The utter madness of not raising the debt ceiling

From Reuters:

The United States would immediately have its top-notch credit rating slashed to “selective default” if it misses a debt payment on Aug. 4, Standard & Poor’s managing director John Chambers told Reuters.

Chambers, who is also the chairman of S&P’s sovereign ratings committee, told Reuters on Tuesday that U.S. Treasury bills maturing on Aug. 4 would be rated ‘D’ if the government fails to honor them. Unaffected Treasuries would be downgraded as well, but not as sharply, he said.

“If the U.S. government misses a payment, it goes to D,” Chambers said.

From Ronald Reagan, 1983:

“The full consequence of a default — or even the serious prospect of default — by the United States are impossible to predict and awesome to contemplate. Denigration of the full faith and credit of the United States would have substantial effects on the domestic financial markets and on the value of the dollar in exchange markets. The nation can ill afford to allow such a result. The risks, the costs, the disruptions, and the incalculable damage lead me to but one conclusion: the Senate must pass the legislation before the Congress adjourns.”

From USA Today:

Social Security benefits could be among the first casualties if President Obama and Congress can’t agree to increase the government’s debt limit on Aug. 2, a new analysis shows.

The Bipartisan Policy Center studied Treasury Department receipts and expenditures for August 2009 and 2010 and determined that the government likely would not have enough revenue to pay the full $23 billion payment to Social Security recipients due on Aug. 3.

On that day, according to the analysis, the government would take in about $12 billion in taxes and other revenue but would owe $32 billion, creating a $20 billion shortfall….

“We should be honest with ourselves what this would be like, and the answer is it would be chaotic,” said Jerome Powell, a former Treasury official in the first Bush administration. “There is no way to avoid really serious pain.”


From the Bipartisan Policy Center
, documenting what the federal government could and could not continue to pay for once the debt ceiling is hit and the government is prohibited from borrowing additional funds:

default

Everything above the red line could theoretically be financed, although in practice that would be very difficult because inflows and outflows are so “lumpy,” BPC analysts conclude. (In addition, this is what a “balanced budget” would look like absent additional revenue. To preserve those things above the red line, every expenditure below the red line would have to end.)

In other words, we could continue to pay off bondholders such as China for a few weeks. They could, theoretically, still get paid. But we couldn’t pay our own soldiers. No government salaries would be paid at all, including for those employees who would supposedly be sending out the checks to China and elsewhere.

It is suicidal madness to even contemplate such a step.

– Jay Bookman

842 comments Add your comment

Keep Up the Good Fight!

June 30th, 2011
9:21 am

Any bets on how long until we hear about Senator Obama’s prior vote as evidence of how the country should now be governed?

Lord Help Us

June 30th, 2011
9:23 am

What a ridiculous approach to debt management…

Competent fiscal management would be to manage the nations finances in a way the debt limit extensions are rare instead of annual (or worse).

The GOP’s approach will cost even more independents…the ‘crazy’ has assumed control…

Lord Help Us

June 30th, 2011
9:25 am

Do NOT negotiate with terrorists (or those who use terrorist tactics…)

Brosephus

June 30th, 2011
9:26 am

That’s not right Jay. My GOP representative and his buddies have assured me that nothing bad’s gonna happen. ;)

godless heathen

June 30th, 2011
9:28 am

The President expresses his concern by heading off on another vacation. If he ain’t worried about it, I ain’t worried about it.

Martin the Calvinist

June 30th, 2011
9:28 am

Time for a Balanced Budget Amendment! Politicians then would have to justify tax increases and increases in spending.

Keep Up the Good Fight!

June 30th, 2011
9:29 am

Raters at Moody’s said in a February report that “If debt service were interrupted — however briefly — we would consider downgrading the rating” on U.S. debt. Flirting with such a downgrade would stop our economic recovery in its tracks, derailing the private-sector momentum that’s created 2.1 million jobs over the past 14 months.

BADA BING

June 30th, 2011
9:30 am

Do you see that Inflow # and that Outflow #? I am no Adolf Einstein, but something has to give. That type of math was never taught in any school.

ty webb

June 30th, 2011
9:31 am

…and not to dissappoint…

“The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. … Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that “the buck stops here.” Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.”

