Consumer spending up, but recession still a threat
From Reuters:
WASHINGTON – U.S. consumer spending rose
at its fastest pace in five months in July, backing views the
economy was not falling back into recession, although pending
sales of previously owned homes fell.The Commerce Department said on Monday consumer spending
increased 0.8 percent on strong demand for motor vehicles,
after slipping 0.1 percent in June.Economists had expected spending, which accounts for about
70 percent of U.S. economic activity, to rise 0.5 percent.When adjusted for inflation, spending rose 0.5 percent last
month, the largest gain in 1-1/2 years and the first increase
since April.
While that’s good news, a double-dip recession is still a very real danger. The sovereign-debt crisis in Europe continue to play out, and seems destined to result in at least one and possibly more defaults. The recent brinksmanship in Washington has raised doubts both here and abroad about the sophistication and sense of responsibility among much of our elected leadership. And while corporate profits and corporate cash holdings remain at record highs, that’s dead money taken out of circulation.
As a story in today’s Wall Street Journal puts it:
Economists at JPMorgan, in their weekly reprise of economic developments, blamed the recent global stock selloff on “a sense of policy paralysis in the U.S. and Europe, which has driven home the point that there is no cavalry to ride to the rescue.”
“Fiscal policy has turned restrictive and an additional sharp tightening lies just ahead in the U.S., while monetary authorities have exhausted much of their ammunition,” they said.
Officials on both sides of the Atlantic who orchestrated the response to the global financial crisis insist the world economy would have been worse had they not acted as they did. But it’s clear that the remedies didn’t deliver the recovery for which they hoped.
Some economists, among them Harvard UniversiItty’s Kenneth Rogoff, say today’s painfully slow economic growth is the inevitable result of the massive head winds that follow a recession caused by a banking and financial crisis. Government policies, given already heavy burdens of debt on governments in the U.S., Europe and Japan, can’t overcome the relentless efforts of households and banks to reduce their debt loads.”
It would be fascinating to read how future historians and economists analyze this era and the decisions made by government and business leaders.
– Jay Bookman
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904 comments Add your comment
Butch Cassidy
August 29th, 2011
12:37 pm
1811/0311 – “No ………………… until Obama is gone.”
But wait, what if the business owners that support Obama don’t “trust” the new guy? Do they then lay off all their people until a “trustworthy” candidate comes along to their liking? And if so, wouldn’t that pretty much just keep us where we are for another 4 – 8 years?
Fred
August 29th, 2011
12:37 pm
md: “Have to agree with TD…….what’s the difference other than one has a middle man and one doesn’t?”
The difference is that the “middleman” is the working class Americans.
Thulsa Doom
August 29th, 2011
12:37 pm
Butch Cassidy,
When Home Depot co-founder Bernie Marcus says that they couldn’t start Home Depot in today’s regulatory environment I tend to believe the man. And when billionaire businessman Steve Wynn- a former Obama supporter, and Donald Trump echo the same things and state that they have many CEO friends who believe the same thing but are too afraid to say it then I believe them. And I believe these men have just a tad bit more credibility on the subject of business and creating jobs then say….you.
Granny Godzilla
August 29th, 2011
12:39 pm
Thanks Jay for not making the consumer spending report look like it might be a flickering light of hope.
If you had done that the GOP would then be forced the legislate a way to snuff it out.
Bruno
August 29th, 2011
12:40 pm
That’s as stupid as saying “Perry didn’t say he supports creationism, he just said that both are taught in school because a kid is smart enough to know which is true
For the record, Adam, I definitely support presenting Intelligent Design alongside of (blind) Evolution in Biology class as a possible explanation of how this world became so incredibly organized. ID makes more sense to me than believing that an interminable number of random events led directly to the incredible layers of organization which make up our Universe. And just to remind you, ID /= to Creationism, because it doesn’t presuppose a Creator.
what exactly is “lack of sophistication” about that?
You’ll have to check with Jay about that, since that has been one of his constant drumbeats since the S & P downgraded our credit rating. And though he has written more than one article highlighting his interpretation of the S & P report in regards to Republican culpability, he has yet to address the main thrust of their opinion, that not enough spending was slashed. According to other articles Jay has written, our level of spending today is nothing to worry about.
Joe the Plutocrat
August 29th, 2011
12:40 pm
Scout, thanks for the referral, but again; my point was not whether or not Oswald shot JFK or acted alone, but simply that the Federal Government releases “cover” stories all the time. Ask gary Francis Powers about the “weather research” missions he was flying in his U-2. here’s another book for you; it’s called The Puzzle Palace (about the NSA, it referred Thulsa to it earlier). in the early days of the Cold War, the US (NSA) was trying to determine the radar capabilities of the USSR’s air defence system in Europe,; so American pilots were ordered to “probe” the system, which provided great insight as to the technologies being used by the Rooskies. well, sometimes these planes were shot down, and pilots were killed or captured; but the story told at home was “training accident” or even worse; “pilot error”. then, when the wall came down and certain Soviet and US files were declassified; new stories were proferred.
ragnar danneskjold
August 29th, 2011
12:40 pm
Dear Adam @ 12:35, we agree. Leftist dreams are always businessmen’s nightmares.
Kamchak
August 29th, 2011
12:41 pm
The rest of the story:
“I haven’t decided who I’m going to vote for,” Powell said on CBS’ “Face the Nation.” “Just as was the case in 2008, I am going to watch the campaign unfold. In the course of my life I have voted for Democrats, I have voted for Republicans, I have changed from one four-year cycle to another.
