Criminal investigation into torture deaths begins
“Attorney General Eric Holder said Thursday he has ordered a full criminal investigation into the deaths of two prisoners who were interrogated by the Central Intelligence Agency in the years following the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorism attacks.
The move is likely to restart the partisan fight over Bush-era detainee treatment that Democrats have called torture.
Mr. Holder said he accepted the recommendations of John Durham, a prosecutor from Connecticut, who has been examining the treatment of CIA detainees and studying whether CIA interrogations exceeded methods allowed under legal guidance provided at the time by the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel.
Justice Department prosecutors led by Mr. Durham have been using a grand jury in Alexandria, Va., to investigate the death of Gul Rahman at a CIA prison called the Salt Pit in Afghanistan in 2002, as well as the death of Manadel al Jamadi at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq in 2003, according to a person familiar with the matter.
Holder had previously made it clear that the Justice Department would not prosecute any intelligence officer “who acted in good faith and within the scope of the legal guidance given by the Office of Legal Counsel regarding the interrogation of detainees.” In other words, if they abided by the standards and legal guidance set by their superiors — however flawed, immoral and illegal those standards and legal guidance might be — they would not be prosecuted.
I think that’s appropriate and necessary. If we’re not going to prosecute the people at the top who created the torture policy — and clearly we’re not — then we sure as hell shouldn’t prosecute the lowly employees who carried that policy out.
However, if U.S. officials tortured individuals to the point of death, well, that is not the country to which I pledge allegiance, and was not within the bounds of any standards that have so far been made public. We are Americans and Americans aren’t supposed to do that kind of thing. The people we fight may do those things; that’s one reason we fight them.
But we don’t. Or at least we’re not supposed to.
– Jay Bookman
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421 comments Add your comment
josef
June 30th, 2011
9:42 pm
Unmentionble dit: “Vous pouvez l’avoir. Délivrez-moi de ma torture, je vous en prie!”.
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
9:42 pm
I’m out — everyone have a fine weekend and DRIVE SAFELY.
TruthBe
June 30th, 2011
9:42 pm
getalife, Please get a life. You know the democrats are sorry good for nothing low lifes that want the total destruction of America as we know it. Just like your empty suit obama.
ANYBODY but obama 2012
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
9:44 pm
Joe Mama,
Read “Unfit for Command” you might learn something. “Winter Soldiers” do not deserve my respect. I think you should back off unless you served there.
Whaheema
June 30th, 2011
9:44 pm
Now don’t get all upset Obama didn’t make this decision. In fact he has hardly made any decisions since he decided to fund raise full time.
Bruno
June 30th, 2011
9:46 pm
May not be able to hand you that drink…
The highlight of the run for me is to get sprinkled with some Holy Water by the Catholic Priest somewhere around the 3 mile mark. Takes it all to the next level.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
9:46 pm
A “dick” :
“( Brit ) clever dick: a person who is obnoxiously opinionated or self-satisfied; know-all”
“a stupid person, usually a male (rude and derogatory.) : “What stupid dick put this thing here in the way?”
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dick
Just sayin’
oldguy
June 30th, 2011
9:47 pm
Hey Fren,
You live in Outer Mongolia? There is a Korean war memorial on the national mall!!!
p.s. we did spend 1 Day in SF when I got back from VN, a buddy and I went down to the park at the end of Haight St found a stoned hippy (Like you) and beat the sh$$ out of him!! Great fun!!
MrLiberty
June 30th, 2011
9:47 pm
All of the top officials in both the Bush and Obama adminstrations need to stand trial for war crimes. Holder’s move is just to pacify the worthless democrats who were correctly against Bush’s war but now roll over while Obama serves out Bush’s 3rd term. The path for america is clear if we ever wish to regain our morality as a nation.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
9:48 pm
Fred, you never served in the military and those of us who did see through you like a plate glass window. Now get the hell off my posts and curl up with whatever booze bottle keeps your weak ego alive. I’m done with you.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
9:48 pm
Josef: LOL. I’ll get back to Unmentionable. Is there a dowry?
josef
June 30th, 2011
9:48 pm
old guy
Not to worry…I was going to walk down the street and pass Bruno a drink during the Road Race…believe me, there’ll be plenty of the red…if a little is good, then a lot is real good, right?
