Criminal investigation into torture deaths begins
“Attorney General Eric Holder said Thursday he has ordered a full criminal investigation into the deaths of two prisoners who were interrogated by the Central Intelligence Agency in the years following the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorism attacks.
The move is likely to restart the partisan fight over Bush-era detainee treatment that Democrats have called torture.
Mr. Holder said he accepted the recommendations of John Durham, a prosecutor from Connecticut, who has been examining the treatment of CIA detainees and studying whether CIA interrogations exceeded methods allowed under legal guidance provided at the time by the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel.
Justice Department prosecutors led by Mr. Durham have been using a grand jury in Alexandria, Va., to investigate the death of Gul Rahman at a CIA prison called the Salt Pit in Afghanistan in 2002, as well as the death of Manadel al Jamadi at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq in 2003, according to a person familiar with the matter.
Holder had previously made it clear that the Justice Department would not prosecute any intelligence officer “who acted in good faith and within the scope of the legal guidance given by the Office of Legal Counsel regarding the interrogation of detainees.” In other words, if they abided by the standards and legal guidance set by their superiors — however flawed, immoral and illegal those standards and legal guidance might be — they would not be prosecuted.
I think that’s appropriate and necessary. If we’re not going to prosecute the people at the top who created the torture policy — and clearly we’re not — then we sure as hell shouldn’t prosecute the lowly employees who carried that policy out.
However, if U.S. officials tortured individuals to the point of death, well, that is not the country to which I pledge allegiance, and was not within the bounds of any standards that have so far been made public. We are Americans and Americans aren’t supposed to do that kind of thing. The people we fight may do those things; that’s one reason we fight them.
But we don’t. Or at least we’re not supposed to.
– Jay Bookman
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421 comments Add your comment
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
5:53 pm
chuck — “Joe Mama, My point was two-fold. First, there is no evidence to this point that they died as a direct result of “torture” whatever that is defined as. In fact, there is no evidence that they were tortured. We therefore should presume that they are INNOCENT, because they are not PROVEN guilty.”
Well, we *do* presume innocence in our court system. That’s why they’d have to be *proven* guilty. But we do put people on trial if there’s suspicion and evidence. You seem to be arguing that no trials should take place.
“Second, we know for a fact that interrogations since the first prisoners were captured, have saved lives. We may never know how many thousands of lives have been saved as a result of interrogations, but many, many plots have been foiled and many terrorists have been killed as a result of this information, INCLUDING Bin Laden.”
That’s irrelevant to my point. I’m not an attorney, but it seems to me that someone wishing to offer that as an affirmative defense would have to prove that the detainee or detainees they are charged with killing or assaulting (whatever the charge might be) merited the treatment he deserved *specifically because* he had valuable and actionable intelligence that saved lives, and that the only way to extract it was to do what the defendants did. We don’t automatically acquit people because they killed or assaulted a dude who just generally bad news. There has to be a specific and verifiable justification — such as self-defense — for something like that.
“I really couldn’t care less if terrorists have been killed either in prison or on the battlefield or by predators.”
I do. I wasn’t MI, so I wasn’t trained in EPW (that’s what the military called them when I was in — Enemy Prisoners of War) handling, but we were taught to take their gear, leave them only their clothing and canteen, segregate them so they couldn’t cook up a story, protect them from harm and give them medical attention if they needed it, and then hustle them, their gear and any documents they might have to the rear as soon as practical so the intel guys could grill them. We were *specifically* taught to play hands-off unless they attacked us, tried to escape or tried to assault other EPWs.
“The more the merrier. We ought to be executing them after military trials anyway. It’s crazy that we have kept so many of them at Gitmo and other places without giving them hearings and carrying out justice.”
I don’t want someone like you calling the shots on this, because I’m a disabled veteran and I don’t want some dirtbag intelligence officer in some hellhole terrorist country to feel justified in using these ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’ on one of our guys. I don’t want there to be a war crimes trial in 20 or 50 years or whenever where the guy jumps up and says ‘you *ssholes did the same thing at Abu Ghraib and you said you were justified!’
I don’t begrudge you your opinion, but I think that following the course of action you’re advocating places our troops at greater risk of having the same sort of crap done to them.
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
5:54 pm
Dave — “Ripping my fingernails out is torture. Playing ABBA 24/7 is an enhanced interrogation technique.”
THIS
ty webb
June 30th, 2011
5:54 pm
ah yes, retreaded poutrage of “torture’ during the bush years…All you Francis’s need to lighten up…your guy got an unarmed Bin laden, twice in the head.
El Jefe
June 30th, 2011
5:55 pm
Holder is an example of the wrong man in the wrong job.
getalife
June 30th, 2011
5:55 pm
A lawyer in the w administration said it was legal but never challenged it in court.
It does not pass the smell test when we executed Japanese for water boarding.
It is illegal and a war crime.