“I’ve always felt it my responsibility as a citizen to take a look at the issues, examine the candidates, and pick the person that I think is best qualified for the office of the president in that year. And not just solely on the basis of party affiliation,” he said.
Always best to look beyond the gooey Drudgey goodness.
md
August 29th, 2011
12:41 pm
“Money that the public sector spends ends up being returned to the private sector and aids profits in the private sector.””
And bear in mind, the public sector has no funds TO spend……they must first be generated by the private sector…………
Jefferson
August 29th, 2011
12:43 pm
Things are picking up.
stands for decibels
August 29th, 2011
12:43 pm
No one will hire as long as leftists have dreams….
Setting aside that the market-based, republican-advanced Cap and Trade ideas are a “leftist’s dream.”
The sky in Raggy’s world must be a lovely shade of magenta.
stands for decibels
August 29th, 2011
12:44 pm
Always best to look beyond the gooey Drudgey goodness.
but, enough about what’s under that smelly hat.
md
August 29th, 2011
12:44 pm
“so businesses are hoarding cash because of uncertainty…but if there were a temporary holiday that would allow corporations to repatriate offshore funds at a 0% ratte (as endorsed by Bachmann and Perrry), then suddenly a trillion dollars would be back in the US and jobs would be created.”
Common sense dictates that bringing it home and putting it in the bank @ .5-1% would be better than to leave it offshore to generate 0%………………..
Thulsa Doom
August 29th, 2011
12:44 pm
Fred,
No. Md is talking about the middleman being a whole governmental bureaucracy that takes money from the private sector, then disburses in the form of various bureaucracies, or which then is funneled back in the form of various governmental spending projects which by their very nature are slow moving, plodding efforts. If you don’t believe that then you should listen to Obama when he joked about those shovel ready jobs projects not being quite as shovel ready as they thought. If you want stimulus spending you are much better off just plain confiscating less of what the private sector generates- and not just wealth creators like entrepreneurs but also the middle class in the form of tax cuts. The only difference being that you cut out the middleman which of course means more efficiency which should be what we want- Everyone except that nanny state of course which hates to see its power and control over people diminished.
Jefferson
August 29th, 2011
12:45 pm
Close Robbins AFB and you will see what the public sector spending does…
Jack
August 29th, 2011
12:47 pm
We have a real economist among us: dead money he says is the cause for recession. Start or run a corporation, Bookman, then you can decide what’s best for the economy.
md
August 29th, 2011
12:47 pm
“The difference is that the “middleman” is the working class Americans.”
No Fred……..the gov’t is the middleman………why buy at retail when one can buy wholesale?
Keep Up the Good Fight!
August 29th, 2011
12:47 pm
When .. Bernie Marcus says that they couldn’t start Home Depot in today’s regulatory environment I tend to believe the man. And when … Steve Wynn…, and Donald Trump echo the same things …then I believe them. And I believe these men have just a tad bit more credibility on the subject of business and creating jobs then say… I chose not to believe Warran Buffet or other patriotic millionaires or many others who disagree with my beliefs and opinions. Of course, I beleive the opinions that match with my predetermined mindset
Thanks for playing!
Granny Godzilla
August 29th, 2011
12:48 pm
Steve Wynn this last July:
We had a great first quarter, the best in our history. And we went through it — we were just around $400 million in the first quarter. We are $447 million this time, and that quarter was about 59% better than a year ago. And in fact, for the 6 months, we’re 62% better than a year ago. We are all, in this organization, heartened by the results.
Joe Mama
August 29th, 2011
12:49 pm
Mr. Danneskold — “the constant threat of higher energy costs, due to micromanagement by EPA and the leftist cap-and-tax dream.”
Are you claiming that current high consumer energy prices are solely or primarily attributable to those two specific causes?
md
August 29th, 2011
12:57 pm
Adam……just an fyi…..but that hc bill has been a “dream” for a very long time………..and took precedence over jobs……………….even after Obama said it wouldn’t at his SOTU……
Adam
August 29th, 2011
12:59 pm
Bruno: And just to remind you, ID /= to Creationism, because it doesn’t presuppose a Creator.
Making MORE stupid arguments doesn’t help your original argument.
Intelligent Design isn’t science, and therefore does not belong in a science classroom. It is faith based, and does, in fact, pre-suppose a creator. And don’t give me any of that “science is faith too” bullsh*t. No it isn’t.
This is the exact same type of argument you are making with the where’s your plan thing.
Adam
August 29th, 2011
1:01 pm
md: Did I say anything about the hc bill? I’m talking about DREAMS md, DREAMS. You know, the kind that don’t get votes, but somehow scare the pants off the entire business community FORCING them, F O R C I N G THEM, to hold on to their massive cash reserves and not hire anyone. Because they are just so scared that ONE DAY, in the DISTANT FUTURE, there might be a law out there that does something that is surely evil.
md
August 29th, 2011
1:02 pm
“It is faith based, and does, in fact, pre-suppose a creator.”
And so does evolution……goes back to that concept of a starting point………
Adam
August 29th, 2011
1:03 pm
Scout: BTW, something else Colin Powell said
Thulsa Doom
August 29th, 2011
1:03 pm
keep up,
I’m always here to help you out. Warren Buffett? I believe Wingfield had a thing or 2 to say about Buffett a week or so ago.
At first glance, Buffett seems to have made the case for “millionaires and billionaires” not paying their “fair share.” But let’s look a bit further:
In 1992, using Buffett’s figures, the top 400 would have paid $4.9 billion in taxes. That’s a little less than half a percentage point of all federal revenues at the time (which includes more than just personal income taxes).
In 2008, the top 400 would have paid $19.5 billion in taxes. That’s about three-quarters of a percentage point of all federal revenues.
