Criminal investigation into torture deaths begins
“Attorney General Eric Holder said Thursday he has ordered a full criminal investigation into the deaths of two prisoners who were interrogated by the Central Intelligence Agency in the years following the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorism attacks.
The move is likely to restart the partisan fight over Bush-era detainee treatment that Democrats have called torture.
Mr. Holder said he accepted the recommendations of John Durham, a prosecutor from Connecticut, who has been examining the treatment of CIA detainees and studying whether CIA interrogations exceeded methods allowed under legal guidance provided at the time by the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel.
Justice Department prosecutors led by Mr. Durham have been using a grand jury in Alexandria, Va., to investigate the death of Gul Rahman at a CIA prison called the Salt Pit in Afghanistan in 2002, as well as the death of Manadel al Jamadi at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq in 2003, according to a person familiar with the matter.
Holder had previously made it clear that the Justice Department would not prosecute any intelligence officer “who acted in good faith and within the scope of the legal guidance given by the Office of Legal Counsel regarding the interrogation of detainees.” In other words, if they abided by the standards and legal guidance set by their superiors — however flawed, immoral and illegal those standards and legal guidance might be — they would not be prosecuted.
I think that’s appropriate and necessary. If we’re not going to prosecute the people at the top who created the torture policy — and clearly we’re not — then we sure as hell shouldn’t prosecute the lowly employees who carried that policy out.
However, if U.S. officials tortured individuals to the point of death, well, that is not the country to which I pledge allegiance, and was not within the bounds of any standards that have so far been made public. We are Americans and Americans aren’t supposed to do that kind of thing. The people we fight may do those things; that’s one reason we fight them.
But we don’t. Or at least we’re not supposed to.
– Jay Bookman
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421 comments Add your comment
Left wing management
June 30th, 2011
4:30 pm
It’s all the libruls fault
josef
June 30th, 2011
4:32 pm
And while we’re at it, Eric, habeas corpus, quo vadis…not to beat a dead horse…
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
4:33 pm
Absolutely investigate and prosecute all involved to the TOP!….we ARE SUPPOSE to be held to our own higher standards on that.
josef
June 30th, 2011
4:34 pm
“In other words, if they abided by the standards and legal guidance set by their superiors — however flawed, immoral and illegal those standards and legal guidance might be — they would not be prosecuted”
The Nurnberg defense, eh?
Dave R.
June 30th, 2011
4:35 pm
One man’s torture is another man’s enhanced interrogation techniques.
Don’t know which one this is, but Holder is STILL the worst excuse for an Attorney General we’ve had since John Ashcroft and John Mitchell.
@@
June 30th, 2011
4:36 pm
Those last three sentences read like something Bosch would submit.
We are Americans and Americans aren’t supposed to do that kind of thing. The people we fight may do those things; that’s one reason we fight them.
But we don’t. Or at least we’re not supposed to.
Has anybody seen RW? Today’s his birthday.
Happy Birthday, RW….wherever you are.
Brad Steel
June 30th, 2011
4:37 pm
It’s enhanced interrogation. There is no torture.
Real Scooter
June 30th, 2011
4:41 pm
It’s all the libruls fault
You don’t have to keep saying that LWM,I believe you!
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
4:41 pm
Were any of our other veteran posters involved in military intelligence, particularly HUMINT?
I was Army Signal Corps, so the only people we spoke to were miles away.
Left wing management
June 30th, 2011
4:43 pm
josef: “The Nurnberg defense, eh?”
Exactly. But we have to play fair, we’re Democrats after all.
Logical Dude
June 30th, 2011
4:44 pm
Jay says: If we’re not going to prosecute the people at the top who created the torture policy — and clearly we’re not — then we sure as hell shouldn’t prosecute the lowly employees who carried that policy out.
Because that line likely goes up to Cheney and Bush.
Left wing management
June 30th, 2011
4:45 pm
By refusing to play ruthless hardball politics, Democrats ensure endless ruthless hardball politics.
How might they have played ruthless hardball politics? Oh for starters by prosecuting Karl Rove and other Bush administration officials.
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
June 30th, 2011
4:45 pm
Well, I see they found out how the inmates down at the Fulton County jail are getting the drugs and the weapons. I guess the folks down there figured it was better to cut out the middle man and just do the dealing theirself. I wish I could of seen those jailers doing the Perp Walk when the FBI showed up at Rice Street this a.m.
Anyhow, sometimes when the CIA questions a prisoner he dies. You know, we all got to go sometime. Besides, what’s another Towelhead in this world full of them? Give the people that done it a gold watch and a nice pension. I guess some of them questions are real hard ones.
I know all the godly Conservatives on this blog will be standing up for the CIA on this one. Especially Scout. He beleives the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim. Besides, it was probly just a little love tap.
Have a good p.m. everybody.
Logical Dude
June 30th, 2011
4:45 pm
We are Americans and Americans aren’t supposed to do that kind of thing. The people we fight may do those things; that’s one reason we fight them.
(repeated line)
Can I get an AMEN?
josef
June 30th, 2011
4:46 pm
DAVE
Holder makes John Mitchell look like Patty Jolly Goodfun…the man is dangerous. He scares the bee-jesus out of me…
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
4:47 pm
One man’s torture is another man’s enhanced interrogation techniques
And by either name, torture and unlawful.
Real Scooter
June 30th, 2011
4:47 pm
Well I guess it’s ok if Holder wants to dig up old bones.At least it takes away some of his time from faultsly accusing American gun dealers of supplying drug cartels. The guy is a joke that ain’t funny.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
4:47 pm
Cut off the head and the body will die. I say go for the top.
Dave R.
June 30th, 2011
4:49 pm
josef, if he can scare the bee-jesus out of you, think of what he does to ME!
Left wing management
June 30th, 2011
4:49 pm
Logical Dude: “Because that line likely goes up to Cheney and Bush.”
Which would have ensured an unprecedented firestorm of ideological bloodletting and roiling chaos all around, lasting all through Obama’s administration. Which of course would have been just terrible compared to the peace and quiet we’ve seen.
Left wing management
June 30th, 2011
4:51 pm
One man’s torture is another man’s enhanced interrogation techniques
Yep, and one man’s genocide is another man’s heroically acquired final solution.
Logical Dude
June 30th, 2011
4:52 pm
LWM:
“Which would have ensured an unprecedented firestorm of ideological bloodletting ”
I know, I know. . . but if you want to go to who actually approved, ordered, and made policy. . .
Uncle Jed
June 30th, 2011
4:53 pm
March 01, 2011
Black Panther case focus demeans ‘my people’
Attorney General Eric Holder finally got fed up Tuesday with claims that the Justice Department went easy in a voting rights case against members of the New Black Panther Party because they are African American.
Holder’s frustration over the criticism became evident during a House Appropriations subcommittee hearing as Rep. John Culberson (R-Texas) accused the Justice Department of failing to cooperate with a Civil Rights Commission investigation into the handling of the 2008 incident in which Black Panthers in intimidating outfits and wielding a club stood outside a polling place in Philadelphia.
The Attorney General seemed to take personal offense at a comment Culberson read in which former Democratic activist Bartle Bull called the incident the most serious act of voter intimidation he had witnessed in his career
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Investigating these CIA officers demeans my people. One group tried to circumvent the constitutional rights of voters; the other group tried to circumvent terroists. Piteeful.
Dave R.
June 30th, 2011
4:54 pm
“Yep, and one man’s genocide is another man’s heroically acquired final solution.”
Which is why we are a nation of LAWS, and not of MEN, and why that analogy not only does not apply, but is distasteful to use, LWM
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
4:54 pm
Logical Dude — “Jay says: If we’re not going to prosecute the people at the top who created the torture policy — and clearly we’re not — then we sure as hell shouldn’t prosecute the lowly employees who carried that policy out.”
Corollary — if the guys who carried the policy out are guilty, then the guys who promulgated and approved the policy are also guilty.
There’s a saying in the military — “s**t rolls downhill.” That is to say that when something gets screwed up, the leadership goes looking for the responsible parties — often junior enlisted men or NCOs — and chews them out.
But there’s another saying — “heat rises.” And THAT is to say that when junior guys were following orders — but the orders or policy were screwy — then whoever ISSUED that policy is the one who’s going to catch hell.
In this case, if the s**t rolls downhill, then I think the heat should rise.
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
4:55 pm
George Bush will forever live with a legacy of disgrace.
He is the ONLY president in our long history who got us added to the list that includes Afghanistan, China, Egypt, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Malaysia, Morocco, Nepal, North Korea, Pakistan, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Uganda, and Uzbekistan.
And you Bushbots don’t even care.
Dave R.
June 30th, 2011
4:57 pm
AmVet, while I do not ever defend GWB, being added to a list of nations as listed above, by a list of nations that are largely a collection of tin-pot dictatorships, does tend to invalidate the addition somewhat.
Left wing management
June 30th, 2011
4:58 pm
Dave R.: “Which is why we are a nation of LAWS, and not of MEN, and why that analogy not only does not apply, but is distasteful to use”
Unless those men wink that a little rough stuff is OK down in the dungeons where nobody can see.
chuck
June 30th, 2011
5:00 pm
Jay, It seems to me that you are assuming an awful lot here. Is there any evidence that they died AS A RESULT OF “TORTURE”? I don’t think so, yet the title of your piece seems to assume that. I know it’s kind of against your standards to presume innocence for people acting in a CONSERVATIVE administration, but I think we owe them that considering that the information gained from these interrogations have saved possibly thousands of AMERICAN LIVES.
Dave R.
June 30th, 2011
5:00 pm
“Unless those men wink that a little rough stuff is OK down in the dungeons where nobody can see.”
And you have first-hand knowledge of this – how?
Dusty
June 30th, 2011
5:01 pm
For goodness sake, “nobody will be prosecuted” But this administration will make Bush look bad if it is the last thing they do. Smear the GOP while OBAMA runs his political driive for reelection.
Probably going to cost millions to do it. But it is WORTHWHILE (to Democrats) so Bookman says as he wipes away the tears. .
In the meantime we have every law in the book against torture. Holder knows it. The military know it. The world knows it. Amnesty knows it. Everybody knows it. The terrorists don’t give a HOOT!! Nor do the drug cartels!
I suggest that Holder work on the terrorists and the cartels before he starts on the American military who already know the rules and are risking their lives to perform as ordered.. Nobody here approves of torture unless under the most extreme set of circumstances and even then it is only live or die for many.
I dislike the extreme pretenses that go on here, like digging up old bones to bark over and acting like PollyAnna the perfect. What a crock!!.
Logical Dude
June 30th, 2011
5:02 pm
When Valerie Plame was outed by the “White House” , Scooter was the fall guy. (not you Scooter, I mean Scooter LIbby)
Of course, it comes out that yes, Cheney and Bush discussed it and felt the correct response to Plame’s husbands article about Iraq’s nuclear material was to just out Plame. They were thinking politically and not reality.
So yes, (my opinion) is that a similar situation happened with “enhanced interrogation”. Cheney – that CIA dude – mentions to Bush, who agrees that any information extraction method is okay. The Law? Oh, we’ll just have a lawyer give us an “out” by saying it’s “legal.”
But they missed the part about winning the hearts and minds of those we are trying to liberate. We MUST be the better option or we lose. Attack a 5 star hotel like the Taliban? They will lose the hearts and minds battle. Help the people by building homes and infrastructure? That will win the hearts and minds. Harshly treat prisoners? That will lose the hearts and minds. Treat Prisoners well, even if they are guilty? That will win the hearts and minds, because there will be some innocent prisoners that will come back out for you or against you. And you want the innocent FOR you.
We have to repair the damage that our use of torture has done to us. We are better than that. Most of the world knows it, but the part of the world still making that decision? They only see the bad part of us. We have to show them we will stand against the bad, and show justice.
Hearts and Minds wins these types of battles, not just armour and bullets.
josef
June 30th, 2011
5:03 pm
“I think that’s appropriate and necessary. If we’re not going to prosecute the people at the top who created the torture policy — and clearly we’re not — then we sure as hell shouldn’t prosecute the lowly employees who carried that policy out.”
Then why, pray tell, are we doing it? We can do without these dictatorship show trials. And you know as well as anybody else that some poor shmo down at the bottom, “just following orders” will be scapegoated and those responsible for issuing the order will get by Scot free. This is hypocracy of the highest order. At the risk of falling too crassly into the vulgar, “either sh*t or get off the pot.”
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
5:03 pm
Holder wastes time and resource on what’s nothing more than political theater. Of course that’s what the Obama administration is all about since they lack the ability to govern.
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
5:06 pm
Chuck — ” I know it’s kind of against your standards to presume innocence for people acting in a CONSERVATIVE administration, but I think we owe them that considering that the information gained from these interrogations have saved possibly thousands of AMERICAN LIVES.”
Chuck, if it came to trials, you seem to think that this constitutes an affirmative defense. But don’t you think the defense should have to bear the burden of proving that they guy *they* were responsible for *did* actually give up valuable, actionable intelligence that saved lives?
It’s one thing to say ‘they might have gotten information that saved lives,’ but it’s just as possible that the suspect *didn’t* have any such information or if he did, he didn’t give it up.
Left wing management
June 30th, 2011
5:06 pm
Dave R. “And you have first-hand knowledge of this – how?”
Because well-groomed and perfectly self-respecting politicians — people like a certain Santorum from PA, who even claims to be a Christian — not to mention former War Secretaries, will now regularly go on television and actually defend such practices, barely even bothering to conceal what they’re defending. So far has the moral rot gone.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
5:08 pm
The following can be attributed to Jameel Jaffer, deputy legal director at the American Civil Liberties Union:
“While we welcome the announcement that the Justice Department will conduct a full criminal investigation into the deaths of two prisoners in CIA custody, it is difficult to understand the prosecutor’s conclusion that only those two deaths warrant further investigation. For a period of several years, and with the approval of the Bush administration’s most senior officials, the CIA operated an interrogation program that subjected prisoners to unimaginable cruelty and violated both international and domestic law. The narrow investigation that Attorney General Holder announced today is not proportionate to the scale and scope of the wrongdoing.”
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
5:10 pm
Dave R…one does not need “first hand knowledge”, court testimony and decisions are an acceptable form of proof under our Constitution.
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
5:11 pm
This is all the result of having a criminally recidivist administration from 2000 – 2008.
Like josef and plenty of others, this is one that really torques me.
Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice and whoever was involved in the decision to sanction torture from the highest levels of our government should have been brought up on charges.
Doggone/GA
June 30th, 2011
5:12 pm
“And you know as well as anybody else that some poor shmo down at the bottom, “just following orders” will be scapegoated and those responsible for issuing the order will get by Scot free”
Not neccessarily. These two guys DIED, after all. I think it’s important to be as certain as we can that their interrogators DID act within the bounds of the orders they were given. That the detainees dies is not proof they didn’t, but it warrants an investigation to be as sure as we can.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
5:12 pm
The ACLU specialists in frivolous law suits.
Dave R.
June 30th, 2011
5:12 pm
Santorum and others defend enhanced interrogation techniques not torture.
Left wing management
June 30th, 2011
5:14 pm
Santorum and others defend enhanced interrogation techniques not torture.
Final solution or genocide, take your pick [ yawn ] .. it’s just words after all you know ..
Dusty
June 30th, 2011
5:14 pm
JOSEF,
You got it! But they are NOT going to get off the pot. Election time coming up. Bush did it and therefore you know la la la the bad GOP!!!!! Dems gotta score points where they can get ‘em.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
5:15 pm
Whether called EIT or Torture, a difference without distinction.
Recon, your entitled to your opinion but now you have stated something which purports to be a factual claim. Do prove that the ACLU specialized in frivolous law suits. I am sure you can point to some court decisions that have found that right?
Dave R.
June 30th, 2011
5:15 pm
And I believe that investigating alleged “torture” that occurred in 2002 and 2003 in facilities in Afghanistan and Iraq have little in the way of “evidence” and much in the way of “supposition” to fuel this prosecution.
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
5:15 pm
Enhanced interrogation is Cheneyspeak. It is legalese pyschobabble.
Torture is torture.
Dave R.
