House GOP sacrifices progress for purity
By any rational measure, House Republicans were on the verge of a major accomplishment a couple of weeks ago.
Even though they held control of only one legislative chamber, they had backed President Obama into proposing a $4 trillion deficit-reduction package, including more than $3 trillion in spending reductions over the next decade. Enacted into law, it would have easily been the largest budget-cutting package in U.S. history. All they had to do was say yes.
But they could not bring themselves to utter that word.
Their victory, you see, must be absolute and total or it is not victory at all. A “win-win” outcome — fine for liberals and RINO pansies — is insufficiently decisive to those who feel morally obligated to turn politics into scorched-earth warfare. They are Harry Truman demanding unconditional surrender from Imperial Japan.
And they have the Bomb.
As a result, a historically significant reduction in the federal deficit and in once-untouchable entitlement programs had to be rejected, because in their minds its purity was tainted by an increase in taxes on the wealthiest of Americans.
In his latest column, David Brooks assesses the messianic radicals of the GOP with brutal clarity:
“They do not see politics as the art of the possible. They do not believe in seizing opportunities to make steady, messy progress toward conservative goals. They believe that politics is a cataclysmic struggle. They believe that if they can remain pure in their faith then someday their party will win a total and permanent victory over its foes. They believe they are Gods of the New Dawn.”
Well, they’re not.
– Jay Bookman
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621 comments Add your comment
Paul
July 19th, 2011
3:06 pm
@@
I wasn’t referring to his politics. I took ’squishy” in an emotional context. I see now you mean it as being nonresolute.
You do not seem to accept one can ask a number of questions, seek to understand a number of angles, not treat those with whom one disagrees as enemies, yet still be quite grounded in bedrock principles.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
July 19th, 2011
3:07 pm
Paul:
I hear you and it “pains” (no pun intended) me greatly to even bring that up.
But as much as I like Bachmann and her policies, I don’t want a president with a bad heart, or one who cries emotionally at the drop of a hat or who has migraines that put them to bed (as my wife has) for a couple of days, etc., etc., etc.
What is …………… is.
@@
July 19th, 2011
3:07 pm
Paul, one more thing.
My husband has never cried. My Dad did. My brother has.
I LUV(D) all three of them.
Fred
July 19th, 2011
3:07 pm
Scout: Isn’t that woman free, here in America to choose her religion and follow it?
TaxPayer
July 19th, 2011
3:07 pm
Scout,
I actually think you whine too much.
Neon Frog
July 19th, 2011
3:08 pm
Get Real
July 19th, 2011
2:28 pm
Did Jay ever provide a link to the 4 trillion detail, it is easy to throw out numbers with nothing to back it up.
It has only been around since April, or didn’t you know. In fact, that evil liberal lamestream media source Bloomberg even reported on it.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-04-13/obama-is-said-to-target-4-trillion-deficit-reduction-in-12-years-or-less.html
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
July 19th, 2011
3:09 pm
Paul:
The press hid so much about Kennedy that the public did not know the extent of his back problem (and the strong drugs he was taking) not to mention his “lady friends” including the woman who was an East German spy. His assassination prevented that last scandal from coming out at the time.
Google it !
Fletch
July 19th, 2011
3:09 pm
WOODSTOCK MIKE – “Question, how many people do you know that make enough money to be considered rich that aren’t highly skilled at their profession? And let me know what line of work they are in please…
My partners and I own an Air Charter, Liquor Distribution and PEO here in Atlanta, 2 Beef Production outfits in Central and Norhtern Montana, and 2 Security firms in Las Vegas and Los Angeles. I don’t consider us to be “highly skilled” in any particular area, and we certainly believe that our taxes could go up 10% to 20% more and not affect our quality of life.
@@
July 19th, 2011
3:10 pm
Paul:
You do not seem to accept one can ask a number of questions, seek to understand a number of angles, not treat those with whom one disagrees as enemies, yet still be quite grounded in bedrock principles.
It’s a blog, Paul….there’s only so much time one can spend here and never have I seen a problem resolved here.
You give yourself too much credit.
Doggone/GA
July 19th, 2011
3:10 pm
“I’m sure you remember the arguments some years back that women were not suited for senior ranks in the military or in public life as their monthly cycles led them to days of irrationality and ineffective decision-making?”
Yeah, but we know that REALLY the issue was this: “I have PMS and a gun. Any questions?”
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
July 19th, 2011
3:10 pm
Fred:
“Scout: Isn’t that woman free, here in America to choose her religion and follow it?”
I know you are not that naive. That’s what the law says but watch her try to walk away.
At the least she’ll get a good canning if not worse.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
July 19th, 2011
3:11 pm
Taxpayer:
And I think you hide behind name calling, etc. instead of debate.
I choose wet mops at dawn.
Lord Help Us
July 19th, 2011
3:11 pm
Scout reminds me of an uptight curmudgeon I saw at a Target (speaking of Target) that was deeply offended at the cashier for saying ” Happy Holidays.’
