Immigration bill clarifies a once-muddy debate
NOTE: This is the electronic version of today’s AJC column.
Whatever else it accomplishes, passage of House Bill 87 has brought a welcome clarity to the debate over illegal immigration in Georgia. It has cast sunlight where there used to be shadows and has forced hypocrisy out into the open.
For example, do illegal immigrants perform labor that most Georgians are unwilling or even unable to do? The once contentious question now has an answer: Yes, in many cases they do. Acres and acres of crops now rotting in the south Georgia sunshine offer mute testament to that fact that agricultural labor is hard, and that most people in Western industrialized countries don’t want to do it.
And have Georgia farmers become dependent on that illegal workforce, in many cases building their entire economic structure on the availability of cheap and undocumented labor?
Until recently, the state agriculture community had clung to the fiction that only a small and unknowable percentage of their labor was here illegally. However, as their workforce shrinks in the wake of HB 87, such denials have become impossible to sustain. The degree to which they have relied on illegal labor is now painfully clear, and will be reflected on many a bottom line.
In fact, farmers have until now enjoyed the best of both worlds. As long as lax enforcement of federal immigration law gave them access to a large, docile and for the most part invisible workforce, they could sit back and remain quiet in the politically charged debate over amnesty and other measures intended to rationalize immigration. (It didn’t hurt that keeping those workers illegal created an all-but-captive workforce that had few other options.)
Members of Georgia’s congressional delegation have long been complicit in that two-sided game. They have quietly blocked periodic attempts by the federal government to enforce immigration laws more stringently, while simultaneously railing against the presence of the very illegal immigrants they were helping to protect.
Passage of HB 87 has ended that sweet little arrangement. If the state’s agriculture industry wants continued access to that workforce, they need to become vocal advocates for some means of legalizing and protecting it. They need to publicly acknowledge that a population vilified by many as a drain on the state’s economy is in fact a necessity in much of rural Georgia, and they need to start electing public officials who are willing to make that argument in Washington and here in Atlanta.
If they have workers they want to keep, they need to fight for them. And that does not mean adopting the Utah approach of trying to “legalize” illegal immigrants at the state level, giving them permission to be in the state as long as they agree to remain in the fields picking crops and don’t have any higher ambitions. (HB 87 includes a provision calling for a study of that approach).
Such a program would be wildly unconstitutional. And perhaps just as important, we are long past the days when we condemn a population to servitude in manual labor, allowing them to do that but dream of nothing else.
By the way, everything that can be said about the political silence of Georgia agriculture industry regarding the fate of its workforce, and the price they’re paying for it, can also be said about other industries, especially restaurants, hotels and other service-related industries.
The answer to this dilemma will come not in piecemeal state legislation, but in a federal law that simultaneously tightens laws against hiring of illegal labor while offering those already here a path to citizenship. Anything else is fruitless.
– Jay Bookman
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420 comments Add your comment
SKH
July 5th, 2011
9:47 am
jconservative:
“That is what happens. Congress refuses to legislate an issue, the issue gets to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court “legislates” the issue. We call it “legislating from the bench”. We call it “activist” judges. We have been doing this since 1803.”
Well said. As to the Supreme Court’s wisdom in legislating issues, let’s ask our African-American citizens how they feel about the court’s Plessy vs. Ferguson decision in 1896 that upheld the constitutionality of segregation. Think about how much pain and suffering they endured as a people because of this decision. Now think about how this same decision was “overturned” (actually completely reversed) with the Brown vs. Board of Education decision of 1954. The very fact that the court completely reversed itself proves just how fallible it can be. 58 years of intense suffering because an unelected group of nine judges were allowed to establish the law of the land!
This same court has equated the act of disrobing in public with free speech, an absolutely inane twisting of the language of the Constitution. Had any one of these Justices tried to argue in a Debate 101 class that the founding fathers meant getting naked by the word speech, they would have been laughed out of the classroom. And this also court concluded that, as a “right of privacy,” women can abort unborn children. If such a judgement is valid, then why are people prosecuted for murder who kill the same unborn children in the belly of a pregnant mother? That is a contradiction. Why is a mother able to legally kill her unborn child when another person may not? Jconservative’s point is a very good one: if we don’t insist Congress (who we have control over) establish the laws we live by, then the Supreme Court will.
I accept that the majority opinion should prevail in this nation. If that majority wants pornography and strip bars, so be it. Let them make laws to allow that. The same with abortion. But it is simply not right to allow the nine UNELECTED very fallible human beings to decide it for us.
Doggone/GA
July 5th, 2011
9:48 am
“Paying for goods and services a foreign concept to you?”
Who do you know who DOESN’T pay for goods and services?
THE TRUTH
July 5th, 2011
9:48 am
reyes
July 5th, 2011
9:37 am
Think of all the rednecks when you are deported.
Kamchak
July 5th, 2011
9:48 am
Looks like brother AmVet has a stalker.
wigglwagon
July 5th, 2011
9:48 am
“For example, do illegal immigrants perform labor that most Georgians are unwilling or even unable to do? The once contentious question now has an answer: Yes, in many cases they do.”