June 30th, 2011
5:16 pm
Repeating an incorrect analogy doesn’t suddenly make it correct, LWM, no matter how hard you try.
Jay
June 30th, 2011
5:17 pm
Chuck, remember this guy?
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4977986
He’s one of the two in question. So you tell me.
chuck
June 30th, 2011
5:17 pm
Joe Mama, My point was two-fold. First, there is no evidence to this point that they died as a direct result of “torture” whatever that is defined as. In fact, there is no evidence that they were tortured. We therefore should presume that they are INNOCENT, because they are not PROVEN guilty. Second, we know for a fact that interrogations since the first prisoners were captured, have saved lives. We may never know how many thousands of lives have been saved as a result of interrogations, but many, many plots have been foiled and many terrorists have been killed as a result of this information, INCLUDING Bin Laden. I really couldn’t care less if terrorists have been killed either in prison or on the battlefield or by predators. The more the merrier. We ought to be executing them after military trials anyway. It’s crazy that we have kept so many of them at Gitmo and other places without giving them hearings and carrying out justice.
Dave R.
June 30th, 2011
5:18 pm
Ripping my fingernails out is torture.
Playing ABBA 24/7 is an enhanced interrogation technique.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
5:20 pm
The lib’s can’t talk about Obama’s accomplishments with any degree of credibility so they keep going back to Bush. I guess to relieve their anxiety and divert away from the current presidential failure.
Left wing management
June 30th, 2011
5:22 pm
Dave Ur: “Repeating an incorrect analogy doesn’t suddenly make it correct, LWM, no matter how hard you try.”
If I focus on the Nazis, that’s because they bequeathed a whole trove of these euphemisms to us, so there’s quite a bounty to choose from.
Take for example how they used everyday words like Aktion and Sonderaktion to mean “kill Jews”. Euphemisms for things that cause otherwise morally respectable people to flinch with guilt are all the same, Dave.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
5:22 pm
Why Recon…you do continue to post nonsense as if it were fact. But you fail to back up any of your claims…I guess you must be diverting and lacking credibility.
Jay
June 30th, 2011
5:23 pm
Actually, Dusty, Recon, et al, I’m pretty sure this move will cost Obama votes, so the suggestion it is being done out of political calculation is simply wrong.
Quite the contrary, it’s being done despite the probable political damage.
carlosgvv
June 30th, 2011
5:23 pm
Jay, you are right. We are Americans and Americans are certainly not supposed to either do those kind of things or support those who do. However, George W. Bush said he thought God wanted him to be President so it follows he thought he had God’s blessing is condoning torture. You may be certain his mindless Republican followers totally support him in this.
chuck
June 30th, 2011
5:24 pm
Jay, is it possible that those injuries mentioned occurred during his CAPTURE? The article mentions injuries that are more consistent with a fight than they are torture. If as the article says, they attempted to insure that he had enough slack, then it sounds to me like the death was accidental. Regardless, if he did the things he was accused of, I’m not going to shed any tears either way.
Dave R.
June 30th, 2011
5:26 pm
OK, LWM, you continue that particular folly if you must.
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
5:26 pm
“Second, we know for a fact that interrogations since the first prisoners were captured, have saved lives.”
I see this claim made regularly.
I see facts to corroborate it never.
Jay
June 30th, 2011
5:27 pm
I couldn’t guide you there, John Galt, but if Thulsa is around, he has it saved on his hard drive.
Left wing management
June 30th, 2011
5:28 pm
ReCON: “The lib’s can’t talk about Obama’s accomplishments with any degree of credibility so they keep going back to Bush. I guess to relieve their anxiety and divert away from the current presidential failure”
Some of us continue to speak of Bush the same way folks in the Gulf will continue to refer back to Katrina long after many newer storms have come and gone.
Jay
June 30th, 2011
5:29 pm
The death was probably accidental, Chuck. It doesn’t change the fact it occurred during torture.
chuck
June 30th, 2011
5:29 pm
AmVet, maybe that’s because all you read is Bookman. Try reading an actual newspaper, or just google it dude. Really? Even your knucklehead president has repeatedly spoken about this during the past 2 years.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
5:30 pm
Let’s remember that unlike Karl Rove’s attempts to put the DoJ under the political thumb, the DoJ is to be independent of political pressure.
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
5:32 pm
“AmVet, maybe that’s because all you read is Bookman.”
So, chuck.
Humor me and post these “facts”.
I’m sure many here have not seen them.
Dusty
June 30th, 2011
5:33 pm
We have several known antiwar activists on this blog. They would not go to war to protect their country. Seems they would not use extreme measures if a captured terrorists could give info to save their own mother. What WOULD they do? Nothing? A cup of tea? A warm embrace?
It is doubtful that anyone died from torture at the hands of Americans. The so called “torture” at Abu Gharib (lights, noise, naked embarrassment) has already been judged and punishment given.
So now we must diminish our military for the acts of a few which can hardly be proved.
This is a political chase for attention and nothing more. The goal of justice Holder/Dems claim to work for has already been reached and settled. .
Mr Right
June 30th, 2011
5:33 pm
Torture is torture.
Does having to put up with Obama and Holder qualify as torture ?
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
5:33 pm
Enhanced interrogation produced critical intel that led to OBL. Leon Panetta didn’t refute that claim. Since Obama allowed the mission to go forward and it can be reasonably assumed that he did so, knowing all of the sources for critical intelligence shouldn’t that make him culpable of utilizing information gained through what the left calls torture?
The Gipper
June 30th, 2011
5:34 pm
No fair, Jay. NPR has already been thoroughly discredited by the Republicans and defunded so anything they have is now officially null and void. Just ask that O’Keefe fella. He’ll tell you.
Doggone/GA
June 30th, 2011
5:34 pm
‘Does having to put up with Obama and Holder qualify as torture ”
No…because you are free to walk away any time you like. Torture victims can’t.
pogo
June 30th, 2011
5:35 pm
Once again Obama is using his dumb-@$$ lapdog Holder and the Justice Dept. in some desperate attempt to make some statement about the moral integrity of his administration. At first I thought Obama was somewhat intelligent. Now he just looks plain dumb and more and more like a desperate foundering candidate who will say and do anything to get re-elected. Most Americans couldn’t care less if our intelligence agencies kill suspected terrorists in their attempt to obtain information. I loved the Washington Post’s roast of Obama’s speech the other day. Even they, being the liberal supporting paper that they are, saw that he is just plain full of, well, himself and nothing else. He has nothing to offer to our country other than garbled words and vague promises and of course, throwing blame for his failures on someone else. Have you ever seen Obama accept responsiblity for just one thing that has gone wrong during his presidency? That alone should make even his supporters take notice, but it won’t. Jay is a follower and so are the rest of the Obama loving liberals here. They know nothing but unquestioning obedience to their ideological leader. Sad.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
5:35 pm
I am with you AmVet….in fact, despite the attempted claims to link “torture” to deriving credible evidence, other than Fox, a few republicans and former Bushies, no one makes the claim or has proven a direct link.
Dusty
June 30th, 2011
5:35 pm
Bookman
You should use the word “probably” more often. It is the foundation for most of your introductions.
F. Sinkwich
June 30th, 2011
5:35 pm
Two dead terrorist dirtbag scums.
Yawn…
chuck
June 30th, 2011
5:36 pm
Jay, If he had unknown injuries, the death is an accident, if the techniques used by the interrogators would not have killed him otherwise. In addition, the fact that he was shackled and interrogated does not constitute torture. If it did, every law enforcement agency in the world is guilty of torture.
Also, the term homicide, is used here to assume that a criminal act occurred because that is what people assume when they hear that word. It actually is defined as the killing of one human being by another. Although the term homicide is sometimes used synonymously with murder, homicide is broader in scope than murder. Murder is a form of criminal homicide; other forms of homicide might not constitute criminal acts. These homicides are regarded as justified or excusable. For example, individuals may, in a necessary act of Self-Defense, kill a person who threatens them with death or serious injury, or they may be commanded or authorized by law to kill a person who is a member of an enemy force or who has committed a serious crime. Typically, the circumstances surrounding a killing determine whether it is criminal. The intent of the killer usually determines whether a criminal homicide is classified as murder or Manslaughter and at what degree.
Dave R.
June 30th, 2011
5:39 pm
Dusty, Jay failed “Qualifier 101″ in college.
He’s more of an “I know everything I know” absolutist.
Left wing management
June 30th, 2011
5:39 pm
Dusty: “We have several known antiwar activists on this blog”
Oh really? Who are they?
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
5:39 pm
Recon again the factual content of your post is lacking. CIA chief Leon Panetta stated in his letter to McCain:
Let me further point out that we first learned about the facilitator/courier’s nom de guerre from a detainee not in CIA custody in 2002,” the letter stated. “It is also important to note that some detainees who were subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques attempted to provide false or misleading information about the facilitator/courier. These attempts to falsify the facilitator/courier’s role were alerting.”
“In the end, no detainee in CIA custody revealed the facilitator/courier’s full true name or specific whereabouts,” Panetta added. “This information was discovered through other intelligence means.”
Torture is contrary to the law of this land.
Jay
June 30th, 2011
5:40 pm
“Enhanced interrogation produced critical intel that led to OBL. Leon Panetta didn’t refute that claim.”
I’ve never seen that claim made by anybody in a position to know. I’ve seen the claim made that people who were tortured LATER produced useful intel. You could argue they did so because of the torture. You could argue that they did so despite of the torture. But no one could ever prove either point.
Dave R.
June 30th, 2011
5:41 pm
Now it’s off to feed the canines and the Dave R.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
5:41 pm
Maybe Eric Holder should conduct an investigation into the death of Bin Ladin and was he tortured. Did the White House know he was tortured before being executed. Did the White House cover it up by ordering his body dumped at sea, so no official cause of death could be documented.
Paulo977
June 30th, 2011
5:42 pm
josef
“not to beat a dead horse”
Sometimes necessary to get widespread attention!!!
Left wing management
June 30th, 2011
5:42 pm
Jay: “You could argue they did so because of the torture. You could argue that they did so despite of the torture. But no one could ever prove either point.”
But that’s not good enough for our friend Recon you see because if you say no one was able to prove it didn’t produce useful intel (a “counter-factual”) then that’s all he needs to hear to persist in his belief in its value.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
5:43 pm
Recon, shame on you for accusing those SEALs of violating law and torturing. That is simply disgraceful.
Jay
June 30th, 2011
5:44 pm
And Keep is correct: Torture is against the law. As the federal code states:
§ 2340A. Torture
(a) Offense.— Whoever outside the United States commits or attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if death results to any person from conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall be punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life.
(b) Jurisdiction.— There is jurisdiction over the activity prohibited in subsection (a) if—
(1) the alleged offender is a national of the United States; or
(2) the alleged offender is present in the United States, irrespective of the nationality of the victim or alleged offender.
(c) Conspiracy.— A person who conspires to commit an offense under this section shall be subject to the same penalties (other than the penalty of death) as the penalties prescribed for the offense, the commission of which was the object of the conspiracy.
Now. What part of “illegal” do you not understand?
Paul
June 30th, 2011
5:44 pm
People may not like the policy and may feel it was flawed, immoral and/or illegal, but it still remains it was legal.
Procedures were established to ensure death did not occur. Generally speaking, it was a safe bet deaths would not occur, as the techniques were comprised of
- grabbing the prisoner’s shirt and shaking him
- getting slapped with an open hand
- getting an open-hand belly slap (no fists)
- standing for a long time
- being kept in a 50 degree cell and doused with cold water
and if you were one of the unlucky three to twelve, waterboarded.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Investigation/story?id=1322866
I’d use the official report we discussed some months back but can’t locate the bookmark.
So it’s also a safe assumption if someone died, someone exceeded the rules. Since only 14 interrogators were trained in the techniques, it could be a case of untrained personnel carrying out actions they were neither trained nor authorized to do. If so, they should be held accountable.
josef
June 30th, 2011
5:46 pm
Jay…
As you like to say, I’m calling major BS on it not being political…of course it is. And any votes it costs will be those of us out here who are saying that if you don’t go get the ones at the top you ain’t done nothing but grandstand for political reasons. The Iraq pictures are sensational enough and horrible and against everything we are supposed to believe in. Facts are, though, that they were operating under orders (right, try and find one, again the Nurnberg defense) from above. Certainly get their asses, but not before you get those who “issued” the order to begin with.
These are politically motivated show trials in the offing and nothing more…
Jefferson
June 30th, 2011
5:46 pm
Things are better than 2 years ago, fact.
getalife
June 30th, 2011
5:47 pm
Torture is evil.
The President ended it.
There are counties that want to prosecute.
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
5:47 pm
LWM, careful. You’ll be deemed a subversive soon.
A guy who knew a couple things about torture thought it important enough to get enacted The Detainee Treatment Act of 2005.
It is clear. Notwithstanding the Bush team of lawyers excellent parsing skills, NO torture.
I found this insightful:
After approving the bill President Bush issued a signing statement: an official document in which a president lays out his interpretation of a new law. In it Bush said:
“The executive branch shall construe Title X in Division A of the Act, relating to detainees, in a manner consistent with the constitutional authority of the President to supervise the unitary executive branch and as Commander in Chief and consistent with the constitutional limitations on the judicial power, which will assist in achieving the shared objective of the Congress and the President, evidenced in Title X, of protecting the American people from further terrorist attacks.”
F. Sinkwich
June 30th, 2011
5:47 pm
I think those two miscreants just tripped over a chair or sumthin’…..
Nothing to see here, folks.
Jay
June 30th, 2011
5:48 pm
I strongly disagree, Josef.
Torturing “terrorists,” even those who may not actually BE terrorists, is pretty popular stuff.
Prosecuting heroic CIA agents for what they did to “terrorists,” even if they didn’t actually happen to be terrorists, is very UNpopular. And the number of those who, like yourself, will vote against Obama because he also didn’t prosecute Cheney, Bush, et al is minuscule compared to the number who may vote against him because he dared to “defend terrorists.”
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
5:48 pm
“Recon again the factual content of your post is lacking. CIA chief Leon Panetta stated in his letter to McCain:” I followed closely. Post a link to that letter and please don’t utilize media matters or the Huffington Post.
chuck
June 30th, 2011
5:49 pm
Recon makes an excellent point, Jay. The Navy Seals that captured this terrorist had to defend themselves when he resisted the attempt to be captured. If that constitutes “TORTURE”, how much more should the EXECUTION of Osama Bin Laden without any attempt to capture him (at the orders of Barack HUSSEIN Obama) be considered a criminal act?
josef
June 30th, 2011
5:49 pm
POGO
Blunty put, you’re wrong. Holder is not Obama’s lap dog…vice versa.
Dusty
June 30th, 2011
5:50 pm
Leftwing management……yes, really!!
If you haven’t noticed the antiwar people here, there’s no use me telling you who they are. But I will give you a clue. They are not Republicans or Independents. I have read this blog since Luckovich shut down.. The antiwar people have cooled a bit but are still obvious. Go ahead! Give it a try!!
Jay
June 30th, 2011
5:52 pm
And Paul, I have to disagree with your statement that it was legal.
Here’s how the federal code defines torture (I previously posted the prohibition of the practice):
§ 2340. Definitions
As used in this chapter—
(1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
(2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—
(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
(C) the threat of imminent death; or
(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality; and
(3) “United States” means the several States of the United States, the District of Columbia, and the commonwealths, territories, and possessions of the United States.
Brosephus
June 30th, 2011
5:52 pm
I can see already that this will be one of those partisaned sh*tholes that I don’t wanna climb down into. Y’all have fun with this one….
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
5:52 pm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/post/exclusive-private-letter-from-cia-chief-undercuts-claim-torture-was-key-to-killing-bin-laden/2011/03/03/AFLFF04G_blog.html
Recon, here you go.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
5:53 pm
Off to pick up my daughter. Catch y’all later.
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
5:53 pm
chuck — “Joe Mama, My point was two-fold. First, there is no evidence to this point that they died as a direct result of “torture” whatever that is defined as. In fact, there is no evidence that they were tortured. We therefore should presume that they are INNOCENT, because they are not PROVEN guilty.”