Barack Obama(D-Il) 2006

…oh yeah, he voted to not raise the debt ceiling…among many other Democrats…

carlosgvv

June 30th, 2011
9:31 am

Big Business owns the Republicans and Big Business will decide if the debt ceiling is raised or not. Republicans will do whatever they are told by their Corporate Masters. At this time, it is uncertain what Business will decide but you may be certain that money will be the bottom line.

Brosephus

June 30th, 2011
9:32 am

MtC

One big downside to a BBA is that we would lose the flexibility for the gov’t to act in emergency situations. If you can craft a way to avoid that, then a BBA wouldn’t be a half bad idea, in theory.

Peadawg

June 30th, 2011
9:32 am

Agreed, 100%, Jay.

Let’s see if the GOP and Obama and come to a compromise.

Granny Godzilla

June 30th, 2011
9:34 am

Martin the Calvinist

June 30th, 2011
9:28 am
Time for a Balanced Budget Amendment! Politicians then would have to justify tax increases and increases in spending.

Can’t have the Ryan Budget and a Balanced Budget amendment

Pick one.

Peter

June 30th, 2011
9:35 am

The GOP War machine has taken the money due our citizens, and the rich are backing it !

Granny Godzilla

June 30th, 2011
9:36 am

I say cut all Federal Funding to states over and above the amount
the states pay in.

Lotsa’ red states in trouble tho….

Bosch

June 30th, 2011
9:36 am

I had a little sit down with my finance guy the other day and asked him what he thought of all this and doesn’t people realize that stocks would become like null and void. He agreed. He thinks, as I do, it’s all political theater.

BULLSEYE

June 30th, 2011
9:36 am

As Chef Ramsey would say: ” Shut it down!!”

Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)

June 30th, 2011
9:38 am

Well, I’m pretty sure those old geezers, guvmint workers, and soldiers would be willing to take a IOU. It won’t cost nobody any votes. So might as well hold fast and bring this country to its knees to get what we want. If we don’t then in a few years all Those People and the Mexicans will outnumber us so bad we’ll never get what we want. In for a penny, in for a pound, my Daddy always said.

Have a good day everybody.

Brosephus

June 30th, 2011
9:38 am

Bosch

People don’t think about that kinda stuff. They prefer the flashy stuff that demonizes the other party. Screw all the stuff that will really affect us. The GOP will sprinkle pixie dust over everything in 2013 when they gain control over the WH, and everything will be like it never happened. :)

Peadawg

June 30th, 2011
9:40 am

All the blame going around in the 20 comments is exactly what’s wrong right now. This side this, this side that…

kimmer

June 30th, 2011
9:42 am

Here’s a question. Why do we even have a debt ceiling? Financial dealings are not my strong suit but it seems to me that the ceiling is a barrier that was put there for a reason. It isn’t much of a barrier if the only answer every time we get near it is to raise it.

Uncle Jed

June 30th, 2011
9:44 am

“Do NOT negotiate with terrorists (or those who use terrorist tactics…)”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Agreed. The democrat party and associated left-wing radicals need to stop acting like terrorists!

Jimmy62

June 30th, 2011
9:44 am

The Democrats are the ones causing this. If they would be willing to make some serious spending cuts, then the GOP will work with them. But the Dems refuse to do anything except raise taxes. Their supposed cuts are less than useless as far as fixing our economy. When they start acting like there’s a serious problem that cannot be fixed solely by stealing money from rich people, then maybe we can get somewhere. It’s hard to negotiate with a group that thinks spending three times more than you take in is good sense, and thinks that raising taxes to the point where you get maybe 4% more revenue is going to fix anything.

You can call the GOP obstructionist all you want, but it’s the Democrats who refuse to make real cuts or admit that something HAS to be done about taxes and that taking every penny from every rich person in the country still won’t even be close to solving this mess.

Brosephus

June 30th, 2011
9:44 am

Pea

How in the hell do you think we got into such a problem in the first place? We didn’t have a “United, We Fail” party… Until somebody decides to own up to their part in this crap, it will continue. Everyone’s at fault in my book, both parties AND the people who elected them.

Jimmy62

June 30th, 2011
9:45 am

Kimmer: I agree. But then politicians, no matter their party, tend to think they are above such petty concerns as laws. Or were you not paying attention when Obama literally stole GM and Chrysler from their owners to give the companies to their unions?

