The CBO verdict: RyanCare or ‘Mediscare’
Only four Republicans in the House and four in the Senate have voted against adoption of U.S. Rep. Paul Ryan’s plan to end Medicare as we know it and replace with a private voucher plan. Congressional Republican leaders have also made it clear that they will insist on Medicare reform as the price for allowing an increase in the nation’s debt ceiling.
The issue has also had a major impact politically, with public opposition to RyanCare credited with handing an overwhelming Republican district in New York into Democratic hands last month. As a result, GOP leaders are now accusing their Democratic colleagues of using “Mediscare” tactics to exaggerate the impact of Ryan’s plan.
The controversy has led me to re-read the Congressional Budget Office’s analysis of RyanCare and its impact, released in April. The report is based on descriptions of the plan provided to CBO by Ryan and his staff, and was done at Ryan’s request.
A brief bare-bones review before we get started: For those born in 1956 and earlier, RyanCare would change nothing. For those born in 1955 and later, RyanCare replaces Medicare with a government voucher that senior citizens can use to subsidize their purchase of private health insurance plans.
The CBO report is 29 pages, but as it turns out, the agency provided a succinct, if somewhat dense, summation of its major findings in a single paragraph, which I’ve broken into sections and reprinted below. The CBO language is in plain text; my own commentary follows in italics.
Here goes:
“A private health insurance plan covering the standardized benefit would, CBO estimates, be more expensive currently than traditional Medicare. Both administrative costs (including profits) and payment rates to providers are higher for private plans than for Medicare.”
(In other words, because it privatizes coverage, RyanCare would drive total health-care spending on senior citizens considerably higher than it would be under Medicare. As CBO notes, administrative costs are considerably higher in private plans. In addition, because private plans lack the market power of Medicare to control costs, they pay more than Medicare for the same services.
How much would costs rise? By 2022, CBO numbers estimate, the cost of a Medicare-equivalent health insurance plan purchased from a private company for a 65-year-old would be $20,500. If that same coverage were provided through Medicare, total costs would be just $14,500. That’s an extra $6,000 in costs to be paid by the recipient, on top of the $6,500 in out-of-pocket expenses already required under Medicare.
To get some idea of the impact of that additional cost, Social Security predicts that in 2022, SSI recipients aged 65-69 will have a median income of just $34,000 from all sources. Again, that’s the median income. Half will have higher incomes; half will have lower incomes. And again, according to CBO, out-of-pocket health expenses for a 65-year-old under RyanCare in 2022 will total $12,500.
$34,000 – $12,500 = not very much)
“Those higher costs (of private health insurance) would be offset partly but not fully by savings from lower utilization stemming from two sources. First, private health insurers would probably impose greater utilization management than occurs in Medicare.”
(In other words, to borrow the bluntly misleading terminology of the right, “death panels.” Private companies would try to offset their greater administrative costs and other inefficiencies by denying treatment more often.)
“Second, private plans might restrict enrollees’ ability to purchase supplemental insurance plans; enrollees would thus face higher out-of-pocket costs than they do in Medicare, and that increased cost sharing would encourage lower utilization.”
“Lower utilization” means less health care. And as CBO warns, that could have other consequences. For example, “beneficiaries’ greater cost-sensitivity could result in a slower introduction or less frequent use of new, costly, but possibly beneficial, technologies and techniques than would occur under current law. Instead, technological innovation might focus increasingly on cost-saving rather than cost-increasing technologies.”
“On net, for a typical 65-year-old in 2011, CBO estimates that average spending in traditional Medicare will be 89 percent of (that is, 11 percent less than) the spending that would occur if that same package of benefits was purchased from a private insurer.” (see Figure 1 below.)
In more direct English, if Medicare were to be privatized today, costs would immediately jump 11 percent. As Figure 1 from the CBO notes (see below), by 2022, total health insurance costs under RyanCare would be 33 percent higher than under Medicare. By 2030, total health insurance costs would be 40 percent higher than under Medicare. And again, all of that additional cost and then some would come out of the pockets of senior citizens and into the pockets of the insurance industry.
– Jay Bookman
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411 comments Add your comment
Granny Godzilla
June 1st, 2011
10:18 am
Get Real
a chart for you, hope you aren’t color blind
Mary Elizabeth
June 1st, 2011
10:19 am
Recon and others -
Read between the lines. It is the Republicans and their voucher system in Medicare – just like their voucher system for dismantling public education – who are trying to destroy Medicare as we know it. The Ryan plan should not even have the name Medicare associated with it. By 2022, those on Medicare would be paying more than 60% of their own medical expenses. Can you visualize how that will effect one financially with a catastrophic illness on limited retirement income? Most elderly, like my cousin, will just choose to die – perhaps 20 years before they might have with proper medical insurance. Is this the America you want? I don’t.
Normal
June 1st, 2011
10:19 am
Get Real,
Only when The GOP is willing to put everything on the table will I believe they are serious and not ideological.
Joe Mama
June 1st, 2011
10:21 am
Ragnar — “good morning, your fallacy is your assumption that market forces exist now. They don’t. The Ryan plan creates that which does not exist now – true market discipline, across the board.”
I’m afraid I don’t see that at all in the Ryan plan, and I don’t see the distinction you are apparently trying to make.
Perhaps you could explain to me the specific mechanisms that you believe acheive this aim, as well as how they would differ from the mechanisms that have already been in place for yours. I’d also appreciate it if you could show me where those provisions are explained in the Ryan plan.
