Immigration bill clarifies a once-muddy debate

The Georgia farmers survived after slavery was abolished and they will survive the illegals leaving. The passage of HB87 may not be the popular thing to do…but it was the right thing to do.

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A courageous and humane column. Well thought through proposals to uplift all.

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Turn the sun off for a day. Move Israel to Mexico. Mexico becomes a bastion of economic growth and the Mideast is left to itself.

It is hard to imagine leading a country (Mexico) with so many intelligent, hard workers, with so many natural resources, and one has to risk their life to leave the country. I suppose the real solution is to continue enabling this grotesque result and wrap it as “great humanity”.

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You are not seeing the forest, you are seeing a few trees. At most the agriculture industry needs some thousands of part time workers [ the few trees]. The problem is that we have many millions of illegal aliens in the country [ the forest ].

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The chances of a federal immigration bill appear to be less than slim.

There is no one on either side of the debate willing to compromise with the other side. So we will not have a bill than does anything to resolve what to do about 11 million plus illegals in the country.

So what will we do? Nothing. We will continue the same policy we have had for the last 25 years.

The only difference is the several; states are now passing laws trying to control the flow of illegals within their borders. So we have cases on the state laws heading for the Supreme Court.

Since Congress and the White House have refused to address the issue for the last 25 years we can now expect the Supreme Court to resolve the issue.

That is what happens. Congress refuses to legislate an issue, the issue gets to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court “legislates” the issue. We call it “legislating from the bench”. We call it “activist” judges. We have been doing this since 1803.

We say we do not like either “legislating from the bench” or “activist” judges. But we refuse to handle the issues in the legislature. So the Court steps into the vacuum and makes a decision.

The history of the Supreme Court is as much a history of a failed political system as it is a history of a court.

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Oh yeah, there’s no bigotry behind this illegal bashing. None at all

Oh yeah,there’s no bigotry behind your post either. None at all

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Bookman:……. we are long past the days when we condemn a population to servitude in manual labor,…..

Are you actually referring to ACORN in sort of a Freudian slip?

Or perhaps your indentured collection of minorities that continually blindly vote democrat because that is what they have always done?

Perhaps in actuality this is a back door ploy for amnesty?

Why be so sneaky Bookman?

Media stooges these days just come out and say what they really mean, becoming more frantic as they realize their day is coming to a close in 2012, and will say or do anything their DNC masters instruct them to do.

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willy: The Georgia farmers survived after slavery was abolished and they will survive the illegals leaving.

Yes they found the marvelous feudal system called “share cropping” — worked wonders!! They put former slaves on the land, said it was “their land” (with a few stipulations), made them pay for the seeds, the plow and the mule to farm the land, then took 98% of the profits! THAT’s American ingenuity (with a feudal twist).

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Are you actually referring to ACORN in sort of a Freudian slip?

Grow up…….Sheesh!

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aquagirl as usual screams bigotry and racism. Illegal is illegal (except if you are a potential dimocrap voter).

address your misguided (to be kind) attitude that we need to legalize the millions of illegal, welfare class people having strings of children

I will be soooo glad when school lets back in.

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babyslug, school will be back in session next November when barry the boy blunder is told he has two months to pack his gladrags and get out. Graduation Day.

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Man, for so many here to have the answer to our problem, nothing has been done since Reagan. I’m no longer amazed by the armchair quarterbacking. Just more examples of how disfunctional our society has become. I’m sure before too long, the name-calling and other childish crap will commence.

Y’all have fun with what y’all do best…

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Despite all the political rants about illegal immigrants, nothing but harassment will ever be done to stem the flow of determined newcomers or to recognize “undocumented” persons as citizens.

Americans are not ready for the sensible, time-proved solution to the immigrant problem: acceptance of all who are willing to work and to adapt to the rudiments of our culture.

So let’s just keep venting our prejudice and outrage until time and circumstances wear us down to accept the inevitable!

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Excuse me: It’s early ………. three points ………….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zANvYB93u2g&feature=related

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If the ag. industry can’t afford to pay market wages for labor, then they will fail. It’s called the free market. Love it and eat peaches imported from Chile. They are better anyway.

America doesn’t need non-strategic industries like ag anyway. The only reasons ag survives in the US anyway is corporate welfare and illegal labor.

The ag industry needs to quit mooching off the producers.

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If they are here illegal, round them up, send them back or punish them and then send them back, I’m just sick of paying for them.

Joe, you’re gonna pay for them either way you look at it, so prepare to stay sick of a long time.

If you round them up to send them back, you have to pay for the round up, detention, court costs, and deportation costs. If you round them up, punish them, and then send them back, you have the additional costs of housing them in jail/prison for whatever time they’re sentenced. Either way, it will be an expensive undertaking. I don’t have faith in anything being done anytime in the near future with the whole Taxed Enough Already crowd yelling so loud that they’re drowning out the rest of the voices here in the US. Until sanity makes a return appearance to any and all dialogue here, we’re screwed.

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1. Ten million rednecks with pickup trucks.
2. Forty million illegals.
3. Load illegals in beds of pickup trucks.
4. Give rednecks guvmint gas money.
5. Drive to Mexican border.
6. Dump illegals across border =
7. Problem solved.

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aquagirl as usual screams bigotry and racism.

When I read bigoted, racist posts, yes. That’s a pretty normal reaction if you don’t like bigotry and racism.

If xenophobic rants don’t bother you, there’s probably a reason.

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be careful babyslug, you forgot to play the race card, oh well, you must be new. granny, amvet, debbiedonothing, joesmama and the rest of the bedwetters will fill you in.

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aqua, sorry I’m not scared of people of any color, but as a taxpaying citizen, I don’t like being around some people, thieves, liars, criminals, welfare broodmares…….

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A solution is clearly needed. But, aside from the seeming inability of Congress to get anything meaningful done unless facing an apocalypse, what I don’t get is the fuzzy thinking politicians (and even their constituents) have concerning illegal immigration and other matters involving principle. I would like to ask them a simple question: if a few strangers broke into your house and took up residency there for some years (though they mowed the lawn for you and did some other household chores), would that be alright with you? Illegal immigration is wrong, period. Try illegally immigrating to China (or even Mexico for that matter) and see what happens to you. Similarly, does anyone go to sleep at night without first locking their doors? We need to seal the borders! How foolish is it to have porous borders in a post 9/11 era? What do they do when a deadly disease appears in the population? They quarantine!

Those points aside, I should think if anyone deserves preferential immigration status it would be the people in our two great neighboring countries – Canada and Mexico. They are our friends and neighbors. If they wish to come here to work, let’s accommodate that desire with a guest worker program. If they want to actually immigrate here, let’s move them to the top of the waiting list. But do it legally, for Pete’s sake. But we should not condone the illegal actions of immigrants already here by simply legalizing them. Amnesty was already granted once back in the 80s. What did that accomplish? It apparently told everyone in other countries that there is no penalty for violating the sovereignty of our great nation, because millions have illegally immigrated here since then. What should be done with these people is the great question. They need to pay a price for 1) breaking the laws of our land 2) stealing goods and services to which they are not entitled 3) using our country rather than trying to be a permanent part of it. What they have done is wrong and many people (like those running businesses) have looked the other way because they were personally benefitting from the cheap labor – the rest of us picking up the tab be damned.

Had Congress acted to create a guest worker program and given preferential immigration status to our neighbors back in the 80s, we wouldn’t be having this conversation now. But, if they had acted to solved our unhealthy dependency upon foreign oil back in the 70s after the first oil embargo, our economy would be in much better shape and there probably wouldn’t be such a problem with terrorism (which is being funded largely with oil money). Let’s get people in Congress who will come up with and implement wise, constructive and viable solutions to our great problems.

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Taxed Enough Already crowd yelling so loud that they’re drowning out the rest of the voices here in the US

Hmmmm do you mean people like these:

and pay HiGHER prices for that kind of labor intensive food.

They scream about taxes for infrastructure and schools, but say, out the side of their mouths that they wouldn’t mind, not one bit, paying more for food. Yeah riggggghhhhhttttttt……..

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The cons are nothing but agents of fear and apostles of stagnation of progress in this country.

well, that’s kinda harsh, and I’m sure most conservatives don’t believe themselves to be that…

but their leading intellectual light did proudly and famously proclaim that he wished to “[stand] athwart history, yelling Stop, at a time when no one is inclined to do so, or to have much patience with those who so urge it.”

…which is pretty much the same thing as being pro-stagnation and anti-progress, really. It just sounds prettier.

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Skipping this one.

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“And have Georgia farmers become dependent on that illegal workforce, in many cases building their entire economic structure on the availability of cheap and undocumented labor?”

They won’t get any sympathy from me. Didn’t they know slave labor has been outlawed for a while? Shame on the farmers.

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reyes are you afraid you’ll be sent home ?

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Why aren’t Mexicans protesting in Mexico City, instead of downtown ATL? They can take their country back from the corrupt politicians and drug lords. Why are Hispanics boycotting the All Star Game, while Hispanics are playing in it? Most are honest, hardworking people, why don’t they rebuild Mexico?

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“but in a federal law that simultaneously tightens laws against hiring of illegal labor while offering those already here amnesty”

Isn’t that what you meant Jay? And the answer to that is no. Thanks for playing.