John Galt
June 30th, 2011
9:50 pm
It takes people willing to do some pretty unspeakable things to keep our nation safe, and it always has, whether you liberals like it or not.
oldguy
June 30th, 2011
9:51 pm
10-4 Josef!!
Over and out
Liberals are scum
June 30th, 2011
9:53 pm
I want to see some real news like an investigation into the fake birth certificate released by teh WH on April 27th…
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
9:54 pm
What a tradition, July 4th and the Peachtree.
Meanwhile
Time marches on and on
And the strength to run may soon be gone
Now I watch the young ones coming
And it’s on their legs I’m running
Into the arms of my god
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXv67Ar2NL0
Fred
June 30th, 2011
9:54 pm
Oldguy, I never was a stoned hippie and you could never beat me in your wildest wet dream. I was a PROFESSIONAL soldier, not a draftee such as you and “recon.”
We trained with REAL “recon” in jump school, well light-weight jump school, that static line stuff at 1500 feet. I don’t recall seeing any of them put their knees to the breeze at 30,000 feet though. We did THAT with SEALS.
and when I got back from the war, I didn’t find some stoned 102 lb hippie to beat up so I could feel like a man. I hunted down Chuck Norris and whipped HIS ass. THEN we had a beer and he called me sir.
josef
June 30th, 2011
9:55 pm
FRED
Dowry? Yeah, but it’s under Napoleanic Code!
.
GOOD FIGHT
Ready? 1-2-3 MORTON!
And here comes TruthBe…guess he’s filling in for Redneck on the minstrel show circuit tonight
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
9:55 pm
Headlines:
“Ending corp jet tax break would save less than 1/10th of 1% of Obama’s target…” (Can you say class warfare?)
“Sen. Rubio Blasts Obama: ‘Left-Wing Strong Man’ ”
“TOO MUCH GOLF?”
“President flubs daughter’s age — twice…”
josef
June 30th, 2011
9:56 pm
FRED
Oooohhh! You’re sooo butch!
Bruno
June 30th, 2011
9:57 pm
Where’s JamVet tonight?? I heard there is a “name the Am” contest going on. I’ve been saving up this tune for him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH4DRdfW8ww
Fred
June 30th, 2011
9:58 pm
Recon: You will never be done with me. You are a blowhard REMF who spent all your time as a draftee in Saigon washing dishes or REAL Marines underwear. You can’t “see through me” because had you served when I did you would have been so far in the rear you would have not even SEEN me. LOL I love varnish brained blowhards.
Todays equivalent to you is the current sacred cow: The Single Mom.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
9:58 pm
AmVet:
In case you missed this earlier. The truth is finally out.
HEADLINE: “Harvard: July 4th Parades Are Right-Wing”
“Democratic political candidates can skip this weekend’s July 4th parades. A new Harvard University study finds that July 4th parades energize only Republicans, turn kids into Republicans, and help to boost the GOP turnout of adults on Election Day.
“Fourth of July celebrations in the United States shape the nation’s political landscape by forming beliefs and increasing participation, primarily in favor of the Republican Party,” said the report from Harvard.
“The political right has been more successful in appropriating American patriotism and its symbols during the 20th century. Survey evidence also confirms that Republicans consider themselves more patriotic than Democrats. According to this interpretation, there is a political congruence between the patriotism promoted on Fourth of July and the values associated with the Republican party. Fourth of July celebrations in Republican dominated counties may thus be more politically biased events that socialize children into Republicans,” write Harvard Kennedy School Assistant Professor David Yanagizawa-Drott and Bocconi University Assistant Professor Andreas Madestam.”