I guess that is right Jay. Antonio Vargas is living proof that Illegal aliens only do jobs real Americans won’t do. Surely, real Americans would not stoop low enough to work as a journalist. Most real Americans refuse to use deceit as a way of making a living.
In just how many cases do the illegal aliens “perform labor that most Georgians are unwilling or even unable to do?” Since less than 2% of the illegal aliens work in agriculture and even less work picking and packing, just how many cases would that be? An unlimited amount of guest workers are available through an in place federal guest worker program and farmers are too greedy to pay even those modest wages. After due consideration of that fact, do you think it might be possible that a few Georgians would actually do that picking and packing if we sit back and allow those ‘wages and benefits’ to be determined by supply and demand as are most wages in this country. It has always amazed me how many Americans think farm workers should be forced to work for low wages and no benefits. It kind of reminds me of how it was in 20’s when a bunch of broke consumers was a major factor in breaking the entire US economy.
Fletch
July 5th, 2011
9:50 am
Baby Suggs – “If someone has a degree in Computer Engineering and is used to making $35/hour; why would they go out and apply for a job (in the hot sun) that pays them $10/hour?”
If that was the only option other than starvation, than I would guess they wouldn’t be to picky. However, we have more than enough “safety nets” to ensure that no one will ever have to worry about harvesting in the hot sun to survive. Probably a good thing we didn’t have many “social” programs in the 1930’s. Kind of hard to imagine this country without Hoover Dam.
AmVet
July 5th, 2011
9:50 am
Troop hater, so cough up your “proof” that Jay’s piece is not based on true unbiased facts.
Any loudmouth can make childish claims. It takes an adult to back them up. Something you never, ever do. Do you even know how to spell research?
I believe it is safe to say that you have NEVER provided ANY facts in ANY of your screeds.
To wit, you are ZERO for seven today.
THE TRUTH – FACT-FREE STYLE.
Doggone/GA
July 5th, 2011
9:55 am
“I accept that the majority opinion should prevail in this nation”
No it shouldn’t. Would you support majority rule if, for instance, the majority decided that all blue-eyed blond people should be forced to leave the country? Our laws and courts are there precisely to protect the minority from the “tyranny of the majority” – and before you say so, yes, vice versa as well.
landaddy001
July 5th, 2011
9:55 am
The sensible solution to this problem is the solution we should have been using all along, enforce the laws. Allowing business and politicians to break the laws for decades is wrong. Following the laws as written is the correct path. No amount of name calling will change that. Illegal aliens find themselves in a situation of their own choosing. It’s really sad that they also choose to put their kids into the same situation. How could anyone think that their kids would get a better life when their very present was an unlawful act? Their kids who are born here have a chance but what kind of parent intentionally will put their kid in legal limbo? How selfish and cruel! The people who over stayed their visa or crossed the border without permission, knew they were breaking the laws. Let them be punished for their actions as any other law breaker would be. Those of you who wish to call me a racist even though I have not mentioned any specific ethnic group may now do so.
Grant H.
July 5th, 2011
9:55 am
“And perhaps just as important, we are long past the days when we condemn a population to servitude in
manual labor</strike) government dependency, allowing them to do that but dream of nothing else."It is a swap off for the DNC. They choose dependency over manual labor.
Kamchak
July 5th, 2011
9:59 am
It is a swap off for the DNC. They choose dependency over manual labor.
Not intended to be a factual statement.
THE TRUTH
July 5th, 2011
9:59 am
Amvet (Not), I am going to do us both a favor, I am not going to call you a liar, I will not even tell tou to provide one ounce of proof that I have EVER been anything other than supportive when it comes to our troops, I am not even going to say how you resort to name calling when you are being outed, heck, I am even going to get off line, after all it is time for my walk, just think I will be outside walking enjoying life and you will still be the same old miserable you.
godless heathen
July 5th, 2011
10:00 am
“Who do you know who DOESN’T pay for goods and services?”
You are kidding, right? I take it you don’t get out much. Let’s take a ride down the street on this fine sunny “work day” and I’ll show you plenty of folks that are not paying for goods and services received.
Joe Mama
July 5th, 2011
10:00 am
Carlosgvv — “Telling millions of people who have seriously violated our laws we will let them become citizens makes a mockery of the law.”
Um, no. It’s not a *serious violation* of our laws at all. The Federal government treats it as a document offense; about on a level with driving without your license and registration.
I’m sure some folks would *like* for it to be a horrendous felony, but the fact of the matter is that it simply isn’t.
Joe Mama
July 5th, 2011
10:03 am
Jm — “NPR report this morning on section 8 voucher changes. Specific story about a woman whose voucher wil. Go up from $1500 to $2000 per month. And shes been on section 8 for 4 years. My reaction: say what???!!!!
“$2000 a month in Dallas (where the story was$ will buy the toniest kind of place in Atlanta, Dallas, or most other places. So taxpayers are now supposed to put up our poor in the ritz Carlton??? WTF”
$2K may buy a tony place in Dallas, but not a $2K Section 8 voucher. You can’t just walk up to a ritzy condo with a Section 8 voucher and expect to be rented a unit *unless* that condo *accepts* Section 8 vouchers.