So, the top 400 in 2008 paid more in taxes than they earned in 1992. And their share of all tax revenues rose by one-half. But that’s not the way Buffett wants us to look at things. How much more would the “mega-rich” have paid on their 2008 earnings at 1992 effective rates?
Well, if the top 400 in 2008 had paid taxes at the same rate they did in 1992, 29.2 percent, the U.S. Treasury’s take would have increased by…
…drum roll, please…
…a whopping…
…staggering…
…soaring…
…$7 billion.
Which represents about four-tenths of a percentage point of this year’s $1.5 trillion deficit.
As I wrote once before: A tenth here, a tenth there — pretty soon, you’re talking about a whole percentage point! In fact, add it to President Obama’s hated tax break for corporate jet owners and you’re almost at 1 percent of the problem.
Now, Buffett also wrote that he supports creating two new tax brackets, at $1 million and $10 million. He didn’t suggest any rates for these brackets, so we can’t analyze what his proposal would mean in terms of revenue.
But we can apply the effective rates in 2000, the last full year of the Clinton-era rates, to the income reported in Buffett’s $1 million and $10 million brackets in 2009. There were 236,883 filers in those brackets that year, the top 1.7 percent of all filers.
Do that, and 2009 revenue would have increased by…
…wait for it…
…$14.4 billion.
That’s just under 1 percent of this year’s $1.5 trillion deficit.
out of the blue
August 29th, 2011
1:03 pm
Here is a republican congressman trying to explain Bush’s tax cuts!
He can’t!
Hilarious
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN5cdoSEDkU&feature=player_embedded
Adam
August 29th, 2011
1:04 pm
md: No, Evolution does no such thing. In order to do that, evolution would have to attempt to explain more than just how species change into other species over time. It does not attempt to explain anything EXCEPT that.
Why is this so hard to understand?
md
August 29th, 2011
1:04 pm
“Did I say anything about the hc bill? I’m talking about DREAMS md, DREAMS.”
And what do you not understand about the hc bill also being a DREAM at a given point in time??
Some dreams do become reality………..and that is the point.
Paul
August 29th, 2011
1:04 pm
md
me regarding Rep Cantor’s list of regulations: “That’s a decision, not a regulation. And the interviewer let it slide. As I said, a terrible interview.”
you: “And I disagree’
Disagree all you will, it doesn’t change there is a difference between an agency regulation and an NLRB decision.
Adam
August 29th, 2011
1:05 pm
Thulsa Doom: $7 billion
Wow, what a piddly amount. You’d only have to cut 7000 NPRs to make that up!
Adam
August 29th, 2011
1:05 pm
md: Some dreams do become reality………..and that is the point.
Your point………………………………………………………… is moot
md
August 29th, 2011
1:06 pm
“It does not attempt to explain anything EXCEPT that.
Why is this so hard to understand?”
Because common sense dictates it has to have a starting point…………..so the science basically leads to a dead end……………
Bruno
August 29th, 2011
1:06 pm
And from my viewpoint, he has been blocked at every turn. I don’t use the term “party of no” as a catch phrase.
Fred–A lot of political hay has been made about the increased number of cloture votes the past few years, but I think it’s much ado about nothing. When a political party has no power, as the Repubs did the first two years of Obama’s reign, the threat of a filibuster is the only power they have to influence legislation. However, since there is a mechanism in place, the cloture vote, to end filibusters, then I see it as just one more yin-yang. Ultimately, legislation has to stand on its own merit, no political stunt by itself can stop it. And considering the number of sweeping reforms, including ObamaCare, that were passed the first two years, it’s hard to see how Republican “obstructionism” has had any real effect.
You seem to be a very intelligent man Bruno, why do you tote the party line much in the same way as mindless automatons do?
I choose my politics the same way everyone else does: by choosing what serves my interests bests. As an independent businessperson, I’m solidly in the “tax contributor” category of citizens, but rarely in the “tax beneficiary” column. As such, I generally go with the political party which advocates lower taxes and less spending. Pretty simple. Does that mean that I vote 100% Republican?? Heck no. And does that mean that I support every plank and policy of the Republicans?? Double heck no, especially when it comes to firm separation of religion and politics.
Doggone/GA
August 29th, 2011
1:07 pm
“Why is this so hard to understand?”
I’m still trying to figure out how the presence of an “intelligence” to do the “designing” does NOT presuppose a creator!
md
August 29th, 2011
1:08 pm
“Disagree all you will, it doesn’t change there is a difference between an agency regulation and an NLRB decision.”
Unless the decision actually leads to a regulation………………
Adam
August 29th, 2011
1:09 pm
md: A single scientific theory to explain everything that ever happened or will happen DOES NOT EXIST. Does that mean the theories are all dead ends? Maybe in your OPINION they do, but not in reality. If you want to go back to the dark ages, I am afraid science hasn’t found a way to time travel yet. Maybe you should just pray for it instead. Let me know how that works.
Paul
August 29th, 2011
1:09 pm
md
Did it?
Thulsa Doom
August 29th, 2011
1:09 pm
Adam,
I’m as cool with public dollars going to support a liberal show like NPR as you would be if public dollars funded Rush Limbaugh.
Next please….
md
August 29th, 2011
1:09 pm
I don’t like your point, so I relegate it to the moot pile………..
You are such a funny fellow Adam…………..
Adam
August 29th, 2011
1:10 pm
Doggone: I’m still trying to figure out how the presence of an “intelligence” to do the “designing” does NOT presuppose a creator!
I can help with that.
It DOES pre-suppose a creator.
stands for decibels
August 29th, 2011
1:11 pm
a liberal show like NPR
NPR is a “show?”