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
10:01 pm
Fred/Recon:
We can solve this very easily and ease up on our brother veterans:
Scout : 0311, India Company, 3rd Batallion., 4th Marines, Vietnam – DMZ area, 1967-68
Fred: __________________________________________________________________
Recon: _________________________________________________________________
Bruno
June 30th, 2011
10:02 pm
We trained with REAL “recon” in jump school
I was a stoned hippie. We trained with REAL Kauna bud.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
10:03 pm
Well freds drunk out of his rabbit assed mind and hallucinating again. Other thing to do so Taps and good night y’all. Happy Independence Day weekend and stay safe.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
10:04 pm
Josef; You are what every washing machine needs. An Agitator lol.
I remember the Napoleonic Code thing. (You explained it to me a few months ago).
I’m not a good agitator. I don’t want “recon” to stroke out or have a heart attack so I’ll leave him alone pretty soon. Besides, he’s such an easy one to agitate, it’s like shooting fish in a barrel. I find it amusing that he thought he would change his name and no one would know who he was.
It would be different if, like Scout, he actually had something USEFUL to say or even a sense of humor (or a sense of honor). I can respect Scout. I don’t even think about “recon” (or whatever he changes his name to) unless I feel like agitating him.
I’m so bad.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
10:08 pm
!811, 0311 Mike Company 3rd. Bn. 6th. Marines, 2533 2nd. Recon , 2533 and team leader Bravo Co. 3rd Recon Bn. Vietnam. In 61-67
Bruno
June 30th, 2011
10:08 pm
Jam @ 9:54–Howdy, brother! Enjoyed the TR number, great guitar work. I think of this song often when I’m running:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXYl5NrHPb4
DwayneL
June 30th, 2011
10:11 pm
If torturing these scumbags gives us valuable info then it’s worth it!
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
10:12 pm
“I’m so bad” the only thin about you that’s bad is probably your breath. Quick now within 60 seconds answer Scouts question. dates of service, where, when. units and MOS.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
10:14 pm
Scout: In all seriousness, I can’t tell you. Sorry.
Let’s just say I done some stuff I ain’t real proud of but it had to be done. I can understand WHY those guys being tried did what they did and when I say they need to “face the piper” I know exactly what that means and what the ramifications are. Sometimes when you get an “illegal order” you don’t disobey it. It’s a conscious decision. You KNOW that the chair warming SOB who gave it will never be held accountable but it has to be done so you do it.
What gets me though is that SOB in the link Jay posted earlier was SMILING and posing for pictures. For that alone he should fry. Hell, had I been there I would have shot him myself. No rational human being ENJOYS crap like that. You were a sniper. Do you gloat over your kills? no it was something that had to be done, you were good at it, and you did it. AND you survived. I dunno about you chief, but I still have dreams I would rather not have and memories I would choose to abandon.
It is what it is.
on another note: About that Harvard article? Does that mean that Harvard has let the military back into their school and is allowing ROTC there again? Those whiny leftist bastiches (along with Yale) tossed them out. I hadn’t heard or read that they reversed course.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
10:15 pm
Scout, times up, fred’s a fraud.
Bruno
June 30th, 2011
10:16 pm
Another great “running” song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BsTF22SPyM
DawgDad
June 30th, 2011
10:16 pm
“However, if U.S. officials tortured individuals to the point of death, well, that is not the country to which I pledge allegiance, and was not within the bounds of any standards that have so far been made public. We are Americans and Americans aren’t supposed to do that kind of thing. The people we fight may do those things; that’s one reason we fight them.”
I totally agree with you Jay, maybe the only time I’ll ever be able to say this. However, Holder is grandstanding and his pronouncement is pure political theater. The only responsible course of action would be to investigate and if necessary prosecute or discipline VERY quietly.
