The utter madness of not raising the debt ceiling
The United States would immediately have its top-notch credit rating slashed to “selective default” if it misses a debt payment on Aug. 4, Standard & Poor’s managing director John Chambers told Reuters.
Chambers, who is also the chairman of S&P’s sovereign ratings committee, told Reuters on Tuesday that U.S. Treasury bills maturing on Aug. 4 would be rated ‘D’ if the government fails to honor them. Unaffected Treasuries would be downgraded as well, but not as sharply, he said.
“If the U.S. government misses a payment, it goes to D,” Chambers said.
“The full consequence of a default — or even the serious prospect of default — by the United States are impossible to predict and awesome to contemplate. Denigration of the full faith and credit of the United States would have substantial effects on the domestic financial markets and on the value of the dollar in exchange markets. The nation can ill afford to allow such a result. The risks, the costs, the disruptions, and the incalculable damage lead me to but one conclusion: the Senate must pass the legislation before the Congress adjourns.”
Social Security benefits could be among the first casualties if President Obama and Congress can’t agree to increase the government’s debt limit on Aug. 2, a new analysis shows.
The Bipartisan Policy Center studied Treasury Department receipts and expenditures for August 2009 and 2010 and determined that the government likely would not have enough revenue to pay the full $23 billion payment to Social Security recipients due on Aug. 3.
On that day, according to the analysis, the government would take in about $12 billion in taxes and other revenue but would owe $32 billion, creating a $20 billion shortfall….
“We should be honest with ourselves what this would be like, and the answer is it would be chaotic,” said Jerome Powell, a former Treasury official in the first Bush administration. “There is no way to avoid really serious pain.”
From the Bipartisan Policy Center, documenting what the federal government could and could not continue to pay for once the debt ceiling is hit and the government is prohibited from borrowing additional funds:
Everything above the red line could theoretically be financed, although in practice that would be very difficult because inflows and outflows are so “lumpy,” BPC analysts conclude. (In addition, this is what a “balanced budget” would look like absent additional revenue. To preserve those things above the red line, every expenditure below the red line would have to end.)
In other words, we could continue to pay off bondholders such as China for a few weeks. They could, theoretically, still get paid. But we couldn’t pay our own soldiers. No government salaries would be paid at all, including for those employees who would supposedly be sending out the checks to China and elsewhere.
It is suicidal madness to even contemplate such a step.
– Jay Bookman
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842 comments Add your comment
Logical Dude
June 30th, 2011
12:51 pm
Mighty Righty: Please explain how the U.S. not borrowing money will cause Global chaos and meltdown.
Will you QUIT moving your goalpost? You said: If our credit rating is shot and we can’t borrow money.
It’s about the CREDIT RATING. If the Credit Rating of the United States of America is shot, then, as the WORLD’S LARGEST ECONOMY, the Global repurcussions would be terrible.
Now, with your new goalpost, I would agree that we need to pay down the country’s debt, which is done by increasing revenue and decreasing spending.
Logical Dude
June 30th, 2011
12:51 pm
Mighty Righty: Please explain how the U.S. not borrowing money will cause Global chaos and meltdown.
Will you QUIT moving your goalpost? You said: If our credit rating is shot and we can’t borrow money.
It’s about the CREDIT RATING. If the Credit Rating of the United States of America is shot, then, as the WORLD’S LARGEST ECONOMY, the Global repurcussions would be terrible.
Now, with your new goalpost, I would agree that we need to pay down the country’s debt, which is done by increasing revenue and decreasing spending.
willie lynch
June 30th, 2011
12:51 pm
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
12:37 pm
I hope you understand I was commenting on the very solid ground your position held.
Baby Suggs
June 30th, 2011
12:52 pm
Were any of you repubs unhappy when the republican led congress/senate/president/vice-president did away with the Clinton Pay-As-You-Go plan? I can’t seem to remember an outcry from the right, but perhaps I must’ve blinked and missed it………
BADA BING
June 30th, 2011
12:53 pm
Uncle Jed…..yes a Yugo, but I have the deluxe model with a heated rear window, so that the people pushing the car in the winter can keep their hands warm. The Blue Book value depends on how full the gas tank is.
Larry
June 30th, 2011
12:54 pm
Baby Suggs -
So your logic is, it was stupid then, but you did it, so now it’s our turn to be stupid? Sounds like stupid is as stupid does logic to me
Blue
June 30th, 2011
12:55 pm
You’ll forgive me if I don’t really consider your opinion to be very relevant…
Mighty Righty
June 30th, 2011
12:55 pm
Rich
June 30th, 2011
12:37 pm
“We should create a fund that everyone who thinks we should have higher taxes can contribute. I know PA tried it and receive less than $100,000, but if we could collect a small amount from all those who say they want higher taxes, we should be able to balance the budget. If not we cut spending. My guess is those who want higher taxes, want others to pay it”
You are exactly correct. I suggest a box on the 1040 form where those generous with other peoples money could check what they would like to have deducted from their pay for the following year. They could choose 5%, 10%, or 20% in addition to their normal witholding.
captguitarman
June 30th, 2011
12:55 pm
Americans should be watching Greece closely, because therein may lie our future. Once America fully transforms from an educated, informed, personally responsible, and self reliant culture into a culture of government dependency, Greece could happen here. We are well on the way to that in case you have not noticed, and in order to obtain permanent power, one of our poltical parties is fueling that transformation. If you doubt that, just recall the recent turmoil in Wisconsin, because the state government had to take back this time instead of give.
