slow growth
The adjustment will be painful and there is a risk of Detroit style collapse if not well managed
Jay
September 26th, 2011
9:21 am
Poison:
http://www.atlantaregionalroundtable.com/projects.html
Midori
September 26th, 2011
9:21 am
why do Republicans fear the future?
BW
September 26th, 2011
9:24 am
The interesting question is this: The region is expected to add 1 to 2 million new residents by 2025…where will these residents settle? I don’t believe you will find too many anxious for the Acworth to Sandy Springs commute or the Lawrenceville to midtown commute. Thankfully I get to look at the I-85 southbound traffic from the Pleasant Hill interchange and shake my head but my commute, Duluth to Alpharetta, takes almost as long as it takes my wife to drive from Duluth to Athens for school. That is totally ridiculous. We in the burbs have let alot of our local reps off the hook for not improving the intra and inter-county roads. For instance my issue is that there are three viable spots to cross the Chattahoochee and the best one (McGinnis Ferry) has an unfinished new bridge that will soon fill with new people once done because it allows you to bypass the morass of Johns Creek. For me I will have to drive to work but for those people driving down I-85 to transfer to downtown, midtown, or Sandy Springs I believe a train would benefit. I think that there needs to be a large bore effort to focus on trains across the north end i.e. Cobb to north Fulton to Gwinnett, with lines into the Sandy Springs-Dunwoody area and into downtown and finally onto the airport. That is the only thing I believe will allow us northsiders buy-in to transit. This shouldn’t be an issue since Republicans run the show…but then again people don’t trust the people they are voting for…kinda schizoprenic and strange to me. Back to my main point there needs to be a comprehensive rail plan that allows buy-in from all sides of town and better local congestion relief plans and we will all be onboard. Are there any politicans representing this state with the gravitas to pull it off is the $64,000 question.
saywhat
September 26th, 2011
9:26 am
Take another look at the polling methodology. The results do not bode well for the future of TSPLOST.
51% of REGISTERED voters approve. All those registered voters certainly won’t be showing up during what is essentially a Republican primary to vote in favor of TSPLOST. The poll should have focused on LIKELY voters. Who is most likely to vote? The same “tea party” types whose opinions, according to the poll, are not shared by the majority.
Doggone/GA
September 26th, 2011
9:26 am
“why do Republicans fear the future”
Over that last vew years…I’m trying to figure out what they DON’T fear
jm
September 26th, 2011
9:29 am
Good to see Reid playing roulette with the federal budget and disaster aid
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0911/64385.html
Bill Orvis White
September 26th, 2011
9:29 am
@Midori We fear for our future because WE THE PEOPLE can no longer afford it. Hussein Obama has spent us into a hole we cannot dig ourselves out of — and let’s stop this that it’s the honorable Pres. GW Bush’s recession and fault. Lil Hussein can no longer use that excuse. WE THE PEOPLE in the Tea Party wing of the rightful Republican Party are sick and tired of Washington’s out-of-control spending. We need to get our priorities straight by making gas affordable by drilling for oil here at home. Why can’t the private sector build more roads instead of urban areas attempting to build broken down public trains that lead welfare recipients to nowhere but the unemployment check lines.
Amen,
Bill
willydoit?
September 26th, 2011
9:30 am
Republicans fear the future because they know eventually that someone will have to pay for all these democrat lame-brained ideas.
Walk the Talk
September 26th, 2011
9:33 am
If Republicans want to pass something like a transportation bill, then they will word it something like,
“…this fee will be implemented for a maximum of one year and all proceeds will be used to fund transportation…”
and then the taxes collected from the readily approved legislation will be subsequently used to pay for their own limo service to and from their Capitol and their vacation spots, etc., much like their tire disposal fee.
godless heathen
September 26th, 2011
9:35 am
Saw a report on the news just this weekend that the city with the worst commuting was, New York City. Not Atlanta, not LA, not Houston, but NYC with subways and trains that go everywhere.
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
9:36 am
Interesting comments.
Yes, the great North Eastern Corridor is great for mass transit. Just a few of the monster buildings in Manhattan would justify mass transit to those areas, But Atlanta simply doesn’t have that. The city was not built in a confined space and as it grew, it grew out, not up.
Jay, MARTA has been around for a very long time and the train stations have simply not spurred growth, I would guess because of the associated crime.
Midori, it has nothing to do with the future. The future is people being able to work at home, not spending sometimes an hour or more transferring between buses to get to an office where they can set in front of a computer. And remember, working from home takes the dreaded IT fascist out of the loop.
Jay, I would love to see a blog about the unbelievable power of IT, but of course, your article better be very complimentary toward IT or they would gladly screw up your blog for weeks.
BW
September 26th, 2011
9:36 am
Bill
So Obama has been the only president deficit spending? All this with the support of Congress of course. Forget Washington for a second…this is a Georgia issue we are discussing. There’s no plausible way you can claim that the Republican party doesn’t run this state. And yet you don’t trust the people you are voting into office?? Am I the only one who thinks this is madness? There is no more space to build roads in a way that would reduce your commute. I agree that there are many roads that have insane traffic that they didn’t have ten years ago but where is the anger towards the local planning officials who allowed every home developer to build without expanding local capacity? Gwinnett has probably the best planned interstitial roads excluding the Mall of Georgia area and north along I-85 of any county which allowed phenomenal growth over the last ten to twenty years…what happened in Cobb and north Fulton? Finally even if the private sector builds those roads you will pay for them just as you would pay for mass transit…the bottom line is nothing is free or even cheap.
BW
September 26th, 2011
9:40 am
godless heathen
There are 20 million people in the NYC metro area!!! 20 million!!! Talk about an apples to oranges comparison. In addition it is a densely packed 20 million. Compare that to the Atlanta region at 5 million people…half a million in Atlanta, a million each in Cobb and Gwinnett, another million in Fulton, the rest spread over the 20 county metro area. The only reason New York works at all is the public transit. Imagine all those people driving to work.
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
9:40 am
BTW, Marta trains use massive amounts of electricity which is produced by coal burning power stations, so when you ride a MARTA train, you are using a transportation system that is not quite as efficient as the coal burning stream trains of the 19th century.
Midori
September 26th, 2011
9:40 am
@Midori We fear for our future because WE THE PEOPLE can no longer afford it
complete and utter rubbish.
where was this “fear” during the lead up to the current situation? when Bush was in office, no amount of money wasted on no amount of stupidity was loudly applauded.
BW
September 26th, 2011
9:42 am
GLL
There’s plenty of infill to be done in the central business district downtown as well as in Midtown. Only the parking prices will drive mass transit. Even if people balk at that, there’s not enough road capacity for all business to move out of the city of Atlanta to the burbs.
Midori
September 26th, 2011
9:42 am
Republicans fear the future because they know eventually that someone will have to pay for all these democrat lame-brained ideas.
is that any different from Repulican lame-brained ideas?
Like this? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/26/iraq-withdrawal-us-bases-equipment_n_975463.html
That war has to be the biggest lame-brained idea in the history of this country.
BW
September 26th, 2011
9:44 am
GLL
Alot of these coal fired plants are being converted into natural gas fired plants due to emission requirements from the EPA. But yes that is an issue…to have growth we need reliable power…will we be able to count on it?
Steve - USA
September 26th, 2011
9:44 am
When I lived in South Florida I rode the tri-rail to sporting events. That train had new cool looking cars. The MARTA cars look so depressing and old.
http://www.tri-rail.com/
godless heathen
September 26th, 2011
9:46 am
BW: But the liberals vision for Atlanta is to discourage urban sprawl and suburbs. They advocate very high density living with subways, trains, and buses going everywhere. Be like New York with the worst commutes in the country?
HDB
September 26th, 2011
9:48 am
Bill Orvis White
September 26th, 2011
9:29 am
First: Wherenwere YOU when the nation was BUSHwhacked?? No complaints, then, huh??
Second: Private industry would wind up being SUBSIDIZED for any new roads built; who do you think is doing the subsidy? The government, i.e., WE the taxpayers!!
Third: By the time a new road is designed, it’s already obsolete!! A paradigm shift is SORELY needed!!
Any questions??
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
9:40 am
Don’t forget — solar/wind farms and the hydroelectric dam at Lake Lanier are producing electricity for MARTA also! It’s greener than more cars getting on the expressway!!
Walk the Talk
September 26th, 2011
9:48 am
Wait until all the people stuck on the expressway in heavier traffic start thinking about how the Republicans took away a lane on the expressway that they have already paid for once and turned it into something that they have to pay a variable rate for in order to get out of the traffic that was created by creating the new pay lane. Add that to the non-fading memory of Sonny’s failure to keep the promise to end the Ga 400 toll as promised and the phoney tire disposal fee that does not dispose of tires and the hype about how those people heading up the Georgia Lottery are worth every penny and… Never ever trust a Republican.
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
9:48 am
Midori
Once again the argument for the massive spending of this administration is that Bush did it, but the reality is that while Bush did increase spending, it was nothing like what Obama has done.
So the logic is: We hate Bush. We hate Republicans. They must get out of office.
Obama is right and the reason why he is right is because he is doing what Bush did.
I read several books at a time on my Kindle and for a little bit of “candy” to go along with the more serious books, I have the works of Mark Twain on my Kindle. I am currently reading A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court. Clemens was brilliant. The whole book is a parody on how people are taught to think illogically. Every page reminds me of the way that many liberals think.
HDB
September 26th, 2011
9:53 am
godless heathen
September 26th, 2011
9:46 am
The difference is in New York, there is a multimodal response to the transportation problem! In the city, there’s subway and bus traffic; to get into the city, there is regional bus and commuter rail! If you include AMTRAK in the mix, the NY commute isn’t as bad as ne thinks!(Been there…done it!) Atlanta..there’s no multimodal concept……
zeke
September 26th, 2011
9:53 am
The problem with traffic in Atlanta is the absolute stupidity of funneling all traffic into the perimeter area and into the city! If this proposed albatross of a transportation-code word for marta or subsidized mass transit-plan and tax were used ONLY TO ROUTE TRAFFIC NOT DESTINED FOR THE AREA INSIDE 285 AWAY FROM OR AROUND THE CORE AREA, IT WOULD BE AN ASSET, NOT THE BURDEN IT WILL BECOME! For $6 billion plus the $2 billion being spent on the ridiculous beltline, the OUTER PERIMETER AND/OR DIRECT BYPASS LIMITED INTERCHANGE ROUTES LIKE THE PROPOSED PAULDING BYPASS WOULD REDUCE TRAFFIC IMMENSELY! Contrary to the so called experts, ALL TRAFFIC NEED NOT BE FUNNELED INTO THE CITY! Just for a moment consider-traffic from Chattanooga area going to Savannah or Orlando not having to drive into the core Atlanta area. Trucks not on 285 that are going elsewhere! And many more intelligent viable options! Then by removing the hov and new toll lanes, the remaining traffic would be improved 16% to 25% immediately not costing a singe penny! IT IS TIME TO THINK INTELLIGENTLY NOT FEEL GOOD SOCIALIST ON THE TRANSPORTATION AGENDA!!!