Bosch
June 1st, 2011
10:21 am
“And what is wrong with taking care of your parents in old age anyway?”
Absolutely nothing — which is why I do it — but I have the luxury of having the space and time and income to do it — which, for many, are not an option.
Most people who do that have to quit their jobs as very old and elderly and infirmed people need 24/7 care — so you either have to do it yourself which means quitting your job, or paying someone to do it — which is VERY expensive.
cosby smith
June 1st, 2011
10:22 am
So we believe the CBO…they have not been correct about anything including their fix of Obama care which they have re – done to include cost out of the universe. If Ryan’s solution is not the answer, then what is as Medicare and Social Security are both broke. It is nice to demogog a proposal to try to fix a broke machine without having to offer another alternative. In the end, the machine stays broke.
J Wellington Wimpy
June 1st, 2011
10:23 am
Ryan is promoting a class system. He’s betting that the older americans (one class), will be appeased with his program because it’s not specifically targeting them; hence his birthday cut off dates. He’s also betting that the younger Americans, especially those 30 and under, with their air of invincibility and the “I’ll think about it later” mentality; won’t pay much attention to the overall blue print of his plan until it’t too late. Hopefully he’s wrong on both counts…….
I will glady pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today……….
Soothsayer
June 1st, 2011
10:23 am
Stealing from Social Security to Pay for Wars and Bailouts
Republicans regard Social Security as an “unfunded liability,” that is, a giveaway that is interfering with our war-making ability.
Alas, Social Security is an unfunded liability, because all the money working people put into it was stolen by Republicans and Democrats in order to pay for wars and bailouts for mega-rich bankers like Goldman Sachs.
What I am about to tell you might come as a shock, but it is the absolute truth, which you can verify for yourself by going online to the government’s annual OASDI and HI reports. According to the official 2010 Social Security reports, between 1984 and 2009 the American people contributed $2 trillion, that is $2,000 billion, more to Social Security and Medicare in payroll taxes than was paid out in benefits.
What happened to the surplus $2,000 billion, or $2,000,000,000,000.00
The government spent it.
Over the past quarter century, $2 trillion in Social Security and Medicare revenues have been used to finance wars and pork-barrel projects of the US government.
Depending on assumptions about population growth, income growth and other factors, Social Security continues to be in the black until after 2025 or 2035 under the “high cost” and “intermediate” assumptions and the current payroll tax rate of 15.3% based on the revenues paid in and the interest on those surplus revenues. Under the low cost scenario, Social Security (OASDI) will have produced surplus revenues of $31.6 trillion by 2085.
AmVet
June 1st, 2011
10:23 am
Brick in the Grand Canyon?
A horrible analogy.
For example, ethanol subsides alone are $6,000,000,000.00 per year.
Overall, the massive amount of corporate welfare amounts to hundreds of billions of dollars every single year.
And Jeff Immelt snuggles up to Obama, awaiting his next hand out…
mmm, mmm, mmm, Barack the Liar Obama - BEND OVER, Here comes the CHANGE!
June 1st, 2011
10:23 am
The part everyone is not talking about, what happens when YOUR Dr. opts out? Hmmmm…..Obama care?
Get Real
June 1st, 2011
10:24 am
Bosch…no doubt, but the money tree is almost bare….lots of new austerity measures happening that have the “womb to tomb” government addicts up in arms. I think the idea is a noble one, it is simply unsustainable and we are seeing that play out in Europe now….
josef nix
June 1st, 2011
10:24 am
DEL
Since you’re here..caught your comment on last night’s thread…would that more could think like you…thanks…
Peadawg
June 1st, 2011
10:24 am
“Only when The GOP is willing to put everything on the table will I believe they are serious and not ideological.” – Same goes for Democrats, Normal.
AmVet
June 1st, 2011
10:25 am
Get, and your grasp on scales of order, facts and analogies is reflective of using the Republican Book of Mathematics…
Mr_B
June 1st, 2011
10:25 am
Recon: Entitlement programs exist because they helped to ameliorate problems that we have already experienced. Medicare is in financial trouble because we as a nation have failed to do things: control the rise in medical spending and to actually pay for what we think we want out of Medicare through adequate funding.
Entitlements do need fixing; no argument. Fixing a flat tire doesn’t involve sending the car to the crusher.
Normal
June 1st, 2011
10:25 am
Peadawg,
Not sure of where you are going with that, but what part of “EVERYTHING” on the table ” don’t you understand?
Get Real
June 1st, 2011
10:26 am
AmVet
Do you prefer a “drop in the ocean”, the meaning is the same…
Get Real
June 1st, 2011
10:27 am
Normal
I agree more things should be on the table from both sides, however the math is still the same. Entitlement reform has got to happen in some shape or fashion as the status quo is simply unsustainable…
Doggone/GA
June 1st, 2011
10:27 am
“but the money tree is almost bare”
No, it isn’t. The money is there – but if you take tax increases OF ANY KIND off the table, then it’s not available to be used. But the time is coming when that option will no longer be tenable (sp?) – we as a people want certain services from our government, and we WILL have to start paying for them. And that means increasing taxes.
Bosch
June 1st, 2011
10:29 am
Get Real,
Personally I feel that the government needs to either piss or get off the pot — they need to pay for all, or pay for none and let the free market actually work. The system we have now is completely stupid.
They need to get out of the healthcare business totally and let the free market work, or they need to be the single payer and regulate the costs. I certainly do not care what they do, but one way needs to happen.