ByteMe

June 30th, 2011
9:45 am

It is suicidal madness to even contemplate such a step.

Of course. Which is why the armchair poutragers think it’s a great idea.

Jay, you didn’t go far enough in the analysis, though. Many pension funds would have to immediately dump their T-bills, because they would no longer have a high enough rating. Banks would not be able to hold them as part of their asset mix, because they would not have high enough rating (because it would increase the percent they’d have to hold against them). Dump the T-bills all at once and the rate they pay would immediately go up a huge amount (the price goes down, the rate goes up).

General interest rates, which are based against the T-bill, would immediately jump, forcing ARMs to reset to a higher level, putting more people out of their houses.

So much political foolishness, so little brains. When did reality become such a subjective thing for so many people?

Brosephus

June 30th, 2011
9:45 am

The Democrats are the ones causing this. If they would be willing to make some serious spending cuts, then the GOP will work with them. But the Dems refuse to do anything except raise taxes.

Not intended to be a factual statement. Even Rep. Cantor has stated that they have agreed on $2 Trillion in cuts over a period of time. He quickly pulled a Forrest Gump when it was time to agree on revenue issues.

getalife

June 30th, 2011
9:47 am

It is a tea party created issue to commit economic suicide.

The gop want to end Medicare and SS so they want to default.

corporate media, Wall Street and the coc are helping the gop.

Uncle Jed

June 30th, 2011
9:47 am

“I say cut all Federal Funding to states over and above the amount
the states pay in.”
+++++++++++++++++
Why have a federal government; one which imposes mandates on states with little regard for the financing of same? I bet Texas and Arizona would be glad to see the federal government get out of their way, thus allowing for more effective border control, as an example.

Peter

June 30th, 2011
9:48 am

$4Trillion spent on Wars, and Tax cuts for the Rich at the same time…..WOW we are in debt ?

Gosh who would have thought that could happen ?

NOT THE GOP !!!!!!!

Brosephus

June 30th, 2011
9:52 am

UJ

The problem with the whole border control issue is that unless they seccede, the fed will always have jurisdiction because of immigration and national security issues. The easiest way to get the border security they’re demanding is to put up the money to hire the personnel to do it.

Normal

June 30th, 2011
9:52 am

Bottom line: The GOP will blink because their Wall Street bosses will tell them so.

Uncle Jed

June 30th, 2011
9:53 am

“corporate media, Wall Street and the coc are helping the gop.”
+++++++++++++++

I think it can be demonstrated that the first two legs of your milking stool have lended great support to the leftwing side of the equation. I have no idea what “coc” is meant to represent, unless maybe the Canada Opera Company.

Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)

June 30th, 2011
9:53 am

The utter madness of avoiding serious cuts is of greater madness than not raising the debt ceiling. There is still plenty of money to pay interest only and avoid default until Obama and the Democrats finally listen to the will of the people.

Left wing management

June 30th, 2011
9:54 am

Jooblome: “Considering that the debt ceiling has been raised 74 times since 1961 and ten times since 2001, this debate seems like contrived crap.”

Ehhhr you go! Now that’s what I’m talking about.

You’re spot on, Jooblome!

Morning Southies! How ya doin ?

getalife

June 30th, 2011
9:54 am

Peter,

Add in the costs of the w collapse and here we are.

We lost a decade of growth but cons want to finish off our country now.

If they win this cycle, the gop will default.

Uncle Jed

June 30th, 2011
9:57 am

“The easiest way to get the border security they’re demanding is to put up the money to hire the personnel to do it.”
++++++++++++++++++++++
You can’t have it both ways. Bro. If the states put up the money to support something only the feds can control and oversee, which is actually the present day case as the fed creates no money, where is the incentive to give more to a group that hasn’t performed very well historically?!?

Joe Mama

June 30th, 2011
9:57 am

Jimmy62 — “The Democrats are the ones causing this. If they would be willing to make some serious spending cuts, then the GOP will work with them.”

Bullspit. The Democrats have agreed to $2T in spending cuts, have agreed to work on finding more to cut and the GOP STILL won’t consider revenue increases of any kind. You are just plain wrong on this point.

“But the Dems refuse to do anything except raise taxes.”

Bullspit. Again, the Democrats have agreed to $2T in spending cuts and are looking for more. You are just plain wrong.

