Consumer spending up, but recession still a threat

From Reuters:

WASHINGTON – U.S. consumer spending rose
at its fastest pace in five months in July, backing views the
economy was not falling back into recession, although pending
sales of previously owned homes fell.

The Commerce Department said on Monday consumer spending
increased 0.8 percent on strong demand for motor vehicles,
after slipping 0.1 percent in June.

Economists had expected spending, which accounts for about
70 percent of U.S. economic activity, to rise 0.5 percent.

When adjusted for inflation, spending rose 0.5 percent last
month, the largest gain in 1-1/2 years and the first increase
since April.

cash

While that’s good news, a double-dip recession is still a very real danger. The sovereign-debt crisis in Europe continue to play out, and seems destined to result in at least one and possibly more defaults. The recent brinksmanship in Washington has raised doubts both here and abroad about the sophistication and sense of responsibility among much of our elected leadership. And while corporate profits and corporate cash holdings remain at record highs, that’s dead money taken out of circulation.

As a story in today’s Wall Street Journal puts it:

Economists at JPMorgan, in their weekly reprise of economic developments, blamed the recent global stock selloff on “a sense of policy paralysis in the U.S. and Europe, which has driven home the point that there is no cavalry to ride to the rescue.”

“Fiscal policy has turned restrictive and an additional sharp tightening lies just ahead in the U.S., while monetary authorities have exhausted much of their ammunition,” they said.

Officials on both sides of the Atlantic who orchestrated the response to the global financial crisis insist the world economy would have been worse had they not acted as they did. But it’s clear that the remedies didn’t deliver the recovery for which they hoped.

Some economists, among them Harvard UniversiItty’s Kenneth Rogoff, say today’s painfully slow economic growth is the inevitable result of the massive head winds that follow a recession caused by a banking and financial crisis. Government policies, given already heavy burdens of debt on governments in the U.S., Europe and Japan, can’t overcome the relentless efforts of households and banks to reduce their debt loads.”

It would be fascinating to read how future historians and economists analyze this era and the decisions made by government and business leaders.

– Jay Bookman

904 comments Add your comment

getalife

August 29th, 2011
11:11 am

Lets focus on recovering the 15 million jobs w lost before any cuts.

/Back to lurking .

carlosgvv

August 29th, 2011
11:15 am

“A double-dip recession is still a real danger”

Jay, the real danger is all our politicians and you telling us the recession ended some time ago. This is disingenuous, to say the least, since the truth is that while the recession may be over for Wall street, it is far from over for Main street. As long as unemployment stays at 9% the recession, as far as the people are concerned, is far from over.

Good little liberal

August 29th, 2011
11:18 am

Keep Up

Oh what a wicked web we weave, when we practice to deceive:

Keep Up the Good Fight!
August 23rd, 2011
8:51 pm

Now, now josef…we know that 100% of govt scientists don’t agree so obviously there is nothing to be concerned about.

Ironically, back in March following the devastating earthquake in Japan, Rep. Cantor stood by the Republican budget, which would cut funding from disaster warning systems like the U.S. Geological Service (USGS). According to the AP, Republican budget number crunchers had toyed with cutting the USGS altogether, but settled for $27 million in cuts this year as part of the draconian Ryan budget.

Seems Mother Earth is telling Republicans something…. after Jindal the Page spoke agains monitoring volcanoes.. volcano erupted in Alaska.

Good little liberal

August 29th, 2011
11:18 am

Keep Up

Again: Seems Mother Earth is telling Republicans something…. after Jindal the Page spoke agains monitoring volcanoes.. volcano erupted in Alaska.

And again: Seems Mother Earth is telling Republicans something…. after Jindal the Page spoke agains monitoring volcanoes.. volcano erupted in Alaska.

getalife

August 29th, 2011
11:19 am

Looks like lil lib needs to get a life.

Good little liberal

August 29th, 2011
11:21 am

Adam

From downstairs:

Well as long as your life is better than it was four years ago. To hell with the rest of the country.

Good little liberal

August 29th, 2011
11:21 am

getalife

How’s that Dog?

Good little liberal

August 29th, 2011
11:24 am

Jay

Do you think it would be OK if the republicans use the phrase “It’s The Economy, Stupid?”

That worked so well in putting Clinton into office. Bush, the elder was President when all the laws were being made by Democrats, but that phrase sure did turn it toward Bush. Think it would work on Obama?

Jay

August 29th, 2011
11:30 am

Carlos, “recession” has a definitive meaning in economics — an actual decline in economic activity — and we’re not in a recession now by that definition and haven’t been since the second quarter of 2009. The problem is that it fell for four consecutive quarters before that, declining a total of 4.8 percent adjusting for inflation.

For comparison’s sake, in the recession of the early ’80s, GDP fell by 2.7 percent. Serious, but nowhere near as bad as this one.

Keep Up the Good Fight!

August 29th, 2011
11:30 am

Ohh goody….I get to claim that the quote was taken out of context (notice the intentional lack of a link – :D ). So my sarcasm is now a basis to claim that I was the “wise person who blaimed the earth quake on the Republican’s attempt at cutting funding for the USGS” and then wants to attack my ability to think. Someone needs to work on their poutrate and reasoning. As I pointed out, the logic of GLL’s posts seems to be off as usual and very deceptive as usual. Thanks for proving your false claim and deception GLL!