Mary Elizabeth
June 1st, 2011
10:30 am
Bosch @ 10:21
“Most people who do that have to quit their jobs as very old and elderly and infirmed people need 24/7 care — so you either have to do it yourself which means quitting your job, or paying someone to do it — which is VERY expensive.”
———————————————
My mother died with advanced Alzheimer’s. People have no idea what it would be like to care for someone in her condition for 10 years without support. The Republicans would also do away with Medicaid, which provides nursing care for a large number of Americans. Fortunately, my mother did not have to use Medicaid with her nursing care, but she did use Medicare, and it was advantageous when she was hospitalized at various points throughout her long, hard final journey.
John Birch
June 1st, 2011
10:30 am
Sooner or later the entitlement mentality will end and the malthusian doctrine will reinsert itself, hopefully before the mad max style appocalypse. Anyone notice home values down a third since their peak? this is not a temporary phenomenon, it is just a small slice of the future when horribly misdirected lieberalism is in charge. Hopefully, a few good wo/men will come forward and save us from the grannys and getalifes of the world who, unchecked, would rapidly turn the US into a third world nation where everyone shared equally in very, very little.
J Wellington Wimpy
June 1st, 2011
10:32 am
Democrats attempt to scare seniors on the implementation of a voucher system even though it wouldn’t effect anyone over age 55.
Like the republicans
trieddid with “Obamacare”?The scam is that they try to sell government as the solution and paint the private insurance sector as evil.
Your sentence is redundant. Anyone who has had to deal with an ongoing life threatening disease or illness either themselves, family members or loved ones, and had to deal with the insurance sector hassling with them over what they will and won’t cover, crying over being denied needed meds and treatment; already KNOW that the private sector is nothing more than an evil ravenous money hungry beast; sucking the money out of the marrow in our bones.
I would glad pay you Tuesday, for a hamburger today…
BlahBlahBlah
June 1st, 2011
10:32 am
Soothsayer, this is taken directly from page 234 of the 2011 annual report of the medicare board of trustees:
“From the 75-year budget perspective, the present value of the additional resources that would be needed to meet projected expenditures, at current-law levels for the three programs combined, is $33.8 trillion.
These resource needs would be in addition to the payroll taxes, benefit taxes, and premium payments scheduled under current law. As noted, the asset redemptions and SMI general revenue transfers represent formal budget commitments under current law, but no provision exists for covering the HI and OASDI trust fund deficits once assets are exhausted.
As discussed elsewhere in this report, there is a significant likelihood that the projected HI and SMI expenditures are substantially understated as a result of potentially impracticable elements of current law.”
In other words, $33.8 trillion is a lowball figure.
Bosch
June 1st, 2011
10:32 am
“we as a people want certain services from our government, and we WILL have to start paying for them. And that means increasing taxes.”
And it seems that a majority of the people want to keep Medicare and Medicaid. So, if I were in charge, I consider health care and access to it a right of being a citizen in this country, so if I were in charge, everyone would pay into the system in a form of a tax for the sole purpose of health care, and everyone would have it — and I, as king, would set the prices.
Doggone/GA
June 1st, 2011
10:33 am
“Same goes for Democrats”
And they have. Medicare improvements and cost control on the present system, tax increase, cuts in spending – it’s all on the table. It’s the Republicans who want to make it a game of “my way or the highway” We’ll have to wait this game of chicken out to see who caves first.
too little time
June 1st, 2011
10:34 am
If Republicans jam this down our throats the way Dems did Obamacare, I am going to start voting Democrat. The Heritage foundation, clearly a conservative group, has a more equitable plan for those of us who have already paid in huge sums to Medicare, but who will ultimately be hurt by Ryancare. By the time I am 70, I will have paid 91,000 into Medicare… $300,000 if you apply a 3% interest rate over the 50 years that I will have paid it. That would have paid for my health insurance for 15 years… and it is not likely that I would hit 85 years old. None of my parents/grandparents/great grandparents made it past 80. So the Republican plan is to hand me a voucher and free market with no guarantees that I will be able to get or afford coverage. Talk about a goat-screw.
Some people are stupid
June 1st, 2011
10:35 am
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
So who pays most of the cost of medicare advantage.
And by your argument, you should n’t have a problem with obamacare moving money from medicare advantage if you don’t have a problem with Ryans budget moving money from medicare. You are kinda arguing out of both sides of your mouth.
stands for decibels
June 1st, 2011
10:36 am
You are whining about the Ryan plan…. What is your alternative? What plan do you have….
here ya go.
http://cpc.grijalva.house.gov/index.cfm?sectionid=70
You can henceforth cease and desist with that special-ed/short-bus talking point.
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 1st, 2011
10:36 am
Mary Elizabeth,
First of all seniors who opt for Medicare Advantage can choose from a variety of plans that in most cases include a premium they pay along with the monthly Medicare deduction from their Social Security checks. These private insurance plans are far and away superior to standard Medicare only or supplemental plans like what is offered through the AARP. Implying that the federal government foots the whole bill isn’t accurate. The fact is that ObamaCare is removing half a trillion dollars from Medicare to help fund Obamacare. As for cancer I know a little bit about it. Chemo does not cure cancer of the liver. It only prolongs the inevitable. If lesions can’t be surgically excised then the patient is terminal. Typically, the decision to discontinue chemo therapy is the patients decision in concert with their doctors prognosis and has nothing to do with private insurance company decisions.
Granny Godzilla
June 1st, 2011
10:36 am
The Malthusian Doctrine?
(Thanks to Sister Mary John Ellen B.V.M…..)
