Immigration bill clarifies a once-muddy debate
NOTE: This is the electronic version of today’s AJC column.
Whatever else it accomplishes, passage of House Bill 87 has brought a welcome clarity to the debate over illegal immigration in Georgia. It has cast sunlight where there used to be shadows and has forced hypocrisy out into the open.
For example, do illegal immigrants perform labor that most Georgians are unwilling or even unable to do? The once contentious question now has an answer: Yes, in many cases they do. Acres and acres of crops now rotting in the south Georgia sunshine offer mute testament to that fact that agricultural labor is hard, and that most people in Western industrialized countries don’t want to do it.
And have Georgia farmers become dependent on that illegal workforce, in many cases building their entire economic structure on the availability of cheap and undocumented labor?
Until recently, the state agriculture community had clung to the fiction that only a small and unknowable percentage of their labor was here illegally. However, as their workforce shrinks in the wake of HB 87, such denials have become impossible to sustain. The degree to which they have relied on illegal labor is now painfully clear, and will be reflected on many a bottom line.
In fact, farmers have until now enjoyed the best of both worlds. As long as lax enforcement of federal immigration law gave them access to a large, docile and for the most part invisible workforce, they could sit back and remain quiet in the politically charged debate over amnesty and other measures intended to rationalize immigration. (It didn’t hurt that keeping those workers illegal created an all-but-captive workforce that had few other options.)
Members of Georgia’s congressional delegation have long been complicit in that two-sided game. They have quietly blocked periodic attempts by the federal government to enforce immigration laws more stringently, while simultaneously railing against the presence of the very illegal immigrants they were helping to protect.
Passage of HB 87 has ended that sweet little arrangement. If the state’s agriculture industry wants continued access to that workforce, they need to become vocal advocates for some means of legalizing and protecting it. They need to publicly acknowledge that a population vilified by many as a drain on the state’s economy is in fact a necessity in much of rural Georgia, and they need to start electing public officials who are willing to make that argument in Washington and here in Atlanta.
If they have workers they want to keep, they need to fight for them. And that does not mean adopting the Utah approach of trying to “legalize” illegal immigrants at the state level, giving them permission to be in the state as long as they agree to remain in the fields picking crops and don’t have any higher ambitions. (HB 87 includes a provision calling for a study of that approach).
Such a program would be wildly unconstitutional. And perhaps just as important, we are long past the days when we condemn a population to servitude in manual labor, allowing them to do that but dream of nothing else.
By the way, everything that can be said about the political silence of Georgia agriculture industry regarding the fate of its workforce, and the price they’re paying for it, can also be said about other industries, especially restaurants, hotels and other service-related industries.
The answer to this dilemma will come not in piecemeal state legislation, but in a federal law that simultaneously tightens laws against hiring of illegal labor while offering those already here a path to citizenship. Anything else is fruitless.
– Jay Bookman
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420 comments Add your comment
Paulo977
July 5th, 2011
12:04 pm
USinUK
“sweet jeebus – talk about one of these things is not like the other.”
HaaaaaaaaaHaaaaaa…now you understand WHY some important measures are being stalled here!!!!
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
July 5th, 2011
12:04 pm
Well, let’s cut the bull-hockey and get to the point. If these illegals became citizens and were going to vote Republican, most of us Conservatives would be fine with the path to citizenship. But we know good and well they’ll vote librul Democrat. Maybe because we insulted them a little and called them a few names and made sure they had a rough time. So I say deport them all right now! Case closed! If you find a illegal that’s a sure-fire Republican, come talk to me then.
SKH
July 5th, 2011
12:04 pm
“SKH, while you are contemplating, you might want ask Uncle Jed where he stole that post from.”
I doubt your accusation has any merit, but why don’t you enlighten me? I have an MA in English and taught writing in colleges for about 5 years, so I usually have a good nose for plagiarism. In order for you to make a truthful accusation like this, you must be familiar with the original material. Point me to it, please. But if your accusation is baseless, what do you deserve? What does a woman who accuses an innocent man of rape deserve? If you have made a false accusation, why do it? You don’t really score any points that way and you lose credibility here. One doesn’t HAVE to be right, you know (because, despite strong feelings to the contrary, we often are wrong – LOL).
USinUK
July 5th, 2011
12:05 pm
Dave – mmmmm … bangers and mash with onion gravy … nomnomnom …
don’t forget bubble and squeak! (leftover potatoes and brussel sprouts – you have it on Boxing Day)
Watermelon
July 5th, 2011
12:05 pm
I just paid $2.67 over the weekend for a big, juicy watermelon from walmark the other day. They had pleny of em and at cheap prices. So what was Jay sayin bout all the handpicked crops like watermelons rotting in the fields?
Dave R.
July 5th, 2011
12:06 pm
Thinking that David Brooks is a conservative supporter is nuts.
josef
July 5th, 2011
12:06 pm
APS
You have no idea what you’re blabbering about…why? Teachers’ Unions? In Georgia? It’s pretty hard to exert the kind of power you allude to when they don’t exist….
Bosch
July 5th, 2011
12:06 pm
SKH,
Yeah, cause it’s so much more credible to compare my accusation of plagarism to a woman accusing a dude of raping her.
professional skeptic
July 5th, 2011
12:07 pm
Tamika
July 5th, 2011
8:38 am
The last time we did an amnesty, we just fueled the demand for another amnesty.
The same will hold true for hoarders of offshore profits, with regard to tax holidays.
Joe Mama
July 5th, 2011
12:07 pm
USinUK — “meh – slap on the wrist. here, employers are fined up to £10K PER ILLEGAL”
What’s the GBP – USD exchange rate lately? About a buck sixty? So that’d be $16,000 per violation?
That sounds about right. PER GUY PER DAY. Under that plan, employing a single illegal for 90 days would cost upwards of $1.4 million.
If being here illegally is such an OMIGODCALLOUTTHENATIONALGUARD moment, then surely the penalties associated with *employing* such threats to the good order of society should be harsh as well.