But glad to know GLL follows me so very closely….. despite his protests otherwise. I

stands for decibels

August 29th, 2011
11:31 am

while corporate profits and corporate cash holdings remain at record highs, that’s dead money taken out of circulation.

why, Jay. How shrill.

Bruno

August 29th, 2011
11:32 am

The recent brinksmanship in Washington has raised doubts both here and abroad about the sophistication and sense of responsibility among much of our elected leadership.

Jay–I’ll give you the “lack of sophistication” charge as applied to the Republicans for threatening to not raise the debt limit, if you will own up to the “lack of responsibility” charge as applied to the Democrats for (1) not considering spending cuts and (2) not coming up with a budget of their own in more than 2 years.

Good little liberal

August 29th, 2011
11:32 am

Adam

Who else for president? I haven’t liked anyone since the Nixon administration. But Obama is a disaster. Perry would be great for the ratings on Letterman and Comedy Central. I have no problem with Bachman and religion, but she is just so much fodder for the networks that I think they would launch an attack like we have never seen. Same for Palin.

Personally, I think Trump is about to give Obama four more years. He will wait until the last minute, re-enter and drain off just enough votes.

ByteMe

August 29th, 2011
11:35 am

And while corporate profits and corporate cash holdings remain at record highs, that’s dead money taken out of circulation

Those same JPM charts (you can see many of them at ritholz.com) show that some of those record corporate profits are going toward capital expenditures, which is a good thing. But corporations are still sitting on a hoard of cash. Which is possibly what’s keeping Treasury yields so low… lots of corporate cash buying them up. Just a theory, but $1T of corporate cash isn’t just sitting in bank accounts earning nothing and they aren’t being invested in anything that’s not a “cash equivalent”.

Paulo977

August 29th, 2011
11:35 am

Good little liberal

August 29th, 2011
11:36 am

Keep Up

Lack of a link? I posted the date. What do you want? That brain might be giant, but maybe its just swollen from Mo slapping you on the noggin.

carlosgvv

August 29th, 2011
11:39 am

Jay – 11:30

I know your explanation is technically correct. However I would not recommend you go up to a large crowd at any job fair and say “we’re not in a recession now”, I’m pretty sure that would not go over too well!!

stands for decibels

August 29th, 2011
11:40 am

Interesting linked article, Jay, although it focuses more on worldwide efforts pretty much beyond even the imagined sphere of influence of your readership.

However, as to this paragraph…

In the U.S., President Barack Obama is promising another set of initiatives aimed at creating jobs, reducing unemployment (last reported at 9.1%) and targeting particularly the 4.4 million Americans who have been looking for work without success for a year or more. Congressional Republicans, however, are somewhere between unalterably opposed or skeptical about the sort of action that some economists—including several of Mr. Obama’s former advisers—are urging.

Here’s what our President can, and should, do now, to help right our economy.

http://www.tnr.com/article/economy/94112/bernstein-obama-stimulus-congress

read the whole thing, please. but if you can’t, at least retain this take-away…

“But … but … Congress will block him,” you say. On most of these ideas, probably so, though I’d put the renewal of the payroll tax cut at above 50 percent, and the unemployment insurance extension only slightly below half.

And, as for the rest of his plan, if Obama gets fired up around an agenda anything like the one I’ve outlined, and if he’s very clear about who, precisely, is standing between America and that jobs agenda, I think he’ll not only regain his footing and provide a stark contrast between himself and his opponents, but his fierce advocacy will give the country something to feel good about. And man, we really need that.

Paul

August 29th, 2011
11:40 am

As I’ve said, there are a few classic models and schools of thought on how to deal with the economy. The crisis hit, Reps and Dems supported the actions. Recession hit, Dems supported stimulus, Reps didn’t. Now Dems are left pondering ‘what will work?” while Reps repudiate their bailout votes, rail against the stim, but…. do NOT offer any hindsight assessment of what they would have done (other than ‘nothing’) nor do they have any concrete proposals on what will work.

And their constituents aren’t sharp enough to call them on it.

Heard a terrible interview on Fox while at the gym. Rep Eric Cantor was on, said House had sent a bill for $1 billion in disaster relief to the Senate. Was done with offsets.

Interviewer never asked him “what did you cut? Who will be affected by those cuts?”

I’d love to hear.

But the interviewer got real specific about Cantor’s list of Obama Regulations That Destroy American Business. First one read was the NLRB/Boeing decision.

That’s a decision, not a regulation. And the interviewer let it slide. As I said, a terrible interview.

Gator Joe

August 29th, 2011
11:41 am

Jay,
The Republicans in Congress, their candidates for the Presidency, and the corporate benefactors of both, would be happy to see the result of their efforts and actions, another recession, in the hopes the electorate will award them the White House, and the Congress, and by extension even more power for Big Business. One would have to be ignorant, mindless, brainwashed, or all three to not see this. The most laughable pawns in all this are the bigots who will be voting against their own self interest when they vote Republican, simply because there is a man of color in the White House.

Bruno

August 29th, 2011
11:42 am

From below:

But you are right about one thing: if government didn’t artifically raise the price of labor you and others could grow your businesses and hire more people.

