Who pays — and who doesn’t pay — income taxes
The Tax Policy Center has released its latest statistics about who pays — and who does not pay — federal income taxes. According to its numbers, 46.4 percent of “tax units” in America will pay no income tax this year.
More than half of those non-paying units make less than $16,812. More than 80 percent make less than $33,542. Some will no doubt focus their outrage on those lower-income folks, but I’m more intrigued by the fact that 3,000 “tax units” with incomes above $2.18 million paid no income tax. All in all, 446,000 “tax units” with incomes above $103,465 paid no income tax on that money, a figure that includes capital gains taxes.
Now let’s put that in context, historical and otherwise.
First, personal income taxes account for just 44 percent of federal revenue. Payroll taxes account for 37.1 percent of revenue this year, and those taxes are paid by almost all of these “tax units” who don’t pay income taxes, with the exception of those whose main income is Social Security, pensions or investments.
Second, while the percentage of revenue raised through the personal income tax has remained relatively stable since World War II, the mix of revenue from other sources has shifted noticeably. Compared to 60 years ago, the payroll tax has tripled in importance as a revenue source, while the corporate income tax has fallen by two-thirds.
Let the call to raise taxes on the poor, the elderly on fixed income and lower-income earners begin.
– Jay Bookman
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720 comments Add your comment
Ivan
June 29th, 2011
10:15 am
“Let the call to raise taxes on the poor, the elderly on fixed income and lower-income earners begin.”
Jay, You should take it up with the left. They’re the ones calling for tax increases.
thomas
June 29th, 2011
10:15 am
markey mark
June 29th, 2011
10:12 am
Different posters have different rules!
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
June 29th, 2011
10:15 am
markey mark
June 29th, 2011
10:12 am
I didn’t mind him calling me a name. It just shows the true colors of the left.
thomas
June 29th, 2011
10:17 am
melvinowens
June 29th, 2011
10:13 am
Why if we are all created equal?
Or are you saying we are all created equal, but then depending on what we do with our lives our responsibility to support others increases?
If thats so why?
(ir)Rational
June 29th, 2011
10:17 am
melvin – I would say luckily your opinion doesn’t count for much, but unfortunately there are a lot of people in Washington that seem to have the same opinion as you. Why shouldn’t they get the money they overpaid to the government back? If they have paid their share, which is what it means when you get a refund, then why not give them the amount the government was loaned back? I guess we could tax them all at a higher rate, but that wouldn’t really help much. The deficit and debt level would still be climbing at astronomical rates, and common sense tells me that more people will be out of work if their employers are taxed at a higher rate.
Chris
June 29th, 2011
10:17 am
Jay – is your philosophy that ALL income belongs to the governmant and it is up to that government to decide what amount is a “fair” and “moral” amount that the individual should be allowed to keep for themselves? Or do you believe ALL income is the property of the individual and the government should only be given the minimum required to pay for basic constitutional government duties?
TjAtl
June 29th, 2011
10:18 am
Jumping into the CJ / Jimmy62 corporate tax debate:
Jimmy62 said: “Basically you are saying the cost of making an item (which does include taxes) has nothing to do with the price that item will be sold at.”
Accounting 101 – corporate income taxes are not included in Cost of Goods Sold. Taxes on materials and/or services used in the creation of the goods sold *may* be part of COGS, but most often there are no sales taxes paid on these items if they’re used to make something for sale. Income taxes are paid on net profits.
Left wing management
June 29th, 2011
10:19 am
Leg lamp: “You’ve got to be kidding. Eliminating the “Bush tax cuts for the rich” would generate just how much income each year? We’re $14 trillion in debt! Also, why didn’t Obama end the “Bush tax cuts for the rich” as promised?”
If you read my statement carefully you’ll see that I emphasized “for ALL brackets”, though obviously the phaseout should begin with the top brackets. I don’t have the numbers in front of me but I’ve seen charts showing that simply by removing these ruinous tax cuts, the deficit over the short to mid-term is gradually brought back down to manageable levels.
So why did Obama fail to end them?
As I’ve repeated on here ad nauseam — he did it out of pure political calculation (very unwisely in my view) and timidity. He expressly stated at the time that he did it despite being strongly opposed to it personally, claiming that his arm was twisted by the “hostage taking” of his opponents. How exactly you stop the process of hostage taking once you’ve conceded to it, was never explained by the president and in my view that is playing no small role in the troubles he’s currently having in the latest round of hostage taking over the debt ceiling.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
June 29th, 2011
10:20 am
Chris
June 29th, 2011
10:17 am
Great question, but don’t hold your breath for an appropriate answer.
Bosch
June 29th, 2011
10:21 am
I’ve posted this several times before, but if we just suddenly cut all the “welfare” programs — our economy would suffer even more so. The people who receive those benefits do not save them or put them towards their children’s trust funds, they spend it — all of it. It goes right back into the economy, so by all means, lets blame the poor folks and make them the scape goats — that’s so easy.