AR is no way to go through life…
getalife
July 19th, 2011
3:12 pm
Scout is having a bad day.
I think bachmann is whacked out on prescription drugs.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
July 19th, 2011
3:12 pm
Doggone:
What are the stats on the percentage of women who would much rather work for a man than another woman ………………….
Lord Help Us
July 19th, 2011
3:12 pm
‘At the least she’ll get a good canning if not worse.’
Illegal in this country…sheesh…
Uncle Jed
July 19th, 2011
3:13 pm
“Why are there no Sons of Black Muslim Civil War Veterans?”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=who+s+your+daddy&view=detail&mid=B0F1472CA0F4904A07C8B0F1472CA0F4904A07C8&first=0&FORM=LKVR10
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
July 19th, 2011
3:14 pm
getalife:
Where have you been ?
Lorh Help Us:
And you will say I suppose you favor “civil rights” …………… in word only.
“For those who fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected witll never know”
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
July 19th, 2011
3:14 pm
Excuse me: “Lord Help Us”
Schrodinger's cat
July 19th, 2011
3:14 pm
The migrain issue shouldn’t be a problem…actually many will identify with her
would you have the same opinion if she were to walk with a limp, had a missing a limb,blind in one eye, in a wheel chair?…not trying to be dramatic just saying…migrains can be seen as a disability…taking sometime to mend from a migrain isn’t quite like being out of commision in a coma
Paul
July 19th, 2011
3:15 pm
@@ 3:07
I figured as much. Was just looking for consistency from how you view characteristics in family compared to nonfamily, until I understood you weren’t referring to emotion but what you see as appropriate manifestations of political resoluteness.
Scout
“that has a person incapacitated for days”
I’ve a daughter who’s been thru that. As it applies to a president? I’m going to have to think long and hard about that one.
And as far as Kennedy, I’ve read books about those situations. And not ones published by “National Enquirer Press.”
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
July 19th, 2011
3:16 pm
Lord Help Us:
So is wearing that “mask”.
Brosephus
July 19th, 2011
3:16 pm
Hit refresh before logging off…
Mike
I’ve been in that bottom bracket, and I have the memories of “free lunch” in school to remind me of that. I grew up with one set of grandparents, and my dad’s mother lived in the projects when I was little. I’ll never forget where I’ve come from. I didn’t get to where I am on my own, so that’s why I’m inclined to help those who want to help themselves. I get a giggle out of the whole “rich” and “wealthy” debate, because I would probably not meet anyone’s definition of either, but that’s exactly how I feel about myself. Not to brag, but I turned 38 today. I’ve never been arrested, never been on “welfare”, have A+ credit, and work to defend my country. Being a Black man in America sometimes has its struggles, but I’ve managed to whip ass on most every one I’ve faced. Maybe it’s because of my personal drive or my refusal to become a statistic… Who knows? My ultimate goal is to be a role model for my daughter to follow and exceed.
Scout
When it comes to freedom of religion in the US, are they not one and the same? One is the practice of the Christian religion, and the other is the practice of the Islam religion. In my eyes, they are exactly alike. Freedom of expression. Does a wife have to let her husband be head of household? NO!! Does a woman have to wear a burka in public? NO!! However, they both can choose to express their religions and do exactly that.
WOODSTOCK MIKE
July 19th, 2011
3:17 pm
@Fletch
Sorry that you don’t give yourself enough credit. Not many people have the skills to own multiple companies. And making money isn’t always about the person with the highest skills per say, but, certainly you are business savvy. If you weren’t you would be out of business.
Uncle Jed
July 19th, 2011
3:17 pm
I’ve been hacked. Where are those Murdochs?!?
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
July 19th, 2011
3:18 pm
Brosephus:
I can’t believe you are that naive to think “all” Muslim women like to wear those burkas, especially the ones with the slits.
Kind of like the girls in Afghanistan who really don’t want to go to school ………. but risk having acid thrown in their face just to try it.
You liberals talk the talk but you don’t walk the walk.
WOODSTOCK MIKE
July 19th, 2011
3:18 pm
“Maybe it’s because of my personal drive or my refusal to become a statistic… Who knows? My ultimate goal is to be a role model for my daughter to follow and exceed.”
I wish we all had this mentality…
Paul
July 19th, 2011
3:19 pm
@@
Describing characteristics does not mean giving credit.
Scoring points. Gaining credit. Not my idea of a path to follow, but if it works for you, that’s fine, too.
Fletch
“and we certainly believe that our taxes could go up 10% to 20% more and not affect our quality of life.”
Thanks for that honest assessment. There’s been discussion here about how those at the lower economic level fight so diligently to preserve the current tax structure for those at the highest level. Care to tell us how you feel (warning: some here might tag you as ’squishy’) about that?