If you think about it, it isn’t just businesses who hire in at minimum wage who are impacted when the minimum is raised. For businesses like mine, the “above minimum wage” pay scale is also shifted upward, so that future raises are hard to give. Especially in an economy in which increased revenues is very difficult to achieve. Hiring on additional workers is a huge consideration for small businesses, and now more than ever.

Bill Orvis White

August 29th, 2011
11:43 am

Washington needs to stop the $pending so that WE THE PEOPLE may have our money back so that we can choose what to do with our dollar$. You see, the key word here is giving every legal U.S. citizen choices such as where I can shop; what type of styrofoam cups I may purchase; where I can or will not send my kids to school (screwels); what road I choose to drive down; what doctor I can or will not see! If you want the gov’t to make those decisions for you, Liberal Jay and his friends, then look into packing up your 1980 Corollas and boarding it on a ship to your buddies’ countries like Cuba or Venezuela. It’s funny how you Communist liberals scream and shout for pregnant 10-year-olds to make a choice to end a life, but you won’t give basic choices to people when it comes to schools, attending churches or buying things.
Amen,
Bill

mike "hussein" smith

August 29th, 2011
11:45 am

I hope Bachmann doesn’t win because half the people in America are too stupid to spell her last name correctly.

@@

August 29th, 2011
11:46 am

The Commerce Department said on Monday consumer spending increased 0.8 percent on strong demand for motor vehicles, after slipping 0.1 percent in June.

So people financed new cars? No doubt, monthly payments will put a damper on other spending. I hope they don’t lose their jobs.

Good little liberal

August 29th, 2011
11:47 am

stands for decibels

Really interesting article. LOL!!

So here we are, the car is speeding toward the cliff, GIVE IT MORE GAS!!!!!!!!

The Titanic is already wounded, but not sinking yet. Damn those icebergs. FULL SPEED AHEAD!!!!

Seriously? Do what we have been doing to destroy the economy except do it bigger?

I ned to go to lunch while I still have an appetite.

Adam

August 29th, 2011
11:49 am

GLL: Well as long as your life is better than it was four years ago. To hell with the rest of the country.

Now what in my post made you think that I think THAT?

stands for decibels

August 29th, 2011
11:50 am

GLL @ 11.47 your childish, fact-free assertions, complete with multiple exclamation points aside–you don’t seem to understand that government spending is not evil. It is especially not-evil when we still have an intolerable percentage of Americans who are unemployed.

When you grow up a little bit and come to recognize this fact, maybe we can have the discussion you so crave (it’s obvious that few if any people deign to speak to you in real life). Until then, bon appetit.

Keep Up the Good Fight!

August 29th, 2011
11:53 am

Adam, GLL is doing his WOW this morning. If you can’t attack posts on the reality of posts then distort them to something he can try to attack. Its not what he thinks you think or even what you stated, the attack is to intentionally distort what you said.

Tommy Maddox

August 29th, 2011
11:54 am

Consumer spending up?

Government spending way way up.

Not good…

Adam

August 29th, 2011
11:54 am

GLL: I haven’t liked anyone since the Nixon administration. But Obama is a disaster

You guys really are hilarious. “I don’t know who to run, even in my own party, will you please find someone for me?”

Bruno

August 29th, 2011
11:54 am

read the whole thing, please. but if you can’t, at least retain this take-away…

I read the article looking for something substantial, stands, but found no specifics. Same old, same old government stimulus rhetoric. Since it didn’t work the first time, what makes you think it will work the second, third, fourth or fifth?? Maybe you should heed the words of the American people after the New Deal failed to curb persistent unempolyment:

“When the Gallup poll in 1939 asked, ‘Do you think the attitude of the Roosevelt administration toward business is delaying business recovery?’ the American people responded ‘yes’ by a margin of more than two-to-one. The business community felt even more strongly so.”[65] Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau, angry at the Keynesian spenders, confided to his diary May 1939: “We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. And I have just one interest, and now if I am wrong somebody else can have my job. I want to see this country prosper. I want to see people get a job. I want to see people get enough to eat. We have never made good on our promises. I say after eight years of this administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started.[66] And enormous debt to boot.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal

Fred

August 29th, 2011
11:56 am

Bruno: “Jay–I’ll give you the “lack of sophistication” charge as applied to the Republicans for threatening to not raise the debt limit, if you will own up to the “lack of responsibility” charge as applied to the Democrats for (1) not considering spending cuts and (2) not coming up with a budget of their own in more than 2 years.”

That’s a little disingenuous Bruno. ANything the Dems proposed was shot down. The president proposed a bill that included even MORE cuts than that crappy one they finally passed. Political posturing at it’s “finest.”

While not a fan of the Democratic Party, i have become even more disgusted with the party of no. The republican aim is to drive the Country to ruin as a strategy for “grabbing back power.” Why is so hard to understand that they in fact played a leading role in getting us to this point? Jusrt because the leftists keep screaming, “Two unfunded wars” as a mantra does not lessen the truth in the message. Things are so bad that the leftists don’t even have to lie as has been their wont, nor use scare tactics, another favorite tactic. And for ONCE they are sticking pretty much to the truth, while the right is using the tactics of distortion and misrepresentation of truth. It would be almost funny this reversal of roles except for the sad state of our Country.