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RRCC

July 5th, 2011
9:05 am
You make claim to several unqualified items. Where’s the True facts ?

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Links to support your BS claims?

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Quit being a racist and then you won’t have to worry about being properly labeled as such, roto rooter.

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“Acres and acres of crops now rotting in the south Georgia”

Interesting just got back from Donalsonville, and did not see any of the acres and acres of rotting crops, unless of course by acres and acres you mean 2. My family has 300 acres, and we have no issues with the labor pool, also same for the farms next to ours. Plenty of “legal” workers wanting to do a fair days work for a fair days wage.

As is typical of the media, they will find the couple of farmers who have modern day slaves and use them as the poster child for how bad its going to be on our farmers.

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If they are here illegal, round them up, send them back…

And exactly how much are you willing to spend — on a per head basis — to accomplish this task of rounding ‘em up and shipping ‘em back?

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Two – businesses should not be punished for hiring an illegal. Its not their job to enforce a law, that is the federal governments (and its a damn shame the states are having to do the federals job). Anyone in the U.S. should be assumed to be here legally, by a private individual.

Oh please! Business is NEVER at fault right? I mean, if it weren’t for Business’ (esp. the ones here in America); we would’ve never heard of such things like salmonella poisoning and e coli.

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Has anybody kept count as to how many times Jay & Tucker have written about ILLEGALS?
How about GLOBAL WARMING?

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Call it like it is

Quit being self-righteous, only someone as ignorant as u would believe that there are no illegals in ur farm, I bet I can go in there and find at least five or six

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For example, do illegal immigrants perform labor that most Georgians are unwilling or even unable to do? The once contentious question now has an answer: Yes, in many cases they do.
++++
Over and over we have heard that if a Republicans state that people on unemployment have no incentive to seek work that the Republicans are also insinuating that the unemployed are unemployed because they are lazy.

But in an area where the unemployment is 12% according to the Georgia Deparment of Labor we have Jay insinuating thee unemployed in this area is unwilling to accomplish these jobs. Is Jay insinuating that these people are lazy and would rather collect unemployment than be gainfully unemployed.

You can’t have it both ways. Making one argument when you want unemployment insurance extended and another argument when promoting the interest of illegal immigrants.

http://www.dol.state.ga.us/pdf/pr/lf_altamaha.pdf

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Curtis Rivers,
” Now, we begin to pay the price along with the immigrants caught in this system.”

I think you meant ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS, please get your facts straight.

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Conservative lawmakers have allowed this issue to become what it is today, and have allowed nativist and hate organizations to shape the debate by using it to unify a base of easily-led people who know little of research, independent thought, and are often driven by emotion rather than by thoughtful logic.

Say it ain’t so!!!

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Kamchak

July 5th, 2011
9:25 am
MYTH: Immigrants drive down the wages of American workers.
FACT: Immigrants increase overall economic productivity and have no
significant effect on overall wages for American workers.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
++++
Please provide references.

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poison pen,

Well, the Rapture didn’t happen, so I’m guessing people left because they do not want to live in an “unfriendly to them” State.

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[...] Bookman, columnist for the Atlanta Journal Constitution says that Georgia’s new anti-immigrant law has exposed the hypocrisy in the state’s [...]

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But in an area where the unemployment is 12% according to the Georgia Deparment of Labor we have Jay insinuating thee unemployed in this area is unwilling to accomplish these jobs. Is Jay insinuating that these people are lazy and would rather collect unemployment than be gainfully unemployed.

If someone has a degree in Computer Engineering and is used to making $35/hour; why would they go out and apply for a job (in the hot sun) that pays them $10/hour? If they wanted to make that type of wage, they could apply for a job at WalMart as a greeter — at least it has air conditioning and benefits.

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Doggone,

Not for free.

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“Not for free”

Care to expand on that? It doesn’t seem to make any sense.

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Please provide references.

I spent over thirty years in the new home construction biz. I have first hand experience with builders not accepting bids from sub-contractors and telling us, “If you won’t do the job for $x, then we can find Mexicans that will.”

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Neo-cons operate on little more than hurt feelings and hyper-emotionalism.

As a rule, they are not practical, pragmatic, informed or reasonable.

Want proof?

Ask any one of them here, how to *effectively* deal with this illegal immigrant problem.

The harebrained “‘answers” are generally hysterical, or not forthcoming…

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Amvet (not) when did I ever say or do ANYTHING related to hating the troops ?
You do a disservice to our troops with your false claims.
You make all these claims and call everyone names when they don’t have believe in your socialist ways, you provide no proof because you CAN NOT.

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“Care to expand on that? It doesn’t seem to make any sense.”

Paying for goods and services a foreign concept to you?

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Everyone wait for it the Great Amvet (NOT) knows the answer to the illegal immigrant issue, no one but he can think like he does.

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“Paying for goods and services a foreign concept to you?”

Who do you know who DOESN’T pay for goods and services?

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Looks like brother AmVet has a stalker.

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Baby Suggs – “If someone has a degree in Computer Engineering and is used to making $35/hour; why would they go out and apply for a job (in the hot sun) that pays them $10/hour?”

If that was the only option other than starvation, than I would guess they wouldn’t be to picky. However, we have more than enough “safety nets” to ensure that no one will ever have to worry about harvesting in the hot sun to survive. Probably a good thing we didn’t have many “social” programs in the 1930’s. Kind of hard to imagine this country without Hoover Dam.

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“I accept that the majority opinion should prevail in this nation”

No it shouldn’t. Would you support majority rule if, for instance, the majority decided that all blue-eyed blond people should be forced to leave the country? Our laws and courts are there precisely to protect the minority from the “tyranny of the majority” – and before you say so, yes, vice versa as well.

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“And perhaps just as important, we are long past the days when we condemn a population to servitude in manual labor</strike) government dependency, allowing them to do that but dream of nothing else."

It is a swap off for the DNC. They choose dependency over manual labor.

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Amvet (Not), I am going to do us both a favor, I am not going to call you a liar, I will not even tell tou to provide one ounce of proof that I have EVER been anything other than supportive when it comes to our troops, I am not even going to say how you resort to name calling when you are being outed, heck, I am even going to get off line, after all it is time for my walk, just think I will be outside walking enjoying life and you will still be the same old miserable you.

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Carlosgvv — “Telling millions of people who have seriously violated our laws we will let them become citizens makes a mockery of the law.”

Um, no. It’s not a *serious violation* of our laws at all. The Federal government treats it as a document offense; about on a level with driving without your license and registration.

I’m sure some folks would *like* for it to be a horrendous felony, but the fact of the matter is that it simply isn’t.

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“I’ll show you plenty of folks that are not paying for goods and services received”

Not even the clothes they wear, the food they eat, and the homes they live in? Pity I can’t actually take you up on that bet. I could use the money.

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THE TRUTH
July 5th, 2011
9:59 am
“…one ounce of proof that I have EVER been anything other than supportive when it comes to our troops…”

THE TRUTH
July 5th, 2011
9:59 am
“Amvet (Not)…”

LIAR.

That was easy, huh, troop hater?

Are you one of those never served, never-will chickenhawks turned peacenik?

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)? WTH?

“And perhaps just as important, we are long past the days when we condemn a population to servitude in manual labor government dependency, allowing them to do that but dream of nothing else.”

It is a swap off for the DNC. They choose dependency over manual labor.

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People don’t realize how much help they get, but think they can do it all on their own.

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Let’s take a ride down the street on this fine sunny “work day” and I’ll show you plenty of folks that are not paying for goods and services received

godless…..here’s a suggestion. Use the video cam on your phone and video all these people you can identify from your ride. You can email it to Jay and if it is conclusive proof as you claim, I am sure Jay can post a link.

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Doggone,
If one has no job and no desire to get one, how, pray tell, do they do they pay for clothing, housing, food. Sorry, I forgot drug dealing, pimping, whoring, lottery winnings, and inheritance.

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“I don’t think you are reasoning this through correctly. If the majority decided that 1) all blue-eyed blond people (of which I am one) should leave the country and 2) elected a sufficient number of Representatives and Senators who 3) made that a Constitutional amendment, I guess I would have to leave (remember that Supreme Court justices can be impeached).”

You left out the most important step. See if you can figure out what it is.

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You completely overlook the fact that we have legitimate temporary guest workers, and THAT is the program that should be expanded – not rewarding those who enter illegally with a pathway to citizenship.

There is no concrete reason to send another signal to the world that entering in violation of immigration law is a guarantee of citizenship one day. That was the absolute worst message we sent in 1986.

If it costs more for food because farmers pay more for labor, so be it. Regardless of any increase, it pales in comparison to the amount of welfare costs associated with amnesty for millions of unskilled workers whose needs are enormous. In reality, most of those farmers aren’t really farmers. They’re big business: corporate agricultural concerns.

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“Plessy upheld “Separate but Equal”, but it wasn’t all suffering.”

True enough, but I was thinking of the institutionalized racism that resulted from the decision, and the beatings, lynchings, degradation, humiliation that was almost condoned in its wake. The decision probably made racist whites feel like they had permission to do these kind of things. I have a number of black friends, most of whom grew up in the South – one even became a Black Panther in his youth. So I have acquired some second hand understanding of what was suffered.