The other thing is, in the perfect world, people would all work and make a decent living and things would be like it is in the Cleaver world, but it’s not. People do not just vanish and attitudes do not change overnight. If you take away food stamps, TANF, etc. you will see a rise in criminal activity, meaning we will have to pay more for incarceration.
And to those who think there are “welfare” programs (whatever that means) for anyone who wants it, there are eligibility requirements, I have posted those several times for anyone who wants to educate themselves — which include, a work requirement, and a lifetime limit.
But by all means, lets continue to blame the poor folks — it’s always easier to do that.
Jay
June 29th, 2011
10:21 am
Under Reagan, they went down so steeply that Reagan was forced to sign a series of tax INCREASES — including the largest non-wartime tax hike in the nation’s history — to compensate.
Under Bush, tax revenues didn’t top 2000 levels until 2006 (by all of $14 billion, inflation adjusted), and by 2008 they had again fallen BELOW 2000 levels.
(ir)Rational
June 29th, 2011
10:21 am
Jay – so when the tax cuts were fully implemented, and the new jobs were created around 2005 and 2006, and more people were paying taxes, revenues were down? Interesting. What about when Kennedy implemented tax cuts and revenues went up? Or when Clinton did in the 90s? I’m confused, does more tax payers equal higher tax revenues or am I missing something?
AmVet – wrong, we live in a democratic republic. There is a difference. In a democracy, everyone has a vote on everything. In a democratic republic, like we live in, we elect people to make decisions for us. We don’t vote on everything.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
June 29th, 2011
10:22 am
Left wing management
June 29th, 2011
10:19 am
Obama “did it out of pure political calculation (very unwisely in my view) and timidity”. That is how he governs and that is why our country is in a huge mess.
(ir)Rational
June 29th, 2011
10:24 am
Jay now blames the lost income due to a recession on the Bush era tax cuts everyone.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
June 29th, 2011
10:24 am
Bosch
June 29th, 2011
10:21 am
“But by all means, lets continue to blame the poor folks — it’s always easier to do that.”
Or blame conservatives which is what the left always does.
the red herring
June 29th, 2011
10:24 am
JB–a person that i worked with was married and had two children–the wife chose not to work until the kids were in school–each year they got back every dime they paid in income tax plus about $3500 per year in earned income tax credits (duplicate welfare). they put their income tax refund back into household budget and used the $3500 to take the kids to disney world for a week each year. Now how is that fair to the person who worked for that $3500 to have it taken from them so that this family could spend it like this?? i agree every person in america (even those on government welfare/assistance programs) should be paying into the pot so that everybody does actually have some skin in the game. right now far too many people do not. in these economic times i am sure many people with huge incomes lost money as well so indeed they may not have paid income tax on that basis—however during the years where they made a lot of money they paid a ton of taxes—been there done that—all the more reason for the government to get off the backs of private business and let this economy get going again. the only thing that has benefited from obamanomics has been the stock market and that is due to the printing of money and the crazy monetary policy of QE1 and QE2….
getalife
June 29th, 2011
10:24 am
I like the cons turning against the rich and corporate power.
There are none here.
thomas
June 29th, 2011
10:24 am
Jay
June 29th, 2011
10:21 am
So then why not eliminate Bush tax cuts for ALL?
Is it your attempt to stir up class warfare?
Or is it your attempt to garner votes for the democrat party????????
Didn’t president Obama say he would eliminate Bush tax cuts????? Why no Blame thrown his way by you? Oops nevermind forgot about the garnering of votes for democrats, my bad!
Jay
June 29th, 2011
10:26 am
The tax cuts were supposed to protect AGAINST recessions, remember (ir)Rational.
You cannot try to cite real-world evidence (”tax cuts increased revenue”) and then, when proved wrong, try to claim that real-world evidence doesn’t apply.
Mr Charlie
June 29th, 2011
10:26 am
Truth is, we gotta figure out a way to get the 46 who don’t pay paying. Sure, the high income folks need to be addressed, every tax system will fail if only half the people contribute. Bottom line is, if you don’t pay taxes, you don’t belong in the conversation.
Poor, Poor, Pitiful Thee
June 29th, 2011
10:26 am
I see irRational is living up to his name.
Ivan
June 29th, 2011
10:26 am
“Or blame conservatives which is what the left always does.”
Careful, Leg. You’ll start another liberal, mob-like riot.
Mary Elizabeth
June 29th, 2011
10:26 am
real john @ 9:29 a.m.
Most of your points are “talking points” fed out to the public by some conservative media outlets.
According to the Tax Policy Center’s data as shown in the graph above, percentage of federal revenues by source went from 27% in 1951 to 9% in 2011. It seems to me that – all things being equal – America has more corporations today than in 1951, so that the % of of federal revenues paid by corporations should have been more today than 60 years ago.
Of course, all things are not equal. I’m posting this today in the hope that some readers will understand that there has been a deliberate attempt to change the wealth of this nation to the benefit of the top 5% especially in the past 30 years.