Send in the drones, the bombers, the missiles, and the assassins while we all sit home and watch on the nightly news. We all pledged allegiance to that, right? Waging war has become a manner of convenience and as such is a waged as a matter of convenience. There is precious little honor left in the leadership of this country, yet boundless honor in the soldiers who get sent to the front. I’m 100% for respecting and protecting the lives of our soldiers, but 100% opposed to the West and the rulers in the Middle East ever-increasingly hiding behind American skirts.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
10:20 pm
Here ya go Bruno:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJYRtOPUonA
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
10:21 pm
Recon: Ooo Rah!
Fred: I bet you were in S.O.G. then (Special Operations Group). I know you guys had your service classified.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
10:22 pm
Nice post Dawgdad
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
10:23 pm
We’ll try this again,
Oh scout BOO HOO, I can’t tell you. What a POS.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
10:25 pm
I bet these broads wouldn’t try this in Kabul !
Headline: “No Road, No Sex, Women Tell Town; Men Respond with Hunger Strike”
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/lifestyle/2011/06/30/no-road-no-sex-women-tell-town-men-respond-with-hunger-strike/?test=latestnews
josef
June 30th, 2011
10:26 pm
DawgDad
@ 10:16
We may have crossed wires here in the past, but well said and much my own thoughts on the matter. A tip of the hat, sir…
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
10:26 pm
1811, Ooo Rah! a fungus among us.
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
10:30 pm
1811 @9:58 pm.
It’s all good.
Awesome groove to boogie to in that DB number, huh B?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuLZrZLdQpM
Fred
June 30th, 2011
10:31 pm
Scout: I’m younger than you. When I was serving, what you are describing was called USSOCOM. It still may be. I tend to avoid “reunions” and keeping track of what is going on.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
10:34 pm
recon: I’m done playing with you. You can stand down.
Scout@ 10:25: Holy crap, the men are doing a “hunger strike?” LOl Yeah right. Honey isn’t cooking for them anymore. Besides we know what they are “hungry” for.
Nice article. Gave me a chuckle.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
10:36 pm
Shame on you Amvet for that truncated version of one of the most beautiful songs ever recorded. No soup for you.
Bruno
June 30th, 2011
10:41 pm
Solid @ 10:20, Fred.
Shame on you Amvet for that truncated version of one of the most beautiful songs ever recorded.
Still gotta give Am an A for taste for “Beginnings”, even if it is the “radio” version.
Bruno
June 30th, 2011
10:42 pm
Later guys
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
10:42 pm
Okay pu-se I’ll stand down because you’re not worth it anyway..
buck@gon
June 30th, 2011
10:44 pm
This effort goes hand in hand with obamas reelection kickoff and its only theme: ‘keep in mind how evil conservatives are. Like a lonely boy fighting pretend foes, little barry conjures up real straw men to keep the public focused on the bad, instead of little barry’s nonexistent good.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
10:47 pm
LOL recon I just chastised you for pu se (or whatever it was) but when I typed the real word it got auto snagged. I stand corrected. THAT word does NOT get past the auto snagger.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
10:47 pm
Recon:
I’m still not sure about Fred. He says he is younger so we’re not talking Nam anyway.
I was trying to see if he would bite on S.O.G. (Special Operations Group).
Most fakes do !
However, as you remember it was NEVER “Special Operations Group” ………… that’s sounds more macho but it was always “Studies and Observations Group”.
A lot of fakes will give themselves away on that one. It’s worked for me before.
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
10:47 pm
I know guys, gimme a break. I’m multi-tasking with Thursday night ADD.
And I too bid you all a fond adieu…
MrLiberty
June 30th, 2011
10:48 pm
Why don’t you all put it back in your pants, stop the measuring contest and answer this – How is it that during times of war, when the government sends our troops everywhere BUT america to supposedly defend our freedoms, the american people LOSE more freedoms than during peacetime? There is always the claim that soldiers “protect our freedoms”, “defend our freedoms”, “give us our freedoms” (that one is the best since our creator gives us our freedoms), and similar such messages. And yet, when the war ends, we are ALWAYS worse off on the freedom scale.