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SKH

Ok… Understand what you were saying much better.

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I find it interesting that we lament low wages paid to unskilled, semi-skilled immigrant workers at the same time that we bash unions for wanting too much in the way of wages and benefits. We lament the loss of manufacturing jobs in the US and blame unions for creating the offshore explosion after years of demanding a living wage. Then we state that American workers will work the unskilled, semi-skilled jobs that immigrants hold if the employers would just pay them a living wage. Isn’t that ironic?

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deegee

Laughable too!!

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“You left out the most important step. See if you can figure out what it is.”

I no longer play guessing games as I have found they are counter productive and lead to foolish arguments rather than honest debate. If you have a valid point, make it – for my benefit and everyone else’s. I don’t HAVE to be right, you see. I say what I think is right and if someone knows better and tells me, than I am enriched.

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” Would you support majority rule if, for instance, the majority decided that all blue-eyed blond people should be forced to leave the country?”

Well, I certainly would not, because I like living here and would refuse to leave.

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Not a easy answer to the problem but wouldn’t we all agree that first thing that needs to happen is securing our border ?

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Paul, in case you drop by, did you have a happy birthday yesterday?

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Who’s gonna pay for it?

I guess the same people that will pay for our $14,000,000,000,000.00 debt!

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For example, do illegal immigrants perform labor that most Georgians are unwilling or even unable to do? The once contentious question now has an answer: Yes, in many cases they do.

Well it always had an answer, to anyone with eyes to see. It’s just that people in some quarters wanted — and will continue to want — to deny the fact or to pretend that it doesn’t matter. Lack of political courage allowed this canard to live.

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Is the new immigration bill responsible for droughts, insects, floods? All of these are faced by the farmers, and result in a lost crop, just like the lack of pickers. It is a problem that can and will be overcome, you people just don’t know how inventive working people can be.

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Beause to even TRY is going to cost a HUGE amount of money.

Wow, so just give up?

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“Wow, so just give up?”

How much are you willing for you taxes to be increased to pay for it?

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:and as a liberal *I* am tired of being accuse of things that aren’t true. And so I stopped reading your rant after the lie about all liberals. If that LIE wasn’t PARTISAN, then nothing is.:

And as an EOI on this blog, I’m tired of all the short-tempered partisans who call every error, imprecise wording or mistake a LIE.

A lie is a statement deliberately made when the person making it KNOWS the statement to be untrue.

Until everyone on this blog develops ESP and KNOWS what everyone else knows before posting, or until facts are put in evidence that disputes the statement and the originator still sticks to their story, the word “lie” should be banned from everyone’s repertoire.

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The thin guy….well said…there are maore parasites living off the tax payers than destroying crops.

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Doggone/GA

” Please find and post a link that shows how illegal immigrants can claim welfare. I’m sure they will be VERY interested to know.”

Doggone, If you go to the GOA and check 11/19/1997 you will find a study that Illegals got 1.1 Billion in false aid. That was all kinds of aid, not just walfare.
The study was done in 3 or 4 states only.
The illegals have a child here and then use that SS# to scam the Govt. this is only one way.

Please check out the site, this was done 14 years ago and as you know we have had millions of illegals sneak over our borders since then, so I would think that the cost is a lot higher now.

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“The illegals have a child here and then use that SS# to scam the Govt. this is only one way”

If that child is born on US soil, then you are talking about a US Citizen.

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what’s EOI, again?

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“what’s EOI, again”

Equal Opportunity Instigator

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Hi Bosch! Doggone, Dave, Kammy-Kam, Poison …

hope everyone had a lovely 4th!

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Doggone – (chuckling) – oh, yeah, that’s right …

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Completely *sealing* our borders is as ludicrous as was Reagan’s Star Wars.

The smartest approach is what BHO did earlier this year, send more funds and National Guard and other manpower to the BIG problem areas like San Diego County…

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Bosch

“the word “lie” should be banned from everyone’s repertoire”

Well Dave R., it is lying to say that all liberals believe or think something when nothing can be further from the truth. It is a dishonest statement, in other words, a lie.

“making it KNOWS the statement to be untrue”

” So either the person who makes such blanket statements is either a) a dumb ass for making such false sweeping generalizations, or b) a liar because they KNOW such statments are not true, but do so anyway.”

Bosch, Does that apply to your 8:09 post also?????????????????.

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LOL– “Mr Right – of course securing the border is the FIRST step, but try to sell that to a Liberal/Progressive. You can’t repair the damage from leak until you STOP the LEAK!”

I disagree. If we make it painful for businesses to hire illegals — knowingly or not — and give them the tools to instantly determine if a job applicant is legal or not — then we will remove all incentive and reason for them to COME here AND to BE here.

Throw a few business owners and big businessmen in jail for employing illegals and then there won’t be any jobs here for illegals any more. And they will stop coming then — and the ones who are here will self-deport.

When you want an elegant and simple solution, ask a liberal.

When you want a simple solution that makes some people feel good but won’t actually solve the problem, ask a conservative.

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Hmm, and what would that be?

Glad you asked.

But Americans also want to be assured that this is the last time a broad legalization option is offered to illegal immigrants. Democrats ought to make it clear that they’ll enforce the borders and crack down on employers who hire illegally, a cheaper and more effective strategy for addressing the problem than building fences. After a few CEOs have done the perp walk for illegal hiring, they’ll stop offering jobs to those without proper documents. And when word gets across the border that U.S. companies have stopped hiring, those laborers will stop coming. They come for jobs, after all, not jihad.

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Instigator? I always assumed it was IDIOT

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I hate it for the farmers, and the losses are real…BUT, the losses are small compared to the crime these illegal alien leeches cause as well as motor vehicle accidents and indigent medical costs…

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Poison – sadly, the Brits don’t recognize the 4th of July (I wonder why ???) – but everyone at work was very kind!

Bosch – ohsweetjeebus … fried okra … I’m drooling on my keyboard – my mom and I used to make that and eat it as fast as it came out of the pan! the family was always very confused on why a huge bag of raw okra resulted in a small bowl of fried okra

oh, and you were right on the £££ with how I feel about immigration – if I and my mister had to jump through hoops, then EVERYONE ELSE CAN, TOO, DAMMIT

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First, the thread…well said, Jay.

As for the cost of HB87, we won’t know that insofar as the agricultural sector is concerned until the harvest is in and marketed. Right now that is an unknown factor, but it is raising the question in more real terms. We’ll see.

Second, those talking about the post Civil War and the institution of share cropping. No doubt that’s the “solution” those in power now are looking for, a modern day version thereof. And just for the record for those out to play the race card on that one, sharecropping threw millions of white landless and ruined peasants into the same camp. Then when it became clear that the landless could see common cause across race lines, we wound up with the big boys here and Up North alike seeing it in their best interests to do all within their power to pit black and white against each other. I can see something very similar in the works here.

BOSCH
I am here, didn’t scroll back too much on this one…who said what about native Americans?

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Doggone – woohoo!! more waterfalls! I need to check out the bloggy goodness when I get home

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“If we make it painful for businesses to hire illegals — knowingly or not — and give them the tools to instantly determine if a job applicant is legal or not — then we will remove all incentive and reason for them to COME here AND to BE here.”

amen.

and amen.

and all god’s children said A-FREAKIN-MEN

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BOSCH

“Liberals want everybody to be granted citizenship”

Add me to the list of those liberals who don’t call for citizenship for everybody…

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“Well Dave R., it is lying to say that all liberals believe or think something when nothing can be further from the truth. It is a dishonest statement, in other words, a lie. ”

No, Bosch, it could also be imprecise wording (something our host is prone to do from time to time as well).

Heck, the insertion of a single word in that earlier statement would have made it true.

Insert “politicians” after “liberal”.

But since it sounds so much more poutrageous when you can accuse someone of “lying” it works for all too many people on this blog.

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“In 1986 Ronald Reagan signed a sweeping immigration reform bill which included enforcement measures but also opened the way for amnesty”

And the problem with that bill, which is quite likely a direct influence on our current problem, is that Congress never funded adequately the ENFORCEMENT measures included.

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Hi, USinUK.

My 4th was GREAT. Thanks for asking. Do you still celebrate over there?

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Hey Bosch!

First post, first at the top.

heh heh heh….

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Greetings and salutations USinUK

In light of Villa-boas’ positive role model campaign, it looks like Ashley Cole is doing the mea culpa thingie.

Now that I think of it, a lot of Blue Lions are gonna hafta do the mea culpa thingie.

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“it always the people that give the jobs fault!”

In the case of illegal immigration…yes, it is.

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Illegals by definition are criminal law breakers! Regardless of the reason they are here they are illegal and criminal! Does not matter whether they are Mexican, Chinese, Russian, black, brown, white, yellow, THEY ARE ILLEGAL AND CRIMINAL!~ THEY HAVE NO CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS, PERIOD!! As for farm labor, there is the TEMPORARY WORKERS VISA! They are legally allowed to be here, must comply with reporting laws, must leave when the visa expires, and, they can come back again, LEGALLY! The good intentioned amendment that state someone born here is a citizen has been misused grossly! i\It was to insure the children of slaves were no sent back to Africa, and, has been used by liberals to insure all those born here are automatically made citizens! THAT IS WRONG! If the parent(s) are illegal then the child should also be an illegal-non citizen! It should only be applied to a child whose parent(s) are LEGALLY IN THE USA!!!!

