Criminal investigation into torture deaths begins

From the WSJ:

“Attorney General Eric Holder said Thursday he has ordered a full criminal investigation into the deaths of two prisoners who were interrogated by the Central Intelligence Agency in the years following the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorism attacks.

The move is likely to restart the partisan fight over Bush-era detainee treatment that Democrats have called torture.

Mr. Holder said he accepted the recommendations of John Durham, a prosecutor from Connecticut, who has been examining the treatment of CIA detainees and studying whether CIA interrogations exceeded methods allowed under legal guidance provided at the time by the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel.

Justice Department prosecutors led by Mr. Durham have been using a grand jury in Alexandria, Va., to investigate the death of Gul Rahman at a CIA prison called the Salt Pit in Afghanistan in 2002, as well as the death of Manadel al Jamadi at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq in 2003, according to a person familiar with the matter.

Holder had previously made it clear that the Justice Department would not prosecute any intelligence officer “who acted in good faith and within the scope of the legal guidance given by the Office of Legal Counsel regarding the interrogation of detainees.” In other words, if they abided by the standards and legal guidance set by their superiors — however flawed, immoral and illegal those standards and legal guidance might be — they would not be prosecuted.

I think that’s appropriate and necessary. If we’re not going to prosecute the people at the top who created the torture policy — and clearly we’re not — then we sure as hell shouldn’t prosecute the lowly employees who carried that policy out.

However, if U.S. officials tortured individuals to the point of death, well, that is not the country to which I pledge allegiance, and was not within the bounds of any standards that have so far been made public. We are Americans and Americans aren’t supposed to do that kind of thing. The people we fight may do those things; that’s one reason we fight them.

But we don’t. Or at least we’re not supposed to.

– Jay Bookman

421 comments Add your comment

Left wing management

June 30th, 2011
4:30 pm

It’s all the libruls fault

josef

June 30th, 2011
4:32 pm

And while we’re at it, Eric, habeas corpus, quo vadis…not to beat a dead horse…

Keep Up the Good Fight!

June 30th, 2011
4:33 pm

Absolutely investigate and prosecute all involved to the TOP!….we ARE SUPPOSE to be held to our own higher standards on that.

josef

June 30th, 2011
4:34 pm

“In other words, if they abided by the standards and legal guidance set by their superiors — however flawed, immoral and illegal those standards and legal guidance might be — they would not be prosecuted”

The Nurnberg defense, eh?

Dave R.

June 30th, 2011
4:35 pm

One man’s torture is another man’s enhanced interrogation techniques.

Don’t know which one this is, but Holder is STILL the worst excuse for an Attorney General we’ve had since John Ashcroft and John Mitchell.

@@

June 30th, 2011
4:36 pm

Those last three sentences read like something Bosch would submit.

We are Americans and Americans aren’t supposed to do that kind of thing. The people we fight may do those things; that’s one reason we fight them.

But we don’t. Or at least we’re not supposed to.

Has anybody seen RW? Today’s his birthday.

Happy Birthday, RW….wherever you are.

Brad Steel

June 30th, 2011
4:37 pm

It’s enhanced interrogation. There is no torture.

Real Scooter

June 30th, 2011
4:41 pm

It’s all the libruls fault

You don’t have to keep saying that LWM,I believe you! :grin:

Joe Mama

June 30th, 2011
4:41 pm

Were any of our other veteran posters involved in military intelligence, particularly HUMINT?

I was Army Signal Corps, so the only people we spoke to were miles away.

Left wing management

June 30th, 2011
4:43 pm

josef: “The Nurnberg defense, eh?”

Exactly. But we have to play fair, we’re Democrats after all.

Logical Dude

June 30th, 2011
4:44 pm

Jay says: If we’re not going to prosecute the people at the top who created the torture policy — and clearly we’re not — then we sure as hell shouldn’t prosecute the lowly employees who carried that policy out.

Because that line likely goes up to Cheney and Bush.

Left wing management

June 30th, 2011
4:45 pm

By refusing to play ruthless hardball politics, Democrats ensure endless ruthless hardball politics.

How might they have played ruthless hardball politics? Oh for starters by prosecuting Karl Rove and other Bush administration officials.

Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)

June 30th, 2011
4:45 pm

Well, I see they found out how the inmates down at the Fulton County jail are getting the drugs and the weapons. I guess the folks down there figured it was better to cut out the middle man and just do the dealing theirself. I wish I could of seen those jailers doing the Perp Walk when the FBI showed up at Rice Street this a.m.

Anyhow, sometimes when the CIA questions a prisoner he dies. You know, we all got to go sometime. Besides, what’s another Towelhead in this world full of them? Give the people that done it a gold watch and a nice pension. I guess some of them questions are real hard ones.

I know all the godly Conservatives on this blog will be standing up for the CIA on this one. Especially Scout. He beleives the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim. Besides, it was probly just a little love tap.

Have a good p.m. everybody.

Logical Dude

June 30th, 2011
4:45 pm

We are Americans and Americans aren’t supposed to do that kind of thing. The people we fight may do those things; that’s one reason we fight them.

(repeated line)

Can I get an AMEN?

josef

June 30th, 2011
4:46 pm

DAVE

Holder makes John Mitchell look like Patty Jolly Goodfun…the man is dangerous. He scares the bee-jesus out of me…

Keep Up the Good Fight!

June 30th, 2011
4:47 pm

One man’s torture is another man’s enhanced interrogation techniques

And by either name, torture and unlawful.

Real Scooter

June 30th, 2011
4:47 pm

Well I guess it’s ok if Holder wants to dig up old bones.At least it takes away some of his time from faultsly accusing American gun dealers of supplying drug cartels. The guy is a joke that ain’t funny.

Fred

June 30th, 2011
4:47 pm

Cut off the head and the body will die. I say go for the top.

Dave R.

June 30th, 2011
4:49 pm

josef, if he can scare the bee-jesus out of you, think of what he does to ME! :D

Left wing management

June 30th, 2011
4:49 pm

Logical Dude: “Because that line likely goes up to Cheney and Bush.”

Which would have ensured an unprecedented firestorm of ideological bloodletting and roiling chaos all around, lasting all through Obama’s administration. Which of course would have been just terrible compared to the peace and quiet we’ve seen.

Left wing management

June 30th, 2011
4:51 pm

One man’s torture is another man’s enhanced interrogation techniques

Yep, and one man’s genocide is another man’s heroically acquired final solution.

Logical Dude

June 30th, 2011
4:52 pm

LWM:
“Which would have ensured an unprecedented firestorm of ideological bloodletting ”

I know, I know. . . but if you want to go to who actually approved, ordered, and made policy. . .

Uncle Jed

June 30th, 2011
4:53 pm

March 01, 2011
Black Panther case focus demeans ‘my people’

Attorney General Eric Holder finally got fed up Tuesday with claims that the Justice Department went easy in a voting rights case against members of the New Black Panther Party because they are African American.

Holder’s frustration over the criticism became evident during a House Appropriations subcommittee hearing as Rep. John Culberson (R-Texas) accused the Justice Department of failing to cooperate with a Civil Rights Commission investigation into the handling of the 2008 incident in which Black Panthers in intimidating outfits and wielding a club stood outside a polling place in Philadelphia.

The Attorney General seemed to take personal offense at a comment Culberson read in which former Democratic activist Bartle Bull called the incident the most serious act of voter intimidation he had witnessed in his career
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Investigating these CIA officers demeans my people. One group tried to circumvent the constitutional rights of voters; the other group tried to circumvent terroists. Piteeful.

Dave R.

June 30th, 2011
4:54 pm

“Yep, and one man’s genocide is another man’s heroically acquired final solution.”

Which is why we are a nation of LAWS, and not of MEN, and why that analogy not only does not apply, but is distasteful to use, LWM

Joe Mama

June 30th, 2011
4:54 pm

Logical Dude — “Jay says: If we’re not going to prosecute the people at the top who created the torture policy — and clearly we’re not — then we sure as hell shouldn’t prosecute the lowly employees who carried that policy out.”

Corollary — if the guys who carried the policy out are guilty, then the guys who promulgated and approved the policy are also guilty.

There’s a saying in the military — “s**t rolls downhill.” That is to say that when something gets screwed up, the leadership goes looking for the responsible parties — often junior enlisted men or NCOs — and chews them out.