Paul
July 5th, 2011
12:07 pm
[[“If the Federal Government cannot manage immigration, work permits, and our borders, which they’ve proven they cannot, why in Heaven’s name would we allow them to manage our health care?”
sweet jeebus – talk about one of these things is not like the other.]]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ect-kgxBb4M
USinUK
July 5th, 2011
12:07 pm
Dave – David Brooks IS a conservative. no matter how you slice it.
Bosch
July 5th, 2011
12:07 pm
“Thinking that David Brooks is a conservative supporter is nuts.”
Nope Dave R., it just goes to show how loopy and hard right the GOP has gone.
He’s yours — own him.
Dave R.
July 5th, 2011
12:07 pm
“don’t forget bubble and squeak!”
With names like that Lord knows WHAT they could have done to “sausage rolls”.
Left wing management
July 5th, 2011
12:08 pm
USinUK: “Dave – David Brooks IS a conservative. no matter how you slice it.”
What’s a “conservative” ?
Dave R.
July 5th, 2011
12:09 pm
David Brooks may be a liberal’s idea of a conservative, but he’s not conservative.
SKH
July 5th, 2011
12:10 pm
“Geez, SKH, were you visiting another planet in September ‘08?”
No, but neither have I seen any soup lines. Who is saying we are now in a depression? My parents grew up in the Great Depression and (being the very curious sort) I have interviewed many people of their generation about what it was really like. Again, have you a point to make?
Logical Dude
July 5th, 2011
12:10 pm
I just think wayyy too much:
Dusty: Children born in America of illegal parents have the “sins” of illegality placed upon their head. The children are legal and the parents are not. It is a sad dilemma created by the illegals themselves.
But why would anyone want their child born in a different country if they cannot be legal residents? Is it because their own country is SO bad, that just giving their child the opportunity to be an American Citizen is worth any punishment?
What would the solution be? Should we fix the other countries so it’s not worth coming to the United States to have a child?
Or, should we destroy the US economy so that we are worse than the other countries? That seems to be the thoughts of those who would allow the US to default on its debt.
So, I see the logic and reasoning of those who want the US to default on the debt. It’s to get rid of all those illegals!
Keep Up the Good Fight!
July 5th, 2011
12:10 pm
Personally, I go for bratwurst on a bun over hotdogs anyday! And in some states that is the standard!
And no insult directed at USinUK, but last time I was in London and Bournemouth, I found the “bangers” to be mild as a generic hotdog.
Oldtimer
July 5th, 2011
12:11 pm
Do not give able-bodied US citizens unemployment benefits during planting and harvest seasons. Provide them with job applications for vacant agricultural positions. Provide them with gas money or transportation to jobsites – even provide small per diem subsistence if necessary until first pay check. No one is too good for farm work. I did it. It is honest work.
Paul
July 5th, 2011
12:11 pm
Bosch
With a few hits from Brooks and Will, maybe a bit of ‘what have we done?” will hit the Republican Party.
Naw, they’ll just be branded as RINOs.
Ever studied the stages of moral development? How it starts out, at the very bottom level, with everything black/white, yes/no, within the lines/out of the lines? I think that stage has been relabeled “Republican thought, 2011.”
USinUK
July 5th, 2011
12:11 pm
dave – or maybe conservatives have skewed so ridiculously far to the right that anyone to the left of them looks like a socialist
Left wing management
July 5th, 2011
12:13 pm
Dave R.: “David Brooks may be a liberal’s idea of a conservative, but he’s not conservative.”
What I figured.
So, again, what’s a ‘conservative’?
Is Ronald Reagan a conservative? Sounds like he might have been an amnesty-loving, starry-eyed pinko to me.
Joe Mama
July 5th, 2011
12:13 pm
Dave — “With names like that Lord knows WHAT they could have done to “sausage rolls”.
It may be a haul for you, but on the Marietta Square, there is an Australian Bakery that serves sausage rolls (no idea if they are like the British version), but what my wife and I go there for are the MEAT PIES. They’re a bit like minced/ground meat Pop-Tarts,with a soft bread crust. Some have mushrooms, some have onions, some have a lot of black pepper, but they’re all quite tasty. And they make a pork pie that I understand is very much in the British style. When we go, we get a few extra beef pies and stick them in the freezer. Three minutes in the microwave and you have a hot, tasty lunch.
Well worth a stop IMO if you happen to be in the area.
Dave R.
July 5th, 2011
12:14 pm
Somebody needs to give up their blog name after that 12:10 post . . .
Just sayin’ !
Dusty
July 5th, 2011
12:14 pm
DebbieDoRight 11:47
Don’t apologize! I love it when you comment on what I post. You always prove my point.. And you did it again. You are one of the most typical of liberal bloggers but more entertaining and straight from outer space. Always fun, dear one. Always.
Logical Dude
July 5th, 2011
12:15 pm
Meat pies
Bangers & Mash
Sausage Rolls
okay, now I”m hungry! lunch time!
Dave R.
July 5th, 2011
12:15 pm
“dave – or maybe conservatives have skewed so ridiculously far to the right that anyone to the left of them looks like a socialist”
Possibly so, USinUK.
Joe The Plumber too.
July 5th, 2011
12:15 pm
amvet, my favorite dimwit, sorry to take so long to get back to you, I was out working to recharge the ebt cards for your offsprings offspring. Exactly, whom am I a racist about, black folks, nope, white people, nope, asians, don’t think so, hispanics, I think not as my oldest two sons are of hispanic decent. Someone needs to explain to you that dimocraps are not a race, they are just the biggest thorn in my bag of bigotry. Followed closely by illegal aliens of all colors. Perhaps if you looked up the meaning of certain words you wouldn’t come across most of the time as a complete fool.
SKH
July 5th, 2011
12:16 pm
“Yeah, cause it’s so much more credible to compare my accusation of plagarism to a woman accusing a dude of raping her.”
Sometimes exaggeration makes a point more strongly. The problem is accusing people falsely – try doing that in court about any criminal offense and see what happens if you get caught. Why is it okay in a blog but not in court? Is it okay for people to come over to your house and dump drinks and food on your furniture and carpet? No. But it is apparently okay for everyone to do that in a movie theatre. Why? The only explanation I can come up with is double standards.