Over the past weekend, Republican governors from Florida, Ohio, Wisconsin, and Virginia, among others met in a stealthy meeting – deliberately not written into their agendas – with the Koch Brothers. (Source: Rachel Maddow Show, 6/28/11). Many Republican politicians are bought and sold by corporate interests. I hope that middle and working class Americans – Republican and Democrats -will start to wake up to what is happening and vote for your own interests.
The Republican bloc in Congress, is not interested in raising the debt ceiling at this time for the same reasons. Higher eschelon Republicans have tried to dismantle entitlements such as Social Security and Medicare for decades. Because of their ideological interests – such as the interests of the Koch Brothers – it is “now or never” time for those interests to began dismantling Medicare. (Chris Hayes of “The Nation,” earlier this week on the Rachel Maddow Show)
So, readers, bottom line, do you want an America that impairs Medicare and Social Security while at the same time enhances corporations’ control over your destiny? Class warfare? I think so. Better to recognize it for what it is and deal with it, than to deny that there has been a deliberate attempt – from Supreme Court Justice appointments down – to alter the structure of our government to serve the interests of the most wealthy. (Recent Supreme Court Decisions: Corporations = People; Wal-Mart vs. Women employees) Those with this extreme Rightwing ideological drive have the money and political contacts to achieve their ends. And, in the process change the soul of this nation, IMO.
All that the middle and working class have are their votes and their minds to see what is happening. Use your minds to see beyond the propaganda talking points of a coordinated Rightwing media. Use your hands to cast your ballot against these interests – and for the interests of working and middle class Americans.
(Again, the data in the charts above say what is happening to America even more dramatically than my words.)
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
June 29th, 2011
10:27 am
There is obviously no way to know who will win the 2012 election for POTUS, but let’s assume a GOP candidate wins. In June of 2015, will the left accept the excuse from the POTUS and the GOP that the problems the country is facing is because of Obama?
Soothsayer
June 29th, 2011
10:28 am
U.S.-based multinational corporations and their lobbyists are pushing hard for a so-called “tax holiday” that would repatriate the earnings from their foreign subsidiaries, arguing that it would inject up to $1 trillion into the U.S. economy, but the prospects for job growth are murky at best.
Companies like Apple, Cisco, Duke Energy, Google, Microsoft, Pfizer and Qualcomm are part of the Win America Campaign, which has been steadily building up support on Capitol Hill for a tax break on repatriated earnings. Instead of paying up to 35 percent in taxes on the earnings, the companies want the tax rate reduced to 5.25 percent for one year on the money they have been stashing abroad. So far, the Obama administration has argued that any reduction on corporate taxes should be part of an overall tax reform effort that would also entail corporations giving up some of their cherished tax breaks.
We (corporations) want to bring all of the money we made by shipping your jobs and factories overseas back into this country, BUT we don’t want to have to pay tax on it! See how simple that is?
Poor, Poor, Pitiful Thee
June 29th, 2011
10:28 am
Some people appear to have forgotten the deal Obama chose to make with the Republicans in order to get them to agree to an extension of unemployment benefits.
Left wing management
June 29th, 2011
10:29 am
Chris: “Jay – is your philosophy that ALL income belongs to the governmant and it is up to that government to decide what amount is a “fair” and “moral” amount that the individual should be allowed to keep for themselves?”
You’re statement implies that the government is completely separate from the people. The government is – in principle – a direct representative of the people. Therefore you shouldn’t be speaking of the “government” as something completely alien and imposed from without.
“Or do you believe ALL income is the property of the individual and the government should only be given the minimum required to pay for basic constitutional government duties?”
Again, since the government is an expression of the will of the people, it doesn’t make any sense to speak of money as belonging to the individual first and only after that to the government.
The fundamental fact that the right wing and libertarianism tries with all their effort to repress is the fact that there is no such thing as an individual prior to society. The “individual” is a PRODUCT of society. Now let the hysterical catcalls of protest begin …
getalife
June 29th, 2011
10:30 am
The President wants to go back to Clinton taxes that have us prosperity .
I support our President.
thomas
June 29th, 2011
10:30 am
Bosch,
when gov’t programs like food stamps (EBT cards) are put back into the economy it really isn’t as it is just the same money they we already paid in being recyled back. It stunts or slows job growth and economic recovery.
Let us not play foolish either and pretend as if food stamps are not one of the more abused systems that we currently have.
example you ask…… regardless of the site as I know nothing about it….this was the first one from Google…
http://fellowshipofminds.wordpress.com/2011/05/29/food-stamps-used-to-buy-lobsters-and-steaks/
those downtrodden poor people.
BTW when was the last time you spent $141.78 on lobster and porterhouses?
I’m just glad we have a program to make sure each and every amricn can buy food…
willie lynch
June 29th, 2011
10:30 am
thomas
June 29th, 2011
10:24 am
Unlike the GOP President Obama realises that governing is compromise. The GOP would rather drive the bus off the cliff because someone else said apply the brakes.