Martin the Calvinist

June 30th, 2011
9:58 am

Dear granny, don’t paint me with a broad brush, I’ve never said the Ryan Budget plan was one I advocated, I want a balanced budget amendment. His budget is better than the others proposed, but its only a start.

Jay

June 30th, 2011
9:58 am

Mr. Heywood, if you do not cease posting under variants of that name, you will be banned from posting under any name whatsoever.

Capice?

getalife

June 30th, 2011
9:58 am

Yeah Del.

After your party ran up 4 trillion on wars and more trillions on their collapse, they say they are finally listening to you.

Congrats Del.

Uncle Jed

June 30th, 2011
10:00 am

A question: Is utter madness caused by too many calves and too few teats?

Jay

June 30th, 2011
10:01 am

When did reality become such a subjective thing for so many people?

Good post, Byte, but I’d alter that sentence a bit: “When did reality become an optional thing for so many people?”

BADA BING

June 30th, 2011
10:01 am

The gov’t is like Imelda Marcos. Enough shoes already!!

@@

June 30th, 2011
10:03 am

jay, never sit in the political theater’s front row. Not only will it leave you unable to turn your head from left to right, it’ll ruin your vision.

Start at the top of that list and cut all the way down.

Granny Godzilla

June 30th, 2011
10:04 am

Martin

Which do you prefer?

The Ryan Budget OR the balanaced budget amendment?

jt

June 30th, 2011
10:04 am

” No government salaries would be paid at all, including for those employees ”
.
Sounds like a winner to me.
The Back of the American worker deserves a well deserved rest.
.
LIBERTY .

Left wing management

June 30th, 2011
10:05 am

And why are we even HAVING this farcical conversation?

Pop quiz:

Barring a huge upset, Republicans will take control of at least one house of Congress next week.

How worried should we be by that prospect?

Not very, say some pundits. After all, the last time Republicans controlled Congress while a Democrat lived in the White House was the period from the beginning of 1995 to the end of 2000. And people remember that era as a good time, a time of rapid job creation and responsible budgets. Can we hope for a similar experience now?

No, we can’t. This is going to be terrible. In fact, future historians will probably look back at the 2010 election as a catastrophe for America, one that condemned the nation to years of political chaos and economic weakness. – Paul Krugman, Oct. 29, 2010

That’s democracy in action for you.

Read more: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/outlook/7270540.html#ixzz1Qlg8fZqQ

Fletch

June 30th, 2011
10:05 am

Well hell, just take the wars off the books and encourage Americans to shop til they drop, maybe throw in a little tax incentive for anything that gets less than 5 mpg. There, problem solved.

Gordon

June 30th, 2011
10:06 am

“Millionares and Billionaires”, “Kids vs. Corporate Jets”, etc. etc.

Cut spending now, and we’ll raise taxes once the economy gets going. We’ve tried raising taxes with the promise of cutting spending, but it hasn’t turned out well no matter who is in control.

The party is over. The bills are now due.

Brosephus

June 30th, 2011
10:06 am

UJ

Where do you think the money for the fed comes from in the first place?? I see no reason that border states could not come together to work a funding arrangement to benefit border security for their states. Does the federal government not already execute little budget nuggets for other states in relation to pet programs? Border security could be moved from DHS to the Defense budget for one. My main point is that people are yelling they’re taxed enough one minute, and then they’re yelling they want more border security the next. If you want it, it will not be free. It has to be paid for, so either you pay for it or you don’t really want it.

ByteMe

June 30th, 2011
10:07 am

Jay, I accept your edits :)

BADA BING

June 30th, 2011
10:09 am

Why raise the ceiling? Let us lower the floor. And by that, I mean to start at the ground floor and rebuild this bloated gov’t into a lean, pork -free institution that can rebuild our economy.

Left wing management

June 30th, 2011
10:09 am

Godon: “We’ve tried raising taxes with the promise of cutting spending, but it hasn’t turned out well no matter who is in control.”

Uh, Gord, if you raise taxes then ’spending’ doesn’t have quite the same budgetary impact any more does it? You know, mathematically speaking ..

ByteMe

June 30th, 2011
10:10 am

Cut spending now, and we’ll raise taxes once the economy gets going. We’ve tried raising taxes with the promise of cutting spending

Ah, Gordon, you so have it backward.