WOODSTOCK MIKE
July 19th, 2011
3:20 pm
“and we certainly believe that our taxes could go up 10% to 20% more and not affect our quality of life”
Most companies don’t have profit margins like yours. If you took 10-20% away from most companies they would be sunk… You have a great business… Congrats…
SKH
July 19th, 2011
3:21 pm
FYI. Gang of Six Deficit Plan Executive Summary:
http://www.nationaljournal.com/budget/document-gang-of-six-deficit-plan-executive-summary-20110719
Fletch
July 19th, 2011
3:21 pm
WOODSTOCK MIKE – “Sorry that you don’t give yourself enough credit. Not many people have the skills to own multiple companies. And making money isn’t always about the person with the highest skills per say, but, certainly you are business savvy. If you weren’t you would be out of business.”
No apologies needed. Just pointing out that it’s not always the highly skilled people that reap the rewards. Trust me, if you get into one of our helicopters, you DO NOT want me at the controls.
larry
July 19th, 2011
3:21 pm
They are currently having desert after their shaving cream pie lunch earlier today
Paul
July 19th, 2011
3:22 pm
getalife
“I think bachmann is whacked out on prescription drugs.”
Well, that would explain those interviews -
Schrodinger's cat
July 19th, 2011
3:22 pm
“and we certainly believe that our taxes could go up 10% to 20% more and not affect our quality of life.”
depends..do you mean 10% of your current rate or 10% of your net?
MPercy
July 19th, 2011
3:23 pm
Joe Mama @12:17 pm “I often see this claim posted, but I’ve never seen attribution for the supposed governmental claim or proof in terms of validated figures.”
Appliance usage comes from a Department of Energy Survey [www.eia.gov/consumption/residential/data/2009/#undefined], one part of which breaks down appliance use in US homes by household Income. It does detail use of coffee makers, microwave ovens, etc. by households below the poverty line.
For example it states that 16.9M households are below the poverty line, of those 15.6M have microwaves, 8.6M have coffee makers, 10.6M have top-door (top freezer) refrigerators, 1.8M have a 2nd refrigerator, 3,9M have a separate freezer, 4.8M have a dishwasher, 10.9M have a clothes washer.
For TVs, of the 16.9M households below the poverty line, only 0.3M had no TV, while 4.8M had one TV, 5.9M had two TVs, 3.5M had three TVs, 1.6M had four TVs, and 0.7M had five or more TVs. Some 8.9M had TVs between 21 and 36 inches in screen size, and 4.4M had “big screen TVs” of 37 inches or more, with 5.7M being LCD or plasma TVs. Some 6.1M had cable TV boxes connected to their primary TV, and 3.9M had a video game console, and 7.1M had a DVD player.
In addition 5.8M of the 16.9M households below the poverty line had computers, while 1.8M more had two computers (and nearly1M had three or more). Some 7.2M had internet access, of those 2.7M had cable broadband, 3.1 had DSL or fiber. And 5.2M had at least one printer.
8.0M (of 16.9M poverty-level) households have cordless phones, 5.2M have answering machines, 0.8M have fax machines, and 0.8M have photocopiers. 5.8M have stereo equipment.
RedEye
July 19th, 2011
3:23 pm
When Bush left office, the annual budget deficit was $460 billion and the national debt stood at $10.63 trillion.
Two and one-half years into the Obama era, encompassing two years in which the Dems controlled both the Executive and Congress, the annual deficit has reached $1.4 trillion, and the debt has ballooned to $14.35 trillion.
Lord Help Us
July 19th, 2011
3:23 pm
‘So is wearing that “mask”.’
Well, I hope you called the authorities or made a citizes arrest. I am guessing you were too much of a coward to ‘walk the walk’ as you say…
Peter
July 19th, 2011
3:25 pm
Kyle Wingfield has said Republicans are about small government !
HA HA HA……when ?
@@
July 19th, 2011
3:26 pm
Oh well!
Goldman Sachs Group Inc. (GS), the U.S. bank that makes most of its money from trading, said it will cut about 1,000 jobs after a plunge in fixed-income revenue that was bigger than analysts estimated.
Job cuts will be “broad based” and are likely to affect both junior and senior employees, he said, adding that Goldman Sachs’s plans to grow in countries such as China, India and Brazil, where the firm has been doing the most rapid hiring, won’t be affected.
WOODSTOCK MIKE
July 19th, 2011
3:27 pm
“and we certainly believe that our taxes could go up 10% to 20% more and not affect our quality of life”
And this statement above also shows that you have much different circumstances than most of us. Can’t really speak for everyone but if you took my pay down 20% it would effect the way I live.
Brosephus
July 19th, 2011
3:28 pm
can’t believe you are that naive to think “all” Muslim women like to wear those burkas, especially the ones with the slits.
And I can’t believe you’re that reading challenged to read what I said and find where I stated “all”. Then again…
As usual, you read or see what YOU THINK you read or see, regardless to what’s actually on the screen at the end of your nose. I’ll be nice as to not say something that offends my elders here, but you really need to get a grip on actual reading comprehension amongst other things before it’s too late. I would hate for you to go to your day of Judgment with as much hatred and anger in your heart as you put on display here.