The N. Koreans were in no position to take away our freedoms. The N. Vietnamese nor the Viet Cong were in no position to take away our freedoms. The same with the Somalis, the Panamanians, the Serbians, the Afghanis, the Iraqis, the Yemenis, the Pakistanis…you get the picture. Only the US government has EVER been in a position to take away our freedoms, and while our military has been following the unconstitutional orders of our presidents, the US government has been doing exactly that.
Look at the assults on free speech in the 60’s and 70’s, the virtual destruction of the constitution and bill of rights under Bush and Obama, the creation of the totalitarian TSA, the roving wiretaps, the torture, the claimed right of the president to assassinate even american citizens without trial, due process, or constitutional protections. And these are just the tip of the iceberg.
Not only have we not won a war since 1945, but clearly we have lost every war for liberty that was fought on the home front during those times.
If soldiers are supposed to be protecting our freedoms, defending our freedoms, etc. then they have been doing a seriously lousy job. No doubt they even have come back from the wars and voted for most of the same folks that were taking freedoms away from americans while they were overseas. So their defense was not even effective at the ballot booth.
Maybe we finally need to consider that the US military is fighting the wrong enemies of freedom. Clearly the only enemies that can ACTUALLY take away our freedoms are right here in america and they are being willingly elected.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
10:51 pm
Fred, You don’t get past the honest test. Go get nice with your bottle of make believe. I’m through wasting time with a C.A like you.
BADA BING
June 30th, 2011
10:54 pm
You people make me sick, where do you think your good life comes from? Our soldiers have an impossible job to do. People die every day so you can have your morning coffee. Kids work in sweat shops to make your running shoes. That gold watch you are wearing comes from the sweat and broken backs of miners in some far off land making a few bucks a day. You don’t want to know what is done in your name, so that you can live better that 99% of the Earth’s population. Just go to bed tonite and say Thank You to whoever your God is, and be thankful that you are on the right side of the bullets.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
10:55 pm
1811, when a guy can’t say his dates of service, MOS and units they served with that’s enough for me to do an about face on a fraud.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
10:56 pm
Recon:
I’m afraid you are correct.
Missions are classified but not the rest.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
10:58 pm
BADA BING, good thoughts for all of us to consider.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
10:59 pm
BADA:
One of my first memories in life is of my Dad sitting in a metal wash tub on the back porch of our little house in a holler in W.Va. I remember thinking why is he so black. Obviously, I had no concept of a coal mine.
The people of this nation have become spoiled, weak, arrogant and lazy.
This does not bode well for our future.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
10:59 pm
Scout: I’m not a scholar but I thought during the Nam days it was SOC (Special Operations Command).
But anyways, I don’t need your belief or lack thereof. The truth is the truth. It is what it is. I don’t need reaffirmation. I am what I am and I take responsibility for everything that I’ve done. I made a conscious choice. I was told the ramification and unless things have changed, those two guys being tried were told as well. I don’t know but I would BET that they are being tried because they were sadistic SOB’s and enjoyed it so much they posed for pictures such as the one Jay linked to. Burn them.
Are the pictures of YOU Scout with your foot in the chest of a body you sniped (assassinated if you were part of that group) from 1000 meters away with your rifle cradled like a deer hunter and a smile on your face? I didn’t think so.
Did YOU witness things that perhaps were a bit illegal? Did you take pictures of them? Are you PROUD of them? As an honorable man and a Christian, I can’t believe you were either proud nor happy. Nor do they sit well even now. But you did what you had to do. It was nothing to be happy about or proud (other than the technical expertise of the shot). But either way, nothing to laugh and brag about. Nor do you HERE laugh and brag about what you did. Taking human life deliberately is serious business to well adjusted people. You learn to live with it, but you don’t LIKE it.
Damn. I am talking too much. Oh I know:
Kill them all and let God sort them out. Hoo Rah.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
11:00 pm
“STRAUSS-KAHN SEX CASE: Accuser’s Credibility Under Fire”
Can anyone say Duke Lacrosse Team ?