Bruno

August 29th, 2011
11:59 am

From the same article, FDR’s attitude toward businessmen:

“Roosevelt rejected the advice of Morgenthau to cut spending and decided big business were trying to ruin the New Deal by causing another depression that voters would react against by voting Republican.[61] It was a “capital strike” said Roosevelt, and he ordered the Federal Bureau of Investigation to look for a criminal conspiracy (they found none).[61] Roosevelt moved left and unleashed a rhetorical campaign against monopoly power, which was cast as the cause of the new crisis.[61] Ickes attacked automaker Henry Ford, steelmaker Tom Girdler, and the superrich “Sixty Families” who supposedly comprised “the living center of the modern industrial oligarchy which dominates the United States”.[61] Left unchecked, Ickes warned, they would create “big-business Fascist America—an enslaved America”. The President appointed Robert Jackson as the aggressive new director of the antitrust division of the Justice Department, but this effort lost its effectiveness once World War II began and big business was urgently needed to produce war supplies.”

Everything old is new again……

Kamchak

August 29th, 2011
12:01 pm

Since it didn’t work the first time…

I think it worked as in it staved off a world wide melt-down.

But to think it was a panacea for all the economic woes, was a fool’s dream.

stands for decibels

August 29th, 2011
12:03 pm

I read the article looking for something substantial, stands, but found no specifics

There was a very specific reference to a school construction/rebuilding effort, actually. Here’s where that link actually winds up.

http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Fix-Americas-Schools-Today-FAST.pdf

Same old, same old government stimulus rhetoric.

what can I say? as far as I can tell, stimulus works. Stimulus keeps people out of the unemployment line. Without those Recovery Act dollars, I am certain our unemployment rate would be much worse than it is. That said, we needed more stimulus than we got in 2009.

Massive tax cuts, on the other hand, just put us in a hole. Continuing to extend these tax cuts to people who can easily afford to pay higher taxes is wrong, but I recognize that it will take a changeover in the House to reverse this mistake.

Kamchak

August 29th, 2011
12:04 pm

You guys really are hilarious. “I don’t know who to run, even in my own party, will you please find someone for me?”

Elmer Fudd seems to be the “it boy”, go-to-guy, by at least one individual here.

md

August 29th, 2011
12:04 pm

“But the interviewer got real specific about Cantor’s list of Obama Regulations That Destroy American Business. First one read was the NLRB/Boeing decision.

That’s a decision, not a regulation. And the interviewer let it slide. As I said, a terrible interview.”

And I disagree………With Obama’s appointments to the NLRB, decisions and regulations are being made…………….much like changing the way voting is calculated………..and businesses can see this too……

Adam

August 29th, 2011
12:05 pm

I’m with stands on this one: When you grow up a little bit and come to recognize this fact (government spending not evil) , maybe we can have the discussion you so crave

stands for decibels

August 29th, 2011
12:06 pm

much like changing the way voting is calculated…

and by that you mean “actually counting the votes that are cast, as opposed to imagining what they might have been if they were actually cast”?

stands for decibels

August 29th, 2011
12:07 pm

maybe we can have the discussion you so crave

emphasis on the “maybe.”

I’m not sure I really want to try to have an adult conversation with someone who posts under a troll-handle, any more than a serious believer in limited government would want to converse with someone calling himself “Compliant Penile-Challenged Conservative”.

1811/0311

August 29th, 2011
12:08 pm

Plutocrat (from below):

Thanks for your response. A couple of points.

1) Penetta was pretty upset that Biden handed up the Seals. Just sayin’.

2) You may not be aware of this but Ozwald got his job at the Texas Book Depository weeks before the President’s staff even announced that he was coming to Dallas. Then when the parade route was announced (against the wishes of the Secret Service) it became a crime of opportunity.

3) May I recommend “A Simple Act of Murder” by Mark Fuhrman

http://www.amazon.com/Simple-Act-Murder-November-1963/dp/0060721545

md

August 29th, 2011
12:08 pm

“you don’t seem to understand that government spending is not evil.”

Depends……….the private sector must generate the funds to support the public sector……if the balance is not appropriate, the private sector spins it’s wheels just trying to meet the demands of the bills it already owes (gov’t spending).

Joe the Plutocrat

August 29th, 2011
12:08 pm

JB, pay not attention to the economists behind the curtain. sure, a “recession” is defined as any period of negative economic growth, but let’s be honest; if unemployment is up, and wages are flat or sinking, AND any measureable “growth” in the GDP can be linked to government stimulous; including 2.5 wars, which are funded by debt; does a term like “repression” really matter? it’s like the comedy bit about the punk who gets rousted by the cops for being a gang member; “…it’s not a gang, it’s club…” as I have ranted in the past; recessions and the occassional depression are mainfestations of the central bank philosophy and the natural order of free market (unregulated) capitalism.

1811/0311

August 29th, 2011
12:10 pm

Jay:

The great, great bulk of American business people will hold back spending, hiring or expanding until Obama is gone. They just don’t trust him.

If you want the economy to improve ………… help us vote him out of office.

md

August 29th, 2011
12:11 pm

“and by that you mean “actually counting the votes that are cast, as opposed to imagining what they might have been if they were actually cast”?”

If folks want a union, don’t you think they would take the time to vote for it??

Otherwise, not changing the status quo shouldn’t require a vote to leave it alone………….

