Where illegal immigration, business and the law collide
“Look, I’m not a criminal. I don’t go around breaking the law, because for one thing I have way too much to lose. I do everything by the book. But if this law goes into effect, I’m telling you I’m not going to follow it. I’m just not. Because I can’t.”
I was sitting at a restaurant bar, talking to its owner about the potential impact of House Bill 87, the illegal immigration bill. He had contacted me, asking if I wanted to hear “the economic perspective of a small business owner,” with the understanding that he would remain anonymous.
“Some restaurant owners who publicly opposed this bill have received death threats, leading me to want to stay below the radar,” he explained in the email. On that basis, we agreed to meet.
If the law survives legal challenge and goes into effect, the owner said, he would face two choices: He could obey the law, lose a very big chunk of his ktichen staff and be forced out of business; or he could evade the law and save his business.
“I’ve got my future and my family’s future tied up in this,” he said, looking around at the bustling restaurant. “We’re doing good right now, but I’m in debt millions of dollars. And when I made that decision (to borrow the money), I didn’t have any idea that they’d be passing a law like this. My bank didn’t have any idea they’d be passing a law like this.”
“I don’t get it. They talk about jobs jobs jobs. The only two industries generating revenue and jobs for Georgia are hospitality and agriculture. And this is going to ruin them both. And it’s not just my kitchen staff who will lose their jobs. All of my front-of-the house workers [bartenders, waiters, hostesses], they’ll be out of work too. We’ve already lost the construction industry, and now we’re going to lose these too. Nobody I know is considering opening another restaurant in this state.”
In fact, if the construction industry was still booming as it was a few years ago, he said, there’s no way the Legislature would have passed HB 87. Back then, too many politically connected people were making too much money off illegal workers. And the hospitality and agriculture industries just don’t have the clout that developers once wielded.
Right now, he said, he does everything he can to abide by the law. He doesn’t pay anybody off the books, which means that everybody on his staff is paying taxes. “This claim that they don’t pay taxes — I don’t get that,” he says. “Yeah, they may not pay a lot in income taxes, but nobody else in those jobs does either [because they don't make a lot of money]. But they pay sales taxes, property taxes, unemployment taxes, and they’re paying a lot of money into Social Security that they’re never going to get back.”
“See that guy right there,” he said, nodding his head toward a nearby waiter. “He’s been in this country since he was five, when his parents brought him here. He graduated from high school here, and he probably speaks better English than I do. He doesn’t know a damn thing about Mexico. And they want to send him back? Back to what? Have you seen what’s going on in Mexico these days?”
“I’m trying to grow my business; I’m trying to help my people grow and build good lives. I don’t think the politicians know what they’re doing. I just don’t think they’ve thought this through.”
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780 comments Add your comment
Hillbilly Deluxe
May 24th, 2011
1:41 pm
“Look, I’m not a criminal. I don’t go around breaking the law, because for one thing I have way too much to lose. I do everything by the book. But if this law goes into effect, I’m telling you I’m not going to follow it. I’m just not. Because I can’t.”
Back in the day, a lot of my family members made, sold, and hauled, non-tax paid alcohol as a means of survival. They knew that if or when they got caught, they were going to get a stay at the end of McDonough Boulevard or up in Chillicothe, OH. That was part of the deal and it was accepted.
Paul
May 24th, 2011
1:42 pm
AmVet
The only cite I could find for that assertion on LDS Church and charity was a debating Christianity and Religion blog. It was posted without a source. One followup noted LDS tithe and on top of that they donate to welfare fund and other funds.
Seems LDS have their own welfare system. People need help, it’s available. That phrase had a lot of questionable implications, such as ‘direct’ charity. What’s that? and how’s it different from indirect? How did the writer know how much of the donations go to helping others? Like that welfare system? Plus the numbers were based on dollars per member. While looking around the web I found this:
http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Stories/2009/October/23/illegal-immigrants-health-explainer.aspx
Seems the LDS Church has a program whereby they go into these impoverished areas, find a locally run charity that’s working well, then gives them a bunch of bucks to help them expand their programs.
Seems pretty admirable to me.
Themistocles (a.k.a. Left Wing Mgmt)
May 24th, 2011
1:43 pm
Bosch: “…..let’s go to Iowa and tell the folks there we are doing away with ethanol subsidies, then go to New York and tell the Wall Street guys, no more bailouts, and to end it all off — let’s go to Florida and tell the old people no more Medicare…. ”
I think the GOP needs to run Harry Houdini next year, given all the straight-jackets they’ve woven for themselves. Then again, like an incredibly arrogant and brazen gang boss who after a while starts to forget that his luck has limits after all, the GOP’s been able for 2 years now to defy the laws of political gravity. Whether it’s immigration or unemployment or opposing financial reform, they’ve been able to stick their thumbs in the eyes of significant parts of the public and not only have not had to pay a price, but have even gotten stronger. But with the November election sweep, their arrogance might have finally grown beyond its limits. And Medicare might be just what marks the unraveling.
Logical Dude
May 24th, 2011
1:43 pm
Jay: Who said he had one restaurant, Thulsa?
Oooh! Oooh! I know! You spoke with Ted Turner! Ted’s Montana Grill! All them Montana immigrants! They must be stopped and sent back to Montana!
(not intended to be a factual statement)
Thulsa Doom
May 24th, 2011
1:44 pm
Adam,
You need some help with your critical thinking skills sir. Illegal immigration dropped in the 2nd half of the decade due to better enforcement but dropped significantly in the last 3 years due to economic recession. This is what’s called a short term trend Adam. The longer term trend over the last 2-3 decades as I pointed out is that of increased immigration. Does your mind understand the difference between short term trends and long term trends.
But alas this brings us to a major accomplishment of Obama. He has single handedly reduced immigration by making the U.S. economy so bad that they’re not pouring over the border anymore to get jobs because the jobs no longer exist. Where all them jobs at Adam? Where dey at?