What’s next a China-like one child policy?
What if the GOP succeeds in eliminating birth control for women?
andygrdzki
June 1st, 2011
10:37 am
ATTENTION LIBBERS:
You are whining about the Ryan plan…. What is your alternative? What plan do you have….
You people complain and do nothing or propose nothing? Let’s see the Democrat fix plan.. What is the plan?
I know play it safe, do nothing, and blame the other guy….. Typical
your plan to fix the problem…. tax the rich, tax corporations,
Oh, the heathcare plan is so great, Harry Reid got a partial exemption for Nevada… ”
The waivers in Pelosi’s district pertained to a different requirement in the health care law dealing with annual benefit limits. The latest set brings the total number of such exemptions since the law’s implementation to 1,372 nationwide. More than 3 million people are enrolled in plans affected by these waivers. WAY to go DEMS…. this plan was so great for the Country………lol..lol..lol…
Joe Mama
June 1st, 2011
10:37 am
Wimpy — “Anyone who has had to deal with an ongoing life threatening disease or illness either themselves, family members or loved ones, and had to deal with the insurance sector hassling with them over what they will and won’t cover, crying over being denied needed meds and treatment; already KNOW that the private sector is nothing more than an evil ravenous money hungry beast; sucking the money out of the marrow in our bones.”
I have dealt with a serious and life-threatening disease myself over the last several years. I can’t speak for anyone else, but my wife and I are thankful and fortunate to have excellent health coverage that did a *far* better job of both covering and paying for my treatment than we had expected.
We’ve compared our coverage (I’m on her employer-sponsored policy) to what we would have had if I’d stayed on my employer’s coverage plan when they cut benefits and coverage a couple of years ago; let’s just say that there’s a good chance I wouldn’t be above ground today if I had stayed put.
Kaiser Permanente FTW.
Doggone/GA
June 1st, 2011
10:37 am
“Anyone notice home values down a third since their peak?”
And as far as I’m concerned they need to come down even further. I’ve been watching homes go up all around me that couldn’t possibly have cost more than maybe MAYBE $80,000 to build be sold for upward of 3 MILLION or even more. When I see older houses sold for several hundred thousand that couldn’t have cost even $20,0000 or $30,000 to build when they were new…something is wrong with what constitutes “VALUE” in the housing market.
godless heathen
June 1st, 2011
10:38 am
Down here in my hood, scamming Medicare is the # 2 employer (right behind dope dealing and just ahead of the sex trade). NTM mention all the the doctors, hospitals, and clinics sucking off the Medicare teat. As long as a you have a program that operates by passing out other peoples’ money, it will not change.
Disgusted
June 1st, 2011
10:38 am
They need to get out of the healthcare business totally and let the free market work, or they need to be the single payer and regulate the costs. I certainly do not care what they do, but one way needs to happen.
Yes, that free market really works in healthcare. That’s why I’m writing a check for $5,600 to a nursing home this month—an increase from the merely $4,200 I’ve been paying as a Medicare co-pay. And once I bring my wife home, I’ll be out of pocket around $1,800 per month to pay for diaper-changing and other services for my disabled wife—that on top of the Medicare premium and the private health insurance premium I’m paying monthly.
This healthcare system is badly broken. We need single payer. And we need to get away from the comfortable feeling that market competition will cure anything about it. You try laying out that kind of money for care for a stroke victim, even though you’re insured by two plans, and see how well you do.
Joe Mama
June 1st, 2011
10:39 am
Andy — “You are whining about the Ryan plan…. What is your alternative? What plan do you have….
You people complain and do nothing or propose nothing? Let’s see the Democrat fix plan.. What is the plan?
I know play it safe, do nothing, and blame the other guy….. Typical”
Um, y’all spent most of 2010 *screaming at us* about the plan we wanted. And it was so gutted that it now bears no resemblance to what we were trying to put in place.
We had a plan, and y’all pitched a fit about it. Now you’re acting like we’ve never put anything on the table.
Typical.
Normal
June 1st, 2011
10:40 am
Get Real,
For what it’s worth, I do see Medicare reform in the future, but I see it in the way it is run, payments made, costs, billing reduced, etc. I do not foresee the necessity for totally eliminating it. It is a good program that could be made leaner to work more effectively.
Bosch
June 1st, 2011
10:40 am
“People have no idea what it would be like to care for someone in her condition for 10 years without support.”
Mary Elizabeth,
Of course they don’t — because most people of means have insurance, but we are seeing more and more without it and as these people get older, and need more help, they will either go without, or be cared for by younger relatives or friends (if they are so lucky to have any willing).
Recon (2nd.and 3rd.)
June 1st, 2011
10:41 am
J. Wimpey, Been there, done that. Your 10:32 statement about private insurance companies is at best an extreme exaggeration.
Peadawg
June 1st, 2011
10:42 am
“Not sure of where you are going with that, but what part of “EVERYTHING” on the table ” don’t you understand?” – All of it actually. It seems the Republicans are for entitlement reform but not defense cuts/tax increase. Democrats are for defense cuts/tax increase but not entitlement reform. If I missed a proposal with regards to the debt ceiling/spending cuts, please let me know.
Bosch
June 1st, 2011
10:42 am
Disgusted,
“Yes, that free market really works in healthcare.”
The system we have is the exact opposite of a “free market” system. The supplier of services and the customer do not set the price. It is done by a third party.