Adam

August 29th, 2011
12:12 pm

Scout: I recommend American Grace by Robert D Putnam.

http://americangrace.org/
New version coming out in Feb that includes new data on the Tea Party:
http://www.amazon.com/American-Grace-Religion-Divides-Unites/dp/1416566732/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1314634313&sr=1-1

Bruno

August 29th, 2011
12:13 pm

That’s a little disingenuous Bruno. ANything the Dems proposed was shot down. The president proposed a bill that included even MORE cuts than that crappy one they finally passed. Political posturing at it’s “finest.”

Not disingenuous at all, Fred. In case you forgot, Obama’s only specific, written budget plan was defeated 97-0 in the Senate. He made references to another plan which cut spending, but nothing specific was submitted to anyone. You can make excuses all day as to why he submitted no actual plans, but the fact remains, he submitted no actual plans.

The republican aim is to drive the Country to ruin as a strategy for “grabbing back power.”

See my 11:59, Fred.

Why is so hard to understand that they in fact played a leading role in getting us to this point? Jusrt because the leftists keep screaming, “Two unfunded wars” as a mantra does not lessen the truth in the message.

In case you forgot, Fred, Bush left office with extremely low approval rates from both sides of the political aisle. Bush, along with the Democratically controlled Congress from 2007-2008 were both responsible for not acting more quickly when it was obvious that our economic fundamentals were out of whack. That is a well-established fact which no one denies. However, all the fault-finding in the world doesn’t solve the problems. And this is where Obama’s responsibility begins. So far, from my viewpoint, he has been less than effective in creating an environment in which business can flourish again.

1811/0311

August 29th, 2011
12:13 pm

Jay:

This would have been a better thread:

Headline: “GALLUP: OBAMA DISAPPROVE HITS ALL-TIME HIGH…”

http://www.gallup.com/poll/113980/Gallup-Daily-Obama-Job-Approval.aspx

Keep Up the Good Fight!

August 29th, 2011
12:13 pm

The great, great bulk of American business people will hold back spending, hiring or expanding until Obama is gone.

And prior to the 2010 elections, it was that “business people will hold back spending, hiring or expanding until” the Congress is back in Republican hands and then when they got the House and the economy was still rising, it was “see, we told you so”.

This argument holds about as much “fact” as Bachmann’s claim that God sent the earthquake and hurricane to send a message…. :roll:

Zap Rowsdower

August 29th, 2011
12:13 pm

Bye Bye, Obama.

Butch Cassidy

August 29th, 2011
12:14 pm

1811/0311 – “The great, great bulk of American business people will hold back spending, hiring or expanding until Obama is gone. They just don’t trust him.”

Great, but what happens if they don’t trust the guy after that? Do we just stay in a terminal holding pattern until everyone can agree on a guy that they “trust”?

Thulsa Doom

August 29th, 2011
12:14 pm

what can I say? as far as I can tell, stimulus works- stands for decibels

Soooo 2 years after the stimulus, with the economy on the brink of double dip recession, you have people saying that stimulus works. Unfreakingbelievable. Tell ya what. If stimulus works lets just spend a gazillion dollars and see how things turn out.I won’t bore you guys with the various economical reasons as to why that is such pure folly.

Massive tax cuts, on the other hand, just put us in a hole.- stands for decibels.

Ok. Lemme see if I understand this correctly. Massive tax cuts put us in a hole but running up massive govt debt via deficit stimulus spending doesn’t?

You can’t make this stuff up. These people actually believe their own nonsense. And the shocking thing is that they believe, despite all the empirical evidence in the world, that a dollar spent by the govt via stimulus is more efficiently spent in the economy than a dollar spent via the private economy in the form of tax cuts. If that were true then North Korea and the former Soviet Union would have been rousing successes while the most laissez faire economies in the world such as Singapore and Hong Kong wouldn’t have been the economic engines that they are. Such is the bizzarro economics world of the far left.

Fred

August 29th, 2011
12:15 pm

Scout:

“Jay:

The great, great bulk of American business people will hold back spending, hiring or expanding until Obama is gone. They just don’t trust him.”

And you say this from your long history of being a business owner and hiring people?

Adam

August 29th, 2011
12:15 pm

Bruno: The “Where’s your plan, on paper?” thing again? That’s as stupid as saying “Perry didn’t say he supports creationism, he just said that both are taught in school because a kid is smart enough to know which is true”

poison pen

August 29th, 2011
12:15 pm

Bruno

” Jay–I’ll give you the “lack of sophistication” charge as applied to the Republicans for threatening to not raise the debt limit, if you will own up to the “lack of responsibility” charge as applied to the Democrats for (1) not considering spending cuts and (2) not coming up with a budget of their own in more than 2 years.”

Bruno, Don’t hold your breath…

Doggone/GA

August 29th, 2011
12:15 pm

“If folks want a union, don’t you think they would take the time to vote for it??”

and just like the rules that say not voting is a “No” vote – you are guessing what someone who doesn’t vote wants. Count the votes cast. Anyone who didn’t vote, and who doesn’t agree with the outcome…well, they should have voted, shouldn’t they?