Again, other countries want to prosecute.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
5:56 pm
US Sup has also said that punishments that involve tortue are forbidden under 8th amend. US is also a party to international treaties that prohibit torture.
Left wing management
June 30th, 2011
5:56 pm
Ok, Dusty, I gotcha. I personally favor many wars. But the Iraq War, even if it was for good ends, the people who hatched it were doing it for all the wrong reasons and therefore in my view it had to be opposed in the most ferocious way. How’s that sound?
Doggone/GA
June 30th, 2011
5:56 pm
Here’s a thought: why not use the same techniques on the CIA agents that they used on the detainees and see if we get the truth about what they did?
josef
June 30th, 2011
5:58 pm
JAY
You may be right, but then why are they bringing it up to begin with if it’s not political? Why the option of the Nurnberg defense if it’s not political? As bad as these cases are at the “hands on” level, these shmoes are being played as pawns to make it look like they’re doing something. Well, they are, all right..but what they’re doing is, in my opinion, as un American as the torture and the deaths. I thought we established that at Nurnberg and at the Hague. If we’re not going for the Big Boys here, our bring him to account rhetoric on Qadaffi, the trials in Phnom Penh, and haling of Mladic before the tribunal ring hollow..
Left wing management
June 30th, 2011
5:59 pm
Jay: Prosecuting heroic CIA agents for what they did to “terrorists,” even if they didn’t actually happen to be terrorists, is very UNpopular. And the number of those who, like yourself, will vote against Obama because he also didn’t prosecute Cheney, Bush, et al is minuscule compared to the number who may vote against him because he dared to “defend terrorists.”
Just adding to what Jay said, it’s also a crucial problem for Obama – as a DEMOCRAT – to be seen as doing anything even slightly in the direction of being easy or forgiving towards lawbreakers or foreign threats.
Remember that only a Nixon could go to China, thawing relations with a hated Communist foe. A Jimmy Carter or any other Democrat would never have been allowed to make that move.
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
5:59 pm
Doggone — “Here’s a thought: why not use the same techniques on the CIA agents that they used on the detainees and see if we get the truth about what they did?”
NO and NOT funny.
We *executed* Japanese intel personnel after WWII for waterboarding. I don’t think waterboarding is *ever* justified.
Jay
June 30th, 2011
6:01 pm
“Autopsy photos show lacerations and multiple bruises on Jamadi’s feet, thighs and arms. His most significant injuries — five broken ribs — are not visible in the photos. There were no bruises in that area, leading military medical examiners to say that the fractures were probably caused by a slow, deliberate application of force, such as someone kneeling on his chest.”
Right Chuck. Just like Osama.
Sheesh.
Real Scooter
June 30th, 2011
6:01 pm
These are politically motivated show trials in the offing and nothing more
AMEN! josef
chuck
June 30th, 2011
6:01 pm
Quite the opposite Joe mama, Jay is calling for prosecutions even though no investigation has occurred and no evidence of a criminal act exists at this time.
josef
June 30th, 2011
6:02 pm
PAUL
YAY! You’re back…now can I have some time off? EOI’s been tough… had a good time I hope…
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
6:03 pm
chuck — “Quite the opposite Joe mama, Jay is calling for prosecutions even though no investigation has occurred and no evidence of a criminal act exists at this time.”
Really? Because his title says “investigation,” not “prosecution.”
pogo
June 30th, 2011
6:04 pm
Most Americans have become so de-sensitized to death and killing that they couldn’t care less if their next door neighbor gets killed by some thug breaking into their house, much less the death of some suspected terrorists. Rest assured, somewhere in the world right now there are some suspected terrorists, people that have suspected intent to do this country harm, that are being harshly treated, and rightly so. If Holder is so upset by this incident then why didn’t he publically oppose the Obama ordered sanction of Osama Bin Laden? Bin Laden “sufferred” the ultimate interrogation technique (he was killed in about 30 seconds) and no court ever heard a word he had to say in his own defense. If Obama and Holder believe so much in the legal system why didn’t they simply bring Osama to America before a court? The reason was that politcally it was much more glamourous to just kill him outright.
For that matter, why aren’t Obama and Holder raising hell about our drones shooting missiles throughout the middle-east which we know will result in “collateral” casualties? Why aren’t Jay and the rest of you liberals passing out in outrage at Obama’s decision to use these uncaring/unknowing machines to carry out attacks which will cause innocent peoples deaths? What is the real difference between the two cases?
getalife
June 30th, 2011
6:05 pm
Looks like our President had enough of the gop.
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
6:06 pm
Yeah, Paul might not think so, but I found the ABBA reference pretty funny.
ty, LOL.
Still, it is a dishonorable chapter in our history and needs not be swept under the rug completely.
F. Sinkwich
June 30th, 2011
6:07 pm
“Autopsy photos show lacerations and multiple bruises on Jamadi’s feet, thighs and arms. His most significant injuries — five broken ribs — are not visible in the photos.”
Osama sure hired some clumsy dudes. He needed a better HR department.