Doggone/GA
July 19th, 2011
3:28 pm
“Two and one-half years into the Obama era, encompassing two years in which the Dems controlled both the Executive and Congress, the annual deficit has reached $1.4 trillion, and the debt has ballooned to $14.35 trillion.”
Hon, you are SO, SO late with that one. We’ve heard it about a million times in the last 2.5 years. You REALLY need to get up to date on your talking points emails.
MPercy
July 19th, 2011
3:29 pm
USinUK @12:19 pm hrm. I’ve met my fair share of contractors, plumbers and electricians. not one of them made a QUARTER OF A MILLION DOLLARS.
NY Times:
The projects include the Freedom Tower, the transit hub, the 9/11 Memorial and surrounding street work.
Contractor and union sources confirmed that the eight tower cranes at the WTC site guarantee a bonanza for Local 14 operating engineers and the Local 15 specialists who fix them.
One example is the full-time Local 14 “master mechanics” the contractor must hire whenever five pieces of heavy equipment or three tower cranes are in use.
With a $135,000 base salary, a master mechanic can make a staggering $405,000 a year with overtime that’s guaranteed by six-day, 12- to 16-hour-a-day schedules. Welfare benefits, insurance and other costs hike the annual bill to $700,000 for that one mechanic.
WSJ:
Some crane operators and related trades in New York City make upwards of $500,000 a year in pay, overtime and benefits, according to the Real Estate Board of New York, which represents the construction industry.
A crane operator in New York City earns $82.15 an hour in base pay and benefits, according to the Engineer News-Record, a trade publication. That’s well’s above the $66 an hour he would earn in Chicago or the $39 an hour in Washington, D.C.
But the real reason New York crane operators and other operating engineers earn such big salaries is overtime and benefits. A relief crane operator working 56 hours of overtime per week for 52 weeks will earn $332,667 in overtime and $159,053 in overtime benefits at the World Trade Center. As a worker’s salaries go up, so do the amounts employers must kick in for annuities and pensions.
WOODSTOCK MIKE
July 19th, 2011
3:29 pm
“Kyle Wingfield has said Republicans are about small government !
HA HA HA……when ?”
Considering they want to eliminate about half of it’s departments I guess that would make the case for wanting smaller govt?
Paulo977
July 19th, 2011
3:29 pm
Who is for we the people?
http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/636169/congressman_who_harassed_elizabeth_warren_showered_with_donations_from_banks_and_predatory_lenders/
Brosephus
July 19th, 2011
3:29 pm
Now, it’s really time to go, or end up in the doghouse!!!
ciao!!!
SKH
July 19th, 2011
3:30 pm
“The overall goals of the plan mirror President Obama’s fiscal commission: Deep cuts in government agencies, significant reductions in Medicare and a framework for keeping Social Security solvent over the next 75 years. It also seeks to raise $1 trillion in taxes over the next decade by rewriting the tax code to lower tax rates for households in all income categories while eliminating various tax breaks and deductions.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/gang-of-six-budget-cutting-plan-gains-momentum-in-senate/2011/07/19/gIQANkdzNI_story.html
RedEye
July 19th, 2011
3:30 pm
Doggone,
Delusional? Refusing to accept facts? Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain?
Jay
July 19th, 2011
3:30 pm
No, Redeye.
When Bush left office in 2009, the CBO was already projecting a fiscal 2009 deficit of $1.2 trillion, based on a combination of mandatory recession-related increases in spending to cover much higher unemployment, etc., and much lower revenues, also due to the recession.
(Fiscal 2009 had begun Oct. 1, 2008, and was already more than three months underway when Obama took the oath)
SKH
July 19th, 2011
3:31 pm
Hey Jay, what do you think of the “Gang of Six/Seven” proposal thus far?
Fletch
July 19th, 2011
3:31 pm
PAUL – “Thanks for that honest assessment. There’s been discussion here about how those at the lower economic level fight so diligently to preserve the current tax structure for those at the highest level. Care to tell us how you feel (warning: some here might tag you as ’squishy’) about that?”
WOODSTOCK MIKE – “Most companies don’t have profit margins like yours. If you took 10-20% away from most companies they would be sunk… You have a great business… Congrats…”
I think I can answer both questions.
1. The tax issue isn’t about profit margins. The 10% to 20% increase wouldn’t adversely affect me because it is taxation on personal income reported and not corporate income, and thanks to the tax code, there are a number of loopholes that are avaialble to reduce the burden.
2. The capital gains tax on income earned through investments can also be shielded through the use of Unitrusts, which allow me to generate a steady stream of income while reducing the tax liability.
The aforementioned examples are not unique, and are utilized by most people. So whenever the issue of wealth vs. taxation comes up, it needs to be a much broader discussion, because clearly it’s far from being black and white.