Adam
August 29th, 2011
1:11 pm
md: Any “What if” and “maybe in the future, someday” points are basically moot. If you’re a businessman so fickle as to be fearing such things, then you shouldn’t be in business to start with. Business is, to a large degree, about risk taking. If you can’t take the heat, get out of the fire.
Adam
August 29th, 2011
1:13 pm
Thulsa Doom: Right. We have to start somewhere. Why not cut NPR, it’s a whole MILLION dollars towards the treasury! But taxing the top 400, which would have gotten such a piddly $7 billion, we can’t do THAT…..
In other words, $1 million is greater than $7 billion in the Tea Party mindset.
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
August 29th, 2011
1:14 pm
Well, who cares about consumer spending? I checked at lunch and my beer stocks are thru the roof. I’m going to be a rich man one day and just pay a 15% tax rate. When the market goes down, people guzzle to drown their miseries. When it goes up, they guzzle to sellabrate. Either way I get rich. I feel real Republican today.
I see a new doublewide and a very big pickup truck in my future. And what the heck, might as well go for a new 52″ flat screen.
Have a good p.m. everybody.
md
August 29th, 2011
1:14 pm
Adam……..and what exactly is being taught with evolution?
Part of an equation??
What good is that?
Thulsa Doom
August 29th, 2011
1:15 pm
Granny Godzilla,
During a recession certain stocks tend to do well such as the sin stocks- specifically alcohol and I would guess gambling. Its well known that people drink more during hard economic times and I would assume they probably gamble more-hoping they can make back 10 times what they don’t have in order to pay the bills. No surprise there with the earnings report.
1811/0311
August 29th, 2011
1:15 pm
“American opinion of the federal government has sunk to an all-time low, with impressions of the public sector ranked dead last among 25 business and industry sectors for the first time, according to a new poll.”
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0811/62216.html#ixzz1WRHwjqAk
Adam
August 29th, 2011
1:16 pm
md: Science. Science is being taught. If you can’t find the value in that, then you still don’t understand what science is.
md
August 29th, 2011
1:17 pm
“Any “What if” and “maybe in the future, someday” points are basically moot.”
I’m guessing you’ve never done any forecasting…………most all of it done on “what if’s” and “may be’s”…………
md
August 29th, 2011
1:19 pm
“Science. Science is being taught. If you can’t find the value in that, then you still don’t understand what science is.”
yes Adam……..incomplete science…….for it is what we think we know as of today………..
Doesn’t change the fact that it is only teaching part of the equation………with the other part unknown………..not subject to change anytime soon.
Joe Mama
August 29th, 2011
1:20 pm
md — “Because common sense dictates it has to have a starting point…………..so the science basically leads to a dead end……………”
Are you suggesting that evolution seeks to explain the origin of the universe? If so, you’re definitely off base.
The theory of evolution and modern cosmological thought are two completely different and disconnected animals.
Bruno
August 29th, 2011
1:22 pm
I’m still trying to figure out how the presence of an “intelligence” to do the “designing” does NOT presuppose a creator!
Doggone and Fred–In it’s purest form, ID does NOT postulate a Creator. From Wiki:
“Intelligent design arguments are formulated in secular terms and intentionally avoid identifying the intelligent agent (or agents) they posit. Although they do not state that God is the designer, the designer is often implicitly hypothesized to have intervened in a way that only a god could intervene. Dembski, in The Design Inference, speculates that an alien culture could fulfill these requirements. Of Pandas and People proposes that SETI illustrates an appeal to intelligent design in science. In 2000, philosopher of science Robert T. Pennock suggested the Raëlian UFO religion as a real-life example of an extraterrestrial intelligent designer view that “make[s] many of the same bad arguments against evolutionary theory as creationists”.[63] The authoritative description of intelligent design,[n 12] however, explicitly states that the Universe displays features of having been designed. Acknowledging the paradox, Dembski concludes that “no intelligent agent who is strictly physical could have presided over the origin of the universe or the origin of life”.[64] The leading proponents have made statements to their supporters that they believe the designer to be the Christian God, to the exclusion of all other religions.”
The bottom line is that many, maybe even most, proponents of ID like to extend the theory to include their own personal Gods, but it’s not part of the descriptive statement which constitutes ID. And ultimately, that’s all ID is, a qualitative, descriptive statement. However, until some inherent properties of matter are discovered which explain self-organization, that is what we are stuck with.
Doggone/GA
August 29th, 2011
1:22 pm
“NPR is a “show?””
Let’s see, if a program on TV is a show…does that mean a program on radio is a hear?
md
August 29th, 2011
1:22 pm
“Are you suggesting that evolution seeks to explain the origin of the universe? If so, you’re definitely off base.”
I’m suggesting we have no clue………………..
Granny Godzilla
August 29th, 2011
1:22 pm
Thulsa
I always enjoy it when you tell us what we already know.
That said it really is pretty cheesy of Mr. Wynn to complain about his gift horse ain’t it?
Thulsa Doom
August 29th, 2011
1:23 pm
Adam,
Tell ya what Adam. I’ll go along with what you guys want. Let’s do this. Lets take back the Bush tax cuts which according to the CBO cost the treasury 46 billion in FY 2011. Good. Now lets do as Buffet wants and lets tax those billionaires some more and raise that 14 billion. Now we’re up to 60 billion in revenue that we have raised by “taxing the rich”. Just like you guys want!
Considering that the FY2011 budget deficit was a projected 1.6 trillion we have now reduced the deficit all the way to 1.54 billion. We’ve taken back the Bush tax cuts and we just whacked Buffet and his friends and haven’t even made a serious dent in the deficit.