But there’s another saying — “heat rises.” And THAT is to say that when junior guys were following orders — but the orders or policy were screwy — then whoever ISSUED that policy is the one who’s going to catch hell.

In this case, if the s**t rolls downhill, then I think the heat should rise.

AmVet

June 30th, 2011
4:55 pm

George Bush will forever live with a legacy of disgrace.

He is the ONLY president in our long history who got us added to the list that includes Afghanistan, China, Egypt, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Malaysia, Morocco, Nepal, North Korea, Pakistan, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Uganda, and Uzbekistan.

And you Bushbots don’t even care.

Dave R.

June 30th, 2011
4:57 pm

AmVet, while I do not ever defend GWB, being added to a list of nations as listed above, by a list of nations that are largely a collection of tin-pot dictatorships, does tend to invalidate the addition somewhat.

Left wing management

June 30th, 2011
4:58 pm

Dave R.: “Which is why we are a nation of LAWS, and not of MEN, and why that analogy not only does not apply, but is distasteful to use”

Unless those men wink that a little rough stuff is OK down in the dungeons where nobody can see.

chuck

June 30th, 2011
5:00 pm

Jay, It seems to me that you are assuming an awful lot here. Is there any evidence that they died AS A RESULT OF “TORTURE”? I don’t think so, yet the title of your piece seems to assume that. I know it’s kind of against your standards to presume innocence for people acting in a CONSERVATIVE administration, but I think we owe them that considering that the information gained from these interrogations have saved possibly thousands of AMERICAN LIVES.

Dave R.

June 30th, 2011
5:00 pm

“Unless those men wink that a little rough stuff is OK down in the dungeons where nobody can see.”

And you have first-hand knowledge of this – how?

Dusty

June 30th, 2011
5:01 pm

For goodness sake, “nobody will be prosecuted” But this administration will make Bush look bad if it is the last thing they do. Smear the GOP while OBAMA runs his political driive for reelection.

Probably going to cost millions to do it. But it is WORTHWHILE (to Democrats) so Bookman says as he wipes away the tears. .

In the meantime we have every law in the book against torture. Holder knows it. The military know it. The world knows it. Amnesty knows it. Everybody knows it. The terrorists don’t give a HOOT!! Nor do the drug cartels!

I suggest that Holder work on the terrorists and the cartels before he starts on the American military who already know the rules and are risking their lives to perform as ordered.. Nobody here approves of torture unless under the most extreme set of circumstances and even then it is only live or die for many.

I dislike the extreme pretenses that go on here, like digging up old bones to bark over and acting like PollyAnna the perfect. What a crock!!.

Logical Dude

June 30th, 2011
5:02 pm

When Valerie Plame was outed by the “White House” , Scooter was the fall guy. (not you Scooter, I mean Scooter LIbby)

Of course, it comes out that yes, Cheney and Bush discussed it and felt the correct response to Plame’s husbands article about Iraq’s nuclear material was to just out Plame. They were thinking politically and not reality.

So yes, (my opinion) is that a similar situation happened with “enhanced interrogation”. Cheney – that CIA dude – mentions to Bush, who agrees that any information extraction method is okay. The Law? Oh, we’ll just have a lawyer give us an “out” by saying it’s “legal.”

But they missed the part about winning the hearts and minds of those we are trying to liberate. We MUST be the better option or we lose. Attack a 5 star hotel like the Taliban? They will lose the hearts and minds battle. Help the people by building homes and infrastructure? That will win the hearts and minds. Harshly treat prisoners? That will lose the hearts and minds. Treat Prisoners well, even if they are guilty? That will win the hearts and minds, because there will be some innocent prisoners that will come back out for you or against you. And you want the innocent FOR you.

We have to repair the damage that our use of torture has done to us. We are better than that. Most of the world knows it, but the part of the world still making that decision? They only see the bad part of us. We have to show them we will stand against the bad, and show justice.

Hearts and Minds wins these types of battles, not just armour and bullets.

josef

June 30th, 2011
5:03 pm

“I think that’s appropriate and necessary. If we’re not going to prosecute the people at the top who created the torture policy — and clearly we’re not — then we sure as hell shouldn’t prosecute the lowly employees who carried that policy out.”