The GOP representitves are foolish to a fault.
Left wing management
June 29th, 2011
10:31 am
Leg lamp: “Obama “did it out of pure political calculation (very unwisely in my view) and timidity”. That is how he governs and that is why our country is in a huge mess.”
Ok, on that we can definitely agree – partly.
Mighty Righty
June 29th, 2011
10:31 am
At the present time, Interest on the national debt is roughly 800 billion a year. Social Security cost is approximately 700 billion a year. The governmnet can pay both and have more than a trillion dollars left over to do what ever they want. I don’t see a problem.
Joe Mama
June 29th, 2011
10:31 am
Leg Lamp — “The libs believe all life begins and ends with the government. If you want to see how a nanny state functions, look at the news clips from Greece.”
Actually, look at Sweden. And they’re doing better than us, economically speaking.
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2011/06/go-swedish-part-47/
(ir)Rational
June 29th, 2011
10:32 am
So Jay, since I’m “ignoring” the facts here. When Clinton left office, and before the Bush era tax cuts went into effect, were revenues to the government going up, or were they going down? Did the tax cuts seem to spur more job growth when they were implemented or did the unemployment rate stay the same? If I remember correctly, and I will admit that my memory on the subject might not be the best as I was pretty young then, sometime around 1999 was when the “dot com bubble” burst sending us into a small recession. Then, further memory says we were starting to recover from that when 9/11 happened pushing us deeper in the financial hole, and we finally recovered (sorta) around 2006, just in time for everything to go right back into the crapper. Correct me where I’m ignoring the facts on that one.
thomas
June 29th, 2011
10:32 am
Poor, Poor, Pitiful Thee
June 29th, 2011
10:28 am
So you think that was a good deal?
Leaders lead others, seems like he is being led.
thomas
June 29th, 2011
10:33 am
willie lynch
June 29th, 2011
10:30 am
So your argument is that it was a wise move by Obama to make a bad decision?
Wow now thats a different kind of logic than I am used to.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
June 29th, 2011
10:33 am
getalife
June 29th, 2011
10:30 am
First off, Obama is no Clinton.
Second, how “prosperous” would the Clinton years have been had the housing/banking industry collapsed? If 9/11 had happened a mere 7+ months after taking office? If he didn’t have the telecom industry bubble which burst shortly after Bush took office? No way of knowing, but just some food for thought.
(ir)Rational
June 29th, 2011
10:34 am
Joe – why not look at Europe as a whole? If Sweden isn’t having to drastically cut services, then they seem to be the exception, not the rule. Greece seems to be on the opposite end, but the Greek example is closer to the rule than the Sweden example is.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
June 29th, 2011
10:35 am
Joe Mama
June 29th, 2011
10:31 am
And look at Greece. How are things going in that nanny state?
BADA BING
June 29th, 2011
10:35 am
Taxes are not the problem. JOBSJOBSJOBSJOBS. With jobs comes more tax money, with jobs there are less people to pay unemployment $ to, with jobs, people get their pride back, with jobs, America becomes great again. LASER FOCUS on JOBS.
AmVet
June 29th, 2011
10:35 am
(ir)Rational, I see your mistake of logic and vocabulary posited here with some regularity.
You are still incorrect.
The two terms are not mutually exclusive.
Your failure lies in the lack of a *critically* important qualifier – DIRECT or PURE democracy.
And there are even elements of that in our governance…
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 29th, 2011
10:35 am
Jay and his followers spending another day blabbering talking points from the left wing think tanks. Check back later to see if there’s a worthy thread topic. This one isn’t.
Bosch
June 29th, 2011
10:36 am
thomas,
I am under no delusion that there is waste and abuse in these programs — but that is by no means reason to simply do away with them as I see them as more beneficial. If you suspect fraud or abuse, report it.
I chose to form my opinions on the facts as outlined in the eligibility requirements set forth by the state instead of some obviously biased reporting throwing out red herrings in a vain effort to disuade attitudes towards these programs that help millions of people from starving and being on the street.
Also, most of these programs — the eligibility requirements are based on children in the household, there are no programs for adults with no kids or for those who are not disabled. So if you want to punish children or the disabled for their situations, then you go with that.
Mighty Righty
June 29th, 2011
10:36 am
willie lynch
June 29th, 2011
10:30 am
thomas
June 29th, 2011
10:24 am
“Unlike the GOP President Obama realises that governing is compromise. The GOP would rather drive the bus off the cliff because someone else said apply the brakes.”
“The GOP representitves are foolish to a fault.”
One cannot compromise with someone holding a gun about which part of your head you will agree to let him shoot.
USinUK
June 29th, 2011
10:36 am
Hi everyone – can’t stay and play, just thought I’d pop in and say hello
have a good one!
getalife
June 29th, 2011
10:38 am
The Clinton team knows how to balance the budget and the tax revenue stream to help balance the budget.