Well, we *do* presume innocence in our court system. That’s why they’d have to be *proven* guilty. But we do put people on trial if there’s suspicion and evidence. You seem to be arguing that no trials should take place.
“Second, we know for a fact that interrogations since the first prisoners were captured, have saved lives. We may never know how many thousands of lives have been saved as a result of interrogations, but many, many plots have been foiled and many terrorists have been killed as a result of this information, INCLUDING Bin Laden.”
That’s irrelevant to my point. I’m not an attorney, but it seems to me that someone wishing to offer that as an affirmative defense would have to prove that the detainee or detainees they are charged with killing or assaulting (whatever the charge might be) merited the treatment he deserved *specifically because* he had valuable and actionable intelligence that saved lives, and that the only way to extract it was to do what the defendants did. We don’t automatically acquit people because they killed or assaulted a dude who just generally bad news. There has to be a specific and verifiable justification — such as self-defense — for something like that.
“I really couldn’t care less if terrorists have been killed either in prison or on the battlefield or by predators.”
I do. I wasn’t MI, so I wasn’t trained in EPW (that’s what the military called them when I was in — Enemy Prisoners of War) handling, but we were taught to take their gear, leave them only their clothing and canteen, segregate them so they couldn’t cook up a story, protect them from harm and give them medical attention if they needed it, and then hustle them, their gear and any documents they might have to the rear as soon as practical so the intel guys could grill them. We were *specifically* taught to play hands-off unless they attacked us, tried to escape or tried to assault other EPWs.
“The more the merrier. We ought to be executing them after military trials anyway. It’s crazy that we have kept so many of them at Gitmo and other places without giving them hearings and carrying out justice.”
I don’t want someone like you calling the shots on this, because I’m a disabled veteran and I don’t want some dirtbag intelligence officer in some hellhole terrorist country to feel justified in using these ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’ on one of our guys. I don’t want there to be a war crimes trial in 20 or 50 years or whenever where the guy jumps up and says ‘you *ssholes did the same thing at Abu Ghraib and you said you were justified!’
I don’t begrudge you your opinion, but I think that following the course of action you’re advocating places our troops at greater risk of having the same sort of crap done to them.
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
5:54 pm
Dave — “Ripping my fingernails out is torture. Playing ABBA 24/7 is an enhanced interrogation technique.”
THIS
ty webb
June 30th, 2011
5:54 pm
ah yes, retreaded poutrage of “torture’ during the bush years…All you Francis’s need to lighten up…your guy got an unarmed Bin laden, twice in the head.
El Jefe
June 30th, 2011
5:55 pm
Holder is an example of the wrong man in the wrong job.
getalife
June 30th, 2011
5:55 pm
A lawyer in the w administration said it was legal but never challenged it in court.
It does not pass the smell test when we executed Japanese for water boarding.
It is illegal and a war crime.
Again, other countries want to prosecute.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
5:56 pm
US Sup has also said that punishments that involve tortue are forbidden under 8th amend. US is also a party to international treaties that prohibit torture.
Left wing management
June 30th, 2011
5:56 pm
Ok, Dusty, I gotcha. I personally favor many wars. But the Iraq War, even if it was for good ends, the people who hatched it were doing it for all the wrong reasons and therefore in my view it had to be opposed in the most ferocious way. How’s that sound?
Doggone/GA
June 30th, 2011
5:56 pm
Here’s a thought: why not use the same techniques on the CIA agents that they used on the detainees and see if we get the truth about what they did?
josef
June 30th, 2011
5:58 pm
JAY
You may be right, but then why are they bringing it up to begin with if it’s not political? Why the option of the Nurnberg defense if it’s not political? As bad as these cases are at the “hands on” level, these shmoes are being played as pawns to make it look like they’re doing something. Well, they are, all right..but what they’re doing is, in my opinion, as un American as the torture and the deaths. I thought we established that at Nurnberg and at the Hague. If we’re not going for the Big Boys here, our bring him to account rhetoric on Qadaffi, the trials in Phnom Penh, and haling of Mladic before the tribunal ring hollow..
Left wing management
June 30th, 2011
5:59 pm
Jay: Prosecuting heroic CIA agents for what they did to “terrorists,” even if they didn’t actually happen to be terrorists, is very UNpopular. And the number of those who, like yourself, will vote against Obama because he also didn’t prosecute Cheney, Bush, et al is minuscule compared to the number who may vote against him because he dared to “defend terrorists.”
Just adding to what Jay said, it’s also a crucial problem for Obama – as a DEMOCRAT – to be seen as doing anything even slightly in the direction of being easy or forgiving towards lawbreakers or foreign threats.
Remember that only a Nixon could go to China, thawing relations with a hated Communist foe. A Jimmy Carter or any other Democrat would never have been allowed to make that move.
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
5:59 pm
Doggone — “Here’s a thought: why not use the same techniques on the CIA agents that they used on the detainees and see if we get the truth about what they did?”
NO and NOT funny.
We *executed* Japanese intel personnel after WWII for waterboarding. I don’t think waterboarding is *ever* justified.
Jay
June 30th, 2011
6:01 pm
“Autopsy photos show lacerations and multiple bruises on Jamadi’s feet, thighs and arms. His most significant injuries — five broken ribs — are not visible in the photos. There were no bruises in that area, leading military medical examiners to say that the fractures were probably caused by a slow, deliberate application of force, such as someone kneeling on his chest.”
Right Chuck. Just like Osama.
Sheesh.
Real Scooter
June 30th, 2011
6:01 pm
These are politically motivated show trials in the offing and nothing more
AMEN! josef
chuck
June 30th, 2011
6:01 pm
Quite the opposite Joe mama, Jay is calling for prosecutions even though no investigation has occurred and no evidence of a criminal act exists at this time.
josef
June 30th, 2011
6:02 pm
PAUL
YAY! You’re back…now can I have some time off? EOI’s been tough… had a good time I hope…
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
6:03 pm
chuck — “Quite the opposite Joe mama, Jay is calling for prosecutions even though no investigation has occurred and no evidence of a criminal act exists at this time.”
Really? Because his title says “investigation,” not “prosecution.”
pogo
June 30th, 2011
6:04 pm
Most Americans have become so de-sensitized to death and killing that they couldn’t care less if their next door neighbor gets killed by some thug breaking into their house, much less the death of some suspected terrorists. Rest assured, somewhere in the world right now there are some suspected terrorists, people that have suspected intent to do this country harm, that are being harshly treated, and rightly so. If Holder is so upset by this incident then why didn’t he publically oppose the Obama ordered sanction of Osama Bin Laden? Bin Laden “sufferred” the ultimate interrogation technique (he was killed in about 30 seconds) and no court ever heard a word he had to say in his own defense. If Obama and Holder believe so much in the legal system why didn’t they simply bring Osama to America before a court? The reason was that politcally it was much more glamourous to just kill him outright.
For that matter, why aren’t Obama and Holder raising hell about our drones shooting missiles throughout the middle-east which we know will result in “collateral” casualties? Why aren’t Jay and the rest of you liberals passing out in outrage at Obama’s decision to use these uncaring/unknowing machines to carry out attacks which will cause innocent peoples deaths? What is the real difference between the two cases?
getalife
June 30th, 2011
6:05 pm
Looks like our President had enough of the gop.
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
6:06 pm
Yeah, Paul might not think so, but I found the ABBA reference pretty funny.
ty, LOL.
Still, it is a dishonorable chapter in our history and needs not be swept under the rug completely.
F. Sinkwich
June 30th, 2011
6:07 pm
“Autopsy photos show lacerations and multiple bruises on Jamadi’s feet, thighs and arms. His most significant injuries — five broken ribs — are not visible in the photos.”
Osama sure hired some clumsy dudes. He needed a better HR department.
Jimmy62
June 30th, 2011
6:09 pm
I thought it was revealed that information gotten from torture led to the finding and killing of Bin Laden. Doesn’t that mean the sitting President at the time, Obama, is as responsible as if he had personally tortured the prisoner? That was the attitude with Bush.
Paul
June 30th, 2011
6:09 pm
Jay
Don’t mean this to sound like parsing, or looking for a way out for the top people, but from the standpoint of the people at the bottom of the food chain the techniques had to be presented as legal, as they are required to carry out lawful orders and refuse unlawful orders (I’m making the assumption here that CIA officers are held to the same standards as military in this situation). And the whole reason for going thru the Office of Legal Counsel, as I understand it, was to get a legal opinion stating that the practices did not constitute torture. The opinion was rendered, the practices were deemed to not meet the tests laid out in the statute and the interrogations proceeded.
The statute (as is expected) does not describe specific practices, it describes characteristics of practices that, taken as a whole (meeting the tests of all the “severe” and “prolonged” included in the statute). Personally, I can see how the top five can be excluded. I think OLC was incorrect in their assessment of waterboarding.
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
6:09 pm
pogo — “If Holder is so upset by this incident then why didn’t he publically oppose the Obama ordered sanction of Osama Bin Laden? Bin Laden “sufferred” the ultimate interrogation technique (he was killed in about 30 seconds) and no court ever heard a word he had to say in his own defense. If Obama and Holder believe so much in the legal system why didn’t they simply bring Osama to America before a court? The reason was that politcally it was much more glamourous to just kill him outright.”
This is just ludicrous. I have no doubt that the SEAL team *would* have brought OBL in alive if they could have, but when the guy resists, what are you supposed to do? Lecture him and wag your finger in remonstrance? The notion that OBL was ‘interrogated’ in any way is just laughable. There’s a significant and distinct difference between someone who resisted apprehension and was shot dead and someone who was captured, incarcerated and then died somehow in our custody.
Paul
June 30th, 2011
6:10 pm
Evening, josef nix!
Glad you led down the fort. Please, take time off from EOI duties but don’t go anywhere, ‘k?
Dusty
June 30th, 2011
6:11 pm
Left Wing Management,
So you were against the Iraq War but others were OK. How does that sound?
It sounds like you totally absorbed the brainwashing that Dems practiced from the day Bush was declared president quite legally.. Never has such an adverse effort done so much harm to a country as those intimidations. The chasm still stays open because it did so much damage. You can see it here every day in many ways.
I hope your “ferocious war efforts” did not harm out troops. I can’t think it encouraged them. I suppose you have an excuse for that too. You did not like Bush. What an excuse!! I guess you liked Saddam.
saywhat?
June 30th, 2011
6:12 pm
When Ty Webb, Recon, Pogo, Chuck or their friends or family members are tortured, er, I mean “enhancedly interrogated” to death by Americans or some foreign government, I will be sure to respect their wishes and fight any attempt at an investigation, or attempts to hold somebody responsible. I wouldn’t want the deaths of such fine people sullied by something so politically motivated.
Paul
June 30th, 2011
6:12 pm
Dave
“Playing ABBA 24/7 is an enhanced interrogation technique.”
Nuh-uh. The music played while they were in their cells was Rap and Eminem stuff.
Abba’s played as a reward for cooperating.
saywhat?
June 30th, 2011
6:13 pm
Dave — “Ripping my fingernails out is torture. Playing ABBA 24/7 is an enhanced interrogation technique.”
I think you have that backwards.
getalife
June 30th, 2011
6:13 pm
Dusty,
Do you support engaging in Libya?
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
6:13 pm
To Doggone/GA’s point.
If these things are not torture, why haven’t we been utilizing them on our criminals?
Surely, we could save (fill in your favorite number here) lives.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
6:14 pm
So when Newt has Dancing Queen as his ringtone…is that EIT or Torture?
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
6:15 pm
Paul — “they are required to carry out lawful orders and refuse unlawful orders”
This is true, but it doesn’t mean that refusing to follow unlawful orders is easy or that anyone in your chain of command will back you up (I’m speaking from a military POV). There’s also the distinct possibility that your commanders would refer you for administrative punishment, and if your complaint is found to be baseless, then you’ve just hosed yourself and your military career.
I suspect that a similar dynamic is in operation with respect to CIA officers and the like.
Tommy Maddox
June 30th, 2011
6:16 pm
Eric Holder – America’s version of Paul Howard.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
6:17 pm
Now, don’t get me wrong …………… I ain’t hot on “real” torture either …….. gives me the creeps.
For example, one night in Nam my buddy and I had to guard two V.C. prisoners all night back at base camp. They were just squatting down in a little barbed wire enclosure. It was kind of chilly and drizzly so (although I would have killed them that day without blinking in a fair fight) I went and got them a canteen of water each, two C-ration meals and two ponchos to wrap up in. My buddy thought I was nuts.
But that said, what will someone in the future say the offense is for shooting an unarmed Osama bin Laden in the presence of his wife and small children? If Obama wasn’t president, you libs. would all be screaming about that !
chuck
June 30th, 2011
6:18 pm
Shouldn’t there be outrage about predator attacks which kill suspects indiscriminately without getting ANY information from them? Now personally, I have no problem with them, but you all that have a problem with this must be catatonic with rage that it’s YOUR GUY that is ordering them rather than some right winger, so you can’t say anything about it.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
6:19 pm
If anyone is interested in a comprehensive investigative report complete with supporting documents (remembering that the government has destroyed a great deal of evidence including recordings of the actual “interrogations), you may want to check out:
http://www.thetorturereport.org
Paul
June 30th, 2011
6:19 pm
Joe Mama
The ABC article I linked to state only 14 CIA officers were trained and authorized to carry out the procedures. Other officers refused to take part. I have read nothing to indicate they were in any way sanctioned for not taking part in a voluntary program that violated their consciences.
Based on the description Jay posted earlier, it seems these cases occurred outside the CIA’s interrogation program and were the result of brutal treatment by individuals charged with safeguarding their prisoners.
Tommy Maddox
June 30th, 2011
6:21 pm
Did any of our guys emasculate their prisoners then hang them off a bridge overpass while they were on fire [as in Mosul]?
I didn’t think so.
getalife
June 30th, 2011
6:21 pm
Scout,
You are against double tapping obl because Obama got him.
It is too obvious.
Go ahead and admit it.
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
6:21 pm
“If Obama wasn’t president, you libs. would all be screaming about that !”
Screaming for joy.
Just like I did when GWB smoked the Taliban. They didn’t get OBL, but I still loved it…
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
6:21 pm
Potpourri:
1)
First we had “Tricky Dick” Nixon.
Now we have ” _________ Dick” Obama.
Add your own rhyme ………… they can be pretty funny !
2)
President “Dick” Obama.
3)
“Liberals celebrate : 4/15
Conservatives celebrate : 7/4
4)
“The bigger the government the smaller the God.
“The bigger the God the smaller the government.”
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
6:22 pm
If Obama wasn’t president, you libs. would all be screaming about that !
Absolute bull Scout…but lets be clear. Do YOU think that shooting OBL during an attempt to capture in front of his wife and children (we’ll presume that is true) was unlawful?
Dusty
June 30th, 2011
6:22 pm
getalife,
I did not know we were engaged in Libya. Maybe misseled but not married. Wasn’t Obama going to tell us if the knot was tied? Maybe I missed the great edict. He seemed to be deciding on his own. Now that is really scary. Did he forget about Congress?
josef
June 30th, 2011
6:22 pm
PAUL
Not to worry…I’m not going anywhere!
Doggone/GA
June 30th, 2011
6:23 pm
“NO and NOT funny”
It wasn’t meant to be funny. If what they did was not torture, then why should be not be able to use it to get information we KNOW they have?
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
6:24 pm
WELL, I’M HAPPY THE TRUTH FINALLY CAME OUT !
HEADLINE: “Harvard: July 4th Parades Are Right-Wing”
“Democratic political candidates can skip this weekend’s July 4th parades. A new Harvard University study finds that July 4th parades energize only Republicans, turn kids into Republicans, and help to boost the GOP turnout of adults on Election Day.
“Fourth of July celebrations in the United States shape the nation’s political landscape by forming beliefs and increasing participation, primarily in favor of the Republican Party,” said the report from Harvard.
“The political right has been more successful in appropriating American patriotism and its symbols during the 20th century. Survey evidence also confirms that Republicans consider themselves more patriotic than Democrats. According to this interpretation, there is a political congruence between the patriotism promoted on Fourth of July and the values associated with the Republican party. Fourth of July celebrations in Republican dominated counties may thus be more politically biased events that socialize children into Republicans,” write Harvard Kennedy School Assistant Professor David Yanagizawa-Drott and Bocconi University Assistant Professor Andreas Madestam.”