Jimmy62
June 30th, 2011
6:09 pm
I thought it was revealed that information gotten from torture led to the finding and killing of Bin Laden. Doesn’t that mean the sitting President at the time, Obama, is as responsible as if he had personally tortured the prisoner? That was the attitude with Bush.
Paul
June 30th, 2011
6:09 pm
Jay
Don’t mean this to sound like parsing, or looking for a way out for the top people, but from the standpoint of the people at the bottom of the food chain the techniques had to be presented as legal, as they are required to carry out lawful orders and refuse unlawful orders (I’m making the assumption here that CIA officers are held to the same standards as military in this situation). And the whole reason for going thru the Office of Legal Counsel, as I understand it, was to get a legal opinion stating that the practices did not constitute torture. The opinion was rendered, the practices were deemed to not meet the tests laid out in the statute and the interrogations proceeded.
The statute (as is expected) does not describe specific practices, it describes characteristics of practices that, taken as a whole (meeting the tests of all the “severe” and “prolonged” included in the statute). Personally, I can see how the top five can be excluded. I think OLC was incorrect in their assessment of waterboarding.
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
6:09 pm
pogo — “If Holder is so upset by this incident then why didn’t he publically oppose the Obama ordered sanction of Osama Bin Laden? Bin Laden “sufferred” the ultimate interrogation technique (he was killed in about 30 seconds) and no court ever heard a word he had to say in his own defense. If Obama and Holder believe so much in the legal system why didn’t they simply bring Osama to America before a court? The reason was that politcally it was much more glamourous to just kill him outright.”
This is just ludicrous. I have no doubt that the SEAL team *would* have brought OBL in alive if they could have, but when the guy resists, what are you supposed to do? Lecture him and wag your finger in remonstrance? The notion that OBL was ‘interrogated’ in any way is just laughable. There’s a significant and distinct difference between someone who resisted apprehension and was shot dead and someone who was captured, incarcerated and then died somehow in our custody.
Paul
June 30th, 2011
6:10 pm
Evening, josef nix!
Glad you led down the fort. Please, take time off from EOI duties but don’t go anywhere, ‘k?
Dusty
June 30th, 2011
6:11 pm
Left Wing Management,
So you were against the Iraq War but others were OK. How does that sound?
It sounds like you totally absorbed the brainwashing that Dems practiced from the day Bush was declared president quite legally.. Never has such an adverse effort done so much harm to a country as those intimidations. The chasm still stays open because it did so much damage. You can see it here every day in many ways.
I hope your “ferocious war efforts” did not harm out troops. I can’t think it encouraged them. I suppose you have an excuse for that too. You did not like Bush. What an excuse!! I guess you liked Saddam.
saywhat?
June 30th, 2011
6:12 pm
When Ty Webb, Recon, Pogo, Chuck or their friends or family members are tortured, er, I mean “enhancedly interrogated” to death by Americans or some foreign government, I will be sure to respect their wishes and fight any attempt at an investigation, or attempts to hold somebody responsible. I wouldn’t want the deaths of such fine people sullied by something so politically motivated.
Paul
June 30th, 2011
6:12 pm
Dave
“Playing ABBA 24/7 is an enhanced interrogation technique.”
Nuh-uh. The music played while they were in their cells was Rap and Eminem stuff.
Abba’s played as a reward for cooperating.
saywhat?
June 30th, 2011
6:13 pm
Dave — “Ripping my fingernails out is torture. Playing ABBA 24/7 is an enhanced interrogation technique.”
I think you have that backwards.
getalife
June 30th, 2011
6:13 pm
Dusty,
Do you support engaging in Libya?
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
6:13 pm
To Doggone/GA’s point.
If these things are not torture, why haven’t we been utilizing them on our criminals?
Surely, we could save (fill in your favorite number here) lives.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
6:14 pm
So when Newt has Dancing Queen as his ringtone…is that EIT or Torture?
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
6:15 pm
Paul — “they are required to carry out lawful orders and refuse unlawful orders”
This is true, but it doesn’t mean that refusing to follow unlawful orders is easy or that anyone in your chain of command will back you up (I’m speaking from a military POV). There’s also the distinct possibility that your commanders would refer you for administrative punishment, and if your complaint is found to be baseless, then you’ve just hosed yourself and your military career.
I suspect that a similar dynamic is in operation with respect to CIA officers and the like.
Tommy Maddox
June 30th, 2011
6:16 pm
Eric Holder – America’s version of Paul Howard.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
6:17 pm
Now, don’t get me wrong …………… I ain’t hot on “real” torture either …….. gives me the creeps.
For example, one night in Nam my buddy and I had to guard two V.C. prisoners all night back at base camp. They were just squatting down in a little barbed wire enclosure. It was kind of chilly and drizzly so (although I would have killed them that day without blinking in a fair fight) I went and got them a canteen of water each, two C-ration meals and two ponchos to wrap up in. My buddy thought I was nuts.