I apologize if I offended you by possibly implying you were a rapist; I was not at all.
Jay
July 5th, 2011
12:16 pm
APS cheating sheets upstairs
Logical Dude
July 5th, 2011
12:17 pm
Dave R. Somebody needs to give up their blog name after that 12:10 post . . .
LOL. I did toss in the caveat that “I think wayyy too much”
Sometimes my mind goes into other places and makes odd connections.
It helps sometimes, but sometimes I get connections like my 12:10 post. Not that it’s true, but it sure is fun to run down some of the alleys my brain goes.
Dave R.
July 5th, 2011
12:18 pm
“Is Ronald Reagan a conservative?”
Largely, yes. But he was also a realist when it came to what could be passed by Congress. However, very few politicians retain their core principles once elected.
Paulo977
July 5th, 2011
12:20 pm
Logical Dude
July 5th, 2011
12:15 pm
Meat pies
Bangers & Mash
Sausage Rolls
And Yorkshire Pudding!!!
Adam
July 5th, 2011
12:20 pm
Bosch: Yeah I found the “movement” comment funny too.
Also, gotta love how quickly he is disowned. I mean, most conservatives do NOT support the medicare portion of the Ryan plan, but if you say anything bad about the plan you are EXCOMMUNICATED. This disowning of David Brooks is more of the same.
Tundra Dude
July 5th, 2011
12:21 pm
The answer to this dilemma will come not in piecemeal state legislation, but in a federal law that simultaneously tightens laws against hiring of illegal labor while offering those already here a path to citizenship. Anything else is fruitless.
I think you’re right on.
Problem is, as long as it’s “fruitful” for politicians to be perceived as being tough on Illegals, most proposed solutions will be fruitless, imo.
ps: It’s nonsense to suggest they go back and apply legally. A Tucson attorney sez they’re still processing applications from the 1990’s!
Left wing management
July 5th, 2011
12:22 pm
USin: “dave – or maybe conservatives have skewed so ridiculously far to the right that anyone to the left of them looks like a socialist”
Yep.
The irony here is that American conservativism, which is based on a certain principled moderation, in perceived opposition to the excesses of the French enlightenment, is now a movement of pure radicalism. Everything it has ever fought, it now embodies in even more radical form. Just take “judicial activism” as one example.
You know William F. Buckley tried to blackball the Koch brothers for a reason. But tragically he failed. Anybody on this board going under the rubric ‘conservative’ ever even heard of William F. Buckley?
Mr Right
July 5th, 2011
12:23 pm
Joe Mama—- If you are too stupid to recognize that illegal immigration and our national debt are two different topics, then I am afraid I cannot help you.
Yall libs are saying we can’t afford the money to secure our borders so it would there is some connection! Sorry if you are SOOOO— SMART that you can’t see it !
Joe Mama
July 5th, 2011
12:24 pm
LWM — “Anybody on this board going under the rubric ‘conservative’ ever even heard of William F. Buckley?”
Yes. I subscribed to his “National Review” many years ago.
Darwin
July 5th, 2011
12:26 pm
Excellent article Jay. You hit the nail on the head. Of course, you won’t change the right wing thought process here – which is denial. What is great is the higher food prices that will result. Then the righties will blame Obama.
Joe Mama
July 5th, 2011
12:26 pm
Mr Right — “Yall libs are saying we can’t afford the money to secure our borders so it would there is some connection!”
And yet I said *nothing* about it, yet you made it your primary criticism. Once again, you utterly fail to engage on what’s being discussed, and instead make crap up and pretend that someone else (in this case, me) actually said it.
Is it at all possible for you to be honest?
“Sorry if you are SOOOO— SMART that you can’t see it !”
Did you actually have any substantive criticism of the suggestion I posted, or are you just going to pitch a fit as usual?
Left wing management
July 5th, 2011
12:26 pm
Dave R.: “Largely, yes. But he was also a realist when it came to what could be passed by Congress.”
That’s a fair enough assessment of things.
However, very few politicians retain their core principles once elected.
Tell me about it, brother.
Hope and change, anyone?
Schrodinger's cat
July 5th, 2011
12:30 pm
who;s winning today?
DebbieDoRight
July 5th, 2011
12:33 pm
OMG, maybe SKH is really Interplanet Janet!!
ROTFLMAO!!!
Mr Right
July 5th, 2011
12:34 pm
Once again, you utterly fail to engage on what’s being discussed, and instead make crap up and pretend that someone else (in this case, me) actually said it.
Sorry Joe Mama, You know since I’m so stupid I do those things!
Joe Mama
July 5th, 2011
12:39 pm
Mr Right — “Sorry Joe Mama, You know since I’m so stupid I do those things!”
Well, that certainly would explain it.
Look, I had a suggestion that I thought would *eliminate* the reason for illegals to come here and which would encourage those illegals who were already here to split ASAP. Did you have a substantive criticism of that idea or not?
Did you even READ it?
SKH
July 5th, 2011
12:42 pm
“What’s a “conservative” ?”
That is a very good question. Terms really need to be defined if they are to have any real meaning. Though I would be considered one, I personally dislike the word, because some of the positions taken by “conservatives” have not been conservative at all. I’m thinking, for instance, of the overly pro-business positions of conservatives that have not (within reason) really conserved the environment (I’m not talking about saving a brown mouse, but polluting the environment and causing people to get cancer as a result). The fact is, liberals are not always wrong and conservatives are not always right (flip that around if you are a liberal).
Dusty
July 5th, 2011
12:44 pm
Logical Dude 12:10
You take taken an illogical route from illegal immigrants with legal children to somehow default on the US debt. That is twisted logic a snake couldn’t follow.
We can pretty much guess at why illegals come here. Mostly economic reasons. There is some reason to believe that they think their legal children will anchor them here. Not so.
There is little reason to believe that the economy of the USA depends on illegal labor. I do not believe that agriculture will stop and food plants close without them. That is pure conjecture expounded by activists and journalists needing bloggers.
NO, we do not “rebuild or remake” Mexico, Guatamala, etc. That is their job. We will only if they have weapons of mass destruction or practice genocide.