So tell me genius. Is the problem spending?? Or revenue-in other words the rich not paying their fair share???
Adam
August 29th, 2011
1:24 pm
md: The fact that science doesn’t already explain everything doesn’t mean squat. It’s still science, it’s still valid, it still produces facts and breakthroughs in practical terms. Regardless of how incomplete your OPINION of it is, the FACTS that science produces are not in dispute by rational, thinking human beings.
If you don’t like it, keep praying that you be transported back to the dark ages.
stands for decibels
August 29th, 2011
1:25 pm
Let’s see, if a program on TV is a show…does that mean a program on radio is a hear?
I swear, if we could harness the mighty power of ignorance on display regarding just NPR and Planned Parenthood alone, we’d probably have an energy source cheaper than Michelle Bachmann’s 2-buck-per-gallon gas.
Paul
August 29th, 2011
1:25 pm
Bruno
Also from Wiki:
“…leading to the 2005 Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District trial, where U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III ruled that intelligent design is not science, that it “cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents”, and that the school district’s promotion of it therefore violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.[18]
Contents”
Adam
August 29th, 2011
1:26 pm
Thulsa: I tell YOU what. When you come back with numbers that are accurate, then we’ll have a discussion about it.
Butch Cassidy
August 29th, 2011
1:27 pm
Thulsa Doom – “And I believe these men have just a tad bit more credibility on the subject of business and creating jobs then say….you.”
Really, and after all the background I have given you as to my experience, education, political beliefs and shoe size? Oh wait, I’ve told you nothing that could possibly lead you to such a broad generalization such as the above statement.
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
August 29th, 2011
1:28 pm
Well, I see the Rev. Warren Jeffs has been put in a hospitle from prison. When I saw the headline I thought maybe he found a 12 year old girl in his cell and hurt hisself with all the contortions but they say he wasn’t eating or drinking enough and had some other medical problems.
Anyway, just thought all you Mormons would like to know, since you won’t be getting any votes for your guy in GA and need something to read about. We don’t cotton much down here to politicans that ain’t Southren Baptist or Holiness.
Perry-Bachmann in 2012. They’ll pray your gay ass straight. You’ll be in divorce court with the rest of us pretty soon. And not because you’re gay married.
Thulsa Doom
August 29th, 2011
1:28 pm
Granny,
I also think that Wynn is raking in profits because his company is not doing any expansion- which costs enormous sums of money. And also because of the recession they are not investing in new hiring, training, etc. which only fattens the bottom line. But they are still making lots of cash on desperate folks- and there are plenty of them in the Obama economy.
Wynn’s point isn’t that he and his company aren’t making money. His point was that there are no plans to expand or invest in new gaming equipment, personnel, or new casinos due to the bleak economic picture and the regulatory environment under Obama. That is the point that completely seems to go over the head of the liberals on this blog.
Dusty
August 29th, 2011
1:29 pm
Well, a long discussion on what most of us already know.
There is a heavy pall over business and it is Obama. He has spent too much government money without results. He wants to spend more. Even the general public knows that does not work when you are broke.
Obama’s budget plans: Rejected first. Never on paper next. I’d love to pay bills with unwritten & unsent checks.
There is no confidence. “Obama” may become the root of a new verb. Everything that doesn’t work may be “obamarized”. The economy has been “obamrized”.
Joe Mama
August 29th, 2011
1:30 pm
md — “I’m suggesting we have no clue………………..”
Evolution doesn’t *attempt* to explain the origin of the universe at all. It’s simply not even in the same ballpark.
Evolution’s more concerned with the changes that living species experience over time, not the cosmological forces involved in the formation and aging of stars, planets, etc.
And not knowing the whole story doesn’t render our knowledge irrelevant. A kid can go to college, get a degree in electrical engineering and learn how to design all sorts of modern techno-wonderment. But he doesn’t need to learn how to *manufacture* semiconductors or any other component in order to do that.
1811/0311
August 29th, 2011
1:30 pm
“If you use tools on it, you have profaned it.” Ex. 20:25
“God’s altar was to be built of unhewn stones, that no trace of human skill or labor might be seen on it.”
“Human wisdom however, trims and arranges the doctrines of the cross into an artificial system that is more congenial to the depraved tastes of the fallen nature. But instead of improving the gospel, carnal wisdom contaminates it and invents another gospel that is not the truth of God. Any alteration or ammendment to the Lord’s own Word defiles it.”
“The proud heart is eager to have a part in the justification of its soul …………. humblings, and repentings are trusted, good works are celebrated, natural ability is flaunted, and by every means that heart attempts to place human tools on the divine altar.”
“Trembling sinner, put your tools away and fall on your knees in humble supplication. Accept the Lord Jesus alone to be the altar of your atonement.”
Charles Spurgeon
Thulsa Doom
August 29th, 2011
1:30 pm
Butch Cassidy,
I stand corrected. I had no idea that you were one of the movers and shakers in the world like Trump or Bernie Marcus, that you’ve made a billion dollars, or that you have given jobs to tens of thousands of people. My mistake.
1811/0311
August 29th, 2011
1:31 pm
Macro-evolution
Micro-evolution
Big difference
1811/0311
August 29th, 2011
1:32 pm
Job 26:7
” ……………. he hangs the earth upon nothing”.
Bruno
August 29th, 2011
1:32 pm
If you want to go back to the dark ages, I am afraid science hasn’t found a way to time travel yet. Maybe you should just pray for it instead.
Doesn’t change the fact that it is only teaching part of the equation………with the other part unknown………..not subject to change anytime soon.