But that said, what will someone in the future say the offense is for shooting an unarmed Osama bin Laden in the presence of his wife and small children? If Obama wasn’t president, you libs. would all be screaming about that !
chuck
June 30th, 2011
6:18 pm
Shouldn’t there be outrage about predator attacks which kill suspects indiscriminately without getting ANY information from them? Now personally, I have no problem with them, but you all that have a problem with this must be catatonic with rage that it’s YOUR GUY that is ordering them rather than some right winger, so you can’t say anything about it.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
6:19 pm
If anyone is interested in a comprehensive investigative report complete with supporting documents (remembering that the government has destroyed a great deal of evidence including recordings of the actual “interrogations), you may want to check out:
http://www.thetorturereport.org
Paul
June 30th, 2011
6:19 pm
Joe Mama
The ABC article I linked to state only 14 CIA officers were trained and authorized to carry out the procedures. Other officers refused to take part. I have read nothing to indicate they were in any way sanctioned for not taking part in a voluntary program that violated their consciences.
Based on the description Jay posted earlier, it seems these cases occurred outside the CIA’s interrogation program and were the result of brutal treatment by individuals charged with safeguarding their prisoners.
Tommy Maddox
June 30th, 2011
6:21 pm
Did any of our guys emasculate their prisoners then hang them off a bridge overpass while they were on fire [as in Mosul]?
I didn’t think so.
getalife
June 30th, 2011
6:21 pm
Scout,
You are against double tapping obl because Obama got him.
It is too obvious.
Go ahead and admit it.
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
6:21 pm
“If Obama wasn’t president, you libs. would all be screaming about that !”
Screaming for joy.
Just like I did when GWB smoked the Taliban. They didn’t get OBL, but I still loved it…
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
6:21 pm
Potpourri:
1)
First we had “Tricky Dick” Nixon.
Now we have ” _________ Dick” Obama.
Add your own rhyme ………… they can be pretty funny !
2)
President “Dick” Obama.
3)
“Liberals celebrate : 4/15
Conservatives celebrate : 7/4
4)
“The bigger the government the smaller the God.
“The bigger the God the smaller the government.”
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
6:22 pm
If Obama wasn’t president, you libs. would all be screaming about that !
Absolute bull Scout…but lets be clear. Do YOU think that shooting OBL during an attempt to capture in front of his wife and children (we’ll presume that is true) was unlawful?
Dusty
June 30th, 2011
6:22 pm
getalife,
I did not know we were engaged in Libya. Maybe misseled but not married. Wasn’t Obama going to tell us if the knot was tied? Maybe I missed the great edict. He seemed to be deciding on his own. Now that is really scary. Did he forget about Congress?
josef
June 30th, 2011
6:22 pm
PAUL
Not to worry…I’m not going anywhere!
Doggone/GA
June 30th, 2011
6:23 pm
“NO and NOT funny”
It wasn’t meant to be funny. If what they did was not torture, then why should be not be able to use it to get information we KNOW they have?
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
6:24 pm
WELL, I’M HAPPY THE TRUTH FINALLY CAME OUT !
HEADLINE: “Harvard: July 4th Parades Are Right-Wing”
“Democratic political candidates can skip this weekend’s July 4th parades. A new Harvard University study finds that July 4th parades energize only Republicans, turn kids into Republicans, and help to boost the GOP turnout of adults on Election Day.
“Fourth of July celebrations in the United States shape the nation’s political landscape by forming beliefs and increasing participation, primarily in favor of the Republican Party,” said the report from Harvard.
“The political right has been more successful in appropriating American patriotism and its symbols during the 20th century. Survey evidence also confirms that Republicans consider themselves more patriotic than Democrats. According to this interpretation, there is a political congruence between the patriotism promoted on Fourth of July and the values associated with the Republican party. Fourth of July celebrations in Republican dominated counties may thus be more politically biased events that socialize children into Republicans,” write Harvard Kennedy School Assistant Professor David Yanagizawa-Drott and Bocconi University Assistant Professor Andreas Madestam.”
Read more: http://nation.foxnews.com/culture/2011/06/30/harvard-july-4th-parades-are-right-wing#ixzz1QnhYJe68
chuck
June 30th, 2011
6:25 pm
AHA!!! joe mama, the person who died in JAY’s case ALSO resisted and sustained serious injuries as a result of the ensuing fight. CASE CLOSED. YOU just set the standard. The only problem with that is that OBL was unarmed and just moving toward a weapon. I am personally glad that they put a bullet in his head, but it would have been much more useful to INTERROGATE him using VERY enhanced techniques. I don’t think we would have gotten as much from him as we did from his computers, but it would have been more satisfying.
Left wing management
June 30th, 2011
6:26 pm
Dusty “It sounds like you totally absorbed the brainwashing that Dems practiced from the day Bush was declared president quite legally.. Never has such an adverse effort done so much harm to a country as those intimidations. The chasm still stays open because it did so much damage. You can see it here every day in many ways.”