Taking it off the table proves the gop and their cons are not serious about this issue and just playing politics like they always do.
So, shut up about spending cons.
You are not serious and everybody knows it.
Gary
June 29th, 2011
10:38 am
Everyone should pay taxes. No matter how little you make you should have to write a check for $1000 every year to the government. Regardless of deductions (a please get rid of the earned income tax credit) or income pay a grand. You would quickly see a change in attitude over the cost of goverment and the programs people demand. Reduce the corporate tax rate to zero, nada, nothing since the consumer is responsible for paying it in the cost of goods a services. Create a sales tax to cover the corporate taxes. Get rid of all deductions and simply have tax be a percentage of your income with a mandatory minimum. Sorry granny, give the govt 1k. That would take most of the power away from Washington. Half the lobbyist would be fired because they would not be needed. GE could fire most of their tax accountants. Companies would move back to the US quicly bringing much needed jobs. As far as the rich. They would pay their fair share as well in the form of income tax and sales tax and they would not have the deductions and tax shelters to hide money in. Everyone would share the burden of the monster we created.
(ir)Rational
June 29th, 2011
10:38 am
AmVet – the fact remains that our system of government is not a democracy. Pure, direct or otherwise. We live in a democratic republic.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
June 29th, 2011
10:40 am
I always love how the cons trot out their “nanny state” rants and cry “we dont want no nanny state” but when they discuss women’s medical issues, a nanny state is literally very acceptable.
james
June 29th, 2011
10:41 am
Soothsayer @ 10:03am, Thank you for pointing out my SUTA decimal point error, Average salary used was $43,000/yr. The corporation pays ALL the taxes out of the payroll. The employee then has a chance to recollect these taxes when they file their individual taxes. Now out of $100.00 of payroll the government in general collects $40.00, the employee $60.00, out of the $60.00 the employee gets to pay other taxes like property, sales …….
Our government has pulled the wool over most peoples eyes with their manipulation of when, where and how their taxes are removed from their pockets.
Cut spending!
(ir)Rational
June 29th, 2011
10:41 am
getalife – Just who was it that controlled Congress when Clinton was making us all so prosperous? Cause they’re the ones that balanced out the budget, Clinton just agreed to it and signed it. Before two years ago, I never thought I would say that I wished a Clinton was president, but I’ll say it now. At least the Clintons understand the concept of negotiation and working with others to achieve both sets of goals.
Doggone/GA
June 29th, 2011
10:41 am
“Everyone should pay taxes”
Everyone does
Joe Mama
June 29th, 2011
10:42 am
Leg Lamp — “And look at Greece. How are things going in that nanny state?”
I think that, if you are honest and look at the social and governmental structures of Greece and Sweden, you will come to the conclusion that Sweden is *much* more of a nanny state than Greece is.
And how are things going in Sweden? Better than here, economically speaking.
Really
June 29th, 2011
10:42 am
Jay for once I agree with you the liberal democrats are the only idiots that want raise taxes, so thanks for your GOP support. But the FairTax.org would get rid all of the tax loopholes for the rich.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
June 29th, 2011
10:43 am
getalife
June 29th, 2011
10:38 am
Hey everyone, getaclue said all conservatives should just shut up. I guess we need to leave now…….BAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
George P. Burdell
June 29th, 2011
10:43 am
Jay:
In the above graphs, if payroll taxes includes the amount payed by corporations, I think it significantly changes the reasoning about why taxes have shifted so much from 1951 to 2011. Using rough estimates, it appears in 1951 corporations paid about 27% in income tax and 5% in payroll taxes for a total of 32%. In 2011, that drops to 10% and increases to 18% for a total of 28%. Lower yes, but not nearly as dramatic as the chart implies. Since taxes are a cost and reduce income, the 13% change in payroll taxes paid by corporations would reduce income tax on them by roughly a third, or 4%. It appears to me that all of the difference in corporate share of taxes can be directly attributed to the dramatic increase in payroll taxes over this period.
(ir)Rational
June 29th, 2011
10:44 am
Joe – if Sweden is so great, maybe you should move there? I’m not trying to be smart by saying that, but as I was trying to point out before, Sweden seems to be more the exception than the rule.
RB from Gwinnett
June 29th, 2011
10:44 am
What would you libs tell your kids if they demanded more allowance from you than you made for things you don’t believe they need and they refused to change their own habits to earn their own money? Would you go into debt to make them happy or tell them “NO”?
Thats exactly how you liberals sound to those paying the bills.
Gordon
June 29th, 2011
10:45 am
Jay,
I think the question of whether tax cuts raise revenue over the long term (obviously they don’t in the very short term) is determined by the environment in which it is done. When money is tight, it does seem to raise revenue after a period of several years. That wasn’t the case when Bush did it but I believe this happened under JFK and RWR.