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Thin guy…

O-si-yo, Duk-sha-ni u-ne -ga

All right, who ARE the native Americans and who ARE the illegal aliens?

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“THEY HAVE NO CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS, PERIOD!! ”

actually, yes, they do. There’s nothing in the Constitution that limits it’s protection of inherent rights to ONLY legal citizens.

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…it always the people that give the jobs fault!

Always?

No.

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hi josef!

Then when it became clear that the landless could see common cause across race lines, we wound up with the big boys here and Up North alike seeing it in their best interests to do all within their power to pit black and white against each other. I can see something very similar in the works here.

If something works, you stick with it. While we’re busy arguing about racial matters, all of our jobs, black, brown, red, white and blue are being sent overseas at an alarming rate. The irony of course is that they are being given to just another type of “brown” person.

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Bosch, you should have NEVER pointed out that quote to josef on native Americans.

Just sayin’!

Next, he’ll be going all “Andy Jackson this and Andy Jackson that” and the rest will be just ugly . . .

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As Dan Ackroyd would say, Zeke, you ignorant slut…

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zeke – if you are in the US – whether you are a tourist or an illegal immigrant – you are still covered by the US Constitution – just as, if YOU were vacationing in Columbia, you would NOT

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Bosch – Wimbledon … gah … would rather watch paint dry

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“And even then, it’s possible that the Supreme Court could invalidate such an amendment if it violated other provisions of the Constitution. Even atification is not a guarantee.”

This is news to me; as far as I know they can only invalidate laws and not Constitutional amendments. Even if that were true (and I don’t have time to research it now), Supreme Court justices can impeached, so it’s certainly hypothetically possible that the Congress could impeach and remove an “intransigent” justice or two if it were bent on doing so.

Now that we have this cleared up, was there a point you wished to make besides the nitpicking?

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A crop picker is a tool, used to do work. Some picking is ‘dumb work’, meaning no determination is needed to decide if it is ripe or not. A machine can do dumb work, cotton gins, balers, reapers, thrashers. If a need exists, some inventor will invent it. Not all crops need to picked by hand, technolgy will improve if there is a labor problem. It always has.

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Bosch – Paul is, indeed, the epitome of cool. we agreed that we wouldn’t reveal personal deets, but suffice it to say, he’s neat-o

not that we didn’t know that already

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Dave – – they save their fireworks for 2 things: New Years and Guy Fawkes …

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“Who says YOU are the only EOI ”

Never claimed to be, Bosch, as YOU well know.

But since lying is lower than whale manure in my book, I am cautionary when throwing down that particular accusation.

Would that others were as well.

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I would LOVE to be over there for Guy Fawkes!

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“not that we didn’t know that already”

Fer rizzle. Yo.

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Bosch

It’s not about what Cole has done now, I think it’s the cumulative effect of all the incidences.

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Moderate Line

July 5th, 2011
11:01 am

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5312900

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Illegal Immigration: The Impact on Wages and Employment of Black Workers

http://www.cis.org/articles/2008/briggstestimony040408.html

April 4, 2008

Vernon M. Briggs, Jr.
Emeritus Professor of Labor Economics
Cornell University
Member, Center for Immigration Studies Board of Directors

Testimony Before the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights

Because most illegal immigrants overwhelmingly seek work in the low skilled labor market and because the black American labor force is so disproportionately concentrated in this same low wage sector, there is little doubt that there is significant overlap in competition for jobs in this sector of the labor market. Given the inordinately high unemployment rates for low skilled black workers (the highest for all racial and ethnic groups for whom data is collected), it is obvious that the major looser in this competition are low skilled black workers. This is not surprising, since if employers have an opportunity to hire illegal immigrant workers, they will always give them preference over legal workers of any race or ethnic background. This is because illegal immigrant workers view low skilled jobs in the American economy as being highly preferable to the job opportunities in their homelands that they have left. A job that pays the federal minimum wage of $7.15 an hour (some states and localities have even higher minimum wages) is often several times higher than the daily wage they could earn in their homelands, if they could get a job at all. Even the worst working conditions in the United States are typically better than what many have experienced before they came to this country.

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“I like hearing the ideas proposed – some actual thoughtful ideas to deal with a very real and pressing problem. It would be so refreshing to not hear the stupid insults and name calling because it doesn’t get us anywhere. ”

Well said, openmind

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Tho years away, Hydroponics is coming . People will literally be able to harvest crops in a temperature controlled, light controlled envirionment. A new wave of indoor farming is on the horizon, no soil will be required. It will not replace regular farming, but it can be used to grow food near or in populated areas, reducing transportation costs and near large labor pools.

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While no solution appears clear in solving our illegal immigrant problem, if we had any thought of enforcing our laws we certainly could incent these illegals to self deport by:

1. Placing an ICE agent at every “choke point” for accessing our governmental services like; healthcare, welfare, schools, etc.
2. Denying any entitlement program to non-citizens or requesting their proof of citizenship to continue on a program. A good example would be; allowing for an illegal to receive treatment at a hospital, but if they could not pay for their care, they get a one-way ticket to their country of origin after returning to health, with threat of incarceration if they ever return..
3. Ending birthright citizenship unless 1 parent was a US citizen. This is even more forgiving that any other developed country, which will not allow citizenship without some serious time and monetary committments.
4. Allow workers to have a pass to work, but are taxed like citizens without any chance of receiving one iota of benefits from uncle sam, ever. The fees generated from the program would go to funding the creation of a secure border to stem the tide of subsequent “unlicensed” illegals.
5. Require illegals to provide a bond ($1,000) that guaranteed their behavior while in the US that could be forfeited in case of auto accidents, sickness, etc. to cover the taxpayer costs.
6. Require companies that hired illegals to pay an annual fee ($1,000) for bringing these workers into their company for cheaper labor. This would cover some of their drain on normal taxpayers.
7. Deny social security to any party that had no proof of either working in this country or at least 1 parent with citizenship.

These are just a few things that could be negotiated. The point is that we can no longer afford to carry the fixed costs of a non supporting illegal worker program, especially in this economy.

Can add more later, but we have to start somewhere…….

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Paul – no friendie request, yet

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This issue pits my logical self against my emotional self, both slapped around a bit by my principled self. At the end of the process I find myself back at the same place. We are a country of laws, not men; and we must adhere to the Rule of Law versus the Rule of Men or we will have no basis or foundation upon which to stand over the long haul.

Without secure borders we lose our sovereignty and controlled governance over various aspects of an ordered society in which we can all live and be assured our individual rights will be protected. In failing to address the border security; North to South and ocean to ocean, we essential implement amnesty to law breakers; open borders; and an undermining of our ultimate freedom.

It is somewhat akin to the debt ceiling dilemna; that being to address but one aspect of the problem and suggesting solutions that would be possible only in a vacuum. Now, back to some thoughts reagrding the illegals.

1) A streamlined program must be divised whereby those non-citizens, not already here but desiring to become citizens can apply for citizenship and follow the procedures. Learn some U.S. history and learn some basic english and demonstrate enough assets to survive for at least twelve months upon lawful entry. Illegal entry across our borders will make one ineligible for future citizenship.

2) A program allowing migrant workers, not desiring permanent residence or citizenship, to apply for a “growing season” entry visa and be housed and overseen by the farms needing the labor. The farm would post a bond for each worker and be responsible for “delivering” the migrant worker back to the border prior to the expiration of the visa and thus have the bond released.

3) A program whereby every illegal immigrant currently serving time for a conviction, other than for the illegal entry alone, be immediately deported back to their home country. They could apply for citizenship through the regular procedures.

4) A program whereby all persons currently here via illegal entry must register with the government and provide a valid and verifiable address and then be issued a registration card which can be used for purposes of identification if confronted by law enforcement. This card would not allow for any benefits nor be used as a substitute for a drivers license or work permit, but would allow them to not be arrested for illegal enrty. They could not move without updating thier registration card.

5) Persons here illegally at the time of enactment must register and then may apply for either a permanent work permit or citizenship or both. The work permit would be issued relatively quickly; would generate a taxing mechanism other than just sales/payroll tax, but would not allow participation in social security or other social benefits afforded to legal citizens. The employer would be responsible for reporting if these people left their employment so they could then be re-classified and monitored through other means. Each illegal entrant worker would have a portion of their pay withheld and contributed to a state sanctioned and monitored private health insurance co-operative.

6) Driver’s Licenses would only be issued to those persons able to pass a test in english and demonstrate a functional level of spoken english.

7) No person born within the borders of the U.S. shall be deemed a citizen of the U.S. unless born to a citizen of the U.S.

Add or subtract as you felt led, although my intent is not to engage in an all day back and forth with anybody here. I actually need to get busy on a project, but wanted to take a few minutes to jot down some thoughts. I stipulate the above to be “top of the head” in general but rooted in many years of personal reflection. Peace be upon you!