Read more: http://nation.foxnews.com/culture/2011/06/30/harvard-july-4th-parades-are-right-wing#ixzz1QnhYJe68
chuck
June 30th, 2011
6:25 pm
AHA!!! joe mama, the person who died in JAY’s case ALSO resisted and sustained serious injuries as a result of the ensuing fight. CASE CLOSED. YOU just set the standard. The only problem with that is that OBL was unarmed and just moving toward a weapon. I am personally glad that they put a bullet in his head, but it would have been much more useful to INTERROGATE him using VERY enhanced techniques. I don’t think we would have gotten as much from him as we did from his computers, but it would have been more satisfying.
Left wing management
June 30th, 2011
6:26 pm
Dusty “It sounds like you totally absorbed the brainwashing that Dems practiced from the day Bush was declared president quite legally.. Never has such an adverse effort done so much harm to a country as those intimidations. The chasm still stays open because it did so much damage. You can see it here every day in many ways.”
If you say it did damage, then I say “good”. That means what we did worked – at least in part. We couldn’t stop the bastards from causing that disaster, but at least we left a scar.
The chasm if real, Dusty, and will remain will as long as the wealthy and connected continue to use the system to engage in class warfare against the rest.
ty webb
June 30th, 2011
6:26 pm
“Do YOU think that shooting OBL during an attempt to capture in front of his wife and children (we’ll presume that is true) was unlawful?”
well if you ask Pakistan or anyone whoever spit out that whole “sovereign nation” crap…one could argue that the whole operation was indeed unlawful.
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
6:27 pm
1811 — “what will someone in the future say the offense is for shooting an unarmed Osama bin Laden in the presence of his wife and small children? If Obama wasn’t president, you libs. would all be screaming about that !”
I wouldn’t.
Paul — “The ABC article I linked to state only 14 CIA officers were trained and authorized to carry out the procedures. Other officers refused to take part. I have read nothing to indicate they were in any way sanctioned for not taking part in a voluntary program that violated their consciences.”
I doubt the CIA says much publicly about their HR policies. It’s entirely possible that nothing happened to the officers who refused, but it’s also possible that they harmed their careers in some way.
“Based on the description Jay posted earlier, it seems these cases occurred outside the CIA’s interrogation program and were the result of brutal treatment by individuals charged with safeguarding their prisoners.”
If so, then that would be a significant point in the case, as it would tend to dilute the argument that the accused were ‘just following orders.’ It would incriminate the interrogators and exonerate Bush administration officials, would it not?
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
6:28 pm
Ty…you’re diverting to another subject. Was the actual shooting unlawful? Why or why not?
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
6:29 pm
Good Fight:
Nope.
1) He was an enemy combatant (same as one of our snipers shooting a Taliban at 1,000 meters taking a dump …………… it’s been done.)
2) Every photo or video of him showed an AK-47 within reach (his choice).
3) The bad guy doesn’t get to shoot first.
4) He could have had an explosive vest or grenade (also his “wife” or any of the kids. That’s just what they do),
Now, all of that said I think you miss my point.
a) Had it been under Bush’s watch …….. most libs. would be saying “ASSASSINATION” !!!
b) What’s to keep a new administration/attorney general from coming in and opening an investigation?
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
6:30 pm
ty webb @ 6:26 and Good Fight:
…………. and we haven’t heard from the illustrious “World Court” yet have we ?????
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
6:33 pm
“Dum, dum dum, dum ………….. the names have been changed to protect the innocent.”
“Anthony Weiner’s wife is taking time off from her senior job with the State Department — as well as time off from the randy former representative, The Post has learned.
While Weiner, 46, heads to an “intensive” rehab program to recover from the sexting scandal that cost him his congressional career, his 35-year-old spouse, Huma Abedin, will be relaxing at an undisclosed location.
“She is definitely taking time off away from her husband and chilling,” a source said. “And he’s going some place for at least a couple of weeks.”
Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/premature_evacuation_SvQwcvAcIT2eSF5eg4htIN#ixzz1QnkI1Nlm
poison pen
June 30th, 2011
6:33 pm
Jay, won’t pledge allegiance to death by torture and nobody should, but he will pledge allegiance for illegal people coming over our borders. Just sayin…
ty webb
June 30th, 2011
6:34 pm
Keep up,
Don’t know and don’t really care…we(the good guys) did what we had to do to them(the bad guys). You’ll see no crocodile tears from me regarding the shooting of an unarmed bin laden or regarding our enhanced interrogations, but then again I’m just being consistent with my poutrage…or lack thereof.
Curious Observer
June 30th, 2011
6:34 pm
Murder is a form of criminal homicide; other forms of homicide might not constitute criminal acts. These homicides are regarded as justified or excusable.
Equivocate, equivocate, equivocate, chuck. People just like you and Dusty and the reason my wife never knew her grandparents, who died in the gas chambers of Auschwitz for the sin of being Jews.
If people like Graner are innocent, let them stand trial. They don’t get a free pass merely because they happened to be in our army or in one of our agencies. The Nazi leaders learned that “merely following orders” was no excuse for murder. And if these CIA agents committed unprovoked murder, I want them punished severely. You and your kind make me sick. You’re the opposite of being American. You’re willing to excuse any horrific act, provided it conforms to your ideology.
BTW, whatever happened to Dusty’s scolding about “disrespecting the presidency” in the criticism of a president?
Paul
June 30th, 2011
6:36 pm
Joe Mama 6:27
I’d be shocked it it came out this was the result of a sanctioned interrogation session that followed established procedures. As I said, so far it looks like the people involved were not ‘just following orders.” It’s along the lines of those dashcams showing police administering a beating on a citizen.
As far as exonerating Bush administration officials, I wouldn’t go that far because, as I said, it appears the accused were taking actions prohibited by Bush administration officials.
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
6:36 pm
chuck — “AHA!!! joe mama, the person who died in JAY’s case ALSO resisted and sustained serious injuries as a result of the ensuing fight. CASE CLOSED.”
Stop trying so hard, Chuck. I’m not accusing anyone; I’m simply saying that I think investigations are a good idea, whether they uncover any serious offenses or clear everyone involved. You seem to think this is partisan with me; it’s not.
One other thing — I tend to become very harsh and argumentative with anyone who says ‘case closed’ to me or anything resembling it. I’m trying very hard to be patient and polite with you, so let’s not take things down that road, okay?
“YOU just set the standard. The only problem with that is that OBL was unarmed and just moving toward a weapon.”
OBL wasn’t in a prison; the other guy was. CASE OPEN. Kindly don’t put words in my mouth or thoughts in my head, chuck.
“I am personally glad that they put a bullet in his head”
So am I. I have said many times in many places that I wanted him caught dead or alive.
“but it would have been much more useful to INTERROGATE him using VERY enhanced techniques.”
While I would also have appreciated the opportunity for us to interrogate him, I think our recommended methods would have differed significantly.
“I don’t think we would have gotten as much from him as we did from his computers, but it would have been more satisfying.”
I agree that there was a pile of intel in the area where we took him, and I’m sure the data analysis guys were working nights to translate and crack it. Any terrorist butthole whose name or cell phone number was anywhere in that data needs to be worried.
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
6:37 pm
“…we(the good guys) did what we had to do to them(the bad guys).”
We did not have to stoop to torture.
We did have to endure an administration that promoted it.
Not one before his had.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
6:38 pm
Scout, I understood your point. Its absurd and absolutely a fiction. And just like Recon, unless you have actual evidence to indicate that there was anything done wrong, the implying that any of those Seals did something unlawful is disgusting.
If there is an investigation, then I would expect to facts to be shown. In fact, other than your low attacks on these Seals, the evidence available so fact suggests nothing was done wrong. This is just another of your Area 51 birther tricks to which you admit. Shame on you. Shame. Your post is a disgraceful reflection in my opinion to the military and law enforcement personnel of this country.
getalife
June 30th, 2011
6:38 pm
Dusty,
So the answer is no.
You did not support our President on Libya.
Where is your patriotism?
md
June 30th, 2011
6:39 pm
Mr Holder best be careful as to what precedent he sets, as the unintended consequences may very well bite him and this administration in the booty. Drone strikes and hits put out on foreign nationals may very well come into play……..especially in this current hyper-partisan environment.
Dusty
June 30th, 2011
6:39 pm
JOSEF,
You are not going anywhere? I thought you would be in Liberal rehab by now. Blinking lights, pictures of Bush, unsweetened sassafras tea, socialism spelled backward to be written 100 times, Hope & Change broadcast by the hour, collard tacos for lunch.
You would come out a new man, never known to disagree with Bookman or, heaven forbid, Obama.
Better watch it. I think someone is knocking on your door!!
josef
June 30th, 2011
6:40 pm
PAUL
“Don’t mean this to sound like parsing, or looking for a way out for the top people, but from the standpoint of the people at the bottom of the food chain the techniques had to be presented as legal, as they are required to carry out lawful orders and refuse unlawful orders (I’m making the assumption here that CIA officers are held to the same standards as military in this situation).”
You may not mean for it to sound like that, but that’s exactly what’s going on here. It will be presented in just that fashion and lacking a signed, sealed and delivered order from “above” the big boys get their get out jail free card, pass go and collect $200.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
6:40 pm
That’s right ………… make the mess and then split !
Headlines:
“Geithner Oversaw Largest Debt Increase Of Any Treasury Sec. In History… ”
“GEITHNER WANTS OUT”
md
June 30th, 2011
6:42 pm
And since we are on torture, why is waterboarding considered torture yet tazing unruly US citizens is not?? Makes no sense to me……….
Mighty Righty
June 30th, 2011
6:42 pm
We should start at the very top.
http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/vernon/110630
getalife
June 30th, 2011
6:43 pm
He reviewed 99 cases and found two he could not stomach.
A war crimes indictment could take down two Presidents.
w for ordering it and Obama for helping to cover it up .
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
6:44 pm
Good Fight:
You are about as good at twisting someone’s direct statements as anyone I have ever seen ……… I’ll give you that.
One more time ………… knucklehead !
1) What the SEALs did was RIGHT ON ! THEY DID NOTHING WRONG !
2) There is nothing in place to keep any future administration, the World Court or even libeal public opinon from saying what they did should be investigated as a possible war crime.
Now if you don’t understand that ………….. we’re done for today.
Doggone/GA
June 30th, 2011
6:44 pm
“And since we are on torture, why is waterboarding considered torture yet tazing unruly US citizens is not??”
It is considered torture if you use it when iterrogating a suspect. As for unruly citizens, would you rather they were shot?
chuck
June 30th, 2011
6:45 pm
Hmmmm. if he’s innocent, let him stand trial…interesting concept. I’m really glad I make you sick. In the meantime, Bite Me.
Real Scooter
June 30th, 2011
6:45 pm
We did have to endure an administration that promoted it.
Not one before his had.
I don’t think you really know that AmVet. Just sayin….
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
6:46 pm
getalife:
Time wil tell but for once your “objectivity” is a breath of fresh air.
getalife
June 30th, 2011
6:46 pm
Scout,
His job is done.
He saved the banks and Wall Street.
Mission Accomplished for real.
getalife
June 30th, 2011
6:47 pm
Just call em like I see em Scout.
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
6:47 pm
Jonix, the boys in Washington are NEVER gonna take the heat.
Why do think the Pentagon is located there?
But I think Jay is right. All this does is infuriate the pro-war gang. And there are still lots of chickenhawks in this country, just itching for another invasion. VERY risky politically and arguably one of a tiny few thing courageous to have come out of this administration. (Years later, misguided and nothing more than show, of course, but still…)
Shades of William Calley…
poison pen
June 30th, 2011
6:47 pm
josef
JAY
” You may be right, but then why are they bringing it up to begin with if it’s not political? Why the option of the Nurnberg defense if it’s not political? As bad as these cases are at the “hands on” level, these shmoes are being played as pawns to make it look like they’re doing something. Well, they are, all right..but what they’re doing is, in my opinion, as un American as the torture and the deaths. I thought we established that at Nurnberg and at the Hague. If we’re not going for the Big Boys here, our bring him to account rhetoric on Qadaffi, the trials in Phnom Penh, and haling of Mladic before the tribunal ring hollow..”
Josef, They have got to do something to make you keep your eyes off all the rest of the problems that are going on in our country.
Obama should be real proud of himself, especially when he never even belonged to the Boy Scouts.
saywhat?
June 30th, 2011
6:47 pm
Scout- “The bigger the government the smaller the God.
The bigger the God the smaller the government.”
Is this why the Taliban was so small?
Just admit it. You want to live in a Christian Theocracy. Short of converting to Catholicism and moving to the Vatican, good luck with that, because it will never happen in America.
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
6:47 pm
Dusty — “collard tacos for lunch”
GAG
josef
June 30th, 2011
6:48 pm
DUSTY
Good one…!
Uncle Jed
June 30th, 2011
6:49 pm
Another glitch in Obamacare as the fog rolls in.
The Democrat Speaker of the House:
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said, “But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of controversy.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Older Workers Could Face Cost Disparities in Health Law Glitch
Published June 30, 2011
Associated Press
WASHINGTON — Older adults of the same age and income with similar medical histories would pay sharply different amounts for private health insurance due to what appears to be an unintended consequence of the new health care law.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/30/older-workers-could-face-cost-disparities-in-health-law-glitch/#ixzz1QnmyGM5H
md
June 30th, 2011
6:50 pm
One can certainly see the case being made for war crimes against the “murder” of OBL…..after all, the guy did not receive his day in court. More of those “special” (meaning what the hell are the rules) rules under ‘enemy combatants”…………….the catch all term for not being at “war” and therefore not havig defined rules for the participants. This way, we/they get to make up all the rules as we go……..
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
6:51 pm
Good point, Scooter.
Let me rephrase.
To my knowledge, no administration prior to 2000 – 2008, had ever been implicated with torture scandals or had been known to endorse it.
Left wing management
June 30th, 2011
6:51 pm
md: “And since we are on torture, why is waterboarding considered torture yet tazing unruly US citizens is not?”
A tazing is administered presumably to physically subdue an unruly person while waterboarding aims to break down a person mentally, presumably along with additional threats of violence or harm.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
6:52 pm
Scout, again you continue your shameful reiteration….you continue to state that had a Republican been president that the very same acts of these Seals would be called by “libs” as possible war crimes. So you imply that there is something wrong and that the only reason LIBS do not act is because Obama is a DEM. That is shameful and just low. Sorry you dont like to be called out on a post but just be a man and quit shaming these men who performed their duyt well by making your inferences.
Now if you want to continue to back away and now claim that there was nothing wrong with the acts of the Seal, then you need to acknowledge that “libs” are not holding back from making charges merely because Obama is a DEM.
I know you have stated you right to use any dirty trick to attack Obama….and I have the right to continue to say SHAME and to point out the disgrace in your posts.
poison pen
June 30th, 2011
6:53 pm
getalife
Dusty,
So the answer is no.
” You did not support our President on Libya.
Where is your patriotism?”
Getalife, Did you support Vietnam?
If so, then you don’t have a problem with us losing 58,000.00 soldiers over there, do you.
josef
June 30th, 2011
6:53 pm
ZamVet
“Shades of William Calley”
Unmentionable’s first reaction to this. But, no, I don’t call it courageous. I call it cowardly.
md
June 30th, 2011
6:53 pm
“It is considered torture if you use it when iterrogating a suspect. As for unruly citizens, would you rather they were shot?”
I guess I should have been clearer……as there are many instances were folks have been tazed merely for the convenience to the officer………seems like torture to me…..one has the power over the other……
Uncle Jed
June 30th, 2011
6:54 pm
Debt Increased More Under Geithner Than Under Any Treasury Secretary in U.S. History
(I don’t recall Timmy Turbotax working in the Bush administration, hmmm)
(CNSNews.com) – Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner oversaw the largest increase in the national debt of any Treasury secretary in American history, presiding over a $3.7 trillion increase in the debt.