We’ve tried lowering taxes with the promise of increased revenue and that hasn’t worked at all.

We’ve increased spending to counter bad times — like many economists believe we should — but forgot to cut back spending in good times — also like those same economists believe we should have done.

If you really think anyone will trust the “cut all entitlements” group to keep their word that they will some day allow tax revenues to go up, you’re just drinkin’ the Kool-Aid.

jt

June 30th, 2011
10:10 am

What idiot would join the Border Patrol when they know that the ATF is gunning for them?

Martin the Calvinist

June 30th, 2011
10:11 am

Balanced Budget Amendment, granny g. But I’m also saying we shouldn’t be spending 3.4 to 3.6 trillion either. A balanced budget should be going hand to hand with a smaller federal government. NOT a huge one like the one started in the 1960’s or even the 1930’s. Gotta go to work for now. Gotta pay for those twins the Lord has blessed my family of four with. They are coming in Feb 2012!

getalife

June 30th, 2011
10:11 am

I always go back to the gop’s response to the collapse because it did not pass the smell test.

They voted no and acted like it was not a problem.

It is like it was their plan all along.

A plan to default on the debt.

Our cons will reward them with their votes for this plan.

It is a radical unpatriotic position but we have seen the right’s true patriotism when they lose.

Gordon

June 30th, 2011
10:13 am

LWM @10:09,

“… if you raise taxes then ’spending’ doesn’t have quite the same budgetary impact any more does it? You know, mathematically speaking ..”

You would think so, wouldn’t you? But that’s not how it has worked in Washington all these years. Everytime they get an extra buck, the spend a buck and a half. Just look at revenue – it goes up every year. Yet we have a $14 trillion debt and $1.4 trillion deficit. Politicians don’t apply extra revenue to the deficit, they spend it. Both sides.

BULLSEYE

June 30th, 2011
10:16 am

Send everyone a $300.00 check and the problem is solved.

Atlas Shrugging

June 30th, 2011
10:16 am

I just learned that this raise the budget limit lunacy is so serious Obozo is considering cancelling a fund raiser.

Uncle Jed

June 30th, 2011
10:17 am

“After your party ran up 4 trillion on wars and more trillions on their collapse, they say they are finally listening to you.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Spending originates in congress, right? Did the Bush administration have a fillibuster-proof majority? I just don’t recall.

mm

June 30th, 2011
10:17 am

“Big Business owns the Republicans and Big Business will decide if the debt ceiling is raised or not. Republicans will do whatever they are told by their Corporate Masters.”

They’ve already been told by Wall St., the Chamber of Commerce, etc. to raise the debt limit. They’re all afraid of the tea smokers.

“You can call the GOP obstructionist all you want, but it’s the Democrats who refuse to make real cuts”

That is a BS lie and you know it (or maybe you’ve been watching too much Fox News).

The Dems have agreed to 2 trillion in cuts. The GOP has agreed to nothing.

This has been going on for over 2 years now. The GOP asks for concessions, the Dems cave, then the GOP moves the goalpost. Any halfwitted fool can see this.

Granny Godzilla

June 30th, 2011
10:18 am

How about this….

Raise taxes now, and for every percentage point the unemployment rate drops so does the tax.

Joe Mama

June 30th, 2011
10:19 am

ByteMe — “Many pension funds would have to immediately dump their T-bills, because they would no longer have a high enough rating. Banks would not be able to hold them as part of their asset mix, because they would not have high enough rating (because it would increase the percent they’d have to hold against them). Dump the T-bills all at once and the rate they pay would immediately go up a huge amount (the price goes down, the rate goes up).”

“General interest rates, which are based against the T-bill, would immediately jump, forcing ARMs to reset to a higher level, putting more people out of their houses.”

These are all *excellent* points, IMO, and certainly something that our conservative friends and associates need to read and think about. Failing to increase the debt ceiling at this time would certainly have immediate, significant and possibly catastrophic consequences.

Atlas Shrugging

June 30th, 2011
10:20 am

Half witted fool is that an oxymoron for community organizer?

Left wing management

June 30th, 2011
10:20 am

Gordon: “Everytime they get an extra buck, the spend a buck and a half. Just look at revenue – it goes up every year. Yet we have a $14 trillion debt and $1.4 trillion deficit.