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If it weren’t for jus solis a helluva lot of those yapping here and now wouldn’t be citizens…just remember that when Angelo, Haim, Natalya, Laszlo, Jerzy, Kristof and company were getting off those boats back at the turn of the last century to do the dirt work in the sweat shops, their little anchor babies (that’s great granny and grandpa) would not have passed the muster of those already here and established…same thing with Bridgette and Paddy back in the 1840s, Jean Claude and Antoinette back in the 1810s…

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Dave – “Without MANAGED, LEGAL, immigration, America could not have grown in opulence, abundance, and become the leader that it is now!”

meh – it wasn’t particularly “managed” in the 1800s and early 1900s – particularly along the borders … or do you think “dose Cajuns” went through Ellis Island in a neat and orderly fashion on a detour from Canada?

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“The answer to this dilemma will come not in piecemeal state legislation, but in a federal law that simultaneously tightens laws against hiring of illegal labor while offering those already here a path to citizenship. Anything else is fruitless.”

Sounds great, but the devil is in the details. What sort of path do you propose? How does that path compare to the paths of those who have chosen to obey existing law? Does that path take into consideration the fact that laws have been broken? Finally, once we tighten the laws against hiring illegal immigrants and then the human interest stories emerge about how those laws are causing pain, inconvenience, and the like, will those laws be ignored like the current immigration laws? In a way, this is just like the debt ceiling – what will be different next time?

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Dave – my gramma went through Ellis Island, but my granpa crossed from Canada into NY without showing nary a paper – that was back in the 19-teens

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Kam – I like to think there are three kinds of people …

those who can count and those who can’t

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“Without immigration, America could not have grown in oppulence, abundance, and become the leader that it is now!”

I wasn’t aware that fetuses immigrate to other countries. I don’t understand the logic of awarding citizenship to people simply born here; it seems irrational to me. We don’t call a calf born on a pig farm a piglet and we don’t call a baby born on a tour of a Vanderbilt mansion rich, yet we call the offspring of illegal immigrants legal citizens. Is it me (doing his best Martin Short imitation)?

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SKH,

Because all of those scenarios are the same and all geez.

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USinUK, I certainly think we had a better handle on immigration before this influx. Heck, both sets of my grandparents were from the Canadian Maritime Provinces (New Brunswick and Newfoundland).

All came in legally and 3 of the 4 became citizens (one died before making the grade).

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Uncle Jed, a very thoughtful post! I will consider it in some detail when I have more time.

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Dave R.,

How can you go wrong consuming a sausage roll? I mean, it’s a sausage and a roll — two of life’s finest pleasures. Just don’t get hung up too much on what is actually in the sausage and you’re fine!!

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Dave – sausage rolls with HP sauce — proof of a benevolent god who loves us

josef – fine … last half of the 1700s, mister stickler-for-details

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The Mother of All No Brainers

Even your conservative supporters think you are nuts, GOP “leaders.” Time to get with the program, or prepare to lose BIG in 2012.

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” why in Heaven’s name would we allow them to manage our health care”

Rest easy, we haven’t asked them to

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Yep — “we certainly could incent these illegals to self deport by:”

Did you read my 10:50 post? I think that would be a lot simpler and less costly than all the items you’re proposing.

1. Placing an ICE agent at every “choke point” for accessing our governmental services like; healthcare, welfare, schools, etc.”

And do what? Say “papers, please” to everyone who tries to enter? This seems incredibly intrusive — especially for citizens, particularly burdensome — most children can’t substantiate their citizenship, and also quite costly.

“2. Denying any entitlement program to non-citizens or requesting their proof of citizenship to continue on a program. A good example would be; allowing for an illegal to receive treatment at a hospital, but if they could not pay for their care, they get a one-way ticket to their country of origin after returning to health, with threat of incarceration if they ever return..”

It is very difficult to affirmatively *prove* citizenship, so your proposal seems burdensome and predicated on a presumption of guilt.

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DAVE

Immigration was not at all regulated back then…that’s why “they” were able to come in the millions…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_immigration_legislation

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Adam,

Read that this morning, I liked this:

But we can have no confidence that the Republicans will seize this opportunity. That’s because the Republican Party may no longer be a normal party. Over the past few years, it has been infected by a faction that is more of a psychological protest than a practical, governing alternative.

But to members of this movement, tax levels are everything. Members of this tendency have taken a small piece of economic policy and turned it into a sacred fixation. They are willing to cut education and research to preserve tax expenditures. Manufacturing employment is cratering even as output rises, but members of this movement somehow believe such problems can be addressed so long as they continue to worship their idol.

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“at least until a global economic depression effects some change in thinking”

Geez, SKH, were you visiting another planet in September ‘08?

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Bosch – 11:56 –

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If GA Ag farmers would pay $20 an hour and allow workers to collectively bargain, hell, yes they’d have an All-American labor force that would do the job! These farmers brought all their troubles on themselves! $8 an hour and STFU attitudes by farmers need to change!

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USinUK,

OMG, maybe SKH is really Interplanet Janet!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDre36ZW14I

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They would love for all of the “little” people to return to being uneducated tools that can be manipulated and used to make big business omnipotent.- Debbiedoright

The evidence suggests that its the Democrats who want all the people to be uneducated tools. If you don’t believe that than look at the APS news on the homepage of the AJC today. The big education teacher’s unions and the Democrats who run school boards in most of the big cities couldn’t give 2 flips about whether or not the kids are being educated. They care solely about their jobs, their pay, political power, and patronage. The idea that the Democrats actually care about educating kids is ludicrous when they vehemently oppose any efforts to actually educate the kids or when they oppose efforts to try any new ideas such as charter schools, vouchers, testing standards, etc.

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Children born in America of illegal parents have the “sins” of illegality placed upon their head. The children are legal and the parents are not. It is a sad dilemma created by the illegals themselves. Now they want someone else to correct the problem they created. How human and wishful!

But laws are made for the good of the country and its citizens, not for the advantage of a few. If we are a democratic republic, the majority rules by established law based on our constitution.. That has to be the role our country must play. Anarchy is not a goal we wish to achieve.

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josef – I hear ya! folks seem to think the “porous border” is a new phenomenon

Paulo – lightening + thunder = free lightshow!

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Well, let’s cut the bull-hockey and get to the point. If these illegals became citizens and were going to vote Republican, most of us Conservatives would be fine with the path to citizenship. But we know good and well they’ll vote librul Democrat. Maybe because we insulted them a little and called them a few names and made sure they had a rough time. So I say deport them all right now! Case closed! If you find a illegal that’s a sure-fire Republican, come talk to me then.

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Dave – mmmmm … bangers and mash with onion gravy … nomnomnom …

don’t forget bubble and squeak! (leftover potatoes and brussel sprouts – you have it on Boxing Day)

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Thinking that David Brooks is a conservative supporter is nuts.

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SKH,

Yeah, cause it’s so much more credible to compare my accusation of plagarism to a woman accusing a dude of raping her.

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USinUK — “meh – slap on the wrist. here, employers are fined up to £10K PER ILLEGAL”

What’s the GBP – USD exchange rate lately? About a buck sixty? So that’d be $16,000 per violation?

That sounds about right. PER GUY PER DAY. Under that plan, employing a single illegal for 90 days would cost upwards of $1.4 million.

If being here illegally is such an OMIGODCALLOUTTHENATIONALGUARD moment, then surely the penalties associated with *employing* such threats to the good order of society should be harsh as well.

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Dave – David Brooks IS a conservative. no matter how you slice it.

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“don’t forget bubble and squeak!”

With names like that Lord knows WHAT they could have done to “sausage rolls”.

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David Brooks may be a liberal’s idea of a conservative, but he’s not conservative.

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I just think wayyy too much:

Dusty: Children born in America of illegal parents have the “sins” of illegality placed upon their head. The children are legal and the parents are not. It is a sad dilemma created by the illegals themselves.

But why would anyone want their child born in a different country if they cannot be legal residents? Is it because their own country is SO bad, that just giving their child the opportunity to be an American Citizen is worth any punishment?

What would the solution be? Should we fix the other countries so it’s not worth coming to the United States to have a child?

Or, should we destroy the US economy so that we are worse than the other countries? That seems to be the thoughts of those who would allow the US to default on its debt.

So, I see the logic and reasoning of those who want the US to default on the debt. It’s to get rid of all those illegals!

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Do not give able-bodied US citizens unemployment benefits during planting and harvest seasons. Provide them with job applications for vacant agricultural positions. Provide them with gas money or transportation to jobsites – even provide small per diem subsistence if necessary until first pay check. No one is too good for farm work. I did it. It is honest work.

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dave – or maybe conservatives have skewed so ridiculously far to the right that anyone to the left of them looks like a socialist

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Dave — “With names like that Lord knows WHAT they could have done to “sausage rolls”.

It may be a haul for you, but on the Marietta Square, there is an Australian Bakery that serves sausage rolls (no idea if they are like the British version), but what my wife and I go there for are the MEAT PIES. They’re a bit like minced/ground meat Pop-Tarts,with a soft bread crust. Some have mushrooms, some have onions, some have a lot of black pepper, but they’re all quite tasty. And they make a pork pie that I understand is very much in the British style. When we go, we get a few extra beef pies and stick them in the freezer. Three minutes in the microwave and you have a hot, tasty lunch.

Well worth a stop IMO if you happen to be in the area.

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DebbieDoRight 11:47

Don’t apologize! I love it when you comment on what I post. You always prove my point.. And you did it again. You are one of the most typical of liberal bloggers but more entertaining and straight from outer space. Always fun, dear one. Always.