If you say it did damage, then I say “good”. That means what we did worked – at least in part. We couldn’t stop the bastards from causing that disaster, but at least we left a scar.
The chasm if real, Dusty, and will remain will as long as the wealthy and connected continue to use the system to engage in class warfare against the rest.
ty webb
June 30th, 2011
6:26 pm
“Do YOU think that shooting OBL during an attempt to capture in front of his wife and children (we’ll presume that is true) was unlawful?”
well if you ask Pakistan or anyone whoever spit out that whole “sovereign nation” crap…one could argue that the whole operation was indeed unlawful.
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
6:27 pm
1811 — “what will someone in the future say the offense is for shooting an unarmed Osama bin Laden in the presence of his wife and small children? If Obama wasn’t president, you libs. would all be screaming about that !”
I wouldn’t.
Paul — “The ABC article I linked to state only 14 CIA officers were trained and authorized to carry out the procedures. Other officers refused to take part. I have read nothing to indicate they were in any way sanctioned for not taking part in a voluntary program that violated their consciences.”
I doubt the CIA says much publicly about their HR policies. It’s entirely possible that nothing happened to the officers who refused, but it’s also possible that they harmed their careers in some way.
“Based on the description Jay posted earlier, it seems these cases occurred outside the CIA’s interrogation program and were the result of brutal treatment by individuals charged with safeguarding their prisoners.”
If so, then that would be a significant point in the case, as it would tend to dilute the argument that the accused were ‘just following orders.’ It would incriminate the interrogators and exonerate Bush administration officials, would it not?
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
6:28 pm
Ty…you’re diverting to another subject. Was the actual shooting unlawful? Why or why not?
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
6:29 pm
Good Fight:
Nope.
1) He was an enemy combatant (same as one of our snipers shooting a Taliban at 1,000 meters taking a dump …………… it’s been done.)
2) Every photo or video of him showed an AK-47 within reach (his choice).
3) The bad guy doesn’t get to shoot first.
4) He could have had an explosive vest or grenade (also his “wife” or any of the kids. That’s just what they do),
Now, all of that said I think you miss my point.
a) Had it been under Bush’s watch …….. most libs. would be saying “ASSASSINATION” !!!
b) What’s to keep a new administration/attorney general from coming in and opening an investigation?
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
6:30 pm
ty webb @ 6:26 and Good Fight:
…………. and we haven’t heard from the illustrious “World Court” yet have we ?????
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
6:33 pm
“Dum, dum dum, dum ………….. the names have been changed to protect the innocent.”
“Anthony Weiner’s wife is taking time off from her senior job with the State Department — as well as time off from the randy former representative, The Post has learned.
While Weiner, 46, heads to an “intensive” rehab program to recover from the sexting scandal that cost him his congressional career, his 35-year-old spouse, Huma Abedin, will be relaxing at an undisclosed location.
“She is definitely taking time off away from her husband and chilling,” a source said. “And he’s going some place for at least a couple of weeks.”
Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/premature_evacuation_SvQwcvAcIT2eSF5eg4htIN#ixzz1QnkI1Nlm
poison pen
June 30th, 2011
6:33 pm
Jay, won’t pledge allegiance to death by torture and nobody should, but he will pledge allegiance for illegal people coming over our borders. Just sayin…
ty webb
June 30th, 2011
6:34 pm
Keep up,
Don’t know and don’t really care…we(the good guys) did what we had to do to them(the bad guys). You’ll see no crocodile tears from me regarding the shooting of an unarmed bin laden or regarding our enhanced interrogations, but then again I’m just being consistent with my poutrage…or lack thereof.
Curious Observer
June 30th, 2011
6:34 pm
Murder is a form of criminal homicide; other forms of homicide might not constitute criminal acts. These homicides are regarded as justified or excusable.
Equivocate, equivocate, equivocate, chuck. People just like you and Dusty and the reason my wife never knew her grandparents, who died in the gas chambers of Auschwitz for the sin of being Jews.
If people like Graner are innocent, let them stand trial. They don’t get a free pass merely because they happened to be in our army or in one of our agencies. The Nazi leaders learned that “merely following orders” was no excuse for murder. And if these CIA agents committed unprovoked murder, I want them punished severely. You and your kind make me sick. You’re the opposite of being American. You’re willing to excuse any horrific act, provided it conforms to your ideology.
BTW, whatever happened to Dusty’s scolding about “disrespecting the presidency” in the criticism of a president?
Paul
June 30th, 2011
6:36 pm
Joe Mama 6:27
I’d be shocked it it came out this was the result of a sanctioned interrogation session that followed established procedures. As I said, so far it looks like the people involved were not ‘just following orders.” It’s along the lines of those dashcams showing police administering a beating on a citizen.
As far as exonerating Bush administration officials, I wouldn’t go that far because, as I said, it appears the accused were taking actions prohibited by Bush administration officials.