HDB
September 26th, 2011
9:58 am
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
9:48 am
“Midori – Once again the argument for the massive spending of this administration is that Bush did it, but the reality is that while Bush did increase spending, it was nothing like what Obama has done.”
The question that many people FAIL to ask is “Why is such spending necessary?” When the economy faltered under Bush…and private industry continues to hoard money, what entity could RAPIDLY injact capital into the economy to arrest a recession OTHER than the government?? Answer: NONE!! Logic dictates that the government SPENDS when the economy declines….and cuts back when the economy is good!! Re-readng Carlos Casteneda’s “A Seperate Reality”; the title reminds me of the myopia suffered by conservatives…..
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
9:58 am
HDB
“It’s greener than more cars getting on the expressway!!”
Are you sure? I have no idea which is more efficient. It would be a great study to find our per person / per mile / per amount of power required to push a train vs the several autos that would carry the persons.
I’m sure with increased ridership the numbers would be more in favor of the trains, but considering averages deducted from certain lines, I’m not so sure. And if you took the power lost in transmitting the power to the trains, it would really hurt the trains’s figures.
I’ve been a train fan since I was a kid. I used to draw monorails in school,when I should have been listening to the teacher, and I know that it works for freight, but I’m not so sure with passengers. I’m sure if the “autos” were all SUVs, the trains would win every time.
willydoit?
September 26th, 2011
9:58 am
“That war has to be the biggest lame-brained idea in the history of this country”
You mean the war that the democrats voted to go into??
The cost of the war will eventually run its coarse, unlike public transportation that will be a drain on our wallets forever.
Jm
September 26th, 2011
9:59 am
Zeke so that paulding road would be free?
How so?
Bachmann says 0% tax rates make sense
But I don’t buy it
godless heathen
September 26th, 2011
10:01 am
HDB, But according to the news report I heard, sorry I can’t cite it, it doesn’t work very well in New York. If it doesn’t work there, why will it work here?
Jm
September 26th, 2011
10:02 am
Willydoit
Better to blow money in the US than Iraq
Or said another way, better to rebuild the US than Iraq
Fly-On-The-Wall
September 26th, 2011
10:02 am
The theme I keep reading from the conservative types here is that we can’t do this. We can’t do anything, we can’t spend money, we can’t let the government do anything (State or Federal).
With this way of thinking we would have never built the highway system we have or major dams, levies, bridges, etc. in the last 50 years all of which needs to be maintained and/or improved/replaced.
Business sure as heck isn’t going to build a dam like Hoover. Business would not build a bridge or all of the highway system we have in the country so the only organization that can build it is governement and given the scale of what is needed for the 21st century it must be the Federal government. There’s no way around it.
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
10:02 am
HDB
““Why is such spending necessary?”
Good question. Why are so many damned laws necessary? Its this idea that when a person goes to Washington, they should “get something done”. Well, legislators can do two things: pass bills and spend money.
In the bio of a Congressperson, you never see anyone saying “he didn’t do a damned thing”.
Maybe I’ll run on the platform of “I need a job and I don’t plan on doing anything, except play golf.” I’m run in a new Party called the 19th hole party.
Would you vote for me?
Jm
September 26th, 2011
10:03 am
Godless I’d say that’s overly simplistic
It does work in NY
willydoit?
September 26th, 2011
10:06 am
Jm
I’ll give you that one!! I would much rather spend our tax money in this country than to give it to another country that hates our Red White and Blue asses!!
Too bad that’ll never happen.
jewcowboy
September 26th, 2011
10:06 am
“The fact that the promise is written into law, ensuring that the tax could be renewed only if voters re-approve it come 2022, doesn’t change the reality that the public is deeply distrustful.”
Also as it is written, the tax would sunset as soon as the money is raised for the tax. So if the economy suddenly turns around and money is generated at a faster rate, you would see the tax end early.
Not that facts ever influenced voters…
Fly-On-The-Wall
September 26th, 2011
10:07 am
GLL – “Good question. Why are so many damned laws necessary?”
Greed, clear and simple. It must be fair and do its best to eliminate greed. Take away the laws & penalties and you get…..The Great Recession of 2008! Wall Street plus the Banks at their finest.
(ir)Rational
September 26th, 2011
10:09 am
jewcowboy – I’m sure the tax would end early. Just like the toll on 400 ended when it was supposed to. I think that is the problem. Nobody trusts the politicians to not figure out a way to keep the tax going to support their project of the week.
Common Sense
September 26th, 2011
10:09 am
“Good question. Why are so many damned laws necessary?”
Control.
Steve - USA
September 26th, 2011
10:10 am
We have plenty of laws & penalties, they don’t mean anything without enforcement though.
Granny Godzilla
September 26th, 2011
10:10 am
Perhaps we should just ask our governor to organize a day of prayer for reduced traffic.
Joe Mama
September 26th, 2011
10:11 am
cobbco — “$1 billion in new cobb county taxes to get a rail line from midtown to cumberland mall? No thanks–a total waste of money. If cumberland business owners want that rail line to get them more money, let them pay for it.”
It has nothing to do with Cumberland Mall shop proprietors getting something out of it. It has to do with the multi-line CCT bus station being at Cumberland Mall already. Putting a train station there would allow people to switch between the bus and the train, expanding the reach and utility of both.
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
September 26th, 2011
10:12 am
Trains are as efficient as cars? Someone actually said that! Why do you think car makers and even bus makers are going with ELECTRIC cars and buses. Who would complain about using too much electricity when that power comes from mostly water and wind and is much cleaner that gas. Just stupid.
(ir)Rational
September 26th, 2011
10:13 am
Fly-On-The-Wall – To answer your question about Hoover Dam, no private enterprise wouldn’t have built that (most likely), but I’m guessing they probably wouldn’t have built it because the government would have blocked them had they tried. Can you imagine that even being built by the government today? All the permits would hold it up for 15 or 20 years before it was allowed to be built, and then you would have the environmental agencies going out there trying to stop them from building it because there is an endangered (insert some insect here that no one has ever heard of or cares about) that lives only there.
Joe Mama
September 26th, 2011
10:14 am
GLL — “BTW, Marta trains use massive amounts of electricity which is produced by coal burning power stations, so when you ride a MARTA train, you are using a transportation system that is not quite as efficient as the coal burning stream trains of the 19th century.”
Check again. Many plants switch between burning coal in colder months and natural gas in warmer months. And there’s always nuclear, to which I’m not opposed.
godless heathen
September 26th, 2011
10:14 am
Well Jm, if New York has the worst commute in the country, I would say the model of high density living with lots of mass transit doesn’t work very well.
HDB
September 26th, 2011
10:15 am
godless heathen
September 26th, 2011
10:01 am
When you have a escalating populace attempting to move simultaneously with a FINITE amount of roads and transportation systems, breakdowns DO occur!! Can you imagine the NY gridlock with 20M CARS on the roads!!?? As I said…a paradigm shift is needed!!
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
10:02 am
Fly-On-The-Wall
September 26th, 2011
10:07 am
It’s not so much to prevent greed….but laws are written to protect the public from the unscrupulousness of Corporate America! Businesses can NOT police themselves! Note the banking industry, the S&L Crisis of the 80s…….
Don't Forget
September 26th, 2011
10:15 am
I was never a fan of the outer perimeter but the fact that all roads lead to Atlanta seems to be part of the problem. I know there’s been talk about an interstate from Chattanooga to Augusta. That would help some because there is no way to go East-West in North Georgia on a decent highway.
Jm
September 26th, 2011
10:15 am
We have forgotten a lesson known well by many of the founding fathers
Debt is bad
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
September 26th, 2011
10:17 am
Heathen
Have you ever been to New York. There are 10 million in the city and 20 in the metro area. There is the most congestion because there are the most people. Wouldn’t that make sense? The side walks are congested, streets are congested, everything is. It’s just a big, dense city with too many people.
Walk the Talk
September 26th, 2011
10:18 am
The politicians should just convert every lane on 75/85 and 20 through Atlanta into toll lanes with toll boothes set up at the intersections with 285.
mike "hussein" smith
September 26th, 2011
10:18 am
Folks, it’s time to quit electing yahoos to the Legislature. Sure, Bobby Paul might be fun to cut the cheese with, and wouldn’t mind a few days a week away from his wife, but unless he can spell, figure and think he’s not doing anybody any good. And if you know he’s an egg-filcher, why would you trust him with your future?
(ir)Rational
September 26th, 2011
10:19 am
Bryan – No, that doesn’t make sense, the congestion is only because the transit system obviously doesn’t work.
Greg
September 26th, 2011
10:20 am
The bottom line is…the railway should have been done years and years ago when the price tag was much less. If we keep saying no no no…(which is dumb as it will get done at some point) its going to only cost us much more in the future.
Why is it that Republicans always say no to projects that are needed (roadway, trains, people issues) but its okay to go bomb countries overseas and spend money to kill?
This is one problem I have with Republicans. Look at the bridge in Minnesota that fell…no one wanted to pay to fix that…look what happened.
No I am not a Dem or Repub. I am an Indy. I hate the Gov Spending just to spend…but at some point we are going to have to face the fact the GA is no longer this little farm state and that we have to do something about transportation and roadway issues.
BTW…no matter what a Repub says…the issues we face today are a result of the Bush regime. Obama inherited this mess. I am not enamored with many of the things that he has tried, but it is apparent that the Repubs are thinking about the next election, therefore, nothing gets done and the citizens stay jobless.
Two party system at its worst!!