Soothsayer
June 1st, 2011
10:44 am
Blah,Blah,Blah: “Medicare’s HI Trust Fund has a long-range actuarial deficit equal to 0.79 percent of taxable payroll under the intermediate assumptions, larger than the 0.66 percent figure reported last year. HI Trust Fund balances are lower due to higher projected expenditures and lower levels of taxable payroll in 2010 and throughout the projection period. The HI Trust Fund exhaustion date moves closer by five years from 2029 to 2024. Actual HI taxable earnings in 2010 were considerably lower than previously estimated, and the projected level of real (inflation-adjusted) HI taxes remains lower than in last year’s report, although the difference narrows throughout the current decade as the economy recovers from the recent recession.”
http://www.ssa.gov/oact/trsum/index.html
This a less-than-one-percent increase to keep Medicare solvent. Seems like a good deal to me.
John Birch
June 1st, 2011
10:44 am
God has not granted you the best health care in the world for your entire life as some kind of birthright. In reality we are only entitled to whatever healthcare we can afford. If you wish to bankrupt yourself ensuring your terminal aged parent has the highest quality of life possible, that is your right. But you are not entitled to bankrupt me or this country for that desire.
Bosch
June 1st, 2011
10:46 am
Disgusted,
And kudos to you for taking care of your wife — you know how hard it is — do you honestly think any of the wingnuts here would have the fortitude to do so? Do you think their attitude would be so smug if they had to quit their job and do what you do? I certainly don’t.
@@
June 1st, 2011
10:47 am
And they say Democrats haven’t come up with a plan, but yet keep screaming “Obamacare!” — I wonder if they ever tire of talking out two sides of their mouths? That would exhaust me.
Ryan’s is a budget plan. The Democrats haven’t adopted one (a budget) plan.
Doggone/GA
June 1st, 2011
10:49 am
“God has not granted you the best health care in the world for your entire life as some kind of birthright”
God has not granted us ANY rights. And no one has said healthcare is a BIRTHright. We give ourselves rights and those can, and do, change over time. It is now TIME to include affordable healthcare as one of those rights.
Yahtzee
June 1st, 2011
10:51 am
Bosch,
So healthcare is a right? Does that make any form of business a right? Is having internet access a right?
Soothsayer
June 1st, 2011
10:51 am
Jay, this server is about as crazy as I’ve ever seen!
Mr_B
June 1st, 2011
10:51 am
Josef: Good morning sir!
Bosch: Many if not most of the problems we have now with medical costs are the result of the fixation we have with keeping the government out of providing rather than purchising medical services.
Lets educate about a million or so doctors on the government dime, and then pay ‘em about what a high school principal makes. Let them work for the government for about thirty years and then go do their own thing. Get the profit motive out of health care except for cosmetics.
Left wing management
June 1st, 2011
10:52 am
Bosch, Mary Elizabeth: “People have no idea what it would be like to care for someone in her condition for 10 years without support.”
Remember back in the quaint old days when the right wing were actually conservatives, and not movement radicals? Back in those days they actually believed in Edmund Burke’s wisdom that we never know what hardships and troubles will be unleashed by abolishing existing institutions in advance, because those institutions are embedded in the fabric of our culture to the point that they are effectively invisible. SS and Medicare are great examples. This is why social engineering – according to old school conservative thinking – should move very slowly and cautiously, and with a stubborn skepticism about unintended consequences. In a moment of weakness, Newt Gingrich actually paid homage to that old conservative wisdom, exposing his paleo-roots, when he correctly characterized RyanCare as “right wing social engineering”. To think that Gingrich was then lambasted for that remark is an index of the radicalization that has occurred on the right in the past decade.
Bosch
June 1st, 2011
10:53 am
“God has not granted you the best health care in the world for your entire life as some kind of birthright.”
Maybe not God, but our Founding Fathers sure did when they wrote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Mary Elizabeth
June 1st, 2011
10:56 am
Debbie Do Right from earlier -
Rush Limbaugh’s listening base has dropped by 30% according to reports out yesterday; Sean Hannity’s has dropped by more than 20%. Perhaps, many are realizing that those who supposedly are speaking for the American underdog “silent majority” are, in reality, simply using their talents to make millions of dollars for themselves.
Yesterday, on the Ed Show on MSNBC, I learned that Fox News CEO, Roger Ailes, immediately under Rupert Murdock, worked for Richard Nixon in the late 1960s and has had a hard right agenda as his mission since 1968. Fox News, it was stated by that commentator, is not only the “arm” of the Republican party, but perhaps even its “torso.” Evidently, the very talking points given by Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell each day are, also, spoken soon thereafter by Sean Hannity. I have suspected that for years. I am glad some of the stealthiness of what has been going on for 35 years is coming to light, thanks to the undemocratic actions of some hard line Republican governors and Ryan’s Medicare plan to dismantle Medicare, as we know it.
To all working and middle class voters (of all races and ethnic groups, including white Southerners), you have a home, and that home is the Democratic Party. Come back to it and vote your own best interests. Republicans can continue to look after their corporate interests and the pocketbooks of the very wealthy. Democrats need your support.
@@
June 1st, 2011
10:56 am
If wealth brings happiness, then pursue it…don’t look for others to provide it.
Joe Mama
June 1st, 2011
10:58 am
Doggone — “God has not granted us ANY rights. And no one has said healthcare is a BIRTHright. We give ourselves rights and those can, and do, change over time. It is now TIME to include affordable healthcare as one of those rights.”
This.
Common Sense
June 1st, 2011
10:58 am
if the premiums collected do not cover the costs incurred, you are being dishonest if you are calling it insurance.