Also, you seem to think that tax rates and government revenue operate in a vacuum. Could the reason revenues dropped after 2001 have something to do with 9/11? Could the reason revenues went up in the latter part of the Clinton administration have something to do with the dot com bubble? Tax rates do affect the way people behave, especially in certain economic conditions.
Bosch
June 29th, 2011
10:45 am
“if Sweden is so great, maybe you should move there?”
Oh wow. The blog equivalent of “if you love taxes so much why don’t you marry them.”
getalife
June 29th, 2011
10:45 am
Greece invented democracy.
Now they are bankrupt because their democracy failed.
When everybody games the system is time for change.
Bosch
June 29th, 2011
10:46 am
“Thats exactly how you liberals sound to those paying the bills”
RB seems to think that “liberals” don’t pay taxes. I’d wager that I pay more taxes than many of the wingnuts here.
Left wing management
June 29th, 2011
10:47 am
Actually, Leg lamp, I think I need to rephrase what I said earlier about Obama agreeing to extend the Bush tax cuts “out of pure political calculation (very unwisely in my view) and timidity” somewhat.
I think it’s closer to the truth to say that Obama failed to let them expire almost exclusively out of timidity, and not so much out of political calculation in the cynical sense. I think that this president — and it will be his downfall, if you ask me — refuses to face up to the inherent cruelty of ideological battles and that means he can be endlessly manipulated by those with no such compunctions. In the case of the budget battles last December, Obama let his hand be forced because he couldn’t bear to see unemployment benefits cut off, thus causing suffering. But what he failed to face was the fact that by that very act he emboldened his enemies — who are also the enemies of the people — and made more future suffering by those same people virtually unavoidable. Moreover, the Republicans pushing the cuts in unemployment benefits were after all democratically elected, so in a sense shielding the voters from the results of their choices (even if their choice was not to vote) was a kind of enabling that in the long run serves no one.
(ir)Rational
June 29th, 2011
10:47 am
Bosch – you’re correct, that was more than a little childish, but I stand by the thought behind it. I should have just figured out a better way to express that thought.
getalife
June 29th, 2011
10:50 am
Leg.
Yes, you are playing politics for the election and not serious about solutions.
You are marginalizing yourselves.
The adults will provide solutions while you cons play politics.
The adult will have a press conference today.
Pay attention if you can.
Gimme Me Free Stuff
June 29th, 2011
10:51 am
Jay, how about an in depth article on how that $800,000,000,000 stimulus package is working.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
June 29th, 2011
10:52 am
getalife
June 29th, 2011
10:45 am
It know you told us to shut up, but…..oh nevermind.
“When everybody games the system is time for change.”
And when you’re $14 trillion in debt, it’s time for the spending games to change.
AmVet
June 29th, 2011
10:53 am
Again, (ir)rational, you just could not be more wrong.
Democracies and republics overlap. They are not opposites.
Democracy means rule of the people. The two most common forms of democracy are direct democracy and representative democracy.
What distinguishes a republic is that it has an elected government. Representative democracies are, therefor, a kind of republic.
Self-appointed governments such as monarchies, dictatorships, oligarchies, theocracies and juntas are not republics. However, this still allows for a wide spectrum. The classic is the Roman Republic, in which only a tiny percentage of citizens, members of the nobility, were allowed to vote for the Senators, who made the laws and also acted as Rome’s supreme court. Most people would say that Rome was a Republic, but not a democracy, since it was very close to being an oligarchy, rule by the few.
Read the entire piece (it is short) and I think you’ll have a much better understanding of how your blanket statement based on simplistic, mutually exclusive definitions is not valid.
So please stop with your absolutist definitions…
Joe Mama
June 29th, 2011
10:54 am
(ir)Rational — “Joe – if Sweden is so great, maybe you should move there? I’m not trying to be smart by saying that
Then maybe you would do the courteous thing and apologize for saying it. You’ve normally been polite to me in the past, but that was really a d**k thing to say if you’re trying to have a polite, adult discussion.
“but as I was trying to point out before, Sweden seems to be more the exception than the rule.”
Maybe it’s *Greece* that is the exception.
The point I was trying to make is that ‘nanny states’ are not by definition economic failures. Both you and Leg Lamp seem to have missed that point.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
June 29th, 2011
10:54 am
Left wing management
June 29th, 2011
10:47 am
Oh brother, people who oppose Obama “are also the enemies of the people”? Are you related to Michael Moore or Oliver Stone?
Left wing management
June 29th, 2011
10:54 am
(ir)Rational: “if Sweden is so great, maybe you should move there”
But that’s no fun. Why do that when I can stay here and try to figure out ways to make beads of sweat form on the heads of the Kasichs, the Scott Walker’s, the Rick Scott’s, and so on?
You see, what I’d rather do is STAY HERE and work day and night to MAKE LIFE DIFFICULT for those who would further move us away from the kind of society that places like Sweden have had. I will be a happier person when I can go to be at night knowing that people like the Koch brothers are running smack into brick walls in their efforts to purchase this democracy so that they can have it to dispose of as they see fit, as though God somehow ordained THEM to be the arbiters of the question of what kind of country it should be.