Now, what was it you wanted illegal immigrants to do? Uphold/lift the debt limit? I believe they could help by going to their legal country. They can work on Mexico or wherever. We, legal US citizens will work on the debt limit There’s no doubt about THAT..
. .
Dusty
July 5th, 2011
12:50 pm
Awwww LOgical dude has already said he isn’t logical. Off to the new “sheet”. About time…
Aquagirl
July 5th, 2011
12:52 pm
Obama is spineless and doesn’t love America!
BOB FROM ACCOUNT TEMPS
July 5th, 2011
12:55 pm
ayan rant – acceptance of all who are willing to work and to adapt to the rudiments of our culture. there in lies the rub. they do not want to be part of the american culture and demand extra rights to boot.
SwedeAtlanta
July 5th, 2011
12:59 pm
While progress continues in automating many of the tasks associated with agriculture including improving crop varieties to be more appropriate for machine harvesting, the reality is there will always be a certain amount of agricultural related work that will need to be done by hand.
For those that underestimate the impact a complete shutdown of illegal agricultural workers would have on supply and price, think again. It won’t be a “little more” for a pound of tomatoes, etc. it will be a significant rise.
Why? Because the vast majority of Americans have no interest in doing the back-breaking work.Many Americans are not physically capable of doing the work (given obesity rates) and would not do the work in the hot summer sun for 10 hours a day.
It would take a huge rise in wages to lure some Americans to man the fields. I for one wouldn’t do that back-breaking work for anything less than $18-20 an hour and then only if the job came with benefits.
The prescription would likely mean a doubling in the price of domestic agricultural products that are dependent on manual labor. That will either be highly inflationary or will drive domestic producers out of the market and more of our produce, etc. would come from other countries where we have less oversight on the use of pesticides, etc.
SKH
July 5th, 2011
1:04 pm
“what they [conservatives] fail to understand is that big business only cares about profit.”
I would be considered conservative by most anyone, but I don’t fail to realize that. The apostle Paul wrote that the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. That is either true or it’s not. I believe it is and have had that belief confirmed by personal experience. I haven’t thought about this a lot and don’t know what the solution is. But I also know that government does a pretty bad job at doing most anything (though I will grant it has done some things well). I think you’d have to be willfully ignorant of the facts to think otherwise. So I guess the question is how can government wisely and effectively temper the excesses of greed?
DebbieDoRight
July 5th, 2011
1:07 pm
APS: The evidence suggests that its the Democrats who want all the people to be uneducated tools. If you don’t believe that than look at the APS news on the homepage of the AJC today. The big education teacher’s unions and the Democrats who run school boards in most of the big cities couldn’t give 2 flips about whether or not the kids are being educated.
Yes, yes I know — it’s all the evil Teacher’s Union fault for wanting to be paid what they’re worth!! It’s all the evil teacher’s union’s fault for cutting salaries and education budgets. It’s all the Evil teachers’ union fault for trying to put “creative design” on stickers in Cobb county schools. It’s all the Evil Teacher’s Union’s fault for trying to rewrite history, by adding disclaimer’s to science books, and by taking out the arts, humanities and physical education in the budget.
Darn those EVIL TEACHER’S UNIONS!!!!! Darn them to HELL!!!
Logical Dude
July 5th, 2011
1:08 pm
Dusty: Now, what was it you wanted illegal immigrants to do? Uphold/lift the debt limit?
Well, if we legalize ‘em all, then they’d be sucked into the taxpayer system, so they’d likely HELP the debt limit by paying their own insurance, taxes, etc, etc, etc.
It’s a lot cheaper than rounding ‘em all up and sending ‘em all back.
Bosch
July 5th, 2011
1:08 pm
“Ever studied the stages of moral development?”
Paul,
Isn’t that Abraham Maslow among others? I liked his little pyriamid thing. You see lots here that seem to never get past the whole “safety” level.
Tundra Dude
July 5th, 2011
1:24 pm
SwedeAtlanta@12:59 wrote, in part:
For those that underestimate the impact a complete shutdown of illegal agricultural workers would have on supply and price, think again.
—————-
The good news is, most Georgia crops are non-essential. No one’s ever been diagnosed with a deficiency of onions, peanuts, pecans, peanuts,or corn. Cotton’s not as critical as in the past.
The prescription would likely mean a doubling in the price of domestic agricultural products that are dependent on manual labor
———————
Not even close. The pickers typically earn a few % of the retail price of crops. I bought one cuke yesterday for 69 cents. The picker (in NC) get about 3 cents for a half-pound cuke. Tomato pickers in So. Florida get a whopping 2 cents per pound. (maybe more for the vine-ripened?) Doubling their wages would only add pennies to the retail price, it seems.
DwayneL
July 5th, 2011
1:32 pm
The only thing that matters is that these people are illegal criminals that broke our country’s laws to get here and many of them break more laws when here. They need to be deported immediately! The framers will find people or new ways to get their crops to market.
SwedeAtlanta
July 5th, 2011
1:35 pm
Tundra Dude
I don’t disagree that many of Georgia’s crops are non-essential. The broader issue is if we as a country do not recognize that a substantial amount of the U.S. domestic produce is in one form or another dependent on workers that are willing to do the back-breaking work. I for one would prefer a program that permitted them to come her legally and a system that enabled us to track them and ensure that when the season was over they returned to their home country.
As for doubling of cost….we aren’t talking about the picker getting 3 cents for a cuke. We are talking about Americans demanding $20+ per hour plus benefits to do the work. So how many cucumbers does that picker pick today in an hour? If he picks 100 he gets $3.00 according to your statistics. I am suggesting the wages will be 6-7 times that if we cut off a supply of pickers.
I do not see any scenario under which you are going to get any substantial number of Americans to go do this work without it being financially worth their while and even then most Americans don’t want to or will not do that kind of work.
reusha2000
July 5th, 2011
1:42 pm
Jay, You miss, your Mexico Legal Citizens-USA Illegal Aliens?
Farmers receive subsidies from the government and want to continue receiving ILLEGAL taxpayer funded subsidies, through education, healthcare, foodstamps, and now trying to do the dream act again!!