RedEye
July 19th, 2011
3:32 pm
Jay,
Oh ok, I see. I forgot it was Bush’s fault. I guess the Obama stimulus, Obamacare, Dodd-Franks and the nearly $5 trillion dollars of budget deficits that the big O has racked up was Bush’s doing as well.
Paul
July 19th, 2011
3:33 pm
Woodstock Mike
I believe his point about taxes going up 10 or 20 percent was that, if his personal (not the busineses he’s partnered in) taxes are now $200,000 that if they increased to $220,000 or $240,000, that that extra $20 or $40 thousand out of his pocket would not much affect how he lives his life.
And for those who think all income groups should pay the same rate, therein lies the illustration of what Jay has called the marginal utility of a dollar. Increasing one group’s rate by 20 percent doesn’t much affect them because they have so many dollars left over. But take a group earning a tenth or a hundredth of that group and increase the tax rate by 20 percent, well, an extra thousand dollars is worth much more in its effect for someone earning $30,000 a year as opposed to three million dollars a year.
AmVet
July 19th, 2011
3:34 pm
“If Democrats were so concerned about the issue like they fool you to believe…”
There really is no limit to your sticking your foot in your mouth, is there? Is it all predicated on your being a dead red Republican? It warps your mind to not understand that anybody who fundamentally disagrees with you MUST be a Democrat.
Silly boy.
I voted against the Dem candidate in four out of the five last presidential elections. I voted for Jill Chambers (former head of the DeKalb GOP), as my state rep twice. I even voted for Reagan once (and was sick to my stomach for weeks).
Get a clue and come up with better arguments that this childish Rep vs. Dem contrived construct. It is beyond pathetic.
The duopoly owns you and you work for them, though you don’t even know it. But they do. Evidenced by the fact that you are still hung up and unable to see that there is virtually NO difference between the two.
They are merely the flip sides of the same corporate owned coin.
This is fundamental stuff that you should have learned 15 years ago…
@@
July 19th, 2011
3:34 pm
Paul:
Scoring points. Gaining credit. Not my idea of a path to follow, but if it works for you, that’s fine, too.
Whenever you ever seen me attempting to score points? Gain credit? I just post giving others the opportunity to read it or not. I couldn’t care less what they choose to do.
You, on the other, want to offer guidance on how one should post, how they should frame their arguments. Gets tiresome.
Other than ^^^ that, you’re likely an alright fella.
Dave R.
July 19th, 2011
3:35 pm
Hey, Jay!
What happened to this thread disappearing a couple of times?
Please tell us it was all josef’s fault!
Jay
July 19th, 2011
3:36 pm
SKH, what’s been released is very confusing.
For example, it claims:
“Tax reform must be estimated to provide $1 trillion in additional revenue to meet plan targets….”
AND:
“If CBO scored this plan, it would find net tax relief of approximately $1.5 trillion.”
So which is it?
Bosch
July 19th, 2011
3:39 pm
“I guess the Obama stimulus, Obamacare, Dodd-Franks and the nearly $5 trillion dollars of budget deficits that the big O has racked up was Bush’s doing as well”
What is a Dodd-Frank?
Tundra Dude
July 19th, 2011
3:39 pm
Peter@3:25 wrote:
Kyle Wingfield has said Republicans are about small government !
HA HA HA……when ?
They prefer small gubmint with a Big, Unlimited credit card.
When Bush wanted his annual debt ceiling raise, it was never an issue for the
Red Hypocrite party.
Bosch
July 19th, 2011
3:40 pm
“What happened to this thread disappearing a couple of times?”
PAUL! WHAT DID YOU DO THIS TIME?
Dave R.
July 19th, 2011
3:40 pm
You can be sure that anything Saxby Chambliss is associated with will be contradictory in nature and confusing as all Hell.
MPercy
July 19th, 2011
3:40 pm
Left wing management @12:32 pm I just wish Mr. Blankfein was out there with Mr. Buffett, Mr. Gates Sr. and a few others, making the case that he and his type don’t need the loophole that allows them to pay a tax rate one third what you and I pay. They’re already doing just fine, so KEEP the money, let us pay a standard tax rate, or dare we say, even a little higher rate? We’re doing just fine without an extra few billions.
Ah, the Warren Buffet canard. First of all, Mr Buffet isn’t “making BILLIONS”. He holds assets that represent unrealized capital gains in the several tens of billions (primarily shares of Berkshire-Hathaway). If BH were to go belly up tomorrow, his holdings become worthless. His company pays him a salary of $100,000 each year, and he “earns” a few million dollars every year in interest and dividends. This income, plus his salary, is what he pays taxes on, much of which is taxed at the lower capital gains rate rather than income tax rate. Quoting his tax rate, based on CG rates compared to his secretaries, based on income tax rates (and not at his or her *effective* income tax rate, at that) is apples and oranges.
Mr Buffet takes full advantage of the tax system to minimize his taxes. He has accountants and tax lawyers. He has clearly structured his affairs to minimize his taxes, as, for example, when he established trusts for his children.