ATF
June 1st, 2011
10:58 am
What is such a surprise to me is that people think the answer lies in health insurance. All Ryan does is take medicare and turn it over to the health insurance industry. Health insurance has failed, in 50 years of being the gate keeper of the health care industry, to create a system that is accessible and cost effective. The health insurance industry cannot rationalize costs.
We can do better with government run Medicare. But we can do best with a single payor, mandated system of health care. What we can’t do is keep believing that health insurance is the answer.
Get Real
June 1st, 2011
11:01 am
Normal…..I think we both agree that the current state is not gonna get it! How we modify, we may disagree about but we have not gotten to that bridge yet…but we are clearly running out of road..
Joe Mama
June 1st, 2011
11:01 am
Common Sense — “if the premiums collected do not cover the costs incurred, you are being dishonest if you are calling it insurance.”
Given the profits and dividends of the large HMOs and the jumbo salary and benefits packages of their CEOs, I don’t think we have any problem there. It’s a dead cert that they’re pulling in enough cash to pay claims.
Yahtzee
June 1st, 2011
11:01 am
Mary Elizabeth,
Your ignorance blinds you if you think the Democratic Party is clean as a whistle and is “looking out” for your best interest over corporate interests. Look up who the top donors were for political contributions in the last election and I think you’ll see the D’s are actually more influenced than the R’s from corporate interests.
Oh, and if you think that ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, and MSNBC don’t get their talking points from the Administration, then you are living in a fantasy world.
Left wing management
June 1st, 2011
11:02 am
To John Birch: “d has not granted you the best health care in the world for your entire life as some kind of birth”
Well said, Doggone/GA.
Rights are not GIVEN by GOD. They are DEMANDED through social solidarity.
There are no rights in the clouds. Only those that are fought for and defended from attack here on earth. And as it happens, they almost all come from the LEFT.
Eight hour workdays and weekends, child labor laws.
Those laws didn’t come from an old man in the sky, but from the blood and sweat of LEFTISTs in generations past. So you’d do well to pay your respects to those leftists who fought for the rights that YOU now take for granted (and something tells me you benefit from them quite a bit, too).
See?
ty webb
June 1st, 2011
11:05 am
“Yesterday, on the Ed Show on MSNBC, I learned…”
and there’s your sign.
BADA BING
June 1st, 2011
11:06 am
Wednesday ramblings……..Joplin has already begun debris removal. Hey NO, stand back and watch how hard working people rebuild a city.
Doggone/GA
June 1st, 2011
11:06 am
Bosch – “endowed” is not the same thing as “given”!
Benjamin
June 1st, 2011
11:07 am
This is the same CBO that stated that Obama-care would save money.
Not a very reliable source there, Jay
andygrdzki
June 1st, 2011
11:10 am
Joe Mama,,, at 10:39 am… Please tell us what that plan was…. Please give me a link, I would like to read it……
Bosch @ 10:46 am… Every month we send a check to support my mother-in-law’s care….. And for her final days, we built a mother-in-laws suite on the house, with handicapped accessories….. Don’t make generalizations when you don’t have the information…. Oh that’s right, we are from a Red State, we take care of family, we don’t lean on the Govt to do so…….
Did not see any libbers respond to all the heathcare waivers…… Cat got your tongue…… From USA Today; “The biggest single waiver, for 351,000 people, was for the United Federation of Teachers Welfare Fund, a New York union providing coverage for city teachers. The waivers are effective for a year and were granted to insurance plans and companies that showed that employee premiums would rise or that workers would lose coverage without them, Santillo says.”
Go Union…… Yuppers, it is a “Welfare Fund”…….. LOL..LOL..LOL…
Left wing management
June 1st, 2011
11:10 am
ty webb: “Yesterday, on the Ed Show on MSNBC, I learned … / and there’s your sign.”
It’s a sign of objectivity and an honest adherence to truth.
Got a problem with it?
ty webb
June 1st, 2011
11:11 am
“Got a problem with it?’
No, not really. Atleast it gives us all an idea of where this person gets all of their “thoughts” from.
Left wing management
June 1st, 2011
11:12 am
Even the true statements that are said on FOX News are lies. And needless to say the flat out lies and distortions you hear there are lies too. So on balance, FOX is a den of liars. Like a giant tumor in the belly of an empire that’s already tired and strapped for ideas.
MSNBC?
They’re pretty much fair – and balanced.
Bosch
June 1st, 2011
11:14 am
Doggone,
Oh, you know what I mean.
And I also agree with Left wing management — well said.
Andy,
Good for you — I’m glad you could afford to do so — many people can’t.
Granny Godzilla
June 1st, 2011
11:15 am
andy
Did not see any libbers respond to all the heathcare waivers?
we libbers responded to it immediately after Fox News started ginning up this latest Faux Controversy and handily debunked the nonsense
What don’t you have the personal responsibility to keep up?
Bosch
June 1st, 2011
11:16 am
Doggone,
And if you look at the literal meaning of the word “endow” it means to supply income for or establish a fund for a particular reason…so we could argue that if all men are created equal, then all men (and I do include women here too) get sick. And since we are endowed by our Creator (again, one could argue this is the government) to have inalienable rights — life being one of them — that they should provide payment for healthcare.
josef nix
June 1st, 2011
11:16 am
Okey-dokey, going to Sunday School for a minute
G-d created heaven and earth. H- gave man dominion over the earth, said here you go, Bud, make of it what you will and -’ll be watching and making notes…see you on judgment day…
Doggone/GA
June 1st, 2011
11:18 am
“Not a very reliable source there”
Certainly they’re reliable, but you DO have to understand that they do their projections based on the information they are given. They don’t go out and gather that information for themselves. They made projections based on the data that RYAN gave them, and came to the conclusions – based on that information – that Jay outlined.