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
6:36 pm
chuck — “AHA!!! joe mama, the person who died in JAY’s case ALSO resisted and sustained serious injuries as a result of the ensuing fight. CASE CLOSED.”
Stop trying so hard, Chuck. I’m not accusing anyone; I’m simply saying that I think investigations are a good idea, whether they uncover any serious offenses or clear everyone involved. You seem to think this is partisan with me; it’s not.
One other thing — I tend to become very harsh and argumentative with anyone who says ‘case closed’ to me or anything resembling it. I’m trying very hard to be patient and polite with you, so let’s not take things down that road, okay?
“YOU just set the standard. The only problem with that is that OBL was unarmed and just moving toward a weapon.”
OBL wasn’t in a prison; the other guy was. CASE OPEN. Kindly don’t put words in my mouth or thoughts in my head, chuck.
“I am personally glad that they put a bullet in his head”
So am I. I have said many times in many places that I wanted him caught dead or alive.
“but it would have been much more useful to INTERROGATE him using VERY enhanced techniques.”
While I would also have appreciated the opportunity for us to interrogate him, I think our recommended methods would have differed significantly.
“I don’t think we would have gotten as much from him as we did from his computers, but it would have been more satisfying.”
I agree that there was a pile of intel in the area where we took him, and I’m sure the data analysis guys were working nights to translate and crack it. Any terrorist butthole whose name or cell phone number was anywhere in that data needs to be worried.
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
6:37 pm
“…we(the good guys) did what we had to do to them(the bad guys).”
We did not have to stoop to torture.
We did have to endure an administration that promoted it.
Not one before his had.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
6:38 pm
Scout, I understood your point. Its absurd and absolutely a fiction. And just like Recon, unless you have actual evidence to indicate that there was anything done wrong, the implying that any of those Seals did something unlawful is disgusting.
If there is an investigation, then I would expect to facts to be shown. In fact, other than your low attacks on these Seals, the evidence available so fact suggests nothing was done wrong. This is just another of your Area 51 birther tricks to which you admit. Shame on you. Shame. Your post is a disgraceful reflection in my opinion to the military and law enforcement personnel of this country.
getalife
June 30th, 2011
6:38 pm
Dusty,
So the answer is no.
You did not support our President on Libya.
Where is your patriotism?
md
June 30th, 2011
6:39 pm
Mr Holder best be careful as to what precedent he sets, as the unintended consequences may very well bite him and this administration in the booty. Drone strikes and hits put out on foreign nationals may very well come into play……..especially in this current hyper-partisan environment.
Dusty
June 30th, 2011
6:39 pm
JOSEF,
You are not going anywhere? I thought you would be in Liberal rehab by now. Blinking lights, pictures of Bush, unsweetened sassafras tea, socialism spelled backward to be written 100 times, Hope & Change broadcast by the hour, collard tacos for lunch.
You would come out a new man, never known to disagree with Bookman or, heaven forbid, Obama.
Better watch it. I think someone is knocking on your door!!
josef
June 30th, 2011
6:40 pm
PAUL
“Don’t mean this to sound like parsing, or looking for a way out for the top people, but from the standpoint of the people at the bottom of the food chain the techniques had to be presented as legal, as they are required to carry out lawful orders and refuse unlawful orders (I’m making the assumption here that CIA officers are held to the same standards as military in this situation).”
You may not mean for it to sound like that, but that’s exactly what’s going on here. It will be presented in just that fashion and lacking a signed, sealed and delivered order from “above” the big boys get their get out jail free card, pass go and collect $200.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
6:40 pm
That’s right ………… make the mess and then split !
Headlines:
“Geithner Oversaw Largest Debt Increase Of Any Treasury Sec. In History… ”
“GEITHNER WANTS OUT”
md
June 30th, 2011
6:42 pm
And since we are on torture, why is waterboarding considered torture yet tazing unruly US citizens is not?? Makes no sense to me……….
Mighty Righty
June 30th, 2011
6:42 pm
We should start at the very top.
http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/vernon/110630
getalife
June 30th, 2011
6:43 pm
He reviewed 99 cases and found two he could not stomach.
A war crimes indictment could take down two Presidents.
w for ordering it and Obama for helping to cover it up .
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
6:44 pm
Good Fight:
You are about as good at twisting someone’s direct statements as anyone I have ever seen ……… I’ll give you that.
One more time ………… knucklehead !
1) What the SEALs did was RIGHT ON ! THEY DID NOTHING WRONG !
2) There is nothing in place to keep any future administration, the World Court or even libeal public opinon from saying what they did should be investigated as a possible war crime.
Now if you don’t understand that ………….. we’re done for today.
Doggone/GA
June 30th, 2011
6:44 pm
“And since we are on torture, why is waterboarding considered torture yet tazing unruly US citizens is not??”
It is considered torture if you use it when iterrogating a suspect. As for unruly citizens, would you rather they were shot?
chuck
June 30th, 2011
6:45 pm
Hmmmm. if he’s innocent, let him stand trial…interesting concept. I’m really glad I make you sick. In the meantime, Bite Me.