Then why, pray tell, are we doing it? We can do without these dictatorship show trials. And you know as well as anybody else that some poor shmo down at the bottom, “just following orders” will be scapegoated and those responsible for issuing the order will get by Scot free. This is hypocracy of the highest order. At the risk of falling too crassly into the vulgar, “either sh*t or get off the pot.”

Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)

June 30th, 2011
5:03 pm

Holder wastes time and resource on what’s nothing more than political theater. Of course that’s what the Obama administration is all about since they lack the ability to govern.

Joe Mama

June 30th, 2011
5:06 pm

Chuck — ” I know it’s kind of against your standards to presume innocence for people acting in a CONSERVATIVE administration, but I think we owe them that considering that the information gained from these interrogations have saved possibly thousands of AMERICAN LIVES.”

Chuck, if it came to trials, you seem to think that this constitutes an affirmative defense. But don’t you think the defense should have to bear the burden of proving that they guy *they* were responsible for *did* actually give up valuable, actionable intelligence that saved lives?

It’s one thing to say ‘they might have gotten information that saved lives,’ but it’s just as possible that the suspect *didn’t* have any such information or if he did, he didn’t give it up.

Left wing management

June 30th, 2011
5:06 pm

Dave R. “And you have first-hand knowledge of this – how?”

Because well-groomed and perfectly self-respecting politicians — people like a certain Santorum from PA, who even claims to be a Christian — not to mention former War Secretaries, will now regularly go on television and actually defend such practices, barely even bothering to conceal what they’re defending. So far has the moral rot gone.

Keep Up the Good Fight!

June 30th, 2011
5:08 pm

The following can be attributed to Jameel Jaffer, deputy legal director at the American Civil Liberties Union:

“While we welcome the announcement that the Justice Department will conduct a full criminal investigation into the deaths of two prisoners in CIA custody, it is difficult to understand the prosecutor’s conclusion that only those two deaths warrant further investigation. For a period of several years, and with the approval of the Bush administration’s most senior officials, the CIA operated an interrogation program that subjected prisoners to unimaginable cruelty and violated both international and domestic law. The narrow investigation that Attorney General Holder announced today is not proportionate to the scale and scope of the wrongdoing.”

Keep Up the Good Fight!

June 30th, 2011
5:10 pm

Dave R…one does not need “first hand knowledge”, court testimony and decisions are an acceptable form of proof under our Constitution.

AmVet

June 30th, 2011
5:11 pm

This is all the result of having a criminally recidivist administration from 2000 – 2008.

Like josef and plenty of others, this is one that really torques me.

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice and whoever was involved in the decision to sanction torture from the highest levels of our government should have been brought up on charges.

Doggone/GA

June 30th, 2011
5:12 pm

“And you know as well as anybody else that some poor shmo down at the bottom, “just following orders” will be scapegoated and those responsible for issuing the order will get by Scot free”

Not neccessarily. These two guys DIED, after all. I think it’s important to be as certain as we can that their interrogators DID act within the bounds of the orders they were given. That the detainees dies is not proof they didn’t, but it warrants an investigation to be as sure as we can.

Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)

June 30th, 2011
5:12 pm

The ACLU specialists in frivolous law suits.

Dave R.

June 30th, 2011
5:12 pm

Santorum and others defend enhanced interrogation techniques not torture.

Left wing management

June 30th, 2011
5:14 pm

Santorum and others defend enhanced interrogation techniques not torture.

Final solution or genocide, take your pick [ yawn ] .. it’s just words after all you know ..

Dusty

June 30th, 2011
5:14 pm

JOSEF,
You got it! But they are NOT going to get off the pot. Election time coming up. Bush did it and therefore you know la la la the bad GOP!!!!! Dems gotta score points where they can get ‘em.

Keep Up the Good Fight!

June 30th, 2011
5:15 pm

Whether called EIT or Torture, a difference without distinction.

Recon, your entitled to your opinion but now you have stated something which purports to be a factual claim. Do prove that the ACLU specialized in frivolous law suits. I am sure you can point to some court decisions that have found that right?

Dave R.

June 30th, 2011
5:15 pm

And I believe that investigating alleged “torture” that occurred in 2002 and 2003 in facilities in Afghanistan and Iraq have little in the way of “evidence” and much in the way of “supposition” to fuel this prosecution.

