Metro voters at least open to transportation tax
It would be great if next year’s region-wide referendum on a new transportation tax were to pass by the margin suggested in a newly released AJC poll. According to Mason-Dixon pollsters, 51 percent of registered voters say they would approve the one-penny tax, with just 36 percent opposed.
In fact, if repeated next year, such a result would be more than great. It would be downright shocking.
That’s not a reflection on the merits of the poll, which probably offers an accurate snapshot of public sentiment as it exists today. The only problem is, the vote won’t be held today. Given that Mason-Dixon found that just 29 percent of metro voters are even somewhat familiar with the proposed tax, a lot of minds are destined to change, one way or the other, in the months to come.
In fact, if the referendum does pass, I’d bet it would be by fewer than five percentage points. At the moment, even that would be a bit of an upset.
However, the poll results do offer a lot of pleasant surprises and cause for optimism, suggesting that the political landscape is not quite as forbidding as it might have seemed. It also offers one unpleasant result that isn’t a surprise in the least and may represent the proposal’s single biggest obstacle to passage.
For example, are suburban voters in Cobb and Gwinnett opposed to the measure before they even know much about it? No. By a margin of 48 to 42 percent, they say they support it.
Will transportation advocates have to overcome a knee-jerk opposition to new taxes in general? No again. Only 42 percent say they would refuse to support this or any other tax increase.
You also hear a lot of claims that metro Atlantans just won’t vote to spend money on public transit. Again, the poll suggests otherwise. Two-thirds of those responding believe that their community would benefit from expanded transit, and 82 percent agree that it’s important to encourage commuting via transit.
Overall, 91 percent of those polled said it was important to address the region’s transportation problems, and 67 percent said that congestion is causing a decline in quality of life here. Those are all good baseline numbers upon which to build a successful campaign. People understand there’s a problem and they want a solution.
So what’s the bad news? When voters were asked whether state and local officials would end the one-penny sales tax in 10 years, only 42 percent had faith the promise would be kept. The fact that the promise is written into law, ensuring that the tax could be renewed only if voters re-approve it come 2022, doesn’t change the reality that the public is deeply distrustful.
That lack of faith, driven in part by decisions such as keeping a toll on Ga. 400 beyond the promised time frame, is probably the single biggest obstacle to be overcome.
It also doesn’t help much that mechanisms for planning, funding and executing the regionwide transportation plan are awkward and unwieldy. That’s a direct consequence of a General Assembly and governor that were less interested in solving the problem than in finding a way to dump responsibility on someone else, in this case voters and local officials. If a camel is a horse designed by committee, this process is admittedly a camel.
On the other hand, if you’re stuck in the desert with no other options, a camel can be quite a fine transportation alternative. And that’s pretty much where we find ourselves. As voices rise in opposition to the referendum, it will be important to ask what alternative solutions they propose because realistically, there aren’t any.
– Jay Bookman
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251 comments Add your comment
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
September 26th, 2011
10:23 am
Bottom line is we need a solution. I’ve read multiple people complaining that MARTA doesn’t go where they need and too many bus transfers. I agree. Guess why it doesn’t though. Because the people in the suburbs were too scared of “crime” aka Black folks to expand. So now you have traffic everywhere and no options to get around now other than long bus routes into Atlanta and across the counties (Cobb and Gwinnett). They really don’t even have that.
Jm
September 26th, 2011
10:23 am
Godless 10:14
I’d suggest one has to think of roads and rail as a system that works together and as substitutes
If everone had to drive in NYC, the congestion would be 1000 times worse
People who have to drive will do so
If there is excess road capacity people will drive
When roads are at max capacity, people will elect to use transit IF it goes where they need to go
godless heathen
September 26th, 2011
10:25 am
Bryan: Yes, I’ve been to New York and it’s a mess. Why do liberals want Atlanta to be the same mess?
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
10:26 am
Fly-On-The-Wall, Common Sense, Steve – USA
Nah. I really do think that its a legacy thing. Everyone wants to make an impact.
And no supporters for the 19th hole party? Big contributors would get to join me on junkets to the world’s greatest golf courses. Even if you don’t play, they are at nice resorts. Government private jets!! Limos, we’ll be important!!
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
September 26th, 2011
10:28 am
(ir)Rational
Actually it makes perfect sense. This is what is wrong with people that don’t understand transit and don’t use it. It is not there to take all the people off the roads. It’s an option. I see I’m talking to a person that has never ridden NYC trains or buses. If you have they you would see how many people that move during the day. Is it going to take everyone off the streets, NO! Why because NYC is way too over populated.
I guess everyone should get on buses and trains so you and your people can have a clear shot everyday when you drive. Lets just get out of your way! That’s the only way transit will work… in your eyes.
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
September 26th, 2011
10:30 am
godless heathen
It’s a mess because it is far too populated. Not because of transit being there. What does expanding options to move around have to do with making Atlanta a mess?
Granny Godzilla
September 26th, 2011
10:30 am
Pardon me….Godless heathen
Please post link to report you claim to have read about NYC commute….
Seems you must have misread something or the study is outdated.
(chriminee, gotta double check absolutely everything these days)
ragnar danneskjold
September 26th, 2011
10:30 am
Good morning all. I will vote against the special sales tax. I have no objection to “user fees” – add whatever subsidies our overlords believe necessary to the per-use cost paid by the users. For MARTA, that means increased fares. For new roads, the traditional proxy is a higher gasoline tax. There is no rational reason that a purchase at Kohl’s should fund the transportation-predilections of unelected overlords.