Doggone/GA
July 5th, 2011
10:03 am
“I’ll show you plenty of folks that are not paying for goods and services received”
Not even the clothes they wear, the food they eat, and the homes they live in? Pity I can’t actually take you up on that bet. I could use the money.
Laurie
July 5th, 2011
10:04 am
Jay, I don’t think you understand the full intent of our government. While most Georgians today might be unwilling to work the jobs illegal immigrants have been doing, eventually they will not have a choice as unemployment continues to be high and entitlements such as unemployment insurance run out. This has been the plan all along. We need to make room for the new underclass being created by the mass redistribution of wealth upwards.
AmVet
July 5th, 2011
10:05 am
THE TRUTH
July 5th, 2011
9:59 am
“…one ounce of proof that I have EVER been anything other than supportive when it comes to our troops…”
THE TRUTH
July 5th, 2011
9:59 am
“Amvet (Not)…”
LIAR.
That was easy, huh, troop hater?
Are you one of those never served, never-will chickenhawks turned peacenik?
Southern Comfort
July 5th, 2011
10:06 am
As to the Supreme Court’s wisdom in legislating issues, let’s ask our African-American citizens how they feel about the court’s Plessy vs. Ferguson decision in 1896 that upheld the constitutionality of segregation. Think about how much pain and suffering they endured as a people because of this decision. Now think about how this same decision was “overturned” (actually completely reversed) with the Brown vs. Board of Education decision of 1954. The very fact that the court completely reversed itself proves just how fallible it can be. 58 years of intense suffering because an unelected group of nine judges were allowed to establish the law of the land!
Kinda off topic, but the suffering didn’t end at Brown VS BOE. The suffering merely switched forms. Plessy upheld “Separate but Equal”, but it wasn’t all suffering. Look at areas such as the Greenwood section of Topeka, KS. That area was called the “Black Wall Street” back in the early 1900’s. “Separate but Equal” did have a few pluses as Blacks had to pretty much replicate everything in society including lawyers, doctors, and bankers. Once it was done away with, much of the Black business community suffered due to lack of patrionage.
Grant H.
July 5th, 2011
10:06 am
)? WTH?
“And perhaps just as important, we are long past the days when we condemn a population to servitude in
manual laborgovernment dependency, allowing them to do that but dream of nothing else.”It is a swap off for the DNC. They choose dependency over manual labor.
Joe Mama
July 5th, 2011
10:06 am
Joe the Plumber – “joesmama and the rest of the bedwetters will fill you in.”
If you think I’ve ever played the race card or wet my bed, then man up and face me on the topic.
It’s the kind of drive-by whining you posted @ 8:49 that makes me not take you and your complaints seriously.
Jefferson
July 5th, 2011
10:06 am
People don’t realize how much help they get, but think they can do it all on their own.
AmVet
July 5th, 2011
10:08 am
Kam, it’s all good!
To quote the esteemed Hillbilly D, “I’ve flushed better than him.”
Keep Up the Good Fight!
July 5th, 2011
10:09 am
Let’s take a ride down the street on this fine sunny “work day” and I’ll show you plenty of folks that are not paying for goods and services received
godless…..here’s a suggestion. Use the video cam on your phone and video all these people you can identify from your ride. You can email it to Jay and if it is conclusive proof as you claim, I am sure Jay can post a link.
SKH
July 5th, 2011
10:10 am
“No it shouldn’t. Would you support majority rule if, for instance, the majority decided that all blue-eyed blond people should be forced to leave the country? Our laws and courts are there precisely to protect the minority from the “tyranny of the majority” – and before you say so, yes, vice versa as well.”
I don’t think you are reasoning this through correctly. If the majority decided that 1) all blue-eyed blond people (of which I am one) should leave the country and 2) elected a sufficient number of Representatives and Senators who 3) made that a Constitutional amendment, I guess I would have to leave (remember that Supreme Court justices can be impeached). Why would this not be true? The likelihood of it happening is very, very remote, but I think it is possible. But that is a different question from whether or not the majority is right. That is obviously not true. I was simply saying that if the majority wanted do legislatively authorize some of the actions the Supreme Court has on its own, then I would either have to accept that or migrate elsewhere.
godless heathen
July 5th, 2011
10:10 am
Doggone,
If one has no job and no desire to get one, how, pray tell, do they do they pay for clothing, housing, food. Sorry, I forgot drug dealing, pimping, whoring, lottery winnings, and inheritance.
Joe Mama
July 5th, 2011
10:13 am
Baby Suggs – “If someone has a degree in Computer Engineering and is used to making $35/hour; why would they go out and apply for a job (in the hot sun) that pays them $10/hour?”
It should be pointed out that harvesting jobs require folks to move around a lot, so commuting and lodging costs will take a big wet bite out of that paycheck. It’s not like you can just drive 20-30 minutes a day to get to the fields you have to work; you’re in one area for a week or two, then you move on to the next crop and the next area. Plus, harvesting is a very seasonal job — that’s why you move around a lot. You go wherever the ripe/mature crops are.