Fred
June 30th, 2011
11:03 pm
Bada Bing @ 10:54. Well spoken. Best post you have EVER made and trust me, I LOVE your satirical ones. That one eclipses them all.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
11:07 pm
Fred:
I am not trying to mess with you ………… it’s just that everything here is pretty much anonymous anyway. No “need” to be so secretive.
No one knows who you are.
If you were C.I.A. ……….. saying it here doesn’t matter.
And yes ………… my USMC training and weapon of assignment in Nam was a Remington model 700, .308/7.62mm (match ammunition when we could get it), bull barrell, Redfield 3X9 power scope (with range finder) and of course my trusty .45 as backup. My spotter carried his M-16 and the spotting scope.
Just sayin’
BADA BING
June 30th, 2011
11:07 pm
Just a little emotional on this holiday weekend. My life is going so well, and then I read all the articles on the economic mess and all the suffering. I wish everyone could enjoy life as I am.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
11:07 pm
!811, If we stay on the blog much longer fred will be so far in his cups that we’ll be praying that he has someone in his home to call 911. We just can’t help him and he appears to be Klondike, so I’m out.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
11:13 pm
You got me recon, i’m a poser. I ain’t done nothing but drink beer and bad mouth my Country since 1963. i’m not a certified REMF like you.
Although if your creds are correct you are neither a REMF nor a draftee but a true bonafied Marine. I would have never guessed as you seemed to have lost the “honor’ part.
Paulo977
June 30th, 2011
11:14 pm
MrLiberty
“Only the US government has EVER been in a position to take away our freedoms, and while our military has been following the unconstitutional orders of our presidents, the US government has been doing exactly that.”
Isn’t it the truth!!!!!!
oldguy
June 30th, 2011
11:18 pm
Hey 1811,
you know the newswhores are now bitching about the model 700 having a defective trigger assembly!! After 50 years in service and several million in production. What idiots! They are trying to sue Remington!!
P.s. I trained on the M14 At Ft Jackson, SC A-10-2 Tank Hill!! I liked it much better than the M16 (but I was a trained hunter thanks to my dad who bought me my first firearm at age 8 (Savage 410 single barrel shotgun). I knew how to shoot when I went into the service!!
A lot of the draftees from big cities didn’t know which end the bullet came out!!
Fred
June 30th, 2011
11:20 pm
Whatever Scout if you believe that. NOTHING is anonymous on the web. If I had the skill set (I don’t) I could go through this site and get your name and address. I know people (hackers) who can but while I’ve wanted to learn, I haven’t. I’ve watched it done, but I never learned it.
Why didn’t they give you match rounds all the time? When I was in we shot nothing but. Even for practice.
Also, when I was in, the Marines called their “snipers” “designated marksmen.” Did they dio that when you were in as well or did they call you snipers?
md
June 30th, 2011
11:21 pm
“Only the US government has EVER been in a position to take away our freedoms”
With an economy dependent on foreign oil, that freedom can easily be replaced with servitude……or very poor free peasants……….
Josef
June 30th, 2011
11:22 pm
Bada….
Aw, be happy…the spite value alone is worth the effort! Seriously, though, there’s enough misery without creating it
oldguy
June 30th, 2011
11:24 pm
Obviously Fred, if he is who he claims to be, didn’t have the pleasure of coming back into the country through SFO like most Nam Vets did; and getting spit on and called “baby Killers” as a welcome home greating.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
11:25 pm
Oldguy? Did you ever get a chance to fire a Garand? Or YOU Scout? I’ve heard that those were very damn accurate.
I was always partial to the M16 myself as a portable all around weapon. I generally used it single shot but I liked the option of fully auto if I needed it. For sniping I liked the Barret.
Always wanted to fire the M14.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
11:29 pm
No old guy, I didn’t. That was a travesty. Not as much as being a slave but a travesty nonetheless. But it served it’s purpose as well.