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
September 26th, 2011
10:23 am
Bottom line is we need a solution. I’ve read multiple people complaining that MARTA doesn’t go where they need and too many bus transfers. I agree. Guess why it doesn’t though. Because the people in the suburbs were too scared of “crime” aka Black folks to expand. So now you have traffic everywhere and no options to get around now other than long bus routes into Atlanta and across the counties (Cobb and Gwinnett). They really don’t even have that.
Jm
September 26th, 2011
10:23 am
Godless 10:14
I’d suggest one has to think of roads and rail as a system that works together and as substitutes
If everone had to drive in NYC, the congestion would be 1000 times worse
People who have to drive will do so
If there is excess road capacity people will drive
When roads are at max capacity, people will elect to use transit IF it goes where they need to go
godless heathen
September 26th, 2011
10:25 am
Bryan: Yes, I’ve been to New York and it’s a mess. Why do liberals want Atlanta to be the same mess?
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
10:26 am
Fly-On-The-Wall, Common Sense, Steve – USA
Nah. I really do think that its a legacy thing. Everyone wants to make an impact.
And no supporters for the 19th hole party? Big contributors would get to join me on junkets to the world’s greatest golf courses. Even if you don’t play, they are at nice resorts. Government private jets!! Limos, we’ll be important!!
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
September 26th, 2011
10:28 am
(ir)Rational
Actually it makes perfect sense. This is what is wrong with people that don’t understand transit and don’t use it. It is not there to take all the people off the roads. It’s an option. I see I’m talking to a person that has never ridden NYC trains or buses. If you have they you would see how many people that move during the day. Is it going to take everyone off the streets, NO! Why because NYC is way too over populated.
I guess everyone should get on buses and trains so you and your people can have a clear shot everyday when you drive. Lets just get out of your way! That’s the only way transit will work… in your eyes.
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
September 26th, 2011
10:30 am
godless heathen
It’s a mess because it is far too populated. Not because of transit being there. What does expanding options to move around have to do with making Atlanta a mess?
Granny Godzilla
September 26th, 2011
10:30 am
Pardon me….Godless heathen
Please post link to report you claim to have read about NYC commute….
Seems you must have misread something or the study is outdated.
(chriminee, gotta double check absolutely everything these days)
ragnar danneskjold
September 26th, 2011
10:30 am
Good morning all. I will vote against the special sales tax. I have no objection to “user fees” – add whatever subsidies our overlords believe necessary to the per-use cost paid by the users. For MARTA, that means increased fares. For new roads, the traditional proxy is a higher gasoline tax. There is no rational reason that a purchase at Kohl’s should fund the transportation-predilections of unelected overlords.
Walk the Talk
September 26th, 2011
10:32 am
Bush did not spend any money while he was president. Bush just let the bills pile up on his desk, unpaid, and when Obama took office he had to decide whether to keep doing as Bush did and pile up the unpaid bills or start paying the bills. Obama decided to do the responsible thing and start paying the bills. The Republicans in Congress are mad at Obama because Obama 1) will not pay just the bills that they want paid and 2) will not take the money from payroll taxes to pay bills other than those associated with social security and medicare. The Republicans are also mad at Obama for occupying their White House amongst many other things.
Joe Mama
September 26th, 2011
10:32 am
G. Heathen — “Yes, I’ve been to New York and it’s a mess. Why do liberals want Atlanta to be the same mess?”
I lived and worked in NYC for 4 months some years ago. Knowing and understanding how the transit system works is *essential* to living there, unless you’re fabulously wealthy.
It may be a mess, but it *works*. And what we have in Atlanta is a non-working mess.
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
September 26th, 2011
10:33 am
These suburban counties want solutions. That is known. Why don’t you’ll pay a 1/2 cent tax and get MARTA rail service. Most don’t want MARTA only because of the buses. So keep your terrible bus systems and at least have enough sense to expand rail. You’ll pay 1/2 cent for 1/2 the services of MARTA.
Joe Mama
September 26th, 2011
10:33 am
R. Danneskjold — “I have no objection to “user fees” – add whatever subsidies our overlords believe necessary to the per-use cost paid by the users. For MARTA, that means increased fares. For new roads, the traditional proxy is a higher gasoline tax. There is no rational reason that a purchase at Kohl’s should fund the transportation-predilections of unelected overlords.”
I presume you are against the “Fair Tax” then, for the same reasons?
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
10:36 am
Bryan — MARTA supporter
“Who would complain about using too much electricity when that power comes from mostly water and wind and is much cleaner that gas.”
That would be great, but at this point, Georgia Power gets most of its Metro Atlanta power from coal.
ragnar danneskjold
September 26th, 2011
10:36 am
Good morning Joe @ 19:33, the Fair Tax is no less rational as a government funding device than is the income tax. In fact, it is superior – whereas the Income Tax levies against both portions of income (consumption expenditures and capital formation/savings) the Fair Tax levies only against the less destructive “consumption.” Tax policy is less a problem for me than overlord expenditures.
Greg
September 26th, 2011
10:37 am
Godless Heathen wrote:
“Yes, I’ve been to New York and it’s a mess. Why do liberals want Atlanta to be the same mess?”
First…you are talking about NYC…not New York as a whole. The problem with NYC is simple..too many people. The rail system is not the problem.
Atlanta will never be a NYC. NYC is a financial mecca for the USA. There are 8 million people living in NYC. There are slightly more than 9 million people in all of Georgia.
Atlanta has 425 thousand people. It will never be an NYC.
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
September 26th, 2011
10:38 am
Until people support and actually pay into MARTA like they should it is not going to go everywhere. It is going to continue to have a lot of long bus routes versus train stations. Now if there were train stations crossed thru the region and it still didn’t work then these folks would have a legit argument.
You even read some of the blogs and they say “MARTA works if it is near you and goes where you need it and doesn’t when it’s not and doesn’t go.” What does that say…. EXPAND MARTA so it will be more places and it will work for more people… duh!
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
10:38 am
Walk the Talk
“Obama decided to do the responsible thing and start paying the bills.”
What? When did this happen? He has borrowed more from China and printed unsupported currency. Our debt has skyrocketed under Obama.
ragnar danneskjold
September 26th, 2011
10:38 am
Dear Joe @ 10:33, to finish the thought, “user fees” are superior to even the Fair Tax, as each is charged only for that portion of services obtained.
Walk the Talk
September 26th, 2011
10:39 am
We need a special off-road gasoline if gasoline tax is to be used to fund highways. Also, if gasoline tax is to be used for roads, then it should be used for all roads all the way up to my driveway too instead of just for certain people’s roads. I’m tired of county commissioners getting their roads paved while others have to do without. Roads. They’re not just for politicians any more. Install meters in all vehicles and then collect a tax based on the total mileage on the vehicle on a monthly basis or else the vehicle shuts down when you try to operate it on a road.
(ir)Rational
September 26th, 2011
10:39 am
Bryan – I’m guessing you missed the eye roll at the end of my last post?
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
10:41 am
Bryan — MARTA supporter
So where are the plans to expand Marta in the city? There are none. There are slivers of rail lines that go to specific areas. They want to expand by putting slivers further out.
I wish it weren’t true, but riding a train to a location that is miles from your destination simply doesn’t work.
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
September 26th, 2011
10:41 am
Good little liberal
Even is that is true it’s still better to have electric trains and hybrid buses on the roads than a bunch of cars that use only gas. Better for the environment and gets people off the roads.
Walk the Talk
September 26th, 2011
10:41 am
Our debt has skyrocketed under Obama.
Our debt ceiling was approved by the Republican majority in Congress. Obama had no authority to borrow and spend that money without their approval.
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
10:43 am
Walk The Talk
“They’re not just for politicians any more. Install meters in all vehicles and then collect a tax based on the total mileage on the vehicle on a monthly basis or else the vehicle shuts down when you try to operate it on a road.”
That’s what we need. more bureaucrats running our lives.
Brosephus™ - Browning America Since 1973
September 26th, 2011
10:43 am
After reading the comments here, I’m not too shocked by what I’ve read. That said, I’m a definite No vote for this plan as it stands today. Not because of some adverse reaction to taxes, but because I don’t think the plan is focusing on what needs to be done for the future and is nothing but another band-aid for today’s problems.
The only plan I’ll vote yes for will extend rail at least 20 miles beyond the perimeter in all directions where there are major corridors. The rail will also have to connect all major tourist attractions and shopping locations in the metro area. Connecting those two will give tourists, who are in downtown Atlanta, access to all tourist attractions and major shopping areas to spend more money thereby helping our local economy.
Extending the rails at least 20 miles out will connect people out as far Douglasville, Newnan, McDonough, Covington, Buford, Cumming, and Acworth to rail lines into the city. If the rail lines are smoothed out to allow for increased speeds outside the perimeter, that will get more people to ride into the city and free up highway space.
Until metro area leadership shows some long-term thought, I’m not voting for anything.
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
10:44 am
Walk the Talk
Obama had a Democratic Majority in both houses for his first two years.
Remember?
Peadawg
September 26th, 2011
10:45 am
“Our debt ceiling was approved by the Republican majority in Congress. ”
The GOP had the majority in Congress from 2008-2010? Where the hell have I been the past 3 years?
Walk the Talk
September 26th, 2011
10:45 am
GLL,
The latest debt ceiling hike was approved by a Republican majority Congress. Remember?
mike "hussein" smith
September 26th, 2011
10:47 am
Jm sez: “We have forgotten a lesson known well by many of the founding fathers. Debt is bad” I say: WHAT?? I know debt is bad, too, but it’s necessary because I don’t want to live under a bridge — or or wake up at dawn so I can idle my car on I-85. The founding fathers went into debt to fight the revolution, borrowing from France and other European nations. It took over 4 decades before monetary debts were paid off, under Democrat Andrew Jackson. But the FFs paid nothing for use of the French military. That US debt wasn’t repaid until GIs were sent to fight in World War I, by Democrat Woodrow Wilson.
Shawny
September 26th, 2011
10:47 am
The HOT lane on I-85 and the future HOT lane up I-75 will allow the state to reap MILLIONS in revenue.
Why should we vote to tax ourselves even more when they have these scams to generate revenue?
There is no traffic plan. Just a series of bandaids, and most of them are no good. Where are all the right hand turn lanes?
Where are all the cloverleafs and “jug handles”? No, we just see a couple of cars backed up at an intersection and slap in another traffic light which does the opposite in the overall scheme.
Peadawg
September 26th, 2011
10:48 am
“The latest debt ceiling hike was approved by a Republican majority Congress. Remember?” – I didn’t know the GOP had a majority in the Senate.