AmVet

June 30th, 2011
5:15 pm

Enhanced interrogation is Cheneyspeak. It is legalese pyschobabble.

Torture is torture.

Dave R.

June 30th, 2011
5:16 pm

Repeating an incorrect analogy doesn’t suddenly make it correct, LWM, no matter how hard you try.

Jay

June 30th, 2011
5:17 pm

Chuck, remember this guy?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4977986

He’s one of the two in question. So you tell me.

chuck

June 30th, 2011
5:17 pm

Joe Mama, My point was two-fold. First, there is no evidence to this point that they died as a direct result of “torture” whatever that is defined as. In fact, there is no evidence that they were tortured. We therefore should presume that they are INNOCENT, because they are not PROVEN guilty. Second, we know for a fact that interrogations since the first prisoners were captured, have saved lives. We may never know how many thousands of lives have been saved as a result of interrogations, but many, many plots have been foiled and many terrorists have been killed as a result of this information, INCLUDING Bin Laden. I really couldn’t care less if terrorists have been killed either in prison or on the battlefield or by predators. The more the merrier. We ought to be executing them after military trials anyway. It’s crazy that we have kept so many of them at Gitmo and other places without giving them hearings and carrying out justice.

Dave R.

June 30th, 2011
5:18 pm

Ripping my fingernails out is torture.

Playing ABBA 24/7 is an enhanced interrogation technique.

Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)

June 30th, 2011
5:20 pm

The lib’s can’t talk about Obama’s accomplishments with any degree of credibility so they keep going back to Bush. I guess to relieve their anxiety and divert away from the current presidential failure.

Left wing management

June 30th, 2011
5:22 pm

Dave Ur: “Repeating an incorrect analogy doesn’t suddenly make it correct, LWM, no matter how hard you try.”

If I focus on the Nazis, that’s because they bequeathed a whole trove of these euphemisms to us, so there’s quite a bounty to choose from.

Take for example how they used everyday words like Aktion and Sonderaktion to mean “kill Jews”. Euphemisms for things that cause otherwise morally respectable people to flinch with guilt are all the same, Dave.

Keep Up the Good Fight!

June 30th, 2011
5:22 pm

Why Recon…you do continue to post nonsense as if it were fact. But you fail to back up any of your claims…I guess you must be diverting and lacking credibility.

Jay

June 30th, 2011
5:23 pm

Actually, Dusty, Recon, et al, I’m pretty sure this move will cost Obama votes, so the suggestion it is being done out of political calculation is simply wrong.

Quite the contrary, it’s being done despite the probable political damage.

carlosgvv

June 30th, 2011
5:23 pm

Jay, you are right. We are Americans and Americans are certainly not supposed to either do those kind of things or support those who do. However, George W. Bush said he thought God wanted him to be President so it follows he thought he had God’s blessing is condoning torture. You may be certain his mindless Republican followers totally support him in this.

chuck

June 30th, 2011
5:24 pm

Jay, is it possible that those injuries mentioned occurred during his CAPTURE? The article mentions injuries that are more consistent with a fight than they are torture. If as the article says, they attempted to insure that he had enough slack, then it sounds to me like the death was accidental. Regardless, if he did the things he was accused of, I’m not going to shed any tears either way.

Dave R.

June 30th, 2011
5:26 pm

OK, LWM, you continue that particular folly if you must.

AmVet

June 30th, 2011
5:26 pm

“Second, we know for a fact that interrogations since the first prisoners were captured, have saved lives.”

I see this claim made regularly.

I see facts to corroborate it never.

Jay

June 30th, 2011
5:27 pm

I couldn’t guide you there, John Galt, but if Thulsa is around, he has it saved on his hard drive.

Left wing management

June 30th, 2011
5:28 pm

ReCON: “The lib’s can’t talk about Obama’s accomplishments with any degree of credibility so they keep going back to Bush. I guess to relieve their anxiety and divert away from the current presidential failure”

Some of us continue to speak of Bush the same way folks in the Gulf will continue to refer back to Katrina long after many newer storms have come and gone.