Hundreds of thousands of Greek citizens have violently and destructively taken to the streets in protest — for truth, for justice, for liberty, for equality? — No — because they are dependent upon their socialist government to live, and the government no longer has enough of other people’s money to fund their dependency in the way to which they have become accustomed. So they are pissed. Will they get up off their butts and go do something. No. They will throw violent tantrums, like children.
And yesterday, was just a preview by Obama of what will be coming in the next election, scare tactics, demagoguery, and class warfare. Both political parties have played a role in getting America into to this dangerous predicament. But, I think the Pubs honestly do want to stop the madness, and have demonstrated the political courage (some say stupidity) to come up with ideas, proposals, and legislation (all very painful) to begin to turn things around in the long term. The Dems on the other hand are proposing little to nothing, certainly nothing financially painful, and quietly setting a trap for the next election where they will propose no solutions, except higher taxes on the “rich” (welcome back Great Recession – we were starting to miss you). They will instead use scare tactics and demagogue against the evil Pubs who want to take away or cut “entitlements” (God, I hate that word) for “ordinary Americans” and look to higher taxes to pay for the neverending, always increasing debt and government growth and spending. Where will the money come from? It will be confiscated from the rich and borrowed – until there are no more rich and no one will loan any more.
Where do you draw the line? It should be be coming clear that the philosophy of the Dem/Libs is that you never draw the line. Because in the future, that will be how power is obtained and held permanently. The responsible, self-reliant, workers, producers are going to become the miniority — due to increasing government dependence, successfully waged class warfare, and the avalanche of dependent illegal immigrants the Dems want to see continued. When those dependent on government become the true political majority, this nation will no longer be America. The very soul of this America is in the balance. Freedom from government control, individual freedom, self- determnation, the rule of law and equality under the law, economic freedom and the opportunity to succeed or to fail, personal responsibilty and accountability, religious faith and strong moral character and exceptionalism, and the will to fight and sacrifice our lives and treasure for freedom for ourselves and for others — all of those things make up the soul of this nation. Look at Greece. Do we want to become Greece? Think about what depending on our government or someone or anything else would mean for America. We are being led in that direction. Scary.
williebkind
June 30th, 2011
12:56 pm
Amvet
I excoriate whites who do not take personal responsibility like the progressive liberals.
josef
June 30th, 2011
12:56 pm
BADA
Had not heard that…thanks for the update…I need to call one of my colleagues…she’s Japanese-Peruvian!
Logical Dude
June 30th, 2011
12:56 pm
I apologize for the duplicate post, the “Submit Comment” button didn’t seem to work. . .
I blame the national debt on this.
Mr Right
June 30th, 2011
12:56 pm
It is suicidal madness to even contemplate such a step.
The party is over. The bills are now due.
The debt we have is total madness!
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
12:57 pm
To the chant of USA! USA! USA!
BRO SEE FUSS! BRO SEE FUSS! BRO SEE FUSS!
Doggone/GA
June 30th, 2011
12:57 pm
“I excoriate whites who do not take personal responsibility like the progressive liberals”
I suspect this is not saying what you think it is. Or do you really think, as you’ve said, that “progressive liberals” DO take personal reponsibility?
The Gipper
June 30th, 2011
12:59 pm
When we hit the debt ceiling, cut social security and medicare payments to Republicans since they already claim that they don’t get anything and increase taxes on Republicans since they already claim that they’re the only ones that pay anything and that should take care of our money issues. Afterward, I’ll coach you on how to sell the increased spending on select entitlements and increased taxation to the base. They’re so gullible. You don’t even need to be a professional actor to con them. I should know.
Mighty Righty
June 30th, 2011
12:59 pm
BADA BING
June 30th, 2011
12:53 pm
You should be at the comedy club. I can hardly see to type this for the tears caused by laughing.
Dave R.
June 30th, 2011
12:59 pm
“He’s just in the same minstrel show as Redneck from what I can gather…”
Can you say minstrel show and not be accused of being bigoted today?
Mr Right
June 30th, 2011
12:59 pm
Has anyone signed up for GBTV ?
williebkind
June 30th, 2011
12:59 pm
“The very soul of this America is in the balance. Freedom from government control, individual freedom, self- determnation, the rule of law and equality under the law, economic freedom and the opportunity to succeed or to fail, personal responsibilty and accountability, religious faith and strong moral character and exceptionalism, and the will to fight and sacrifice our lives and treasure for freedom for ourselves and for others — all of those things make up the soul of this nation.”