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
10:48 am
Everyone take a few seconds and take a look at this map: http://www.mta.info/nyct/maps/submap.htm
Its the NYC subway map. It covers the city. That’s why it works.
Now look at this map: http://itsmarta.com/rail-schedules-or-route.aspx
See the difference? If MARTA is serious about growing, MAKE THE TRAIN SERVICE SERVICE ATLANTA!!!!!!
jm
September 26th, 2011
10:49 am
Regulation run amok
A holy amen for Susan Collins
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904194604576583082888335542.html?grcc=grdt&mod=WSJ_hps_sections_opinion
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
10:50 am
Walk the Talk
A Republican House, not Congress. Congress means both the Senate and the House of Representatives.
I’m sure you don’t remember that.
Joe Mama
September 26th, 2011
10:51 am
R. Danneskjold — “the Fair Tax levies only against the less destructive “consumption.” Tax policy is less a problem for me than overlord expenditures.”
And yet in your previous post, you opine that
“There is no rational reason that a purchase at Kohl’s should fund the transportation-predilections of unelected overlords.”
These two statements seem to be in disagreement with each other. Can you elaborate, please, and thereby help me understand your position better?
HDB
September 26th, 2011
10:51 am
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
10:41 am
The problem is the mentalities of the regional governments (nee POLITICIANS!) in relationship to mass transit! In the original design of the MARTA rail, the East/West line traversed from Covington to Douglasville, the North/South Line from Forsyth County to Henry County, the Northeast/Southwest Line from Hall County to Fayetteville…and spur lines from Downtown to Smyrna(the Proctor Creek line)….and Emory/Tucker to Downtown!! The municipalities’ desires to keep out the “undesirables” (i.e., black people) out of the suburbs kepp full implementation of the MARTA design…as it ws a regional view of traffic…and this ws in the SEVENTIES!! The planners HAD a vision; the POLITICIANS didn’t!!
Joe Mama
September 26th, 2011
10:54 am
GLL — “See the difference? If MARTA is serious about growing, MAKE THE TRAIN SERVICE SERVICE ATLANTA!!!!!!”
On this point, sir, we appear to be in agreement.
I seem to see people here saying ‘we don’t want the train anywhere near my house’ and others (or perhaps the same folks) saying ‘damn thing doesn’t come anywhere close to my house, so it’s useless to me.’
One leads to the other. If you want the benefit of it, you have to be prepared for the downside of it.
Why Can't Everyone Just Get In Line?
September 26th, 2011
10:54 am
If we would all simply move into centralized living quarters, then everything would work out just dandy. We could all work at the factories, take the mass transit, wear the same uniforms, eat what they tell us to eat, play approved games, think appropriate thoughts, then the liberals would be happy. What’s the matter with people? Let’s erase those that don’t think like we want them to think. Isn’t that the ultimate goal? MARTA has been such a wonderful example of how things should work, if we could only tax more!!!
Aquagirl
September 26th, 2011
10:56 am
Why is everyone arguing about New York City? Godless Heathen “remembers” something that he/she can’t find again and it’s accepted as fact, triggering attempts to defend NYC’s transit system. WTF?
Reading these posts is like watching a Republican debate.
carlosgvv
September 26th, 2011
10:56 am
Fly-On-The-Wall – 9:05
You are absolutely correct about the Tea Party. As for your own company and all those job cuts, I’d be willing to bet that there is no new hiring and all of you have more and more work piled upon you and have been told that if you can’t cut it, there are no shortages of people willing to replace you. Am I right?
Walk the Talk
September 26th, 2011
10:56 am
The Budget Control Act of 2011 is the most recent legislation that increased the debt ceiling and it was indeed approved by the Republican majority Congress in August of 2011. The Democrats were clearly not the majority party in Congress in August of 2011.
Joe Mama
September 26th, 2011
10:57 am
WCEJGIL — “If we would all simply move into centralized living quarters, then everything would work out just dandy.”
It’s called arcology. Maybe you’ve played Sim City?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcology
“We could all work at the factories, take the mass transit, wear the same uniforms, eat what they tell us to eat, play approved games, think appropriate thoughts, then the liberals would be happy.”
I’m a liberal and I don’t think that for a moment.
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
September 26th, 2011
10:57 am
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
10:41 am
Guess why there are no plans. Because instead of focusing on plans like th at to have rail to places like North Druid Hills, Kirkwood, Turner Field, West Midtown, Cambellton, Howell Mill/Northside, etc is because we have to focus on building lines that should have already been here if the people would have look at what the future would be versus being worried about “crime”. There would already be MARTA atleast to Marietta. Rail would already be up to Gwinnett Place. Already to Jonesboro in Clayton. We would be working on intown stations and lines going across northern 285. All the things that people want but can’t get because we are so far behind on what we should already have.
ken
September 26th, 2011
10:58 am
A tax never goes down or away
Peadawg
September 26th, 2011
10:59 am
“The Democrats were clearly not the majority party in Congress in August of 2011.”
I missed where the GOP held the majority in BOTH parts of Congress. When did they take the majority in the Senate, Walk the Talk?
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
11:00 am
HDB
Look at the NYC subway map and then look at the MARTA map in my post at 10:48. Marta trains are a joke. They are designed more like AMTRAK than like a metro trains system. MARTA isn’t successful because people from Douglasville don’t ride it. It’s not successful because people in downtown Atlanta don’t ride it.
You can call it a fight against Black People, but it is the crime around the MARTA stations that has kept it out of many areas. Are the people committing those crimes Black? Are they riding in from less privileged areas to steal and then jump on the bus and be gone?
That’s the perception.
But the reality is that if people were riding in from less privileged White areas, stealing and jumping on the trains to make a hasty escape, the trains would be no more attractive.
Shawny
September 26th, 2011
11:00 am
ok, here we go. HERE is why you should vote not NO on this debacle:
1 – $11M for improvements at McCollum airfield in Kennesaw. Cobb country residents, do you want the airfield expanded? I am betting not.
2 – Over $16M for improvements at Charlie Brown airport off of Fulton Ind. Does anyone really use that airport? I don’t know one individual that has ever flown out of there.
3 – $23M in improvements for bicycle and pedestrian improvements on Stone Mtn Lithonia Rd. Not improvements for traffic mind you, but bikes and people to walk. No parks around? Seriously?
4 – $26M in Roosevelt Hwy bike and ped improvements? Seriously?
5 – $38 million to relocate an Amtrak station? Is that boondoggle still afloat?
6 – $180M for funding EXISTING GRTA bus service? Really? It doesn’t collect enough revenue to support itself?
7 – $839M, yes, a whopping $839M to extend a Marta rail line to SR140. Holey Smokes! Will there be any payback for that?
stands for decibels
September 26th, 2011
11:00 am
Somewhat on-topic:
There’s a wee flaw in designing an economy which requires people to spend a huge amount of money to purchase and maintain a giant metal box in order to be able to drive to minimum wage jobs.
see also:
http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/130541748.html
Peter ( the first )
September 26th, 2011
11:00 am
MountainMan – I agree that parking prices in Atlanta are far too low to discourage driving into the city. It will take a while but fuel prices will be a factor in the future, driving communters to public transit.
Fly-On-The-Wall
September 26th, 2011
11:01 am
(ir)Rational – your 10:13 response to my ‘big projects’ question is a deflection at best. Regardless of the regulations or even if they were removed no business would build the interstate hwy system. It just won’t happen without the Federal government. Therefore, to compete in the 21st century the Federal government MUST spend money (it doesn’t have) to allow business to compete in the global market place.
stands for decibels
September 26th, 2011
11:02 am
Bros @ 10.43, I dunno. While I hear you loud and clear, I think you’re veering into the sort of thought that has people repeating the maxim that “the perfect is the enemy of the good.”
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
11:03 am
Bryan — MARTA supporter
Look at the maps of NYC and of Atlanta that I posted at 10:48. The people in Marietta are not the reason why MARTA loses a fortune. The train lines simply go nowhere IN the city.
Everyone looks at MARTA as bringing people to the city. The problem is that unless you work on Memorial drive or downtown, it’s useless.
stands for decibels
September 26th, 2011
11:04 am
Really? It doesn’t collect enough revenue to support itself?
oh fercryinoutloud.
stands for decibels
September 26th, 2011
11:06 am
This is where I challenge our naysayers who base their opposition to subsidizing mass transit on the rather utopian notion that mass transit somehow shouldn’t need subsidy–
where on the planet, that you would even consider livable, does the public *not* subsidize mass transit?
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
September 26th, 2011
11:06 am
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
10:48 am
I saw this and you are 100% right on this one. Again, you want service like that you have to pay for it. But how with no state support for expanding and not even support from the surrounding counties to invest into the system. Because of “crime” and because counties like Gwinnett and Cobb are going to complain about not having their fair share. Every county is going to want stations and trains criss crossing their counties even though most aren’t going to need more than one line to bring them into the city. Maybe one cross line (light rail possibly) that connects the major areas of the county and also connects to the main trunk line (heavy rail) to bring people into Atlanta.
Brosephus™ - Browning America Since 1973
September 26th, 2011
11:07 am
dB
Sounds like another episode of cut service and then complain because it doesn’t provide service.
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
11:08 am
MARTA IS NOT AMTRAK
Everybody join in!!
MARTA IS NOT AMTRAK
MARTA IS NOT AMTRAK
MARTA IS NOT AMTRAK
Say it with me
MARTA IS NOT AMTRAK
MARTA IS NOT AMTRAK
MARTA IS NOT AMTRAK
We don’t need transportation from outside the perimeter until we get the train lines working inside the city. Instead of spending billion to lay miles of tracks to cities so people can ride into the city on Sunday Afternoon to watch the Falcons, the city needs a working system that accesses other parts of the city than downtown and Memorial drive.
Joe Mama
September 26th, 2011
11:09 am
Shawny — “1 – $11M for improvements at McCollum airfield in Kennesaw. Cobb country residents, do you want the airfield expanded? I am betting not.”
I do.
“2 – Over $16M for improvements at Charlie Brown airport off of Fulton Ind. Does anyone really use that airport? I don’t know one individual that has ever flown out of there.”
Pleased to meet you. I have.
“3 – $23M in improvements for bicycle and pedestrian improvements on Stone Mtn Lithonia Rd. Not improvements for traffic mind you, but bikes and people to walk. No parks around? Seriously?”