You invite them all to “your House”!! The farmers owe the taxpayers and citizens, for the deaths of loved ones by ILLEGAL Aliens!!
The Crop Picking is not your worry, stay out of it!!
The farmers will adjust without Illegal Aliens!!
Go do the work you said you needed so bad
July 5th, 2011
1:49 pm
Everyone got what they wanted. They are gone so why are you people still on here bad mouthing them? I have read for years that you people needed the jobs, so there they are. You people obviously didn’t need a job that bad or you wouldn’t be on here still complaining. I know as well as anybody that the real reason you don’t like people from other countries has nothing to do with their citezenship status. You don’t like them because they don’t eat like you, look like you, or talk like you. They do not belong here illegally. They broke a law. They do need to be punished just like anyone else. But what everyone is commenting on has nothing to do with laws. You don’t like them so you run them off. Why not make them pay for their crimes here in the U.S.? If an American goes to Mexico or any other country, does he not get punished and sentenced there in that country? What is sending them back teaching them? They have money saved up and thats all they need to get back here. Teach them a lesson. Scaring them out of a state is not going to work. They will just move. Otherwise, quit hiding behind your computer and do something about it instead of filling up these comment boards. Come on there are 357 comments about nothing but hating hispanics. America is supposedly about pitching in and standing together. Well if those crops need to be picked, Why not pick them? Show the hispanics you don’t need them.
SKH
July 5th, 2011
1:59 pm
“The evidence suggests that its the Democrats who want all the people to be uneducated tools.”
I think you are greatly overshooting the mark here. Education is something I know and have thought about a bit. First, let me suggest that the biggest problem with the educational system is NOT the system (though that is deeply flawed), but poor parenting. Parents don’t do a good job of teaching their kids how to behave and instilling values and aspirations in them. Instead, they sedate or babysit them with drugs, television and video games. And should a teacher ever suggest their little Johnny or Suzy has misbehaved, a lawsuit is impending.
As for the system itself, I believe this is yet another instance of government (not necessarily Democrats) doing something badly. For one thing, it apportions far too much of its budget to physical plants (bright, shiny new school buildings) rather than to the people without whom education wouldn’t be possible: the teachers. You could almost teach kids in a barn with more good, well-paid teachers with much smaller class sizes and get far better results. Does anyone aside from a teacher or mother know how insane it is to stuff 30-35 kids in a classroom and expect a teacher to be effective teaching them five to six times a day? I’m certified to teach at the secondary level. Am I doing that? No! I make twice or three times what a teacher makes developing software. I love teaching, but it doesn’t love me.
For another thing, it now micromanages everything a teacher must do. Can you imagine Socrates following an extensive state-mandated curriculum? I think great teaching comes from a teacher’s individual expression of his or her desire or passion to turn a light bulb on in someone else’s head. It’s kind of a talent – either you have it or you don’t. We can reasonably expect teacher to cover essential material without making them slaves to some form of ritualized transference of knowledge.
For a third thing, sitting at a desk for 7 hours is NOT conducive to learning. Sure, some naturally academic types will do well in that setting (and perhaps always have), but most probably learn best by seeing (or reading) and doing – by moving around and physically engaging the subject matter.
For a last thing, it often forces most students through high school on a largely academic track. Let’s face it, not everyone is born to be a physicist or doctor. There’s is nothing wrong with that – and it doesn’t necessarily relate to intelligence. There should be a universal academic and technical track for students to pursue in high school (like there is in England). Why make a boy with a love of cars and an aptitude for troubleshooting sit in a desk for 4 years?
HEAR YE ALL LIBS
July 5th, 2011
2:03 pm
Question for you Libs. Why oh why, on Gods green earth would you want to work so hard for what you have, only to have the govt take MORE of it away to give to people that aren’t worth a damn? And… those people feel they are entitled to your money?
Then lastly…. who the hell gives you the right to decide for ME, what’s the best use of MY money? Just curious as to how that brain thinks so illogically.
SKH
July 5th, 2011
2:06 pm
“The broader issue is if we as a country do not recognize that a substantial amount of the U.S. domestic produce is in one form or another dependent on workers that are willing to do the back-breaking work. ”
How about this for a solution: establish a voluntary program for inmates at minimum security prisons to work at various low paying jobs “no one will take” (moving them around to different jobs to broaden their work experience) and place most of the money they earn aside in escrow for them. That way, when they get out, they will have 1) real work experience 2) money to get them started in a new, better life and 3) hope for a future. Has this ever been tried?
@SKH
July 5th, 2011
2:10 pm
Yes… it’s been tried. Sort of. People on parole were given the jobs and paid the same rate. They were “less than productive” at best. Many of the migrant workers are used to the very hot and punishing labor that they do day in and day out, therefore they were able to go at it, full speed all day long. The paroled workers started later, took more breaks, worked slower and quit earlier.
They also complained more.
SwedeAtlanta
July 5th, 2011
2:15 pm
Ref Hear Ye All Libs
I don’t know where you get the idea that liberals want the government to take more of our money and give it to others. I don’t know of a progresssive or liberal that is so cavailer about their money. The philosophical difference between many conservatives and liberals/progressives is that convservaties want to very strictly limit what government does beliving that the private sector and/or charity can do the other things. Liberals and proressives believe that there is a role for government beyond the military.
Do you consider yourself a spiritual person? Maybe even a Christian? Who are you to place a value on “people who aren’t worth a damn”. If you are a Christian that statement shows how little you understand your own faith.
And who gives you the right to decide for me what is the best use for my money? I for one want the military budget cut by 70% and spend that money here at home. But I can’t make that decision because I live in a society that has made a value decision that military spending is important. I can try to influence the discussion and vote for candidates that support my values but I have to accept that others will indeed influence and/or decide how my money is spent. That is the sacrifice I make for living in a civilized society. The only way to avoid that is to find an island and be a world unto yourself.