That’s part of what gets me out of bed in the morning.
Mighty Righty
June 29th, 2011
10:55 am
Jay
June 29th, 2011
10:26 am
The tax cuts were supposed to protect AGAINST recessions, remember (ir)Rational.
You cannot try to cite real-world evidence (”tax cuts increased revenue”) and then, when proved wrong, try to claim that real-world evidence doesn’t apply.
Jay, government revenue is down because we are in a recession. Sales taxes are down because we are in a recession. Jay we have at least 20% unemployment which impacts tax revenue. Our economic problems were caused by government not by tax decreases. Barack Obama disagrees with you about taxes. He has reduced taxes three times during is tenure as president. In addition he gave tax credits to people to buy cars. He also gave a meicare rebate to some people. The words of your party and the actions of your president are at odds. You should talk to Obama about his tax policies.
getalife
June 29th, 2011
10:55 am
“I never thought I would say that I wished a Clinton was president,”
He is President of the world.
If you are not blinded by ideology and brainwashed by fox, you would see that Obama is his third term. He is using the same people in his administration.
Even has his own Bosnia.
Eerily similar but don’t think he will have a Monica in his second term.
Joe Mama
June 29th, 2011
10:55 am
RB — “What would you libs tell your kids if they demanded more allowance from you than you made for things you don’t believe they need and they refused to change their own habits to earn their own money?”
Except that this isn’t what’s happening. Democrats have agreed to many spending cuts and have signaled their willingness to do more. Republicans have repeatedly refused to meet them in the middle on revenue increases. So why should Democrats bother trying any more?
AmVet
June 29th, 2011
10:56 am
Oops…
http://www.williampmeyers.org/republic.html
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
June 29th, 2011
10:56 am
getalife
June 29th, 2011
10:50 am
Talk about being pompous or delusional…..
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
June 29th, 2011
10:58 am
getalife
June 29th, 2011
10:55 am
“He is President of the world.”
BAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! So what did he do, take over the “Bilderberg Group”?
willie lynch
June 29th, 2011
10:59 am
thomas
June 29th, 2011
10:33 am
My point is, not all decisions are going to be good. We can look at John McCain’s choice for VP and see that. But when it comes to governing you have to give some to get some that’s politics.
AmVet
June 29th, 2011
10:59 am
Speaking of simplistic explanations:
“Our economic problems were caused by government…”
(AND you are partially correct, Righty.)
ty webb
June 29th, 2011
10:59 am
“That’s part of what gets me out of bed in the morning.”
Who knew that blogging anonymously on a partisan opinion blog at a fledgeling little regional newspaper provided such a podium to fight for truth, justice and the swedish way?
getalife
June 29th, 2011
10:59 am
Leg,
You are one of those cons blinded by ideology and brainwashed by fox I was talking about.
Mr Charlie
June 29th, 2011
10:59 am
Sweden works cause they don’t have victims.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
June 29th, 2011
11:00 am
ty webb
June 29th, 2011
10:59 am
Hilarious!!!
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
June 29th, 2011
11:02 am
getalife
June 29th, 2011
10:59 am
And you’re one of the libs who believes it’s okay to house the fox in the hen house. You, sir, truly need to “getalife”.
Mr Charlie
June 29th, 2011
11:04 am
I do find it funny the people will spend hours discussing this, but any real discuss gets edited out.
(ir)Rational
June 29th, 2011
11:05 am
Joe – I’m not apologizing. It would be cheap and I wouldn’t mean it, as like I said earlier, I put it childishly (which I do apologize for), but I stand by the thought. It isn’t my intention to be rude, but unfortunately it sometimes happens.
The point I was trying to make, which you seemed to have missed is that most of Europe is having to cut their government services, similar to Greece (but not on the same scale admittedly), and aren’t in great shape economically. When you look at Europe as a whole (which I believe I did say in my first post on this topic), Sweden seems to be the exception, and Greece is closer to the rule, but admittedly is a much harsher example than what is generally going on in much of Europe.
getalife – Obama may be using many of the same people as Clinton used, but he isn’t anywhere close to the politician or statesman that Clinton is.
Disgusted
June 29th, 2011
11:06 am
But the FairTax.org would get rid all of the tax loopholes for the rich.
Sure thing! The rich wouldn’t need loopholes, because aside from what’s spent on goods and services, the rich could sock away everything tax-free. Presto—no need for loopholes. The poor and middle class, on the other hand, who must spend just about every penny on goods and services, would pay sales taxes on 100% of income.
I was born at night, but not last night. You and Neal Boring need to go pedal stupid somewhere else.
getalife
June 29th, 2011
11:06 am
Leg,
Not a lib and w is gone.
The President took on your heroes that collapsed the global economy and was labeled anti business with the coc running ads.
When will you get up off your knees for corporate power?
Do you have the guts like our President?