Finn McCool
May 24th, 2011
1:44 pm
of course to Thulsa, anyone with hispanic ancestry is an “eeleegul”
Get us some pics and maybe some video, Thulsa. Otherwise, you are just painting an entire race as being “illegal” and “fraudulent”
Jay
May 24th, 2011
1:44 pm
I’ve dealt with some of these earlier in comments, Logical, but let me do it all at once:
What current wages is he paying?
He told me he was paying his kitchen staff $8-15 an hour.
Has he hired ANY documented workers? If so, what percentage of his staff?
He doesn’t know who on his staff is legal and who is not. He is required to get documents from all his workers proving that they are legal, and he has done so, but he knows that a good number of them are probably fraudulent documents. He doesn’t know which are real and which are not. Anti-discrimination laws forbid him from firing those whom he suspects might be illegal, because that would end up with even legal Hispanic-Americans getting fired.
Are documented workers paid the same as undocumented workers? For the same job? Yes. Although again, in most cases he doesn’t know for sure who is or isn’t. All of his workforce is “documented,” meaning they have documents. Whether those documents are valid …? Apparently, there’s a thriving false ID industry in the Buford Highway corridor.
How do his staff fill out the I-9 forms? They fill them out like anybody does, by writing in SSI numbers and everything else. If they know Carlos Gonzalez is legal and has a valid SSI number, they become Carlos Gonzalez and use his number. If a father has a young son born in this country, he will name the son after himself and acquire a valid number and card. Or they just make up names and SSI numbers, knowing that it will take a while for the feds to discover the mismatch and when the feds do, they can just move onto the next employer and false ID.
How would HE solve the problem of illegal immigration? He advocates a path to citizenship. A couple of his top people, he said, were amnestied under Reagan and have become productive citizens with bright futures.
What else was left out of the conversation? I’ll answer any questions I can. I can’t fit the transcript of an hour conversation into a 20-inch column.
Paul
May 24th, 2011
1:44 pm
AmVet
Sorry, wrong link from a wrong tab.
Here it is, “The Gift of Mobility.’
“Eight years ago, Mayerlinth Reyes was holding her infant son at the side of a road when she was struck by a speeding car. Her son sustained massive brain damage, and both of Mayerlinth’s legs had to be amputated. Following her recovery, she received heavy, ill-fitting wooden prosthetics. But last year she heard about Innovación Ortopédica, a prosthetic clinic and partner with Latter Day Saint Charities, where she had the opportunity to receive new prosthetics and a new lease on life.”
http://lds.org/haiti-relief/relief/dr-gift-of-mobility.htm
The video’s pretty incredible.
AmVet
May 24th, 2011
1:45 pm
getalife, funny.
A week ago Saturday, my kiddo and I went to the Braves/Phillies game. He bought the tix and we were in section 405, in the first row. That’s the uppermost deck not too far from being directly behind home plate.
In the eight, Dan Uggla hits a screamer directly up at us. I stretched up as far as I could and got my right hand on it, but it went through my fingers and landed in the lap of a guy two rows behind me.
If I had held on, it would have been a one handed web gem.
But I think I shook up the Phil’s pitcher. On the very next pitch, Uggla took him deep and the Bravos won 3 -2.
Good times at the ball yard…
ty webb
May 24th, 2011
1:47 pm
Adam,
whatever your reason, stick to it. You’re rather good at calling people “racist”.
Culinary School Parent
May 24th, 2011
1:47 pm
Hey all you bosses talking about phones and texting. Grow some. Back when I worked an hourly wage there was a rule about phone calls. You weren’t allowed to get any at work… Certainly it could be a condition of employment. If a manager or owner is managing their workers I can’t imagine the worker would be using a phone all the time when it is against policy. More likely this is yet another excuse to justify hiring desperate low wage workers.
Dave R.
May 24th, 2011
1:47 pm
“This law, like the others in states like Arizona, is a security blanket for some insecure, small- minded, bigots, most of whom are white. The biggest “crime” of these immigrants is not being white or English-speaking.”
Neither are intended to be factual statements.
AmVet
May 24th, 2011
1:48 pm
Paul, thanks.
I’m not necessarily implicating any church for “gaming” that 1894 law, and I’m originally from the state next door, but as they say in Missouri, “Show me.”
It’s easy to make the claim, MUCH more difficult to make a compelling case…
Finn McCool
May 24th, 2011
1:48 pm
What is it with you consevanuts and your obsession with fraud? If you only knew how small a problem it really is.
during college I worked for Barnes and Noble and every day I saw people stealing books – some would even open their backpacks and shove them in – and it made me mad. One day I followed a guy outside and asked for the books back and he handed them back.
The store shrink oficer was po’d – he said “The problem is soooo small there is no reason to put yourself in that kind of situation. It’s going to happen – just let it go and move on.
Several months later one of our employees chased a guy out of the store and got his face smashed in. I told him “Dude, you just gotta let it go.”
Kamchak
May 24th, 2011
1:49 pm
Also, wassup with these bizarre attempts by the desperately ignorant to portray the host as a liar?
And yet they have no qualms about repeating the same tired story about standing in line at the grocery store behind a huge fat black woman talking on her cell phone while her 4-6 kids are hovering around wearing their top-of-the-line Nike shoes and she’s got cases of beer and cartons of cigarettes that she’s paying for with food stamps.
Then they follow her out to the parking lot where she gets into a brand new Lexus/Cadillac/BMW/Mercedes…..
getalife
May 24th, 2011
1:49 pm
AmVet,
I caught a line drive that came right at me and almost broke my hand.
You get on tv when you catch one.
Joe Mama
May 24th, 2011
1:49 pm
Parent — “Grow some.”