NOW even though we are embroiled in two unpopular wars that crap ain’t happening. Soldiers aren’t blamed for being soldiers. Be proud that you were the reason for that instead of whining that it happened. Don’t blame me, instead punch the next yuppie YOUR age you see in the face lol.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
11:32 pm
oldguy,
The Stoner M-16 was a piece of s$it when McNammra and the DOD forced it on the military, Marines fighting in the hill wars and Operation Union and Union II in the Ge Son Valley took 50% casualties attributed to the malfunction of the M-16. It was then the military insisted on chrome plated chambers and then chrome plated upper receivers.
BADA BING
June 30th, 2011
11:33 pm
Happy Trails, see you on the music blog.
oldguy
June 30th, 2011
11:33 pm
Fred,
The Garand was way too heavy, and Kicked like a mule. As an MP we were originally issued M1 Carbines – lots of fun but no range. The M 14 was a great compromise!
For the M16 – shot like a 22 Long Rifle as far as kick but I thought the 223 was way too loght for the jungle undergrowth; we needed a heavier bullet to punch through the greenery; plus ot jammed to easily!
oldguy
June 30th, 2011
11:37 pm
Hey Fred,
the next ex-hippy I see is, unfortunately, my son-in-law’s father!!
I got over it long ago, we are good friends and still talk about SF in the 60’s (he loved the place but his “earth mother” wife turned into a real bitch. He has been divorced for 30 years!!
oldguy
June 30th, 2011
11:41 pm
Fred,
You can buy an M1 through the Civilian Marksmanship Program for about 250$ (i think). They are brought back from Korea but the anti-gun crowd is trying to stop the program.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
11:44 pm
Fred:
Back then we were “Scout-Snipers” and we worked out of a Sniper Platoon in the Headquarters Company of each regiment. I was a grunt in India 3/4 for about five months then got transferred to the 3rd Marine Regimental Sniper Platoon. They would pair us out to the grunt companies as needed.
Like most supplies at that time (believe it or not) match ammo was hard to come by. I would carry about 30 rounds of it and then throw a 100 round machine gun belt (same caliber) in my backpack in case it really hit the fan.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
11:45 pm
oldguy, I shot the later versions. (the A2 and then the A3) so the jamming problem was fixed. Agree with the heavier bullet though. Never really understood the A-3. Single shot or 3 round burst. I want either single shot or I need all of them full auto.
I’d love to play with some of the stuff they have out now. I used some of the prototypes but I’m sure the new stuff is much better. Hell the night vision stuff Scout used was WAY primitive by my time so I’m sure what they have now makes the stuff I used look like crap.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
11:45 pm
Fred/old guy:
Check this out ……………… ;o)
http://www.military.com/video/specialties-and-personnel/snipers/can-you-spot-the-sniper/803843237001/?ESRC=marine.nl
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
11:51 pm
I was among the last training platoons on Parris Island to go through boot camp with and qualify with the M-1. Shortly after reporting into my first permanent duty infantry company I was assigned as a BAR man in the fire team. A consequence of being promoted to PFC out of boot camp and being 150Ilb dripping wet. Shortly thereafter we traded in our weapons for the M-14 and my assigned weapon was the M-14 modified for full automatic fire It was a beauty except for one thing you had to continually check that the gas cylinder plug was secure in the weapon. Later in Recon I was assigned a 45 cal. grease gun and later the M-16. I preferred all the previous weapons to the M-16. I was in 61-67.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
11:51 pm
old guy:
I hate to tell you this but I think there is real validity to the 700 issue.
Check this out : http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/17/eveningnews/main301947.shtml
Back in late 1967 I had an AC with my 700 when the mighy mite I was riding in lurch. I swear I didn’t touch a thing. Cost me 1,000 sandbags.
I worried about that for years until I read the above article two years ago.
Just sayin’
Fred
June 30th, 2011
11:51 pm
oldguy: I’ve looked on line for some decent M1’s (the Garand not the carbine) and they are going for about a grand. I’m not THAT interested lol.