Walk the Talk
September 26th, 2011
10:32 am
Bush did not spend any money while he was president. Bush just let the bills pile up on his desk, unpaid, and when Obama took office he had to decide whether to keep doing as Bush did and pile up the unpaid bills or start paying the bills. Obama decided to do the responsible thing and start paying the bills. The Republicans in Congress are mad at Obama because Obama 1) will not pay just the bills that they want paid and 2) will not take the money from payroll taxes to pay bills other than those associated with social security and medicare. The Republicans are also mad at Obama for occupying their White House amongst many other things.
Joe Mama
September 26th, 2011
10:32 am
G. Heathen — “Yes, I’ve been to New York and it’s a mess. Why do liberals want Atlanta to be the same mess?”
I lived and worked in NYC for 4 months some years ago. Knowing and understanding how the transit system works is *essential* to living there, unless you’re fabulously wealthy.
It may be a mess, but it *works*. And what we have in Atlanta is a non-working mess.
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
September 26th, 2011
10:33 am
These suburban counties want solutions. That is known. Why don’t you’ll pay a 1/2 cent tax and get MARTA rail service. Most don’t want MARTA only because of the buses. So keep your terrible bus systems and at least have enough sense to expand rail. You’ll pay 1/2 cent for 1/2 the services of MARTA.
Joe Mama
September 26th, 2011
10:33 am
R. Danneskjold — “I have no objection to “user fees” – add whatever subsidies our overlords believe necessary to the per-use cost paid by the users. For MARTA, that means increased fares. For new roads, the traditional proxy is a higher gasoline tax. There is no rational reason that a purchase at Kohl’s should fund the transportation-predilections of unelected overlords.”
I presume you are against the “Fair Tax” then, for the same reasons?
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
10:36 am
Bryan — MARTA supporter
“Who would complain about using too much electricity when that power comes from mostly water and wind and is much cleaner that gas.”
That would be great, but at this point, Georgia Power gets most of its Metro Atlanta power from coal.
ragnar danneskjold
September 26th, 2011
10:36 am
Good morning Joe @ 19:33, the Fair Tax is no less rational as a government funding device than is the income tax. In fact, it is superior – whereas the Income Tax levies against both portions of income (consumption expenditures and capital formation/savings) the Fair Tax levies only against the less destructive “consumption.” Tax policy is less a problem for me than overlord expenditures.
Greg
September 26th, 2011
10:37 am
Godless Heathen wrote:
“Yes, I’ve been to New York and it’s a mess. Why do liberals want Atlanta to be the same mess?”
First…you are talking about NYC…not New York as a whole. The problem with NYC is simple..too many people. The rail system is not the problem.
Atlanta will never be a NYC. NYC is a financial mecca for the USA. There are 8 million people living in NYC. There are slightly more than 9 million people in all of Georgia.
Atlanta has 425 thousand people. It will never be an NYC.
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
September 26th, 2011
10:38 am
Until people support and actually pay into MARTA like they should it is not going to go everywhere. It is going to continue to have a lot of long bus routes versus train stations. Now if there were train stations crossed thru the region and it still didn’t work then these folks would have a legit argument.
You even read some of the blogs and they say “MARTA works if it is near you and goes where you need it and doesn’t when it’s not and doesn’t go.” What does that say…. EXPAND MARTA so it will be more places and it will work for more people… duh!
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
10:38 am
Walk the Talk
“Obama decided to do the responsible thing and start paying the bills.”
What? When did this happen? He has borrowed more from China and printed unsupported currency. Our debt has skyrocketed under Obama.
ragnar danneskjold
September 26th, 2011
10:38 am
Dear Joe @ 10:33, to finish the thought, “user fees” are superior to even the Fair Tax, as each is charged only for that portion of services obtained.
Walk the Talk
September 26th, 2011
10:39 am
We need a special off-road gasoline if gasoline tax is to be used to fund highways. Also, if gasoline tax is to be used for roads, then it should be used for all roads all the way up to my driveway too instead of just for certain people’s roads. I’m tired of county commissioners getting their roads paved while others have to do without. Roads. They’re not just for politicians any more. Install meters in all vehicles and then collect a tax based on the total mileage on the vehicle on a monthly basis or else the vehicle shuts down when you try to operate it on a road.
(ir)Rational
September 26th, 2011
10:39 am
Bryan – I’m guessing you missed the eye roll at the end of my last post?
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
10:41 am
Bryan — MARTA supporter
So where are the plans to expand Marta in the city? There are none. There are slivers of rail lines that go to specific areas. They want to expand by putting slivers further out.
I wish it weren’t true, but riding a train to a location that is miles from your destination simply doesn’t work.
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
September 26th, 2011
10:41 am
Good little liberal
Even is that is true it’s still better to have electric trains and hybrid buses on the roads than a bunch of cars that use only gas. Better for the environment and gets people off the roads.
Walk the Talk
September 26th, 2011
10:41 am
Our debt has skyrocketed under Obama.
Our debt ceiling was approved by the Republican majority in Congress. Obama had no authority to borrow and spend that money without their approval.
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
10:43 am
Walk The Talk
“They’re not just for politicians any more. Install meters in all vehicles and then collect a tax based on the total mileage on the vehicle on a monthly basis or else the vehicle shuts down when you try to operate it on a road.”