I believe it has been established on this thread that one must instead go to a doctor for those.
james
May 24th, 2011
1:50 pm
i love my asian dry cleaner and my hungarian maid. America, truly is a beautiful melting pot. i’d recommend my favorite mexican restaurant, but i’d hate for thulsa to unleash the federales on them.
Thulsa Doom
May 24th, 2011
1:50 pm
Jay
May 24th, 2011
1:28 pm
Well, Thulsa, I know the restaurants, and if you knew them too, you would not believe the estimate is out of line.
Jay,
Fair enough. I can probably guess which restaurant group it is. There’s only a handful of them that I can think of where this could possibly be a true statement. Still find this difficult to believe though- especially given that the particular restaurant groups that I have in mind probably have or have had in years past excellent cash flow and earnings to begin with and wouldn’t seem to need millions of dollars in loans.
Logical Dude
May 24th, 2011
1:51 pm
Hi Jay,
Thanks for posting that since I didn’t get a change to read the entire thread today. It’s a good summary!
From the column, I expected that he absolutely knew who was or wasn’t illegal. (My assumption on that one, not explicit in the column)
He’s NOT part of the problem since he pays decent wages to his staff.
But. . . (and I’m hoping here). . . I don’t think the law will hurt him in the long run, since he should be able to replace his staff with legal workers fairly readily. It would definitely hurt him if suddenly he lost all of his illegals at once in a raid or similar type of circumstance.. (or whoever he suspects are illegals)
Paul
May 24th, 2011
1:52 pm
AmVet
It was interesting to try to run it down. One thing I came away with was they do a huge amount of charity work for people who aren’t members of their faith. People are in need, they help.
There’s a lesson in there somewhere.
DebbieDoRight
May 24th, 2011
1:53 pm
You need some help with your critical thinking skills sir
there’s your sign. In other words, “I got nothing — so I may as well make you look like dumb just for fun”.
Thulsa Doom
May 24th, 2011
1:54 pm
James,
On the contrary. I feel quite comfortable at Mexican restaurants and I speak their language. Do you?
mmm, mmm, mmm, Barack the Liar Obama - BEND OVER, Here comes the CHANGE!
May 24th, 2011
1:57 pm
Raise your damn prices to pay leagals MORE. NO brainer.
Irwin M. Fletcher
May 24th, 2011
2:00 pm
Thulsa Doom – “who used to do all the restaurant jobs, construction jobs, and hospitality jobs before the illegals came?”
No one. You couldn’t eat out or stay in a hotel, and everyone lived in caves. Thank God for the illegal immigrant, do you really want to go back to growing your own food, sleeping outdoors when you have to take a trip and having to defend your cave from roaming wildlife?
I think not!
Bosch
May 24th, 2011
2:02 pm
Kamchak,
Gordon
May 24th, 2011
2:03 pm
I don’t see why it is so difficult to track down who is illegal and who isn’t when the worker supplies SSI information. Businesses should be (maybe they are) forced to turn in information when an employee leaves their employment. That way, if the same number were being used in multiple locations that are not near each other or if the same number were being used in more than 5 jobs within the same area, there is obviously fraud involved. Why does it take weeks to verify SSI information? It should be almost instantaneous.
Thulsa Doom
May 24th, 2011
2:03 pm
Finn McCool
May 24th, 2011
1:44 pm
of course to Thulsa, anyone with hispanic ancestry is an “eeleegul”
Get us some pics and maybe some video, Thulsa. Otherwise, you are just painting an entire race as being “illegal” and “fraudulent”
Finn McCool,
Nope. I just use some common sense. When you have boatloads of people that can’t speak a lick of English it is a fair, reasonable assumption that some of them are illegal. I never said the entire race was “illegal” or “fraudulent”. You did.
And you yourself should step back for a moment and quit being as judgmental as you accuse others of being. I’ve lived in Central America. I was a foreign exchange student after high school living in Guatemala and I’ve traveled extensively in the region, Costa Rica, northern and southern Mexico, Belize, Honduras. That is why I speak Spanish and I actually have very warm feelings towards Hispanics contrary to your judgements.
And in case you missed it I stated early on that I was pro immigration. I believe that we should allow a path to citizenship, especially for children who came here in their early years and know nothing of Mexico for example. I also believe that we should have a pro American policy first in terms of employment, that all illegals except criminals should be documented, and that they should pay a tax or surcharge to offset their costs to our society. That’s all.
Adam
May 24th, 2011
2:05 pm
Thulsa: Does your mind understand the difference between short term trends and long term trends.
Of course. And it also understands the difference between facts/reality and the spin/misdirection that you just did.
But alas this brings us to a major accomplishment of Obama. He has single handedly reduced immigration by making the U.S. economy so bad that they’re not pouring over the border anymore to get jobs because the jobs no longer exist.
Right. Again, the economy, which tanked before Obama was in office, is still all Obama’s fault. Thank you again for reminding me why you are disqualified from rational discussion.
Where all them jobs at Adam? Where dey at?
Ask the people you guys elected into office on November 2010, who ran on that very issue. Not a single jobs bill yet.
Mighy Righty
May 24th, 2011
2:06 pm
Finn McCool
May 24th, 2011
1:48 pm
What is it with you consevanuts and your obsession with fraud? If you only knew how small a problem it really is.
The last politician I heard talking about fraud was Onama. He was convinced that he would peronaly be able to save billions of dollars in fraud thereby making Obamacare free. So far, the billions he was going to save have become trillions more that we are going to pay. But those of you on the left are still sucking the same contaminated BS.
Adam
May 24th, 2011
2:07 pm
DebbieDoRight @ 11:53: Indeed…
Thulsa Doom
May 24th, 2011
2:07 pm
Irwin M. Fletcher
May 24th, 2011
2:00 pm
Thulsa Doom – “who used to do all the restaurant jobs, construction jobs, and hospitality jobs before the illegals came?”