Jay

June 30th, 2011
5:29 pm

The death was probably accidental, Chuck. It doesn’t change the fact it occurred during torture.

chuck

June 30th, 2011
5:29 pm

AmVet, maybe that’s because all you read is Bookman. Try reading an actual newspaper, or just google it dude. Really? Even your knucklehead president has repeatedly spoken about this during the past 2 years.

Keep Up the Good Fight!

June 30th, 2011
5:30 pm

Let’s remember that unlike Karl Rove’s attempts to put the DoJ under the political thumb, the DoJ is to be independent of political pressure.

AmVet

June 30th, 2011
5:32 pm

“AmVet, maybe that’s because all you read is Bookman.”

So, chuck.

Humor me and post these “facts”.

I’m sure many here have not seen them.

Dusty

June 30th, 2011
5:33 pm

We have several known antiwar activists on this blog. They would not go to war to protect their country. Seems they would not use extreme measures if a captured terrorists could give info to save their own mother. What WOULD they do? Nothing? A cup of tea? A warm embrace?

It is doubtful that anyone died from torture at the hands of Americans. The so called “torture” at Abu Gharib (lights, noise, naked embarrassment) has already been judged and punishment given.

So now we must diminish our military for the acts of a few which can hardly be proved.

This is a political chase for attention and nothing more. The goal of justice Holder/Dems claim to work for has already been reached and settled. .

Mr Right

June 30th, 2011
5:33 pm

Torture is torture.

Does having to put up with Obama and Holder qualify as torture ?

Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)

June 30th, 2011
5:33 pm

Enhanced interrogation produced critical intel that led to OBL. Leon Panetta didn’t refute that claim. Since Obama allowed the mission to go forward and it can be reasonably assumed that he did so, knowing all of the sources for critical intelligence shouldn’t that make him culpable of utilizing information gained through what the left calls torture?

The Gipper

June 30th, 2011
5:34 pm

No fair, Jay. NPR has already been thoroughly discredited by the Republicans and defunded so anything they have is now officially null and void. Just ask that O’Keefe fella. He’ll tell you.

Doggone/GA

June 30th, 2011
5:34 pm

‘Does having to put up with Obama and Holder qualify as torture ”

No…because you are free to walk away any time you like. Torture victims can’t.

pogo

June 30th, 2011
5:35 pm

Once again Obama is using his dumb-@$$ lapdog Holder and the Justice Dept. in some desperate attempt to make some statement about the moral integrity of his administration. At first I thought Obama was somewhat intelligent. Now he just looks plain dumb and more and more like a desperate foundering candidate who will say and do anything to get re-elected. Most Americans couldn’t care less if our intelligence agencies kill suspected terrorists in their attempt to obtain information. I loved the Washington Post’s roast of Obama’s speech the other day. Even they, being the liberal supporting paper that they are, saw that he is just plain full of, well, himself and nothing else. He has nothing to offer to our country other than garbled words and vague promises and of course, throwing blame for his failures on someone else. Have you ever seen Obama accept responsiblity for just one thing that has gone wrong during his presidency? That alone should make even his supporters take notice, but it won’t. Jay is a follower and so are the rest of the Obama loving liberals here. They know nothing but unquestioning obedience to their ideological leader. Sad.

Keep Up the Good Fight!

June 30th, 2011
5:35 pm

I am with you AmVet….in fact, despite the attempted claims to link “torture” to deriving credible evidence, other than Fox, a few republicans and former Bushies, no one makes the claim or has proven a direct link.

Dusty

June 30th, 2011
5:35 pm

Bookman

You should use the word “probably” more often. It is the foundation for most of your introductions.

F. Sinkwich

June 30th, 2011
5:35 pm

Two dead terrorist dirtbag scums.

Yawn…

chuck

June 30th, 2011
5:36 pm

Jay, If he had unknown injuries, the death is an accident, if the techniques used by the interrogators would not have killed him otherwise. In addition, the fact that he was shackled and interrogated does not constitute torture. If it did, every law enforcement agency in the world is guilty of torture.