Ever heard of the Silver Comet Trail?
“4 – $26M in Roosevelt Hwy bike and ped improvements? Seriously?”
Seriously. Did you have a substantive criticism?
“5 – $38 million to relocate an Amtrak station? Is that boondoggle still afloat?”
What boondoggle is that?
“6 – $180M for funding EXISTING GRTA bus service? Really? It doesn’t collect enough revenue to support itself?”
Does I-75 support itself? Does I-85? How about the Perimeter? Do any of those support themselves, or are tax receipts used for maintenance and upkeep on those roads?
“7 – $839M, yes, a whopping $839M to extend a Marta rail line to SR140. Holey Smokes! Will there be any payback for that?”
Are you saying that you expect all transportation expenditures to have a *direct* payback? How about in facilitating trade and business? How about in making it possible for trade and business to be physically transacted?
Greg
September 26th, 2011
11:10 am
Shawny Wrote:
“The HOT lane on I-85 and the future HOT lane up I-75 will allow the state to reap MILLIONS in revenue.
Why should we vote to tax ourselves even more when they have these scams to generate revenue?”
I hope that this is sarcasm…because this is not going to happen. At 25 dollars per round trip during a recession (20 work days per month = $500) there will only be a few people traveling in the HOT Lanes…therefore this is another waste of taxpayer money.
Brosephus™ - Browning America Since 1973
September 26th, 2011
11:11 am
dB @ 11:02
I’d hate to do that, but somebody has to try to inject common sense and logic into the debate. Nobody thinks about tourism when talking about this project. How is paving a road in Cobb or Henry Co going to help tourism? If we make it to where tourists can be more mobile, then they’re likely to spend more money. That way, people can quit b*tching because then out-of-towners are helping support the system just as much as we are.
Atlanta’s trying it’s best to be a top convention getter. Why would I put a convention here and have my people locked into downtown when I can go somewhere else where they are more mobile and can enjoy themselves more?
DB - A Marta Rider
September 26th, 2011
11:12 am
For those comparing New York and Atlanta commutes, you will find this report from the Brookings Institute interesting…. A typical Atlanta residents carbon footprint is almost TWICE that of a New York Resident. (NY = 1.4 per capita metric ton vs. ATL = 2.68 per capita metric ton)
Large metropolitan areas offer greater energy and carbon efficiency than non metropolitan areas. The 100 largest metro areas in the United States emitted 56% of U.S. carbon emissions from highway transportation and residential buildings in 2005. Metropolitan residents had a smaller carbon footprint than the average American (2.24 metric tons versus 2.60 metric tons). This is due primarily because metro dwellers travel less by car and use less electricity.
http://green.wikia.com/wiki/Carbon_Footprint_of_American_Cities
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
11:13 am
Bryan — MARTA supporter
Everyone here is saying that it’s the responsibility of the outer counties to start to love MARTA. But the bad idea of running one line into a huge area didn’t work in Atlanta and it won’t work in Cobb county. We need to “grid” the city with train service.
Actually, I don’t live there any more so me and my old Chevy is the only alternative I have.
HDB
September 26th, 2011
11:14 am
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
11:00 am
I was speaking of the mentality of the politicians here in the region when MARTA was FIRST developed…in the 70s….not currently!! The problem is that PERCEPTION differs from REALITY!! Not all MARTA stations would be considered “high crime” locations…Doraville, Chamblee, Airport, HE Holmes, Buckhead, Lindbergh…..
Note my 10:51 as to the ORIGINAL plans and the scope of MARTA….the buses were to be the FEEDERS to the expansive rail line!! The ORIGINAL design of MARTA was intended to decrease the auto traffic from the THREE expressways…..and the buses were the crosstown movers and feeders into the rail!! We have to go BACK to the future……
Finn McCool
September 26th, 2011
11:15 am
Who needs the Fairness Act? We have other ways to bring down the pseudo “news” organizations….mwuahahahahahahahaha!!
The News Corp phone-hacking scandal is still generating headlines in the UK. (It is widely referred to as the “phone-hacking scandal,” though it may more accurately be described as a “police bribery, voicemail-listening, privacy-invading, and lying-to-Parliament scandal.”) The Guardian says today that it may soon spread to America. The lawyer representing the family of one of the murder victims whose voicemail was listened to by News of the World reporters is looking to launch a class action suit against Rupert and James Murdoch in the US.
Brosephus™ - Browning America Since 1973
September 26th, 2011
11:19 am
GLL
Have you looked at the number of tags in the MARTA parking lots that do not belong to Fulton/Dekalb? There are thousands who can benefit directly simply by extending the rails outward. Are you saying that MARTA should neglect damn near guaranteed increases in ridership just so you can ride the train to a bar or something?
Jm
September 26th, 2011
11:19 am
Made a contribution to Romney…..
stands for decibels
September 26th, 2011
11:19 am
It is widely referred to as the “phone-hacking scandal,” though it may more accurately be described as a “police bribery, voicemail-listening, privacy-invading, and lying-to-Parliament scandal.”
veering further off-topic with you, I want to direct all interested folks to a wonderful segment that On the Media broadcast this weekend, about the origins/evolution of the term “hack.”
http://www.onthemedia.org/blogs/on-the-media/2011/sep/22/jargon-file/
ragnar danneskjold
September 26th, 2011
11:19 am
Dear jm @ 10:49, good morning, agreed, I was shocked. While she does not pursue the idea to its logical end, and her half-step would have little of the desired effect, she demonstrates the first glint of insight by a leftist.
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
11:20 am
HDB
I agree that the original plans wold have worked. But look at what they keep doing. MARTA and apparently most posters here want MARTA to be AMTRAK. It simply ain’t. It is a metro rail service. The NYC map covers a smaller area than the Atlanta Perimeter, but anywhere you go in New York, there is a rail service a few blocks away.
Buses are awful. They run late and they take forever to get anywhere. Get the rails working and you have the answer.
Once Atlanta starts to understand what the rail is actually for, they can start to build a real commuter system.
HDB
September 26th, 2011
11:20 am
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
11:03 am
At the time that MARTA was laying its rail tracks, it was CHEAPER for the system to purchase land for track from Seaboard Railroad which ran parallel to the train tracks! Because the initial iteration of MARTA focused on HEAVY rail, the purchase of land from Seaboard was the least expensive choice!! NOW, in order to address the transportation needs of the region, we have to look a heavy AND LIGHT rail along with integrating the bus systems!!
jaystar
September 26th, 2011
11:21 am
Shawny if you actually looked at the list you would see that your argument against it doesn’t make sense. Most of the projects you list aren’t actually on the list.
http://www.atlantaregionalroundtable.com/documents/Constrained_Draft_Final_List.pdf
stands for decibels
September 26th, 2011
11:21 am
Made a contribution to Romney…..
Do they send you a set of “I [heart] Mittens” magic underpants at, say, the 100 dollar level?
‘cuz that’d be kind of cool.
Fulton County
September 26th, 2011
11:21 am
The main thing we are we willing to pay for is an extension of the Red Line to Holcomb Bridge and beyond. That didn’t make the list. We vote no.
Normal
September 26th, 2011
11:22 am
jm,
“Made a contribution to Romney…”
Good for you! Of them all, he seems the most sane…
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
September 26th, 2011
11:23 am
Well, up here in Forsyth County most of us are against fancy trains so a few hippies and homos and Those People can get to where they want to go. Let them buy pickups like the rest of us. Besides, we don’t need to make it easier for thiefs to come out of downtown Atlanta and steal our stuff and haul it back by train. All you people in favor of trains are going to be mighty sorry when you can’t even move in a rail car without bumping into a 52″ flat screen.
I say widen the roads—heck, pave the whole state with concrete if you need to—and forget about this mass transit. They’ll just lie to you about what they’re going to do with your tax money anyway. Just ask any of those GA 400 commuters how they feel when they toss 50 cents of hard-earned money into a bin that was suppose to be removed two years ago but will be there long after they’re dead. Besides, you know good and well the train stations ain’t going to be within 10 miles of where you live. People were conned by MARTA but they ain’t going to be conned again.
If God had of meant for you to ride a train to work He wouldn’t of allowed cars and trucks to be invented and sold.
That’s my opinion and it’s very true. Have a good work week everybody and don’t try and toss plug quarters into one of them bins.
Intowner
September 26th, 2011
11:23 am
Bryan — MARTA supporter
September 26th, 2011
10:57 am
Guess why there are no plans. Because instead of focusing on plans like th at to have rail to places like North Druid Hills, Kirkwood, Turner Field, West Midtown, Cambellton, Howell Mill/Northside, etc is because we have to focus on building lines that should have already been here if the people would have look at what the future would be versus being worried about “crime”. There would already be MARTA atleast to Marietta. Rail would already be up to Gwinnett Place.
And think about how much cheaper it would have been to develop back in the 1970s or 1980s rather than today. Had our leaders had foresight and vision, the Atlanta metro area could already have a world-class transportation system.
Granny Godzilla
September 26th, 2011
11:25 am
Contribution to Romney?
Made me think about his last run for the White House. I understand he spent upwards of 40 million of his own money in 2008.
Has he showed the same confidence in his own campaign this time?
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
September 26th, 2011
11:25 am
MARTA not going to expand until people get about and understand that it has to be paid for to expand. Also the preceptions of increased crime with transit has to go too. People want more stations in the city which I completely agree with. But because of the lack of vision by suburban counties in the 70s we are now having to build a stage of the rail line that should be there. We should be looking at lines from Avondale to Stone Mtn, from Bankhead to West Midtown to Moores Mill and Syrmna. From East Lake to Emory to Tucker. Lindberg to Emory is the only line that falls into the “intown” category. What about from Hamilton Holmes to Fulton Ind Blvd. What about a branch line to Kirkwood and Horesa Drive. What about the Turner Field line and expand it to Grant Park, East Atlanta then to I-20 and follow it to Chandler Rd then to Conyers? Trains from Cumberland to Doraville. We should already have trains from Town Center in Cobb to downtown and Gwinnett Place to downtown and from Jonesboro to downtown.
HDB
September 26th, 2011
11:26 am
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
11:20 am
I don’t think that most here want MARTA to parallel AMTRAK, but the resistance to the original MARTA design is the primary reason we are where we are NOW!! Now in order to reach the original design will cost MORE….
What also has to be done is to allow MARTA to spend more of its subsidy on maintenance….the only way that happens is a CHANGE in STATE LAW…..