Scout: I have a tendency to forget. The navy has ALWAYS treated the Marines like crap and the Marines get the cast off equipment and supplies. It’s a bit different now for specialized units. Even for recon. Crap, I say “now” but I mean when I was in.
Anyway, we have “diverted” this discussion, but it wasn’t much of one anyway in it’s original form. The bottom line is had the dumb assed psychopaths not posed for pictures they wouldn’t be in the mess they are in.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
11:53 pm
Recon:
When I went through boot it was the M-14 but in ITR we shot the M-1 and the BAR.
However, the scariest thing I EVER shot was those three one second bursts with the flame thrower. Scared me half to death.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
11:56 pm
recon: If you squeezed and stayed on the trigger of the M-14 fully auto, could you stay on target?
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
11:56 pm
Fred:
Yep ………… I have many disappointments from Nam but one sure thing is the lack of proper supply at times. I once went four days without one bite of C-rats. Poncho liners were like gold. Jungle utility trousers were always in short supply. You wore the ones you had until the rotted off. When guys would rotate home they would change clothes with you and leave the field with the junk ……… including boots. Sad but true.
The Navy was great for one thing …………. those brave Corpsmen.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
11:57 pm
Fire in the hole !
I’m out of here …………… listening post.
Fred
June 30th, 2011
11:57 pm
Worst “rifle” I ever fired was the AK-47 the FIRST time I squeezed the trigger if fired off one round and before I could get off the trigger I was pointing straight up almost. The damn thing kicked worse than a mule.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 30th, 2011
11:58 pm
1811. on a flame thrower never lean back. Scared me too.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
July 1st, 2011
12:05 am
“Recon: If you squeezed and stayed on the trigger of the M-14 fully auto, could you stay on target?”
Fred no, best like a M-60 fire to six. 4 to 5 round bursts are the best. That’s what I never liked about the full rock and roll M-16, too much opportunity for jams.
oldguy
July 1st, 2011
12:09 am
BACK,
M79 Granade Launcher — I liked it and I could put a granade over the lip of a hole and into the hole from 75 yards!! not real practical in the jungle however.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
July 1st, 2011
12:12 am
oldguy, the Cong and NVA were scared $hitless of the M-79.
oldguy
July 1st, 2011
12:15 am
1811
If you are still here:
The NRA says the CBS report is slanted…Apparently several of the 700s they say were defective have modified sears to lighten the trigger pull for targer use and since they have been traded around for so long the info gets lost. It takes a real gunsmith the find the mods. Some have only 20% of the original contact surface left.
Hootinanny Yum Yum
July 1st, 2011
12:17 am
When Holder pursues the ATF sanctioned straw purchases which ultimately led to the death of a US Border Patrol officer with the same vigor as he’s pursuing the CIA, I’ll give him a thumbs up. Until then, I consider him to be absolutely worthless and nothing more than the President’s gopher.
What’s even more criminal in my mind, is the way this administration “played up” the way the US was the primary weapons supplier to drug cartels and was causing the death of innocents in Mexico.
What a crock! All you libs piss and moan about Bush and Cheney. But turn a blind eye to the lies, distortions and manipulations of Obama and his Czars.
You make me want to puke. Like a sleazy lawyer, you can tell when anyone in this administration is lying. Their mouths are moving.
oldguy
July 1st, 2011
12:17 am
Recon,
I got lucky in Nam and spent my entire tour in Siagon!! Lots of pretty girls!!!!
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
July 1st, 2011
12:24 am
oldguy,
Nothing wrong with that. I didn’t have it quite so good but none the less not so bad. I’d been in since 61 when the S.H.T.F. in 65 so 65- 67 I was a ranking NCO who assigned people. Unfortunately, we started to run out of people, so I had my fun in the sun but not so bad.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
July 1st, 2011
12:29 am
oldguy:
I’m back real quick.
I hear you. Our armorer (a gunny) worked our sears over pretty good for as light a trigger pull as possible. You could almost “think” it off. Had to have it that way.
That was probably the reason ………….. not the design per se.