That’s what we need. more bureaucrats running our lives.
Brosephus™ - Browning America Since 1973
September 26th, 2011
10:43 am
After reading the comments here, I’m not too shocked by what I’ve read. That said, I’m a definite No vote for this plan as it stands today. Not because of some adverse reaction to taxes, but because I don’t think the plan is focusing on what needs to be done for the future and is nothing but another band-aid for today’s problems.
The only plan I’ll vote yes for will extend rail at least 20 miles beyond the perimeter in all directions where there are major corridors. The rail will also have to connect all major tourist attractions and shopping locations in the metro area. Connecting those two will give tourists, who are in downtown Atlanta, access to all tourist attractions and major shopping areas to spend more money thereby helping our local economy.
Extending the rails at least 20 miles out will connect people out as far Douglasville, Newnan, McDonough, Covington, Buford, Cumming, and Acworth to rail lines into the city. If the rail lines are smoothed out to allow for increased speeds outside the perimeter, that will get more people to ride into the city and free up highway space.
Until metro area leadership shows some long-term thought, I’m not voting for anything.
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
10:44 am
Walk the Talk
Obama had a Democratic Majority in both houses for his first two years.
Remember?
Peadawg
September 26th, 2011
10:45 am
“Our debt ceiling was approved by the Republican majority in Congress. ”
The GOP had the majority in Congress from 2008-2010? Where the hell have I been the past 3 years?
Walk the Talk
September 26th, 2011
10:45 am
GLL,
The latest debt ceiling hike was approved by a Republican majority Congress. Remember?
mike "hussein" smith
September 26th, 2011
10:47 am
Jm sez: “We have forgotten a lesson known well by many of the founding fathers. Debt is bad” I say: WHAT?? I know debt is bad, too, but it’s necessary because I don’t want to live under a bridge — or or wake up at dawn so I can idle my car on I-85. The founding fathers went into debt to fight the revolution, borrowing from France and other European nations. It took over 4 decades before monetary debts were paid off, under Democrat Andrew Jackson. But the FFs paid nothing for use of the French military. That US debt wasn’t repaid until GIs were sent to fight in World War I, by Democrat Woodrow Wilson.
Shawny
September 26th, 2011
10:47 am
The HOT lane on I-85 and the future HOT lane up I-75 will allow the state to reap MILLIONS in revenue.
Why should we vote to tax ourselves even more when they have these scams to generate revenue?
There is no traffic plan. Just a series of bandaids, and most of them are no good. Where are all the right hand turn lanes?
Where are all the cloverleafs and “jug handles”? No, we just see a couple of cars backed up at an intersection and slap in another traffic light which does the opposite in the overall scheme.
Peadawg
September 26th, 2011
10:48 am
“The latest debt ceiling hike was approved by a Republican majority Congress. Remember?” – I didn’t know the GOP had a majority in the Senate.
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
10:48 am
Everyone take a few seconds and take a look at this map: http://www.mta.info/nyct/maps/submap.htm
Its the NYC subway map. It covers the city. That’s why it works.
Now look at this map: http://itsmarta.com/rail-schedules-or-route.aspx
See the difference? If MARTA is serious about growing, MAKE THE TRAIN SERVICE SERVICE ATLANTA!!!!!!
jm
September 26th, 2011
10:49 am
Regulation run amok
A holy amen for Susan Collins
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904194604576583082888335542.html?grcc=grdt&mod=WSJ_hps_sections_opinion
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
10:50 am
Walk the Talk
A Republican House, not Congress. Congress means both the Senate and the House of Representatives.
I’m sure you don’t remember that.
Joe Mama
September 26th, 2011
10:51 am
R. Danneskjold — “the Fair Tax levies only against the less destructive “consumption.” Tax policy is less a problem for me than overlord expenditures.”
And yet in your previous post, you opine that
“There is no rational reason that a purchase at Kohl’s should fund the transportation-predilections of unelected overlords.”
These two statements seem to be in disagreement with each other. Can you elaborate, please, and thereby help me understand your position better?
HDB
September 26th, 2011
10:51 am
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
10:41 am
The problem is the mentalities of the regional governments (nee POLITICIANS!) in relationship to mass transit! In the original design of the MARTA rail, the East/West line traversed from Covington to Douglasville, the North/South Line from Forsyth County to Henry County, the Northeast/Southwest Line from Hall County to Fayetteville…and spur lines from Downtown to Smyrna(the Proctor Creek line)….and Emory/Tucker to Downtown!! The municipalities’ desires to keep out the “undesirables” (i.e., black people) out of the suburbs kepp full implementation of the MARTA design…as it ws a regional view of traffic…and this ws in the SEVENTIES!! The planners HAD a vision; the POLITICIANS didn’t!!
Joe Mama
September 26th, 2011
10:54 am
GLL — “See the difference? If MARTA is serious about growing, MAKE THE TRAIN SERVICE SERVICE ATLANTA!!!!!!”
On this point, sir, we appear to be in agreement.
I seem to see people here saying ‘we don’t want the train anywhere near my house’ and others (or perhaps the same folks) saying ‘damn thing doesn’t come anywhere close to my house, so it’s useless to me.’
One leads to the other. If you want the benefit of it, you have to be prepared for the downside of it.
Why Can't Everyone Just Get In Line?