Doggone/GA
July 5th, 2011
10:14 am
“I don’t think you are reasoning this through correctly. If the majority decided that 1) all blue-eyed blond people (of which I am one) should leave the country and 2) elected a sufficient number of Representatives and Senators who 3) made that a Constitutional amendment, I guess I would have to leave (remember that Supreme Court justices can be impeached).”
You left out the most important step. See if you can figure out what it is.
Doggone/GA
July 5th, 2011
10:15 am
“If one has no job and no desire to get one, how, pray tell, do they do they pay for clothing, housing, food”
If they aren’t walkind about naked and sleeping on the bare sidewalk, they’re paying with SOMETHING. And if you REALLY think they are all prostitutes and drug dealers…here’s your chance to see the laws enforced by turning them all in. Start now.
Mickey
July 5th, 2011
10:17 am
You completely overlook the fact that we have legitimate temporary guest workers, and THAT is the program that should be expanded – not rewarding those who enter illegally with a pathway to citizenship.
There is no concrete reason to send another signal to the world that entering in violation of immigration law is a guarantee of citizenship one day. That was the absolute worst message we sent in 1986.
If it costs more for food because farmers pay more for labor, so be it. Regardless of any increase, it pales in comparison to the amount of welfare costs associated with amnesty for millions of unskilled workers whose needs are enormous. In reality, most of those farmers aren’t really farmers. They’re big business: corporate agricultural concerns.
Doggone/GA
July 5th, 2011
10:19 am
” it pales in comparison to the amount of welfare costs associated with amnesty for millions of unskilled workers whose needs are enormous.”
Please find and post a link that shows how illegal immigrants can claim welfare. I’m sure they will be VERY interested to know.
SKH
July 5th, 2011
10:19 am
“Plessy upheld “Separate but Equal”, but it wasn’t all suffering.”
True enough, but I was thinking of the institutionalized racism that resulted from the decision, and the beatings, lynchings, degradation, humiliation that was almost condoned in its wake. The decision probably made racist whites feel like they had permission to do these kind of things. I have a number of black friends, most of whom grew up in the South – one even became a Black Panther in his youth. So I have acquired some second hand understanding of what was suffered.
poison pen
July 5th, 2011
10:21 am
Bosch
poison pen,
” Well, the Rapture didn’t happen, so I’m guessing people left because they do not want to live in an “unfriendly to them” State.”
Bosch, nice try at deflecting the question, but we both know it’s BS. Try being honest once in your life, people would respect you for it.
Southern Comfort
July 5th, 2011
10:23 am
SKH
Ok… Understand what you were saying much better.
LOL
July 5th, 2011
10:24 am
This whole immigration problem has me so angry with BOTH sides. Liberals want everybody to be granted citizenship, Conservatives want them all to go home and close the border. Once again we have situation that can be handled with COMMON SENSE. Their ar way too many illegals already here to send home, and we probably can’t get all of thme to go home. So we need a guest worker program with amnesty for those workers already here. We need to build the fence on the southern border, but we also need to make it simpler to get these temporary worker permits, we need to have fewer types of permits and some should have fees attached to get one, and all of the one’s issued to those already in this country should have a fine/fee attached. These permits should allow the Federal Govn’t and States to tax these individuals. Theese permits can range from 6 months to five years. Their should be no hinderence to these people becoming US citizens through the usual channels. In order to do all of this we would probably need to close the borders and all immmigration for 6 months to 1 year just to put everything in place, but that seems a small price to pay to come to the gretest contry in the history of the world. After we get these fixes in place if you are caught sneaking into this country you are IMMEDIATELY deported and you can’t come in leagally for 1 year. If you do it again, that’s it you are barred for life. PERIOD. If you don’t return to Mexico or renew your permit; after your permit expires you get the same penalties. This is simple people, the debt limit is simple, most of the problems in this country have common sense Constitutional solutions; what we don’t have is a leader or leaders to get them done.
deegee
July 5th, 2011
10:24 am
I find it interesting that we lament low wages paid to unskilled, semi-skilled immigrant workers at the same time that we bash unions for wanting too much in the way of wages and benefits. We lament the loss of manufacturing jobs in the US and blame unions for creating the offshore explosion after years of demanding a living wage. Then we state that American workers will work the unskilled, semi-skilled jobs that immigrants hold if the employers would just pay them a living wage. Isn’t that ironic?
Southern Comfort
July 5th, 2011
10:25 am
You completely overlook the fact that we have legitimate temporary guest workers, and THAT is the program that should be expanded
My question is the same as I ask to the round’em up and deport’em crowd… Who’s gonna pay for it?
Southern Comfort
July 5th, 2011
10:26 am
deegee
Laughable too!!
Doggone/GA
July 5th, 2011
10:26 am
“Liberals want everybody to be granted citizenship”
when you start your rant with a lie, you lose a LOT of your audience.