SKH
July 5th, 2011
2:21 pm
“Yes… it’s been tried. Sort of. ”
Then I would guess there is a problem in the implementation of the idea. To my thinking, it’s all about attitude. I wasn’t talking about paroles, first of all. I was thinking about people (such as those in prison) who might be eager for such an opportunity. Second of all, maybe there needs to be some kind of football camp or boot camp instruction (teaching not drills) to help these people get a better attitude about things – someone to shout at them, make them angry and perhaps think like they never have before. A good many of these people may have been failed by their parents in one way or another, and really don’t (from an experiential point of view) know their right hand from their left. Lastly, maybe allowing convicts to lounge around watching television, lifting weights and fighting each other is not conducive to reform. So maybe that has to change first.
poison pen
July 5th, 2011
2:24 pm
Doggone/GA
“The illegals have a child here and then use that SS# to scam the Govt. this is only one way”
” If that child is born on US soil, then you are talking about a US Citizen.”
Doggone, Read the piece that I posted to and you will see what I said. Everybody knows that their child is a US citizen, they use the childs SS # to get free aid, while the parents are illegals.
You always ask for facts so I presented them to you.
poison pen
July 5th, 2011
2:27 pm
Bosch
” No poison it doesn’t, because that wasn’t an absolute sweeping genrealization about a group of people or a false statement. There are two neighborhoods in my town where most of the inhabitants (I’d say about 90%) have up and left. If you don’t believe me, I simply do not care.”
Bosch, What town & what neighborhood? Maybe someone else on this site lives there and they can coorborate your claim.
poison pen
July 5th, 2011
2:35 pm
Well it looks like we have another OJ jury, Casey Anthony gets away with MURDER.
GT
July 5th, 2011
2:38 pm
The nature of this country and particularly the south is to not stay in lock step, and it was only a matter of time before even the hard header would break from the pack. I watch the New Hampshire Republican debate a few weeks ago. I have never seen such unity from normally mean selfish people. In our legislatures any question asked about Democrats was answered in the negative by the Republicans. “We need to breath to live”, no it’s a socialistic lie.
The farmers will be the first to break the blockade of common sense, watch the public thank the government and ask for more when food prices shoot above present conditions. There is really such a small few that lead this stupidity, but it was so easy to be “in” before the wheels fell off, no one protested in fear they would be considered un-American or un Christian. Maybe a few can survive to rule the masses, Hitler did it. Maybe this is just a test to see how far the powerful and dumb can push the envelope.
SKH
July 5th, 2011
2:40 pm
“The philosophical difference between many conservatives and liberals/progressives is that convservaties want to very strictly limit what government does beliving that the private sector and/or charity can do the other things. Liberals and proressives believe that there is a role for government beyond the military.”
I’m not sure I would state it that simply, but for me the problem I have with government doing things is that it does them so poorly. And I think where liberals go wrong is that they do not combine compassion with wisdom. For example, I personally feel compassion for homeless people. But I know as a matter of fact that many of the are alcoholics and don’t really want to change all that much. So, when I drive by them at an intersection asking for money, I either bring them to a restaurant and buy them a meal or hand out breakfast bars with a lot of nutrition. I do NOT give them money – because by doing so I am enabling them rather than helping them.
I find this to be SO characteristic of government help. Take the tenament buildings built for minorities in the inner cities for example. If instead of building for them places they could inhabit temporarily, they had given them materials, supervisors and paid construction workers to help them build their own dwellings they would then own, I am sure the areas in which they were built would not have devolved into slums. What perhaps was lacking was not a desire to help, but an understanding of how things really work in life. People who are invested in something are people who care.
LOL
July 5th, 2011
2:50 pm
Going after the businesses that hire illegals is only one part of shutting down the border. We still have parts of the United States of America where our government has erected wraning signs about armed illegals and drug runners being in the area. We need to do whatever it takes to secure the border from these types of individuals. I hear all of you about PAYING for it, and yes we do need to pay for it, but we can shift funds from the cowboy poets and NPR and all of the subsidies we currently allow, hell we can probably shift some defense funds if we get rid of a few overseas locations.
SKH
July 5th, 2011
2:52 pm
“I have never seen such unity from normally mean selfish people.”
All people, Republicans and Democrats alike, can be and often are selfish by nature. How much more are typical politicians that way! If you don’t realize that, you haven’t lived long or you haven’t been very observant. Do you really think people driven mostly by ambition are good hearted and not selfish? Consider JFK, an American icon – often quoted and revered. Do you know what he was really like? Read a biography sometime. He was NOT a good man.
NJ
July 5th, 2011
2:54 pm
As I said, Republicans should be renamed the Neurotic Party. Neurosis is a mental condition in which you do the same thing over and over again and expect different results every time.
Every state that has passed such legislation has seen a massive economic hit. Arizona has lost almost a quarter of a billion dollars…not in agriculture, but in tourism.
The net effects all over the Southwest where such legislation was put in effect has been catastrophic to their economies, but rather good for Mexico.
Farmers from Colorado,Arizona, and other states bordering or near Mexico have simply resorted to going INTO Mexico for the growing season, renting land, hiring local workers, and producing their crops, which are then imported under NAFTA, into the United States. The expense for additional costs are passed onto the customers. The worse elements of NAFTA was that NAFTA DID NOT allow Mexicans or Canadians to move to America for work, and Americans to do the same.
The reason that the European Union is kicking our asses economically is that they in fact ALLOW members of any member state to move into any OTHER member state. Therefore if Germany needs low wage workers, it can advertise in the poorer Balkan Nations and hire Serbs, Croats, Romanians, etc. As long as they are member states, you can move from one to the other for work. This Flexibility has now made the EU, the wealthiest region on the planet, displacing the United States over the last ten years. Even the hourly productivity of European workers often surpasses that of US workers in some of the most heavily unionized countries in the world.
No state has found a workable alternative to the so called “illegal” immigrants. More legal “migrant workers” work in the fields than illegals.
Simply put, when Republicans make these cockamamie assertions, there is little proof that they are actually effective, or have ever BEEN effective.