September 26th, 2011
10:54 am
If we would all simply move into centralized living quarters, then everything would work out just dandy. We could all work at the factories, take the mass transit, wear the same uniforms, eat what they tell us to eat, play approved games, think appropriate thoughts, then the liberals would be happy. What’s the matter with people? Let’s erase those that don’t think like we want them to think. Isn’t that the ultimate goal? MARTA has been such a wonderful example of how things should work, if we could only tax more!!!
Aquagirl
September 26th, 2011
10:56 am
Why is everyone arguing about New York City? Godless Heathen “remembers” something that he/she can’t find again and it’s accepted as fact, triggering attempts to defend NYC’s transit system. WTF?
Reading these posts is like watching a Republican debate.
carlosgvv
September 26th, 2011
10:56 am
Fly-On-The-Wall – 9:05
You are absolutely correct about the Tea Party. As for your own company and all those job cuts, I’d be willing to bet that there is no new hiring and all of you have more and more work piled upon you and have been told that if you can’t cut it, there are no shortages of people willing to replace you. Am I right?
Walk the Talk
September 26th, 2011
10:56 am
The Budget Control Act of 2011 is the most recent legislation that increased the debt ceiling and it was indeed approved by the Republican majority Congress in August of 2011. The Democrats were clearly not the majority party in Congress in August of 2011.
Joe Mama
September 26th, 2011
10:57 am
WCEJGIL — “If we would all simply move into centralized living quarters, then everything would work out just dandy.”
It’s called arcology. Maybe you’ve played Sim City?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcology
“We could all work at the factories, take the mass transit, wear the same uniforms, eat what they tell us to eat, play approved games, think appropriate thoughts, then the liberals would be happy.”
I’m a liberal and I don’t think that for a moment.
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
September 26th, 2011
10:57 am
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
10:41 am
Guess why there are no plans. Because instead of focusing on plans like th at to have rail to places like North Druid Hills, Kirkwood, Turner Field, West Midtown, Cambellton, Howell Mill/Northside, etc is because we have to focus on building lines that should have already been here if the people would have look at what the future would be versus being worried about “crime”. There would already be MARTA atleast to Marietta. Rail would already be up to Gwinnett Place. Already to Jonesboro in Clayton. We would be working on intown stations and lines going across northern 285. All the things that people want but can’t get because we are so far behind on what we should already have.
ken
September 26th, 2011
10:58 am
A tax never goes down or away
Peadawg
September 26th, 2011
10:59 am
“The Democrats were clearly not the majority party in Congress in August of 2011.”
I missed where the GOP held the majority in BOTH parts of Congress. When did they take the majority in the Senate, Walk the Talk?
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
11:00 am
HDB
Look at the NYC subway map and then look at the MARTA map in my post at 10:48. Marta trains are a joke. They are designed more like AMTRAK than like a metro trains system. MARTA isn’t successful because people from Douglasville don’t ride it. It’s not successful because people in downtown Atlanta don’t ride it.
You can call it a fight against Black People, but it is the crime around the MARTA stations that has kept it out of many areas. Are the people committing those crimes Black? Are they riding in from less privileged areas to steal and then jump on the bus and be gone?
That’s the perception.
But the reality is that if people were riding in from less privileged White areas, stealing and jumping on the trains to make a hasty escape, the trains would be no more attractive.
Shawny
September 26th, 2011
11:00 am
ok, here we go. HERE is why you should vote not NO on this debacle:
1 – $11M for improvements at McCollum airfield in Kennesaw. Cobb country residents, do you want the airfield expanded? I am betting not.
2 – Over $16M for improvements at Charlie Brown airport off of Fulton Ind. Does anyone really use that airport? I don’t know one individual that has ever flown out of there.
3 – $23M in improvements for bicycle and pedestrian improvements on Stone Mtn Lithonia Rd. Not improvements for traffic mind you, but bikes and people to walk. No parks around? Seriously?
4 – $26M in Roosevelt Hwy bike and ped improvements? Seriously?
5 – $38 million to relocate an Amtrak station? Is that boondoggle still afloat?
6 – $180M for funding EXISTING GRTA bus service? Really? It doesn’t collect enough revenue to support itself?
7 – $839M, yes, a whopping $839M to extend a Marta rail line to SR140. Holey Smokes! Will there be any payback for that?
stands for decibels
September 26th, 2011
11:00 am
Somewhat on-topic:
There’s a wee flaw in designing an economy which requires people to spend a huge amount of money to purchase and maintain a giant metal box in order to be able to drive to minimum wage jobs.
see also:
http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/130541748.html
Peter ( the first )
September 26th, 2011
11:00 am
MountainMan – I agree that parking prices in Atlanta are far too low to discourage driving into the city. It will take a while but fuel prices will be a factor in the future, driving communters to public transit.
Fly-On-The-Wall
September 26th, 2011
11:01 am
(ir)Rational – your 10:13 response to my ‘big projects’ question is a deflection at best. Regardless of the regulations or even if they were removed no business would build the interstate hwy system. It just won’t happen without the Federal government. Therefore, to compete in the 21st century the Federal government MUST spend money (it doesn’t have) to allow business to compete in the global market place.
stands for decibels
September 26th, 2011
11:02 am
Bros @ 10.43, I dunno. While I hear you loud and clear, I think you’re veering into the sort of thought that has people repeating the maxim that “the perfect is the enemy of the good.”