No one. You couldn’t eat out or stay in a hotel, and everyone lived in caves. Thank God for the illegal immigrant, do you really want to go back to growing your own food, sleeping outdoors when you have to take a trip and having to defend your cave from roaming wildlife?
Irwin,
Really Irwin? I must have imagined all those white and black construction workers when I was growing up. All those white and black teenagers and young adults that I grew up with and worked side by side with in my teen years are also a figment of my imagination. They never existed. And all the food that Americans ate that was picked before say 1980- well that food all walked its way into the grocery stores- there were no Americans that ever worked in the fields in years past. That was a figment of everyone’s imagination.
Bosch
May 24th, 2011
2:08 pm
Thank you again for reminding me why you are disqualified from rational discussion.
That’s good. May I use that Adam?
Dave R.
May 24th, 2011
2:08 pm
Just keep nibbling around the edges on this issue, and continue to ignore the disease while simply treating the symptoms.
This all relates to government INACTION at the Federal level, which allows the private sector to act in the case of that inaction, which then causes the states to react to the private sector.
The disease is the Federal government.
Joe Mama
May 24th, 2011
2:09 pm
Mr. Doom — “On the contrary. I feel quite comfortable at Mexican restaurants and I speak their language. Do you?”
I’m comfortable at Japanese and Korean restaurants despite the fact that I only speak about a dozen words of GI Nihonjin and about another dozen words of GI Hangul.
I’m comfortable at Brazilian places despite the fact that Portuguese sounds like slurred Spanish to me and I don’t speak a word of it.
And I’m cool with Mexican, Salvadoran or any place where Spanish is the primary language; my wife’s got us covered.
I don’t feel that I need to be conversant with the language in order to enjoy a culture or that culture’s food. They don’t make you order in Italian when you go to Carrabba’s and you don’t have to speak Spanish at the Taco Veloz drive-through.
But they do tend to say “mahalo” at fast food places in Hawaii.
Adam
May 24th, 2011
2:09 pm
Thulsa: it is a fair, reasonable assumption that some of them are illegal.
Ok, why is this a fair and reasonable assumption? I’m curious. Explain it to me.
????
May 24th, 2011
2:10 pm
when you say give america back to the right owners the AMERICANS are you sure the “americans” are the right owners !!!!???? Look back into history and c whom the real owners are and it’s NOT THE AMERICANS…. BEFORE You COMMENT GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT !!!!! I own a construction bussines I’ve hired black people who complain of being unemployed and the ones (not all) that I have hired won’t comeback because they are lazy… I’ve hired white people un-employed for 2 years and he didn’t wanna get his shoes dirty… I hired “legal” they don’t wanna work … Soo who is going to build your next house??? When 80% of unemployed people would reather get unemployment than work….. Think about it… Most not (all) people un-employed would reather be unemployed and live off the “owners” of america than work….
Adam
May 24th, 2011
2:10 pm
Bosch: I encourage you to read my post <a href="http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2011/05/23/the-year-the-world-changed-and-no-one-noticed/?cp=all#comment-610083"
And you may use any of that you wish. I am daily adding to the list things I keep hearing but forgot.
Goldie
May 24th, 2011
2:10 pm
So what’re the GOP haters gonna do if the Mexicans decide to take back all their land in Texas that was stolen from them at the Alamo? Now there’s some “illegal immigration” for ya — all those white Europeans coming over here with their “manifest destiny” given to them by God herself!
Bosch
May 24th, 2011
2:10 pm
“So far, the billions he was going to save have become trillions more that we are going to pay.”
MIghty,
Wow, your butt must be sore from pulling out something so big.
Tundra Dude
May 24th, 2011
2:10 pm
JB wrote, in part:
and he said that higher wages, and the higher prices he would have to charge as a result, would “break the model” and make his business unprofitable.
I find it difficult to believe the profit margin is solely dependent on low-wage employees.
He says the employees pay taxes. (I suspect) it’s common in these high-turnover businesses for taxes to be withheld, but not paid in. The owner just pockets the $$.
Adam
May 24th, 2011
2:11 pm
Let me try that again…
Bosch: I encourage you to read my post
And you may use any of that you wish. I am daily adding to the list things I keep hearing but forgot.
james
May 24th, 2011
2:12 pm
i think the defeat of the “dream” act by the right is a indication they don’t want immigrants here period.
Jay
May 24th, 2011
2:13 pm
I see, Dave R.
So you believe we need a more aggressive, larger and more intrusive federal government to solve this problem.
Adam
May 24th, 2011
2:13 pm
Ok the link didn’t work EXACTLY the way I wanted, but I’ll take it :p
Joe Mama
May 24th, 2011
2:14 pm
Mr. Doom — “Nope. I just use some common sense. When you have boatloads of people that can’t speak a lick of English it is a fair, reasonable assumption that some of them are illegal.”
That may be, but I believe you asserted that the people you saw *were* illegals. I’d like to know how you *knew* that.
Otherwise, it might be a polite gesture on your part to admit that you only *presumed* that they were illegals.
One more thing; unless you *asked* them if they could speak English, I think it’s an unfair presumption on your part that they *couldn’t* speak English. My great-grandfather spoke nine languages when he immigrated here, but he still preferred Polish at home and among friends, relatives and associates from the old country. He had no problem with English; he just preferred to speak Polski when among his homeys.
Dave R.
May 24th, 2011
2:14 pm
“Ask the people you guys elected into office on November 2010, who ran on that very issue. Not a single jobs bill yet.”
Someone is operating under a misconception that government can actually create long-term, sustainable jobs. Since the failed stimulus has shown that only short-term, debt-producing jobs can be created by government, why would you want to repeat that failure?
They’re 5 months into their majority in the House. I’m still willing to give them time to address the real problem with job creation: their own laws and regulations.