It is further worth noting that when Mr. Buffet and his friends Bill & Melinda Gates set out to figure out how to improve the world, they created the tax-exempt foundation and donated billions of dollars to the foundation, rather than simply letting the government have that money. We have to ask why? Didn’t they trust to government to do the “right thing” with that money?
Finally, note that both Gates and Buffet, when they donated to the foundation, did so by giving away appreciated shares of their respective companies, thus garnering for themselves the largest tax break possible–not only did they *not* have to pay GC taxes on the gains (substantial they were, too), but they get to claim the *appreciated* value as a deductible charitable contribution. So, if WB had been granted one share of BH when it sold for $1000, he would owe income taxes on on the $1000. But if he held that share until BH sold for $200,000 per share, he would owe income taxes on the $1000, and CG taxes on the $199,000 difference. But by donating the share to the foundation, he still owes income taxes on the $1000, pays no CG taxes, and gets to claim $200,000 charitable donation (which can go a long way to offsetting any other income he has).
I suspect none of these folks writes a check for more than one penny more than what they can possibly reduce their taxes down to. I’m certain I’d have heard if Mr Buffet had written a $10B check to the US Government when he was advocating higher taxes.
Dave R.
July 19th, 2011
3:41 pm
“What is a Dodd-Frank?”
Do they plump when you cook ‘em?
Jay
July 19th, 2011
3:41 pm
Redeye, you can’t claim to be basing your argument on facts and then turn around and try to ignore the facts.
Everything I posted is accurate. I’m sorry if you don’t like it or wish it were different. It’s not.
The CBO was predicting a 2009 deficit of $1.2 trillion before Obama even took the oath. So blaming it on him is false. Period.
And the same conditions that drove the ‘09 deficit so high — higher mandated recession-related spending, lower recession-related revenue — have continued to plague the budget. Have some of Obama’s programs contributed? Yes, of course. But their impact is pretty minor compared to the annual deficit baked into the budget and the impact of the recession.
Sorry. That’s just reality.
Bosch
July 19th, 2011
3:42 pm
Dave R.,
LOL!
I don’t know, but it’s something apparently so bad it’s broken the United States of America!!
WOODSTOCK MIKE
July 19th, 2011
3:42 pm
@AmVet
Please allow me to remove my foot from my mouth, thanks AmVet. I just assume everyone is a Dem on here besides me, Dave R, Thulsa, and possibly a few more…. We stand our ground though…
Paul
July 19th, 2011
3:43 pm
Fletch
Thanks.
“Broader concept” it is. But many are not comfortable operating outside the boundaries of “them or us.”
@@
I think I get your point now, which is a nice segue into the rest of your post.
I read ‘giving guidance” and ‘telling people how to frame their arguments” and what comes to mind is asking people provide a cite for their assertions. To answer the question at hand and not divert. I do like to ask “If you are asserting this, and we change the condition, what does that do you the principle you’re advocating”?
I don’t much care for generalities without specific backup. Gets back to personality and education training. Had instructors who would rip students an new one of they’d assert something and didn’t have two or three cases or journal articles to substantiate it.
Makes for shorter discussions, too.
BTW – using the pool much? Just got a robotic sweep – way too much $$ but it does exactly what I need so it’s worth it.
Bosch
July 19th, 2011
3:44 pm
Woodstock Mike,
Just so you know, the only political party I’ve ever actually belonged to was the GOP. If anything, that should tell you how far right the party has gone.
Fred
July 19th, 2011
3:44 pm
Bosch? You really don’t know? I thought you were kidding.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodd%E2%80%93Frank_Wall_Street_Reform_and_Consumer_Protection_Act
1811/0311
July 19th, 2011
3:44 pm
Headline: “Boris fines Obama for not paying congestion charge”
“Barack Obama’s presidential motorcade has been fined for not paying the congestion charge in London.
And you can’t say that the US president was not warned.
London Mayor Boris Johnson button-holed him at a State banquet in May to raise the issue of US diplomats in London not paying the congestion-busting levy. They have run up a bill of more than £5 million since 2003.”
Well, there you go …………………. maybe he should also be fined here for not paying the “anti-transparency” fine.
Paul
July 19th, 2011
3:45 pm
Bosch
“PAUL! WHAT DID YOU DO THIS TIME?”
Must be spillover. Went to see “Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part 2″ yesterday and the magic bolts are still flying about -
Fletch
July 19th, 2011
3:45 pm
PAUL – “But take a group earning a tenth or a hundredth of that group and increase the tax rate by 20 percent, well, an extra thousand dollars is worth much more in its effect for someone earning $30,000 a year as opposed to three million dollars a year.”