Do we live in a historical vacuum, Gordon? What significant world event occurred in 2007-8? Do you realize that that event has had a calamitous impact on our budget situation because it was like someone took a crowbar to the gut of the economy, making it fall to its knees and double over?

“Politicians don’t apply extra revenue to the deficit, they spend it”

But Gordon, you’re simply equating ’spending’ with waste. Why you doin that? Turn off the Hannity and Limbaugh son, it’s bad for the brain! If you show me your own personal monthly cash outflow, I might be able to trim here or there, but you’re spending things for a reason. In other words, it’s not ‘waste’. It’s what you need.

Adam

June 30th, 2011
10:20 am

Peadawg: Well, when you have one side that negotiates in good faith, is willing to put both revenues and spending on the table, and blames the other side for not doing the same…. well, apparently the only way for that other side to look good is to put the same blame back, even if it’s not true.

One side: Both are on the table
Another side: Only one thing is on the table

That’s what’s really going on. And if you can’t work out which side is which, in REALITY, then you’re not really paying attention.

To be fair, I think Boehner wants to make a deal but then you have children like Cantor who screw things up by taking a pledge to a man more seriously than a pledge to uphold the Constitution.

JB

June 30th, 2011
10:20 am

From Obama’s presser: Over 17,000 average, mostly blue collar workers work in the Corporate aircraft industry. Yey, this president continues to use class warfare to make his points. you would think we would have learned our lesson from history when DEMOCRATS put a big tax on Yachts and big boats. All it did was put hard working AMERICANS out of work, didn’t phase the rich. Rich people, and the opportunity to get rich in this country is what makes her great. Most Americans work for rich people. Rich people pay just about ALL the taxes now. I just don’t get it( I do, put can’t tell it all here). Bottom line, working Americans need rich people, and are better off when they get richer. Get a clue people. PS: I’m not rich.

Uncle Jed

June 30th, 2011
10:21 am

“The gov’t is like Imelda Marcos. Enough shoes already!!”
++++++++++++
Good one :-)

The Gipper

June 30th, 2011
10:21 am

There you go again, Jay, trying to scare the Republicans. Elect me and I’ll cut taxes and bring about world peace. Besides, I’m the best chance the GOP has at getting into the White House. Can you dig it. Is that a yes. Then dig me up and prop me up on stage. Maybe hire that Jeff Dunham fellow to help re-animate me.

Uncle Jed

June 30th, 2011
10:23 am

“How about this….

Raise taxes now, and for every percentage point the unemployment rate drops so does the tax.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Fool me once….
The wouldn’t reduce the taxes because they would have implemented more entitlements.

retired early

June 30th, 2011
10:23 am

The “big boys” will not allow their GOP “puppets” to cause a financial meltdown. They have an even bigger piece of the pie to lose than most of us do. I would be surprised if these Wall Street CEO’s and the Chamber of Commerce, representing the large business lobby are not giving them an “ear full” as we speak. The T Party leaders are delusional if they think they have control of these GOP Congressmen and if they don’t figure it out soon….The House will have a lot of “one term and gone” Representatives.
It is always, all about the money; therefore, Obama will have some strange bedfellows supporting him on this issue….The National Chamber of Commerce, for one.

Fletch

June 30th, 2011
10:23 am

Joe Mama – “Failing to increase the debt ceiling at this time would certainly have immediate, significant and possibly catastrophic consequences.”

Or maybe not. I defer to all the Stimulus/Bailout/Tarp naysayers who tout the same old line of “There was no need for stimulus, it was a plot to start a government takeover”. Maybe America just needs to stick it’s finger in the socket to see if it really will get shocked.

Adam

June 30th, 2011
10:23 am

ByteMe: If you really think anyone will trust the “cut all entitlements” group to keep their word that they will some day allow tax revenues to go up, you’re just drinkin’ the Kool-Aid.

Exactly. Tax revenue has to be part of any spending cut deal or else it just won’t happen. Then you’ll get spending cuts that do nothing except cut for the sake of cutting.

In other words, hey, we agree that you need to cut some things. Here are the things we support cutting. Now, if you agree to some tax revenue adjustments, like closing loopholes, then we will put together a deal. You won’t get out votes on cuts alone, because we KNOW you won’t increase taxes in any small way unless we do them in the SAME DEAL.