SKH
July 5th, 2011
10:28 am
“You left out the most important step. See if you can figure out what it is.”
I no longer play guessing games as I have found they are counter productive and lead to foolish arguments rather than honest debate. If you have a valid point, make it – for my benefit and everyone else’s. I don’t HAVE to be right, you see. I say what I think is right and if someone knows better and tells me, than I am enriched.
Doggone/GA
July 5th, 2011
10:29 am
“I no longer play guessing games ”
It isn’t a GUESSING game, it’s an opportunity to educate youself about the process of amending the constitution. You left out A HUGE STEP, and I invite you to complete your edcuation and look it up.
Bosch
July 5th, 2011
10:33 am
” Would you support majority rule if, for instance, the majority decided that all blue-eyed blond people should be forced to leave the country?”
Well, I certainly would not, because I like living here and would refuse to leave.
LOL
July 5th, 2011
10:33 am
Doggone/GA – Sorry you thought it was a rant, If you would bother to read what I wrote I also mentioned that Conservatives want to send the all home. See that’s the problem; if someone dos;nt agree with your point of view it’s a rant or hatred, or hurting children, etc… I am getting so tired of all of this partisan crap.
Mr Right
July 5th, 2011
10:33 am
Not a easy answer to the problem but wouldn’t we all agree that first thing that needs to happen is securing our border ?
Doggone/GA
July 5th, 2011
10:35 am
“I am getting so tired of all of this partisan crap.”
and as a liberal *I* am tired of being accuse of things that aren’t true. And so I stopped reading your rant after the lie about all liberals. If that LIE wasn’t PARTISAN, then nothing is.
Bosch
July 5th, 2011
10:36 am
Paul, in case you drop by, did you have a happy birthday yesterday?
Doggone/GA
July 5th, 2011
10:37 am
“but wouldn’t we all agree that first thing that needs to happen is securing our border ”
No. Because it can’t be done. We have thousands and thousands and thousands of miles of border, both land and sea border and it is impossible to secure ever inch of it all.
But if you think it can be done, then how much in increased taxes are you willing to pay for it? Beause to even TRY is going to cost a HUGE amount of money.
Mr Right
July 5th, 2011
10:37 am
Who’s gonna pay for it?
I guess the same people that will pay for our $14,000,000,000,000.00 debt!
Kamchak
July 5th, 2011
10:37 am
Not a easy answer to the problem but wouldn’t we all agree that first thing that needs to happen is securing our border ?
The Great Wall of China was insufficient in securing a border.
What can?
Left wing management
July 5th, 2011
10:38 am
For example, do illegal immigrants perform labor that most Georgians are unwilling or even unable to do? The once contentious question now has an answer: Yes, in many cases they do.
Well it always had an answer, to anyone with eyes to see. It’s just that people in some quarters wanted — and will continue to want — to deny the fact or to pretend that it doesn’t matter. Lack of political courage allowed this canard to live.
LOL
July 5th, 2011
10:38 am
Mr Right – of course securing the border is the FIRST step, but try to sell that to a Liberal/Progressive. You can’t repair the damage from leak until you STOP the LEAK! But when we repair it we will hopefully make it better than it was/ is.
BADA BING
July 5th, 2011
10:38 am
Is the new immigration bill responsible for droughts, insects, floods? All of these are faced by the farmers, and result in a lost crop, just like the lack of pickers. It is a problem that can and will be overcome, you people just don’t know how inventive working people can be.
The Thin Guy
July 5th, 2011
10:39 am
Cut off welfare, food stamps, unemployment compensation, and other government handouts and you’ll see crops getting picked by Americans. It is racist to suggest that illegal aliens are better at stooping over and picking stuff than we native Americans. What we need is motivation. And as long as the government is taking care of us there is no motivation. Which would you rather do? Sit on your rear blogging in your air conditioned digs supported by you government check or go out and work for a living.
Mr Right
July 5th, 2011
10:40 am
Beause to even TRY is going to cost a HUGE amount of money.
Wow, so just give up?
Doggone/GA
July 5th, 2011
10:40 am
“You can’t repair the damage from leak until you STOP the LEAK!”
Beavers do it all the time to their dams, which are NOT watertight…but they do work to repair major leaks. So answer this: HOW will be secure every inch of our borders, and how much are you willing to pay in extra taxes to do it?
Doggone/GA
July 5th, 2011
10:40 am
“Wow, so just give up?”
How much are you willing for you taxes to be increased to pay for it?
Kamchak
July 5th, 2011
10:42 am
Wow, so just give up?
No, just attack the problem from another angle.
Dave R.
July 5th, 2011
10:42 am
:and as a liberal *I* am tired of being accuse of things that aren’t true. And so I stopped reading your rant after the lie about all liberals. If that LIE wasn’t PARTISAN, then nothing is.:
And as an EOI on this blog, I’m tired of all the short-tempered partisans who call every error, imprecise wording or mistake a LIE.
A lie is a statement deliberately made when the person making it KNOWS the statement to be untrue.