Real Scooter
June 30th, 2011
6:45 pm
We did have to endure an administration that promoted it.
Not one before his had.
I don’t think you really know that AmVet. Just sayin….
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
June 30th, 2011
6:46 pm
getalife:
Time wil tell but for once your “objectivity” is a breath of fresh air.
getalife
June 30th, 2011
6:46 pm
Scout,
His job is done.
He saved the banks and Wall Street.
Mission Accomplished for real.
getalife
June 30th, 2011
6:47 pm
Just call em like I see em Scout.
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
6:47 pm
Jonix, the boys in Washington are NEVER gonna take the heat.
Why do think the Pentagon is located there?
But I think Jay is right. All this does is infuriate the pro-war gang. And there are still lots of chickenhawks in this country, just itching for another invasion. VERY risky politically and arguably one of a tiny few thing courageous to have come out of this administration. (Years later, misguided and nothing more than show, of course, but still…)
Shades of William Calley…
poison pen
June 30th, 2011
6:47 pm
josef
JAY
” You may be right, but then why are they bringing it up to begin with if it’s not political? Why the option of the Nurnberg defense if it’s not political? As bad as these cases are at the “hands on” level, these shmoes are being played as pawns to make it look like they’re doing something. Well, they are, all right..but what they’re doing is, in my opinion, as un American as the torture and the deaths. I thought we established that at Nurnberg and at the Hague. If we’re not going for the Big Boys here, our bring him to account rhetoric on Qadaffi, the trials in Phnom Penh, and haling of Mladic before the tribunal ring hollow..”
Josef, They have got to do something to make you keep your eyes off all the rest of the problems that are going on in our country.
Obama should be real proud of himself, especially when he never even belonged to the Boy Scouts.
saywhat?
June 30th, 2011
6:47 pm
Scout- “The bigger the government the smaller the God.
The bigger the God the smaller the government.”
Is this why the Taliban was so small?
Just admit it. You want to live in a Christian Theocracy. Short of converting to Catholicism and moving to the Vatican, good luck with that, because it will never happen in America.
Joe Mama
June 30th, 2011
6:47 pm
Dusty — “collard tacos for lunch”
GAG
josef
June 30th, 2011
6:48 pm
DUSTY
Good one…!
Uncle Jed
June 30th, 2011
6:49 pm
Another glitch in Obamacare as the fog rolls in.
The Democrat Speaker of the House:
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said, “But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of controversy.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Older Workers Could Face Cost Disparities in Health Law Glitch
Published June 30, 2011
Associated Press
WASHINGTON — Older adults of the same age and income with similar medical histories would pay sharply different amounts for private health insurance due to what appears to be an unintended consequence of the new health care law.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/30/older-workers-could-face-cost-disparities-in-health-law-glitch/#ixzz1QnmyGM5H
md
June 30th, 2011
6:50 pm
One can certainly see the case being made for war crimes against the “murder” of OBL…..after all, the guy did not receive his day in court. More of those “special” (meaning what the hell are the rules) rules under ‘enemy combatants”…………….the catch all term for not being at “war” and therefore not havig defined rules for the participants. This way, we/they get to make up all the rules as we go……..
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
6:51 pm
Good point, Scooter.
Let me rephrase.
To my knowledge, no administration prior to 2000 – 2008, had ever been implicated with torture scandals or had been known to endorse it.
Left wing management
June 30th, 2011
6:51 pm
md: “And since we are on torture, why is waterboarding considered torture yet tazing unruly US citizens is not?”
A tazing is administered presumably to physically subdue an unruly person while waterboarding aims to break down a person mentally, presumably along with additional threats of violence or harm.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 30th, 2011
6:52 pm
Scout, again you continue your shameful reiteration….you continue to state that had a Republican been president that the very same acts of these Seals would be called by “libs” as possible war crimes. So you imply that there is something wrong and that the only reason LIBS do not act is because Obama is a DEM. That is shameful and just low. Sorry you dont like to be called out on a post but just be a man and quit shaming these men who performed their duyt well by making your inferences.
Now if you want to continue to back away and now claim that there was nothing wrong with the acts of the Seal, then you need to acknowledge that “libs” are not holding back from making charges merely because Obama is a DEM.
I know you have stated you right to use any dirty trick to attack Obama….and I have the right to continue to say SHAME and to point out the disgrace in your posts.
poison pen
June 30th, 2011
6:53 pm
getalife
Dusty,
So the answer is no.
” You did not support our President on Libya.
Where is your patriotism?”
Getalife, Did you support Vietnam?
If so, then you don’t have a problem with us losing 58,000.00 soldiers over there, do you.
josef
June 30th, 2011
6:53 pm
ZamVet
“Shades of William Calley”
Unmentionable’s first reaction to this. But, no, I don’t call it courageous. I call it cowardly.
md
June 30th, 2011
6:53 pm
“It is considered torture if you use it when iterrogating a suspect. As for unruly citizens, would you rather they were shot?”