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
September 26th, 2011
11:28 am
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
11:13 am
I completely agree but we don’t need “grid” service in places like Cobb and Gwinnett. A main line into the city and a line that connects some of the major areas in that county, even if it was something like a fixed guideway bus rapid transit
allen981
September 26th, 2011
11:33 am
Just got back from 2 weeks in Europe, the ‘transit’ capital of the world. Here are a few facts:
In London, a single day roundtrip on a 20-mile commute each way at rush hour will cost you $60 (that’s right) with another $30 in parking.
Trains in Europe aren’t cheap; the TGV high speed train from London to Paris runs about $400 in economy, $150 more in business. 3 hour trip time. A flight from close in Luton airport to Orly: $150 roundtrip, with several flights a day offered.
90 minute train ride from Nancy, France to Paris, round trip: $200. Time to make the same trip in a car: 60 minutes, at less than half the cost.
Watch what we create folks; we need electric cars that perform, natural gas fueled vehicles that don’t pollute (it works). Transit in any form is outrageously expensive and nowhere in the world do trains pay for themselves.
We are a nation of freedom loving people, not a bunch of cattle to be herded about as the government tells us to. We have land – plenty of land – to expand as Americans have always done.
I’m sure in the 1850s some New York Times writer was complaining about the push West, and how we all ought to live in the city, use a stage coach/trolley to get to work, and let the government decide where we live.
Folks, we’ve tried trains, and the service died. It is old, outdated technology at any speed. Changing the way we drive, and maximizing the full value of our aviation capability, is the way forward.
Unless this tax adds roads and incentives for alternative fuel vehicles, I will never vote for it.
Adam
September 26th, 2011
11:33 am
Ridiculous to assume people won’t do bus transfers. They will, if they have no other choice or if the metro is a better cost effective option. Even if the time it take out of their day is a 2-3 hour two-way commute. People in other cities and countries do this all the time. And guess what? They tend to do things like, oh, I don’t know, READ while on the bus, making them even smarter.
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
September 26th, 2011
11:33 am
Intowner
September 26th, 2011
11:23 am
Exactly! Now we are trying to do alternatives like light rail and trams that are too slow and, to me cause more traffic because they run on the streets. We could have had a great rail system and Atlanta would probably look a lot more dense than it is now.
I hope we get it right this time.
WOODSTOCK MIKE
September 26th, 2011
11:34 am
“I support public transit (MARTA) but, sadly, it’s not likely to happen in my lifetime
Past lack of foresight by Georgia “leadership” has cost the state in so many areas. (I look forward to going home when I retire.)”
And we look forward to you leaving when you retire…
Jm
September 26th, 2011
11:34 am
Sfd
um, no. But that was really funny
Granny I have no idea and I don’t care
Adam
September 26th, 2011
11:34 am
Also it’s good to know people in general are finally getting the message that “OMG TAX IS BAD” is a ridiculous and tired battle cry of old ornery people.
ryan
September 26th, 2011
11:37 am
Will never pass and I take the CCT express bus from Acworth to downtown everyday. Marta just raised their monthly pass to like $98 from 60 something, all the while cutting service constantly. co-workers are already talking about car pooling rather than keep paying for Marta. Why would I vote for a .01 sales tax, that will take 10 years to put in a light rail line from Cumberland to Downtown, when I live in Acworth. By the time you get to Cumberland, there’s no more traffic, why would you stop? Put in a cheap HOV lane, that people will actually use, and go from there on expanding.
Kamchak
September 26th, 2011
11:38 am
MARTA really isn’t a viable alternative as a daily commute for me, but as an infrequent user to the Dome or the airport it was a convenience — at one time. A trip to Indian Creek station took only 7-10 minutes (depending on traffic and signals), you could put quarters in the turnstile and it seemed there was never more than a 5 minute wait for a departing train. Get to Five Points and not wait for more than 5 minutes for a train to the airport.
Now it’s standing in line for fare cards from machines that may or may not work and longer wait times for departing trains. What used to be a 30-35 minute trip to the airport turned into 50 minutes to an hour.
Too much of a pain-in-the-ass.
getalife
September 26th, 2011
11:43 am
“THE GREAT IRAQ GIVEAWAY:
U.S. Handing Over Billions In Bases And Equipment To Avoid Shipping Home ”
Where are the suddenly fiscal cons on military waste?
javon
September 26th, 2011
11:43 am
obama needs 4 more years to get all the funding for these rail lines—taxes need to go way up on rich people and big corporations to pay for all these billions needed.
Walk the Talk
September 26th, 2011
11:45 am
Republicans have decided to run on the OMG Tax is Bad ticket so they should have to live with it. Demand more tax cuts and demand an elimination of government jobs and government revenues on a year over year basis as verification. Otherwise, they’ll just shift the tax burden somewhere else and try to hide it from you. Never trust a Republican. Do not Trust AND Verify. It is the only way.
Steve - USA
September 26th, 2011
11:45 am
Redneck@11:23 Your “h” comment is totally unacceptable. I would report you if they didn’t require you to fill out some form.
I hope Jay pulls the plug on you.
Jay
September 26th, 2011
11:46 am
sheets
Fly-On-The-Wall
September 26th, 2011
11:46 am
I like what San Diego has done with the red trolly system. When I lived in So Cal, I loved it when I went to visit friends there. Something like that could work here, small footprint and can be built to go where we need it to.
regressive tax
September 26th, 2011
11:47 am
the fair tax is regressive—high income people will end up paying a very small % of their income in taxes, while moderate income individuals will pay much more.
BLAH! BLAH! BLAH!
September 26th, 2011
11:48 am
Redneck Convert,
You are truly the epitome of an idiot (no pun intended)… Stay within your pathetic cave, you are why so many continue to assume that the South is loaded with pathetic hicks and inbreds….
Brosephus™ - Browning America Since 1973
September 26th, 2011
11:48 am
Now it’s standing in line for fare cards from machines that may or may not work and longer wait times for departing trains. What used to be a 30-35 minute trip to the airport turned into 50 minutes to an hour.
Too much of a pain-in-the-ass.
This has been another episode of cut service to make sure it does not function. This message was brought to you in part by Bookman’s Thread Drift™ brand de-railer. “When you need your thread to change topics quickly, there’s no better product available.”
**The spokesperson is not a paid endorser of Bookman Thread Drift™ or Cox Enterprises. The opinion expressed is solely that of the person and does not reflect upon Cox Enterprises and/or J Bookman.**
Keep Up the Good Fight!
September 26th, 2011
11:49 am
Simply put, MARTA as it currently exists is not the “example” of a “perfect transportation model”. It is a politically and financially strapped program. It’s not a failure…it is an example of some of the right answers being limited and reduced by other political forces with an agenda to destroy it. It is part of the failure of the “goverment needs to get out of the way” Reagan legacy instead of using government to bring technology and innovation leadership.
It however is the bones of a system that can be built into a vibrant system that collects commuters and coordinates with local adjacent systems and can provide a signifant part of public transportation in a proper system. Its a shame that our politicians have not done more for so long.
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
11:50 am
HDB
Good talking to you as usual. I think we are in agreement that MARTA has a lot of potential, but it just seems to always be going in the wrong directions. I love the trains, I just wish I could have used them more when I lived there.
Up here in the sticks, my big traffic problem is when Annie Mae is driving her new Nissan Maxima down the two lane highway at a blinding 18 mph and I’m late for a meeting. The 5 PM traffic is horrible. Sometimes five or six cars will be in front of me, trying to turn left at the four lane. It’s a friggin’ nightmare.
I know that the new Maxima doesn’t make sen
I’ve got an intern coming in today and I’ll need to find stuff for him to do. Have a good one.
Adam
September 26th, 2011
11:52 am
Side note: Republican debate rules:
1) Ask softball questions to frontrunners, make the second and third tier candidates answer the tough ones.
Have no specific job creation plans unless it involves lowering taxes, and make sure to make the false claim that Obama has created ZERO jobs.
2) As a participant, say “Ronald Reagan” early and often.
3) Try not to diss the other candidates, but if you must, make sure it’s everybody against the frontrunner.
4) Diss Obama as much as possible, in whatever ways possible. Bonus points for the use of the term “Obamacare”
5) Get bonus points every time you mention abolishing a federal department or state’s rights/10th Amendment.
6) Get bonus points for reducing taxes, super extra bonus points for eliminating taxes.
7) Avoid talking about National Security at all costs
9) Bonus points for any dissing of Obama not mentioned above.
Extra credit) Discover a new way to get the audience to act like they are in the audience of the Roman Coliseum.
FSG
September 26th, 2011
11:52 am
Noted comment from a ‘retired person’ in the article connected to this editorial – doesn’t want ‘taxes raised to pay for transportation or roadways’.
Things retired people don’t care about:
- Schools, Transit, Sidewalks, Libraries, Children, and the future in general; it’s old people who let politicians get away with ‘Social Security is fixed – it doesn’t run out of money until 2036!’
Yet they control politics because they have nothing better to do. And they need to make sure that my taxes pay for their ‘free’ medicine, their ability to sit in doctors offices to visit with their friends, and buys them a scooter.
Yes, I’m slandering them, and I love my parents. But can we please set a maximum voting age?
AngryRedMarsWoman
September 26th, 2011
12:01 pm
“so people can ride into the city on Sunday Afternoon to watch the Falcons”
I had to LOL at that one. Have you been to a Falcons game? I have been to a few and although they were all bad experiences the last one that involved not only the Falcon thug-fans but also the Saints thug-fans (one of whom threatened to “smash” a 10 year-old in my group from Roswell youth football for tripping in the aisle and dropping some popcorn on his lap) sealed the deal for me…there is not enough money in the world to pay me to attend a Falcons game again. How many folks from “points North” do you think are taking MARTA (or any other means of transportation) to a Falcons game?
Intowner
September 26th, 2011
12:06 pm
Steve – USA
September 26th, 2011
11:45 am
Redneck@11:23 Your “h” comment is totally unacceptable. I would report you if they didn’t require you to fill out some form.
I hope Jay pulls the plug on you.
Steve — It’s OK. It’s satire. Redneck is on here everyday with his “comments”.
Josh
September 26th, 2011
12:07 pm
Alternative: Roads not transit.
godless heathen
September 26th, 2011
12:32 pm
Granny:
http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/transportation/10-worst-cities-for-commuting-2011-edition/892
Why Can't Everyone Just Get In Line?