Also, the term homicide, is used here to assume that a criminal act occurred because that is what people assume when they hear that word. It actually is defined as the killing of one human being by another. Although the term homicide is sometimes used synonymously with murder, homicide is broader in scope than murder. Murder is a form of criminal homicide; other forms of homicide might not constitute criminal acts. These homicides are regarded as justified or excusable. For example, individuals may, in a necessary act of Self-Defense, kill a person who threatens them with death or serious injury, or they may be commanded or authorized by law to kill a person who is a member of an enemy force or who has committed a serious crime. Typically, the circumstances surrounding a killing determine whether it is criminal. The intent of the killer usually determines whether a criminal homicide is classified as murder or Manslaughter and at what degree.

Dave R.

June 30th, 2011
5:39 pm

Dusty, Jay failed “Qualifier 101″ in college.

He’s more of an “I know everything I know” absolutist. ;)

Left wing management

June 30th, 2011
5:39 pm

Dusty: “We have several known antiwar activists on this blog”

Oh really? Who are they?

Keep Up the Good Fight!

June 30th, 2011
5:39 pm

Recon again the factual content of your post is lacking. CIA chief Leon Panetta stated in his letter to McCain:

Let me further point out that we first learned about the facilitator/courier’s nom de guerre from a detainee not in CIA custody in 2002,” the letter stated. “It is also important to note that some detainees who were subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques attempted to provide false or misleading information about the facilitator/courier. These attempts to falsify the facilitator/courier’s role were alerting.”

“In the end, no detainee in CIA custody revealed the facilitator/courier’s full true name or specific whereabouts,” Panetta added. “This information was discovered through other intelligence means.”

Torture is contrary to the law of this land.

Jay

June 30th, 2011
5:40 pm

“Enhanced interrogation produced critical intel that led to OBL. Leon Panetta didn’t refute that claim.”

I’ve never seen that claim made by anybody in a position to know. I’ve seen the claim made that people who were tortured LATER produced useful intel. You could argue they did so because of the torture. You could argue that they did so despite of the torture. But no one could ever prove either point.

Dave R.

June 30th, 2011
5:41 pm

Now it’s off to feed the canines and the Dave R.

Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)

June 30th, 2011
5:41 pm

Maybe Eric Holder should conduct an investigation into the death of Bin Ladin and was he tortured. Did the White House know he was tortured before being executed. Did the White House cover it up by ordering his body dumped at sea, so no official cause of death could be documented.

Paulo977

June 30th, 2011
5:42 pm

josef

“not to beat a dead horse”

Sometimes necessary to get widespread attention!!!

Left wing management

June 30th, 2011
5:42 pm

Jay: “You could argue they did so because of the torture. You could argue that they did so despite of the torture. But no one could ever prove either point.”

But that’s not good enough for our friend Recon you see because if you say no one was able to prove it didn’t produce useful intel (a “counter-factual”) then that’s all he needs to hear to persist in his belief in its value.

Keep Up the Good Fight!

June 30th, 2011
5:43 pm

Recon, shame on you for accusing those SEALs of violating law and torturing. That is simply disgraceful.

Jay

June 30th, 2011
5:44 pm

And Keep is correct: Torture is against the law. As the federal code states:

§ 2340A. Torture

(a) Offense.— Whoever outside the United States commits or attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if death results to any person from conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall be punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life.
(b) Jurisdiction.— There is jurisdiction over the activity prohibited in subsection (a) if—
(1) the alleged offender is a national of the United States; or
(2) the alleged offender is present in the United States, irrespective of the nationality of the victim or alleged offender.
(c) Conspiracy.— A person who conspires to commit an offense under this section shall be subject to the same penalties (other than the penalty of death) as the penalties prescribed for the offense, the commission of which was the object of the conspiracy.

Now. What part of “illegal” do you not understand?

Paul

June 30th, 2011
5:44 pm

People may not like the policy and may feel it was flawed, immoral and/or illegal, but it still remains it was legal.

Procedures were established to ensure death did not occur. Generally speaking, it was a safe bet deaths would not occur, as the techniques were comprised of

- grabbing the prisoner’s shirt and shaking him
- getting slapped with an open hand
- getting an open-hand belly slap (no fists)
- standing for a long time
- being kept in a 50 degree cell and doused with cold water
and if you were one of the unlucky three to twelve, waterboarded.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Investigation/story?id=1322866

I’d use the official report we discussed some months back but can’t locate the bookmark.