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“dave – or maybe conservatives have skewed so ridiculously far to the right that anyone to the left of them looks like a socialist”

Possibly so, USinUK.

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“Yeah, cause it’s so much more credible to compare my accusation of plagarism to a woman accusing a dude of raping her.”

Sometimes exaggeration makes a point more strongly. The problem is accusing people falsely – try doing that in court about any criminal offense and see what happens if you get caught. Why is it okay in a blog but not in court? Is it okay for people to come over to your house and dump drinks and food on your furniture and carpet? No. But it is apparently okay for everyone to do that in a movie theatre. Why? The only explanation I can come up with is double standards.

I apologize if I offended you by possibly implying you were a rapist; I was not at all.

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Dave R. Somebody needs to give up their blog name after that 12:10 post . . .

LOL. I did toss in the caveat that “I think wayyy too much”

Sometimes my mind goes into other places and makes odd connections.

It helps sometimes, but sometimes I get connections like my 12:10 post. Not that it’s true, but it sure is fun to run down some of the alleys my brain goes.

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Logical Dude

July 5th, 2011
12:15 pm
Meat pies
Bangers & Mash
Sausage Rolls

And Yorkshire Pudding!!!

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The answer to this dilemma will come not in piecemeal state legislation, but in a federal law that simultaneously tightens laws against hiring of illegal labor while offering those already here a path to citizenship. Anything else is fruitless.

I think you’re right on.
Problem is, as long as it’s “fruitful” for politicians to be perceived as being tough on Illegals, most proposed solutions will be fruitless, imo.

ps: It’s nonsense to suggest they go back and apply legally. A Tucson attorney sez they’re still processing applications from the 1990’s!

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Joe Mama—- If you are too stupid to recognize that illegal immigration and our national debt are two different topics, then I am afraid I cannot help you.

Yall libs are saying we can’t afford the money to secure our borders so it would there is some connection! Sorry if you are SOOOO— SMART that you can’t see it !

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Excellent article Jay. You hit the nail on the head. Of course, you won’t change the right wing thought process here – which is denial. What is great is the higher food prices that will result. Then the righties will blame Obama.

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Dave R.: “Largely, yes. But he was also a realist when it came to what could be passed by Congress.”

That’s a fair enough assessment of things.

However, very few politicians retain their core principles once elected.

Tell me about it, brother.

Hope and change, anyone?

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OMG, maybe SKH is really Interplanet Janet!!

ROTFLMAO!!!

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Mr Right — “Sorry Joe Mama, You know since I’m so stupid I do those things!”

Well, that certainly would explain it.

Look, I had a suggestion that I thought would *eliminate* the reason for illegals to come here and which would encourage those illegals who were already here to split ASAP. Did you have a substantive criticism of that idea or not?

Did you even READ it?

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Logical Dude 12:10

You take taken an illogical route from illegal immigrants with legal children to somehow default on the US debt. That is twisted logic a snake couldn’t follow.

We can pretty much guess at why illegals come here. Mostly economic reasons. There is some reason to believe that they think their legal children will anchor them here. Not so.

There is little reason to believe that the economy of the USA depends on illegal labor. I do not believe that agriculture will stop and food plants close without them. That is pure conjecture expounded by activists and journalists needing bloggers.

NO, we do not “rebuild or remake” Mexico, Guatamala, etc. That is their job. We will only if they have weapons of mass destruction or practice genocide.

Now, what was it you wanted illegal immigrants to do? Uphold/lift the debt limit? I believe they could help by going to their legal country. They can work on Mexico or wherever. We, legal US citizens will work on the debt limit There’s no doubt about THAT..

. .

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Obama is spineless and doesn’t love America!

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While progress continues in automating many of the tasks associated with agriculture including improving crop varieties to be more appropriate for machine harvesting, the reality is there will always be a certain amount of agricultural related work that will need to be done by hand.

For those that underestimate the impact a complete shutdown of illegal agricultural workers would have on supply and price, think again. It won’t be a “little more” for a pound of tomatoes, etc. it will be a significant rise.

Why? Because the vast majority of Americans have no interest in doing the back-breaking work.Many Americans are not physically capable of doing the work (given obesity rates) and would not do the work in the hot summer sun for 10 hours a day.

It would take a huge rise in wages to lure some Americans to man the fields. I for one wouldn’t do that back-breaking work for anything less than $18-20 an hour and then only if the job came with benefits.

The prescription would likely mean a doubling in the price of domestic agricultural products that are dependent on manual labor. That will either be highly inflationary or will drive domestic producers out of the market and more of our produce, etc. would come from other countries where we have less oversight on the use of pesticides, etc.

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APS: The evidence suggests that its the Democrats who want all the people to be uneducated tools. If you don’t believe that than look at the APS news on the homepage of the AJC today. The big education teacher’s unions and the Democrats who run school boards in most of the big cities couldn’t give 2 flips about whether or not the kids are being educated.

Yes, yes I know — it’s all the evil Teacher’s Union fault for wanting to be paid what they’re worth!! It’s all the evil teacher’s union’s fault for cutting salaries and education budgets. It’s all the Evil teachers’ union fault for trying to put “creative design” on stickers in Cobb county schools. It’s all the Evil Teacher’s Union’s fault for trying to rewrite history, by adding disclaimer’s to science books, and by taking out the arts, humanities and physical education in the budget.

Darn those EVIL TEACHER’S UNIONS!!!!! Darn them to HELL!!!

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“Ever studied the stages of moral development?”

Paul,

Isn’t that Abraham Maslow among others? I liked his little pyriamid thing. You see lots here that seem to never get past the whole “safety” level.

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The only thing that matters is that these people are illegal criminals that broke our country’s laws to get here and many of them break more laws when here. They need to be deported immediately! The framers will find people or new ways to get their crops to market.

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Jay, You miss, your Mexico Legal Citizens-USA Illegal Aliens?
Farmers receive subsidies from the government and want to continue receiving ILLEGAL taxpayer funded subsidies, through education, healthcare, foodstamps, and now trying to do the dream act again!!
You invite them all to “your House”!! The farmers owe the taxpayers and citizens, for the deaths of loved ones by ILLEGAL Aliens!!
The Crop Picking is not your worry, stay out of it!!
The farmers will adjust without Illegal Aliens!!

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“The evidence suggests that its the Democrats who want all the people to be uneducated tools.”

I think you are greatly overshooting the mark here. Education is something I know and have thought about a bit. First, let me suggest that the biggest problem with the educational system is NOT the system (though that is deeply flawed), but poor parenting. Parents don’t do a good job of teaching their kids how to behave and instilling values and aspirations in them. Instead, they sedate or babysit them with drugs, television and video games. And should a teacher ever suggest their little Johnny or Suzy has misbehaved, a lawsuit is impending.

As for the system itself, I believe this is yet another instance of government (not necessarily Democrats) doing something badly. For one thing, it apportions far too much of its budget to physical plants (bright, shiny new school buildings) rather than to the people without whom education wouldn’t be possible: the teachers. You could almost teach kids in a barn with more good, well-paid teachers with much smaller class sizes and get far better results. Does anyone aside from a teacher or mother know how insane it is to stuff 30-35 kids in a classroom and expect a teacher to be effective teaching them five to six times a day? I’m certified to teach at the secondary level. Am I doing that? No! I make twice or three times what a teacher makes developing software. I love teaching, but it doesn’t love me.

For another thing, it now micromanages everything a teacher must do. Can you imagine Socrates following an extensive state-mandated curriculum? I think great teaching comes from a teacher’s individual expression of his or her desire or passion to turn a light bulb on in someone else’s head. It’s kind of a talent – either you have it or you don’t. We can reasonably expect teacher to cover essential material without making them slaves to some form of ritualized transference of knowledge.

For a third thing, sitting at a desk for 7 hours is NOT conducive to learning. Sure, some naturally academic types will do well in that setting (and perhaps always have), but most probably learn best by seeing (or reading) and doing – by moving around and physically engaging the subject matter.

For a last thing, it often forces most students through high school on a largely academic track. Let’s face it, not everyone is born to be a physicist or doctor. There’s is nothing wrong with that – and it doesn’t necessarily relate to intelligence. There should be a universal academic and technical track for students to pursue in high school (like there is in England). Why make a boy with a love of cars and an aptitude for troubleshooting sit in a desk for 4 years?

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“The broader issue is if we as a country do not recognize that a substantial amount of the U.S. domestic produce is in one form or another dependent on workers that are willing to do the back-breaking work. ”

How about this for a solution: establish a voluntary program for inmates at minimum security prisons to work at various low paying jobs “no one will take” (moving them around to different jobs to broaden their work experience) and place most of the money they earn aside in escrow for them. That way, when they get out, they will have 1) real work experience 2) money to get them started in a new, better life and 3) hope for a future. Has this ever been tried?

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Ref Hear Ye All Libs

I don’t know where you get the idea that liberals want the government to take more of our money and give it to others. I don’t know of a progresssive or liberal that is so cavailer about their money. The philosophical difference between many conservatives and liberals/progressives is that convservaties want to very strictly limit what government does beliving that the private sector and/or charity can do the other things. Liberals and proressives believe that there is a role for government beyond the military.