Until everyone on this blog develops ESP and KNOWS what everyone else knows before posting, or until facts are put in evidence that disputes the statement and the originator still sticks to their story, the word “lie” should be banned from everyone’s repertoire.
Bosch
July 5th, 2011
10:42 am
“than we native Americans”
Oh Lord, I hope josef doesn’t see that.
Atlas Shrugging
July 5th, 2011
10:43 am
The thin guy….well said…there are maore parasites living off the tax payers than destroying crops.
Joe Mama
July 5th, 2011
10:43 am
LOL — “Liberals want everybody to be granted citizenship”
I’m a liberal and I don’t want that. I think there are a LOT of liberals who don’t want that.
poison pen
July 5th, 2011
10:44 am
Doggone/GA
” Please find and post a link that shows how illegal immigrants can claim welfare. I’m sure they will be VERY interested to know.”
Doggone, If you go to the GOA and check 11/19/1997 you will find a study that Illegals got 1.1 Billion in false aid. That was all kinds of aid, not just walfare.
The study was done in 3 or 4 states only.
The illegals have a child here and then use that SS# to scam the Govt. this is only one way.
Please check out the site, this was done 14 years ago and as you know we have had millions of illegals sneak over our borders since then, so I would think that the cost is a lot higher now.
Kamchak
July 5th, 2011
10:44 am
And as an EOI on this blog…
Not intended to be a factual statement.
Doggone/GA
July 5th, 2011
10:45 am
“The illegals have a child here and then use that SS# to scam the Govt. this is only one way”
If that child is born on US soil, then you are talking about a US Citizen.
Bosch
July 5th, 2011
10:45 am
“the word “lie” should be banned from everyone’s repertoire”
Well Dave R., it is lying to say that all liberals believe or think something when nothing can be further from the truth. It is a dishonest statement, in other words, a lie.
“making it KNOWS the statement to be untrue”
So either the person who makes such blanket statements is either a) a dumb ass for making such false sweeping generalizations, or b) a liar because they KNOW such statments are not true, but do so anyway.
USinUK
July 5th, 2011
10:46 am
what’s EOI, again?
poison pen
July 5th, 2011
10:47 am
Doggone/GA
“You can’t repair the damage from leak until you STOP the LEAK!”
” Beavers do it all the time to their dams, which are NOT watertight…but they do work to repair major leaks. So answer this: HOW will be secure every inch of our borders, and how much are you willing to pay in extra taxes to do it?”
What if we got that cheap illegal labor to do it. ( just a joke )
Doggone/GA
July 5th, 2011
10:47 am
“what’s EOI, again”
Equal Opportunity Instigator
Mr Right
July 5th, 2011
10:47 am
No, just attack the problem from another angle.
Hmm, and what would that be?
USinUK
July 5th, 2011
10:47 am
Hi Bosch! Doggone, Dave, Kammy-Kam, Poison …
hope everyone had a lovely 4th!
Baby Suggs
July 5th, 2011
10:48 am
If one has no job and no desire to get one, how, pray tell, do they do they pay for clothing, housing, food. Sorry, I forgot drug dealing, pimping, whoring, lottery winnings, and inheritance.
godless your mom called, she said it’s time to come upstairs for your nap. It seems you’ve been up too long sniffing paint fumes in the basement and now you’re turning cranky. Kids these days!
JoeMama: It should be pointed out that harvesting jobs require folks to move around a lot, so commuting and lodging costs will take a big wet bite out of that paycheck
No doubt. That $10/hour quickly turns into $4.50/hr.
Mickey: If it costs more for food because farmers pay more for labor, so be it.
And you’d be perfectly fine with that right? You wouldn’t start screeching about rising cost of food/gas/etc. you’d just grin and bear it, correct? Yeah righhhhhttttttt…………….
deegee: Then we state that American workers will work the unskilled, semi-skilled jobs that immigrants hold if the employers would just pay them a living wage. Isn’t that ironic?
Truly ironic.
USinUK
July 5th, 2011
10:48 am
Doggone – (chuckling) – oh, yeah, that’s right …
Bosch
July 5th, 2011
10:48 am
Joe Mama
July 5th, 2011
10:43 am
LOL — “Liberals want everybody to be granted citizenship”
I’m a liberal and I don’t want that. I think there are a LOT of liberals who don’t want that.
Okay, so far there are three here (myself included in this) that don’t want that, and I know USinUK doesn’t either because she’s mentioned that, so that makes four.
We can make that easy and ask if there are any “liberals” here on the board that DO want that. What say ye libs?
AmVet
July 5th, 2011
10:48 am
Completely *sealing* our borders is as ludicrous as was Reagan’s Star Wars.
The smartest approach is what BHO did earlier this year, send more funds and National Guard and other manpower to the BIG problem areas like San Diego County…
Doggone/GA
July 5th, 2011
10:49 am
“Hmm, and what would that be?”