Joe the Plutocrat

August 29th, 2011
12:16 pm

Scout, and let me guess how you (personally) know “Panetta was upset”? because you read it in the media, right? and FYI, as director of the CIA, Panetta does not have any ‘authority’ over the SEALs or any other DoD special ops assets; unless; of course, they are TDY’d to this agency or that; in which case they were “operating” as CIA contractors or assets; and not SEAL team Six, which would support my argument that the “story” as presented in CNN, Fox News or MSNBC is very likely just that; a story. I am not saying people in power do not sometimes reveal clasified information (accidentally or on purpose), but there is great tactical value in letting our enemies think the info they are hearing is “classified”. re: Oswald and Dallas ‘63; as I said, we may never know who shot JFK, but as it turns out, the Warren Commission didn’t either, but it sure assumed the; “…that’s my story and I am sticking with it…” approach.

poison pen

August 29th, 2011
12:17 pm

Adam

” Bruno: The “Where’s your plan, on paper?” thing again? That’s as stupid as saying “Perry didn’t say he supports creationism, he just said that both are taught in school because a kid is smart enough to know which is true”

Adam, Then where is the plan, any plan?

Kamchak

August 29th, 2011
12:17 pm

The business community is so bothered by “uncertainty” that the S & P(yeah, the ones that should FOAD!) 500 is up 2.06% right now.

poison pen

August 29th, 2011
12:19 pm

Joe, It was the grassy knoll.

md

August 29th, 2011
12:19 pm

“what can I say? as far as I can tell, stimulus works- stands for decibels”

“Massive tax cuts, on the other hand, just put us in a hole.- stands for decibels.”

Have to agree with TD…….what’s the difference other than one has a middle man and one doesn’t?

Adam

August 29th, 2011
12:19 pm

Bruno: I’ll give you the “lack of sophistication” charge as applied to the Republicans for threatening to not raise the debt limit

what exactly is “lack of sophistication” about that?

1811/0311

August 29th, 2011
12:20 pm

Adam:

Very good. The Bible itself predicts such a falling away by the last generation.

Thanks much !!

2 Timothy 3:1-4

“1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good. 4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God.”

Kamchak

August 29th, 2011
12:20 pm

Anyone who didn’t vote, and who doesn’t agree with the outcome…well, they should have voted, shouldn’t they?

Ooooh, one of those “choice” thingies.

Adam

August 29th, 2011
12:20 pm

poison pen: If you weren’t aware of plans being made during the debt ceiling debate BY OBAMA, then you weren’t paying attention.

Now, you may think his plan sucked, but you cannot say he didn’t have a plan. All you can say is he didn’t write it down. Which is, as I said, a stupid argument.

TM

August 29th, 2011
12:21 pm

any body think that consumers spending rose because the costs of food and gas kept going up during that month?

Adam

August 29th, 2011
12:21 pm

Scout: The Bible says a lot of things. And just like you I pick and choose which parts I like and which I don’t.

Doggone/GA

August 29th, 2011
12:21 pm

“Which is, as I said, a stupid argument.”

Give ‘em a break, when stupid is all you have, stupid is what you run with.

poison pen

August 29th, 2011
12:22 pm

Butch Cassidy

1811/0311 – “The great, great bulk of American business people will hold back spending, hiring or expanding until Obama is gone. They just don’t trust him.”

” Great, but what happens if they don’t trust the guy after that? Do we just stay in a terminal holding pattern until everyone can agree on a guy that they “trust”?”

Butch, Yep, that’s about it, they have not been spending for many years.

Peadawg

August 29th, 2011
12:23 pm

“backing views the economy was not falling back into recession”

LOL falling back into? I missed where the recession ended.

Adam

August 29th, 2011
12:23 pm

Doggone: I am just waiting for the resounding silence when he DOES have a paper plan.

md

August 29th, 2011
12:23 pm

“and just like the rules that say not voting is a “No” vote – you are guessing what someone who doesn’t vote wants. Count the votes cast. Anyone who didn’t vote, and who doesn’t agree with the outcome…well, they should have voted, shouldn’t they?

No………it is currently understood that the status quo remains unchanged unless a union is voted IN…..so why vote to NOT change the stautus quo?

A bit like a bunch of Baptists going into a Catholic church and demanding a vote to change it to Baptist…………so if not enough catholics show up, the baptists win………..

Joe Mama

August 29th, 2011
12:23 pm

Mr. White — “but you won’t give basic choices to people when it comes to schools, attending churches or buying things.”

How, exactly, do you not have choices in those things?

You can’t send your kid to a different school? You can’t attend the church you want? You’re not allowed to buy the products you want to buy? I don’t understand — could you elaborate, please?

Adam

August 29th, 2011
12:24 pm

Peadawg: I missed where the recession ended.

Apparently you did.

Bruno

August 29th, 2011
12:24 pm

what can I say? as far as I can tell, stimulus works. Stimulus keeps people out of the unemployment line. Without those Recovery Act dollars, I am certain our unemployment rate would be much worse than it is. That said, we needed more stimulus than we got in 2009.

The only problem with trying to “scientifically” measure the effect of stimulus spending is that you don’t have a “control group” by which to compare results. So in the end, we can only form an opinion as to its efficacy based on what we think the outcome would have been without government intervention. However, by applying “inductive reasoning”, we can look at previous attempts to spend our way out of a recession/depression to judge its effectiveness, specifically FDR’s New Deal. From my viewpoint, shared by 2/3 of Americans at the time, the New Deal unnecessarily extended the Depression. Three years into Obama’s administration, I don’t see any turnarounds in sight, only a huge pile of new debt.