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
11:03 am
Bryan — MARTA supporter
Look at the maps of NYC and of Atlanta that I posted at 10:48. The people in Marietta are not the reason why MARTA loses a fortune. The train lines simply go nowhere IN the city.
Everyone looks at MARTA as bringing people to the city. The problem is that unless you work on Memorial drive or downtown, it’s useless.
stands for decibels
September 26th, 2011
11:04 am
Really? It doesn’t collect enough revenue to support itself?
oh fercryinoutloud.
stands for decibels
September 26th, 2011
11:06 am
This is where I challenge our naysayers who base their opposition to subsidizing mass transit on the rather utopian notion that mass transit somehow shouldn’t need subsidy–
where on the planet, that you would even consider livable, does the public *not* subsidize mass transit?
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
September 26th, 2011
11:06 am
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
10:48 am
I saw this and you are 100% right on this one. Again, you want service like that you have to pay for it. But how with no state support for expanding and not even support from the surrounding counties to invest into the system. Because of “crime” and because counties like Gwinnett and Cobb are going to complain about not having their fair share. Every county is going to want stations and trains criss crossing their counties even though most aren’t going to need more than one line to bring them into the city. Maybe one cross line (light rail possibly) that connects the major areas of the county and also connects to the main trunk line (heavy rail) to bring people into Atlanta.
Brosephus™ - Browning America Since 1973
September 26th, 2011
11:07 am
dB
Sounds like another episode of cut service and then complain because it doesn’t provide service.
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
11:08 am
MARTA IS NOT AMTRAK
Everybody join in!!
MARTA IS NOT AMTRAK
MARTA IS NOT AMTRAK
MARTA IS NOT AMTRAK
Say it with me
MARTA IS NOT AMTRAK
MARTA IS NOT AMTRAK
MARTA IS NOT AMTRAK
We don’t need transportation from outside the perimeter until we get the train lines working inside the city. Instead of spending billion to lay miles of tracks to cities so people can ride into the city on Sunday Afternoon to watch the Falcons, the city needs a working system that accesses other parts of the city than downtown and Memorial drive.
Joe Mama
September 26th, 2011
11:09 am
Shawny — “1 – $11M for improvements at McCollum airfield in Kennesaw. Cobb country residents, do you want the airfield expanded? I am betting not.”
I do.
“2 – Over $16M for improvements at Charlie Brown airport off of Fulton Ind. Does anyone really use that airport? I don’t know one individual that has ever flown out of there.”
Pleased to meet you. I have.
“3 – $23M in improvements for bicycle and pedestrian improvements on Stone Mtn Lithonia Rd. Not improvements for traffic mind you, but bikes and people to walk. No parks around? Seriously?”
Ever heard of the Silver Comet Trail?
“4 – $26M in Roosevelt Hwy bike and ped improvements? Seriously?”
Seriously. Did you have a substantive criticism?
“5 – $38 million to relocate an Amtrak station? Is that boondoggle still afloat?”
What boondoggle is that?
“6 – $180M for funding EXISTING GRTA bus service? Really? It doesn’t collect enough revenue to support itself?”
Does I-75 support itself? Does I-85? How about the Perimeter? Do any of those support themselves, or are tax receipts used for maintenance and upkeep on those roads?
“7 – $839M, yes, a whopping $839M to extend a Marta rail line to SR140. Holey Smokes! Will there be any payback for that?”
Are you saying that you expect all transportation expenditures to have a *direct* payback? How about in facilitating trade and business? How about in making it possible for trade and business to be physically transacted?
Greg
September 26th, 2011
11:10 am
Shawny Wrote:
“The HOT lane on I-85 and the future HOT lane up I-75 will allow the state to reap MILLIONS in revenue.
Why should we vote to tax ourselves even more when they have these scams to generate revenue?”
I hope that this is sarcasm…because this is not going to happen. At 25 dollars per round trip during a recession (20 work days per month = $500) there will only be a few people traveling in the HOT Lanes…therefore this is another waste of taxpayer money.
Brosephus™ - Browning America Since 1973
September 26th, 2011
11:11 am
dB @ 11:02
I’d hate to do that, but somebody has to try to inject common sense and logic into the debate. Nobody thinks about tourism when talking about this project. How is paving a road in Cobb or Henry Co going to help tourism? If we make it to where tourists can be more mobile, then they’re likely to spend more money. That way, people can quit b*tching because then out-of-towners are helping support the system just as much as we are.
Atlanta’s trying it’s best to be a top convention getter. Why would I put a convention here and have my people locked into downtown when I can go somewhere else where they are more mobile and can enjoy themselves more?
DB - A Marta Rider
September 26th, 2011
11:12 am
For those comparing New York and Atlanta commutes, you will find this report from the Brookings Institute interesting…. A typical Atlanta residents carbon footprint is almost TWICE that of a New York Resident. (NY = 1.4 per capita metric ton vs. ATL = 2.68 per capita metric ton)
Large metropolitan areas offer greater energy and carbon efficiency than non metropolitan areas. The 100 largest metro areas in the United States emitted 56% of U.S. carbon emissions from highway transportation and residential buildings in 2005. Metropolitan residents had a smaller carbon footprint than the average American (2.24 metric tons versus 2.60 metric tons). This is due primarily because metro dwellers travel less by car and use less electricity.
http://green.wikia.com/wiki/Carbon_Footprint_of_American_Cities
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
11:13 am
Bryan — MARTA supporter
Everyone here is saying that it’s the responsibility of the outer counties to start to love MARTA. But the bad idea of running one line into a huge area didn’t work in Atlanta and it won’t work in Cobb county. We need to “grid” the city with train service.