Now that gave me goosebumps!
Left wing management
June 30th, 2011
12:59 pm
Mighty Righty: “Please explain how the U.S. not borrowing money will cause Global chaos and meltdown”
If you have to ask the question why the world’s largest economy suddenly defaulting on its loans will be a problem, then you obviously don’t understand the first thing about the world economy, in other words, you don’t understand the first thing about capitalism in its current state. I mean zilch.
Which is amazing, considering you think of yourself as being the big defender of capitalism.
You NEED the ‘liberals’ you so despise to save your beloved capitalism. That’s the ultimate irony of our times.
Soothsayer
June 30th, 2011
1:01 pm
Amvet, for your 12:47!
oldguy
June 30th, 2011
1:01 pm
Ah Jay (and other selected Socialists here)
You remind me of days gone by when I spent dawn on Lake Hartwell, listening to the cries of the Wild Loons!!
Your hero and his Czars and Czarinas have spent us into an impossible corner and now its our fault that we are unwilling to Prostitute our Grandchildren to an infinity of debt to bail you out.
In the imortal words of Charlie Chan “Sooo Solly!!”
Was it Goerge Patton who said “Shoot them all and let God sort them out!”?
Well let Obozo sort it out
FREEZE THE DEBT!! If the feds shut down we will all be safer!!!
Dave R.
June 30th, 2011
1:03 pm
“Libertarianism is a type of purified liberalism.”
Not even remotely true, at least when discussing the different philosophies liberals espouse versus what liberty means. Economic and social freedom has never equated to liberalism.
Dave R.
June 30th, 2011
1:05 pm
“You NEED the ‘liberals’ you so despise to save your beloved capitalism. That’s the ultimate irony of our times.”
Not quite. We need the liberals we so despise to get out of our way so that we can save capitalism.
The Owl
June 30th, 2011
1:06 pm
One thing we could do without is the grossly unnecessary Department of Education in DC. States can do better without it. What a waste of money!
williebkind
June 30th, 2011
1:06 pm
What is social freedom? I have always thought of individual freedom.
LOL
June 30th, 2011
1:07 pm
The President can get his debt ceiling raise, all he and the Dems have to do is cut spending and they can get the ceiling raised. What’s the problem?
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
1:07 pm
Willie Lynch — “I hope you understand I was commenting on the very solid ground your position held.”
I didn’t, but I do thank you for the clarification. And, upon re-reading your last post to me, your kind words, sir.
Mighty Righty
June 30th, 2011
1:07 pm
captguitarman
June 30th, 2011
12:55 pm
Unfortunately you are right. Wait ans see what will happen in this country if “benefits” are cut. Obama has his private army made up of S.E.I.U., U.A.W., N.E.A., Acorn, Black Panthers and others which will fill the streets with armed thugs. I hope I am wrong.
jms
June 30th, 2011
1:08 pm
The utter madness is that our debt is anywhere near the ridiculously high debt ceiling.
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
1:08 pm
Righty — “You are exactly correct. I suggest a box on the 1040 form where those generous with other peoples money could check what they would like to have deducted from their pay for the following year. They could choose 5%, 10%, or 20% in addition to their normal witholding.”
And the “Tu Quoque” logical fallacy attains new heights in the hands of our conservative friends and associates.
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
1:10 pm
Funny, because unlike the plethora of times you’ve railed against blacks, I’ve never once seen you decry any whites. As noted above perhaps I blinked and missed it, but if I’m wrong I’m sure you can show me in black and white (get it?) the error of my ways.
Two of many…
Williebkind
May 6th, 2010
12:12 pm
How about the racist name calling and the violent rioting by the liberals over the Arizona bill. Oh but they were not black. OK, never mind.
Williebkind
May 6th, 2010
3:31 pm
Sorry for being away for so long but I had a problem. Some black people were trying to break into my building. A great neighborhood.
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
1:10 pm
Dave — “Not quite. We need the liberals we so despise to get out of our way so that we can save capitalism.”
Capitalism isn’t what needs saving. Our country is.
If capitalism so needs saving, then perhaps it’s time to consider other economic systems.
Left wing management
June 30th, 2011
1:11 pm
If anybody has any doubts about the ideological decision point that we are at right now in this country, just look at captguitarman’s 12:55. There you have the entire fraud reproduced in perfect form, bought hook, line, and sinker by someone who has been sold a bill of goods.
captguitarman, let’s step outside Fox News world for just 2 seconds, shall we? Do you really think the problem with Greece is that the people are
Or do you not think it might be that they are protesting 1) the corruption of their neoliberal enabler puppet government and 2) the subjugation of their country to that same neoliberal regime represented by the IMF in the name of higher profits for the capitalist pillaging class?
Thulsa Doom
June 30th, 2011
1:12 pm
Alexis de Tocqueville had it right. He gave us 200 years to surivive as a democracy before we would collapse from within. Why the inevitable collapse? Because sooner or later the population begins to realize it can vote itself goodies at the expense of others. And the inevitable welfare state and financial collapse ensues a la Greece. We are Greece a few years from now.