According to data from the Treasury Department’s Bureau of the Public Debt, the national debt has increased $3,723,575,990,130.10 from Jan. 26, 2009 until June 30, 2011, Geithner’s entire tenure to date as Treasury secretary.
When Geithner took office the total national debt stood at $10.6 trillion. As of June 30, 2011, it had risen to $14.3 trillion.
In fact, the debt accrued under Geithner is greater than all federal debt accrued in the first 204 years of the nation’s history. The national debt did not reach $3.7 trillion until October 1991, according to historical Treasury data that reaches back to 1791.
Geithner, who reportedly may step down from his position soon, has overseen the accrual of more federal debt (in only 2.5 years) than every Treasury secretary combined from Alexander Hamilton to Nicholas Brady…
Run away Timmy, run to your new Wall Street job where you can pick up your stimulus bonus.
Doggone/GA
June 30th, 2011
6:55 pm
“you continue to state that had a Republican been president that the very same acts of these Seals would be called by “libs” as possible war crimes”
And never mind that – practically to a person – the “libs” here have said over and over and over that Bush should have set his sights on going into Afghanistan, getting Bin Laden and getting out.
Real Scooter
June 30th, 2011
6:56 pm
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
6:51 pm
Now that sounds much more like the “real AmVet”.
getalife
June 30th, 2011
6:56 pm
They got scared and overreacted.
cheney was out his mind running from bunker to bunker.
Yoo said it was legal so they ordered it.
w is guilty of war crimes.
He already admitted it.
Doggone/GA
June 30th, 2011
6:56 pm
“as there are many instances were folks have been tazed merely for the convenience to the officer………seems like torture to me”
And officers have been tried an convicted for doing exactly that.
md
June 30th, 2011
6:57 pm
“A tazing is administered presumably to physically subdue an unruly person while waterboarding aims to break down a person mentally, presumably along with additional threats of violence or harm.”
Hmmm…….and there are no instances were folks may be threatened with repeated tazing if cooperation is not granted??
In reality, both are uncomfortable methods of behavior modification with neither resulting in death. I suspect that ideology has more to do with the difference……….
Dusty
June 30th, 2011
6:58 pm
Curious Observer, 6:34
I resent the statement you made that I am in some way responsible for your grandparents death in the gas chamber. Members of my family fought in the war to overcome those who killed Jews and many others in genocide. Your broad indictments of those of us who love and protect this country because it is a haven for all people who love freedom is a scurrilous attack without merit.
I know that our military and the people of America do not desire torture or wars but we have to make decisions that are tough. Perhaps you should keep in mind whether you want to protect this country or whether you want to insult people with whom you disagree or whether you just hate all Republicans.. You ARE insulting.
I will continue to state my opinion of our president. I have judged him mediocre. That is not “disrespect”. That is the simple truth as I see it. Blind obedience never was my “thing”.
Doggone/GA
June 30th, 2011
6:59 pm
“In reality, both are uncomfortable methods of behavior modification with neither resulting in death”
the people who have DIED being tazed might want to take exception to that statement.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/09/05/taser-related-deaths-accelerating/
md
June 30th, 2011
7:02 pm
“the people who have DIED being tazed might want to take exception to that statement.”
Seems you are trying to make my point…….one method is acceptable to those that despise the other………
Soothsayer
June 30th, 2011
7:03 pm
‘War on terror’ set to surpass cost of Second World War
The total cost to America of its wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, plus the related military operations in Pakistan, is set to exceed $4 trillion – more than three times the sum so far authorised by Congress in the decade since the 9/11 attacks.
At $4 trillion and counting, their combined cost is approaching that of the Second World War, put at some $4.1 trillion in today’s prices by the Congressional Budget Office.
“A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you’re talking about some real money.”
Uncle Jed
June 30th, 2011
7:03 pm
Is this what happens when the Casey Anthony defense rests? Where is OJ when he is so badly needed by the armchair prosecutors and wannabe attorneys suffering withdrawal symptoms?
I doubt any of the posters on this topic were there or have anything to go on but hearsay, which is everything until introduced as evidence. It is astonishing that a large segment of the posters here, and the host, have chosen to declare (or at least imply) that our guys are guilty and portray the terrorists as victims. Astonishing!
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
7:03 pm
josef, I think I see the disconnect.
I say courageously, strictly in political terms. But then again, these guys are smart enough to have weighed the possible changes of voters, if any.
In human terms, I agree with you. By not going one single step up the chain of command, Obama/Holder are arguably cowards. I knew, of course, he wasn’t gonna so much as blink at the massive criminal shenanigans that had just occurred in Washington and Wall Street when he arrived at 1600.
And in reality, what could he do?
Embroil the country in endless grand jury indictments and years of trials?
No, he surged into Afghanistan and played his role as he was told.
We don’t want justice.
We just want it to appear we do.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
7:04 pm
say what?
Ah ………………… obviously you fail to see what I was getting at. I’ll try to let John Adams explain it to you.
“Because we have no government, armed with power, capable of contending with human passions, unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
7:04 pm
Good fight:
As I said, you had the last word tonight.
Off to the dog park !
Doggone/GA
June 30th, 2011
7:05 pm
“Seems you are trying to make my point…….one method is acceptable to those that despise the other”
Making your point? Nope. Do they use waterboarding to stop “unruly” citizens? Waterboarding and tazing are in no way comparable, unless USED comparably…which they are not. Yet.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
7:06 pm
md… you seem to be confusing tazing people during a lawful stop or arrest as a method of restraint that is purportedly a lesser act than shooting vs torturing a prisioner in custody as part of a process of interrogation. They are separate and distinct actions. If a tazer is used during interrogation it may very well constitute torture in accordance with its definition. A police officer may in some circumstances lawfully shoot someone during an arrest. A police officer may not shoot someone as an interrogation technique.
getalife
June 30th, 2011
7:06 pm
4.1 trillion plus economic collapse equals lost decade of economic growth and no jobs.
Nice work gop.
godless heathen
June 30th, 2011
7:07 pm
“Oh for starters by prosecuting Karl Rove and other Bush administration officials.”
Karl Rove??? Oh come-on. Senior Advisor and Deputy Chief of Staff. White House Interns were the only ones that he could boss around. And you want to pin war crimes on him? Where do you people get this stuff??
After Obama’s term is over next year, would you like to see some partisan prosecutor put him on trial for murdering innocent Pakistani civilians with Predator drones?
Real Scooter
June 30th, 2011
7:08 pm
Dusty
June 30th, 2011
6:58 pm
Great responce Dusty! And you are right.He wasn’t even talking to me and I felt insulted.
josef
June 30th, 2011
7:09 pm
ZamVet
“We don’t want justice.
We just want it to appear we do.”
And on that point we are in agreement..
And we want to do that to further our own political ends…
Paul
June 30th, 2011
7:09 pm
josef 6:40
I meant ‘parsing’ more for this forum.
The process I described is just the nature of the beast at that level in a large organization. One looks ahead, identifies problem areas and says “give me something to provide legal cover. I do not care about opinions, everyone has one. All I want to know is, can I do this or not?”
I’ve seen it happen – heck, I’ve had just about that statement directed to me.
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
7:11 pm
1811 — “Because we have no government, armed with power, capable of contending with human passions, unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
As if religious morality could possibly make one *immune* to avarice, ambition, revenge and/or licentiousness.
Real Scooter
June 30th, 2011
7:13 pm
4.1 trillion plus economic collapse equals lost decade of economic growth and no jobs.
Nice work gop.
LMAO!!!! Are you trying to change the subject getalife?
Dusty
June 30th, 2011
7:14 pm
Thanks, Scooter.
I shall go and appease my tender feelings with a BLT. Already had fried chicken for lunch. I don’t want to overcompensate here.
Left wing management
June 30th, 2011
7:14 pm
md: “In reality, both are uncomfortable methods of behavior modification with neither resulting in death. I suspect that ideology has more to do with the difference……….”
Again, tazing is done to gain control (subdue) a person, not as a deliberate infliction of harm on someone already in custody. By the way, something being “uncomfortable” has little to do with the real harm inflicted by an action For example: what if someone arrests and blindfolds you, telling you they’re holding a loaded gun to your head. When they pull the trigger, you learn it only had blanks in it. Is that an unacceptable way to treat a prisoner?
Paul
June 30th, 2011
7:17 pm
regarding tazing as torture or not:
Jay cited the section of the US Code dealing with characteristics of torture at 5:52.
Tazing does not meet the criteria.
Left wing management
June 30th, 2011
7:19 pm
heathen: “Karl Rove??? Oh come-on. Senior Advisor and Deputy Chief of Staff. White House Interns were the only ones that he could boss around. And you want to pin war crimes on him? ”
I wasn’t talking about war crimes or torture specifically in that case. I was talking about the Holder JD’s failure to bring ANY members of the Bush administration to justice for what were almost certainly criminally prosecutable. The names Addington and Yoo, along with Rumsfeld, have been mentioned. Rove’s role in the Valerie Plame affair should have been more closely scrutinized, as well, however.
josef
June 30th, 2011
7:20 pm
PAUL
I was aware that’s what you meant, for this forum, and what you said was, in my opinion, what this is…that type of parsing and it will be just that type of parsing that comes to the fore in this “investigation.” The problem, as I see it, is that in that “looking ahead” that nebulous “they” who authorized this type of behavior had their asses covered from the get-go…
In the one at hand here, the point you make–and you are probably correct–is that these two being investigated were acting outside their “official” capacity, off the clock so to speak…therefore no need to look beyond them to the higher ups…
Joe
June 30th, 2011
7:20 pm
Jay I agree with you about as frequently as Halley’s Comet comes into view but I agree with you that anyone who was involved with torture in the name of our country should be prosecuted, and if convicted incarcerated. That includes the Imbecile Bush, “Dick” Cheney, and Donald Rumsfeld.
Real Scooter
June 30th, 2011
7:21 pm
Dusty
June 30th, 2011
7:14 pm
I had wild turkey parmasian for lunch and will have chicken lasanga for supper.I guess you could say I’m in an Italian fowl mood today.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
7:24 pm
Paul, I would disagree with you. Tasers can be used to torture as can pliers. Used in an interrogation the use may meet the definition under Sec. 2340.
A United Nations committee said in 2009 that use of Taser weapons can be a form of torture, in violation of the U.N. Convention Against Torture.
Paul
June 30th, 2011
7:25 pm
josef nix
Your paragraph 2 – yup.
You may have missed the reference a day or two ago – you (and others) were toasted at the first-ever Bookmaniacs reunion!
I’m gonna bring up (at some future point when the usual suspects show up) Jay’s point about how does a socialist country like England produce so many new millionaires? I lost count of the new Maseratis, Rolls Royces and Bentleys I saw. There was a Lamborghini dealer down the street from my hotel – cha-ching!
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
7:25 pm
To Mama’s point,
“When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.”
Paul
June 30th, 2011
7:26 pm
Keep Up
“Paul, I would disagree with you. Tasers can be used to torture as can pliers. ”
I understood the question applied to police officers in the performance of their duties.
Doggone/GA
June 30th, 2011
7:28 pm
“A United Nations committee said in 2009 that use of Taser weapons can be a form of torture, in violation of the U.N. Convention Against Torture.”
and that’s part of the issue. Most things are not, in and of themselves, torture…but how they are used can be. Splashing water on someone’s face is not torture. Waterboarding is.
Paul
June 30th, 2011
7:28 pm
AmVet
And for some people, politics is their religion!
Here in Texas, religion takes another form:
http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=132425&page=1
Real Scooter
June 30th, 2011
7:29 pm
Hey josef,I’ve noticed your use of ZamVet lately,I guess I missed something as usual.
I think I would be more inclined to WhamVet as he puts the whammy on folks that don’t agree with him. LMAO!
josef
June 30th, 2011
7:29 pm
PAUL
I was toasted, eh? I trust with the old Irish one “may be be in heaven a ‘alf hour afore the devil knows ‘e’s dead”
I find your mention of socialist England’s millionaire intriguing…sort of what comes when you spread the wealth, eh?
josef
June 30th, 2011
7:31 pm
Scooter
It was a typo I made one day and he and I agreed that it fit!
Paul
June 30th, 2011
7:32 pm
josef
Well, USinUK and I were in London, and there’s no love lost between the Brits and the Irish… maybe drinking will bridge the gap?
Spreading the wealth creates more millionaires? I think we’re gonna have full-mode EOI fun with that!
Jm
June 30th, 2011
7:33 pm
I have lost any semblance of respect for this administration. And our whole country is going in the toilet for a variety of reasons related to blatant disregard for the law.
Real Scooter
June 30th, 2011
7:35 pm
“When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.”
I was brought up in a religious atmosphere but would have to agree with that statement to a certain degree AmVet.
.
godless heathen
June 30th, 2011
7:39 pm
““When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.””
Eggzellant!
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
7:40 pm
Scoot, you’re right, it’s that damn josef.
He made a typo and I liked it.
So I’ve used it a couple of times, as homage to his clumsy fingers.
WhamVet is great.
I thought of ShaZamVet, but it’s a bit too cartoonish…
Paul, glad to read you’re not hanging out with the hoi polloi.
I haven’t been back since New Years Eve 1976 and damn, if I still don’t miss that lovely Isle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFwOs-jy53A&feature=fvst
Cartersville beer guy
June 30th, 2011
7:44 pm
Paul
June 30th, 2011
7:26 pm
Keep Up
I understood the question applied to police officers in the performance of their duties.
Gwinnett PD officers taser Waffle House employees for sport…till they get caught that is.
Real Scooter
June 30th, 2011
7:47 pm
I thought of ShaZamVet, but it’s a bit too cartoonish
LMAO!!!!
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
7:52 pm
Paul, well since police officers can interrogate, I would say that they can torture. The certainly meet the “under color of law” portion of the definition. But I dont think you and I have any real disagreement on the claim of right to use torture.
Now that beer guy…. I wonder who gets caught…the Waffle House employees or the officers? Frankly there are some tough birds in the Waffle House who could probably be more dangerous with their spatulas than a taser…. food optional, smothered and covered.
Paul
June 30th, 2011
7:52 pm
Beer Guy
Book “Friday Night Lights.” One of the football players graduated, did a tour as a Marine then went to work as a cop. Said it took him about six months to realize 95% of all small-town cops should be allowed nowhere near fireams -
josef
June 30th, 2011
7:54 pm
PAUL
Many, many moons ago a Welsh friend used to tell tales of his and his Irish buddy, Sean Burn’s, escapades in the drear of post War London in the 1950s. Said they went into bar frequented by British sailors, says Sean had a few and stood up in an Erin go bragh mood and proclaims, ” ‘Ey, Tommy, ya know the sun used to ne’er set on the British Empire…now ye kin piss across it,” whereupon he demonstrated his point! According to Ian, the Welshman, “the ass kickin’ twas worth it!”
Paul
June 30th, 2011
7:54 pm
Keep Up
Just be careful… anything taken as dissing Waffle House and @@ will show up and wreak so much havoc upon you even Holder couldn’t save you -
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
7:56 pm
ShaZamVet cartoonish? Now BamWamVet…that is cartoonish. SlamDamvet?
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
7:58 pm
Thanks for the warning Paul…. I will make no reference to the cruel and unusual punishment section of the US Constitution.
Paul
June 30th, 2011
7:59 pm
josef
LOL! Sounds about right.
Spent a few days in Wales – the northern part is absolutely some of the most gorgeous country I’ve ever seen.
Sheep all over the place. Owners put stripes on ‘em to tell who owns ‘em when they get out of their boundaries. So I just had to tell one of the women in the group that a while back one of the red stripe sheep got together with one of the blue stripe sheep and when the baby sheep was born it had a purple stripe and the farmers couldn’t decide who it belonged to…
She spent a bit of time trying to come up with a fair solution -
josef
June 30th, 2011
8:00 pm
good fight
Waffle House waitresses…back in Jackson there was one who, well, best say “please ma’am if you’d be so kind” when placing your order. One night a local cop was razzing her. She leaned over the counter, looked him steady in the eye and says, “I’m from Morton. You know what we do in Morton? We raise chee-ckens in Morton. If you don’t want me to wrang yore scrawny neck like a chee-cken you’ll just set there and eat yore grits…” He did!