Actually, I don’t live there any more so me and my old Chevy is the only alternative I have.
HDB
September 26th, 2011
11:14 am
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
11:00 am
I was speaking of the mentality of the politicians here in the region when MARTA was FIRST developed…in the 70s….not currently!! The problem is that PERCEPTION differs from REALITY!! Not all MARTA stations would be considered “high crime” locations…Doraville, Chamblee, Airport, HE Holmes, Buckhead, Lindbergh…..
Note my 10:51 as to the ORIGINAL plans and the scope of MARTA….the buses were to be the FEEDERS to the expansive rail line!! The ORIGINAL design of MARTA was intended to decrease the auto traffic from the THREE expressways…..and the buses were the crosstown movers and feeders into the rail!! We have to go BACK to the future……
Finn McCool
September 26th, 2011
11:15 am
Who needs the Fairness Act? We have other ways to bring down the pseudo “news” organizations….mwuahahahahahahahaha!!
The News Corp phone-hacking scandal is still generating headlines in the UK. (It is widely referred to as the “phone-hacking scandal,” though it may more accurately be described as a “police bribery, voicemail-listening, privacy-invading, and lying-to-Parliament scandal.”) The Guardian says today that it may soon spread to America. The lawyer representing the family of one of the murder victims whose voicemail was listened to by News of the World reporters is looking to launch a class action suit against Rupert and James Murdoch in the US.
Brosephus™ - Browning America Since 1973
September 26th, 2011
11:19 am
GLL
Have you looked at the number of tags in the MARTA parking lots that do not belong to Fulton/Dekalb? There are thousands who can benefit directly simply by extending the rails outward. Are you saying that MARTA should neglect damn near guaranteed increases in ridership just so you can ride the train to a bar or something?
Jm
September 26th, 2011
11:19 am
Made a contribution to Romney…..
stands for decibels
September 26th, 2011
11:19 am
It is widely referred to as the “phone-hacking scandal,” though it may more accurately be described as a “police bribery, voicemail-listening, privacy-invading, and lying-to-Parliament scandal.”
veering further off-topic with you, I want to direct all interested folks to a wonderful segment that On the Media broadcast this weekend, about the origins/evolution of the term “hack.”
http://www.onthemedia.org/blogs/on-the-media/2011/sep/22/jargon-file/
ragnar danneskjold
September 26th, 2011
11:19 am
Dear jm @ 10:49, good morning, agreed, I was shocked. While she does not pursue the idea to its logical end, and her half-step would have little of the desired effect, she demonstrates the first glint of insight by a leftist.
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
11:20 am
HDB
I agree that the original plans wold have worked. But look at what they keep doing. MARTA and apparently most posters here want MARTA to be AMTRAK. It simply ain’t. It is a metro rail service. The NYC map covers a smaller area than the Atlanta Perimeter, but anywhere you go in New York, there is a rail service a few blocks away.
Buses are awful. They run late and they take forever to get anywhere. Get the rails working and you have the answer.
Once Atlanta starts to understand what the rail is actually for, they can start to build a real commuter system.
HDB
September 26th, 2011
11:20 am
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
11:03 am
At the time that MARTA was laying its rail tracks, it was CHEAPER for the system to purchase land for track from Seaboard Railroad which ran parallel to the train tracks! Because the initial iteration of MARTA focused on HEAVY rail, the purchase of land from Seaboard was the least expensive choice!! NOW, in order to address the transportation needs of the region, we have to look a heavy AND LIGHT rail along with integrating the bus systems!!
jaystar
September 26th, 2011
11:21 am
Shawny if you actually looked at the list you would see that your argument against it doesn’t make sense. Most of the projects you list aren’t actually on the list.
http://www.atlantaregionalroundtable.com/documents/Constrained_Draft_Final_List.pdf
stands for decibels
September 26th, 2011
11:21 am
Made a contribution to Romney…..
Do they send you a set of “I [heart] Mittens” magic underpants at, say, the 100 dollar level?
‘cuz that’d be kind of cool.
Fulton County
September 26th, 2011
11:21 am
The main thing we are we willing to pay for is an extension of the Red Line to Holcomb Bridge and beyond. That didn’t make the list. We vote no.
Normal
September 26th, 2011
11:22 am
jm,
“Made a contribution to Romney…”
Good for you! Of them all, he seems the most sane…
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
September 26th, 2011
11:23 am
Well, up here in Forsyth County most of us are against fancy trains so a few hippies and homos and Those People can get to where they want to go. Let them buy pickups like the rest of us. Besides, we don’t need to make it easier for thiefs to come out of downtown Atlanta and steal our stuff and haul it back by train. All you people in favor of trains are going to be mighty sorry when you can’t even move in a rail car without bumping into a 52″ flat screen.
I say widen the roads—heck, pave the whole state with concrete if you need to—and forget about this mass transit. They’ll just lie to you about what they’re going to do with your tax money anyway. Just ask any of those GA 400 commuters how they feel when they toss 50 cents of hard-earned money into a bin that was suppose to be removed two years ago but will be there long after they’re dead. Besides, you know good and well the train stations ain’t going to be within 10 miles of where you live. People were conned by MARTA but they ain’t going to be conned again.