Fletch
June 30th, 2011
1:13 pm
captguitarman@12:55
You forgot the part about Apes rising up and taking over the planet.
Left wing management
June 30th, 2011
1:13 pm
Dave R. “Economic and social freedom has never equated to liberalism”
Odd. I think John Stuart Mill and Adam Smith and others would find that claim very strange.
Dave R.
June 30th, 2011
1:13 pm
Sound proof cages at the Yerkes Primate Center would be perfect.
Or a keyboard-free zone in this case.
oldguy
June 30th, 2011
1:15 pm
Next false point:
You Libs here all seem to be concerned that a default on our debt will “Ruin the countries credit (debt) rating”.
So what?? You live within your means and pay as you go and you need no credit rating!!!! DUH
Left wing management
June 30th, 2011
1:16 pm
Thulsa, wow I agree with you 100% except for one word. ONE WORD is all you have to change to make that a perfectly accurate statement.
Alexis de Tocqueville had it right. He gave us 200 years to surivive as a democracy before we would collapse from within. Why the inevitable collapse? Because sooner or later the
populationCAPITALIST CLASS begins to realize it can vote itself goodies at the expense of others.Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
1:16 pm
Righty — “Obama has his private army made up of S.E.I.U., U.A.W., N.E.A., Acorn, Black Panthers and others which will fill the streets with armed thugs.”
No. This is not possible. Remember, liberals are anti-gun girly-men, and besides, Ann Coulter says you’re wrong. To quote the previous thread,
“Liberals are not like most Americans. They are the biggest pussies on Earth, city-bred weaklings who didn’t play a sport and have never been in a fight in their entire lives. Their mothers made excuses for them when they threw tantrums and spent way too much time praising them during toilet training.”
“A liberal’s idea of being a bad-ass is to say vicious things to a conservative public figure who can’t afford to strike back. Getting in a stranger’s face and hurling insults at him, knowing full well he has too much at risk to deck you, is like baiting a bear chained to a wall.”
“These brave-hearts know exactly what they can get away with. They assault a conservative only when it’s a sucker-punch, they outnumber him, or he can’t fight back for reasons of law or decorum.”
“Liberals don’t get that when you’re outnumbering the enemy 100-1, you’re not brave.”
“When someone does fight back, liberals transform from aggressor to victim in an instant, collapsing on the ground and screaming bloody murder. I’ve seen it happen in a nearly empty auditorium when there was quite obviously no other human within 5 feet of the gutless invertebrate.”
“Sometimes — a lot more often than you’ve heard about — liberals do engage in physical violence against conservatives … and then bravely run away.”
“These liberal pukes have never taken a punch in their lives. A sock to the yap would be an eye-opening experience, and I believe it would do wonders.”
“Believe me, liberal mobbings will stop very quickly after the first toilet-training champion takes his inaugural punch.”
Is this what you’re afraid of, Righty? Harsh language? (pointing, laughing)
Mighty Righty
June 30th, 2011
1:16 pm
For those of you who are learning challenged I copieid my post below for your perusal. Please point out where in this post I suggested “default.”
June 30th, 2011
11:04 am
Horror of horrors, the Federal Government will have to live within its means. If our credit rating is shot and we can’t borrow money, Hoorah! Like drug addicts, our president and representives will not curb their addiction to spending unless forced to.
Paul Krugman, who the looneys like to quote, said yesterday if the government eliminated the tax breaks allowed “big oil” and eliminated the “corporate jets” write off, the additional revenue to the federal government over the next 100 years, would be less than Obama spent in February! That is why a tax increase to reduce the deficit is simply silly. We have to cut spending. If that means closing the Department of Education, so be it. We cannot tax our way out of the mess Obama has put us in. We must cut spending by 1.5 trillion dollars per year just to stay even!
Thulsa Doom
June 30th, 2011
1:17 pm
If capitalism so needs saving, then perhaps it’s time to consider other economic systems.- Joe Mama
A majority believes capitalism is not working. The irony is that free-market capitalism has not existed anywhere on Earth for the last 100 years. It is collectivism that is not working; yet people will clamor for more collectivism because they don’t know one from the other.
josef
June 30th, 2011
1:17 pm
old guy…
“Kill them all and let G-d sort them out” was not Patton. It was Arnaud-Armaury, the Abbot of Citeaux, and “spiritual advisor” to the in the Albigensian Crusade, ordered by Pope Innocent III to purge southern France of the Cathari heretics.
BROSEPUS
Now why would my uppity self know that!
Logical Dude
June 30th, 2011
1:17 pm
oldguy: You live within your means and pay as you go and you need no credit rating!!!!
What? That’s a GREAT IDEA!
LOL
June 30th, 2011
1:17 pm
I think the Republicans should give Mr. Obama what he asked for yesterday. Cut the subsidies for Corp. Jets, and big oil, and ethanol, and farmers, and NPR, etc…Cut all of the subsidies; we don’t have the money right now; but DO NOT RAISE TAXES. This President and his party along with G.W. Bush have/had a SPENDING problem. Make the necessary cuts Mr. President, do your JOB, quit fund raising, and playing golf and get your damn job done.
oldguy
June 30th, 2011
1:18 pm
Hi Thulsa and welcome in!