September 26th, 2011
12:35 pm
Joe Mama,
“It’s called arcology”, yes and portrayed in “Logan’s Run”.
MrLiberty
September 26th, 2011
12:43 pm
Why would anyone be stupid enough to endorce giving $7billion more to a failed government that can’t even manage to buid a bridge with safe railings, operate a bloated train system within budget, or keep the lights and roads properly maintained??
The failure is with government as more than enough money has been spent. Government has no incentive to spend other people’s money wisely and no incentive to keep customers happy. The whole system should be privatized and all government barriers taken down. The free market knows how to address transportation issues and the past 75 years of government failure clearly shows that the government does not. JUST VOTE NO !
Peter ( the first )
September 26th, 2011
12:48 pm
allen981 – And just where will that get your grandchildren when they run out of petroleum?
Adam
September 26th, 2011
12:53 pm
MrLiberty: The whole system should be privatized and all government barriers taken down. The free market knows how to address transportation issues
Really? How is that then? What’s the magic private solution to transportation?
Buford Citizen
September 26th, 2011
12:58 pm
For many in Gwinnett, SPLOST has become a dirty word thanks to the follies of our county commissioners over the years. Additionally, just last week we were told that some parks will need to be closed due to lack of maintenance funds. SPLOTS has been used for years to build stuff that the county can’t afford to keep up and maintain. Just like all the Libraries some of which have been forced to close or cut operations.
This November Gwinnett will have on the ballot an “E” SPLOST for education. A SPLOST here and a SPLOST there…a SPLOST everywhere. I wouldn’t count on a positive vote from Gwinnett on the TSPOST. Besides that, TSPLOST is about having a regional entity determine the transportation projects the sales tax collected in a county goes to instead of the counties. T-SPLOST takes away local control by allowing the wishes of the voters in each county be overridden by the collective vote of the region.
Not a very appealing thing with the current county commissioner situation already angering the citizens daily.
Strawman
September 26th, 2011
1:02 pm
“That war has to be the biggest lame-brained idea in the history of this country.”
You mean the Vietnam War, our involvement in which really began with the presidency of LBJ (after campaigning on the promise he would not involve the US in the war)? Can you think of another recent president who did NOT run for re-election? The Iraq War was a bad idea. But let’s not, while we are pointing fingers, be so myopic as to forget what party got us into Vietnam in a bad way.
Aquagirl
September 26th, 2011
1:07 pm
Heathen, did you notice IBM only polled those 20 cities listed? NYC had to end up somewhere on the list.
Also, the questions seemed to be about commutes by car, not public transportation.
If this is supposed to prove NYC has the worst commute in the US, massive FAIL.
Road Scholar
September 26th, 2011
1:09 pm
So, you don’t live near a MARTA train station. Or you can get to a station, but the MARTA train does not go to each and everyone of your destinations. So you do not benefit from it 24/7/365, right?
Wrong!!!!What if , since transit may be expanded, other people ditch their cars for some of their trips and get out of your way? Do you benefit from transit? Wouldn’t that decrease congestion? Now remember we are expectd to add 3 M more people to the metro area in the next 20 years.
And you want to sit in traffic longer? Boy some people are short sighted. Oh and how about future gas prices? Will it always be $3.50 /gal ? Remember that China and India and third world nations are increasing their use of oil.
In focus groups, many in the suburbs use GRTA/MARTA transit because of lower costs and provided STRESS RELIEF! No more yelling, flipping off, cutting off, etc. the person in front of you.Grab a book, listen to music, or sleep! Imagine that!
MrSensible
September 26th, 2011
1:20 pm
MrLiberty
September 26th, 2011
12:43 pm
Why would anyone be stupid enough to endorce giving $7billion more to a failed government that can’t even manage to buid a bridge with safe railings, operate a bloated train system within budget, or keep the lights and roads properly maintained??
** Do you think it was government building the bridge? NO. They contract it out to private business, and since it is a private business, perhaps they cut corners to keep more money. But let’s cut government oversight on this and let them reduce safety…**
The failure is with government as more than enough money has been spent. Government has no incentive to spend other people’s money wisely and no incentive to keep customers happy.
**Ummm, yes they do have an incentive. It’s called elections. Except people like you continue to vote based on the R or D behind the names.**
The whole system should be privatized and all government barriers taken down. The free market knows how to address transportation issues and the past 75 years of government failure clearly shows that the government does not. JUST VOTE NO !
**What planet are you from? Private industry can address transportation issues? You really think private industry is going to build roads and bridges? Earth to Mr. Liberty… Come in Mr. Liberty….**
Luis
September 26th, 2011
1:25 pm
So, why is godless heathen intent on celebrating ignorance as opposed to putting forth ideas worthy of consideration?
NYC does not have the worst commute in the nation, in fact Atlanta’s is worse.
And, the vast mass transit network that’s in place in the NYC metro area moves millions of people every day faster than us sitting like lame ducks on I-75 traffic.
These are the 10 worst commute times in the nation in hours wasted per year.
1. Chicago, IL: 70 hours
1. Washington, DC: 70 hours
2. Los Angeles, CA: 63 hours
3. Houston, TX: 58 hours
4. Baltimore, MD: 50 hours
5. San Francisco, CA: 49 hours
6. Boston, MA: 48 hours
6. Dallas, TX: 48 hours
7. Denver, CO: 47 hours
8. Atlanta, GA: 44 hours
8. Seattle, WA: 44 hours
9. Minneapolis, MN: 43 hours
10. New York, NY: 42 hours
Aquagirl
September 26th, 2011
1:37 pm
So, why is godless heathen intent on celebrating ignorance as opposed to putting forth ideas worthy of consideration?
You also have to consider if those NYC commute times include the Metro NY area, which extends out to places like Bridgeport, CT, 60 miles away.
I think we’ve beat this horse to death, heathen, but I’m still amazed how you can throw out such obvious junk and put people on the defensive. How the crap can we solve our transportation problems when people vote based on what they think they heard on TV one weekend, when it’s completely wrong?
Based on this, I anticipate nothing but more traffic in Atlanta. Ignorance doesn’t stop Georgians from pontificating loudly and traipsing into the voting booth.
dorae
September 26th, 2011
1:38 pm
If marta was to do a few things I think they would be more successful. Add more lines, instead of limiting the lines. In a store one will have on their shelves items which don’t sell that often because if someone comes in to purchase the item it only takes a couple of times till they stop shopping at your store. Remember, while in the store they will purchase other items. The same can be said of any product or service.
Also, the lines need to run longer and more often. Flexability is very important.
Finally, marta needs to change the perception of the public that riding marta is unsafe or can be irratating. If they were to provide more, not less, security then they may change the perception that marta is unsafe. And, if they were to provide security which would keep impolite people from hitting on every pretty person who sits down and doesn’t want to socialize than ridership would increase and the roads may be come less congested.
Whahema
September 26th, 2011
1:40 pm
It will be a shock to Bookman’s normal bigotry, but the reason that voters OTP will oppose the TSPLOST is that it’s a bad idea. It’s not race, it’s not knee jerk opposition to taxes. Voters will not like the projects selected and will be concerned that the six billion will do far less to relieve their traffic congestion than it could have. Most of us want to address traffic congestion, we just want TSPLOST to fix the problem and not just support some ideology.
Joe Mama
September 26th, 2011
1:45 pm
MrLiberty — “The free market knows how to address transportation issues”
Bullspit.
Laurie
September 26th, 2011
1:47 pm
getalife brings up a good point. We spent billions of dollars building military installations in Iraq, just to give it all away as we pull our forces out!?! I say we should be charging Iraq for the cost of building thoses installations and funneling that money back into the states for economic stimulus and transportion. Hey, maybe we could even pay down some of that federal debt Congress keeps fighting about. That’s a much better plan than increasing taxes.
Common Sense
September 26th, 2011
1:58 pm
We are talking about giving more money to a system that actually cut the full buses traveling back and forth to Turner Field. If running full buses are not profitable, what would be?
We are talking about giving more money to a system that cannot add enough cars on the rails to handle the crowds from major events on weekends. These events are on the calendar weeks in advance. It is the opportunity to show how the system can handle things. They choose not to.
This is the system that despite having collected the MARTA tax in Fulton County since the 1970s, does not plan to have rail to Windward Parkway until 2030.
That’s nearly a sixty year wait.
Mass transit: For those that love to wait.
bull
September 26th, 2011
2:14 pm
“Once the train lines exist, development and density will concentrate around the stations in the same way that development pops up around a new interstate interchange. ”
This is laughable.
Please point to ANY high-density development in Atlanta that occurred because of close proximity to MARTA.
MARTA trains have been running since 1979.
Luis
September 26th, 2011
2:14 pm
godless heathen
September 26th, 2011
12:32 pm
Granny:
http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/transportation/10-worst-cities-for-commuting-2011-edition/892
Now I get it, godless heathen got Mexico City confused with NYC, which happens to be on the green on this IBM study.
But, I don’t think godless heathen read the entire article, for it indicates that commuters surveyed in these 20 cities are opting for public transportation instead of driving, which means they at least have more choices than us, who are resigned to sitting on traffic. Now that’s a mess!
ATF
September 26th, 2011
2:52 pm
One of the problems I have with the proposed Cobb County light rail line is this: the line will run for 1 mile in Cobb County with one (maybe two) stops in the Cumberland area. Then it will run for 13 miles in Fulton County/City of Atlanta with an unknown number of stops until it reaches the Arts Center or Mid-Town Atlanta area. But the entire cost of constructing the line is coming from Cobb’s share of the TSPLOST.
It will take 10 years to build. After it is built, there is a thought that the line will be extended into the northern parts of the county – up toward Acworth. But that will be funded by a second TSPLOST which we will vote on in 2022 – for another 10 years of building and paying for a rail line that could begin to impact Cobb County traffic problems. Maybe by 2032 we will begin to have some relief from today’s traffic problems.
I would like to see the cost of the line apportioned based on the areas it serves – that includes Cobb County but also the areas of Fulton County/City of Atlanta that will benefit from it. If that happens, Cobb may be able to address some other transportation needs – street widenings, intersection redesign – that could make a difference to more of us who live in the county and are not heading to down town Atlanta to work.
Build The Outer Perimeter!!!
September 26th, 2011
2:55 pm
Build the Outer Perimeter!!!