If God had of meant for you to ride a train to work He wouldn’t of allowed cars and trucks to be invented and sold.
That’s my opinion and it’s very true. Have a good work week everybody and don’t try and toss plug quarters into one of them bins.
Intowner
September 26th, 2011
11:23 am
Bryan — MARTA supporter
September 26th, 2011
10:57 am
Guess why there are no plans. Because instead of focusing on plans like th at to have rail to places like North Druid Hills, Kirkwood, Turner Field, West Midtown, Cambellton, Howell Mill/Northside, etc is because we have to focus on building lines that should have already been here if the people would have look at what the future would be versus being worried about “crime”. There would already be MARTA atleast to Marietta. Rail would already be up to Gwinnett Place.
And think about how much cheaper it would have been to develop back in the 1970s or 1980s rather than today. Had our leaders had foresight and vision, the Atlanta metro area could already have a world-class transportation system.
Granny Godzilla
September 26th, 2011
11:25 am
Contribution to Romney?
Made me think about his last run for the White House. I understand he spent upwards of 40 million of his own money in 2008.
Has he showed the same confidence in his own campaign this time?
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
September 26th, 2011
11:25 am
MARTA not going to expand until people get about and understand that it has to be paid for to expand. Also the preceptions of increased crime with transit has to go too. People want more stations in the city which I completely agree with. But because of the lack of vision by suburban counties in the 70s we are now having to build a stage of the rail line that should be there. We should be looking at lines from Avondale to Stone Mtn, from Bankhead to West Midtown to Moores Mill and Syrmna. From East Lake to Emory to Tucker. Lindberg to Emory is the only line that falls into the “intown” category. What about from Hamilton Holmes to Fulton Ind Blvd. What about a branch line to Kirkwood and Horesa Drive. What about the Turner Field line and expand it to Grant Park, East Atlanta then to I-20 and follow it to Chandler Rd then to Conyers? Trains from Cumberland to Doraville. We should already have trains from Town Center in Cobb to downtown and Gwinnett Place to downtown and from Jonesboro to downtown.
HDB
September 26th, 2011
11:26 am
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
11:20 am
I don’t think that most here want MARTA to parallel AMTRAK, but the resistance to the original MARTA design is the primary reason we are where we are NOW!! Now in order to reach the original design will cost MORE….
What also has to be done is to allow MARTA to spend more of its subsidy on maintenance….the only way that happens is a CHANGE in STATE LAW…..
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
September 26th, 2011
11:28 am
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
11:13 am
I completely agree but we don’t need “grid” service in places like Cobb and Gwinnett. A main line into the city and a line that connects some of the major areas in that county, even if it was something like a fixed guideway bus rapid transit
allen981
September 26th, 2011
11:33 am
Just got back from 2 weeks in Europe, the ‘transit’ capital of the world. Here are a few facts:
In London, a single day roundtrip on a 20-mile commute each way at rush hour will cost you $60 (that’s right) with another $30 in parking.
Trains in Europe aren’t cheap; the TGV high speed train from London to Paris runs about $400 in economy, $150 more in business. 3 hour trip time. A flight from close in Luton airport to Orly: $150 roundtrip, with several flights a day offered.
90 minute train ride from Nancy, France to Paris, round trip: $200. Time to make the same trip in a car: 60 minutes, at less than half the cost.
Watch what we create folks; we need electric cars that perform, natural gas fueled vehicles that don’t pollute (it works). Transit in any form is outrageously expensive and nowhere in the world do trains pay for themselves.
We are a nation of freedom loving people, not a bunch of cattle to be herded about as the government tells us to. We have land – plenty of land – to expand as Americans have always done.
I’m sure in the 1850s some New York Times writer was complaining about the push West, and how we all ought to live in the city, use a stage coach/trolley to get to work, and let the government decide where we live.
Folks, we’ve tried trains, and the service died. It is old, outdated technology at any speed. Changing the way we drive, and maximizing the full value of our aviation capability, is the way forward.
Unless this tax adds roads and incentives for alternative fuel vehicles, I will never vote for it.
Adam
September 26th, 2011
11:33 am
Ridiculous to assume people won’t do bus transfers. They will, if they have no other choice or if the metro is a better cost effective option. Even if the time it take out of their day is a 2-3 hour two-way commute. People in other cities and countries do this all the time. And guess what? They tend to do things like, oh, I don’t know, READ while on the bus, making them even smarter.
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
September 26th, 2011
11:33 am
Intowner
September 26th, 2011
11:23 am
Exactly! Now we are trying to do alternatives like light rail and trams that are too slow and, to me cause more traffic because they run on the streets. We could have had a great rail system and Atlanta would probably look a lot more dense than it is now.
I hope we get it right this time.
WOODSTOCK MIKE
September 26th, 2011
11:34 am
“I support public transit (MARTA) but, sadly, it’s not likely to happen in my lifetime
Past lack of foresight by Georgia “leadership” has cost the state in so many areas. (I look forward to going home when I retire.)”