Make the laws against HIRING illegal immigrants much tougher, and theN FUND ENFORCEMENT of those laws. Taking a big bite out of available jobs will take a big bite out of the reason for people to try to cross our borders illegally.
poison pen
July 5th, 2011
10:50 am
Bosch
“the word “lie” should be banned from everyone’s repertoire”
Well Dave R., it is lying to say that all liberals believe or think something when nothing can be further from the truth. It is a dishonest statement, in other words, a lie.
“making it KNOWS the statement to be untrue”
” So either the person who makes such blanket statements is either a) a dumb ass for making such false sweeping generalizations, or b) a liar because they KNOW such statments are not true, but do so anyway.”
Bosch, Does that apply to your 8:09 post also?????????????????.
Bosch
July 5th, 2011
10:50 am
HI USinUK! [Waving] The Bosches did have a nice 4th — really low key, but nice — good BBQ and veggies from the garden. Tonight is fried okra and green tomato night! Yeee ha!!
Hope I didn’t just speak out of place for you.
Joe Mama
July 5th, 2011
10:50 am
LOL– “Mr Right – of course securing the border is the FIRST step, but try to sell that to a Liberal/Progressive. You can’t repair the damage from leak until you STOP the LEAK!”
I disagree. If we make it painful for businesses to hire illegals — knowingly or not — and give them the tools to instantly determine if a job applicant is legal or not — then we will remove all incentive and reason for them to COME here AND to BE here.
Throw a few business owners and big businessmen in jail for employing illegals and then there won’t be any jobs here for illegals any more. And they will stop coming then — and the ones who are here will self-deport.
When you want an elegant and simple solution, ask a liberal.
When you want a simple solution that makes some people feel good but won’t actually solve the problem, ask a conservative.
poison pen
July 5th, 2011
10:51 am
USinUK, Thank you, we did and I hope yours was good also.
Kamchak
July 5th, 2011
10:51 am
Hmm, and what would that be?
Glad you asked.
But Americans also want to be assured that this is the last time a broad legalization option is offered to illegal immigrants. Democrats ought to make it clear that they’ll enforce the borders and crack down on employers who hire illegally, a cheaper and more effective strategy for addressing the problem than building fences. After a few CEOs have done the perp walk for illegal hiring, they’ll stop offering jobs to those without proper documents. And when word gets across the border that U.S. companies have stopped hiring, those laborers will stop coming. They come for jobs, after all, not jihad.
Bosch
July 5th, 2011
10:51 am
No poison it doesn’t, because that wasn’t an absolute sweeping genrealization about a group of people or a false statement. There are two neighborhoods in my town where most of the inhabitants (I’d say about 90%) have up and left. If you don’t believe me, I simply do not care.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
July 5th, 2011
10:52 am
Instigator? I always assumed it was IDIOT
Doggone/GA
July 5th, 2011
10:52 am
USinUK – my 4th was quiet, but the weekend before was busy. Went out “waterfalling” and I’m now up to 340!
redneckbluedog
July 5th, 2011
10:54 am
I hate it for the farmers, and the losses are real…BUT, the losses are small compared to the crime these illegal alien leeches cause as well as motor vehicle accidents and indigent medical costs…
Doggone/GA
July 5th, 2011
10:55 am
“BUT, the losses are small compared to the crime these illegal alien leeches cause as well as motor vehicle accidents and indigent medical costs”
Care to try to provide some proof of that?
USinUK
July 5th, 2011
10:55 am
Poison – sadly, the Brits don’t recognize the 4th of July (I wonder why ???) – but everyone at work was very kind!
Bosch – ohsweetjeebus … fried okra … I’m drooling on my keyboard – my mom and I used to make that and eat it as fast as it came out of the pan! the family was always very confused on why a huge bag of raw okra resulted in a small bowl of fried okra
oh, and you were right on the £££ with how I feel about immigration – if I and my mister had to jump through hoops, then EVERYONE ELSE CAN, TOO, DAMMIT
Mr Right
July 5th, 2011
10:55 am
When you want an elegant and simple solution, ask a liberal.
Yea, like how to lower the debt by spending more money? Thanks for the laugh of the day!
josef
July 5th, 2011
10:55 am
First, the thread…well said, Jay.
As for the cost of HB87, we won’t know that insofar as the agricultural sector is concerned until the harvest is in and marketed. Right now that is an unknown factor, but it is raising the question in more real terms. We’ll see.
Second, those talking about the post Civil War and the institution of share cropping. No doubt that’s the “solution” those in power now are looking for, a modern day version thereof. And just for the record for those out to play the race card on that one, sharecropping threw millions of white landless and ruined peasants into the same camp. Then when it became clear that the landless could see common cause across race lines, we wound up with the big boys here and Up North alike seeing it in their best interests to do all within their power to pit black and white against each other. I can see something very similar in the works here.
BOSCH
I am here, didn’t scroll back too much on this one…who said what about native Americans?
SKH
July 5th, 2011
10:56 am
“It isn’t a GUESSING game, it’s an opportunity to educate youself about the process of amending the constitution. You left out A HUGE STEP, and I invite you to complete your edcuation and look it up.”