Adam–I think you are wrongly characterizing md’s and my own views regarding Science. He and I are merely pointing out the limitations that are built-in to scientific inquiry, limitations so severe that we will likely never be able to answer some of the deepest questions that stir our souls with any certainty. You are wrongly equating this viewpoint with outright rejection of Science and full-on acceptance of Religion. I’m about as non-religious as they come, and md has squarely placed himself in the agnostic category in the past.
So, what is motivating your mis-characterization??
Joe Mama
August 29th, 2011
1:33 pm
1811 — “Macro-evolution
Micro-evolution
Big difference”
And yet they’re the same, in that neither one addresses cosmology in any way.
md
August 29th, 2011
1:33 pm
“Regardless of how incomplete your OPINION of it is, the FACTS that science produces are not in dispute by rational, thinking human beings.”
I think you are confusing the process with the origins of the process……………science can only explain what we currently know under the terms we currently understand………….
There is no opinion to it Adam…….we don’t have a clue about the ENTIRE process of evolution……..one can’t leave out the starting point and expect people to not have questions……….
A Face in the Crowd
August 29th, 2011
1:34 pm
ADAM
You are, I hope, aware that your didacticism and dogmatic approach to this question are as limited and as dangerous as any Medieval pope, are you not?
out of the blue
August 29th, 2011
1:35 pm
Dusty and Mr 1811……
Reach out and pray with congress woman Bachmann!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385×612708
Fantasia
August 29th, 2011
1:36 pm
“While that’s good news, a double-dip recession is still a very real danger.”
Wrong as usual Jay. A year ago – last summer – when everyone was predicting a double-dip recession it truly would have been a double-dip due to the elapsed time since the June 2009 official end of the “great” recession. Now it would be a whole new recession, not a continuation of the prior one, since we’ve had an intervening 2+ year recovery cycle. But, agreed, not good whatever you call it.
Fred
August 29th, 2011
1:36 pm
Bruno: “Doggone and Fred–In it’s purest form, ID does NOT postulate a Creator. “
Huh? How did I get dragged into this silly “argument?”
I haven’t typed a word about it. Other than stating i am firm in MY faith and dislike churches, the other day, I haven’t had more than three words to say on religion anywhere on this blog. Whether it’s the atheists and THEIR “holy crusade” to ridicule people of faith, or the “staunch Christians” with their holy crusade to beat people over the head with their bibles and force them to Jesus, or the “pseudo-Christians” with their weird hand picked version, I pretty much keep to myself my opinions and try to respect ALL for their particular brand of lunacy. As I would hope they would respect mine. I eams as Jesus himself once said, “Be excellent to each other.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7532GXPnO8
Granny Godzilla
August 29th, 2011
1:37 pm
Thulsa
You may be interpreting Mr. Wynn correctly.
So am I. Pretty cheesy.
Joe the Plutocrat
August 29th, 2011
1:38 pm
md, …well, there you go again. it’s the Treaury Department’s “money”. here’s how it works; the private sector has markets, and in these markets; good and services are exchanged for currency (money). through the rampant deregulation from 1981 – 2001; the stage was set for the major banks and investment houses to essentially “trade” debts (neither goods, nor services). this is how ‘asset bubbles’ are (purposely) created. the traders on Wall Street (via enabling from the Central Bank, which controls the “value” of the currency via interest rates and worthless IOUs) literally INFLATE the value of an asset (sometimes real estate, sometimes tech stocks, sometimes gold, sometimes securitized mortgages). then, these very same traders stop the music and whomever is left without a “chair” (usually the American taxpayer) pays the tab. right now; gold is the being inflated; and if you noticed last week, there was a toothless attempt to stop the speculation, as the SEC or some useless regulatory agency increased the amount of collateral one needs to borrow money to buy gold. perhaps investors have learned something from the past 30 years, but again, it all goes back to the “lending” (or debt fueled consumption, which is an economic time bomb) and debt fueled consumption is “fueled” by the Federal Reserve bank.
Thulsa Doom
August 29th, 2011
1:39 pm
Adam,
Numbers that are accurate? Really? The numbers I posted are from the CBO which stated 46 billion is what the Bush tax cuts cost us from last year. Are you saying the CBO is lying?
Lemme give you some other numbers Adam which you can look up yourself via the IRS website. If we tax the top 1% of the U.S. households, nearly a million households- 971,000 to be exact, at a 100% clip, taking everything they earned, we would reduce the deficit by raising 622 billion dollars. So once again if the projected 2011 deficit was 1 trillion and we raise 622 billion then we still have roughly nearly 1 trillion in annual deficits that we are still running. So once again I ask you Mr. genius is the problem spening or revenue??? And if you disagree with the CBO or the IRS then take it up with them. Its their numbers.
Dusty
August 29th, 2011
1:39 pm
Oh come on. Not another evolution discussion. I like science myself with God behind the science. If you don’t like that, fine. Go find your own “thing” to believe in. Might as well because there are no concrete answers, only faith, study and your own convictions.
Carry on. I’ve got to pick up my car at the dealership. Talk about “faith”. I hope they know what they are doing!
Butch Cassidy
August 29th, 2011
1:40 pm
Thulsa Doom – “I stand corrected. I had no idea that you were one of the movers and shakers in the world like Trump or Bernie Marcus, that you’ve made a billion dollars, or that you have given jobs to tens of thousands of people. My mistake.Z”
I haven’t given you enough information to draw any legitimate conclusions either way.
Bruno
August 29th, 2011
1:40 pm
Are you suggesting that evolution seeks to explain the origin of the universe? If so, you’re definitely off base.