Thulsa Doom
May 24th, 2011
2:15 pm
Finn McCool
May 24th, 2011
1:48 pm
What is it with you consevanuts and your obsession with fraud? If you only knew how small a problem it really is.
Seriously Finn? Really? One of our most expensive gubment programs is Medicare. There are numerous studies that commonly cite 20% minimally of every dollar spent on Medicare goes to waste, fraud, and abuse. Still think fraud is not a problem? Sure. Yeah. Whatever you say.
Medicare Fraud: A $60 Billion Crime
A.G. Holder Tells 60 Minutes More Oversight Is Needed; Scammer Explains How Easy It Is To Steal Millions
In fact, Medicare fraud – estimated now to total about $60 billion a year – has become one of, if not the most profitable, crimes in America.
This story may raise your blood pressure, along with some troubling questions about our government’s ability to manage a medical bureaucracy.
StopMedicareFraud.gov
If you want to find Medicare fraud, the first place you should look is South Florida, where 60 Minutes and correspondent Steve Kroft were told it has pushed aside cocaine as the major criminal enterprise.
It’s a quiet crime – there are no sirens or gunfire. The only victims are the American taxpayers, and they don’t even know they are being ripped off.
FBI Special Agent Brian Waterman, who 60 Minutes rode with for several days, told us the only visible evidence of the crimes are the thousands of tiny clinics and pharmacies that dot the low-rent strip malls.
You don’t even know they’re there because there’s never anyone inside. No doctors, no nurses and no patients.
Logical Dude
May 24th, 2011
2:16 pm
Gordon: Why does it take weeks to verify SSI information?
This is what E-Verify Does. It’s a government thing, so it sometimes takes time. If you’ve dealt with how the government works, you know that molasses is speedy compared to it.
Bosch
May 24th, 2011
2:17 pm
Adam,
I got it — thanks — I too would be wealthy if I had a dollar for everytime I heard those phrases.
Dave R.
May 24th, 2011
2:17 pm
“So you believe we need a more aggressive, larger and more intrusive federal government to solve this problem.”
No, Jay. We just need to re-task the government we have, and let them enforce the laws we have.
Bosch
May 24th, 2011
2:18 pm
“Someone is operating under a misconception that government can actually create long-term, sustainable jobs.”
Only when a Democrat is in the White House — then it’s all their fault if they don’t. Did you not get that memo?
a reader
May 24th, 2011
2:20 pm
i hate it – but we have to start somewhere sometime. this is one time i am glad to see GA GOP actually do something.
Thulsa Doom
May 24th, 2011
2:20 pm
Joe Mama
May 24th, 2011
2:14 pm
Joe Mama,
Sorry but I didn’t take time to take a survey. And as far as there being Spanish only speakers who are fully American I am quite aware of that. I know quite a few Cuban Americans from when I lived in Miami who were Spanish only speakers. You’re not telling me anything I didn’t already know.
Joe, If you don’t believe that there are a good number of illegals in Georgia and in metro Atlanta then quite frankly I don’t know what to tell you. You’ve got your head in the sand. Likewise if you see a good number of Spanish only speakers that are young- its a reasonable assumption that some of them are here illegally. And you don’t need a survey to conclude what is obvious given the numbers of estimated illegals in Atlanta alone.
And when you respond Joe please keep it to 1 or 2 simple points. I’m not going to get into essay long discussions with one person.
thomas
May 24th, 2011
2:21 pm
AmVet
May 24th, 2011
12:21 pm
Sorry so late getting back…
but from most polls i have found it seems that Jews in a large majority follow democrats which would ruin the article of giving only to their church, which was the premise of my post.
Dave R.
May 24th, 2011
2:21 pm
“So what’re the GOP haters gonna do if the Mexicans decide to take back all their land in Texas that was stolen from them at the Alamo?”
Newsflash, Goldie. We took that land in a war. That means it’s ours. If they wish to try to take it back by force, I think there are a whole bunch of people who aren’t even in the military who could beat back that invasion.
Failing that, our military would slaughter them.
Bring it on.
Tundra Dude
May 24th, 2011
2:22 pm
Independent wrote, in part:
But don’t worry about people eating at home, because the chickens, vegetables, and onions they would fix at home also would have doubled in price
Wrong, by a mile! The wages paid to the pickers of veggies are a tiny fraction of the end price.
Example; cucumbers,… retail for 59 cents each. The picker is paid less the 3 pennies per. More info
at U of Iowa article, “How much is that Tomato?”
Dave R.
May 24th, 2011
2:23 pm
“Did you not get that memo?”
I’ve never been good at blindly following instructions, Bosch.
As you may have surmised.
Jack
May 24th, 2011
2:24 pm
Bookman needs to start a restaurant. Try borrowing a million dollars beforehand.
Skeeter from Calhoun
May 24th, 2011
2:25 pm
jes like I axe for a overweight colored couple to fix my collards,butter beans and ribs,
I expect a Mexcan to fix my fageetas and reefer beans.
And i prefer a new illegal in that an americanized Mexcan is probably brainwashed by the feds and is askeart of fat and such.
Thank you and God bless.
AmVet
May 24th, 2011
2:25 pm
thomas, true dat. Just making an observation about mandated religious giving.
Also, I’m still waiting to see if anyone can come up with some actual numbers relevant to this discussion regarding church charity…
jm
May 24th, 2011
2:27 pm
Thulsa 1:24 – that argument of yours is poorly reasoned in my opinion. Lots of people own 20 or more restaurants….
TaxPayer
May 24th, 2011
2:29 pm
Failing that, our military would slaughter them.
Call up the illegal immigrant battalions to handle it.
Adam
May 24th, 2011
2:31 pm
Dave R: Someone is operating under a misconception that government can actually create long-term, sustainable jobs. Since the failed stimulus has shown that only short-term, debt-producing jobs can be created by government, why would you want to repeat that failure?