Do you consider yourself a spiritual person? Maybe even a Christian? Who are you to place a value on “people who aren’t worth a damn”. If you are a Christian that statement shows how little you understand your own faith.

And who gives you the right to decide for me what is the best use for my money? I for one want the military budget cut by 70% and spend that money here at home. But I can’t make that decision because I live in a society that has made a value decision that military spending is important. I can try to influence the discussion and vote for candidates that support my values but I have to accept that others will indeed influence and/or decide how my money is spent. That is the sacrifice I make for living in a civilized society. The only way to avoid that is to find an island and be a world unto yourself.

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Doggone/GA

“The illegals have a child here and then use that SS# to scam the Govt. this is only one way”

” If that child is born on US soil, then you are talking about a US Citizen.”

Doggone, Read the piece that I posted to and you will see what I said. Everybody knows that their child is a US citizen, they use the childs SS # to get free aid, while the parents are illegals.

You always ask for facts so I presented them to you.

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Well it looks like we have another OJ jury, Casey Anthony gets away with MURDER.

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“The philosophical difference between many conservatives and liberals/progressives is that convservaties want to very strictly limit what government does beliving that the private sector and/or charity can do the other things. Liberals and proressives believe that there is a role for government beyond the military.”

I’m not sure I would state it that simply, but for me the problem I have with government doing things is that it does them so poorly. And I think where liberals go wrong is that they do not combine compassion with wisdom. For example, I personally feel compassion for homeless people. But I know as a matter of fact that many of the are alcoholics and don’t really want to change all that much. So, when I drive by them at an intersection asking for money, I either bring them to a restaurant and buy them a meal or hand out breakfast bars with a lot of nutrition. I do NOT give them money – because by doing so I am enabling them rather than helping them.

I find this to be SO characteristic of government help. Take the tenament buildings built for minorities in the inner cities for example. If instead of building for them places they could inhabit temporarily, they had given them materials, supervisors and paid construction workers to help them build their own dwellings they would then own, I am sure the areas in which they were built would not have devolved into slums. What perhaps was lacking was not a desire to help, but an understanding of how things really work in life. People who are invested in something are people who care.

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“I have never seen such unity from normally mean selfish people.”

All people, Republicans and Democrats alike, can be and often are selfish by nature. How much more are typical politicians that way! If you don’t realize that, you haven’t lived long or you haven’t been very observant. Do you really think people driven mostly by ambition are good hearted and not selfish? Consider JFK, an American icon – often quoted and revered. Do you know what he was really like? Read a biography sometime. He was NOT a good man.

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I am married to and illegal immigrant have been since 2006 and have done every piece of paper work and paid 1000s of dollars to us goverment officials to try and get him legal documentation. We have a 12 year old daughter that worries about her dad daily not knowing what going to happen next. If you dont know any illegals how can u know why they are here, they don’t come looking for the american dream they come to feed their families. They are not legal so they don’t draw welfare, not possible and after they get legal until they become citizen they still cant get any assistance including social security even though they pay in. Their checks are taxed just like yours and mine and that money just sets in a Goverment bank somewhere. They are not here to still from you they don’t want your charity. The system needs to be fixed, but you just can’t round them up, some are married to citizen and children born citizen which means at sometime that child can apply for their parent to get papers but with it like it is now it is almost impossible. I have tried and have many other friends that have tried to legalize their spouse and even their children and the goverment wouldn’t grant the papers. The way the laws are set up for immigration aren’t working either way, it needs a change but a humane and fair one.

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The elephant in the room is we cannot organize anything well in America. Local government is corrupt at best, unethical and self-serving. A huge amount of the American economy is a Ponzi scheme with Los Vegas features. Charities take most for themselves and write it all off as tax deductable so the rich don’t have to pay taxes. Education is a foreign concept, yet we pay like we were delivered a product. The less education we get the more superstition becomes the catalyst that runs the masses over the cliff. The only hope we have is this systemic disease is passed on to our enemies as they enjoy the booty of freedom.

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Talk about hypocrisy, Democrats are in essence okay with paying illegal workers wages which are set at levels well below what they should be. In other words, because these are Mexicans the Democrats are just fine with paying them a wage that is exploiting the person because of their nationality and the fact they are illegal and willing to do work nobody wants to do.

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Simple answer? I guess all of life has a simple answer. It is when you give the wrong simple answer that things get complicated. How do we compete against other states more less only countries when we are lazy, fat and dumb?

You will find a barter system you had no idea existed. Maybe these people got free benefits, but they gave free labor too. I seriously think they got the short end of the stick unless we are being misled by how bad government health and schools are. I think what Americans ,especially the right, is going to find out are they have lied so much they started believing it themselves. Now the crops sit in the field. You are going to find this country is worse off and ultimately you are going to have enough rope to hang the truth along with all the rest of us.

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Otherhalf, what other laws should people be able to break and not pay the penalty for because they marry an American?

It’s too bad you made a bad decision to marry an illegal alien and have a child with him. Fact is, there are ways that he can legalize already, but they require he return to his home country and have you file for a waiver of inadmissibility. For your daughter to legalize him, he’d need to return to his home country anyway and face the 10-year bar to re-entry.

And by the way, your act in having a child here, knowing your husband is deportable, is just as short-sighted as those illegal aliens who choose to have children in their home countries that they can’t afford to support.

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Ali, I’m not sure how the federal guest worker program will work for these low-sklled workers that migrate with the crops. My understanding is a migrant farm worker might work in several states and for several employers over a 5 month period.

Wouldn’t they have to get a separate approval for each of those employers likely to have to return to their home country in between?

I am all for a program like that that will work. I just see the migrant worker’s situation being different than someone who is coming here to say work as a housekeeper or something that is a single employer, single location for the duration of their time.

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@GT

Sounds like you hate America, why not try moving to Europe and see how things are?

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The only way I see to solve this problem is to legalize those immigrants who have been here undocumented for a number of years WITHOUT a path to citizenship. People who endure the burdens of living “under the shadows” are not people willing to leave this country regardless of how tough laws can get. Those who are here with their family can stay together, those who are here alone cannot petition for anyone. Give them a Federal ID form, so they can get a drivers license and get their own health insurance. Give them a travel parole so they can visit their family when they can. Enforce tax laws to keep update with Uncle Sam. One felony charge or 3 misdemeanors ends their right to be in the program. Help american farmers to keep their business here. Whoever is not willing to do the type of work that undocumented immigrants do should not be in the way of all those who need that kind of manpower.

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I love America. Most of America does not think the way we do down south or they do in Arizona. You want to talk innovation check out how this state treats solar power compared to, say, North Carolina. Duke Power and that state has an edict to be using 30% green energy by the end of the decade. They give long term contracts, up to 20 years, from Duke Power to the solar energy makers. Georgia Power won’t go longer than one year in most cases. Even Arizona comes out of the cave when it comes to self sufficient energy.

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Totally off the point:
NOT GUILTY!!!!!
You have got to be kidding!!! I knew Florida was full of senile people but thiS???
Can you say O J Jury!!
What do they think, The 2 year old committed suicide and then wrapped herself up in a traskbag and threw her own body in the swamp??!!
What DOLTS!!!
anyone need a better reason to junk the 12 dolt citizen Jury and go to the German professional jurist system.
Another murderer on the street!!! Wonder if she is planning to enter and “Hot Body” contests tonight!!

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Ah Jay,
you never fail to inspire me!!!
your UP is DOWN approach to problem solving never wavers!!
This ,of course, is the “Reverse Little Dutchboy” way;
Instead of “sticking your finger into the dike to stop the flow of the North Sea” into your country your solution is it forget the hole, go get a teacup and try to bale out the country a cup at a time.
Can you say “Gurgle….Gurgle”??

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The excuses for using an illegal workforce are the same ones used to justify slavery. Look at old articles and you will see that its true. Farmers have to set their worker models based on a legal work force. Everyone business wants to pay cheap and make more profit but workers should also receive a fair wage.

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Cris you have found the nerve that pains me so. If the south had the correct facts fed to them, not some pulp fiction and then came up with this conclusion just because they are a mean lot, it wouldn’t bother me near as much as how the conclusion is arrived. It is the man that doesn’t want to believe his wife is having an affair under his roof or the parent who doesn’t want to believe his kid is on drugs kind of thing we have here. When people make up things or believe weak stories it is a sure sign they know the true but just can’t face it. Southerners want to think they are good kind and all they wrong deserve it. Every man on death row thinks he has a real reason to kill someone; it’s all those other inmates that are crazy.

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Move to Northern Mexico Jay!!
You can have a grand time there, including loosing your head !!

Also the farmers have made it for centuries in this country without your help !

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Stewie,

Budget point in your statement. It costs California over 12B a year (on the low side) ALONE in benefits for illegals. I think a paltry 1.3 over 3 years to rid ourselves of these law breakers a “bargain”!

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please tell me one job a law abiding citizen is “unable to do” that an illegal immigrant is…

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Jay, you are too quick to reach a conclusion as to whether Americans, with fair wage and working condition incentives, will do the work. I would also like to know where you get the scientific data as to how many acres of crops are rotting because of insufficient labor? All of the data and “studies” I have seen are anecdotal only and hardly scientific. Otherwise, of course employers have been hypocrits, but your solution is to find a way to allow them to continue to exploit illegal immigrants to the detriment of unemployed Americans. I guess that makes you a hypocrt, too.