Normal
June 1st, 2011
11:18 am
Get Real,
I f the debt ceiling is not raised because of the Republicans refusal to move on it unless medicare is cut and taxes aren’t raised…that road will run out a lot sooner than you think…in global proportions.
I don’t think we, as a nation, can get away with telling the world we will no longer be able to pay of debts.
Why The Republican party has this memming-esque stance about Medicare is beyond my brain. NY-26 should have proven to them that they made a big boo boo and regrouped. All President Obama has to do now is say, “No taxes on the table, no Medicare on the table”. Congress has to raise the Debt Ceiling, not the President. The failure to do so will fall on Congress and most especially the House.
You explain it to me. I have no clue.
josef nix
June 1st, 2011
11:19 am
Sooth
The server? Fatwah the b*tch! ‘Bout to wear me out…
Normal
June 1st, 2011
11:20 am
Josef,
@1116,
..and the deaf will not see…or something like that…
BlahBlahBlah
June 1st, 2011
11:24 am
Soothsayer, HI is only one portion of Medicare. You have convienently ignored the rest of it (like SMI) which is where most of the $33 trillion appears to reside.
BlahBlahBlah
June 1st, 2011
11:25 am
Hey Rip-Off, I hear lots of folks like you say stuff like “I paid into it, I deserve it when it’s time to retire.”
OK. I can accept that. But once you’ve gotten out everything you put in (which is what happens quite often) are you OK with getting ZERO for the rest of your life from that moment forward?
Rip-Off
June 1st, 2011
11:25 am
all of that additional cost and then some would come out of the pockets of senior citizens and into the pockets of the insurance industry.
In other words everyone born from 1956 (until another fraudulent scheme is introduced) will be affected by these changes. You can count the Generation Jones’, Generation X and Generation Y to be a part of this rip off. I am a part of Generation Jones and I have worked hard to build up my retirement. I am aware that social security probably will not be available even though I have paid into it since I was 16. Republicans do you have no shame. We (working class) are suffering “enough already”! Democrats had better show their muscles on this one or they will loose even more seats in the House and Senate next election cycle.
godless heathen
June 1st, 2011
11:26 am
So far today we have learned that all conservatives hate their parents and refuse to provide them with basic needs and that all statements on Fox News are lies.
Glad I stopped by.
Joe Mama
June 1st, 2011
11:26 am
Andy — “Joe Mama,,, at 10:39 am… Please tell us what that plan was…. Please give me a link, I would like to read it……”
Oh, you didn’t read it? Then why was everyone on your side so dead-set against it?
That whole ‘nobody’s read that monster of a bill’ argument cuts both ways.
“Did not see any libbers respond to all the heathcare waivers…… Cat got your tongue……”
Nope. We’re all marveling at how *you* haven’t gotten the message yet.
http://assets.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco/blog/2011/05/pelosi-health-waiver-Obamacare.html?page=all
Never let the facts get in the way of a good rant, huh, Andy?
BADA BING
June 1st, 2011
11:27 am
Jay is gone for a while? Hey, Jay’s substitute, he said that we could hold this blog outside today. And, we have a free period to do whatever we want. Honest.
josef nix
June 1st, 2011
11:27 am
Normal
As Granddaddy always said, it’s the blind leading the deaf…
Peadawg
June 1st, 2011
11:29 am
“Certainly they’re reliable, but you DO have to understand that they do their projections based on the information they are given. They don’t go out and gather that information for themselves.”
That’s exactly why the CBO isn’t reliable when it comes to predictions. The data that is given to them may be distorted.
Get Real
June 1st, 2011
11:29 am
Normal
I wish I could explain but I cannot, it is truly a game of chicken at this point and we all stand to lose. The Republicans need to yield a bit more and I would say the democrats do as well. I do believe that we cannot simply have a clean vote on raising the debt ceiling without an agreement on “meaning” spending cuts…promises to do something later will NEVER EVER come to fruition…
Mary Elizabeth
June 1st, 2011
11:31 am
Yahtzee @ 11:01,
I am not blind to the fact that the Democratic Party is not a perfect party. But I do see, unequivocally, that between the two choices I realistically have (Republican or Democratic), that the Democratic Party is more on the side of the average Americans than is the Republican Party.
Don’t kid yourself, anyone. There is no way that the present day Republicans are going to forgo the Ryan Medicare Plan, even if it is a political albatross for them. And the reason? It is now or never for them.
Republicans, I believe, have been setting up this day of reckoning of what type of America we will have into our future since the days of FDR’s when FDR created safety nets for all Americans, and Republicans have, especially, been hot on the pursuit of “every man and woman for him/herself” and “killing the beast of government” since the 1970s. That pursuit has been underwritten financially by well known billionaires and many others of corporate interests – including healthcare corporate interests. Look into who funded the famous “swift boat” ads against John Kerry so that he, (and his Democratic values) never became president.