Are you referring to the need for states to ratify the amendment? Did you not comprehend the point I was making or are you being childishly condescending? Have amendments been made to the Constitution before? Yes. Hence they are possible. Given sufficient political support, I suppose almost any amendment could be passed. If we were living a hundred years ago and having a conversation, would either of us have imagined a Germany led by Hitler? But let’s bring it closer to home: how many Klansman in the South were ever prosecuted for lynching blacks? Not many. And just why is that? Hitler or the Klan could not have existed without the complicity (active or passive) of the majority. I think you don’t recognize what I believe to be a fact of history: human beings, either individually or corporately, are capable of truly unbelievably good or evil actions. I don’t believe there is any guarantee America will not fall prey to madness at some point.
USinUK
July 5th, 2011
10:56 am
Doggone – woohoo!! more waterfalls! I need to check out the bloggy goodness when I get home
Bosch
July 5th, 2011
10:57 am
josef,
See Thin Guy’s 10:39.
USinUK
July 5th, 2011
10:57 am
“If we make it painful for businesses to hire illegals — knowingly or not — and give them the tools to instantly determine if a job applicant is legal or not — then we will remove all incentive and reason for them to COME here AND to BE here.”
amen.
and amen.
and all god’s children said A-FREAKIN-MEN
Left wing management
July 5th, 2011
10:59 am
Did somebody say “liberal”?
Just what IS a liberal?
In 1986 Ronald Reagan signed a sweeping immigration reform bill which included enforcement measures but also opened the way for amnesty.
Now, tell me with a straight face that Ronald Reagan was a “liberal”.
Go on.
Anyone?
josef
July 5th, 2011
11:00 am
BOSCH
“Liberals want everybody to be granted citizenship”
Add me to the list of those liberals who don’t call for citizenship for everybody…
Doggone/GA
July 5th, 2011
11:00 am
“Are you referring to the need for states to ratify the amendment?”
Yes. Because you “stopped” the process at being passed by Congress. Congress cannot amend the Constitution. They can pass the bill, but you wouldn’t have to leave until it is actually ratified per the Constitutional requirements for amendments.
And even then, it’s possible that the Supreme Court could invalidate such an amendment if it violated other provisions of the Constitution. Even atification is not a guarantee.
Dave R.
July 5th, 2011
11:00 am
“Well Dave R., it is lying to say that all liberals believe or think something when nothing can be further from the truth. It is a dishonest statement, in other words, a lie. ”
No, Bosch, it could also be imprecise wording (something our host is prone to do from time to time as well).
Heck, the insertion of a single word in that earlier statement would have made it true.
Insert “politicians” after “liberal”.
But since it sounds so much more poutrageous when you can accuse someone of “lying” it works for all too many people on this blog.
Baby Suggs
July 5th, 2011
11:01 am
Which would you rather do? Sit on your rear blogging in your air conditioned digs supported by you government check or go out and work for a living.
Most people on this blog are bloging from work. Duh.
Doggone/GA
July 5th, 2011
11:01 am
“In 1986 Ronald Reagan signed a sweeping immigration reform bill which included enforcement measures but also opened the way for amnesty”
And the problem with that bill, which is quite likely a direct influence on our current problem, is that Congress never funded adequately the ENFORCEMENT measures included.
Moderate Line
July 5th, 2011
11:01 am
RRCC
July 5th, 2011
9:05 am
MYTH: Immigrants take jobs from Americans.
FACT: Immigrants create new jobs, and complement the skills of the
U.S. native workforce.
++++
For all those using the MYTH/FACT argument. Stating something you disagree with as MYTH and things you agree with as FACT does not make either one a MYTH or FACT. In order to proved your point you need to provide either logic or evidence to prove your point.
The only thing that I gather from this type of argument is what you personally believe to be true and what you personally believe is not true.
If I disagree with you before the argument I am not persuaded by such arguments.
If I agree with you I have no further evidence than what I already have.
This should be labeled in MY OPINIION not FACT or MYTH.
Here are the FACT/MYTH based on an NPR article.
FACT: Illegal immigration has both negative and positive impacts on different parts of the economy. As noted above, wages for low-skilled workers go down. But that means the rest of America benefits by paying lower prices for things like restaurant meals, agricultural produce and construction. Another negative impact is on government expenditures. Since undocumented workers generally don’t pay income taxes but do use schools and other government services, they are seen as a drain on government spending.
Do illegal immigrants affect wages?Yes and no.
First the no. The most respected recent studies show that most Americans would notice little difference in their paychecks if illegal immigrants suddenly disappeared from the United States. That’s because most Americans don’t directly compete with illegal immigrants for jobs.
Next the Yes. There is one group of Americans that would benefit from a dramatic cut in illegal immigration: high-school dropouts. Most economists agree that the wages of low-skill high-school dropouts are suppressed by somewhere between 3 percent and 8 percent because of competition from immigrants, both legal and illegal. Economists speculate that for the average high-school dropout, that would mean about a $25 a week raise if there were no job competition from immigrants.
Dave R.
July 5th, 2011
11:01 am
Hi, USinUK.
My 4th was GREAT. Thanks for asking. Do you still celebrate over there?