Tax cuts for example. We now have 98 years worth of data regarding the Federal Income Tax. The story to date is that cutting income taxes has NEVER resulted in higher investment in business, has barely created new jobs, and has rarely resulted in the creation of new businesses or upgrading of new plant equipment. The average estimate is that for every dollar give in tax cuts to the top two percent of Americans, 4 percent goes towards actual creation of jobs, new businesses and upgrading existing ones.
otherhalf
July 5th, 2011
2:55 pm
I am married to and illegal immigrant have been since 2006 and have done every piece of paper work and paid 1000s of dollars to us goverment officials to try and get him legal documentation. We have a 12 year old daughter that worries about her dad daily not knowing what going to happen next. If you dont know any illegals how can u know why they are here, they don’t come looking for the american dream they come to feed their families. They are not legal so they don’t draw welfare, not possible and after they get legal until they become citizen they still cant get any assistance including social security even though they pay in. Their checks are taxed just like yours and mine and that money just sets in a Goverment bank somewhere. They are not here to still from you they don’t want your charity. The system needs to be fixed, but you just can’t round them up, some are married to citizen and children born citizen which means at sometime that child can apply for their parent to get papers but with it like it is now it is almost impossible. I have tried and have many other friends that have tried to legalize their spouse and even their children and the goverment wouldn’t grant the papers. The way the laws are set up for immigration aren’t working either way, it needs a change but a humane and fair one.
DawgDad
July 5th, 2011
2:58 pm
What should be done with these people is a dilemma? Are you serious? Simple, simple answer – stop the incentives for them to come here and stay here illegally. Enforce laws against employers of illegal labor. Over time, lots of illegals will leave. Until these basic steps are accomplished don’t even bother to talk about the next steps.
This is all about the business and politics of labor racketeering. Stop it. It’s illegal, and it’s inhumane.
GT
July 5th, 2011
3:02 pm
The elephant in the room is we cannot organize anything well in America. Local government is corrupt at best, unethical and self-serving. A huge amount of the American economy is a Ponzi scheme with Los Vegas features. Charities take most for themselves and write it all off as tax deductable so the rich don’t have to pay taxes. Education is a foreign concept, yet we pay like we were delivered a product. The less education we get the more superstition becomes the catalyst that runs the masses over the cliff. The only hope we have is this systemic disease is passed on to our enemies as they enjoy the booty of freedom.
DawgDad
July 5th, 2011
3:07 pm
“I don’t know where you get the idea that liberals want the government to take more of our money and give it to others. I don’t know of a progresssive or liberal that is so cavailer about their money. ”
Of course they aren’t. They want the government to tax and spend OTHER PEOPLE’S money for their pet programs, otherwise they wouldn’t be looking to government to begin with, and very often the loudest proponents are profiting very nicely off the programs, directly or indirectly.
WOODSTOCK MIKE
July 5th, 2011
3:13 pm
Talk about hypocrisy, Democrats are in essence okay with paying illegal workers wages which are set at levels well below what they should be. In other words, because these are Mexicans the Democrats are just fine with paying them a wage that is exploiting the person because of their nationality and the fact they are illegal and willing to do work nobody wants to do.
Joe
July 5th, 2011
3:16 pm
It’s certainly laughable that you can sit in an office in Atlanta and spew non facts. Where exactly are these vegetable farms that are lying out rotting? I actually work in the agriculture community and have traveled all over the state and haven’t seen any. You could claim that some fields have not produced for drought related reasons but not because of lack of help. That’s simply false. Farmers are of course, one of the biggest welfare recipients so they will scream about pretty much anything for more government assistance. Unfortunately its people such as you along with elected officials that buy into this nonsense…. Illegals contribute absolutely nothing to Georgia except for using benefits paid for by the tax payer..
GT
July 5th, 2011
3:22 pm
Simple answer? I guess all of life has a simple answer. It is when you give the wrong simple answer that things get complicated. How do we compete against other states more less only countries when we are lazy, fat and dumb?
You will find a barter system you had no idea existed. Maybe these people got free benefits, but they gave free labor too. I seriously think they got the short end of the stick unless we are being misled by how bad government health and schools are. I think what Americans ,especially the right, is going to find out are they have lied so much they started believing it themselves. Now the crops sit in the field. You are going to find this country is worse off and ultimately you are going to have enough rope to hang the truth along with all the rest of us.
Ali
July 5th, 2011
3:29 pm
Federal law already has guest worker programs for seasonal agricultural laborers that Georgia farmers could and should have been using all along. H2-A has no caps. Another program, H2-B, for other unskilled labor has a cap of 66,000. Georgia farmers should start planning now to use it next year and to tell their illegal alien laborers to head back to their home country so they can apply to be sponsored for it.
Ali
July 5th, 2011
3:35 pm
Otherhalf, what other laws should people be able to break and not pay the penalty for because they marry an American?
It’s too bad you made a bad decision to marry an illegal alien and have a child with him. Fact is, there are ways that he can legalize already, but they require he return to his home country and have you file for a waiver of inadmissibility. For your daughter to legalize him, he’d need to return to his home country anyway and face the 10-year bar to re-entry.
And by the way, your act in having a child here, knowing your husband is deportable, is just as short-sighted as those illegal aliens who choose to have children in their home countries that they can’t afford to support.
Ali
July 5th, 2011
3:38 pm
Godothework, I haven’t noticed any shortages of any produce here in Virginia. Prices don’t seem higher either. If anything, we have an abundance of produce such as locally grown peaches, strawberries, etc. Guess the only ones feeling a “shortage” are farmers in Georgia.
SwedeAtlanta
July 5th, 2011
3:42 pm
Ali, I’m not sure how the federal guest worker program will work for these low-sklled workers that migrate with the crops. My understanding is a migrant farm worker might work in several states and for several employers over a 5 month period.
Wouldn’t they have to get a separate approval for each of those employers likely to have to return to their home country in between?
I am all for a program like that that will work. I just see the migrant worker’s situation being different than someone who is coming here to say work as a housekeeper or something that is a single employer, single location for the duration of their time.