Got to go get some lunch now, Canada is loosing the world cup game….booring!!
Left wing management
June 30th, 2011
1:19 pm
oldguy: “So what?? You live within your means and pay as you go and you need no credit rating!!!! DUH”
Don’t run with scissors, child. These ideas are dangerous things if you don’t know what you’re doing.
Our entanglement in world capital markets is precisely the PRECONDITION for our ‘living within our means’, you see?
oldguy
June 30th, 2011
1:19 pm
living it Logical…..
Logical Dude
June 30th, 2011
1:20 pm
oldguy: You live within your means and pay as you go and you need no credit rating!!!!
What? That’s a GREAT IDEA!
(silly “Submit Comment” was hit too early)
Too bad WE ARE ALREADY DEEP IN DEBT. Your Great Idea would have needed to be working 50 years ago!!!
So, what do we do today to keep the world’s economy going?
1) We raise the debt limit to be able to pay all the bills due curently
2) We reduce spending so we have lower bills
3) We increase revenue in partnership with spending reductions
4) We PAY DOWN THE DEBT when we hit the surplus, instead of cutting taxes like BUSH did.
This path is fairly simple, but it won’t be easy.
Brosephus
June 30th, 2011
1:20 pm
Now why would my uppity self know that!
SSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It’s a secret.
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
1:22 pm
Doom — “The irony is that free-market capitalism has not existed anywhere on Earth for the last 100 years.”
I suspect that the arms merchants of Mogadishu would disagree with your assertion.
Cirillo
June 30th, 2011
1:23 pm
“Social Security benefits could be among the first casualties…”
Oh dear, geezers dyin in the streets. Maybe the answer to the dilemma can be found in the movie “Soylent Green”.
Honu
June 30th, 2011
1:23 pm
Happy Birthday, RW, wherevah you are — hope your day is faboo!!!
Logical Dude
June 30th, 2011
1:24 pm
Cirillo: Maybe the answer to the dilemma can be found in the movie “Soylent Green”.
Or Logan’s Run?
Honu
June 30th, 2011
1:24 pm
AmVet — “williebklan” still has me cryin’ laughing up here. Best of the day!!!
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
1:26 pm
“Soylent Green? How’s it taste?”
“It varies from person to person.”
–Futurama
Thulsa Doom
June 30th, 2011
1:26 pm
Joe Mama,
A few arms merchants trading in an normally illegal business does not constitute an entire economic system. Is that the best you got today?
Rich
June 30th, 2011
1:27 pm
For those who think we should raise taxes: How much should be raise taxes? What % ? And on who? And how much will it raise? We need about 1.3 Trillion a year.
josef
June 30th, 2011
1:27 pm
JOE
I answered Scout last p.m. on that Coulter one about Liberals being p*ssies because…
DAVE
@ 12:59
I wish Paul would get back…these EOI duties are weighing heavy…
oldguy
June 30th, 2011
1:27 pm
LOL,
you don’t understand the underlying meaning with obama and the libs, the subsidies are just a red herring….. the real point is they want higher taxes….period
More taxes,,,More Spending….More Government!!
“Our entanglement in world capital markets is precisely the PRECONDITION for our ‘living within our means’, you see?” So, who says we have to be in world capital markets??? And I naively thought the US Federal Budget was the US Federal Budget!!
willie lynch
June 30th, 2011
1:29 pm
Mighty Righty
June 30th, 2011
1:16 pm
Ok, so we eliminate the DOE, what do we do with the unemployed.
Krugmans point is that we need substantive revenue increases along with spending cuts in order to bring the fiscal house in order. If you own a business you can cut as much payroll as you want but you will not increase your revenues. If it is your intention to not grow then that’s the path to take but revenue will have to be generated somehow.
Dave R.
June 30th, 2011
1:31 pm
“I wish Paul would get back…these EOI duties are weighing heavy…”
I know, josef. Paul certainly lightens the load around here.
While others specialize in creating more load . . .
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
1:32 pm
The emaciated hagstress writes fallacious nonsense because, lets face it, that stuff sells really well.
It’s like political porn for the lonely old white guys out there on the fringe, who are bored with Billy “Loofah” O and HeadRush…
willie lynch
June 30th, 2011
1:32 pm
Someone please tell me how this vast left-wing conspiracy of more bigger government works and how does it benefit them?
oldguy
June 30th, 2011
1:33 pm
Hey logical,
“So, what do we do today to keep the world’s economy going?
I’m a little hazy as to why we are responsible for the worlds economy, please elaborate !!
P.S. SORRY FOR THE SLIP OF THE FINGER YOU HAD EARLIER, compliment withdrawn!