You’re right in that regard. If everyone paid a flat tax rate of 20%, then the employee making $40,000 will need to payout $8,000 just in tax alone, thereby reducing his take home pay to only $32,000 with no exemption options to off set the hit. In other words, he takes it head on. Someone reporting say $1,000,000 would take a $200,000 hit, but still retains $800,000. Under the current tax code that $40,000 a year employee still takes a hit, but can claim limited exemptions and deductions to soften the blow, but it’s still hard. The $1,000,000 earner who, if he’s smart, can utilize the tax code to shield a good portion of the earnings to where he pays almost nothing while at the same time generating earnings in the form of investments and dividends that can also be shielded. Simply put, those who have more typically have more options.
SKH
July 19th, 2011
3:46 pm
“SKH, what’s been released is very confusing.”
Well, it obviously needs to be fleshed out a good bit, but I think it holds promise for doing something significant – wouldn’t you agree? In answer to your question, it seems both are true. The 1T in tax increases would come from closing loopholes, it appears. And the tax relief would come from lowering tax rates across the board, I think.
Bosch
July 19th, 2011
3:46 pm
Fred,
No, I really didn’t know, thanks for the reference, so how has an attempt to fix Wall Street RUINED, I say RUINED, the United States?
Jay
July 19th, 2011
3:46 pm
skh, it also mandates an awful lot of savings to be found in health–care programs without specifying how or where. Some of it is surely smoke and mirrors, such as:
“Review total federal health care spending starting in 2020 with a target of holding growth to GDP plus one percent per beneficiary and require action by Congress and the President if exceeded.”
Since health care costs have been jumping at GDP growth plus 6 to 10 percent, that’s a pretty big magic wand they’re waving. Note that the magic isn’t due to take effect for nine years….
Paul
July 19th, 2011
3:47 pm
Bosch
And like Dave R hoped to hear, it IS all josef’s fault.
It just went away and then came back. For some. If it would’ve been me, it’s would’ve been like the president in Dave: “When I kill something, it’s dead. It doesn’t come back.”
Bosch
July 19th, 2011
3:47 pm
Paul,
Can you believe that me, Bosch of the Bookman Blog, who loves all things Harry Potter, who could win a HP trivia competition hands down, has not yet seen that movie?
Midori
July 19th, 2011
3:47 pm
Dave @ 3:41–
:lol; 
Jay
July 19th, 2011
3:48 pm
As to the tax contradiction, skh, both the tax relief and tax increase numbers read as if they are net numbers. And they can’t be.
I’m sure there’s an “explanation.” I’m just not sure it’s one we can buy. But yes, more explanation and detail will be forthcoming.
Paul
July 19th, 2011
3:48 pm
“Sorry. That’s just reality.”
Like that’s going to make a difference to some people -
Fred
July 19th, 2011
3:49 pm
Bosch: I’ll be damned if I know lol. I didn’t make the stupid claim, i just googled Barney Franks.
Joe Cool
July 19th, 2011
3:49 pm
“Obama praises ‘Gang of Six’ plan on debt crisis”
Translation, CONs HATE IT!
SKH
July 19th, 2011
3:50 pm
“Some of it is surely smoke and mirrors…”
No doubt. The devil is in the proverbial details. But I would hope these things will be hashed out before the bill is drafted. It has, incidentally, been sent to House members for review.
Soothsayer
July 19th, 2011
3:50 pm
How Your Social Security Money Was Stolen – Where Did the $2.5 Trillion Surplus Go?
The Social Security Trust Fund should currently have $2.5 trillion in surplus. So how is it that these checks could stop being issued if the debt ceiling isn’t raised?
“The government’s $2.5 trillion debt to Social Security is the real reason that so many politicians want to cut benefits. They are trying to find a way to avoid having to repay the looted money…. Given the fact that much of the surplus revenue from the 1983 payroll tax hike ended up in the pockets of the super rich in the form of income tax cuts, I propose a special tax on this group of taxpayers to recoup the missing Social Security money. The government used revenue from the Social Security payroll tax hike to fund tax cuts for the rich because that was where the money was. I think the government should recover the ‘embezzled’ money by taxing the rich.”
Fred
July 19th, 2011
3:51 pm
Whoops, I meant Dodd Franks……..
Fletch
July 19th, 2011
3:51 pm
Not to play partisan politics, but given the recent line up of GOP candidates for the Presidential race, can anyone tell me if Rupert Murdoch will wrap up his hearings in time to throw his hat into the ring?
1811/0311
July 19th, 2011
3:51 pm
Paul:
Headline: “I have prescribed medication that I take whenever symptoms arise, and they keep the migraines under control,” Bachmann said in her statement. “Let me be abundantly clear — my ability to function effectively has never been impeded by migraines and will not affect my ability to serve as commander in chief.”
“Prescribed medication” …………… fine. What is it? What’s the dose and how often?
If it’s an anti-depressant ………. in my opinion it ’s a big, big problem.
Someone earlier was alluding to some of her previous “spaced out” news conferences. To be honest, I noticed one real bad one. I remember thinking what is she doing ?
She’s one of my favorite candidates right now but I call ‘em like I see ‘em.
SKH
July 19th, 2011
3:52 pm
“Translation, CONs HATE IT!”