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So what…we will eat fewer Gerogian blueberries, and survive. If we really really want them,w e will pay extra.

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This is such a great debate for Georgia. We say no to public transportation and cry on 400 during rush hour. We scream at illegals but gladly buy products built with their labor. We love effective tax rates for corporations being dropped to nil, and then ponder our crumbling infrastructure and ineffective school systems. Oh, and meanwhile the middle class shrinks. Of course its due to liberal policy and lazy minority work ethic. Could NOT be due to outsourcing of all manufacturing jobs. Getting gov’t out of the way will clearly solve everything. Yessir, this is a great debate. This is definitely the most pressing and important topic for Georgia. Rounding up and kicking out people who are employed and paid by Georgia businesses is the way to go. Even though it has gone on for decades it needs to change NOW. Because once they are rounded up and kicked out, somehow and someway, things are gonna get good.

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Good column Bookman. I wanted to post something positive to show not everyone in Georgia has their head in the sand. I live in rural Georgia, and I am 100% on Bookman’s side. If you ever ran a small business in Georgia that required manual labor, you would be too. And they are not cheap, they get paid like any American would. In my neck of the woods, very few Americans last more than a few weeks.

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More propaganda for the dishonest businessmen who live of state subsidized illegal labor. Sounds like welfare to me. There are visas available for the farmers, and the non agriculture jobs will all be done by Americans. Saying they won’t is a lie to justify the lawbreaking.

Give 12-30 million people amnesty, and the businessmen will dump them the first chance they get for new illegal immigrants. They are working because they get paid less that comparative wages in the area, and won’t complain. As citizens, they can complain and demand better pay. Think it through, amnesty is not a solution, it just makes the problem worse.

The farmers need to get off the welfare wagon, and start using the visa system that is in place. It makes them responsible for housing and medical care, and stops relying on the taxpayers to bail them out.

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The amount of hate. Amazing.

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WHY ARE WE FORCED TO PAY…?

Can anybody clarify to me, why American taxpayers are forced by law to support people who illegally entered America from foreign countries? It is disturbing this is not charitable giving, but that this money is extorted from our taxes. This is just incurable and has a similar ring to the Obamacare care, which without consent of the majority of the general public that has been also shoved down the throats of US taxpayers. I can truly understand that most Americans desire to aid citizens and legal residents a helping hand in periods of recession or even falling on hard times. But how can the US government make us pay for a foreigner’s education or health care? This is by far one of the most serious issues befallen America, because people who arrive here should not be encouraged to stay by the Democrats or Republicans, either with pandering to them while illegally squatting in America, crossing borders, overstaying visas or coming into the US by ship.

It just goes to show that we cannot trust the US administration or those we place in high authority, to run this country and then gives the American people the finger? I cannot even imagine this nation’s future, where foreign nations seem to have more rights, than birthright citizens? It’s only come to light over the last years, that unknown to most Americans politicians they have used cagey practices to pass six small amnesties behind our back, bring in millions with special visas. The major amnesty was in 1986, its inception starting the chain migration from its original population spiraling to 6 million, at a final cost of 76 billion. However, that was 25 year ago and trying to estimate today’s costs, ranges from 2 trillion to 2.5 trillion dollars in legalizing at least 20 million people. ( Statistics of the Heritage foundation) Currently the New York Times and its ultra Liberal activists are trying to convince us all, that illegal immigration has slowed to a trickle? My observation of thousands of sovereignty groups see no credence this revelation, but if these reasoning was solid, what about the millions that have arrived here. It’s completely inconceivable or rational to the prudent mind in any government bureaucracy authoring another amnesty of any kind, when this great country is 14 trillion dollars in debt, with Obama’s boys trying to lift the debt ceiling even higher.

The Liberals that have infested the Democrats have ruined America with the Tax and spend policies. But this time they are not only confronted by the House Republicans, but the emergence of the All-American Tea Party. Not at the assistance of the Liberal press, that this is just a timid group of dysfunctional people, but a very enthusiastic membership of all party affiliates that is straining to release itself from the usual, elitist GOP establishment. Thousands of cells or branches are reaching out to every moderate thinking American, to escape the Liberal extreme propaganda and even lies. This is the real people’s party, comprising of all races and religions and a rare representation of Blacks, Whites and Hispanics and other races. The general population who are joining the TEA PARTY means Liberal, Independents, Libertarians, Republicans and Democrats and other political associates, who realize finally how they have been deceived.

Leading the TEA PARTY front is Michele Bachmann (R-MN) chair of the Caucus and moderate Conservative by definition, who has taken the presidential race to the people. She makes no excuses for the financial mess the country is in, but is steadfast that unless the Liberal-Democrats start cutting the influence of giant government, we will arrive on August 2, without any guarantee of a compromise of passing the debt limit. Only majority leader Sen. Harry Reid of Nevada would look for answers, in raising taxes of any kind on taxpayers or industry. Unlike the wimps in the current Congress M. Bachmann speaks out about curtailing illegal immigration, constructing the real double fence, tracking visa over-stays and seeking out business owners who ignore the laws on the books. This lady has a strong resonating voice that draws attention to the principles of the TEA PARTY policies.

Bachmann is resolute in mandating E-Verify and Secure Communities, as these two tools alone could locate and apprehend illegal aliens in the workplace or by checking fingerprints, aides to inform ICE of violations. Through April 30, 2011, more than 77,000 illegal immigrants convicted of crimes, including more than 28,000 convicted of aggravated felony (level 1) offenses like murder, rape and the sexual abuse of children were removed from the United States after identification through Secure Communities,” ICE says on its Secure Communities website. A relative of mine who is a police officer informed me of a very new piece of technologically, that has been assigned to Los Angeles police station called “Blue Checks” He explains it in detail, that this new system allows officers to confront a suspect and request them to hold out their hand. The hand-held device digitally scans the digits of the suspect’s hands, and within minutes the official receives a full criminal background account on the person. Only those in the system have reason to fear if they are wanted for a crime of some classification.

This new piece of equipment is under bombardment by a whole group of left leaning activists, as seeing it as an evasion of a person’s privacy. The “Politically Correct” are already coming out of their grubby holes in the rotting woodwork, crying foul and hoping that the lawmakers rescind its use. The ACLU doesn’t like “Blue Checks “saying the device is an invasion of privacy. Imagine criminal aliens who have reentered the United States being apprehended immediately that may save thousands of American lives. Supporters say they’ll be able to find out if someone has prior arrests, in seconds, instead of hours. I see it as a brilliant compact that all should be placed with law enforcement including ICE. This small unit should have access to national Security agencies, connecting to the Social Security Administration, US Citizenship and Immigration Services and of course ICE. Every patrolman should be issued with this module as it offers instant recognition and could catch, illegal aliens using fraudulent ID.

Immigration laws have been ignored for far too long, and the last I heard there were an estimated 8 million aliens in jobs that Americans should have been hired for? This is incomprehensible when 9.3 percent of own people remain out-of-work. This is plain stealing and employees should be held to the highest penalty allowed by law. WHY COMING TO A SOVEREIGN LAND ILLEGALLY IS NOT A FELONY, MAKES NO SENSE TO THE MAJORITY OF THE AMERICAN POPULATION. Michelle Bachmann said she will enforce the 1986 Immigration laws, with no exception and zero tolerance that breaks these laws. It is the same with Governors and mayors who abuse city and State laws, applying a blind eye to Sanctuary Cities and States. This illegal immigration battle has been brewing for thirty years or more, except the law abiding people have finally come out of their somnolence.

Everyday blogs, articles and commentaries are crammed full of the abusiveness of previous and current administrations, overlooking intentionally the people’s needs and who have become supplicants to majority major organization, that place pack money in favorable politicians pockets. Bloggers and conservative entities describe the overcrowded schools full with the children of illegal parents; classrooms crammed to legal capacity. In the Southwest the phenomena of closing hospitals overrun with continuous streams of foreign nationals filling the waiting room seats, for every type of medical emergency and even minor colds and ear infections. The uninsured have silently entered this nation, with the purpose of applying for welfare with the backing of taxpayers’ money. These are mostly unfunded mandates forced on States, which have finally found a voice within the Canyon State of Arizona. Others have been quick to follow, including Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana, Maryland, Utah already enforcing selective laws, not restricted by federal court system. E-Verify are the best tool available to prevent jobs from going to illegal aliens, no matter what the other side of the aisle says? More than 260,000 businesses are already using E-Verify at nearly one million work sites, nationwide.

Remember foreign nationals have been voting in federal and State elections; authorities are should be obligated to ID everybody who registers.

This is about illegal immigration? An immigrant is not illegal and people need to be enlightened. Highly skilled Professional workers are always welcome, not indigent ECONOMIC illegal aliens who are driving this country, into a third world condition. We cannot accommodate any longer those who come here to steal welfare and public benefits from legitimate Americans. It is estimated that illegal aliens send home by wire transfer around $40 billion dollars annually, that should be going into state treasuries.

Don’t hesitate to reach the Senate phone switchboard—202-224–3121 and House—202-225–3121, and inform them you will not be manipulated into another clandestine Amnesty, disguised as the DREAM ACT.

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