1811/1801 - 0311/0317

June 30th, 2011
10:24 am

“The utter madness of not raising the debt ceiling”

THE UTTER MADNESS OF NOT REDUCING THE DEBT.

Adam

June 30th, 2011
10:25 am

JB: Rich people pay just about ALL the taxes now.

Not intended to be a Factual Statement.

See Jay’s post a few posts back if you don’t believe me. Hint: Payroll taxes

JB

June 30th, 2011
10:25 am

Jeff Sessions from Alabama said from the floor this morning that they ought to put the debt debate on TV………For ALL to hear. YES they should.

Fletch

June 30th, 2011
10:26 am

JB – “Bottom line, working Americans need rich people, and are better off when they get richer. Get a clue people. PS: I’m not rich”

As evidenced in your post. Now, get back in line and row with the others!!!

Uncle Jed

June 30th, 2011
10:26 am

Bro:
“Where do you think the money for the fed comes from in the first place??”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I think I already made clear that I understood it was not from the federal government. I think we are in some agreement here, but why would only the border states be expected to pick up the lion’s share of the tab, when it is the entire country’s borders being breached?

Keep Up the Good Fight!

June 30th, 2011
10:27 am

Again…. Its apparent that we must be fat because we over eat not under exercise. Why in the past we have tried more exercise before and failed to lose weight. So this time, its clear that we are fat and have to go immediately on a starvation diet. Then and only then when we have proven that we will lose weight that way, then we can consider exercising more. I am sure we’ll lose weight. There is absolutely no reason that we have to consider a diet and more exercise together to stop weight gain and to lose the belly we already have. The belly will disappear if we starve. Its healthy too.

getalife

June 30th, 2011
10:28 am

Too bad the cons are not patriotic like the Defense Secretary Gates.

He does not want to quit on the debt.

He is not a quitter like our cons.

Uncle Jed

June 30th, 2011
10:28 am

“See Jay’s post a few posts back if you don’t believe me. Hint: Payroll taxes”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Another Hint: tax credits; direct cash handouts; various social programs; NET versus GROSS.

JB

June 30th, 2011
10:29 am

I’d agree to one Tax increase…………The millions of Americans NOT PAYING ONE DIME to get a little skin in the game. Hell, how about 300 bucks if you make 30,000. I know you feel like you’re over taxed now on the 2 packs of cigs a day and the 12 pack you buy everyday, but everyone pays that! How bout a little skin in the game !

Gordon

June 30th, 2011
10:29 am

LWM @10:20

” In other words, it’s not ‘waste’. It’s what you need.”

I guess this is what is at the heart of our disagreement, and what is at the heart of most disagreements between liberals and conservatives. What is the function of the federal government? How much dependency is created and how much is eliminated, in the long term, by entitlement programs? Is the lack of money and resources the true problem, or merely symptom of a larger problem? Reasonable people can disagree over such questions. What I find it hard to believe people disagree about is that our government spends WAY more than it should, and spending other people’s money (the “rich”, the next generation) is very addictive. It WILL end, one way or another.

For the record, I’m not your “son” and I don’t listen to Hannity or Limbaugh.

1811/1801 - 0311/0317

June 30th, 2011
10:30 am

Well, there you go ………. what else do you expect from a closet Muslim.

Headline: “The U.S. has decided to formally resume contact with Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood group – which does not recognize Israel – in a move that could further alienate some Jewish voters already skeptical of President Barack Obama, it was reported.”

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0611/58094.html#ixzz1QlmiBywy

Doggone/GA

June 30th, 2011
10:31 am

“The millions of Americans NOT PAYING ONE DIME to get a little skin in the game”

Try again and see if you can get it right. Your despised group of Americans doesn’t exist.

JohnnyReb

June 30th, 2011
10:32 am

From The Heritage Organization: Yesterday, the Bipartisan Research Council released a Debt Ceiling Analysis that showed even if the August 2 deadline is missed, the federal government would still have enough revenue to pay all interest on Treasury securities (thus avoiding default), all Social Security obligations, all Medicare and Medicaid obligations, all Defense contractor bills, all Veterans payments, all active duty troops, and still have almost $7 billion left over for other items. End.

The Left continues their scare tactics. If there was not such a huge number of uniformed, quick to jump to conclusion Americans, their tactics would be hilarious. Instead, they are pathetically scary.