I guess I should have been clearer……as there are many instances were folks have been tazed merely for the convenience to the officer………seems like torture to me…..one has the power over the other……
Uncle Jed
June 30th, 2011
6:54 pm
Debt Increased More Under Geithner Than Under Any Treasury Secretary in U.S. History
(I don’t recall Timmy Turbotax working in the Bush administration, hmmm)
(CNSNews.com) – Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner oversaw the largest increase in the national debt of any Treasury secretary in American history, presiding over a $3.7 trillion increase in the debt.
According to data from the Treasury Department’s Bureau of the Public Debt, the national debt has increased $3,723,575,990,130.10 from Jan. 26, 2009 until June 30, 2011, Geithner’s entire tenure to date as Treasury secretary.
When Geithner took office the total national debt stood at $10.6 trillion. As of June 30, 2011, it had risen to $14.3 trillion.
In fact, the debt accrued under Geithner is greater than all federal debt accrued in the first 204 years of the nation’s history. The national debt did not reach $3.7 trillion until October 1991, according to historical Treasury data that reaches back to 1791.
Geithner, who reportedly may step down from his position soon, has overseen the accrual of more federal debt (in only 2.5 years) than every Treasury secretary combined from Alexander Hamilton to Nicholas Brady…
Run away Timmy, run to your new Wall Street job where you can pick up your stimulus bonus.
Doggone/GA
June 30th, 2011
6:55 pm
“you continue to state that had a Republican been president that the very same acts of these Seals would be called by “libs” as possible war crimes”
And never mind that – practically to a person – the “libs” here have said over and over and over that Bush should have set his sights on going into Afghanistan, getting Bin Laden and getting out.
Real Scooter
June 30th, 2011
6:56 pm
AmVet
June 30th, 2011
6:51 pm
Now that sounds much more like the “real AmVet”.
getalife
June 30th, 2011
6:56 pm
They got scared and overreacted.
cheney was out his mind running from bunker to bunker.
Yoo said it was legal so they ordered it.
w is guilty of war crimes.
He already admitted it.
Doggone/GA
June 30th, 2011
6:56 pm
“as there are many instances were folks have been tazed merely for the convenience to the officer………seems like torture to me”
And officers have been tried an convicted for doing exactly that.
md
June 30th, 2011
6:57 pm
“A tazing is administered presumably to physically subdue an unruly person while waterboarding aims to break down a person mentally, presumably along with additional threats of violence or harm.”
Hmmm…….and there are no instances were folks may be threatened with repeated tazing if cooperation is not granted??
In reality, both are uncomfortable methods of behavior modification with neither resulting in death. I suspect that ideology has more to do with the difference……….
Dusty
June 30th, 2011
6:58 pm
Curious Observer, 6:34
I resent the statement you made that I am in some way responsible for your grandparents death in the gas chamber. Members of my family fought in the war to overcome those who killed Jews and many others in genocide. Your broad indictments of those of us who love and protect this country because it is a haven for all people who love freedom is a scurrilous attack without merit.
I know that our military and the people of America do not desire torture or wars but we have to make decisions that are tough. Perhaps you should keep in mind whether you want to protect this country or whether you want to insult people with whom you disagree or whether you just hate all Republicans.. You ARE insulting.
I will continue to state my opinion of our president. I have judged him mediocre. That is not “disrespect”. That is the simple truth as I see it. Blind obedience never was my “thing”.
Doggone/GA
June 30th, 2011
6:59 pm
“In reality, both are uncomfortable methods of behavior modification with neither resulting in death”
the people who have DIED being tazed might want to take exception to that statement.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/09/05/taser-related-deaths-accelerating/
md
June 30th, 2011
7:02 pm
“the people who have DIED being tazed might want to take exception to that statement.”
Seems you are trying to make my point…….one method is acceptable to those that despise the other………
Soothsayer
June 30th, 2011
7:03 pm
‘War on terror’ set to surpass cost of Second World War
The total cost to America of its wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, plus the related military operations in Pakistan, is set to exceed $4 trillion – more than three times the sum so far authorised by Congress in the decade since the 9/11 attacks.
At $4 trillion and counting, their combined cost is approaching that of the Second World War, put at some $4.1 trillion in today’s prices by the Congressional Budget Office.
“A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you’re talking about some real money.”
Uncle Jed
June 30th, 2011
7:03 pm
Is this what happens when the Casey Anthony defense rests? Where is OJ when he is so badly needed by the armchair prosecutors and wannabe attorneys suffering withdrawal symptoms?
I doubt any of the posters on this topic were there or have anything to go on but hearsay, which is everything until introduced as evidence. It is astonishing that a large segment of the posters here, and the host, have chosen to declare (or at least imply) that our guys are guilty and portray the terrorists as victims. Astonishing!