So it’s also a safe assumption if someone died, someone exceeded the rules. Since only 14 interrogators were trained in the techniques, it could be a case of untrained personnel carrying out actions they were neither trained nor authorized to do. If so, they should be held accountable.

josef

June 30th, 2011
5:46 pm

Jay…

As you like to say, I’m calling major BS on it not being political…of course it is. And any votes it costs will be those of us out here who are saying that if you don’t go get the ones at the top you ain’t done nothing but grandstand for political reasons. The Iraq pictures are sensational enough and horrible and against everything we are supposed to believe in. Facts are, though, that they were operating under orders (right, try and find one, again the Nurnberg defense) from above. Certainly get their asses, but not before you get those who “issued” the order to begin with.

These are politically motivated show trials in the offing and nothing more…

Jefferson

June 30th, 2011
5:46 pm

Things are better than 2 years ago, fact.

getalife

June 30th, 2011
5:47 pm

Torture is evil.

The President ended it.

There are counties that want to prosecute.

AmVet

June 30th, 2011
5:47 pm

LWM, careful. You’ll be deemed a subversive soon.

A guy who knew a couple things about torture thought it important enough to get enacted The Detainee Treatment Act of 2005.

It is clear. Notwithstanding the Bush team of lawyers excellent parsing skills, NO torture.

I found this insightful:

After approving the bill President Bush issued a signing statement: an official document in which a president lays out his interpretation of a new law. In it Bush said:

“The executive branch shall construe Title X in Division A of the Act, relating to detainees, in a manner consistent with the constitutional authority of the President to supervise the unitary executive branch and as Commander in Chief and consistent with the constitutional limitations on the judicial power, which will assist in achieving the shared objective of the Congress and the President, evidenced in Title X, of protecting the American people from further terrorist attacks.”

F. Sinkwich

June 30th, 2011
5:47 pm

I think those two miscreants just tripped over a chair or sumthin’…..

Nothing to see here, folks.

Jay

June 30th, 2011
5:48 pm

I strongly disagree, Josef.

Torturing “terrorists,” even those who may not actually BE terrorists, is pretty popular stuff.

Prosecuting heroic CIA agents for what they did to “terrorists,” even if they didn’t actually happen to be terrorists, is very UNpopular. And the number of those who, like yourself, will vote against Obama because he also didn’t prosecute Cheney, Bush, et al is minuscule compared to the number who may vote against him because he dared to “defend terrorists.”

Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)

June 30th, 2011
5:48 pm

“Recon again the factual content of your post is lacking. CIA chief Leon Panetta stated in his letter to McCain:” I followed closely. Post a link to that letter and please don’t utilize media matters or the Huffington Post.

chuck

June 30th, 2011
5:49 pm

Recon makes an excellent point, Jay. The Navy Seals that captured this terrorist had to defend themselves when he resisted the attempt to be captured. If that constitutes “TORTURE”, how much more should the EXECUTION of Osama Bin Laden without any attempt to capture him (at the orders of Barack HUSSEIN Obama) be considered a criminal act?

josef

June 30th, 2011
5:49 pm

POGO
Blunty put, you’re wrong. Holder is not Obama’s lap dog…vice versa.

Dusty

June 30th, 2011
5:50 pm

Leftwing management……yes, really!!

If you haven’t noticed the antiwar people here, there’s no use me telling you who they are. But I will give you a clue. They are not Republicans or Independents. I have read this blog since Luckovich shut down.. The antiwar people have cooled a bit but are still obvious. Go ahead! Give it a try!!

Jay

June 30th, 2011
5:52 pm

And Paul, I have to disagree with your statement that it was legal.

Here’s how the federal code defines torture (I previously posted the prohibition of the practice):

§ 2340. Definitions

As used in this chapter—
(1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
(2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—
(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
(C) the threat of imminent death; or
(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality; and
(3) “United States” means the several States of the United States, the District of Columbia, and the commonwealths, territories, and possessions of the United States.

Brosephus

June 30th, 2011
5:52 pm

I can see already that this will be one of those partisaned sh*tholes that I don’t wanna climb down into. Y’all have fun with this one….

Keep Up the Good Fight!

June 30th, 2011
5:52 pm

Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)

June 30th, 2011
5:53 pm

Off to pick up my daughter. Catch y’all later.