That would be an incorrect statement. I just heard Michael Medved talking positively about it. It looks interesting to me.
Paul
July 19th, 2011
3:52 pm
Fletch
I must warn you, you’re about to be hit by charges of “wealth envy!! You really make $25,000 a year and you’re making it all up.”
If the blogosphere is at all representative of the larger population, there is indeed reason to be concerned.
Bosch
July 19th, 2011
3:52 pm
If it’s an anti-depressant ………. in my opinion it ’s a big, big problem
OMG, Scout’s gone all Tom Cruise on us.
Shovel Ready Jobs and other Tales
July 19th, 2011
3:54 pm
“Not to play partisan politics, but given the recent line up of GOP candidates for the Presidential race, can anyone tell me if Rupert Murdoch will wrap up his hearings in time to throw his hat into the ring?”
We are all hoping. And – this will delight the liberals here – I hear that Marrion Barry is going to challenge Obama for the Democratic nomination!!!
MPercy
July 19th, 2011
3:55 pm
DebbieDoRight @12:33 pm
I think you’ve missed the point in your fake shock. The data comes from the the Department of Energy, Census Bureau and other government sources, verifiable by footnoted references (I have posted in a link earlier for one such source). So the fact that it is reported by Heritage doesn’t mean the data is biased by Heritage bias.
Instead, the Heritage report’s primary claim is, I think, substantiated by the data.
“For most Americans, the word “poverty” suggests destitution: an inability to provide a family with nutritious food, clothing, and reasonable shelter. For example, the Poverty Pulse poll taken by the Catholic Campaign for Human Development asked the general public: “How would you describe being poor in the U.S.?” The overwhelming majority of responses focused on homelessness, hunger or not being able to eat properly, and not being able to meet basic needs. That perception is bolstered by news stories about poverty that routinely feature homelessness and hunger.
Yet if poverty means lacking nutritious food, adequate warm housing, and clothing for a family, relatively few of the more than 30 million people identified as being “in poverty” by the Census Bureau could be characterized as poor. While material hardship definitely exists in the United States, it is restricted in scope and severity. The average poor person, as defined by the government, has a living standard far higher than the public imagines.”
It then goes on to point out the high number of “poverty” households that have what a few years ago would be considered expensive luxuries a few years ago. “Today, most poor families have conveniences that were unaffordable to the middle class not too long ago.” Items such as A/C, multiple TVs, big TVs, cable TV, computers, high-speed internet access, dishwashers, in-home clothes washers.
It also points out, fairly, that “there is a range of living conditions within the poverty population. The average poor family does not represent every poor family. Although most poor families are well housed, a small minority are homeless.” And “Although most poor families are well fed and have a fairly stable food supply, a sizeable minority experiences temporary restraints in food supply at various times during the year.”
I think it’s accurate to say that many people use the word poverty without understanding the real status of very large percentage of those who are defined as “below the poverty line”. That is, they conflate “lower middle-class” with “poor” with “poverty-level” with “destitute” with “homeless-and-hungry”. Rethinking this notion is helpful: why should we provide welfare payments to people who use it to pay for cable TV and XBoxes, beer & cigarettes, etc?
Fletch
July 19th, 2011
3:55 pm
Paul – ” must warn you, you’re about to be hit by charges of “wealth envy!! You really make $25,000 a year and you’re making it all up.”
Thanks for the warning, but I’ve been there before. I won’t post my account numbers, but anyone is free to look up Air Atlanta Helicopters if they need a crumb.
Paul
July 19th, 2011
3:57 pm
Bosch
I went to the 5:30 pm show. Theater was maybe 25 percent filled.
Scout
If you want to see an interview that might make you rethink support:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHYgSgj9OME
Shovel Ready Jobs and other Tales
July 19th, 2011
3:57 pm
“I think you’ve missed the point in your fake shock. The data comes from the the Department of Energy, Census Bureau and other government sources, verifiable by footnoted references (I have posted in a link earlier for one such source). So the fact that it is reported by Heritage doesn’t mean the data is biased by Heritage bias.”
That is probably too fine a distinction for DDR to grasp, MP.
Paul
July 19th, 2011
3:59 pm
Fletch
It is rare (and confusing to many on this blog) to have someone hold positions on the basis of principle, not upon personal gain.
Joe Cool
July 19th, 2011
4:00 pm
SKH,
If Prez O likes ANYTHING, the CONS hate it.
1811/0311
July 19th, 2011
4:01 pm
Paul:
That’s not the one …………..
I’m talking about one that she just kept “staring” at the camera and answering every question with the same answer. It was weird ………… and like I say ………. I love most of her policies.
Bosch:
For example, Xanax is used to treat serious migraines. If you want your president on that stuff fine …………… just take the nuclear codes away.
Jay
July 19th, 2011
4:01 pm
Fresh Bachmann sheets
1811/0311
July 19th, 2011
4:02 pm
P.S. to Bosch:
Cruise’s problems are more likely due to Scientology ………………..