1811/1801 - 0311/0317

June 30th, 2011
10:32 am

Oh my goodness, if this were Palin or Bachmann the libeal news media would be going NUTS !

Headline: “WASHINGTON — They grow up so fast. But not that fast, Mr. President.

In a news conference Wednesday, President Barack Obama twice referred to his oldest daughter, Malia, as being 13 years old.

Not quite. She’s 12.”

Adam

June 30th, 2011
10:32 am

Keep Up: And if we happen to not follow through with our promise to eat less, because that just darn depresses us, then we’ll just have to try it again.

Fletch

June 30th, 2011
10:33 am

Doggone/GA – “Try again and see if you can get it right. Your despised group of Americans doesn’t exist.”

Now Now, JB might simply be referring to the Hedge Fund Manager class, in which case I must agree with him.

Left wing management

June 30th, 2011
10:33 am

Gordon: “I guess this is what is at the heart of our disagreement, and what is at the heart of most disagreements between liberals and conservatives”

What’s a ‘liberal’ ?

I seem to recall we actually had a budget SURPLUS in the past decade or so, don’t you? A surplus that was promptly squandered.

Now, what’s a ‘liberal”, Gord?

retired early

June 30th, 2011
10:33 am

MM

It is truly frustrating to think that had Obama not caved on the “Bush tax cuts” to appease the GOP…we would be having a conversation, mostly, about what to cut…along with eliminating the “corporate wealth fare” tax credits. Damn, I hate that he gave in to them.

AmVet

June 30th, 2011
10:34 am

Ha! Backdoor death panels brought to you by the Party of NO!

People are entitled to their own opinion,s jut not their own facts – i.e., that second 9:44. (For the sake of children, how many times must this lie be buried?!)

Because it is futile to expect the correct usage of our native language by some of the serial offenders, I will no longer point out the lunacy of certain fave words and phrases.

They will simply get a Gong Show GONG!

So for “…stealing money from rich people…” – GONG!

“…when Obama literally stole GM and Chrysler from their owners…” – GONG!!

“Rich people pay just about ALL the taxes now.” – GONG.

and finally…

“Half witted fool is that an oxymoron for community organizer?” – THUD.

(The term is euphemism, not oxymoron, you oxy…)

getalife

June 30th, 2011
10:34 am

When the going gets tough, the gop want to cut and run from their debts.

Economic cowards.

El Jefe

June 30th, 2011
10:34 am

It is funny, how Obama wants CEO’s to pay more for their Corporate aircraft when he gave them the tax break as part of the first stimulus.

Adam

June 30th, 2011
10:34 am

In reference to Scout’s post, I now add “She’s 13 years old” to the list of things that don’t help your argument and only inflate your conservative ego. Remember, other things on this list include “57 states,” “Marine corpse,” and “teleprompter.”

1811/1801 - 0311/0317

June 30th, 2011
10:35 am

Well, here you go. Another liberal “lock-nut” DemoNcrat sworn to uphold the Constitution:

Headline: “Durbin: Illegal Alien Could Be Our Future President”

“After using illegal immigrants as props to push the DREAM Act, Sen. Durbin (D-IL) made the following statement at a Senate committee hearing:

“When I look around this room, I see America’s future. Our doctors, our teachers, our nurses, our engineers, our scientists, our soldiers, our Congressman, our Senators and maybe our President.”

However, Article 2, Section 1, Clause 5 of the Constitution says: “No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President.”

Granny Godzilla

June 30th, 2011
10:35 am

“Bottom line, working Americans need rich people, and are better off when they get richer.”

Actually more accurate would be

“Bottom line, working Americans need rich people,and rich people need working Americans just as much and are both better off when they all get richer.”

And rich folks need to think about just how many working Americans there are and perhaps re-read Les Miserables.

ragnar danneskjold

June 30th, 2011
10:36 am

Good morning all. “Utter madness” is not “failure to obtain a new credit card” – it is “wasteful spending when one does not have the money.”

The leftists have persuaded themselves that they can stimulate the economy by taking more funds away from the private economy, and spending the money to hire more regulators. Sure, that will make employers wish to expand. In a rational world, a rational leader would reduce the restrictive element of government, and allow the private economy to grow. But we are not in a rational time here, rather we have leaders who wish to ration.