Terry Bond
September 26th, 2011
2:58 pm
So how wide do we need to make I-85 to handle the current commuter traffic? How wide will it need to be in 10 years? Do you think we can ever make the Connector wide enough to keep up? At what cost?
The TIA we’re voting on next year is estimated to bring in just over $7 billion over it’s 10 year life. 15% of that is set aside for each county to spend as they see fit. The remaining money is for projects which have impact for the entire 10-county region. 45% of this remaining bucket is currently planned to be spent on roadway improvements, the rest (~55%) on transit.
This is still a far cry from what Atlanta really needs to invest to have anything approaching a world-class transit system to match our world-class airport.
rightwingextreme
September 26th, 2011
3:02 pm
Only if you can “carry” on the buses and MARTA!
Aquagirl
September 26th, 2011
3:05 pm
I would like to see the cost of the line apportioned based on the areas it serves – that includes Cobb County but also the areas of Fulton County/City of Atlanta that will benefit from it.
I’d like to see Cobb voters pay for MARTA, which they certainly use—-check any MARTA parking lot. DeKalb and Fulton have been paying 1% sales tax for decades. How about this: we calculate the back cost of Cobb MARTA riders, and y’all cut a check to us?
Unless you only work, live, and shop in Cobb County, the idea that TSPLOST should only be spent on roads that begin and end there is faulty, to say the least. Cobb drivers use the entire metro area. They pass through spaghetti junction, the downtown connector, and pretty much everywhere else. Demanding that others pay for these improvements while you pull up your ramparts and keep your own cash is extremely selfish. The result will be complete gridlock, which will affect Cobb and everyone else.
New Hope for T-SPLOST? — Peach Pundit
September 26th, 2011
3:18 pm
[...] to Jay Bookman on the op-ed pages of the AJC, the poll “…found that just 29 percent of metro voters are even somewhat familiar with [...]
TruthBe
September 26th, 2011
3:39 pm
Vote NO for this transportation tax because it is wrong and not needed in this obama economy. NO new taxes for any reasons. If Counties want Marta than they can fund it themselves. Marta wastes so much money and hires their leadership on race (Black). And if you call Marta on their wasteful spending than the Marta’s leadership calls you a racist because of their corruption. Too much spending and not enough cuts in wasteful corruption. Look people the government state or federal SPENDS TOO MUCH PERIOD.
WE PAY TOO MUCH IN TAXES, PERMITS, AND FEES.
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
September 26th, 2011
3:58 pm
bull
September 26th, 2011
2:14 pm
“Please point to ANY high-density development in Atlanta that occurred because of close proximity to MARTA”
Now this is laughable. Can you say downtown, midtown, buckhead, perimeter, lindberg, the plans around the doraville and Lakewood/Ft. McPhearson stations, the possible hapeville like for the planned development there, the number of condo building that were built along the Green and Blue lines on the east side of town and those that build them within walking distance to MARTA stations.
Really bull.. you made this comment?
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
September 26th, 2011
4:06 pm
Please read the post of ATF September 26th, 2011 2:52 pm. This is why we can’t work together as a REGION and be successful. To worried about your own area and not the region. Cobb is not paying for that line. The region is paying for it with the tax.
Also don’t complain that the rail and the cost and the time. This may take 20 years because it has to be paid for and built in stages. Who you should be upset at are the leaders and citizens of Cobb from the 70s. Didn’t they vote not to pay for MARTA? Let’s see, if they constructed the line in 1975… add 20 years…. 1995 MARTA rail…. and HEAVY rail, would have been built and at a cheaper rate than this proposed LIGHT rail. I guess if the people of Cobb would have had a better vision for the future that 856 million could have been spent somewhere else….
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
September 26th, 2011
4:19 pm
Common Sense
September 26th, 2011
1:58 pm
I guess it isn’t common sense that running those buses and adding additional rail cars cost money. If you didn’t notice we are in a reccesion and unfortunately MARTA’s funding is based on a sales taxes.
Also, you should know that the Red line was not orginally put into the MARTA plans but because of the population growth it was added. Again, no money and no state help or local help from the surrounding area means no rail to Windward, even though it is needed.
Maybe do your research rather than use your “common sense”…..
Billybob
September 26th, 2011
4:26 pm
polls….schmolls…..useless info unless you are the media trying to shape public opinion instead of ACTUALLY reporting it…..next
Grob Hahn
September 26th, 2011
4:52 pm
Are people REALLY willing to overlook MARTA’s crime problem? That’s the real question isn’t it? It’s the same for most mass transit in the US. Until people can have more than lip service security this system will continue to be a waste of subsidies. It’s also very telling who they had in mind when they created the routes. Few of them service the areas where non-subsidized riders might originate.
I like the bike rack idea, but I think we all know what would happen to an array of locked bicycles in downtown Atlanta.
Grobbbbbbbbbb
Jay
September 26th, 2011
4:57 pm
And we have a winner in the “Euphemism of the Day” contest:
“unsubsidized populations”!
Crime
September 26th, 2011
5:15 pm
Crime has gotten very bad on MARTA. I had my iphone stolen right from my hand enroute to the airport and have since heard many similar stories. I’ll never ride MARTA again. Disclosure: I’m a white guy from the northern suburbs. If you choose to ride MARTA: HOLD ONTO YOUR PHONE TIGHT!
forget rail
September 26th, 2011
5:18 pm
rail is way too expensive, not feasible and marta is totally corrup and inefficient. Just build more lanes on the freeways to handle more cars. This is not NY or DC–rail lines will not work.
New Hope for T-SPLOST?
September 26th, 2011
5:23 pm
[...] to Jay Bookman on the op-ed pages of the AJC, the poll “…found that just 29 percent of metro voters are even somewhat familiar with the [...]
TruthBe
September 26th, 2011
5:35 pm
Untill Marta deals with the black youth thugs in and around the Marta stations and it’s trains than the whole project is doomed. Crime and danger from these people need to be taken serious. Where are the police and the parents of these black youths? Atlanta has a black crime problem and NO ONE has the guts to do anything about it. Not Mayor Reed or Police Chief Taylor. Where is the Black Comunity Leadership? These youths need to be in school, are at work, or in the Military. Not hanging around Marta to cause trouble or get involved in crime. Well???????????
mmm, mmm, mmm, Barack the Liar Obama - BEND OVER, Here comes the CHANGE!
September 26th, 2011
6:23 pm
Count me in the minority. I will NEVER vote for another tax increase. Need an example? Try GA 400 and the SPLOST taxes.
Common Sense
September 26th, 2011
6:25 pm
Bryan Marta Supporter says ” guess it isn’t common sense that running those buses and adding additional rail cars cost money. If you didn’t notice we are in a reccesion and unfortunately MARTA’s funding is based on a sales taxes.”
If you cannot cover your costs when the trains are packed elbow to elbow with riders, then it never covers it’s costs.
What’s even funnier is that you belief Marta is concerned about cost of operations. So what’s the cost of all those buses with one or two riders in North Fulton? Is that more economically feasible than a platform full of paying riders?
Paddy O
September 26th, 2011
6:32 pm
The assumption by Jay appears to be that there has been no planning for transportation improvement and that this process required the reinvention of the planning wheel. The HB 277 bill was a perfect solution: Trans improvements need more capital; it was primarily local elected leaders requesting additional capital; the repubs at the statehouse pledged to NOT personally adopt a tax. So, they came up with a system where the state republs keep thier pledge, and even better, give local elected officials a strong voice in the projects that were to be done with the locally adopted TSPLOST. It predominantly eliminated GDoT’s remote & isolated planners from force feeding projects on local citizens, and should provide projects which help move more people in a safer environment. If the projects selected are completed (80% would be a good number) in the next 10 years, there is little reason NOT to renew it.
Paddy O
September 26th, 2011
6:48 pm
godless heathen – sadly, you don’t know your ass from your elbow. Do you have any idea the scale of the commute in NY? If you drive a car in, your commute will be pure hell. Most take buses or trains, and the mass of people moving is awesome. Everything is a personal decision. Those who gripe about their commute COULD move to close to their work. Remarkably, government does not revolve around the single citizen.
Paddy O
September 26th, 2011
6:52 pm
ragnar – have you looked at the proposed projects? If NOT, they YOU are a knee jerker. Sad, I thought you had a brain where you could contemplate a proposal.
Paddy O
September 26th, 2011
6:55 pm
good little liberal – you have a little operating brain. you don’t have the population density to operate a subway system like NY – you may not have the bedrock to build it either. Plus, here in GA the elected citizens actually provide input into the decisions of their state. The folks back in the 60’s did not want trains everywhere, so you got what you got. If you don’t like it, move to where your job is.
MrSensible
September 26th, 2011
7:55 pm
bull
September 26th, 2011
2:14 pm
“Once the train lines exist, development and density will concentrate around the stations in the same way that development pops up around a new interstate interchange. ”
This is laughable.
Please point to ANY high-density development in Atlanta that occurred because of close proximity to MARTA.
Ever been to Lindbergh?
Ryder
September 26th, 2011
8:03 pm
TruthBe
September 26th, 2011
5:35 pm
Untill Marta deals with the black youth thugs in and around the Marta stations and it’s trains than the whole project is doomed. Crime and danger from these people need to be taken serious. Where are the police and the parents of these black youths? Atlanta has a black crime problem and NO ONE has the guts to do anything about it.
Also a bunch of bull. I ride the train all the time from Buckhead to the airport – at least a couple times per week. I have NEVER ONCE seen any crime on MARTA. If you can’t handle seeing someone that wears his hat a little crooked, or pants a little low, then NOT only stay off MARTA, stay out of the whole @#%* city of Atlanta. There is a really vibrant scene which spans from downtown, to Little Five, to Midtown, to West Midtown and closeminded idiots like you are not welcome.
no more taxes
September 26th, 2011
10:17 pm
the country is in a near depression—people can afford to pay more taxes for some unneeded rail line to nowhere. Taxes are too high–cut taxes, cut waste and fraud in all these government programs and fire about 50% of these lazy government employees doing nothing to get a fat pension.
Paddy O
September 27th, 2011
10:11 am
no more taxes – have any grasp of reality? or just enjoying having a kindergarden temper tantrum?
Adam
September 28th, 2011
7:58 am
TruthBe: WE PAY TOO MUCH IN TAXES, PERMITS, AND FEES.
You’re free to leave this country for another with a better tax code any time!