Baby Suggs
June 30th, 2011
1:33 pm
Larry: Baby Suggs – So your logic is, it was stupid then, but you did it, so now it’s our turn to be stupid? Sounds like stupid is as stupid does logic to me
I just asked a question, I see that you didn’t answer the question though………..almost a good dodge.
Logical Dude
June 30th, 2011
1:33 pm
Rich; For those who think we should raise taxes: How much should be raise taxes? What % ? And on who? And how much will it raise? We need about 1.3 Trillion a year.
First, repeal the Bush/Obama tax cuts.
Second, reduce government subsidies on profitable companies. (i’m not saying eliminate, but reduce)
Third, don’t cap the Medicare tax to a certain salary (it is currently capped, so those with the highest incomes pay the lowest percentage tax).
Just a few things that will help the economy. Along with appropriate spending cuts.
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
1:33 pm
Doom — “A few arms merchants trading in an normally illegal business does not constitute an entire economic system.”
And I didn’t claim that it did. Let’s go back and see what you wrote *before* you moved your goalposts, shall we?
Doom — “The irony is that free-market capitalism has not existed anywhere on Earth for the last 100 years.”
Anywhere on Earth, right? I gave you where it exists. Your claim has now been destroyed. The Joe has spoken.
Besides, if you meant something different from that, then you should have *said* something different from that.
“Is that the best you got today?”
What I got was better than what *you* got. If you don’t want your claims demolished, then don’t make such stupid and easy-to-debunk ones.
Hey, this posting-like-Doom thing is fun. I think I’ll talk down to you some more and see how you like it. (laughing)
BADA BING
June 30th, 2011
1:34 pm
michelle o’s Budget Trimming and Fashion Guide
National Debt Edition
Get your debt under control, and reduce the size of your deficit, just in time for those July 4th pool parties
Never use Red Ink when showing those negative numbers, Pink is less severe and gives a feminine touch
Never list the National Debt in Horizontal columns, Vertical columns give a slimming illusion
Always list those National Debt dollars using a small case ‘b’ or ‘t’. trillions looks smaller than Trillions. No use calling attention to those problem areas
Follow these few tips, and your deficits will look great in that Red, White, and Blue bikini this Holiday Weekend
Left wing management
June 30th, 2011
1:34 pm
Thulsa Doom: “The irony is that free-market capitalism has not existed anywhere on Earth for the last 100 years. It is collectivism that is not working; yet people will clamor for more collectivism because they don’t know one from the other”
Free-market capitalism existed in the 1920s and it gave us a crash that, along with World War II, is the primary reference point for all that follows. The next time that we had it was in the 2000s leading up to the crash, and to a large extent continuing now.
The true irony? That those very same forces who drove that same disastrous era have managed snooker people like you into thinking that 1) free market capitalism has never been truly tried, an obscene lie; and 2) that that’s the only solution to our current woes.
Thulsa Doom
June 30th, 2011
1:34 pm
Rich
June 30th, 2011
1:27 pm
For those who think we should raise taxes: How much should be raise taxes? What % ? And on who? And how much will it raise? We need about 1.3 Trillion a year.
Rich,
I’ve read or heard at least a couple of times that if we tax the top 1 million households at a 100% rate- taking every dime they make, then we could raise roughly a trillion or a little under a trillion. Actually I think the number may have been only 600 or 800 billion. In any event if the projected FY 2011 is 1.74 trillion and we could raise lets say a trillion by taxing those people at 100% then we’re still running a deficit of 3/4 of a trillion dollars. Seems to me like the problem is spending- not taxation. But you can’t tell that to the “tax the rich” crowd on here.
oldguy
June 30th, 2011
1:34 pm
easy Willie,
They control more! period
Logical Dude
June 30th, 2011
1:35 pm
oldguy: SORRY FOR THE SLIP OF THE FINGER YOU HAD EARLIER, compliment withdrawn!
LOL!!
IT’s still a good concept, but one we’ve should’ve done long ago.
“I’m a little hazy as to why we are responsible for the worlds economy, please elaborate !!”
It’s complicated, you see. If you’re hazy on it, then you should probably not try to make arguments about it either way
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
1:35 pm
Thanks Honu.
I’m no BADA nor Redneck Convert, but occasionally I come up with something a bit clever…
poison pen
June 30th, 2011
1:36 pm
Granny Godzilla
” I say cut all Federal Funding to states over and above the amount
the states pay in. ”
Lotsa’ red states in trouble tho….
Granny, May not be a bad idea, when the auto business was booming in Mich, we were near the top for paying into the Govt for fed tax dollare, and if my memory serve me correctly we were number 38 for tax dollars returning.
We always seemed to get the short end.
Logical Dude
June 30th, 2011
1:37 pm
From the quote in the Article:
Denigration of the full faith and credit of the United States would have substantial effects on the domestic financial markets and on the value of the dollar in exchange markets. The nation can ill afford to allow such a result. The risks, the costs, the disruptions, and the incalculable damage
-Ronald Reagan.