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
8:06 pm
josef…I dont doubt it. Why I can even beleive that officer may have been assigned a number, say 1811
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
8:11 pm
Kimmel did a great Bachmann video…. including the Nina, the Pinata and the Santa Maria.
The best part starts at about 3:15
http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/david/jimmy-kimmel-reveals-michele-bachmanns-story
Paul
June 30th, 2011
8:11 pm
Well, a full day of work and jet lag are doing a number on me.
Pleasant evening, all -
md
June 30th, 2011
8:14 pm
One mans trash is another mans treasure…….and I believe that may also apply to torture……..I’d hazard a guess that those on the receiving end may have a different definition than any book or code.
As I said before, ideology……which is basically a given set of definitions…………all man made to suit one’s purposes……..a la abortion.
josef
June 30th, 2011
8:18 pm
PAUL
G’night to ye..see you tomorrow…welcome home…
Good fight…
That’s it! Back in those days when things got slow, the cops would take a break and come and hassle to gay folks. One night one of our d*kes stood up to them. One of them growls, “who the hell do you think you are, b*tch.” She fixed him in stare-for-stare, “I’m a friend of Chee-cken Woman and I’m from Morton, too.” He shrunk to about the size of a pullet! Bet he was 1811!
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
8:19 pm
For left wing management and Jay who spend too much time in the far left think tanks to be creditable.
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/42880435/ns/today-today_news/t/cia-chief-waterboarding-aided-bin-laden-raid/
josef
June 30th, 2011
8:24 pm
good fight
@ 8:11
NOW we know which MAJOR HISTORIAN the Imam’s been reading!
md
June 30th, 2011
8:30 pm
“Lungren: “If that were the case, would it make the action that we took against Osama bin Laden illegal?”
Holder: “No. I mean, I think that in terms of the attenuation, to the extent that it was assumed that that were true, the attenuation between those acts that might have been problematic and the action that was taken just two days ago was sufficiently long so that the action would still be considered legal.” ”
So Holder thinks “time” is the answer……………that must mean we can torture……wait a specified period of time….and then act on information gleaned from torture and all is hunky doory…………..
Justification through definitions…………………………
josef
June 30th, 2011
8:34 pm
md
Parse THAT! Jeez, talk about a pmpous ass…somebody needs to take away that boy’s thesaurus.
Joe Stalin
June 30th, 2011
8:39 pm
two killed is a tragedy, 20 million is a statistic
md
June 30th, 2011
8:44 pm
Jo…yep.
Me thinks what goes around will eventually come around………and after the world court gets through playing their games, we are going to have an awful lot of folks confined to this country……….
getalife
June 30th, 2011
8:51 pm
Enter your comments here
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
8:52 pm
Where are all the lib’s tonight? Must be scurrying around the far left think tanks gathering up talking points like rats looking for cheese.
getalife
June 30th, 2011
8:52 pm
Holder will give us the old “not enough evidence” conclusion.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
8:55 pm
josef…it was an unique history. I thought I saw a quick foto of you in the report
If we all post MORTON at the same time when 1811 is here, I bet the result will be Niagra Falls
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
8:56 pm
Why Recon…it looks like your “opinions” are just insults. More shame for you.
Joe
June 30th, 2011
8:57 pm
There really is no debate Jay. Only far left freaks like yourself still won’t admit that harsh interogation works as evidense with bin Ladens death. Honestly though since you loons believe its ok to kill babys but not make a terrorist unconfortable then how could you be taken seriously?
BADA BING
June 30th, 2011
8:59 pm
@AJC ….One of the Eddie Long sex accusers arrested in Miami in a BMW, with large amount of pot, and a weapon. Looks like he put that Bishop Long hush-hush money to good use.
Soothsayer
June 30th, 2011
9:02 pm
Glenn Beck: good bye and good riddance!
josef
June 30th, 2011
9:06 pm
good fight..
My favorite one from that routine was…”maybe we should stop telling kids that anybody can grow up to be president…!”
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
9:06 pm
Keep up,” insults”? I never fire on personally unless fired upon personally. If my comments directed at the left wing ideology collectively upsets you, so be it as it’s all part of the blog game.
getalife
June 30th, 2011
9:09 pm
Yeah Joe,
And you cons are against killing obl because a dem President got him.
Can’t take you seriously indeed.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
9:09 pm
“Glenn Beck: good bye and good riddance!”
You should keep your seat belt buckled as he’ll still be around.
jack bull
June 30th, 2011
9:11 pm
who’s on trial, the guys that cut dan pearl’s head off?
Fred
June 30th, 2011
9:11 pm
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
9:06 pm
Keep up,” insults”? I never fire on personally unless fired upon personally. If my comments directed at the left wing ideology collectively upsets you, so be it as it’s all part of the blog game.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Holy crap is THAT lie rich. One needs only to go to last night to poke holes in that self righteous BS.
josef
June 30th, 2011
9:12 pm
Goodgye, Glenn
That queen got on my last gay nerve…
oldguy
June 30th, 2011
9:13 pm
1. Two less probable Muslim terrorists?? Boo Hoo
2. Jay, “that is not the country to which I pledge allegiance,” I thought you only pledged allegiance to Chairman Obama….when the change?
3. OMG!! there are casualities in a war on Terrorists!! How could that be!! Nobody told me there would be casualities!!
4. Torture – i see Jay is careful not to claim that term to himself – but he does use it – Well, to me watching BHO speak is torture and there is no question that watching “The View” is absolute torture!!
As most of you know but fail to mention the US and its allies killed MILLIONS of innocent civilians, on purpose, with firebombing in WW2. The developers of that strategy remain honored.
So I will repeat what I have said before “Kill them all, let Allah sort them out!”
p.s. should Holder be tried for the death of the border patrol agent killed with a gun supplied , on purpose, by the ATF??
josef
June 30th, 2011
9:16 pm
FRED
Parlant de la torture, comment ça va, Mec?
Fred
June 30th, 2011
9:16 pm
I love Alzheimer rants……..
Fred
June 30th, 2011
9:18 pm
It goes well Josef lol.
jm
June 30th, 2011
9:19 pm
Sad to see Obama struggling for money. That’s what happens when you abdicate responsibility for balancing the federal budget.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
9:20 pm
But you are right, I should just let the varnished brains alone. Nothing ever penetrates lol. Them minds are closed tighter than a nuns pu……. dang. I can’t type THAT can I?
josef
June 30th, 2011
9:20 pm
Fred..
Alzheimer Rants…that’s Ayn’s cuddin’, right?
oldguy
June 30th, 2011
9:21 pm
How about lets putting “War Hero” Fastboat John Kerry on trial for murder and war crimes??
He testified, under oath, before a congressional committee that he shot an unarmed teenaged boy in the back as he ran away from a site of an ambush on the Mekong river in Viet Nam.
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
9:24 pm
oldguy — “How about lets putting “War Hero” Fastboat John Kerry on trial for murder and war crimes?? He testified, under oath, before a congressional committee that he shot an unarmed teenaged boy in the back as he ran away from a site of an ambush on the Mekong river in Viet Nam.”
If you can find a Federal prosecutor to take it on, go for it.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
9:25 pm
Freddy@9:11, well now you trying to get nice with midori by trying to low key a ball less dig directed at me. You’re a pathetic self described fat body. Oh! BTW, this isn’t a dating blog so you’re out of luck unless Jays blog affords you some king of self gratification outlet. Drink some more loud mouth, you’ll be passing out on the floor scoshi scoshi.
josef
June 30th, 2011
9:27 pm
Cat fight! Cat fight!
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
9:27 pm
Recon, Fred seems to like girls and I don’t think he’s into abuse.
You may want to adjust your game or else you’re going to go home alone and unloved again tonight.
oldguy
June 30th, 2011
9:27 pm
Hey Joe,
no way!! And that is as it should be, IT WAS WAR!! SH$$ happens!
Fred
June 30th, 2011
9:28 pm
LOL Josef, the methhead heroine of the Republican party, nice pun.
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
9:30 pm
oldguy — “Hey Joe, no way!! And that is as it should be, IT WAS WAR!! SH$$ happens!”
So what’s your issue here, then?
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
9:31 pm
Joe Mama, you claim to be a handicapped veteran so I’ll give you a pass not knowing when, where or how you got hit assuming you did. Fred’s a blow hard and not worthy of the same consideration.
oldguy
June 30th, 2011
9:32 pm
Recon,
As a Vietnam vet…. you know like I do that Innocent people are NEVER injured in a war!
Reguards, hope all is well!!!!
Bruno
June 30th, 2011
9:32 pm
josef–Will try to get back to you this weekend. Time has been short lately getting the new office ready along with training for the Ptree RR.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSuv4zZPqwY
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
9:33 pm
Off Topic — Prince Harry can have his pick of women in the UK and probably any young single woman in the world he sets his mind to, and this is his latest squeeze?
http://blogs.ajc.com/news-to-me/2011/06/30/prince-harry-dating-lingerie-model-cousin/?cp=1
Quick, tell his dad and his brother to school him on this subject.
getalife
June 30th, 2011
9:34 pm
beck would say anything to get paid.
Amazing how many cons bought his act.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
9:35 pm
John Fairy or excuse me Kerry was put down by pretty much all of the swift boat command who served with that candy a$$.
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
9:36 pm
Recon — “Joe Mama, you claim to be a handicapped veteran”
I’ve got a DD-214 and a VA rating letter. That’s all that matters.
“so I’ll give you a pass not knowing when, where or how you got hit assuming you did.”
I didn’t get hit. I’ve never claimed to be disabled as a result of *combat,* but my disability *is* service-connected. Bear in mind that disabled ‘Nam vets who were exposed to Agent Orange are classified as noncombat disabled, too.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
9:36 pm
Hey recon, it’s alway nice to have a stalker who has a man crush on me, but if I was ever going to bat for the other team I think I’d hit on Josef. Oh crap, THEN I’d have unmentionable to deal with. Never mind.
Anyway varnish head, you will provoke and when you get your ass handed to you, you will go tell the teacher and demand that someone be banned. You ARE a nutless bully. You dish it out but when you get it back you whine like a little girl and go tell on someone. Semper Fi you REMF wannabe lol.
oh, and it’s FUN being fat. That means I can be jolly. And I’m having a JOLLY good time right now. You on the othe rhand are ate up with hatred and bitterness.
Smooches to you cupcake.
oldguy
June 30th, 2011
9:36 pm
My issue?
People like Jay, who have never seen action in a war, seem to think its all clean and black and white; its not, you do what you are told and try to lookout for your own and your buddy’s A$$.
josef
June 30th, 2011
9:37 pm
BRUNO
May not be able to hand you that drink…kids are talking about family barbecue for the 4th and given the crush in the neighborhood, we probably will go spend the night with one of them…
TruthBe
June 30th, 2011
9:38 pm
Hey why don’t you ask Eric holder about his criminal role in the murder of those 84 women, chidren, and babies in Waco and Ruby Ridge? And his role in the murder of Sec.Ron Brown during the Clinton years. What about his role in protecting his people the Black (Pussies) Panthers? Pardens for all democrat supporter with big checking accounts by Eric Holder and company. Eric Holder is acriminal and should be in jail period.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
9:40 pm
old guy, cool as a monsoon rain. Hope you are too. Semper Fi. BTW…we say say Semper Fi to our Army buddies who we respect for also fighting that God forsaken war.
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
9:40 pm
Recon — “John Fairy or excuse me Kerry was put down by pretty much all of the swift boat command who served with that candy a$$.”
Actually, one of the officers with whom he served and who was involved in that swiftboating liars’ group was a former CO of Kerry’s who put him in for a valor award, gave him a glowing evaluation report and who *campaigned* for Kerry in Massachusetts prior to Kerry’s run for the Presidency.
When that information came out, said officer quietly withdrew from the group.
And as far as candy-butt goes, I’d guess that the safest post in Vietnam was a lot more dangerous than the hottest post in Texas or Alabama. I don’t slag on any combat veteran’s service, whether I like them personally or not. Maybe you should try it.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
9:40 pm
And quit with the whining vietnam vet whining crap recon. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. You VM vets are the whiniest bunch to ever “serve” this Country. Get over yourselves already. 364 and a wake up? PUH LEASE. You brought more shame and disgrace on the US Military than any other time than the Cav did in the Indian wars. Smoking dope, fragging each other……… undisciplined rabble of draftees.
Whuined so much that there was a “Vietnam wall” LONG before there was a WWII memorial. And there STILL isn’t a Korean War memorial. Now THOSE boys in Korea went through some REAL horror. But you are too myopic to know about that.
Bruno
June 30th, 2011
9:41 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl6nl8deFVk
oldguy
June 30th, 2011
9:41 pm
HYey Josef,
Can you at least sneak a glass of red for the 4th??
josef
June 30th, 2011
9:42 pm
Unmentionble dit: “Vous pouvez l’avoir. Délivrez-moi de ma torture, je vous en prie!”.
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
9:42 pm
I’m out — everyone have a fine weekend and DRIVE SAFELY.
TruthBe
June 30th, 2011
9:42 pm
getalife, Please get a life. You know the democrats are sorry good for nothing low lifes that want the total destruction of America as we know it. Just like your empty suit obama.
ANYBODY but obama 2012
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
9:44 pm
Joe Mama,
Read “Unfit for Command” you might learn something. “Winter Soldiers” do not deserve my respect. I think you should back off unless you served there.
Whaheema
June 30th, 2011
9:44 pm
Now don’t get all upset Obama didn’t make this decision. In fact he has hardly made any decisions since he decided to fund raise full time.
Bruno
June 30th, 2011
9:46 pm
May not be able to hand you that drink…
The highlight of the run for me is to get sprinkled with some Holy Water by the Catholic Priest somewhere around the 3 mile mark. Takes it all to the next level.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
9:46 pm
A “dick” :
“( Brit ) clever dick: a person who is obnoxiously opinionated or self-satisfied; know-all”
“a stupid person, usually a male (rude and derogatory.) : “What stupid dick put this thing here in the way?”
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dick
Just sayin’
oldguy
June 30th, 2011
9:47 pm
Hey Fren,
You live in Outer Mongolia? There is a Korean war memorial on the national mall!!!
p.s. we did spend 1 Day in SF when I got back from VN, a buddy and I went down to the park at the end of Haight St found a stoned hippy (Like you) and beat the sh$$ out of him!! Great fun!!
MrLiberty
June 30th, 2011
9:47 pm
All of the top officials in both the Bush and Obama adminstrations need to stand trial for war crimes. Holder’s move is just to pacify the worthless democrats who were correctly against Bush’s war but now roll over while Obama serves out Bush’s 3rd term. The path for america is clear if we ever wish to regain our morality as a nation.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
9:48 pm
Fred, you never served in the military and those of us who did see through you like a plate glass window. Now get the hell off my posts and curl up with whatever booze bottle keeps your weak ego alive. I’m done with you.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
9:48 pm
Josef: LOL. I’ll get back to Unmentionable. Is there a dowry?
josef
June 30th, 2011
9:48 pm
old guy
Not to worry…I was going to walk down the street and pass Bruno a drink during the Road Race…believe me, there’ll be plenty of the red…if a little is good, then a lot is real good, right?
John Galt
June 30th, 2011
9:50 pm
It takes people willing to do some pretty unspeakable things to keep our nation safe, and it always has, whether you liberals like it or not.
oldguy
June 30th, 2011
9:51 pm
10-4 Josef!!
Over and out
Liberals are scum
June 30th, 2011
9:53 pm
I want to see some real news like an investigation into the fake birth certificate released by teh WH on April 27th…
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
9:54 pm
What a tradition, July 4th and the Peachtree.
Meanwhile
Time marches on and on
And the strength to run may soon be gone
Now I watch the young ones coming
And it’s on their legs I’m running
Into the arms of my god
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXv67Ar2NL0
Fred
June 30th, 2011
9:54 pm
Oldguy, I never was a stoned hippie and you could never beat me in your wildest wet dream. I was a PROFESSIONAL soldier, not a draftee such as you and “recon.”