Joe Mama–Perhaps it’s a bit of laziness to not be more explicit, but most critics of the Scientific explanations of cosmology and the origins of life like to roll Big Bang Theory in with Evolution Theory. Strictly speaking, Darwin’s original theory only dealt with changes which occur in established species, and didn’t address any origin of life questions. However, by accepting the proposed driving mechanism behind those changes, i.e. randomness, it’s not a big leap to project that random origin all the way back to the moment of ex nihilo , i.e. something from nothing.
As an avowed atheist, how do you explain “something from nothing” ??
Joe Mama
August 29th, 2011
1:40 pm
md — “…….we don’t have a clue about the ENTIRE process of evolution……..one can’t leave out the starting point and expect people to not have questions………”
Come now. Modern science is about nothing BUT questions. Scientists question each other and their own assumptions all the time. When a theory with better support and better fit comes along, the old theory goes out the window.
You seem to be positing some sort of dogmatism on the part of scientists. I can assure that’s not so for the vast majority of them.
Fred
August 29th, 2011
1:42 pm
PS (refering to my 1:36): I have no idea what that “I eams” at the start of my last sentence means or was supposed to mean. I think the blog goblin inserted it………..
Thulsa Doom
August 29th, 2011
1:42 pm
Granny Godzilla,
Whatever our politics lib or con the billionaires, whether they be lib or con, they will always make their coin. As Joe the Plutocrat likes to point out it often has nothing to do with either of the 2 parties since both are bought and paid for and is more a reflection of the plutocracy that runs the nation.
Good little liberal
August 29th, 2011
1:48 pm
Joe Mama
“Come now. Modern science is about nothing BUT questions. Scientists question each other and their own assumptions all the time. When a theory with better support and better fit comes along, the old theory goes out the window.”
I agree. But the problem, at least for me, is when people on a political blog insist that a certain science is a decided science. CLIMATE CHANGE WAS CREATED BY MAN. THERE CAN’T BE ANY DEBATE, ITS SETTLED. EVOLUTION IS DECIDED. THERE CAN’T BE ANY DISCUSSION.
I have offered this argument for a long time, but for some reason, the left always insist that what the believe has always been proven and there is simply no reason to think otherwise.
1811/0311
August 29th, 2011
1:49 pm
• The Fossil Record
• Living “Fossils”
• The Cambrian Explosion
• New T.Rex Discoveries
• “Missing Links”
• There are many creatures that defy evolution. All of the examples below illustrate complex and sophisticated biological structures. It is difficult to believe that these creatures could have evolved, since all of their systems had to have been in place at the start for them to survive.
Human Eye
Angler Fish
Chicken Egg
Beaver
Giraffe
Black And Yellow Garden Spider
Incubator Bird
Bombardier Beetle
Woodpecker
Granny Godzilla
August 29th, 2011
1:49 pm
Thulsa
Call me an idealist or a dreamer…I do not subscibe to the myth
that they are all bad.
If they are, then as our representatives we are too.
And I am quite sure I am not.
1811/0311
August 29th, 2011
1:50 pm
P.S.
http://www.straight-talk.net/evolution/arguments.shtml
Bruno
August 29th, 2011
1:51 pm
leading to the 2005 Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District trial, where U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III ruled that intelligent design is not science, that it “cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents”
Paul, I’m aware of the reasoning that the Judge in Delaware used to make his ruling. Which doesn’t change the fact that I think it was an incorrect ruling. Why?? Because our “established Science” is inadequate to explain the cosmology and the origin of life. Even the proposed driving force behind Darwin’s limited micro-Evolution has never been proved. As such, I think it’s most honest to simply acknowledge that there is an intelligence which pervades the Universe which we are unable to explain.
1811/0311
August 29th, 2011
1:52 pm
“Evolution is Religion — Not Science”
“In no way does the idea of particles-to-people evolution meet the long-accepted criteria of a scientific theory. There are no such evolutionary transitions that have ever been observed in the fossil record of the past; and the universal law of entropy seems to make it impossible on any significant scale.
Evolutionists claim that evolution is a scientific fact, but they almost always lose scientific debates with creationist scientists. Accordingly, most evolutionists now decline opportunities for scientific debates, preferring instead to make unilateral attacks on creationists.
The question is, just why do they need to counter the creationist message? Why are they so adamantly committed to anti-creationism?
The fact is that evolutionists believe in evolution because they want to. It is their desire at all costs to explain the origin of everything without a Creator. Evolutionism is thus intrinsically an atheistic religion. Some may prefer to call it humanism, and “new age” evolutionists place it in the context of some form of pantheism, but they all amount to the same thing. Whether atheism or humanism (or even pantheism), the purpose is to eliminate a personal God from any active role in the origin of the universe and all its components, including man.”
Thulsa Doom
August 29th, 2011
1:53 pm
md and Bruno,
Saw a good nova special last night on Fractal geometry and its implications regarding the natural world. The thesis of the program from a strictly scientific view was that there is an order and a repeating pattern in nature that can be shown mathematically.
I know others will disagree but part of the reason I believe in an infinite intelligence is because in just about every science or math program I watch on nova, discovery, etc. there is shown to be an order, a design, and a pattern to everything that we see. JMHO but its not something that in my view could possibly be an accident.
md
August 29th, 2011
1:54 pm
Joe mama…….nothing of the sort…….as I already stated……science is what we think we know as of today……….in respect to evolution, many present it as an alternative to religious origin……yet for all we ‘know’, they can be one and the same……………the science in inconclusive as to where the process began……………..
Joe the P………….agree with everything in your post……..so where am i going?