Still, if that is so, why run on it, win, and then completely ignore the issue like it never happened and your real “mandate” was abortion laws? Very annoying.
They’re 5 months into their majority in the House. I’m still willing to give them time to address the real problem with job creation: their own laws and regulations.
That is an excellent point. I am not sure they are completely up to the task of fixing everything they could though. Aside from potentially being unable to grasp an actual solution, I also don’t think they want to even try. I’m sensing a lot of power hungry nonsense over there on both sides and not a whole lot of legislation for the good of the people.
Steve
May 24th, 2011
2:31 pm
Jay @ 1:44
That contradicts the whole article. If he pays all his employee’s the same whether they are legal or not why would the new law drive him out of business?
I call BS on the owner. He knows he is paying some of his people under the table.
TaxPayer
May 24th, 2011
2:31 pm
If Georgia developers had not made us number one in bank failures that guy might have been able to get a better deal on that million dollar loan and then he could have afforded to pay the $50/hour salary needed to hire a good worker that is here legally.
Irwin M. Fletcher
May 24th, 2011
2:32 pm
Thulsa Doom – “there were no Americans that ever worked in the fields in years past. That was a figment of everyone’s imagination.
”
It must have been, because all I’ve heard since the creation of HB 87 is how America won’t be able to function any longer without the irreplaceable skills of the undocumented worker.
jm
May 24th, 2011
2:32 pm
Steve 2:31 – or he has a good suspicion of who is and is not legal. Like the guy named Tim McFadden that looks like he’s from Guadalajara.
I don’t know what the laws say, but I’d guess if he has a reasonable suspicion the guy isn’t legal, while he can’t fire him, he could report it to INS. (maybe SoCo’s around to enlighten us more)
Thulsa Doom
May 24th, 2011
2:32 pm
Adam,
Where is the Republican House’s jobs bill? Adam your question seems to indicate that the govt creates jobs. It does not. The only thing the govt should do is get the hell out of the way and let the private sector do what it does which is create jobs- much better so than govt can anyway.
Goldie
May 24th, 2011
2:32 pm
“Newsflash, Goldie. We took that land in a war. That means it’s ours.”
Dave R — I’m glad to see you admit that we “took that land”… ideas and circumstances are just simple occurrences in your war-mongering world, yes?
Adam
May 24th, 2011
2:34 pm
Thulsa @ 2:32: You asked me “Where are the jobs” and now you get all uppity when I say Republicans aren’t addressing the problem either. My assumption is not that government creates jobs, and if I believe that all government has to do is get out of the way then where are the Republican job bills that focus on “getting out of the way”? Even the ones that reduce regulations or repeal laws actually have inclusions for more government regulation on something.
LeeH1
May 24th, 2011
2:34 pm
Let’s see: the restaurant owner can keep his costs down in competition with the people who obey the law, because he pays his illegal staff below wage costs. If everyone had to obey the law, he would lose his advantage over the legal restaurant owners.
This scofflaw bum should be thrown out of town. Makes me wonder what other laws, sanitation rules and other food regulations he is avoiding in order to hike his personal profits.
AmVet
May 24th, 2011
2:35 pm
Skeeter, I served with Redneck Convert, I knew Redneck Convert. Redneck Convert was a friend of mine. Skeeter, you’re no Redneck Convert.
Jack, this may help you…
http://tinyurl.com/43u7agg
Jay
May 24th, 2011
2:35 pm
Not in his mind, it doesn’t.
He believes that to get people of comparable quality, he would have to raise wages considerably, and as he put it, that would break his business model and make his business unprofitable. He does not believe he has the pricing power needed to simply raise prices.
Thulsa Doom
May 24th, 2011
2:38 pm
Irwin,
Americans could and would work if they had to take a low paying job while looking for a better paying job in their chosen field. But why should they with what we have set up? If you can make the same amount of money or almost the same sitting on your duff collecting unemployment rather than swallowing your pride and taking an $8/hr job in a restaurant then the inevitable result is what we have. Near 10% unemployment and the idea- partly true- that Americans won’t work these jobs. Take away their unemployment after 99 weeks or much sooner and they will.
Culinary School Parent
May 24th, 2011
2:38 pm
OK so he is paying his Kitchen staff the average amount that a kitchen worker in GA can expect to make, legal or illegal. Kitchen work is not “a job no one else wants.” All the workers in the kitchen are paid as if they are legal. Where is his logic that he suddenly won’t have anybody to fill those jobs specially when you take into account all the restaurants that have closed? Those workers unemployed and more graduating don’t expect to make more than the average. Restaurants are notorious for working someone 30 hrs a week or less so they don’t have to pay overtime, bet most of his workers are part time, so, no overtime and no insurance worries. I don’t see where he has a leg to stand on, he says he pays standard wages for documented workers and theoretically his are. How does he figure he won’t be able to pay the same in the kitchen, he’s paying the going wage.
So, what about those jobs no one wants. The Agriculture Industry better get busy requesting work visas.
thomas
May 24th, 2011
2:38 pm
AmVet
May 24th, 2011
2:25 pm
Don’t know about stats for churchs. Seems kinda hard since there are so many small churches in small towns that do so very much for the people of their community. Much of it is not calculated, such as free daycare or items from a donation food pantry.
There are many churches out there who have a goal to make money for themselves. Those are usually easy to spot.
There are as many if not many more who are truely there to serve the community and its needs.
It was another poster who claimed they were required to give money to the church, I was only defending that accusation.
thomas
May 24th, 2011
2:40 pm
Jay
May 24th, 2011
2:35 pm
Didn’t he have a bad business model then? One that apparently relied on those who are breaking the law to be his servants, I mean his staff.
Why are we playing wooe is me to a guy with an apparent flawed business model?
I thought you were for immigration laws that made it harder for business owners to take advantage of illegal labor?
Thulsa Doom
May 24th, 2011
2:41 pm
ay
May 24th, 2011
2:35 pm
Not in his mind, it doesn’t.