The 2012 presidential election will be a pivotal one. That is why I lend my voice in support of Barack Obama. It is not simply that I am well attuned to his worldview; it is also because I do not want the type of America that has been stealthily being created since the 1970s to continue into our future. We are better than that. We should be all working together for our common interests not “every man and woman for him/herself.” If America is to be a role model for the world, is that what you want American’s theme song to be? I don’t. I much prefer the theme song of MLKJr, John and Robert Kennedy, and FDR. And yes, Yahtzee, I am aware that Democrats have corporate interests and corporate contributors, too.
However, as Americans all, we have a well-defined philosophical/political choice given us, going into our future as Americans. I am praying that Americans will see through the hidden agendas and slogans of the Republican Party of the past few decades and will choose, instead, to be all that America was designed to be. And that is more than simply a label of Republican or the Democratic Party. However, to me, right now in America’s history, the Democratic Party better carries that banner of goodwill toward all and the inclusiveness that is inherently American, i.e. “We believe that all men are created equal. . .”
Jimmy62
June 1st, 2011
11:31 am
In other words, Jay thinks we should pay for everyone’s health care no matter what even if we don’t have the money to do it. And the only way to do that is to force medical practitioners to work for less money than they would otherwise choose to. That’s enslavement.
You can’t get around it, the only way to provide medical care to everyone who can’t afford it on their own is to virtually enslave doctors, nurses, and providers of medical equipment and drugs. Or steal trillions from people who earned it. And in that case, our society would basically give up any sembleance of protection of private property.
But that’s what Jay wants. Taking care of people who cannot take care of themselves take precedence over private property and freedom. If you’re cool with that, great. I’m not, and neither were the founding fathers, nor all the immigrants who fled from oppressive countries because they heard that in the US if you own something it is yours and the government can’t just seize it at whim. But not in Jay’s America. In Jay’s America your property is only yours as long as Jay and other enlightened folk have decided you can keep it. But if they decide someone else needs it, they are happy to take it, private property laws be damned.
Deny it all you want, but your policies are anti-freedom. You may be cool with that, I am not.
Peadawg
June 1st, 2011
11:33 am
If Ryan doesn’t like the projection, based on the bill he proposed, maybe he needs to give the CBO better numbers to get the projection to come out better. – Fixed it.
Which is what Obama did with his health care bill. If you honestly think that bill saves money, damn you’re gullible.
Doggone/GA
June 1st, 2011
11:33 am
“That’s exactly why the CBO isn’t reliable when it comes to predictions. The data that is given to them may be distorted”
Sure. No argument there. If a someone in Congress wants an accurate projection, they need to provide accurate information. If Ryan doesn’t like the projection, based on the bill he proposed, maybe he needs to rewrite the bill to get the projection to come out better.
Mighy Righty
June 1st, 2011
11:33 am
And the alternative is? The Democrat solution is? Oh that’s right. they don’t a plan. We can argue about a solution, but Medicare is not going to remain as is.
mm
June 1st, 2011
11:35 am
“What I don’t seem to see is any Democrat plan?”
Hey Einstein, it was voted down last week. Close your ears and open your eyes.
Doggone/GA
June 1st, 2011
11:35 am
“Oh that’s right. they don’t a plan”
Already been passed by Congress and signed by the President
Joe Mama
June 1st, 2011
11:37 am
jimmy62 — “You can’t get around it, the only way to provide medical care to everyone who can’t afford it on their own is to virtually enslave doctors, nurses, and providers of medical equipment and drugs. Or steal trillions from people who earned it. And in that case, our society would basically give up any sembleance of protection of private property.”
Yes, because this is EXACTLY how it works in every other country with socialized medicine. The hardworking wealthy of the United Kingdom have been raped and lie bleeding in the street. The German government has directed soldiers of the Bundeswehr to stand over doctors and nurses with whips and truncheons, forcing them to work 20-hour days without even an opportunity to eat a meager meal. So deep is the misery of French medical professionals that most, despondent of ever being free again, soil themselves where they stand.
“Deny it all you want, but your policies are anti-freedom. You may be cool with that, I am not.”
Purple prose much, jimmy?
andygrdzki
June 1st, 2011
11:39 am
Granny: Go to: http://www.hhs.gov/asl/testify/2011/03/t20110315a.html Talks about the waivers…. Look at other sites as well about the number of waivers…. You should keep your eyes open……
Granny, did you see my most,,,, from USA Today, and I quoted it……. So not from Fox….
Doggone/GA
June 1st, 2011
11:41 am
“Talks about the waivers”
How about we talk about TEMPORARY waivers instead? Truth instead of distortion. Try it somtime, you MIGHT actually like it.
Left wing management
June 1st, 2011
11:43 am
Misty Fyed: “What I don’t seem to see is any Democrat plan”
I’m with Nancy Pelosi on this one:
We have a plan. It’s called Medicare.
godless heathen
June 1st, 2011
11:43 am
In other news, the number of limosines in the Federal Government fleet has risen from 238 in FY 2008 to 412 in FY 2010.
Tell me again that Americans need to pay more taxes.
Mary Elizabeth
June 1st, 2011
11:46 am
From the Lawrence O’Donnell’s Show, a video clip entitled “Democracy for Sale” about an organization formed in 1973, called ALEC, for those who missed my first posting of it:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/43070587#43070587
——————————————————————
And, for those who missed the video clip entitled, “The GOP’s War on Medicare,” when I first posted it, see below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgQnhhjou5I
Gone for the afternoon.
Mighy Righty
June 1st, 2011
11:46 am
Left wing management
June 1st, 2011
11:02 am
Today’s subject is Medicare, a George Bush right wing program. By the way, as of this moment, the only reduction in Medicare and Social Security, has been by the current resident in the White House.