We trained with REAL “recon” in jump school, well light-weight jump school, that static line stuff at 1500 feet. I don’t recall seeing any of them put their knees to the breeze at 30,000 feet though. We did THAT with SEALS.
and when I got back from the war, I didn’t find some stoned 102 lb hippie to beat up so I could feel like a man. I hunted down Chuck Norris and whipped HIS ass. THEN we had a beer and he called me sir.
josef
June 30th, 2011
9:55 pm
FRED
Dowry? Yeah, but it’s under Napoleanic Code!
.
GOOD FIGHT
Ready? 1-2-3 MORTON!
And here comes TruthBe…guess he’s filling in for Redneck on the minstrel show circuit tonight
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
9:55 pm
Headlines:
“Ending corp jet tax break would save less than 1/10th of 1% of Obama’s target…” (Can you say class warfare?)
“Sen. Rubio Blasts Obama: ‘Left-Wing Strong Man’ ”
“TOO MUCH GOLF?”
“President flubs daughter’s age — twice…”
josef
June 30th, 2011
9:56 pm
FRED
Oooohhh! You’re sooo butch!
Bruno
June 30th, 2011
9:57 pm
Where’s JamVet tonight?? I heard there is a “name the Am” contest going on. I’ve been saving up this tune for him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH4DRdfW8ww
Fred
June 30th, 2011
9:58 pm
Recon: You will never be done with me. You are a blowhard REMF who spent all your time as a draftee in Saigon washing dishes or REAL Marines underwear. You can’t “see through me” because had you served when I did you would have been so far in the rear you would have not even SEEN me. LOL I love varnish brained blowhards.
Todays equivalent to you is the current sacred cow: The Single Mom.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
9:58 pm
AmVet:
In case you missed this earlier. The truth is finally out.
HEADLINE: “Harvard: July 4th Parades Are Right-Wing”
“Democratic political candidates can skip this weekend’s July 4th parades. A new Harvard University study finds that July 4th parades energize only Republicans, turn kids into Republicans, and help to boost the GOP turnout of adults on Election Day.
“Fourth of July celebrations in the United States shape the nation’s political landscape by forming beliefs and increasing participation, primarily in favor of the Republican Party,” said the report from Harvard.
“The political right has been more successful in appropriating American patriotism and its symbols during the 20th century. Survey evidence also confirms that Republicans consider themselves more patriotic than Democrats. According to this interpretation, there is a political congruence between the patriotism promoted on Fourth of July and the values associated with the Republican party. Fourth of July celebrations in Republican dominated counties may thus be more politically biased events that socialize children into Republicans,” write Harvard Kennedy School Assistant Professor David Yanagizawa-Drott and Bocconi University Assistant Professor Andreas Madestam.”
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
10:01 pm
Fred/Recon:
We can solve this very easily and ease up on our brother veterans:
Scout : 0311, India Company, 3rd Batallion., 4th Marines, Vietnam – DMZ area, 1967-68
Fred: __________________________________________________________________
Recon: _________________________________________________________________
Bruno
June 30th, 2011
10:02 pm
We trained with REAL “recon” in jump school
I was a stoned hippie. We trained with REAL Kauna bud.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
10:03 pm
Well freds drunk out of his rabbit assed mind and hallucinating again. Other thing to do so Taps and good night y’all. Happy Independence Day weekend and stay safe.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
10:04 pm
Josef; You are what every washing machine needs. An Agitator lol.
I remember the Napoleonic Code thing. (You explained it to me a few months ago).
I’m not a good agitator. I don’t want “recon” to stroke out or have a heart attack so I’ll leave him alone pretty soon. Besides, he’s such an easy one to agitate, it’s like shooting fish in a barrel. I find it amusing that he thought he would change his name and no one would know who he was.
It would be different if, like Scout, he actually had something USEFUL to say or even a sense of humor (or a sense of honor). I can respect Scout. I don’t even think about “recon” (or whatever he changes his name to) unless I feel like agitating him.
I’m so bad.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
10:08 pm
!811, 0311 Mike Company 3rd. Bn. 6th. Marines, 2533 2nd. Recon , 2533 and team leader Bravo Co. 3rd Recon Bn. Vietnam. In 61-67
Bruno
June 30th, 2011
10:08 pm
Jam @ 9:54–Howdy, brother! Enjoyed the TR number, great guitar work. I think of this song often when I’m running:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXYl5NrHPb4
DwayneL
June 30th, 2011
10:11 pm
If torturing these scumbags gives us valuable info then it’s worth it!
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
10:12 pm
“I’m so bad” the only thin about you that’s bad is probably your breath. Quick now within 60 seconds answer Scouts question. dates of service, where, when. units and MOS.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
10:14 pm
Scout: In all seriousness, I can’t tell you. Sorry.
Let’s just say I done some stuff I ain’t real proud of but it had to be done. I can understand WHY those guys being tried did what they did and when I say they need to “face the piper” I know exactly what that means and what the ramifications are. Sometimes when you get an “illegal order” you don’t disobey it. It’s a conscious decision. You KNOW that the chair warming SOB who gave it will never be held accountable but it has to be done so you do it.
What gets me though is that SOB in the link Jay posted earlier was SMILING and posing for pictures. For that alone he should fry. Hell, had I been there I would have shot him myself. No rational human being ENJOYS crap like that. You were a sniper. Do you gloat over your kills? no it was something that had to be done, you were good at it, and you did it. AND you survived. I dunno about you chief, but I still have dreams I would rather not have and memories I would choose to abandon.
It is what it is.
on another note: About that Harvard article? Does that mean that Harvard has let the military back into their school and is allowing ROTC there again? Those whiny leftist bastiches (along with Yale) tossed them out. I hadn’t heard or read that they reversed course.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
10:15 pm
Scout, times up, fred’s a fraud.
Bruno
June 30th, 2011
10:16 pm
Another great “running” song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BsTF22SPyM
DawgDad
June 30th, 2011
10:16 pm
“However, if U.S. officials tortured individuals to the point of death, well, that is not the country to which I pledge allegiance, and was not within the bounds of any standards that have so far been made public. We are Americans and Americans aren’t supposed to do that kind of thing. The people we fight may do those things; that’s one reason we fight them.”
I totally agree with you Jay, maybe the only time I’ll ever be able to say this. However, Holder is grandstanding and his pronouncement is pure political theater. The only responsible course of action would be to investigate and if necessary prosecute or discipline VERY quietly.
Send in the drones, the bombers, the missiles, and the assassins while we all sit home and watch on the nightly news. We all pledged allegiance to that, right? Waging war has become a manner of convenience and as such is a waged as a matter of convenience. There is precious little honor left in the leadership of this country, yet boundless honor in the soldiers who get sent to the front. I’m 100% for respecting and protecting the lives of our soldiers, but 100% opposed to the West and the rulers in the Middle East ever-increasingly hiding behind American skirts.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
10:20 pm
Here ya go Bruno:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJYRtOPUonA
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
10:21 pm
Recon: Ooo Rah!
Fred: I bet you were in S.O.G. then (Special Operations Group). I know you guys had your service classified.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
10:22 pm
Nice post Dawgdad
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
10:23 pm
We’ll try this again,
Oh scout BOO HOO, I can’t tell you. What a POS.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
10:25 pm
I bet these broads wouldn’t try this in Kabul !
Headline: “No Road, No Sex, Women Tell Town; Men Respond with Hunger Strike”
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/lifestyle/2011/06/30/no-road-no-sex-women-tell-town-men-respond-with-hunger-strike/?test=latestnews
josef
June 30th, 2011
10:26 pm
DawgDad
@ 10:16
We may have crossed wires here in the past, but well said and much my own thoughts on the matter. A tip of the hat, sir…
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
10:26 pm
1811, Ooo Rah! a fungus among us.
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
10:30 pm
1811 @9:58 pm.
It’s all good.
Awesome groove to boogie to in that DB number, huh B?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuLZrZLdQpM
Fred
June 30th, 2011
10:31 pm
Scout: I’m younger than you. When I was serving, what you are describing was called USSOCOM. It still may be. I tend to avoid “reunions” and keeping track of what is going on.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
10:34 pm
recon: I’m done playing with you. You can stand down.
Scout@ 10:25: Holy crap, the men are doing a “hunger strike?” LOl Yeah right. Honey isn’t cooking for them anymore. Besides we know what they are “hungry” for.
Nice article. Gave me a chuckle.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
10:36 pm
Shame on you Amvet for that truncated version of one of the most beautiful songs ever recorded. No soup for you.
Bruno
June 30th, 2011
10:41 pm
Solid @ 10:20, Fred.
Shame on you Amvet for that truncated version of one of the most beautiful songs ever recorded.
Still gotta give Am an A for taste for “Beginnings”, even if it is the “radio” version.
Bruno
June 30th, 2011
10:42 pm
Later guys
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
10:42 pm
Okay pu-se I’ll stand down because you’re not worth it anyway..
buck@gon
June 30th, 2011
10:44 pm
This effort goes hand in hand with obamas reelection kickoff and its only theme: ‘keep in mind how evil conservatives are. Like a lonely boy fighting pretend foes, little barry conjures up real straw men to keep the public focused on the bad, instead of little barry’s nonexistent good.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
10:47 pm
LOL recon I just chastised you for pu se (or whatever it was) but when I typed the real word it got auto snagged. I stand corrected. THAT word does NOT get past the auto snagger.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
10:47 pm
Recon:
I’m still not sure about Fred. He says he is younger so we’re not talking Nam anyway.
I was trying to see if he would bite on S.O.G. (Special Operations Group).
Most fakes do !
However, as you remember it was NEVER “Special Operations Group” ………… that’s sounds more macho but it was always “Studies and Observations Group”.
A lot of fakes will give themselves away on that one. It’s worked for me before.
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
10:47 pm
I know guys, gimme a break. I’m multi-tasking with Thursday night ADD.
And I too bid you all a fond adieu…
MrLiberty
June 30th, 2011
10:48 pm
Why don’t you all put it back in your pants, stop the measuring contest and answer this – How is it that during times of war, when the government sends our troops everywhere BUT america to supposedly defend our freedoms, the american people LOSE more freedoms than during peacetime? There is always the claim that soldiers “protect our freedoms”, “defend our freedoms”, “give us our freedoms” (that one is the best since our creator gives us our freedoms), and similar such messages. And yet, when the war ends, we are ALWAYS worse off on the freedom scale.
The N. Koreans were in no position to take away our freedoms. The N. Vietnamese nor the Viet Cong were in no position to take away our freedoms. The same with the Somalis, the Panamanians, the Serbians, the Afghanis, the Iraqis, the Yemenis, the Pakistanis…you get the picture. Only the US government has EVER been in a position to take away our freedoms, and while our military has been following the unconstitutional orders of our presidents, the US government has been doing exactly that.
Look at the assults on free speech in the 60’s and 70’s, the virtual destruction of the constitution and bill of rights under Bush and Obama, the creation of the totalitarian TSA, the roving wiretaps, the torture, the claimed right of the president to assassinate even american citizens without trial, due process, or constitutional protections. And these are just the tip of the iceberg.
Not only have we not won a war since 1945, but clearly we have lost every war for liberty that was fought on the home front during those times.
If soldiers are supposed to be protecting our freedoms, defending our freedoms, etc. then they have been doing a seriously lousy job. No doubt they even have come back from the wars and voted for most of the same folks that were taking freedoms away from americans while they were overseas. So their defense was not even effective at the ballot booth.
Maybe we finally need to consider that the US military is fighting the wrong enemies of freedom. Clearly the only enemies that can ACTUALLY take away our freedoms are right here in america and they are being willingly elected.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
10:51 pm
Fred, You don’t get past the honest test. Go get nice with your bottle of make believe. I’m through wasting time with a C.A like you.
BADA BING
June 30th, 2011
10:54 pm
You people make me sick, where do you think your good life comes from? Our soldiers have an impossible job to do. People die every day so you can have your morning coffee. Kids work in sweat shops to make your running shoes. That gold watch you are wearing comes from the sweat and broken backs of miners in some far off land making a few bucks a day. You don’t want to know what is done in your name, so that you can live better that 99% of the Earth’s population. Just go to bed tonite and say Thank You to whoever your God is, and be thankful that you are on the right side of the bullets.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
10:55 pm
1811, when a guy can’t say his dates of service, MOS and units they served with that’s enough for me to do an about face on a fraud.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
10:56 pm
Recon:
I’m afraid you are correct.
Missions are classified but not the rest.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
10:58 pm
BADA BING, good thoughts for all of us to consider.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
10:59 pm
BADA:
One of my first memories in life is of my Dad sitting in a metal wash tub on the back porch of our little house in a holler in W.Va. I remember thinking why is he so black. Obviously, I had no concept of a coal mine.
The people of this nation have become spoiled, weak, arrogant and lazy.
This does not bode well for our future.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
10:59 pm
Scout: I’m not a scholar but I thought during the Nam days it was SOC (Special Operations Command).
But anyways, I don’t need your belief or lack thereof. The truth is the truth. It is what it is. I don’t need reaffirmation. I am what I am and I take responsibility for everything that I’ve done. I made a conscious choice. I was told the ramification and unless things have changed, those two guys being tried were told as well. I don’t know but I would BET that they are being tried because they were sadistic SOB’s and enjoyed it so much they posed for pictures such as the one Jay linked to. Burn them.
Are the pictures of YOU Scout with your foot in the chest of a body you sniped (assassinated if you were part of that group) from 1000 meters away with your rifle cradled like a deer hunter and a smile on your face? I didn’t think so.
Did YOU witness things that perhaps were a bit illegal? Did you take pictures of them? Are you PROUD of them? As an honorable man and a Christian, I can’t believe you were either proud nor happy. Nor do they sit well even now. But you did what you had to do. It was nothing to be happy about or proud (other than the technical expertise of the shot). But either way, nothing to laugh and brag about. Nor do you HERE laugh and brag about what you did. Taking human life deliberately is serious business to well adjusted people. You learn to live with it, but you don’t LIKE it.
Damn. I am talking too much. Oh I know:
Kill them all and let God sort them out. Hoo Rah.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
11:00 pm
“STRAUSS-KAHN SEX CASE: Accuser’s Credibility Under Fire”
Can anyone say Duke Lacrosse Team ?
Fred
June 30th, 2011
11:03 pm
Bada Bing @ 10:54. Well spoken. Best post you have EVER made and trust me, I LOVE your satirical ones. That one eclipses them all.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
11:07 pm
Fred:
I am not trying to mess with you ………… it’s just that everything here is pretty much anonymous anyway. No “need” to be so secretive.
No one knows who you are.
If you were C.I.A. ……….. saying it here doesn’t matter.
And yes ………… my USMC training and weapon of assignment in Nam was a Remington model 700, .308/7.62mm (match ammunition when we could get it), bull barrell, Redfield 3X9 power scope (with range finder) and of course my trusty .45 as backup. My spotter carried his M-16 and the spotting scope.
Just sayin’
BADA BING
June 30th, 2011
11:07 pm
Just a little emotional on this holiday weekend. My life is going so well, and then I read all the articles on the economic mess and all the suffering. I wish everyone could enjoy life as I am.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
11:07 pm
!811, If we stay on the blog much longer fred will be so far in his cups that we’ll be praying that he has someone in his home to call 911. We just can’t help him and he appears to be Klondike, so I’m out.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
11:13 pm
You got me recon, i’m a poser. I ain’t done nothing but drink beer and bad mouth my Country since 1963. i’m not a certified REMF like you.
Although if your creds are correct you are neither a REMF nor a draftee but a true bonafied Marine. I would have never guessed as you seemed to have lost the “honor’ part.
Paulo977
June 30th, 2011
11:14 pm
MrLiberty
“Only the US government has EVER been in a position to take away our freedoms, and while our military has been following the unconstitutional orders of our presidents, the US government has been doing exactly that.”
Isn’t it the truth!!!!!!
oldguy
June 30th, 2011
11:18 pm
Hey 1811,
you know the newswhores are now bitching about the model 700 having a defective trigger assembly!! After 50 years in service and several million in production. What idiots! They are trying to sue Remington!!