He believes that to get people of comparable quality, he would have to raise wages considerably, and as he put it, that would break his business model and make his business unprofitable. He does not believe he has the pricing power needed to simply raise prices.
Jay,
So can we now expect a column on those greedy, capitalistic business men pigs abusing the system by paying low sweatshop wages to illegals while refusing to pay good wages to honest Americans? This restaurant owner sure sounds like one of those unscrupulous business men that we often read about. Surely you called him out on this?
Joe Mama
May 24th, 2011
2:41 pm
Mr. Doom — “Sorry but I didn’t take time to take a survey.”
Okay, so you admit that you don’t know for a fact that the people you saw were illegosos. I wish you’d been more forthright about that from the outset.
“And as far as there being Spanish only speakers who are fully American I am quite aware of that. I know quite a few Cuban Americans from when I lived in Miami who were Spanish only speakers. You’re not telling me anything I didn’t already know.”
Which, all the more, calls your groundless claim of ‘they were illegals because they didn’t speak English’ into question. If you *knew* all these things already, then I’d think you’d recognize how ludicrous your earlier claim was.
“Joe, If you don’t believe that there are a good number of illegals in Georgia and in metro Atlanta then quite frankly I don’t know what to tell you. You’ve got your head in the sand.”
I have made no assertion to the contrary, your dishonest mischaracterization notwithstanding. YOU asserted that YOU saw illegals who couldn’t speak English using food stamps. Now it has become clear that you have no idea whether they were illegosos or not, or even whether or not they could speak English. So all we’re left with is that you saw some Spanish-speaking folks using their food stamp EBT at a supermarket somewhere, and you presume all sorts of lawbreakin’ based on that.
Call a cop if you’re so upset about it. But stop mischaracterizing what others are saying. That’s dishonest on your part.
“Likewise if you see a good number of Spanish only speakers that are young- its a reasonable assumption that some of them are here illegally.”
Well, you didn’t claim an *assumption.* You said that you *saw* illegals who couldn’t speak English using food stamp benefits. Now it comes out that you don’t know if any of them were illegosos and you don’t know who among them could and couldn’t speak English.
Admit it, Mr. Doom. We can discuss the matter of illegosos being here and what to do about it, but I think you should admit that you made up your earlier charge, or that you (at the very least) embellished your story. You admitted to doing as much on another thread yesterday.
“And you don’t need a survey to conclude what is obvious given the numbers of estimated illegals in Atlanta alone.”
Irrelevant to the charge that YOU made — which was that you saw illegals who couldn’t speak English using food stamp benefits somewhere.
“And when you respond Joe please keep it to 1 or 2 simple points. I’m not going to get into essay long discussions with one person.”
How about this; you attend to your own posting behavior and I’ll attend to mine. Deal?
Hillbilly Deluxe
May 24th, 2011
2:41 pm
“there were no Americans that ever worked in the fields in years past. That was a figment of everyone’s imagination.
You need to sit down and talk to any number of people who live in my neck of the woods.
Mighy Righty
May 24th, 2011
2:41 pm
Every politcian claims that he or she will save millions, billions, trillions or some other amount. If we will just elect them, they will give us a life time of free goodies that will be totally paid for by savings from some fraudulent government program. IT NEVER HAPPENS! Either the politician is a liar, incompetent or both.
Hear about the latest fraud? GAO reported today, Obama gave billions in stimulous money to companies that owed hundreds of millions in back taxes. This money was supposed to be used to help companies hire workers! Well, no. It was used to pay their back taxes! Got that! The government gave money to their friends to pay back the government taxes. Never, has a government been as corrupt.
jm
May 24th, 2011
2:43 pm
Jay 2:35 – then what is happening is he’s paying them gray market wages because his employees know he’ll look the other way. if these people were given legit work visas or citizenship, they’d demand higher wages too.
Round and round we go….
Kamchak
May 24th, 2011
2:45 pm
He believes that to get people of comparable quality, he would have to raise wages considerably, and as he put it, that would break his business model and make his business unprofitable.
He “believes.”
But he doesn’t know until he tries.
Can’t say I have a whole lot of sympathy for a business owner that relies on illegal labor for a business model
Doggone/GA
May 24th, 2011
2:45 pm
“He does not believe he has the pricing power needed to simply raise prices.”
And he may be right. I’m only one person, but when I heard Arbie’s and Wendy’s were raising prices…they went off my dining list. I wonder how many more people did the same?
Dave R.
May 24th, 2011
2:46 pm
“I’m glad to see you admit that we “took that land”… ideas and circumstances are just simple occurrences in your war-mongering world, yes?”
Took? No. Won? Yes.
That’s what happens in wars, dearie.
And as usual, you operate under a misconception that I like, encourage or wish to engage in wars. I am the complete antithesis of your false assumption, Goldie. I have been consistently against Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya since the very beginnings of those conflicts. However, I do not try to rewrite history to suit my deranged notions of what actually happened, as you do.
Texas and Mexico fought. Texas won. Texas joined the U.S. If you don’t like that reality, that is your problem, not mine.
Mexico is free to try to take Texas back any time they want to. A few hundred Texans (I’m sure) are waiting for them to try, and the results will not be the same as at the Alamo this time, Goldie.
AmVet
May 24th, 2011
2:46 pm
thomas, not sure if this will surprise you or not, since I’m a (Fill in a convenient stereotype here).
On this very forum, I have defended the church as the last refuge for the poorest of the poor and a shelter for the defenseless in time of war.
The good they have done throughout human history is inestimable.
Followed closely by the bad!
jm
May 24th, 2011
2:46 pm
Jay, I’m sorry, this is the biggest counter-argument to the restaurant owner’s story.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/food/2011-04-04-mcdonalds-hiring.htm
McDonald’s held a similar event in its Western region last year. More than 60,000 people applied for 13,000 jobs.