Massive tax cuts, on the other hand, just put us in a hole. Continuing to extend these tax cuts to people who can easily afford to pay higher taxes is wrong, but I recognize that it will take a changeover in the House to reverse this mistake.

1811/0311

August 29th, 2011
12:25 pm

Plutocrat:

Everyone is entitled to their opinions (as opposed to evidence) but you still didn’t address my main point.

Were you aware that Oswald got the job at the Texas School Book Depository weeks before it was announced the President was coming to Dallas?

I’ll add a second question:

Or was he clairvoyant?

stands for decibels

August 29th, 2011
12:25 pm

More useful advice for our CEO.

If I were the one in charge of this pop stand, I’d direct my economics team to come up with the “If I were a prime minister instead of a president, this is what we would do” plan. And if all they came up with was minor tax breaks for hiring, “patent reform,” and “trade deals,” I’d, you know, fire them.

Doggone/GA

August 29th, 2011
12:25 pm

“No………it is currently understood that the status quo remains unchanged unless a union is voted IN…..so why vote to NOT change the stautus quo”

You’re still guessing. A unionization vote is an up OR down vote. Anyone who doesn’t vote is NOT voting either way. As I said, if they have a problem with the results, they should have voted.

“A bit like a bunch of Baptists going into a Catholic church and demanding a vote to change it to Baptist…………so if not enough catholics show up, the baptists win………..”

that’s right. If not enough Catholics show up and vote to keep their church Catholic, well…too bad, so sad, they should have voted.

Joe the Plutocrat

August 29th, 2011
12:27 pm

poison pen, and if you read either Jim Garrison’s On the Trail of the Assassins (plural, by the way) or Jim Maars’ Crossfire: The Plot that Killed Kennedy; or some of the old jailhouse interviews with Woody Harrelson’s (yep, that Woody Harrelson) late father Wayne; who spent the last 25 years or so of his life serving in federal prison for killing a federal judge (he was a contract killer), you might consider the role of the “grassy knoll”. but again, armchair cops and conspiracy nuts can opine about the actual shooter(s), but what is not subject to debate is the fact that the Warren Commission told one story; and 8 or 10 years later, the Senate Committe on Assassinations amended the “story”. what people (like Scout) fail to accept is; everyone here on this blog at one time or another likes to embrace the “they’re all liars” or “your guy lied” mantra; and then, all of a sudden, when a highly classified “op” is executed (or fails, for that matter), they afford the very same politicians some medal of honesty and candor.

1811/0311

August 29th, 2011
12:27 pm

Adam:

…………… and picking what we may or may not like doesn’t change the truth.

stands for decibels

August 29th, 2011
12:28 pm

Ok. Lemme see if I understand this correctly.

there’s a first time for everything.

with the economy on the brink of double dip recession, you have people saying that stimulus works.

Correlation is not equal to causation.

Kamchak

August 29th, 2011
12:28 pm

The Bible itself predicts such a falling away by the last generation.

Reminds me of a very old comic I cut out of the paper some 40 years ago.

A very old guy with a long white beard was walking around with a sign that said, “The End is Near“, when another much younger fellow asks him, “How does one get into a job like this?”

The old guy replies, “My great-great-great grandfather founded the business.”

1811/0311

August 29th, 2011
12:28 pm

Joe:

You really should read “A Simple Act of Murder”. You owen it to yourself.

1811/0311

August 29th, 2011
12:29 pm

Kammie:

Just don’t whine.

Doggone/GA

August 29th, 2011
12:29 pm

“Correlation is not equal to causation”

Actually, it’s more accurate to say “correlation is not always equal to causation” because sometimes it IS.

Brosephus

August 29th, 2011
12:29 pm

Depends……….the private sector must generate the funds to support the public sector……

Doesn’t depend. Money that the public sector spends ends up being returned to the private sector and aids profits in the private sector. The reason government spending is more important right now is because the private sector is hoarding boatloads of money. Our economy is choked to death when money doesn’t circulate. If you think government spending is evil and want it cut, then all that has to be done is have more money circulating in the private sector. Sitting on profits doesn’t circulate money enough to aid consumption for a consumption based economy.

Butch Cassidy

August 29th, 2011
12:30 pm

Lets see, 2 World Wars, Korea, Vietnam, Kuwait, Afghanistan and Iraq. Not to mention 2 oil embargos and countless forays by the U.S. into other minor skirmishes over the past 100 years. And yet just in the last 3 years, businesses have become so “uncertain” that they can’t possibly hire anyone until their crystal ball has been located?

1811/0311

August 29th, 2011
12:31 pm

August 29th, 2011
12:31 pm

Mick

August 29th, 2011
12:09 pm

“1811″

“We are in agreement on that, I have been to the book depository 6th floor, it was a turkey shoot especially for an ex marine. A better book was Case Closed by gerald posner – he nails it…”

Thank you sir. At least someone on here has some common sense.