P.s. I trained on the M14 At Ft Jackson, SC A-10-2 Tank Hill!! I liked it much better than the M16 (but I was a trained hunter thanks to my dad who bought me my first firearm at age 8 (Savage 410 single barrel shotgun). I knew how to shoot when I went into the service!!
A lot of the draftees from big cities didn’t know which end the bullet came out!!
Fred
June 30th, 2011
11:20 pm
Whatever Scout if you believe that. NOTHING is anonymous on the web. If I had the skill set (I don’t) I could go through this site and get your name and address. I know people (hackers) who can but while I’ve wanted to learn, I haven’t. I’ve watched it done, but I never learned it.
Why didn’t they give you match rounds all the time? When I was in we shot nothing but. Even for practice.
Also, when I was in, the Marines called their “snipers” “designated marksmen.” Did they dio that when you were in as well or did they call you snipers?
md
June 30th, 2011
11:21 pm
“Only the US government has EVER been in a position to take away our freedoms”
With an economy dependent on foreign oil, that freedom can easily be replaced with servitude……or very poor free peasants……….
Josef
June 30th, 2011
11:22 pm
Bada….
Aw, be happy…the spite value alone is worth the effort! Seriously, though, there’s enough misery without creating it
oldguy
June 30th, 2011
11:24 pm
Obviously Fred, if he is who he claims to be, didn’t have the pleasure of coming back into the country through SFO like most Nam Vets did; and getting spit on and called “baby Killers” as a welcome home greating.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
11:25 pm
Oldguy? Did you ever get a chance to fire a Garand? Or YOU Scout? I’ve heard that those were very damn accurate.
I was always partial to the M16 myself as a portable all around weapon. I generally used it single shot but I liked the option of fully auto if I needed it. For sniping I liked the Barret.
Always wanted to fire the M14.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
11:29 pm
No old guy, I didn’t. That was a travesty. Not as much as being a slave but a travesty nonetheless. But it served it’s purpose as well.
NOW even though we are embroiled in two unpopular wars that crap ain’t happening. Soldiers aren’t blamed for being soldiers. Be proud that you were the reason for that instead of whining that it happened. Don’t blame me, instead punch the next yuppie YOUR age you see in the face lol.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
11:32 pm
oldguy,
The Stoner M-16 was a piece of s$it when McNammra and the DOD forced it on the military, Marines fighting in the hill wars and Operation Union and Union II in the Ge Son Valley took 50% casualties attributed to the malfunction of the M-16. It was then the military insisted on chrome plated chambers and then chrome plated upper receivers.
BADA BING
June 30th, 2011
11:33 pm
Happy Trails, see you on the music blog.
oldguy
June 30th, 2011
11:33 pm
Fred,
The Garand was way too heavy, and Kicked like a mule. As an MP we were originally issued M1 Carbines – lots of fun but no range. The M 14 was a great compromise!
For the M16 – shot like a 22 Long Rifle as far as kick but I thought the 223 was way too loght for the jungle undergrowth; we needed a heavier bullet to punch through the greenery; plus ot jammed to easily!
oldguy
June 30th, 2011
11:37 pm
Hey Fred,
the next ex-hippy I see is, unfortunately, my son-in-law’s father!!
I got over it long ago, we are good friends and still talk about SF in the 60’s (he loved the place but his “earth mother” wife turned into a real bitch. He has been divorced for 30 years!!
oldguy
June 30th, 2011
11:41 pm
Fred,
You can buy an M1 through the Civilian Marksmanship Program for about 250$ (i think). They are brought back from Korea but the anti-gun crowd is trying to stop the program.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
11:44 pm
Fred:
Back then we were “Scout-Snipers” and we worked out of a Sniper Platoon in the Headquarters Company of each regiment. I was a grunt in India 3/4 for about five months then got transferred to the 3rd Marine Regimental Sniper Platoon. They would pair us out to the grunt companies as needed.
Like most supplies at that time (believe it or not) match ammo was hard to come by. I would carry about 30 rounds of it and then throw a 100 round machine gun belt (same caliber) in my backpack in case it really hit the fan.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
11:45 pm
oldguy, I shot the later versions. (the A2 and then the A3) so the jamming problem was fixed. Agree with the heavier bullet though. Never really understood the A-3. Single shot or 3 round burst. I want either single shot or I need all of them full auto.
I’d love to play with some of the stuff they have out now. I used some of the prototypes but I’m sure the new stuff is much better. Hell the night vision stuff Scout used was WAY primitive by my time so I’m sure what they have now makes the stuff I used look like crap.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
11:45 pm
Fred/old guy:
Check this out ……………… ;o)
http://www.military.com/video/specialties-and-personnel/snipers/can-you-spot-the-sniper/803843237001/?ESRC=marine.nl
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
11:51 pm
I was among the last training platoons on Parris Island to go through boot camp with and qualify with the M-1. Shortly after reporting into my first permanent duty infantry company I was assigned as a BAR man in the fire team. A consequence of being promoted to PFC out of boot camp and being 150Ilb dripping wet. Shortly thereafter we traded in our weapons for the M-14 and my assigned weapon was the M-14 modified for full automatic fire It was a beauty except for one thing you had to continually check that the gas cylinder plug was secure in the weapon. Later in Recon I was assigned a 45 cal. grease gun and later the M-16. I preferred all the previous weapons to the M-16. I was in 61-67.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
11:51 pm
old guy:
I hate to tell you this but I think there is real validity to the 700 issue.
Check this out : http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/17/eveningnews/main301947.shtml
Back in late 1967 I had an AC with my 700 when the mighy mite I was riding in lurch. I swear I didn’t touch a thing. Cost me 1,000 sandbags.
I worried about that for years until I read the above article two years ago.
Just sayin’
Fred
June 30th, 2011
11:51 pm
oldguy: I’ve looked on line for some decent M1’s (the Garand not the carbine) and they are going for about a grand. I’m not THAT interested lol.
Scout: I have a tendency to forget. The navy has ALWAYS treated the Marines like crap and the Marines get the cast off equipment and supplies. It’s a bit different now for specialized units. Even for recon. Crap, I say “now” but I mean when I was in.
Anyway, we have “diverted” this discussion, but it wasn’t much of one anyway in it’s original form. The bottom line is had the dumb assed psychopaths not posed for pictures they wouldn’t be in the mess they are in.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
11:53 pm
Recon:
When I went through boot it was the M-14 but in ITR we shot the M-1 and the BAR.
However, the scariest thing I EVER shot was those three one second bursts with the flame thrower. Scared me half to death.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
11:56 pm
recon: If you squeezed and stayed on the trigger of the M-14 fully auto, could you stay on target?
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
11:56 pm
Fred:
Yep ………… I have many disappointments from Nam but one sure thing is the lack of proper supply at times. I once went four days without one bite of C-rats. Poncho liners were like gold. Jungle utility trousers were always in short supply. You wore the ones you had until the rotted off. When guys would rotate home they would change clothes with you and leave the field with the junk ……… including boots. Sad but true.
The Navy was great for one thing …………. those brave Corpsmen.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
11:57 pm
Fire in the hole !
I’m out of here …………… listening post.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
11:57 pm
Worst “rifle” I ever fired was the AK-47 the FIRST time I squeezed the trigger if fired off one round and before I could get off the trigger I was pointing straight up almost. The damn thing kicked worse than a mule.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
11:58 pm
1811. on a flame thrower never lean back. Scared me too.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
July 1st, 2011
12:05 am
“Recon: If you squeezed and stayed on the trigger of the M-14 fully auto, could you stay on target?”
Fred no, best like a M-60 fire to six. 4 to 5 round bursts are the best. That’s what I never liked about the full rock and roll M-16, too much opportunity for jams.
oldguy
July 1st, 2011
12:09 am
BACK,
M79 Granade Launcher — I liked it and I could put a granade over the lip of a hole and into the hole from 75 yards!! not real practical in the jungle however.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
July 1st, 2011
12:12 am
oldguy, the Cong and NVA were scared $hitless of the M-79.
oldguy
July 1st, 2011
12:15 am
1811
If you are still here:
The NRA says the CBS report is slanted…Apparently several of the 700s they say were defective have modified sears to lighten the trigger pull for targer use and since they have been traded around for so long the info gets lost. It takes a real gunsmith the find the mods. Some have only 20% of the original contact surface left.
Hootinanny Yum Yum
July 1st, 2011
12:17 am
When Holder pursues the ATF sanctioned straw purchases which ultimately led to the death of a US Border Patrol officer with the same vigor as he’s pursuing the CIA, I’ll give him a thumbs up. Until then, I consider him to be absolutely worthless and nothing more than the President’s gopher.
What’s even more criminal in my mind, is the way this administration “played up” the way the US was the primary weapons supplier to drug cartels and was causing the death of innocents in Mexico.
What a crock! All you libs piss and moan about Bush and Cheney. But turn a blind eye to the lies, distortions and manipulations of Obama and his Czars.
You make me want to puke. Like a sleazy lawyer, you can tell when anyone in this administration is lying. Their mouths are moving.
oldguy
July 1st, 2011
12:17 am
Recon,
I got lucky in Nam and spent my entire tour in Siagon!! Lots of pretty girls!!!!
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
July 1st, 2011
12:24 am
oldguy,
Nothing wrong with that. I didn’t have it quite so good but none the less not so bad. I’d been in since 61 when the S.H.T.F. in 65 so 65- 67 I was a ranking NCO who assigned people. Unfortunately, we started to run out of people, so I had my fun in the sun but not so bad.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
July 1st, 2011
12:29 am
oldguy:
I’m back real quick.
I hear you. Our armorer (a gunny) worked our sears over pretty good for as light a trigger pull as possible. You could almost “think” it off. Had to have it that way.
That was probably the reason ………….. not the design per se.
oldguy
July 1st, 2011
12:38 am
Recon,
Just a grunt E-3 805 MP Company attached to the 607 MP Company, Ton Su Nuit (sorry about the spelling) Rd Siagon. I was a Reservist activated to fill for the MP casualities due to TET 1965. 179 days in-country (so the wouldn’t have to give me Veterans benifits!). Was just happy to get back!!
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
July 1st, 2011
12:41 am
I wasn’t a scout sniper but back here in the world I have a Remington 700 with a Tasco 3×9 scope and it’s an accurate rifle at 150 yds. where I’ve sighted in.
oldguy
July 1st, 2011
12:42 am
Boy, its getting late: 1968!!!! (and I am getting old! all the years seem to run togather!!)
oldguy
July 1st, 2011
12:43 am
Taps time (retreat to me)
Night all!!
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
July 1st, 2011
12:46 am
oldguy, 1811 0311, Taps, rest well.
Gandalf the Wise
July 1st, 2011
1:58 am
What Honest Abe would say:
“If by torturing all the muslims terrorists,I could save the union, I would do it, I by torturing none of the muslim terrorists, I could save the union, I would do it, if by torturing some of the muslim terrorists and not torturing others I could save the union, I would do that too. “
The Thin Guy
July 1st, 2011
2:12 am
Don’t believe in water boarding. Too slow. My Enhanced Interrogation Technique is the old Blow Torch to the Balls. Just my nature. When I kill a cockroach with insecticide I just use a small squirt so that it will take hours to die in intense agony while waving it legs in the air. Wish they still sold Roach Motels. Those were very educational and entertaining.
captguitarman
July 1st, 2011
2:21 am
Just a bone to the Libs who aren’t too happy with the Prez for lots of reasons. We may see more of this. The campaign is not off to the best start, despite constant campaigning since the last election. Obama does not lead, he campaigns. His class warfare diatribe re: how corporate jet owners are evil was both comical and whacko at the same time. This election campaign won’t be like the last one. He has a record now and the laughability of empty and meaningless slogans like “yes we can” will become more than apparent to all, with many Indies asking themselves, how did I fall for that BS? –Even more laughable will be any attempt to revitalize the “change you can believe in” nonsense and the openess and transparency platform, which died quickly with the secret meetings and back room deals and business as usual that gave Obamacare life. Nope. This time it is going to be much different. And throwing CIA agents to the dogs, who have unpleasant but necessary tasks that save the lives of our allies and soldiers fighting on the ground will certainly be no problem for this Prez or his ethically challenged attorney general political puppet.
zeke
July 1st, 2011
2:52 am
10 damn 4, CHUCK!
zeke
July 1st, 2011
2:53 am
And would you dumb founded leftist remember this on all important fact?
NON U.S. CITIZENS HAVE NOT EVEN ONE, ONE, ONE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT!!!!
Dave R.
July 1st, 2011
4:23 am
Off topic, but food for thought for all you libs who think that government is capable of running the most benign services:
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/2011_0701inspectors_okd_pool_overlooked_dead_body/srvc=home&position=0
Joel Edge
July 1st, 2011
6:35 am
” the Justice Department would not prosecute any intelligence officer “who acted in good faith and within the scope of the legal guidance given by the Office of Legal Counsel regarding the interrogation of detainees.””
Let’s get closer to November 2012 and see how that holds up, Jay. Gonna need a distraction next year.
Obama panders to liberals
July 1st, 2011
7:09 am
Maybe a trial here, or an investigation there, Obama and Holder are just trying to appease liberals who were shocked at the torture and abuses that were so pervasive during the Bush years. Yes, it’s cynical and political of Obama but hey it’s election season.
If Obama were serious about defending human rights and the rule of law, he would have taken action long ago.
Dan
July 1st, 2011
7:17 am
I don’t recall Jay’s reaction to Osamas’s assasination, (one of the few good albeit easy, decisions O has made) but one cannot agree with Jays comments on “torture” of prisoners involved in 9/11 and celebrate the assasination of Bin Laden. Well you can I suppose, it simply proves your perspective is about politics and partisanship rather than logic or reason
stands for decibels
July 1st, 2011
7:20 am
if U.S. officials tortured individuals to the point of death, well, that is not the country to which I pledge allegiance
and that’s what matters about this. And I skimmed approximately three thousand f–ktarded comments that don’t seem to fathom as much.
heading upstairs.
rightwingextreme
July 1st, 2011
7:50 am
let’s see….this is the same attorney general’s office that authorized fast and furious which has resulted in the deaths of Americans, who refuses to investigate theblack panthers…..yeah. good stuff bookman.
oh, i guess bin laden’s family will now have recourse against bammy and the SEALs seeing how they shot him!
the logic of this administration is beyond understanding.
Jay
July 1st, 2011
8:10 am
This ludicrous claim among conservatives that liberals have to be outraged by the death of bin Laden is absurd and testifies to the cartoon world in which many of them live.
Bin Laden’s dead, he deserved to die and if I had been on that team I would have been quite happy to have put the bullet through his head.
seabeau
July 1st, 2011
8:27 am
Jay! You’re gonna lose your liberal card!! Killing an unarmed man in front of his wife and children is morally wrong!!
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
July 1st, 2011
8:40 am
Jay:
Liberals out there are STEAMING that Obama still has troops in Afghanistan and you don’t think many are upset that Osama died the way he did?
You and I agree on the manner of Osama’s death (one of the few things we ever agreed on) but to say many liberals out there are not upset is pretty naive.
P.S. I’ll put the real world I lived/worked in up against your editorial/cartoon world anytime you want.
MrLiberty
July 1st, 2011
11:34 am
So none of the military types have the courage to answer my question.
What a revealing statement that makes.
And “md”, as for our country being dependent on foreign oil for energy, you need to read up on the history of oil, the conspiracy to make hemp illegal, the involvement of the US government in the energy markets (hint, just another place they destroyed our freedoms) and the like before you blindly take our dependence on foreign oil as a natural “given” and a blanket justification for our murderous policies in the middle east. History began WAY before you started paying attention to world events and our government’s evil role in it did as well.
Dan
July 1st, 2011
12:22 pm
Jay I didn’t say liberals had to be outraged at Osama’s death, indeed acknowledgement that it is a good thing is a positive for anyone. However eagerness to pull the trigger in that situation, yet not wanting to live in a country that tortured another criminal in order to get Osama, is contradictory, and far more representative of living in a “cartoon world”. While I would disagree with an individual who broadly condemmed both acts, I would at least respect their consistency to one set of values, straddling the fence on the two is either intellectually dishonest, or simply devoid of intellect.