And we look forward to you leaving when you retire…
Jm
September 26th, 2011
11:34 am
Sfd
um, no. But that was really funny
Granny I have no idea and I don’t care
Adam
September 26th, 2011
11:34 am
Also it’s good to know people in general are finally getting the message that “OMG TAX IS BAD” is a ridiculous and tired battle cry of old ornery people.
ryan
September 26th, 2011
11:37 am
Will never pass and I take the CCT express bus from Acworth to downtown everyday. Marta just raised their monthly pass to like $98 from 60 something, all the while cutting service constantly. co-workers are already talking about car pooling rather than keep paying for Marta. Why would I vote for a .01 sales tax, that will take 10 years to put in a light rail line from Cumberland to Downtown, when I live in Acworth. By the time you get to Cumberland, there’s no more traffic, why would you stop? Put in a cheap HOV lane, that people will actually use, and go from there on expanding.
Kamchak
September 26th, 2011
11:38 am
MARTA really isn’t a viable alternative as a daily commute for me, but as an infrequent user to the Dome or the airport it was a convenience — at one time. A trip to Indian Creek station took only 7-10 minutes (depending on traffic and signals), you could put quarters in the turnstile and it seemed there was never more than a 5 minute wait for a departing train. Get to Five Points and not wait for more than 5 minutes for a train to the airport.
Now it’s standing in line for fare cards from machines that may or may not work and longer wait times for departing trains. What used to be a 30-35 minute trip to the airport turned into 50 minutes to an hour.
Too much of a pain-in-the-ass.
getalife
September 26th, 2011
11:43 am
“THE GREAT IRAQ GIVEAWAY:
U.S. Handing Over Billions In Bases And Equipment To Avoid Shipping Home ”
Where are the suddenly fiscal cons on military waste?
javon
September 26th, 2011
11:43 am
obama needs 4 more years to get all the funding for these rail lines—taxes need to go way up on rich people and big corporations to pay for all these billions needed.
Walk the Talk
September 26th, 2011
11:45 am
Republicans have decided to run on the OMG Tax is Bad ticket so they should have to live with it. Demand more tax cuts and demand an elimination of government jobs and government revenues on a year over year basis as verification. Otherwise, they’ll just shift the tax burden somewhere else and try to hide it from you. Never trust a Republican. Do not Trust AND Verify. It is the only way.
Steve - USA
September 26th, 2011
11:45 am
Redneck@11:23 Your “h” comment is totally unacceptable. I would report you if they didn’t require you to fill out some form.
I hope Jay pulls the plug on you.
Jay
September 26th, 2011
11:46 am
sheets
Fly-On-The-Wall
September 26th, 2011
11:46 am
I like what San Diego has done with the red trolly system. When I lived in So Cal, I loved it when I went to visit friends there. Something like that could work here, small footprint and can be built to go where we need it to.
regressive tax
September 26th, 2011
11:47 am
the fair tax is regressive—high income people will end up paying a very small % of their income in taxes, while moderate income individuals will pay much more.
BLAH! BLAH! BLAH!
September 26th, 2011
11:48 am
Redneck Convert,
You are truly the epitome of an idiot (no pun intended)… Stay within your pathetic cave, you are why so many continue to assume that the South is loaded with pathetic hicks and inbreds….
Brosephus™ - Browning America Since 1973
September 26th, 2011
11:48 am
Now it’s standing in line for fare cards from machines that may or may not work and longer wait times for departing trains. What used to be a 30-35 minute trip to the airport turned into 50 minutes to an hour.
Too much of a pain-in-the-ass.
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Keep Up the Good Fight!
September 26th, 2011
11:49 am
Simply put, MARTA as it currently exists is not the “example” of a “perfect transportation model”. It is a politically and financially strapped program. It’s not a failure…it is an example of some of the right answers being limited and reduced by other political forces with an agenda to destroy it. It is part of the failure of the “goverment needs to get out of the way” Reagan legacy instead of using government to bring technology and innovation leadership.
It however is the bones of a system that can be built into a vibrant system that collects commuters and coordinates with local adjacent systems and can provide a signifant part of public transportation in a proper system. Its a shame that our politicians have not done more for so long.
Good little liberal
September 26th, 2011
11:50 am
HDB
Good talking to you as usual. I think we are in agreement that MARTA has a lot of potential, but it just seems to always be going in the wrong directions. I love the trains, I just wish I could have used them more when I lived there.
Up here in the sticks, my big traffic problem is when Annie Mae is driving her new Nissan Maxima down the two lane highway at a blinding 18 mph and I’m late for a meeting. The 5 PM traffic is horrible. Sometimes five or six cars will be in front of me, trying to turn left at the four lane. It’s a friggin’ nightmare.
I know that the new Maxima doesn’t make sen
I’ve got an intern coming in today and I’ll need to find stuff for him to do. Have a good one.
Adam
September 26th, 2011
11:52 am
Side note: Republican debate rules:
1) Ask softball questions to frontrunners, make the second and third tier candidates answer the tough ones.
Have no specific job creation plans unless it involves lowering taxes, and make sure to make the false claim that Obama has created ZERO jobs.
2) As a participant, say “Ronald Reagan” early and often.
3) Try not to diss the other candidates, but if you must, make sure it’s everybody against the frontrunner.
4) Diss Obama as much as possible, in whatever ways possible. Bonus points for the use of the term “Obamacare”
5) Get bonus points every time you mention abolishing a federal department or state’s rights/10th Amendment.
6) Get bonus points for reducing taxes, super extra bonus points for eliminating taxes.
7) Avoid talking about National Security at all costs
9) Bonus points for any dissing of Obama not mentioned above.
Extra credit) Discover a new way to get the audience to act like they are in the audience of the Roman Coliseum.