Thulsa Doom
June 30th, 2011
1:38 pm
Leftwingmanagement,
Capitalism- or what we think of as capitalism- has lifted more boats out of poverty than any other economic system. Fact. Socialism and especially communistic socialism- is an utter failure. Fact. If you don’t believe that go live in North Korea or Cuba for awhile.
Baby Suggs
June 30th, 2011
1:40 pm
oldguy: So what?? You live within your means and pay as you go and you need no credit rating!!!! DUH
So, to repeat my question from earlier, “Were any of you repubs unhappy when the republican led congress/senate/president/vice-president did away with the Clinton Pay-As-You-Go plan?”
I can’t seem to remember an outcry from the right, but perhaps I must’ve blinked and missed it………
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
1:41 pm
Logical Dude — “-Ronald Reagan”
Well, that’s it then. The Republicans HAVE to compromise now.
willie lynch
June 30th, 2011
1:41 pm
oldguy
June 30th, 2011
1:34 pm
Control more what? Control the ability of a woman to make a choice about her own welfare? Control the ability to dictate who marries who they love? Did they initiate the intrusion into our personal lives (Patriot Act)? Control more what????
Rich
June 30th, 2011
1:41 pm
Logical Dude – “Second, reduce government subsidies on profitable companies. (i’m not saying eliminate, but reduce)” What are these subsidies? Heard it many times, but no one can explain. Are we talking tax deductions?
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
1:42 pm
Speaking of Billy Loofah, he may have to take a pay cut.
Six years ago News Corp purchased MySpace for $580 million — far more than the $35 million it sold for today. At one point MySpace was considered so valuable that Viacom CEO Tom Freston was fired for failing to grab up the social network before News Corp.
Anders Bylund of Ars Technica, estimates that News Corp (owned by Rupert Murdoch — one of the wealthiest men in the world), lost approximately $1.3 Billion dollars on the MySpace deal.
poison pen
June 30th, 2011
1:42 pm
willie lynch
Mighty Righty
Ok, so we eliminate the DOE, what do we do with the unemployed.
” Krugmans point is that we need substantive revenue increases along with spending cuts in order to bring the fiscal house in order. If you own a business you can cut as much payroll as you want but you will not increase your revenues. If it is your intention to not grow then that’s the path to take but revenue will have to be generated somehow. ”
Willie, If you cut spending then there should be extra money left over because you didn’t spend it, so why raise taxes?
josef
June 30th, 2011
1:43 pm
Just a reminder
TCM, 4:30 p.m. today, “Border Incident” *** (1949) George Murphy, Ricardo Montalban, US and Mexican agents set out to smash a vicious illegal immigration ring.
oldguy
June 30th, 2011
1:43 pm
Hey Poison,
To make it work you HAVE to also cut Federal Mandates to the states!!
Thulsa Doom
June 30th, 2011
1:44 pm
Joe Mama,
You fall for it every time. I kinda figured you would respond with a novel or at least a short story arguing everything under the sun. Soooo predictable.
Left wing management
June 30th, 2011
1:44 pm
Thanks, Logical 1:37.
You know I saw the quote cited again last night on TV and it struck me at just how stunning it is to be reminded of it. So I’m glad you posted again.
Here it is once more. Cons are welcome to take a crack at trying to explain away this one:
Denigration of the full faith and credit of the United States would have substantial effects on the domestic financial markets and on the value of the dollar in exchange markets. The nation can ill afford to allow such a result. The risks, the costs, the disruptions, and the incalculable damage.
-Ronald Reagan.
Granny Godzilla
June 30th, 2011
1:45 pm
OMG! OMG! OMG!
“Obama has his private army made up of S.E.I.U., U.A.W., N.E.A., Acorn, Black Panthers and others which will fill the streets with armed thugs.”
which one of you lousy stinkers gave up the Order of Obama secret handshake?
Am Vet? was that you?
Joe Mama?
Left Wing Management?
Where’s Bosch? Did he do it?
Do you think Mighty Righty might show up at our annual dance nude under the Fireworks 4th of July Party?
If he does he better bring a dish for the table.
Hate it when the righties show up empty handed and want to drink all our
punch.
oldguy
June 30th, 2011
1:46 pm
Josef,
Didn’t work then either! >)
Unfortunately I actually remember that movie (vaguely)!!
josef
June 30th, 2011
1:46 pm
ZamVet
Control?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6mGtAYG5l8
David
June 30th, 2011
1:46 pm
“But we couldn’t pay our own soldiers. No government salaries would be paid at all, including for those employees who would supposedly be sending out the checks to China and elsewhere.” Wonder what would happen the first week Congress doesn’t get a paycheck?
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
1:46 pm
pp — “Willie, If you cut spending then there should be extra money left over because you didn’t spend it, so why raise taxes?”
To use Willie’s example, if you cut staffing at your company, you’re not going to *earn* as much revenue as you were before. You simply can’t take on as much business.
Depending on what gets cut at the Federal level, you’re possibly going to decrease services (of all sorts) and quite likely increase *unemployment* as well. I’d rather pay a guy for working than pay him for not working.