Joe Mama
June 29th, 2011
11:07 am
Mr Charlie — “Sweden works cause they don’t have victims.”
Actually, the articles contained within the blog post I linked to present some very good reasons why Sweden works, but I don’t believe that ‘because they don’t have victims’ was one of the reasons cited anywhere in there.
Couldn’t hurt to read it. Maybe you’ll agree with some or all of it, or maybe you’ll decide it’s all bullpoop. Can’t hurt to read it, though.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
June 29th, 2011
11:07 am
Disgusted
June 29th, 2011
11:06 am
Not a disciple of the fair tax, but are you saying the rich, who Jay claims pays no taxes, would still not pay taxes under the fair tax plan?
Very poor reporting....
June 29th, 2011
11:08 am
Jay, if you are trying to make a point, you would take a couple of minutes off from your obviously left-leaning political stance and report WHY those 3000 “tax units” making over $2M paid no taxes.
I’m sure you’d find that those ‘units’ were actually businesses (LLC’s) that employ other lower income ‘tax units’ or were depreciating capital investments — as opposed to Bank of America which took billons of tax dollars and are yet to actually refinance a home owners who is upside down on their mortgage.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
June 29th, 2011
11:09 am
getalife
June 29th, 2011
11:06 am
Okay, you got me. I have no idea what the heck you’re talking about. Your posts often have static and are hard to decipher, but I do believe this was the worst….
Halftrack
June 29th, 2011
11:12 am
Jay, you forgot to tell us if the whole population was divided into the national debt, each individual would owe the government 45000 + dollars. If the 2 million + tax units above a million dollars paid the debt, they would owe 3.5+ million dollars each. The debt is unsustainable. Do you want the Country to go under for too much spending or because you raise taxes. One is a little slower that the other but the end results is the same; chaos.
Left wing management
June 29th, 2011
11:12 am
Leg lamp: “Oh brother, people who oppose Obama “are also the enemies of the people”? ”
You’re reading things into my statements, Leg, that aren’t there. C’mon brother, a little care in reading there.
I also happen to believe that Obama himself is partly in league with those who are against the people, so why would I ever claim that simply opposing him makes you “against the people” ?
Ty Webb, oh I wouldn’t call it a “fledgling little regional newspaper” exactly.
Bosch
June 29th, 2011
11:13 am
“I should have just figured out a better way to express that thought.”
Gee, ya’ think irRational?
getalife
June 29th, 2011
11:13 am
“getalife – Obama may be using many of the same people as Clinton used, but he isn’t anywhere close to the politician or statesman that Clinton is.”
I will judge him on his accomplishments and consequences of his actions after his second term.
So far, he is doing well with the vast rw conspiracy starting on his first day.
The birth certificate thingie was disgusting but typical con crap.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
June 29th, 2011
11:14 am
Left wing management
June 29th, 2011
11:12 am
You said Obama’s enemies were also enemies of the people. What exactly did I miss in your diatribe?
Poor, Poor, Pitiful Thee
June 29th, 2011
11:14 am
Contrary to what some people apparently believe, items purchased through such programs as WIC are severely restricted. See
http://wic.ga.gov/pdfs/wic/all_vendor/2011%20%20WIC%20Approved%20Foods%20List%20Final%208-12-10.pdf
instead of referencing some other’s opinion blog.
getalife
June 29th, 2011
11:14 am
“Okay, you got me.”
I accept your surrender leg.
Joe Mama
June 29th, 2011
11:15 am
(ir)Rational — “I put it childishly (which I do apologize for), but I stand by the thought”
I appreciate the semi-apology you’ve presented, but I still think it’s a d**k comment to suggest that I should move there. I didn’t present the example of Sweden out of the blue because I admire it or anything; I simply presented it as a very pertinent counter-example to another posters’ comment. That’s all.
“The point I was trying to make, which you seemed to have missed is that most of Europe is having to cut their government services, similar to Greece (but not on the same scale admittedly), and aren’t in great shape economically.”
I don’t think there are more of a handful of nations in that boat that you can credibly compare with Greece. Ireland, Portugal and Spain, probably, but in *none* of those countries have the people reacted like they are in Greece. I’ve got a friend in Spain and he says that people are upset, but that they’re making do and trying to fix things. The Irish, from what I’ve read, are simply bearing up under the adversity as the resilient Irish always do — with fatalistic good humor. I’m afraid I don’t know much about the situation in Portugal, but again, I’m not hearing about *riots* there. Greece seems to be the extreme example, not the mean or median example.
“When you look at Europe as a whole (which I believe I did say in my first post on this topic), Sweden seems to be the exception, and Greece is closer to the rule, but admittedly is a much harsher example than what is generally going on in much of Europe.”
Which is exactly why I pointed Sweden out. The Scandinavian countries have long been recognized as having one of most comprehensive cradle-to-grave social support systems in the free world, and look at Sweden. It’s an excellent counterpoint to the argument that Leg Lamp made (which was what I was responding to in the first place).