GT
July 5th, 2011
3:44 pm
The hypocrisy is letting them in the country in the first place then using them for political target practice. And how do you lay that at the feet of the liberals. Humane is the liberty of the person to pick his or her fate. They have a choice to be here. Nope this is one of those power plays like Newt throwing out a half a million dollar bracelet to get what his dissipated reality could not. You lose drug wars, you lose regular wars, the price of oil goes sky high, and now in one fatal lapse because of desperation you have pleased the masses with an execution of its strongest economic machine, agriculture. We are out of pavement.
WOODSTOCK MIKE
July 5th, 2011
3:45 pm
@GT
Sounds like you hate America, why not try moving to Europe and see how things are?
WOODSTOCK MIKE
July 5th, 2011
3:47 pm
@GT
America’s strongest economic machine is called innovation, there isn’t another country even close, you need to wake up and realize where you live. For example, China wishes they could actually invent something, they are good for one thing, assembly lines because they abuse their workers like you couldn’t imagine…
floridaman
July 5th, 2011
3:56 pm
The only way I see to solve this problem is to legalize those immigrants who have been here undocumented for a number of years WITHOUT a path to citizenship. People who endure the burdens of living “under the shadows” are not people willing to leave this country regardless of how tough laws can get. Those who are here with their family can stay together, those who are here alone cannot petition for anyone. Give them a Federal ID form, so they can get a drivers license and get their own health insurance. Give them a travel parole so they can visit their family when they can. Enforce tax laws to keep update with Uncle Sam. One felony charge or 3 misdemeanors ends their right to be in the program. Help american farmers to keep their business here. Whoever is not willing to do the type of work that undocumented immigrants do should not be in the way of all those who need that kind of manpower.
oldguy
July 5th, 2011
4:02 pm
Ok,
I am NOT going to read all these posts sooooo:
Jay,
as usual Farmers DO NOT depend on Illegal immigrant labor, they depend on farm labor, it could be from Outer Mongolia as far as they care!! Soooo GUEST WORKER PROGRAM can you say the Jay??
Not illegal GUEST WORKER
Otherhalf has inadvertly made one of my points, her husband can here to work to support his family, not to get out of Mexico or become an American!!
Need proof??
Just look at the vids from the recent USA-Mexico Football match. The US booed, Mexico cheered, the ceremony in Spanish THE MATCH HERE!! Think these people want to be Americans???? Yeah right!!! THey are here for the money, their loyality remains in Mexico!!!!!!
GUEST WORKER DO IT!!!!!
otherhalf: you have been married since 2006 and you have a 12 year old daughter??? and they rag on us rednecks!!
GT
July 5th, 2011
4:04 pm
I love America. Most of America does not think the way we do down south or they do in Arizona. You want to talk innovation check out how this state treats solar power compared to, say, North Carolina. Duke Power and that state has an edict to be using 30% green energy by the end of the decade. They give long term contracts, up to 20 years, from Duke Power to the solar energy makers. Georgia Power won’t go longer than one year in most cases. Even Arizona comes out of the cave when it comes to self sufficient energy.
Cris
July 5th, 2011
4:09 pm
I laugh at the ignorance most people have in regards to immigrants. As a legal immigrant, I am here to tell you that many of the immigrants (both legal and illegal) have college degrees and often speak three languages. They often tend to work in construction or clean houses because these are the only jobs available to them. For those who have commented on how easy it is to obtain a visa and come to this country legally I have two questions:
Do you have $50K in a bank account which you can show the US Government?
Do you have a specialized degree (Chemical Engineer, Brain Surgeon) or is a company willing to pay around $2000 a month to bring you to this country?
If you answered no to the first question you could not even get a tourist visa to this country and if you answered no to the second you could not get a work visa. For those who are so quick to deport, you should be glad you were born in this country.
oldguy
July 5th, 2011
4:14 pm
Totally off the point:
NOT GUILTY!!!!!
You have got to be kidding!!! I knew Florida was full of senile people but thiS???
Can you say O J Jury!!
What do they think, The 2 year old committed suicide and then wrapped herself up in a traskbag and threw her own body in the swamp??!!
What DOLTS!!!
anyone need a better reason to junk the 12 dolt citizen Jury and go to the German professional jurist system.
Another murderer on the street!!! Wonder if she is planning to enter and “Hot Body” contests tonight!!
oldguy
July 5th, 2011
4:18 pm
really Cris???
Care to check the degree status at the non-fence in Texas!!
1 in 100,000 ? 1 in 1,000,000 more like it!
oldguy
July 5th, 2011
4:29 pm
Ah Jay,
you never fail to inspire me!!!
your UP is DOWN approach to problem solving never wavers!!
This ,of course, is the “Reverse Little Dutchboy” way;
Instead of “sticking your finger into the dike to stop the flow of the North Sea” into your country your solution is it forget the hole, go get a teacup and try to bale out the country a cup at a time.
Can you say “Gurgle….Gurgle”??
Cris
July 5th, 2011
4:31 pm
Immigrants don’t just cross the border – they also come on planses via student and tourist visas and overstay. These people are refered to as “out of status” and almost 90% have a college degree. Most of the “undocumented” come accross the border and have no papers – do you know how far Georgia is from the border. Most of the people I know in the state of Georgia came her via Hartsfield and not the border.
reha
July 5th, 2011
4:36 pm
The excuses for using an illegal workforce are the same ones used to justify slavery. Look at old articles and you will see that its true. Farmers have to set their worker models based on a legal work force. Everyone business wants to pay cheap and make more profit but workers should also receive a fair wage.
killerj
July 5th, 2011
4:36 pm
“BUSTED”, I Love It, now let,s go to construction “Work Forces”.
GT
July 5th, 2011
4:39 pm
Cris you have found the nerve that pains me so. If the south had the correct facts fed to them, not some pulp fiction and then came up with this conclusion just because they are a mean lot, it wouldn’t bother me near as much as how the conclusion is arrived. It is the man that doesn’t want to believe his wife is having an affair under his roof or the parent who doesn’t want to believe his kid is on drugs kind of thing we have here. When people make up things or believe weak stories it is a sure sign they know the true but just can’t face it. Southerners want to think they are good kind and all they wrong deserve it. Every man on death row thinks he has a real reason to kill someone; it’s all those other inmates that are crazy.