JoeFann
June 30th, 2011
1:47 pm
Afternoon all! Been REALLY busy at work so I haven’t been able to chime in much lately, but here goes!
Is it madness? Yes, but that’s what got us here in the first place. The old American notion of spend now, pay later. Guess what–it’s now later! Been happening for most of a century, but we needed this President to turn comedy to satire to tragedy. Certainly it’s not all his fault, but he truly is the ultimate product of our political system, both fortunate to come of political age at the right time to get elected, and unfortunate to get elected at the worst time, economically, to be a sitting president. His presidency was doomed by time, and his preparation too shallow to make a meaningful difference, whether he gets one term, or two. It would be nice, however, if he would take his foot off the accelerator, as we approach the cliff.
The idea of “shutting the government down” has always been a threat, designed to make to the point that substantive, systemic change in the federal government’s operation was required. Unfortunately, the elected children mandated (by us) to FIX IT! are too busy posturing for the camera and positioning for reelection, that they STILL have not sat down TOGETHER and developed a sensible framework for how we get from here to where we need to be, because they can’t agree on that either. (It would be nice if they’d agree on the 75% of things they agree on, and ignore the other 25% for a while!) Ultimately, it is that positioning that prevents progress (the opposite of congress) on the real issues. As long as they are beholden to their various “constituencies” for reelection, they will never put our interests above their own. The only answer to that is term limits for ALL.
The (fairly) fresh GOPers may not have completely understood our mandate. They weren’t elected to merely “hold the (party) line,” they were elected to FIX IT! You can’t FIX IT! if you’re standing in the corner yelling at the other corner. Ultimately, you have to address the problems instead of addressing the counter-party.
I, the eternal optimist, believe it can still be done. However, there is NOTHING that is “off the table.” Entitlements MUST be reformed (start by repealing Medicare Part D,) the military complex MUST be downsized, government “programs” MUST be carved, the tax code MUST be simplified, tax rates, both personal and corporate, CAN be raised (and probably should be,) subsidies MUST be slashed, tax loopholes MUST be closed. As others have pointed out, no matter how much you raise income taxes, that alone will NOT solve our deficit spending. The biggest problem with government is that once a program is begun, it (almost) NEVER goes away. EVERY agency and program should have to justify its existence every few years, or it should be eliminated. Too many under- or non-performing programs (Education, anyone?) just get more money thrown at them, without accountability. Stop the madness.
It’s time to stop fixing the blame, and start fixing the problems. (There’s more than enough blame to go around.) Time to ignore “R” and “D.” They’re just “US.” If they don’t FIX IT!, or make significant progress, replace them. At the risk of repeating myself, fire them ALL. Start over. Good day, all!
Mighty Righty
June 30th, 2011
1:48 pm
Joe Mama. You were in the military as was I. Read it and tell me the logic for this. It is in the Obamacare bill. This a small represetive sample of several pages on this subject.
In addition, Obama is on record, on video tape, saying he wanted his own army, equal in strength to the U.S. military.
Obama’s “Ready Reserve Corps”
H.R. 3590 – Patient Protection And Affordable Care Act
H. R. 3590—496 (Page 496)
SEC. 5210. ESTABLISHING A READY RESERVE CORPS.
Section 203 of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S.C. 204)
is amended to read as follows:
‘‘SEC. 203. COMMISSIONED CORPS AND READY RESERVE CORPS.
‘‘(a) ESTABLISHMENT.—
‘‘(1) IN GENERAL.—There shall be in the Service a commissioned
Regular Corps and a Ready Reserve Corps for service
in time of national emergency.
‘‘(2) REQUIREMENT.—All commissioned officers shall be citizens
of the United States and shall be appointed without regard
to the civil-service laws and compensated without regard to
the Classification Act of 1923, as amended.
‘‘(3) APPOINTMENT.—Commissioned officers of the Ready
Reserve Corps shall be appointed by the President and commissioned
officers of the Regular Corps shall be appointed by
the President with the advice and consent of the Senate.
‘‘(4) ACTIVE DUTY.—Commissioned officers of the Ready
Reserve Corps shall at all times be subject to call to active
duty by the Surgeon General, including active duty for the
purpose of training.
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
1:48 pm
Doom — “You fall for it every time. I kinda figured you would respond with a novel or at least a short story arguing everything under the sun. Soooo predictable.”
Translation — “I made a claim I couldn’t support and Joe sunk my battleship. Waaaahhhhhhh.”
Any plans for the weekend, Doom?
josef
June 30th, 2011
1:48 pm
old guy
Shoot…there I was going to watch it and you went and gave away the ending!
oldguy
June 30th, 2011
1:49 pm
So LWM,
If RR said it it is Law?? Can I get that in writing!!
As I have said BFD!!
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
1:50 pm
GG — “Joe Mama?”
It wasn’t me. The s00par-seekr1t handshake requires two hands per shaker, and I use a cane. I’ve only got one hand free.
But I can whack miscreants with it, so maybe I’m one’a those thugs Righty was moaning about.