-Jay, this guy is feeding you bunk, that he may believe, but it is bunk. There is anything but a labor shortage in this country.
Adam
May 24th, 2011
2:47 pm
Hear about the latest fraud? GAO reported today, Obama gave billions in stimulous money to companies that owed hundreds of millions in back taxes. This money was supposed to be used to help companies hire workers! Well, no. It was used to pay their back taxes! Got that! The government gave money to their friends to pay back the government taxes. Never, has a government been as corrupt.
I like how when a company does something unscrupulous with government funds, it’s the government’s fault for giving them the money. I wonder if you’d have the same view if a company receives most of its money from consumers and then does something unscrupulous with it? All the consumers’ fault for buying something from them? I suppose in the “free market rules all” mindset that sort of makes sense…
Jay
May 24th, 2011
2:48 pm
No Thulsa, I didn’t argue with him. I thought it was interesting to hear his perspective, and once I heard it to share it. I fear that if he’s being honest — and he does seem to know his industry — what’s going to happen is that companies that have kept these workers on the books and with some degree of legal protection will push them deeper underground, creating the very sweatshop conditions you mention.
They’re not going away, not most of them, because no matter what we do to them, it’s better than it would be in Mexico. I’m reminded of the old bollweevil song in that regard.
jm
May 24th, 2011
2:48 pm
Kamchak 2:45 – ugh. I agree.
In the same strange world of oddities. Rush agrees with Jay about lambasting Cain on the “right of return” issue that he didn’t know about.
You know when Rush and Jay are on the same page, the world really must be about to end. Maybe the preacher was just off by a few days.
Adam
May 24th, 2011
2:48 pm
Why is it a fair and reasonable assumption that if you see a bunch of people in Georgia who speak Spanish, look Hispanic, and pay with food stamps that they, or some of them, must be illegal? What is fair and reasonable about making that assumption?
Class?
Anyone?
Bueller?
Thulsa Doom
May 24th, 2011
2:48 pm
Joe Mama,
Sorry Joe but I gave you your chance. I told you that if you want to converse with me to keep it to 1 or 2 points. Instead you want to write another essay with a critique on every little thing. I just don’t have time for you today. If you want you can repost with 1 or 2 points but otherwise I consider your post to be non- responsive.
jm
May 24th, 2011
2:51 pm
Kamchack 2:45 – although of note. The big boys at the banks do this kind of “line crossing” all the time. But that doesn’t make it right. And all those new financial regs and regulators are there to try to stop it.
Hillbilly Deluxe
May 24th, 2011
2:51 pm
Can’t say I have a whole lot of sympathy for a business owner that relies on illegal labor for a business model
I’d have to agree with that.
There is anything but a labor shortage in this country.
I agree with that, too. If there is a shortage, it’s a shortage at the price they want to pay. They want to bypass the free market which many of them claim to believe in wholke-heartedly. They believe in it, mainly when it’s to their advantage. If it works against them, not so much.
Thulsa Doom
May 24th, 2011
2:52 pm
jm’s post at 2:46 pm
I would be curious to see Jay’s response to the post at 2:46 about 60,000 people applying for 13,000 McDonald’s jobs. As of now I think he’s just saying Ouch.
TaxPayer
May 24th, 2011
2:53 pm
Great Opportunity for Couple
1000 Square Feet
Seats 28
Rent $1500 / mo.
Grease Trap (100 Gal.)
Fully Equipped
Great Neighborhood Recognition
Hours: MON-SAT 10 AM – 8 PM
SUN 3 PM – 9 PM
Good Delivery Business
Sales increasing Monthly
Average Monthly Sales $8556.
All I knows is that when I do some very basic number crunching, I wouldn’t want to be in the restaurant business and trying to do anything more than subsist.
Joe Mama
May 24th, 2011
2:55 pm
Mr. Doom — “Sorry Joe but I gave you your chance.”
Well, I and at least one other poster have been giving *you* *your* chance. Please explain how you knew that those folks were:
a) illegosos
b) unable to speak English
I’d love to hear either your explanation or your retraction, Mr. Doom.
“I told you that if you want to converse with me to keep it to 1 or 2 points.”
I am keeping it to a single point — that point being that you quite possibly lied when you made that claim about seeing illegals who couldn’t speak English using food stamps. I’d like to see either your clarification or your retraction, please sir.
“Instead you want to write another essay with a critique on every little thing.”
No, I’m writing a post in which I hold your feet to the fire on your earlier misstatement. You claimed that you saw illegosos who couldn’t speak English using food stamp EBT to purchase groceries. Now it comes out that you don’t know if they were illegal or if they could speak English.
“I just don’t have time for you today.”
Translation: ‘I got busted making a tall tale and I don’t want to admit it.’
“If you want you can repost with 1 or 2 points but otherwise I consider your post to be non- responsive.”
Here are your two points. Please explain how you knew that those folks were:
a) illegosos
b) unable to speak English
Themistocles (a.k.a. Left Wing Mgmt)
May 24th, 2011
2:56 pm
Right wing of today = beastliness
A barbaric yawp that inspires no poets.
Thulsa Doom
May 24th, 2011
2:56 pm
Adam
May 24th, 2011
2:48 pm
Why is it a fair and reasonable assumption that if you see a bunch of people in Georgia who speak Spanish, look Hispanic, and pay with food stamps that they, or some of them, must be illegal? What is fair and reasonable about making that assumption?- Adam
Its called common sense Adam. Especially given that by numerous estimates Georgia has a substantial illegal alien population. And if you’re 20 something years old, living in Atlanta, and you can’t understand a word of the English that the cashier is speaking to you then its a fair bet you didn’t grow up in Atlanta or in U.S. schools which as you can imagine teach English. Is there something especially difficult that you, like Joe mama, have trouble comprehending about this?