Joe the Plutocrat

August 29th, 2011
12:32 pm

Scout, to answer your question, no I was not aware; but to your point about “a crime of opportunity” where has it been proved that he acted alone, as determined by the “facts” presented by the Warren Commission, and later rescinded by the Senate Committee on Assassinations. I have no experience as a contract killer, or sniper; but it seems to me that any good ’shooter’ can adapt and adjust. once Oswald got the gig at the book warehouse; the “opporunity” to exectue the plan got the greenlight, no? and Hollywood aside; don’t most (military trained) snipers rely on spotters or teams?

1811/0311

August 29th, 2011
12:32 pm

Butch Cassidy:

No ………………… until Obama is gone.

Adam

August 29th, 2011
12:32 pm

Scout: and picking what we may or may not like doesn’t change the truth.

Correct. Much like the arguments about Climate Change and Evolution. Thank you for agreeing with me.

ragnar danneskjold

August 29th, 2011
12:33 pm

Good afternoon all. Given the quality of past efforts, I think I could not care less how historians might some day analyze this era (remember, historians say that the stock market crash had some direct causative effect on the Great Depression, a laughably deficient analysis.) I think most economists would agree that the current economy shows profitable companies – even with record profits in many cases – that are unwilling to expand their companies, due to anticipated higher government-imposed per-employee costs for the long-term future (ObamaCare, Medicare and social Security unfunded contingent liabilities) and the constant threat of higher energy costs, due to micromanagement by EPA and the leftist cap-and-tax dream. The current economy has been regulated to death, bu the Federal government. No additional regulations will cure that problem.

1811/0311

August 29th, 2011
12:33 pm

Adam:

Of course. On any issue there is falsehood and truth.

Whether it’s the economy or how to bake the best cherry pie.

The key is the wisdom to discern.

Keep Up the Good Fight!

August 29th, 2011
12:34 pm

Hmmmm….. so businesses are hoarding cash because of uncertainty…but if there were a temporary holiday that would allow corporations to repatriate offshore funds at a 0% ratte (as endorsed by Bachmann and Perrry), then suddenly a trillion dollars would be back in the US and jobs would be created.

One of these “absurdities” does not go well with the other.

Fred

August 29th, 2011
12:34 pm

Bruno: “So far, from my viewpoint, he has been less than effective in creating an environment in which business can flourish again”.

And from my viewpoint, he has been blocked at every turn. I don’t use the term “party of no” as a catch phrase. It’s really how I view them. You reference 2007-2008, what about the previous 6 years of unchecked ‘cut tax and spend” republican control largesse?

One thing that DOES get over looked though is the Democrats failure to pass a budget after they lost control of the House and Senate in the elections but BEFORE they left power. Now THAT would be a very easy example for you to use of a lack of responsibility shown by the leftists.

Yet I hear no mention of that simple fact. Nope, all I see is bumper talk speech and the spouting of failed policies from the past. Mindless drivel like Scout or Dusty spew.

THINKING people agree that massive cuts (including some corporate welfare) AND some tax hikes are needed. The party of no however is “firm” on the notion of no cuts to corporate welfare (medicare YES, Social Security YES, unemployment benefits YES, cuts to the folks who aren’t creating jobs in this Country, NO), and certainly NO tax increases no matter how small.

i have an idea. Instead of decrying the whole Obama care thing as garbage, how about using IT as a bargaining chip? Go through it carefully and tie some tax increases to cuts in THAT bloated piece of legislation? Oh no, can’t do THAT. We have to trash the whole thing because IT was proposed and passed by “democrats.” As such we have to demonized it or else “they” will get some “credit.”

You seem to be a very intelligent man Bruno, why do you tote the party line much in the same way as mindless automatons do? THAT I don’t get. I would think you would be an independent, not a neo con.

Oh, and have no fear, I NEVER forget that those two revolving idiots, Pelosi and Reed, are the “leaders” of the Democrats. That in and of itself is enough to keep me wary of THAT party. But as I’ve been saying for a couple of months now, when the Democrats seem more sane and resonable than the Republicans on almost every issue, it scares the HELL out of me. Never thought I =would ever use the words sane or reasonable in any paragraph that contained the names Pelosi and Reed………

Adam

August 29th, 2011
12:35 pm

ragnar: and the leftist cap-and-tax dream

And as we all know, a dream that never became law just scares the pants off businesses and makes them “uncertain.” No one will hire as long as leftists have dreams….

1811/0311

August 29th, 2011
12:35 pm

Hummmmm …………………..

Trouble in the ranks !

Headline: “Former Secretary of State Colin Powell, who famously crossed party lines to vote for President Obama in 2008, said today that he’s not necessarily supporting the president for reelection in 2012.”

stands for decibels

August 29th, 2011
12:35 pm

it’s more accurate to say “correlation is not always equal to causation” because sometimes it IS.

sometimes it coincides, sure. I don’t think that ever makes it “equal to,” though.

Adam

August 29th, 2011
12:35 pm

Scout: The key is the wisdom to discern.

I’m sorry you lost your key. It might be prudent to make a copy next time.

md

August 29th, 2011
12:36 pm

“Doesn’t depend. Money that the public sector spends ends up being returned to the private sector and aids profits in the private sector.”

Sure it does……….gov’t spending does not guarantee economic recovery……..but it does guarantee debt…………it becomes basic economics at that point……..income better be greater than expenses or we end up in default.

Yes, that spending MAY aid in jumpstarting the economy………and it MAY not. If it does not, the debt still remains…….and the private sector must generate the income to settle the debt.