I understand the lemming game quite well…………and play the stock market accordingly…….I very rarely buy stocks because “everyone else is”…….same with gold. It will come down, and too many will wait too late to jump……………..
1811/0311
August 29th, 2011
1:55 pm
Bruno:
1) “leading to the 2005 Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District trial, where U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III ruled that intelligent design is not science, that it “cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents”
2) Preambles to the 50 State Constitutions:
http://www.theroadtoemmaus.org/RdLb/21PbAr/Pl/Cnst/StCnstPreAmb.htm
Kamchak
August 29th, 2011
1:57 pm
There is a heavy pall over business and it is Obama.
If only there was some way to quantify that “heavy pall.” You know maybe some indices that could measure the business climate when Obama took office and compare it to the present.
Good little liberal
August 29th, 2011
2:01 pm
Its very interesting that the ACLU has been filing much less suites to take religion out of public places. The reason? The ACLU lawyers make a killing when they win because part of the settlement is to pay the ridicules hourly wage of the blood sucking lawyers. Most municipalities just immediately fold and the lawyers get nothing.
Isn’t it amazing how noble these guys were about what they believe in until the money stopped rolling in.
Adam
August 29th, 2011
2:01 pm
Bruno: limitations so severe that we will likely never be able to answer some of the deepest questions that stir our souls with any certainty……So, what is motivating your mis-characterization??
Maybe I seem to be mischaracterizing your belief system, but that doesn’t really matter as much as the ridiculous idea that somehow a missing piece or a missing starting point means that there is some question as to the basis of the whole thing. That somehow, this invalidates the entire scientific theory.
Evolution is a very sound scientific theory that has been tested over and over and any new evidence found supports it, and doesn’t disprove it.
md: we don’t have a clue about the ENTIRE process of evolution
Yes we do. We have pretty damn good clues. That’s why it’s a theory.
A Face In the Crowd: You are, I hope, aware that your didacticism and dogmatic approach to this question are as limited and as dangerous as any Medieval pope, are you not?
What question are you referring to?
GLL: I have offered this argument for a long time, but for some reason, the left always insist that what the believe has always been proven and there is simply no reason to think otherwise.
1) It’s not “the left” that get on your case for this, but rational, scientific thinkers. Now you may be technically correct that questioning theories is a good thing – if done in a scientific way. This court of public opinion nonsense where people start claiming that the whole thing is corrupt and being made up, that is what is bullsh*t. If you can make a reasoned scientific argument AGAINST either Evolution or Climate Change then publish a paper and have it peer reviewed. Otherwise, yes, there isn’t a question as to the realities of evolution and climate change.
Scout: There are many creatures that defy evolution.
I’ll put this as simply as I can: On that you are incorrect.
Joe Mama
August 29th, 2011
2:02 pm
Bruno — “Joe Mama–Perhaps it’s a bit of laziness to not be more explicit, but most critics of the Scientific explanations of cosmology and the origins of life like to roll Big Bang Theory in with Evolution Theory.”
I know; I’ve seen that argument many times. I can’t explain it without presuming laziness (as you said), ignorance or willful mendacity. In most cases, I think ignorance is to blame; I would prefer not to label a polite and patient poster like md (though we often don’t agree) as lazy or mendacious.
“Strictly speaking, Darwin’s original theory only dealt with changes which occur in established species, and didn’t address any origin of life questions.”
Agreed.
“However, by accepting the proposed driving mechanism behind those changes, i.e. randomness,”
I don’t recall specifically — did Darwin propose any actual driving mechanism *at all?* It’s been years since I’ve read Darwin, but I don’t recall him identifying any sort of driver in the process.
“it’s not a big leap to project that random origin all the way back to the moment of ex nihilo , i.e. something from nothing.”
At the risk of sounding discourteous, IMO you’re doing the same thing as jm — just with better aim.
I’m sure you recognize that Darwin was just trying to make sense of his observations, and at some point he came to the realization that he was witnessing and documenting a process of nature. He wasn’t trying to explain where life came from — rather, he was trying to illuminate a process that he had observed it in, and which he felt it had been undergoing for some time (based on some observations of the fossil record). I think that the *implications* of what Darwin wrote about bothered many people at the time (and some even today), but as I recall, he was only trying to make sense of what he had seen and observed, and did an exceptionally good job of synthesizing the available data.
“As an avowed atheist, how do you explain “something from nothing” ??
I don’t, though biology isn’t my field. I would point out, however, that Darwin’s book was “On the Origin of Species,” not ‘On the Origin of Life.’
I feel pretty certain that life arose by means of some as-yet unknown and indeterminate process; perhaps we will discover it one day. Perhaps we may even discover species on other worlds whose appearance and biology are notably dissimilar to our own. On a day-to-day basis, though, I don’t give it much consideration. My sense is that, whatever the process is, it can continue to operate without any intervention on my part.
Thulsa Doom
August 29th, 2011
2:03 pm
Granny Godzilla,
Not sure if you were talking about politicians or billionaires not being all bad. Personally I think only a few of them from either group are necessarily bad people and its really not for me to judge. In regards to pols I just think that many of them are either misguided or naive in what they think govt can do to solve problems, or simply ill informed as to the consequences of their legislation. Many I think are well intentioned but due to the human flaw of arrogance they believe that they can solve people’s problems as opposed to people solving their own problems. And I think many of them lose touch with the common man once they go to Washington which is an inherently corrupt place. And I believe this applies to both parties whether we are talking about Republicans who think we can go win and a war and change a whole culture of people in the process- Iraq,Afgh. or the Democrats who think that big govt can fix people’s everyday problems. They are both usually wrong in my book.